Ask a Manager

{ 129 comments… read them below }

1. soitgoes* November 21, 2014 at 12:56 am

   #4 Say, “He’s at another holiday event right now….and actually I have to leave very soon so I can make an appearance there as well.” Lots of people get double-booked during the holiday season. There’s no reason you can’t eat all of the good parts out of the food and then leave early.
   1. GrumpyBoss* November 21, 2014 at 5:16 am

      Why give the excuse? People always feel the need to come up with some elaborate reason. AAM is right – nobody is going to scrutinize that much.

      “He was unable to make it this year” will stop 99% of the questions.
      1. jag* November 21, 2014 at 5:20 am

         Yes.
      2. Sourire* November 21, 2014 at 5:59 am

         Normally I would totally agree. Most people will be satisfied with a “he couldn’t make it” and will probably simply say they are sorry to hear that, jokingly call him lucky or something like that. There really is no need to provide an excuse, and often the more unnecessary/unsolicited details we add, the more it seems like a lie/excuse. When telling the truth, people don’t feel the need to explain/justify things as much.

         However… in this case I like Soitgoes’ excuse because it gives the LW a reason to leave early herself. She mentions she feels obligated to attend, so clearly this is not a party she is looking forward to and a reason to leave early may be appreciated. She does also say she doesn’t want to lie though, in which case simply stating he can’t make it is fine as well.
         1. Not So NewReader* November 21, 2014 at 7:06 am

            These are great suggestions. OP, I think you will find that this is how a lot of people handle a situation like yours. They go with the wildly understated statement “he couldn’t make it” and offer no background as to why “he couldn’t make it”.
            1. Ellie A.* November 21, 2014 at 9:09 am

               Agreed — also, if the OP feels uncomfortable giving a “little white lie,” they can take comfort in the fact that saying “he couldn’t make it” isn’t actually a lie! They don’t need to know the reason he couldn’t make it is because he just didn’t want to.
         2. Artemesia* November 21, 2014 at 10:47 am

            If SHE ‘has to make an appearance’ at this even to of his, why doesn’t HE have to make an appearance at this event of hers? The less said always the better.

            Years ago my brother a moderately big shot in business was honored as man of the year in a major US city; his boss told him he would love to attend the dinner but his brother in law was having ‘important event’ and they needed to attend that. The next time my brother ran into the couple, my SIL said ‘oh how was the X with your brother?’ and got a blank look from the guy’s wife and a blush from the big boss who had obviously made this up because the last thing on earth he wanted to do was attend an honor dinner. He was totally embarrassed. The less said the better. ‘He was so sorry he couldn’t make it.’ or ‘He had a conflict and couldn’t be here.’ is all that needs to be said. Less is less defensive and more believable.
            1. KHB* November 21, 2014 at 11:14 am

               Exactly. If you make up a story about another party – especially one that you say you yourself are going to – people are going to ask about that, just to make friendly conversation. Wouldn’t you do the same, if someone told you about a party they were going to?

               A lot of times people telling lies will instinctively insert more details than they would if they were telling the truth. Because they don’t believe what they’re saying, they’re afraid that no one else will either, so they keep talking and talking in order to “convince” people of their story. But the more details you make up, the more likely you are to get caught.
            2. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 11:54 am

               Not if he’s suddenly on the event committee. ;)

               But….then all of the sudden you’re covering one lie with another.

               “he’s unavailable” said with a smile and then moving on to the next topics is the best course.
      3. soitgoes* November 21, 2014 at 11:58 am

         Because the OP seems like it might help her to have a bit of conversation pre-planned, and because she also might want an excuse to leave early. Some people aren’t able to pull off stuff like, “Oh, he couldn’t make it” or “I must leave now” with aplomb and with no further explanation given.
         1. Fabulously Anonymous* November 21, 2014 at 12:25 pm

            Not to be flip, but if you can’t pull it off then you should practice it until you can. Don’t go the lie route. You will eventually get caught. I’ve seen it happen too many times. Whereas there is nothing wrong with a statement: “he couldn’t make it” followed up with a question that focuses on something else:

            “He couldn’t make it. How long have you been here?”
            “He couldn’t make it. How are you doing?”
            “He couldn’t make it. I love your dress. Is it new?”
            “He couldn’t make it. What do you think of this buffet?”
   2. Lisa* November 21, 2014 at 10:23 am

      My bf hated going for social anxiety reasons. My boss would always try to reschedule so everyone and their sig others could go. Making skipping it impossible. When he absolutely refused to go, I ended up saying ‘yup, we are coming’ and then just made up an emergency why he wasn’t there.
      1. StarHopper* November 21, 2014 at 12:35 pm

         Would a simple “he hates stuff like this” not suffice? My husband is an introvert with a side of aspie, which means he skips 99% of social engagements where he won’t know many people. I’ve always just explained that big groups are not his thing (if pressed beyond “he couldn’t make it”).
         1. Mephyle* November 21, 2014 at 1:05 pm

            For some people, that would be too personal, on both sides. Some partygoers would find it personally offensive that someone else would hate an event that they enjoy (or that someone else could get out of an event that they equally hate but are obliged to attend). On the other side, some people would prefer not to have their personal issues revealed to their partner’s workmates.
         2. Melissa* November 21, 2014 at 7:14 pm

            My husband is also an introvert and often turns down social events, but it was usually pretty awkward for me to explain that to people – they would always say something like “Oh, but we’re fun!” or “Bring him around, he’ll love us!” or give me a weird look as if they were secretly thinking my husband doesn’t care about me or something, lol. I ended up just defaulting to “he couldn’t make it.” Bonus was that my husband was military, so people always assumed he was deployed or an an assignment.
   3. Former Para* November 21, 2014 at 1:17 pm

      Our department head used to have a huge party every February and I went with my husband and children…until the year he crossed over to the dark side. His reviews of the female staff became very sexist and he became a member of The Old Boys Club. When he asked me if he would see my family that year, I said “I can’t go this year.” I’m guessing he thought I had another commitment. What I meant was “I used to think you were a nice guy and now that I see your true colors, I don’t respect you in the slightest.” Too many words, right? Your boyfriend is unable to make it. Leave it at that.
   4. Kyrielle* November 21, 2014 at 3:09 pm

      This. (“He’s not feeling up to it” is also honest, and would be taken to mean he’s sick, but given in advance, people might assume a serious illness, and you don’t want that. On the other hand, if you ever want a last-minute excuse, “not feeling up to it” is a lovely one in its implications – for someone who was expected and cancels at the last minute, a short-term illness will be presumed.)
2. Jeanne* November 21, 2014 at 1:23 am

   #2: You don’t really know if she is being interviewed for the job, just that she applied. I always thought I was supposed to talk to my potential references before I started applying to jobs. I understood you don’t want to be caught saying, “Can you please not call my references yet? I haven’t asked them if they’re willing to talk about me.”

