update: is the work environment I’ve created on my team too exclusive?

by Alison Green on August 2, 2017

Remember the letter-writer last week whose employee had quit and said in her exit interview that the team environment was too cliquish? She ended up adding more details in the comments on the original post, including that some employees had been mocking the employee who quit on SnapChat, and when someone complained to HR, the letter-writer wanted to move the person who complained to another team.

Here’s the update.

I was fired today without severance. When my letter was published, I was already on suspension based on the exit interview investigation, poor management practices and complaints from other areas, none of which I believe are accurate. HR and the management team stated I had mismanaged my team and the ex-employee. I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me. I had also downgraded  her end-of-year evaluation. I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my directorand client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me. I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing.

My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness. I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.

HR and my regional vice president stated she had been hired to fill a role for a growing segment of our business and should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team. By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name. During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.

HR told me the brewery beer runs were against company policy and I should have stopped the SnapChats, especially those who had it on their company phones. I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying? I also don’t know how/if I should have monitored this with my team. My entire team was fired. The reasons for the firings included alcohol at work, even though we were physically at the brewery, inappropriate social media behavior, and not meeting the code of conduct.

I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn; I feel like I was the scapegoat for a favored employee’s reason to leave. Being dedicated to your work doesn’t mean you can’t have fun at the same time. My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.

With this letter-writer’s permission, I’m also printing here some of the email exchange that I had with her after receiving this update.

Me: I’m sorry to ask this, but I’m trying to figure out if this is real or not. There’s a lot in here that’s making me question it. You haven’t responded to any of the points brought up in my original answer or in the comments. Why?

Letter-writer (LW): Because I disagree with your points and I don’t want to constantly defend myself. My ex employee made me look bad and I thought that as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager.

… I still think my entire situation is messed up that my team got tanked because of someone who couldn’t handle the office and who didn’t need to be there anyway.

I get that I am a shitty manager unless you actually worked with me but I worked with friends for 5 years. I didn’t want the ex employee to begin with. So I wanted to make it uncomfortable for her to leave and didn’t think I’d lose my job in the process.

Me: Do you not understand that what you did was illegal? (Note: When I wrote this, I was thinking the employee was in her 40s, which would mean age discrimination laws were in play. Upon re-reading the letter, she’s actually in her 30s so my point here was poorly formed.)

LW: Is it illegal to not like someone? No one got hurt except for someone’s feelings and she left the company. I don’t understand what or how I did was illegal. I’m not getting the lesson that I should have learned. I should not have been fired because someone didn’t like how she was being managed. She left on her own terms. It’s not like I fired her and if I did, I work in an at will state so I could have gotten rid of her at any time. But I’m not that mean.

Me: It’s illegal to retaliate against someone (like moving them to another department or taking them off assignments, etc.) for reporting harassment. You opened your company up to legal jeopardy. At-will employment has exceptions to it, including retaliation after someone reports harassment.

Beyond that, you’ve been managing your team in really horrible, ineffective ways, and it sounds like you’re not willing to do serious reflection on that. You’re digging in your heels and insisting that what you did wasn’t a big deal, but any decent company will think it’s a very big deal — so you’re really hurting yourself professionally by refusing to change your thinking.

LW: I didn’t retaliate. I wanted to remove the SnapChat person but I didn’t. I’m still upset that happened. I still don’t understand why getting angry over someone not coming to me first but going to HR is that big of a deal.

Me: There are a lot of really good, detailed explanations in the comment section on the post. I recommend reading them with an open mind, because they will definitely explain where you went wrong. I hope you’re open to changing your thinking, so that you’re able to move forward in your career without being hindered by this. Otherwise it’s going to continue to harm you over and over.

LW: Ok but can I still get some credit for NOT doing it though? Or not firing ex employee? Or for looking out for my team and giving them opportunities? Isn’t that what managers do?

(Note from Alison: All comments on this post will be moderated, as I want to avoid a pile-on. I will not release unconstructive comments from moderation.)

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    2. Amber Rose*

      I hope there haven’t been too many unconstructive comments to get rid of and you enjoyed your extra time.

    3. Borgette*

      Off topic, but did you adjust the bars between primary replies? They seem thicker to me, but I’m also on a different device. They look nice and make it a bit easier to find the next thread. Thanks for all the work you put into the site!

    4. Lizzie T*

      Wow. Are you sure it’s for real? It’s almost word prefect for every single mistake you could make! Excellent responses by you and the commentators. Might have to use this as a case study!

  2. Xay*

    If you can’t say something nice, you shouldn’t say anything at all. So I am very impressed by the decisive action by the LW’s employer. I wish it had come sooner for their former employee – it sounds like she went through a lot on LW’s team.

    1. Princess Carolyn*

      I agree, the decisive action says a lot about the company’s values. I’d have to know more details to decide if they should have intervened sooner, but firing the whole gang was certainly the right way to respond to the findings of their investigation. Firing and replacing that many people is not an easy or cheap thing to do, so I’m impressed.

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Chiming in to commend the employer also.

        OP, if you have a mentor, or even some kind of therapist dealing with professional situations to help you more clearly see your part in this, I would highly recommend it. If not, perhaps coming back to read the comments in this post will prove to be an eye-opener for you. There’s a lot of opportunity for you to grow as a result of this experience. Good luck to you.

        1. Annonymouse*

          Oh OP.
          Do not complain or try to file anything against the ex employee because everything you’ve accused her of (damaging reputation, costing you a job) you’ve admitted to doing to her in your letter. She has tonnes of evidence to back her claims. You have none.

          You really mishandled your team and employee.

          This is going to be hard to hear/read because this directly challenges your self view (I’m a great manager and my team love me! I’ve done the best for my team!)

          Challenges to self view normally result in defensiveness but I’m hoping you have enough empathy, open mindedness and self awareness to see what the rest of us can see.

          Doing best by the business is best for your team. If the business you work for is successful and growing that means your team has more chances for raises, promotions and other growth opportunities like seminars and training.

          By choosing to act the way you did to your employee you showed that you cared more about the social side and keeping the peace for your existing teams approval than the needs of the business. In fact you actively undermined your superiors and the business by acting that way. You may not see it that way but your bosses certainly did.

          You seemed determined not to like or embrace this employee. No matter what she did she would never be able to be part of your team.

          Here’s the points where I think you could stand to reevaluate your viewpoint:

          * She regularly went above and beyond.

          Instead of being inspired to do likewise or admiring her work ethic you instead decided she “made you/your team look bad” and refused to help her be better at her job (which would have reflected well on you and your team if you had).

          * You downgraded her evaluation even though several outside parties (including your boss) gave her much praise.

          This relates to the above point. She was by all accounts (even your own) great at her job. If any of your other team members had done what she had and gotten those results and that praise I’m sure they would have gotten a better review than she did. Because she was an outsider you penalised her. It almost seems retaliatory.

          * You admit you didn’t respect her years of experience or education because they weren’t a perfect match for your team.

          Instead of judging her on her consistently high performance and changing your initial impression you decided she wasn’t “smart” enough for you to respect or treat well. Even if you don’t respect a coworker you still keep it professional. You decided not to do that.

          * You assigned work meant for her to other people.

          This wasn’t because she had too many things on or was on a leave of absence. This was giving others opportunities at a cost to her. If she is a minority or you assigned her tasks to males only that’s a EEOC complaint right there.

          * By her leaving it cost your company clients and reputation.

          Surely you must understand how important these two things are? What does your team do to generate these things for the company? Not much I assume.
          Would it not make sense to do damage control and remove what caused the loss to happen?

          It makes sense to try and retain what gives you business and remove what costs you business – which meant your entire team.

          OP you need to reflect on these points:

          Managers should not be friends with their reports. Friendly yes but not friends.

          A manager should lift their team so they all perform at the strongest members level. Not drag down the high performers to be mediocre.

          Your job is to treat people fairly. This can be different to equally. If someone is pulling more weight they should get more rewards or privileges. Not punished.

          1. motherofdragons*

            These are all such great, constructive points. I want to add that this (IMO, accurate) assessment of LW’s perspective jumped out at me: “I’m a great manager and my team love me! I’ve done the best for my team!”

            LW…that person WAS on your team. She was a PART of your team. If “team” to you only means your buddies you’ve known forever, and/or people with a certain degree, that’s really poor management. It sounds like she was actually making your team look *good* to internal and external stakeholders by being such a star! A good manager recognizes this and provides opportunities to let the star shine, not work to get them out.

            1. Megan Johnson*

              Not to mention that I highly doubt the team is very happy with her or her management now, since it cost them their jobs. She did them a real disservice by not addressing things that were problems, simply because she disagreed.

              1. Julia*

                I’m not sure. Of course the OP should have stopped the, but apparently (I hope!) they came up with the Snapchat and beer runs on their own.

              2. MashaKasha*

                Based on what the LW said about the team also considering legal action, I’d say they are still happy with LW and think that the ex-employee was the problem. It would be incredibly hard for the members of this team to function in their next jobs, when they do find those. I’m reminded of all the posts on this site about having one’s perspective of what’s normal and what isn’t in a workplace, being warped by spending time working in a toxic environment. It will take these people years to relearn how to be a real team member on a real team.

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Doing your best for your team includes showing them what it takes to stay employed.

              1. Chinook*

                Exactly. Doing your best for your team means everyone on your team, not just ones you have known for X+ years and/or like. Being a manager means managing everyone under you that has been assigned to you even if you don’t like it.

                You missed a great opportunity to work with someone who excelled at her job and could make you stretch to be better at yours. Instead you belittled her for her efforts and tried to drag her down to your level. I hope o e day you realize that you lost more than a job and choose to manage differently if ever given another opportunity to do so

              2. Annonymouse*

                Employed by the company and not just OP to adjust that point.

                Staying employed by OP = drinking buddies and having worked there for as long as OP. Being part of a very specific demographic.

                Staying employed by the company = performing your job well and adding value to the company.

                Value does not always equal profit. E.g the IT or mailroom don’t add profit but woe betide any large company trying to operate without them.

            3. Akcipitrokulo*

              Agreed… even if she wasn’t seen by OP as “really” on her team, OP did the rest of the team a diservice by not allowing the team’s reputation as a whole to improve, and by not allowing them to grow with a specialist there to help!

              Instead of saying “why should she get that plum project? Give it to Bob, he could do with improving there!”, saying “hey… would you mind if Bob assists on that? I think he’d benefit from seeing how you do it.” would have been helping business, doing what boss wanted, letting her do the job for which she was hired which included helping your staff to improve, help Bob’s development a lot more than just giving it to him AND would encourage your team to interact positively with the new member.

              Her presence was a gift to your team, and you threw it away.