   However, you should be honest with her soon. She might think you only applied because she mentioned the job. Tell her that you had already applied but you were so surprised by her call that you didn’t mention it.
   1. Not So NewReader* November 21, 2014 at 7:10 am

      This. OP, you could say something like, “When you first mentioned it, I was not sure what to do. Ordinary, I would be a reference for you, so I went with that answer. However, I thought about this and I realized that I need to let you know that I have applied also.”

      If she thinks about this for a moment she will realize that you are doing the right thing by going back in on that conversation with her and letting her know the truth.
      1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 9:36 am

         I like this response the best. If she’s a reasonable person (and she should be, otherwise you shouldn’t be giving her references!) she’ll understand that you’re human. If I were on the receiving end, “sorry for the brain freeze!” would feel flippant to me, whereas an explanation that you would normally give me a reference but have thought about it and realize the circumstances are different would
         a) reinforce the fact that you’re comfortable giving a positive reference for me, and
         b) remind me that we’re all human and therefore make me less inclined to believe you just decided to apply for the job after I told you about it.
      2. Vin packer* November 21, 2014 at 10:15 am

         Agree. Though s/he might not even need to be this detailed about the conflicted feelings. Just, “When you first asked, I hadn’t been called for an interview, so I figured they weren’t interested and I was happy to be a reference for you. But now they’ve called me in, so I thought I should let you know,” and then follow up with whether you’re still happy/would prefer not to serve as her reference as a result. Surely a reasonable person would understand that.

         I’m with Chriama that I would find the “brain freeze” bit belittling. But I think #2 can be truthful about the situation without necessarily disclosing all of their vulnerable feelings about the situation.
         1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 11:29 am

            Either one is fine. I understand the hesitation to be vulnerable and I think *any* explanation is better than “whoops, must have slipped my mind!”.
            1. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 11:56 am

               Agreed. And what is wrong with the truth? “I didn’t know if they were going to invite me to interview or not, and I was certainly willing to be a reference if I wasn’t part of the interviewing candidates, so I didn’t mention it to you until I was aware. They are now interviewing me so I think it’s best if I duck out of this one.”
   2. LabTech* November 21, 2014 at 9:50 am

      This is a good point. I regularly would inform my references whenever an application required them upfront, even if there were little to no chance of me actually getting the position. I felt bad for filling their inbox, but didn’t want them to be caught off-guard. (They were so rarely contacted, though, that letting them know that I’m job searching and asking to use them as a reference once is probably what I’d do in the future.)

      Also, if OP2 assumed she didn’t make it to the interview stage by the time she was asked to serve as a reference, she should mention that to her former employee too.
   3. bridget* November 21, 2014 at 11:56 am

      Right – be very clear about the timing. Remember this post, where a candidate asked for a reference and then the reference applied herself? https://www.askamanager.org/2014/01/my-reference-stole-a-job-from-me-applying-for-a-promotion-after-tardiness-troubles-and-more.html. I think the verdict was “reference is a crappy friend.” If you want to preserve the relationship, be clear that you did not just take the request for a reference as a hot tip.

      I also agree that “brain freeze!” isn’t what I would want to hear – it didn’t just slip your mind, you just were unsure of what to do in the moment because you want to be a good reference to her, and took her call to mean that you were not being considered for the job. Giving the backstory here will make her more likely to understand how this came about, and that it didn’t come about through you being untrustworthy or thoughtless.
   4. Mephyle* November 21, 2014 at 1:29 pm

      I took “brain freeze” to mean “I didn’t know what to say [since I’d also applied to the same job]” but it seems by some people’s comments that to them it means “I momentarily forgot [that I’d also applied for the same job]”, in which case, it’s probably an expression to avoid, since it conveys different things to different people.
3. Sourire* November 21, 2014 at 1:42 am

   #2 : Ooof yeah, you’re going to want to clarify this as soon as possible. Even still, she may wonder if you only applied because you thought it was a good opportunity after hearing about it from her. We had a question a while back about a reference “stealing” a job out from under the LW. The LW was pretty upset and I think a lot of the anger was how the reference handled things. If I remember correctly, the reference was very cavalier about the whole thing, particularly about how she announced her new job. If you avoid that behavior and clarify things as quickly as possible hopefully you can salvage the situation.
   1. Sarah* November 21, 2014 at 2:37 pm

      I think this one is pretty easy to handle. OP could just explain how they have here – they had applied for the job before receiving the reference request and had said yes to the request because they didn’t think they were in the running. The employer since invited them to interview which now presents a conflict of interest and put it in the requester’s court fir whether they still want the OP to be the reference. I think I’d explain all this over the phone so they can hear the sincerity.
4. AnonyMouse* November 21, 2014 at 3:23 am

   #2: This isn’t hugely relevant to your situation since the reason you’re hesitant about giving the reference is that you’re applying for the job too, but I do think if that wasn’t the case it might still have been fine to decline to be a reference here. You say you’d give Jane a reference for any other position so you should for this one, but you also say she has no management experience and doesn’t meet many requirements of the job. A lot of people would probably hesitate to give a reference for a job they weren’t sure the applicant could do, and you don’t want to put Jane in a position where the references she lists aren’t solid.

   If you’re still willing to speak positively about most aspects of her work, when she asked you to be a reference you could have said you’d be willing to do it, but wanted to express that since you weren’t familiar with any management experience or skills she had, you were curious about her decision to apply for this particular role. If you were satisfied with how she answered that, you could decide how to proceed from there. I could see giving an otherwise glowing reference that also explained you knew she hadn’t managed before, but you’d seen her take on lots of new challenges and learn quickly on the job when she worked for you so you were confident she could handle it etc etc. I actually had a reference do something like this for me once. It wasn’t about qualifications or experience, but he was concerned that the field of the job wasn’t quite right for me. I explained why I was interested and he said he’d never thought of that before – I ended up getting a great reference from him and getting the job.
   1. MK* November 21, 2014 at 6:54 am

      But I would assume the only reason the OP knows Jane isn’t completely qualified is because they were familiar with the job description through their own application. The average reference will not know enough about the job to have these kind of doubts; I doubt most reference givers will have enough interest or be willing to invest the time to do this. I also doubt that many candidates will be thrilled to go through a mini-interview with their own references when they apply for a job; they already have to convince the hiring manager that they are a good fit, having to sell it to their own references might be seen as condescending interference.

      In any case, it’s not a reference’s job to sell the candidate to the hiring manager, in my opinion. The candidate knows what information the reference has on them (in this case, Jane knows that the OP can’t speak as to her managing skills) and they expect them to give that information to the prospective employer, who in his turn wants to hear about the reference’s experience about working with the candidate; their opinion on how well the candiate would do in other situation may or may not have value, but I think it’s the reference’s role to initiate this. If the candidate wants the reference to speak about more than their own experience, they could go with something like this “I am applying for X job, which isn’t what I did when we worked together, but it ties with Z aspect of that work”; if the hiring manager wants the reference’s opinion on how well the candidate will do at the role, they will ask. But the only case I would consider it appropriate for the reference to interfer on their own would be a mentor situation.
      1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 10:16 am

         I agree with both points. I think AM was pointing out that if you get a request for someone who doesn’t seem qualified for the job they’re applying for (assuming they send you the job description), it is fair to let them know what aspects of their work you can and can’t speak to. However, as a reference it isn’t really your job to play gatekeeper or tell your referencee which jobs they should be applying for (especially since, as the years go by, you probably know less about their career trajectory and overall qualifications).
         1. Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 21, 2014 at 11:02 am

            I once had a reference situation where someone I know, X, forward me an interesting email exchange she’d had with a candidate, Y, who was applying for a job I was hiring for. X used to manage Y, and Y had approached her to ask if she’d recommend her for this new job. X basically said, “I’m curious about what’s drawing you to this role. I think it might be too senior for you and would like to hear your thoughts.” She then shared that, and the person’s response with me, along with a note that basically said, “I think she might not be entirely what you’d look for in this role, so I asked her to pitch me a little.” It also talked about other strong qualities she saw in the person.

            I thought it was an interesting approach and I was impressed with the directness. (X had a strong relationship with the organization I was hiring for — this would have been weird if she didn’t.)
            1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 11:32 am

               If I was Y, I might be upset at basically being told I’m not old enough to sit at the grown-up table, but assuming they had a healthy, open relationship I think in certain situations it makes sense.
               1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 11:35 am

                  To clarify, it might just be the wording of “too senior” that’s throwing me off here. If you think the job requires experience I don’t have (rather than *years* of experience), I would find that to be valuable feedback. And a reference willing to go above by asking me what I think my strengths for this position are (assuming we already have a good relationship and I recognize that this is coming out of a desire to see me succeed) is probably an invaluable mentor already.
               2. Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 21, 2014 at 11:43 am

                  There was more too — she said something like “it looks to me like they’re looking for experience in X. I think you’re capable of doing X, but it looks like they want someone with a lot of experience with X who can speak with a voice of authority on it.” Or something like that. She was right in her assessment, too, actually.
                  1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 11:58 am

                     That’s fair. Again, we would need to have an established mentor relationship for me to not feel belittled, but if it’s a boss I had a good rapport with (as opposed to the supervisor at my part-time job in college), I think it’s great. Especially since she made sure to include the applicant’s strengths in her email to you, I think that’s actually what ‘networking’ is all about.
         2. AnonyMouse* November 21, 2014 at 1:54 pm

            Yep, this is a bit more in line with what I meant. If I got a reference request from someone who I really felt was unqualified for the job (“has no management experience…and doesn’t meet many of the qualifications of the job”), however I happened to know about it, I wouldn’t feel comfortable recommending them unless I had a better understanding of why the role appealed to them. Of course you could also just decline to be a reference for them, sure, but I’m talking about ways you might get around it if you actually wanted to recommend them but couldn’t honestly do it without some reservation.

            I’m also not recommending that references act as “gatekeepers” or anything like that, but the OP said she hired this person for their first job out of college. I think around that point in your career, if you’re asking someone to recommend you for management positions, it’s not wildly out of the ordinary to hear some questions on why you think they’d be a good fit. Really I don’t mean in the sense of a mini interview or anything like that, but if you’re asking someone to be a reference for you I think you should be willing to answer a question or two about the role.
   2. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 12:03 pm

      ” I could see giving an otherwise glowing reference that also explained you knew she hadn’t managed before” How do you know that she doesn’t currently have a part time job or volunteer experience managing that wasn’t listed on her previous resume? I think the point of references is to show support for what you do know, not pointing out what you don’t. Because you could be wrong.
      1. AnonyMouse* November 21, 2014 at 1:46 pm

         I’m taking the OP at her word when she says “Jane has no management experience”, but that’s part of why I said if someone wanted to do this kind of thing it would be smart to ask why they thought the role would be a good fit. If the applicant talked about some other management experience, of course you wouldn’t insist she didn’t have any. It sounds like this is a pretty junior level person – I’m really talking about ways you might be able to still pull off giving a reference to someone when you truly do know they don’t have the experience required.
      2. fposte* November 21, 2014 at 2:29 pm

         It’s not that binary. I get asked about a bunch of stuff in a good reference call, and the ensuing discussion is usually more nuanced than that. I would also, when calling for references, assume that an employer who said “She doesn’t have any management experience” was talking about her work there anyway, rather than swearing to every detail of the applicant’s life.
   3. Jeanne* November 21, 2014 at 2:11 pm

      I don’t think a reference is required to say why the applicant will be good at the new job or not. A reference is to say “I worked with her for two years. She was great at doing these things at our work.” A reference should never say what the person will do in the future.
5. SJP* November 21, 2014 at 4:45 am

   OP1 – Yea i’m not surprised your angry about this, I would be too!. It shows a complete lack of awareness for confidential information and frankly, to me, she looks like a complete madam having a tantrum.

   I’d be careful what you share with her in the future because obviously she cannot keep these things, or her tantrums/anger under wraps.