          2. The Southern Gothic*

            +10,0000. Thank you for taking this shitshow apart piece by piece. I appreciate you.

          3. snuck*

            The thing that stuck in my mind was the comment about her being on a track to be the OP’s manager within 2yrs, even though the OP has more experience.

            This is real world. People will come along with more potential than you – they will have different skill sets. They might need to learn something in a job role under you but eventually they will move up, and as this employee shows… if they are on a fast track for promotion they deserve often to be there – they are often very adept at reading people situations, and if they can’t get the experience they need they’ll take their highly competitive, high quality skillset elsewhere, and the company misses out. It sounds like the OP’s company hand picked this person, said “We like you, you have potential, we want you to work your way up to X role, but you need to learn Y and Z first… so start in here” and then she was dumped in a bit of a vipers nest of resentment and exclusivity.

            In life, eventually unless you are the CEO, you are going to find yourself managing a stellar employee who will jump the rungs on the ladder ahead of you. It’s a fabulous thing to manage these people – you get the benefit of managing a professional, low maintenance, high performing individual who generally makes you (and the rest of your team) look good… you get the benefit of their professionalism and skills rubbing off on the rest of the team and shared learning and upskilling, and you get a chance to implement management changes and culture changes that you didn’t realise you needed or could do. It’s a win-win for you – you learn from them, they learn from you, your whole team learns from this. If you sit back resentful of the individual and all the bring you are fumbling the (ball) pass, and management above you will see you grinding out a poop, not polishing a gemstone…. it’s like you’ve been given a free throw and tossed it behind your back instead of towards the goal.

            And… coverage for the team going to lunch (to a brewery or anywhere else) if always done by one solitary person on their own, the same person… isnt’ ok. Make sure that coverage is rotated through the team. It’s simple human people management. What if the employee wanted to not sit there and man the phones every week on their lunchbreak, what if they wanted to get to know their colleagues and go to the brewery too? Were they given that chance?

        2. Mabel*

          I agree with the suggestion to get someone objective to help you deconstruct everything so you can see where you can improve. It’s not easy! When I’ve had a breakup or serious disagreement with someone, and I talk about it with my therapist, after we’ve talked about how terribly the other person behaved (little bit of sarcasm there), she always asks me to think about what my role was in the situation. These things are never one-sided, and there are always ways I can improve in the future. It feels really uncomfortable to do this, but it can only help me.

        3. TrainerGirl*

          It appears that this OP has their eyes firmly shut. Gosh, this really, if true, is just unbelievable. I get that the OP is only 28, but I have to wonder what kind of skewed workplaces have they been in to think that this behavior and judgement is acceptable? OP, I do hope you can take Allison’s words and the comments here to heart. Your current thinking will NOT help to advance your career. Please reflect on the advice given here and I wish you luck and success in the future.

          1. constablestark*

            I don’t think age is an excuse. I do wonder what it was like for OP when she (Alison clarified on Twitter that the OP was female) was starting out. I can’t help but wonder if a former boss was the same way and she held herself to that standard, and this whole thing ending up just being too big and too egregious for the company to try and save.

          2. Julia*

            I’m 28, and my previous workplace was terribly dysfunctional, but – mostly thanks to Alison! – I know that this is completely inappropriate.

            If anything, because the OP is still young, I hope she can still change. Someone who’s close to retirement (like my behated former co-‘worker’) probably has a much harder time.

            Then again, people of all ages can be stubborn.

          3. aebhel*

            28 is well into adulthood; OP’s age is no excuse for her behavior. I really hope she changes her thinking, but it doesn’t sound like she’s prepared to do that anytime soon.

            1. snuck*

              28 is well past the clique-ness of 18!

              At 28 you should have enough years of experience in the workplace to rise above social games….

              And at 28 if you’ve made it team leader/supervisor/managing people someone has seen potential in you along the way, so maybe the OP can step back, re-evaluate, work out why they were first promoted to a senior role and see if they can go back to that behaviour. (I’m in a country where seniority rules aren’t the norm, if this was purely a seniority promotion then examine whether that’s a good way to promote over actual demonstrated behaviours and skills!)

      2. Stranger than fiction*

        Exactly. For the company to take that drastic a measure shows how badly pervasive this was. I’m sad the Op doesn’t get it and hope she has an epiphany soon.

      3. Close Bracket*

        I missed that the entire team was fired! Whatever this company is, I want to work there. They really know how to handle a toxic situation.

        1. Bob*

          Ditto! I have put up with so much crap from idiot managers/tech leads it would be awesome to work somewhere they actually take that kind of stuff seriously then do something about it!

          1. Hmmmmm*

            It sounds like to me this person learned how to manage from their misunderstanding of how tech start ups function, but was pulling this crap at a traditional insurance company. Do you know who hates potential legal liability situations the most? Insurance companies! IDK, I would be interested to know if this person was inherited from a failed start up with a great product. My business has essentially pivoted into the business of absorbing start ups with great products but terrible business practices and it has been interesting. You would be shocked at the number of people who have freaked out as though their rights were being violated when we took away their keg and mandated that everyone has to keep regular hours and wear adult clothes.

          2. addiez*

            I was actually a little disappointed by that – to me, it feels unfair to fire someone with no warning and obviously these guys weren’t getting warnings since their boss was encouraging them. I appreciate that the company’s trying to deal with a toxic workplace, but I’m not sure I’m behind my read of how it went down.