   I used to be an office manager and this really frickin’ annoys me! Urgh
   1. Not So NewReader* November 21, 2014 at 7:16 am

      I don’t think she is ready to be an office manager, yet. Basics aren’t in place, such as her emotions are not under control. This is the work place. Sometimes we encounter stuff that really ticks us off. That does not give us the right to go set someone’s computer on fire. Sure, there’s times where we might muse over, “I could get even by doing X or Y” but we don’t actually do it. The thought is more of a stress relief than an actual idea we’d use. Our professionalism kicks in and we look for ways to handle the problem within the boundaries of being professional.
      1. SJP* November 21, 2014 at 9:23 am

         Yea exactly, being in Admin,secretary/PA/office management we’re in a position where people get grouchy cause we don’t always let people do what they want, but yea, as you say we wannt do something but our professionalism kicks in before we do!
         It’s a really big red flag that she does that and another red flag that the owner seems so not bothered by it!
         1. Chinook* November 21, 2014 at 10:57 am

            “and another red flag that the owner seems so not bothered by it!”

            Do we know that the owner isn’t bothered by it or just that the owner hasn’t mentioned his issue with the OP. Even a bad Office Manager deserves to be punished in private. We don’t know that the owner didn’t rake the new office manager over the coals for violating an important confidentiality rule and that he hasn’t told her that the next mistake will have her out the door.
            1. SJP* November 21, 2014 at 11:19 am

               Fair point although the OP wrote ” I really do not think the owner is going to do anything about it.” so currently at the time of writing it didn’t look or seem like the owner had reprimanded the office manager… You can usually tell if someone has had a talking to/bollocking
               Although that could have changed now, but if the owner didn’t do anything about it then that is the red flag I mean
6. jag* November 21, 2014 at 5:19 am

   AAM – regarding #4 I think you need a whole post on how to respond evasively but truly and politely to questions. And even on how to determine what to reveal and what not to reveal.

   To some of us it seems really easy to do, but I see repeatedly here people flustered by this challenge.
   1. Not So NewReader* November 21, 2014 at 7:25 am

      “How to handle commonly asked questions that you don’t want to answer.”

      I know I feel that I can handle the “curve ball” questions that come at me. But there are times when I have been totally caught off guard by a question I never even thought of.
      Eh, if you don’t see people around you role modeling what to do, how do you learn this stuff? I guess by watching someone do it wrong and having it blow up in their face. I grew up in a home where there was little to no discussion of how to handle work place problems. It’s not a big leap for me to understand that others had a similar experience. What has been enlightening from reading here, is that there are a LOT of other people who did not have those discussions at home, either.
      1. jag* November 21, 2014 at 12:53 pm

         “But there are times when I have been totally caught off guard by a question I never even thought of.”
         There’s a skill to giving a non-answer until you can figure out what to say, if anything. “Let me think about it” and asking a question to the questioner are two key approaches.

         And more broadly, I think people here would do well with thinking more strategically about how they communicate. One key rule: you don’t have to answer every question that is asked of you by a co-worker or random people. You can often answer a different question and satisfy or distract them. Maybe you don’t even have to answer any questions at all.

         “if you don’t see people around you role modeling what to do, how do you learn this stuff?”
         Ask a Manager, I hope :-)
   2. SH* November 21, 2014 at 9:21 am

      I agree! I’ve worked with people who didn’t stop when I was clearly uncomfortable with personal conversations or even when I was evading certain things.
   3. HR Manager* November 21, 2014 at 9:32 am

      I think the OP #4 could even be fairly honest and say “It’s not his thing. I’ve dragged him to this for a number of years, and I let him off for good behavior this year.” No need to get into the reason, why he dislikes these parties. I know a lot of people who do not like these type of company social events, even if the company thinks they’re awesome.
      1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 9:40 am

         In a tense social situation, I think you want to be as neutral as possible. The underlying emotions could make a statement like that inadvertently offensive (what, our company is so terrible that you have to *draf* your bf out to us?). It’s not that I have anything against honesty, but I think the OP just wants to remain as low-key as possible. “He had a committment he couldn’t get out of” is least likely to offend, I think.
         1. HR Manager* November 21, 2014 at 10:40 am

            I didn’t read that there was any tension in the social situation for the party from the post. Sounded like the OP was just anxious if anyone would wonder why he didn’t come this year. When coworkers have shared why their SO isn’t with them at our gatherings, being told s/he isn’t interested hasn’t cause personal offense with anyone in the office.

            Now if she hates her work because all her coworkers are nosy and up into her personal business, and will take this sort of remark personally, then that would be a different story.
            1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 11:40 am

               In this case OP says the people at her job don’t treat her well. It probably comes across in her body language and I’d be surprised if there isn’t an undercurrent of tension in the workplace overall. In a situation like that, I think less information is better.
         2. Persephone Mulberry* November 21, 2014 at 10:41 am

            I think it’s a case-by-case basis. Someone you’re more friendly with, you can get away with a joking approach like the above. If it’s someone you think might be offended that the BF didn’t want to attend (for ANY reason), you go more neutral.
   4. summercamper* November 21, 2014 at 10:12 am

      I’d also love to see a post-holiday thread where we can all tell our holiday party horror stories. This year’s staff Christmas party committee was disbanded by our executive director, who is now insisting on a Greek-themed gala, complete with traditional Greek dancing (he’s bringing in an instructor and expecting everyone to participate). I’ve even heard wind of togas. And no, this isn’t some tech startup – this is a super-conservative religious charity. I’m sure I’ll have a story to tell when it’s all over, and others will too!
      1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 10:20 am

         I’d like to hear about holiday party *planning* stories. I’m in a situation now where I’m planning a party that I would be disappointed to attend, but I don’t feel comfortable speaking up at the committee meetings. I think It’ll turn out to be a mediocre event (so, not terrible), but I’m kind of bummed just thinking about it. Sometimes it’s not nice to be on the other side.
         1. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 1:21 pm

            I would also like to read that article (and contribute to it, ugh were there some terrible parties in my experience — even those that I planned!).
      2. Chinook* November 21, 2014 at 11:00 am

         “this is a super-conservative religious charity. ”

         Is your religious charity involved with a Christian charity or with another faith? If it is the latter, it makes sense to do something unChristmas-like for a party but, it is a Christian charity, I would be wondering what the heck he is thinking (unless you guys are something like Greek Orthodox).
         1. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 1:20 pm

            Ha, I should have read your comment first.
      3. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 1:20 pm

         Is everybody orthodox? If not, I would be pretty upset if I was on that disbanded committee that I was usurped so that I could reenact My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

         “Ooooh, it’s a CEEEECK.” haha awesome scene.
7. GrumpyBoss* November 21, 2014 at 5:23 am

   #1: this is an invasion of privacy and I’d be really angry as well. But why are you asking if there is a law about this? Your recourse is obvious – speak to the owner and explain that there was a transgression that has made you feel uncomfortable. Even if it was illegal, it doesn’t change the fact that the conversation with the owner is the first thing you need to do. If the owner doesn’t want to address the issue, do you want to continue working in an environment where your privacy is disregarded?
   1. AdAgencyChick* November 21, 2014 at 6:37 am

      Well…can the owner do anything about it? I ask because isn’t discussing salary a topic that’s protected by law, and therefore the owner can’t really do anything about the disclosure? Although I don’t know how the law applies to discussing salaries of other employees at the same company.

      I’m curious: Has the law changed, or been enforced differently, about discussing salary in the past few years? Because I remember when I started working, the employee handbooks at my first two or three jobs included a statement that salaries were to be kept confidential. Then in the last three years, I’ve looked for that statement in two different employee handbooks and it hasn’t been there. At my current job, it’s not there — I had worked for this company previously and I could swear that statement was in the handbook six or seven years ago. So I’m curious whether I’m just imagining things, or whether there really has been a change in the law.
      1. MK* November 21, 2014 at 7:00 am

         I am not familiar with american law, but I would think “discussing salary” as a protected right applies to employees talking amongst themselves about their compensation, people gossiping about their coworker’s wages, especially during a temper tantrum. Anyway, the owner doesn’t have to ban all talk of salaries; they should reprimand the coworker for revealing this information without the OP’s knowledge and approval and for doing so in a spirit of revenge.
         1. Elysian* November 21, 2014 at 7:40 am

            Exactly. US laws protects discussing salary among coworkers because you’re discussing your working conditions, it doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t!) protect a coworker who found out your salary by virtue of her position and then gets mad at you and blabs all around the office. If the boss wants people who are in charge of book-keeping or payroll to keep salaries confidential, that’s a-ok, and he should discipline the people who can’t keep private information private.
            1. Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 21, 2014 at 11:05 am

               That’s exactly right.
         2. BRR* November 21, 2014 at 7:40 am

            I was thinking the same thing. It’s illegal to bar discussing your salary with coworkers. I’m not sure it’s illegal to bar people from discussing other people’s salaries.
      2. Not So NewReader* November 21, 2014 at 7:32 am

         What can the owner do? How about writing her up for violating company policy? Or he could remind her that she is on a probationary period and any such outburst of retaliation again will be important in the consideration of making her permanent.
         Or he could decide to tell her that this was a huge misstep on her part and he will be looking for someone else to manage for him.

         She has demonstrated that she clearly does not understand her job and what is expected out of her.
         People are usually on their best behavior when they start a job. If this is her best behavior, I don’t want to see what her regular behavior is.
         1. JMegan* November 21, 2014 at 10:08 am

            This would be my thought as well. Disclosing someone else’s salary is a pretty serious breach of privacy, and having a temper tantrum in the office is a pretty serious breach of professionalism. If I were the boss, I would be coming down pretty hard on the office manager, and letting her know that this behaviour is not acceptable. I don’t know if I would fire her for this one incident, but I would definitely let her know that it was a possibility, and that she better not do anything like that again.

            To the OP – no, I don’t believe what she did is illegal. It’s certainly unethical, and unprofessional, but probably not illegal. I can’t tell from your letter, have you actually talked to the owner about this? Because that should be your first step. And if he doesn’t deal with it appropriately, then you might need to do some thinking about whether this is the right job for you.
         2. Jeanne* November 21, 2014 at 2:13 pm

            This. The owner has lots of options even if the salary talk wasn’t illegal. There are many responses to behavior the owner does not like.
         3. catsAreCool* November 21, 2014 at 10:17 pm

            “If this is her best behavior, I don’t want to see what her regular behavior is.”

            This!
      3. Natalie* November 21, 2014 at 9:45 am

         The underlying law hasn’t changed much since the 30s, so if companies are changing practice in this area it’s likely related to a significant case.
      4. Sharon* November 21, 2014 at 10:17 am

         I think the distinction that applies to the law is that you can discuss YOUR salary with others.

         But setting aside the law, all I really know is ethics and professionalism, and those clearly define that you do NOT reveal private information you learn in your job. In my IT career, I’ve seen all kinds of company financial data, customer lists, and even coworker salaries. You simply do NOT discuss any of these things with anyone who does not have a need to know them related to completing a required work task. I agree with Alison that the OP should take this to the company owner as a serious issue. However, I wouldn’t frame it quite the same, Alison’s suggested wording sounds too much like a personal issue (she revealed my salary). I would frame it less personally and more professionally, i.e. the office manager revealed salaries of several employees. Depending on the relationship between her and the owner and the owner’s personality, I may also reiterate the importance of professionalism and discretion for that office manager job, implying that the person did not demonstrate those important qualifications for the job.
         1. Chinook* November 21, 2014 at 11:05 am

            I agree that not discussing other people’s salary ino that you know of because of your job is highly unethical and unprofessional. I was an HR and Finance assistant and was tasked with compiling for everyone how they were compensated (salary, benefits, vacation days, etc) to show how much the company spends on each of them and send to each staff memeber their personal information. If anyone had heard that Suzy in IT or Sharon in Certification earns so much (even if I don’t imply she doesn’t deserve it), not only would I have been justifiably fired but I doubt I could have ever gotten another job with my temp agency or within any field they are related to again because people would rightly wonder what other confidential information I couldn’t be trusted with.
      5. Artemesia* November 21, 2014 at 10:53 am

         She wasn’t ‘discussing salary’ i.e. disclosing her own salary or asking about other people’s. She was instead using her access to distribute private information about other people in retaliation for being ticked off. This is a firing offense. IMHO mistakes should not be heavily penalized, but vicious behavior like this should result in firing or at least in this case, removing her from access by rescinding the idea of cross training her as office manager.
   2. littlemoose* November 21, 2014 at 9:25 am