            1. Hmmmmm*

              I would argue that they all demonstrated a profound lack of common sense with the social media stuff. If it was a Fortune 500 insurance company, they probably all had signed documents the very clearly outlined the company’s social media policy (ie don’t embarrass us and don’t use our computers or phones or wifi network if you insist on embarrassing yourself). As I mentioned before, my company is having great success by absorbing failing start ups and firing anyone who isn’t completely weirded out by the idea of drinking from a keg at work or doesn’t understand the difference between your social life and work life. If you don’t understand why we are taking away your keg and throwing away your legos, you should not have a job.

              1. Sophoula*

                Not sure if I agree with a mass firing with no notice or severance. The team could have just been trying to please or follow direction from their manager, or gain her approval through their actions. If that was indeed the logic behind what was going on, then it would make sense to fire the manager and give the team a warning and training on workplace behaviors.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  I get the intent here, but I think when you reach a certain level of toxicity sometimes there’s no way to fix it aside from salting the earth and starting over.

                  Like, can you imagine being the new manager for that team? That’s a misery I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy – coming in to an unbelievably clique-ish environment with people who’ve demonstrated themselves to be bullies who expect their manager to cover for their bad behavior, and now you’re supposed to take control and retrain from the ground up on How To Be Professional. What a nightmare that would be.

                  Especially considering the clique-type social environment and bullying, things which thrive on a herd mentality and “us vs them” thinking, you *have* to break up the group if you want it to get better. Just changing out management while leaving the rest of the group intact is going to leave you with a team of embittered bullies who have seen their Cool Manager punished and may well take out their anger on the new manager.

                2. snuck*

                  Yeah. I’m with Jadelyn. There’s no way to bring in a new manager with this team…or there is, but it’d be a massive up hill battle.

                  A company that has handled this so firmly I assume also would have taken the time to step back and look at the team. They wouldn’t fire an entire team (leaving no legacy knowledge) without reason. They probably found profound issues with the whole team, and realised it wasn’t salvagable in it’s current state without a lot of effort (too much effort?) and thus burnt it to the ground.

                  I’d have been tempted to consider the same. Especially if it was a role where recruitment of new staff was going to be easy, and upskilling of them would only require a few weeks to get hte team back up and running, because fixing this existing team looks like a multi month debacle. The response to cancelling beer-o’clock, the snapchat, the sniping, the ostracising of other more professional stuff due to their competence? You can teach new skills, but you can’t really teach new attitudes, and certainly not in a hurry.

            2. RabbitRabbit*

              I’m wondering if maybe the underlings weren’t engaging in a ton of other inappropriate stuff that the OP never even knew about or cared to mention. It could have added up to a sheer volume of egregiousness that couldn’t be overlooked any longer.

              1. One of the Sarahs*

                Yes, this – it was clear that at least 2 members of OP’s team couldn’t go to her with concerns, so there are likely to be all kinds of other issues going on that she never spotted.

              2. msnovtue*

                That, or OP’s behavior was so blatantly beyond the pale that the various team members failing to discuss it with HR or a higher-up was pretty much a cardinal sin in and of itself. OP’s behavior sounds like it’s straight out of the 8th-grade-mean-girl playbook, and ghe fact that no one saw anything wrong with how she was treating the former employee really doesn’t speak well of the other team members’ judgement.

            3. Tanya*

              I don’t think the company felt they had a choice after their investigation. There certainly are ‘teachable moments’ in many cases, and I think that the company probably would have reprimanded and taught these people what is/isn’t acceptable had they shown any remorse for their involvement in the bullying.

              But it sounds like these people, especially the OP, feel that they were right the entire time! They just seem simply unteachable. And well, the drinking during work hours… well… the fact that they just can’t see how this is wrong is shameful! That alone was enough to terminate.

              1. Green*

                As an ex-biglaw lawyer, drinking during work hours isn’t morally wrong or shameful or enough to terminate in a lot of environments. It may not be a healthy culture if it is more than occasional or if people actually get drunk, and it is obviously a terrible idea in some jobs or if it is against policy (or to encourage as a manager if you aren’t sure it’s fine). However, it’s not inherently evil to drink an alcoholic beverage between the hours of 9 to 5. :)

                1. Gadfly*

                  I suspect things like the Snapchats were a bigger issue–screams liability and scandal and other problems.

    2. Jen S. 2.0*

      I know! Not that I wish ill upon anyone in the situation, and I hope everyone lands in a good place, but WOW to the company for taking this kind of action on a report from an exit interview. I think I’ve never bothered to do much more than smile and nod in exit interviews, because what good will it do?

      1. MashaKasha*

        Came here to say this (picks jaw up off the floor after reading the entire post). If there is anything positive I took away from this and the previous post, it’s that exit interviews matter. (Admittedly, a teammate also went to HR, and the company lost some of their business as well, so it wasn’t all just on the results of one exit interview.)

        PS. They had snapchats on company phones! on company phones!… I swear, each time I scroll up to check up on that letter, I find something new that is more horrifying than what I’ve noticed before. That whole letter is just one big pile of awful… No wonder AAM had to double-check that it was real.

        1. JessaB*

          The only possible reason I could see for snapchat on a company phone is if you’re some kind of media, advertising or fashion company. Still in that case I think there’d be incredibly strict rules about what you can and cannot post on it.