      There actually is a law about this, but I don’t think it’s quite what the OP thought it might be. The National Labor Relations Act protects employees’ right to discuss their pay and other working conditions, ie., your employer cannot prohibit employees from discussing salary and other benefits in most situations. The always excellent Donna Ballman addresses it here: http://employeeatty.blogspot.com/2013/02/you-have-right-to-discuss-salary-with.html?m=1
      1. Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 21, 2014 at 11:07 am

         Yes — you have the right to discuss your own salary with your coworkers. But an employer can absolutely ban you from disclosing other people’s salaries without their permission, which is very common in jobs that give you access to other people’s salary info.
         1. catsAreCool* November 21, 2014 at 10:19 pm

            Which makes sense, since most of us prefer to decide whether or not to disclose our own salary.
   3. Confidential* November 21, 2014 at 9:28 am

      I’m also wondering why OP thinks the owner won’t do anything about it when it’s clear she/he wants salary kept confidential?
      1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 9:52 am

         I could see a small business owner thinking it’s not a big deal, especially if they’re busy with managing clients/suppliers and expect their staff to “act like adults” and sort things out amongst themselves. I think the key to looking like the mature person in this scenario is for the OP to focus less on the fact that their salary was shared, and more on the idea that they have concerns about someone with this judgement is in a position to view confidential information. It makes it less personal, less emotional and less “whiny” in my opinion.
   4. Zahra* November 21, 2014 at 9:50 am

      Yup, it’s a transgression, but I wanted to add that, indeed, the law actually forbids an employer to tell you to keep your salary confidential (and I thought Alison would have mentioned it!). Now, revealing your coworkers’ salary might very well be illegal and it’s, at the very minimum, a huge breach of trust that would make me think that this person cannot be your backup.
      1. Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 21, 2014 at 11:08 am

         See above :)
      2. jag* November 21, 2014 at 1:23 pm

         “the law actually forbids an employer to tell you to keep your salary confidential”

         No way is this true in the US.
         1. Ask a Manager* Post authorNovember 21, 2014 at 1:41 pm

            No, it’s true. The National Labor Relations Act prevents employers from doing this for most employees (some managers are exempt from the law). It’s a commonly violated law though. More here:
            https://www.askamanager.org/2012/01/can-an-employer-require-you-to-keep-your-salary-confidential.html
            1. jag* November 21, 2014 at 3:58 pm

               Excuse me, I meant no way can an employer stop you from sharing your own salary info.
   5. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 12:09 pm

      And mentioning that you no longer feel comfortable giving her ANY confidential information goes a long way. If the owner still doesn’t care that the friggin’ BOOKKEEPER, who knows all, doesn’t trust the office manager, then the bookkeeper needs to find a new gig.
8. Chinook* November 21, 2014 at 8:02 am

   #3 – the supervisor at my first temp job gave me a simialir compliment – she said I was great and would hire me for the position I was covering (receptionist) but she couldn’t afford to buy out my contract (as it wasn’t temp to hire). Not only did I take it as the compliment it was, but I learned the downside of temping in general and earned myself a wonderful reference.
9. AvonLady Barksdale* November 21, 2014 at 8:21 am

   #3– You did a good thing and paid someone a compliment. If you think someone is really stellar, telling them you’ll vouch for them is always the right thing to do. Most people understand this is not a guarantee but they usually appreciate the support, especially if they’re temping and looking for full-time work. If you think your temp is great and you’d be willing to be a reference, tell her that too!

   I hate it when people are so touchy (your co-worker, OP, not you!) about a whiff of impropriety that they completely shut down.
   1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 9:42 am

      I think the risk the coworker noted was that a statement like that might unwittingly get the temp’s hopes up. Going back to clarify that it was a compliment rather than a promise was good on OP’s part, and I think it’s fine to compliment someone as long as you do it in a way that doesn’t give guarantees that you aren’t entitled to give.
      1. Cheesecake* November 21, 2014 at 10:01 am

         I agree completely. One thing to do is to compliment and acknowledge great work. But the moment you mention anything about permanent job/place in the team etc – person can interpret it as “i might stay here after all!”, consciously or not. So i’d steer clear from saying “you’d be good addition to our team”
      2. QK* November 21, 2014 at 11:05 am

         Right. OP #3, I think the nuance here depends on whether you are above this co-worker in your office’s reporting structure. If so, then your compliment might make some people think you were saying you’d actively try to get them the job. (Saavy temps may realize that’s not how you mean it, but why take that risk?) If you’re a peer to said co-worker, then the risk of misunderstanding is much lower.

         Either way though, I’d hardly call such a mistake “unprofessional”. Seems more like an honest flub to me. Next time just try to hit more of a “I think you’re great!” tone instead of a “I think you should definitely work here!” tone. (Which, maybe you already did, it was tough to tell from your letter.)
         1. Chinook* November 21, 2014 at 11:08 am

            If OP #3 wanted to give a similair compliment to the temp that wasn’t as nuanced (and thus open to misinterpretation), she could offer to be a reference for her. This is hugely important as a temp because she may be applying for non-agency jobs and unable to use the agency as a reference without risking them swooping in for a commission (despite the temp being the one who did teh research and applied).
            1. Op3* November 22, 2014 at 6:15 am

               Thanks everyone for your comments.

               I think I did flub because I spoke about a particular part of our team responsibilities and asked whether she would be interested in something like that because I think she’d be good at it.