          1. MashaKasha*

            Oh, I meant specifically the offending snapchats of the ex-employee on the teammates’ company phones. That’s just so… blatant.

          2. constablestark*

            Can confirm. I work at an advertising agency and some of us do use Snapchat, and yes, we do have a code of conduct specific to social media. This definitely crosses the line.

        2. Bostonian*

          Ooooh, good point. LW definitely had the stance of “all this because of 1 exit interview”, while totally ignoring all the other bad things, too.

        3. MsMaryMary*

          I just want to add that exit interviews do matter, at least at decent companies. At OldJob, we had enough people leave and flatly say they were being underpaid and were leaving for $10,000+ pay increases that everyone who was still there got significant “market increases.” When I eventually left that company, HR called me a week after my exit interview to clarify a point. Specifically, my grandboss had wanted to know if a specific person was the reason I was leaving (that person certainly did not make my job easier, but she was one of multiple issues that made me decide to leave). Exit interviews are not just a formality.

        4. Specialk9*

          I’m an Old, obviously, but isn’t the point of Snapchat that it disappears? I think Snapchat servers keep the data, but would the company be able to see what they wrote? (Never used Snapchat)

          1. Middle School Teacher*

            I’m an Old too, but I spend my day with young people. You can screen-shot the Snap before it disappears, and then you have it forever, and you can send the screenshot to whoever you want.

      2. JessaB*

        I was also amazed by this. Honestly, I wonder if the company, having gotten rid of both the problem manager and the team, would offer her a better job and a bonus as an incentive to come back. She did the company a huge favour and should not end up the one out of work. She seriously sounds like someone awesome.

        1. Amy H*

          I absolutely agree. It sounds like the company was already trying to upgrade this department by hiring this person in the first place, and likely knew there were problems with the manager. Its a shame that a whole shitshow went down and the baby went out with the bath water. Im frankly amazed that the Manager was allowed to stay on as long as she did, as being insubordinate to make a point and directly contradicting the wishes of hire ups is ONE OF THE THINGS THEY TEACH YOU NOT TO DO IN B-SCHOOL. So if all of these cliquish team members were smart enough to get MBAs, then the “troubled” employee with the years of real world experience really did turn out to be the wiser employee.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            Actually, they never taught that in my b-school. They taught how to assess executive directives in context of larger business strategy, and how to go back to execs if you disagree. The rule was much more, ‘here’s how and why to contradict execs effectively – use your numbers’ not ‘do not contradict execs’.

            The ‘we all have masters and she only had a BA’ is a *hugely* troubling attitude to me. My MBA gave me maybe 8 years of experience in 18mo (and a career path change), but anyone with a BA + 10 years experience in the field has the equivalent of an MBA + 2.

            It’s not, of course, the most troubling part of the letter.

            1. MsM*

              Yep. Even from a pure soft skills approach, my instinct would be to go back to the superiors and say “I understand that we want to take full advantage of Employee’s skills and connections in this area, but I feel like the rest of my team is missing out on valuable learning opportunities, and that it would benefit the company in the long run if we’re able to spread this expertise over multiple people. How do we make this work for everyone?” And if the bosses continue to play favorites when it doesn’t seem warranted (although in this case, the fact that one person could waltz in and expose just how badly the rest of the team was underperforming should’ve been a wake-up call to either reassess the rest of the team and the strategies that made them what they are, or enlist her in bringing everyone up to the same level), start looking around for a new job. Don’t bully and undermine.

              1. Gadfly*

                And really, even though they might call them equivalents, they often aren’t. You do learn some very different things and make different connections, usually, in school versus in the workforce. And sometimes one skillset is more valuable than the other.

      3. AMPG*

        Unfortunately, I think the loss of business and damage to the company’s reputation were probably what actually caused them to take action. The exit interview was likely just the evidence they needed to correctly place blame. I’m not trying to take away from the good choices management made in cleaning house in this department at all, but I definitely think this outcome was possible mainly because there was tangible injury to the company’s bottom line.

        1. Annonymouse*

          The business seemed to be taking action and investigating based off the exit interview.

          But then again the business had incentive since a superstar employee was leaving and clients left as a result of that.

          Or maybe as you suggest it gave them the direction or evidence they needed to act.

      4. blushingflower*

        It makes sense to take action as the result of an exit interview if the person doing the exit interview is someone that you were hoping to keep. Comments from a poor performer might also be useful/instructive if it points to a lack of training or support, but if someone who has been good for business is leaving (and their loss hurts the business), it behooves a company to investigate claims they make. You don’t want high performers leaving because of culture fit issues; you want to get rid of the people who make those high performers uncomfortable.

      5. rory*

        I’d bet the exit interview was the straw that broke the back. All that stuff happening and then the rock star they hired, who “for some reason” was having issues and getting downgraded… yeah, if I’d hired someone awesome and saw all this going on, and then getting told the whole story in an exit interview, that would be the point where it snapped and something had to get done about the problem, since it just gone from “this is a bad situation” to “this is a *really* bad situation, and possibly a lawsuit”.

      6. Rmric0*

        Reading between the lines I imagine that the team was on the chopping block before all this went down. The exit interview was just the last nail

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          It’s very possible that new team member was brought in as a “ok, let’s see if having a consultant to show them how to work the way we want them to helps.” Especially as OP mentioned

          “should have functioned as a team consultant.”

          And OP was aware of this.