               I’m glad I clarified that there actually isn’t a position because I wouldn’t want her staying here just for the possibility when she could be getting a great permanent position elsewhere.
10. rek* November 21, 2014 at 9:16 am

    #1 – I would be more concerned with the office manager’s inability to keep confidential information confidential, and that would be the focus of my conversation with the owner. I admit, I would have been annoyed about the salary disclosure when I worked in the private sector. I work for a branch of state government now, and my yearly income is available for anyone with an internet connection who cares to look, so I’ve become much less sensitive about people knowing the actual numbers. But, at least those money numbers are available for *everyone*, not just the ones with whom the manager is angry. (Feels more fair, somehow.)
    1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 9:45 am

       I agree that the issue isn’t *what* was shared, but rather the fact that it *was* shared. Personal information needs to be kept personal. What if the employee vented to someone who used that information for identity theft (I’m thinking something like posting a pay stub with SIN on the internet)? Or what if they shared something that led to illegal discrimination, such as medical bills? I think my examples are extreme cases, but there are legal ramifications to failing to keep privileged information private. Someone willing to do this is someone who shows bad judgment, and keeping such a person in a role where they have access to confidential information is a liability for the company.
       1. Judy* November 21, 2014 at 10:00 am

          That brings up a point I was debating with a co-worker on a long flight once. Is it (legally/morally/whatever) appropriate to use the use of medical insurance (when a company is self insured) to discriminate between employees? Not the condition, but the fact that this person used $100,000 in medical costs. We both found it suspicious that it appeared that during RIF times, one of the common denominators between many of the “younger” RIF-ees was (presumed) lots of medical usage. People who had severely premature children in the past several years. People with non-working spouses who had cancer. People with spouses with significant disability (MS, etc). And employees that had cancer, heart surgery, etc. Not necessarily only people who had medical issues, but people with family that did.

          Is it legal to use the amount of dollars spent on medical issues (not the issue itself) to differentiate employees? And if it is legal, is it morally or ethically appropriate?
          1. Sharon* November 21, 2014 at 10:11 am

             In my opinion, that’s heinous.
          2. Cat* November 21, 2014 at 10:19 am

             I don’t know if it’s legal, but it’s absolutely not ethical or moral.
             1. fposte* November 21, 2014 at 10:36 am

                I would think there’d be a big risk of its being illegal due to disproportionate effect, since conditions that require a lot of medical care are likely to strongly correlate with disability/pregnancy.
                1. Judy* November 21, 2014 at 10:52 am

                   But if it is about the family rather than the employee? That’s the hook, that many of these events were about an employee’s spouse or child rather than the employee.
                   1. fposte* November 21, 2014 at 2:14 pm

                      ADA covers known relatives with disabilities as well, though.
          3. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 10:26 am

             Ethically wrong of course, but I think it could be legally defensible depending on the situation (e.g. a company that’s smaller than a certain threshold in terms of size or profit, or when medical costs are above a percentage of overall costs). However, isn’t the point of having instance that the insurance company pays those costs? They might raise your premiums next year to compensate, but is it legal (ha!) for an insurance company to give a company information on individual employee cost/utilization? Of course a small company might take the aggregate data and be able to identify individuals (based on sick time or fmla use) but I don’t think they should be getting a breakdown of medical bills per employee, right?
             1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 10:37 am

                I think also, in the example you mentioned above, these might be people less “devoted” to the company. If they need lots of time off (even within their pto allowances), or don’t volunteer for travel or weekend work as much, even if they’re good employees they might be let go because they just don’t produce as much as people with fewer family committments. In that case, while the company has a case for letting go of low(er) performers (assuming the RIF was financially necessary), what do you do when it has such a disparate impact? I know disparate impact is a legal consideration, so I think we’re back to duking it out in the courts based on the size of the company, number of employees laid off and how many of them fit the description of using medical resources (time off, special accommodation or actual insurance costs).
                1. Chinook* November 21, 2014 at 11:14 am

                   I think also, in the example you mentioned above, these might be people less “devoted” to the company. If they need lots of time off (even within their pto allowances), or don’t volunteer for travel or weekend work as much, even if they’re good employees they might be let go because they just don’t produce as much as people with fewer family committments”

                   The flip side is that these employees, if kept on, may be more devoted in the long term because the company didn’t abandon them when they had a tough year. As well, healthy employees may notice that, if they or family members, got too sick, they risk being laid off as well and, if they are good at what they do, they will look for work elsewhere (preferably with an employer who is not self-insured).

                   We had one employee hear who just had one bad break after the other – broke a leg which didn’t heal right (so surgery and crutches for much longer) then son died in a car accident. She was probably off as much as she was on that year but everyone notice that the company treated her with empathy and, now that she is back to full force, she is as committed as ever.
                   1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 11:45 am

                      If the company is big enough, they just might not care about long term devotees. In a smaller business this would probably be noticed, but I don’t think people expect a lot of personalized care and attention when they’re just a cog in the machine of a great fortune 500 corporate monolith. In that case, especially if smaller RIFs are common (e.g. a plant closing down), I doubt the company suffers too much from lowered morale or loss of other intangibles.
             2. Judy* November 21, 2014 at 10:44 am

                In 2011, 58.5% of workers with health coverage were in self-insured plans. Meaning, the companies just contracted an insurance company to administer the insurance by the agreed rules, but the employer just paid the costs.

                I’m fairly sure that companies get the breakdown by employee, because I’ve seen data comparing different “slices” of employee usage, and I’m not sure that the insurance company has all of that information (notably by organization unit of < 100 people) to just give the average usage by slice. I know that they give aggregate # of people with x procedure information, but it seems like they give the medical spend per person.

                And it's possibly pretty obvious even without FMLA if people talk about their families. Any blip would cause lots of cost. My mom's first occurrence of breast cancer, with outpatient lumpectomy followed by radiation, billed cost was more than $50k. I'd hate to know what my dad's chemo/surgery/chemo cost or my mom's mastectomy/chemo/radiation cost.
                1. Judy* November 21, 2014 at 10:49 am

                   I should say 58.% of US workers with health coverage…
          4. UKAnon* November 21, 2014 at 10:29 am

             FWIW, this was recognised as legally discrimination by the European Courts of Justice – discrimination by association – in similar circs; a woman who claimed she had to give up work because they wouldn’t accommodate her need to care for her disabled son. It’s now enshrined in law in the UK. It applies across all the protected characteristics, so you can’t discriminate against someone eg because of their partner’s race/ethnic origin/religion/gender etc.

             Thankfully, your example is highly unlikely to arise because we have health care free at the point of delivery, but I would say it is also morally and ethically inappropriate.
          5. CAA* November 21, 2014 at 10:57 am

             Yes, it’s illegal for an employer who is self-insured to use information about medical claims when making layoff decisions. It’s a HIPPA violation. The employer becomes the insurer in this case, so they’re required to adhere to the HIPPA regulations.
          6. Maggie* November 21, 2014 at 1:01 pm

             As someone in the research community, only if it’s de-identified *and used for research purposes*. If you’re using it to debate their position within the company, absolutely not. That should be covered under the ADA…..somehow, I would think. Or it should anyway.