          ” **During her employment**, my director and I had several meetings on her role”

          It’s possible director hadn’t said bluntly “this is to help save your team” … IF that was what was going on… but seriously, you are given a team consultant and refuse to let them do their job? That is bad for all your team.

          1. Samata*

            I was wondering about the bluntness of conversation as well since OP followed that up with I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.

            She definitely is coming across as threatened by someone she sees as an undeserving and lesser employee – in terms of age, ability to mesh with team and education. Actual work product and ethic don’t seem to be factoring into OPs concerns and as a manager I would think those should be at the top of the list or reasons to hold on to the employee, not be insubordinate or retaliatory.

      1. Ego Chamber*

        I don’t think they did handle it very well. They recognized there was a problem (good) and brought in a consultant (good)… but then they allowed the consultant’s manager to change the consultant’s role into an associate so the manager’s team wouldn’t be upset about someone being hired at a different role than them, because they all have higher level degrees than the consultant and newbies need to pay their dues. What.

        This is awful all around, except the part where they eventually took action—after the person they brought in as a consultant, who was intentionally frozen out and harassed until she quit, left because of the problem they already knew about or suspected (the letter is unclear). I’m really upset everyone is giving so many kudos to this company. I get that it takes time to fire a manager and their entire team, but seemingly hiring someone to be the evidence of how poorly this team functions is just cruel.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          I saw it as hiring someone to help the team… OP said they were there to share knowledge and act as a consultant to her team. Also the business was trying to intervene –

          “During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role…”

          Now the business may have taken eye off the ball and missed HOW bad things were getting… or were seeing some improvements (maybe not as much as expected) and didn’t realise it was bad enough for star to leave… but they weren’t ignoring this team’s problems.

    4. Lab Monkey*

      I really hope the company are able and willing to reach ou to the ex employee to apologize and offer some kind of good will gesture – fantastic reference, severance, something. An apology would go a long way.

    6. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I wonder if they are going to try and lure the ex-employee back to mitigate some of this as well. And I wonder if she’d accept knowing the entire team, not just the manager, is gone.

      One of the lessons to be learned, that I am not sure has been brought up, is that one cannot assume they are more valuable than another employee simply because they are higher ranking or a manager. The ex-employee clearly had value that the OP ignored, IMO, and that is just as much a problem as the bullying, exclusion, ageism, etc.

      1. Your Weird Uncle*

        On your second point, I would add ‘having a higher degree’ to the list of reasons not to assume you are more valuable than another employee!

        1. Marzipan*

          I did rather wince at that bit.

          OP, leaving aside the fact that not everyone wants or needs advanced degrees and that’s perfectly OK, getting a master’s degree is not purely a question of being ‘smart and dedicated’. It’s simply not an option that’s available to everyone at every stage in their lives for a variety of reasons (like finances, or caring obligations). Expecting everyone to have had the (really very privileged) opportunity to do a master’s is, once again, an example of how you were only being accepting of a very narrow section of society being part of your team. I would really recommend thinking about this as you move forward.

          1. Oranges*

            Some of us also are very smart but had enough trouble going through college. Masters… nope. My brain wants tangible rewards to its efforts and will balk at “busy work” or the like. College is FULL of work you do just for learning and gets tossed out the second you get that degree.

            That makes college hard for me. I made it through, barely. However, I am a rock-star at my current (programming) job. I know that between me and someone with a masters (or even a degree in CS instead of Art), there wouldn’t even be a competition. My boss would choose me hands down.

            1. sunny-dee*

              I was good in college and actually had a full scholarship for a master’s program (as a teaching assistant), and dropped out my first week just because that wasn’t what I wanted to do with my life. (A fact that nearly made my husband pass out when I told him.)

              There are all kinds of wonderful reasons why people don’t get a post-grad degree — and all kinds of other reasons why having a graduate degree is not an indicator of intelligence, dedication, or experience.

              1. Oranges*

                Exactly! It’s kinda sad that the one measurement that the LW uses is “Masters” since it’s so very narrow. Not only must the person be privileged enough to have that opportunity, their brain must “learn” in a certain way also. That’s amazingly narrow to me since most of the people I like to hang out with are chaotic autodidacts and I learn SO MUCH from them since we all love having new knowledge nuggets.

                1. sunny-dee*

                  Exactly! I got a bachelor’s, honestly, because I enjoyed college. My brother despised traditional education structures, so he taught himself enough to get about a dozen different software and hardware certifications and has been working as a software developer for almost 15 years. I literally work on high end dev teams where have the people have degrees (and graduate degrees) from Stanford, MIT, or Carnegie Mellon, and the other half maybe went to some regional / state school. There comes a point where experience, performance, and ability greatly outweigh whatever your “academic” credentials are.

            2. Julia*

              This. Other than what Marizpan mentions (finances etc.), being good in school does not necessarily mean someone is smart, and being bad at school does not mean someone is not smart.

              I am currently in grad school and I can see the toll it is taking on my mental health, so after I have my Master’s, I will nope out of academia for life. And that is even though I am getting mostly A’s!

              I also see a LOT of people at my school who cannot seem to do any critical thinking. They’re good at studying and memorizing, I guess, but thinking for themselves, not so much. And then there are those who I’ve mentioned in the previous post who think that words like ‘retard’ are appropriate language for a grad student. (Or any human being.) I wonder if OP is one of those.