             Ew. Sorry you work for those creeps.
             1. Judy* November 21, 2014 at 1:13 pm

                Don’t work for them any more.
11. HR Manager* November 21, 2014 at 9:40 am

    #5 – Have you disclosed that you are not physically there yet? If you are getting to a background check phase, address is one of the first things that get verified. Putting a UPS store address (not a UPS PO box #) is going to look fishy and likely come back as a flag on the screen.
    1. De Minimis* November 21, 2014 at 11:16 am

       I think everyone who uses a UPS store or other private mailing service has their box listed on their address. I remember the rules changing about it a few years ago.

       I don’t know how stringent a staffing agency background check will be, though. The OP should still be up front about their physical location, it will be easier for everyone. For a government clearance level check, it would absolutely cause problems, one of the main things they look at is residence history, but those type of checks don’t usually happen until the offer stage or sometimes even afterward.
       1. jag* November 21, 2014 at 4:17 pm

          Whose rules are these?

          I’ve seen addresses for a store that provides boxes (not UPS, another company) where the address was basically 200 West 23rd Street, #XYX, City, State, Zip.

          The #XZY looked like an apartment number to me, but was actually a box number.
          1. De Minimis* November 24, 2014 at 10:33 am

             I think federal rules, having to do with mail fraud. Might have been through USPS. If it was a business they had to show the box number as “PMB.” No idea what the penalties were for not complying with it.

             *I checked, yes, it was through the USPS. I think it was actually a business-related thing to try to make it tougher for competitors, but they apparently amended the rule to make it less strict.
    2. TheSnarkyB* November 21, 2014 at 11:28 am

       Yeah- OP #5, can you clarify? It sounds like you were trying to pass that off as your residential address, which really isn’t ok because it’s flat out false and going to get found out. On the other hand, is you listed it as a mailing address, it should have a pretty clear format that demonstrates that (eg Box #123). If not, I think you’re gonna be in hot water for it. Looks like misrepresenting the facts.
       1. OP #5* November 21, 2014 at 1:45 pm

          OP #5 here… I listed it as my address because I am not physically in the state yet (this is a cross country job search) and I know I wouldn’t even be in consideration if I told the truth.

          I can be there within two weeks if offered the position..and it is with a staffing agency and for a non government job.

          I just figured they are mainly looking for criminal records, etc., and I told them that I recently mobed their so I don’t have an issue with my previous addresses showing up.
          1. Zillah* November 23, 2014 at 10:08 pm

             … Yeah, but it’s still a lie, and it wouldn’t be hard for them to find out that your new address is actually a UPS store. If they do, you’re screwed, because then your integrity comes into question.

             I’d think you’d be better off getting a post office box, listing that, and saying that you’re in the process of moving and this is a stable mailing address.
12. INTP* November 21, 2014 at 9:55 am

    Regarding #5: Besides a background check, this sort of thing can bite you in general if you are presenting yourself as a local candidate. It wouldn’t be unheard of for a recruiter to google your address. (Not in a creepy way, just “Hmm, I haven’t heard of that zip code before, I wonder where it is *highlight, right click, search google for…*” or to check how far the commute is if that’s been an issue with past employees.) If you’re listing a business as your address, it will show up and you will be outed.
13. Dutch Thunder* November 21, 2014 at 10:13 am

    For #2, the OP could also tell Jane that she didn’t mention she’d also applied at the time because she didn’t think she’d been selected, and therefore saw no conflict. Now that she has also been selected, however, she wants to make sure that Jane is aware of the situation.
    1. Sarah* November 21, 2014 at 2:42 pm

       Ah! Sorry – didn’t read down far enough when I made this point up there. Totally agree with this.
14. kozinskey* November 21, 2014 at 10:27 am

    Is anyone else seeing some weird formatting where the right edge of each paragraph is being just barely cut off? Running Chrome over here and it looks strange (and half of some of the letters are missing).
15. Purple Jello* November 21, 2014 at 10:59 am

    #1 – since this is a small office, there probably wasn’t a confidentiality agreement signed? What about an ethics policy?

    #3 – you should ALWAYS tell someone when they’re doing a good job. Thank yous are never out of place when sincere. Please offer to serve as a reference.

    #4 – “He wasn’t able to make it this year”. If pushed for more, then “he had another thing going on…”, then maybe “it’s unfortunate”.
16. John R* November 21, 2014 at 11:35 am

    For the salary thing, I just say get over it. I’ve been working in the public sector and our salaries are published online every year for the whole world to see. Everyone knows what everyone else makes. Big deal.
    1. Chriama* November 21, 2014 at 12:03 pm

       The issue here is the OP is at a disadvantage if everyone’s salary is public except for hers. Also, the broader concern of trusting this employee with *any* confidential information. I did find the OP – and her entire workplace – coming across as a little immature (the office manager’s new position is “going to her head”, getting “mad” and sharing the salary info out of spite), but she still has valid concerns.
    2. catsAreCool* November 21, 2014 at 10:23 pm

       A co-worker divulged confidential information that was not hers to share. This does seem like a big deal to me.
17. mel* November 21, 2014 at 11:54 am

    It’s just an office party, though. Is it really that shocking to say “he didn’t feel up to attending?” I tend to think of work parties as a dreadful obligation to be sociable with near strangers. Unless it sounds like a particularly interesting event (like a fun tour or literally anything other than standing and drinking), I usually bow out. No one asks and no one cares.

    Is it also usual to ask permission for references AFTER being selected for an interview? Seems awfully last minute. What if OP had said no? Am I not supposed to be asking around before even starting the search process? Maybe I just work in an abnormally laid-back workplace, but I wouldn’t assume her asking was evidence that she had an interview.
    1. Sarah* November 21, 2014 at 2:50 pm

       I had a situation in my last job where I was very close to some of my co-workers but couldn’t stand to be in the same room as some others. It made it so difficult to bow out of work socials because I’d be quizzed by the ones I was close to about what my other plans were. I didn’t want to give them the real answer (didn’t want to be a well poisoner) but just saying I had other plans would result in further questioning. I used to deliberately make plans with other friends to get out of whatever it was.
18. AUB* November 21, 2014 at 12:18 pm

    #4- ‘my boyfriend won’t be joining us tonight. It’s nice of you to ask about him!’ That’s not a white lie. I think any lying should be minimized even if to protect feelings.

Comments are closed.