          2. The Other Katie*

            Even disregarding people’s personal situations, there are very many jobs that neither require from nor benefit from higher degrees, or where suitable continuing education training can’t make someone as or more competent than the corresponding MA. For example, the OP could have put more time into management training, and thus understood that attempting to “un-manage” a high performer specifically brought on to improve your team into quitting because you don’t like how competent she is is a bad idea.

            1. DDJ*

              In Canada, “unmanaging” is referred to as constructive dismissal and is illegal. If this were taking place in Canada, the ex-employee would probably be able to sue for damages, since the evidence is fairly apparent (although typically, you need to have 2 years of service, which I don’t believe ex-employee had).

              1. The Other Katie*

                Unfortunately, worker protections in most of the US are minimal and constructive dismissal may not even be illegal.

                1. Steve*

                  I am not a lawyer but as far as I know, constructive dismissal is only illegal when regular dismissal would have been illegal. E.g. the dismissee is in a protected class, or it’s retaliation.

                2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  @Steve, you’re mostly correct, but some states have a more expansive definition of protected classes, or they protect a wider array of employment/labor issues (e.g., California). But assuming that other criteria were met, DDJ is right that the OP’s “unmanaging” sounds like textbook constructive dismissal. And certainly once it became retaliatory, it may have opened up OP’s company to federal and state liability under whistleblower laws. That said, there’s a lot of variation in those laws, but it’s feasible—we’d need a lot more information to make a conclusive statement on the full legal risks.

            2. only acting normal*

              I got a 1st class Masters once upon a time, but seriously 20 years later *that does not matter at all*, even 10 years ago *no one cared*, 5 years after graduation it was only a mildly useful add-on to the important bit *my work record*. And I’m in a STEM job in a STEM industry where a degree (or equivalent experience such as via an apprenticeship) is an entry requirement.
              A Bachelors degree and a stellar practical record beats half a dozen Masters with a rubbish practical record, hands down, every time (as clearly demonstrated by the LW’s situation).

          3. Akcipitrokulo*

            Her favoured members didn’t all have an advanced degree.

            “**MOST** of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters”

            So the “she didn’t even have a Masters!” is really “she didn’t even have a Masters and I don’t like her as much as I like Jane who also doesn’t have one but that’s OK because she’s one of us.”

          4. Jennifer*

            I read a super horrible article on academia earlier today that makes me very glad I never wanted a master’s. I could have done it, but it’s a lot of money for a lot of shit as far as I can tell.

            This whole article is a giant “Wow.”

        2. Natasha*

          I agree, that was a silly point to be so snobby about. I am very proud to have recently finished a Master’s degree, but most people at work and in my social life just kinda shrugged when I told them. It doesn’t really hold a candle to experience among the crowd I know. (I’m still really happy to myself, though, and not putting down anyone else who did it in any reverse snobbery.)

          1. rory*

            One of my coworkers did exactly the same work I did and did it really really well. When she then got a masters degree, I had no idea she *didn’t* have one. It really made no difference in the work as it was being done. (I think she got her degree in something a bit adjacent and so it was for moving her career in a stronger direction towards what she wanted to be doing.)

          2. Hey Karma, Over Here*

            My feelings exactly. I loved graduate school. I went part time while I worked and if I could go again, I totally would. Never got a job in that field. Stayed in my awesome job. Some friend coworkers have me a congrats card and cookies. Nobody else even knows if I have a Bachelors. That’s the real world, LW.

        3. MsMaryMary*

          I work in the same industry as the OP, and it’s not unheard of for people not to have a college degree at all, let alone a masters. It’s more common for people with 20-30+ years experience to not have a degree, but technically you can be a professional by completing a licensing course and passing an exam. Acting superior because you have a masters isn’t going to do your career any favors.

        4. SignalLost*

          That really ticked me off. (Along with other things but that hit a sore spot.) I am not better than someone with “only” a BA/BS because I have an MA. Degrees aren’t magical ranking systems where the nicest, easiest to work with, best employees all have doctorates and the jerks have HS diplomas. If that is what OP thinks, then it’s yet another part of what OP needs to understand, sooner rather than later.

          1. Julia*

            Since academia can be full of jerks for some reason, that ranking system would be severely flawed.

        5. Middle Name Jane*

          Exactly, Your Weird Uncle. Because of all the degree mills and sub-par for-profit schools out there, an advanced degree in and of itself doesn’t inherently make a person smarter or more qualified.

        6. Red 5*

          Yes, please. In my working career, I’ve been on teams with any number of different educational backgrounds.

          The number of degrees on their resumes and what schools they were from has never been a reliable indicator of their value, ability, talent, or skill. I realize that this bias is probably taught in certain schools in order to prop up the “value” of the education you’re getting there, but if this is where the OP got this idea then their education did them a disservice. You don’t necessarily need a master’s degree if you’ve got skills, experience, and drive. This woman apparently had all of that, and demonstrated it clearly to upper management on multiple occasions. No amount of degrees is more valuable than that and the faster a person can unlearn the idea that a degree makes an employee better, the faster they’ll get ahead in the world.

        7. befuddled*

          My philosophy has always been – I don’t care where/how you learned something, I just care that you know it.

          My most valuable team members have been those who continue to educate themselves on their own long after school is done. With the rate of change in today’s world, it’s hard to keep current. I admire those who put in the effort to do so.

        8. Liz T*

          Definitely this, and I think it’s indicative of having the wrong mindset when it comes to working with others. It’s also demonstrated in the way some people are advised on their resumes to list their work experience first, and educational background later on in the resume.
          Unless you’re in some specific field where having an advanced degree is necessary, having that higher degree won’t mean as much down the line once a person develops work experience.

      2. Jesca*

        This is exactly what I was coming to say. It sounds like she was hired into a specialty role and wasn’t allowed to do it. I still can’t believe this is real …

        1. Stranger than fiction*

          Yes, I can’t believe how indignant the op was about the degrees. My god.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            OP seems to have a lot of concerns. You know, OP, being angry by itself is not wrong. It’s what we do with that anger that is important.

            Please read up on constructive uses of anger. If you sincerely believed this person was not appropriate for your department, then a good way to handle that would be in a sit-down conversation with your boss. “Boss, I am concerned about the addition of Jane to our department. I do not understand how she fits in over the long haul. Can you tell me what it is you see?”

            Perhaps you feel your boss was not letting you manage your people. Okay, that works into a legit question. “Boss, I am not clear on why this person has been assigned to my department, when I do not need more people.”

          2. Elizabeth H.*

            I was especially taken aback by the indignation that somebody could come in and in two years be at a more senior level than somebody who had been there for five years. Isn’t that like the basic concept of how some roles are more senior than others and it’s the actual role and experience required for it that determines seniority, rather than how much time spent within the four walls of the company?

            1. Julia*

              It depends on the country. I assume the OP is in the US, but in Japan, for example, in most offices, people still advance by number of years they have been there.

              Then again, I doubt the OP is Japanese. The university you graduated from is very important in Japan, but having any degree more advanced than a Bachelor’s is still often seen as weird – as if you hadn’t managed to to find a job right after undergrad and thus stayed at university.

              1. Mazey*

                I’d planned to teach at university level.

                I went through pretty lock step getting two (two OP!) Master’s. Agter I got my PhD I couldn’t stand academia anymore.

                I do very personally satisfying work now that does relate to my degrees, but it’s not what I thought I’d be doing.

      3. kittymommy*

        What strikes me is the lack of self awareness that the lw has to this. LW, your are getting to hung up on the fact that you didn’t retaliate not because you realized that it was wrong, but because the opportunity wasn’t presented to you. No, you don’t get props for that as the intent was still there and remained there. Part of being a good manager is developing a good working dynamic with your team, the whole team, not a toxic one that seems to resemble high school. Another big trait good managers have is the ability to look objectively and with scrutiny their actions and work as week as their employees. Even if you ignore all the postings here, your managers, your hr department, your colleagues (minus the team) felt that these elections were so egregious that they fired a multitude of people. That is mind boggling rare. The fact that they felt it was necessary should make you re examine what you did here and your responsibility in it. Make no mistake, you, and no one else got yourself fired and you played a part in your team getting fired (in no way does that diminish their responsibility either). What tut need to do now is honestly look at your actions and most of all your mindset towards what workplace interactions should look like.

        1. Annonymouse*

          I agree.

          This reminds me very much of the letter about the mum who managed her daughter and wanted to retaliate against the person who complained that the daughter brought her baby in.

          She didn’t retaliate but only because HR didn’t disclose the complainant.

          No, you didn’t transfer the snap chat reporter but that’s either because:
          1) you don’t know who did it
          Or
          2) became very icy and retaliated or “unmanaged” them.

          Neither of those is worth praise.

          Same with “Well I didn’t fire ex employee.”

          Partly because
          1) you were already trying to make her quit so why make it more obvious?

          2) she was clearly under the watch of upper management. If you fired her how would you justify it? You’d probably be out on your ass and you know that.

          And for “I was looking out for my team”

          If you really cared about them you would have wanted them to shine and pushed them to be their best. Having someone who could have done that for your team and instead of embracing that you pushed them out and encouraged your team to be at their most unprofessional.

      4. NPG*

        I really hope that the company tries to rehire the employee that left for her manager’s (the OP’s) role.

        As for OP, well, I really hope that s/he reads all the comments on both posts and thinks about them.

      5. KapAttack*

        Also, when everyone around you is saying how awesome someone is, wouldn’t you try to see what they’re seeing? At least entertain the possibility that you’re wrong and give her a shot? Mind boggling.

      6. Annonymouse*

        Companies make it pretty clear who they value: the people who add the most value to the business.

        Value being things like profit, new clients, efficiency, excellent support so profit teams can focus on their core jobs, cost reduction or innovation.

        Businesses don’t care about your education level. They care about your experience and what you can do/are doing for them.

        Example: me. I didn’t finish high school. I got an apprenticeship in my dream industry before my final exams so left school early.

        But I have tonnes of industry specific experience across most if not all aspects in my niche industry.

        If my coworker (who has almost gotten her law degree) said “Choose. Annonymouse or me.” Or tried to force me out well she’d be gone.

        Her superior education does not overshadow my superior performance and experience.

        OP I hope you learn to asses your value to your company compared to ex employees.

        She was reporting directly to your boss as well. She was assigned special projects by them. She was supposed to be a special consultant for the team.

        These are all indications she was very highly valued and someone you should help to shine because it would only reflect well on you.

    7. BenAdminGeek*

      As someone who works in a similar industry, I’m 1) encouraged by the company and 2) horrified that a team would work this way. I have an idea of how this type of team would typically be comprised and the types of tasks they’d be accomplishing. I’m flabbergasted that a team would decide to short-change their results to focus on petty behaviors. Contracts like this with clients are a huge deal, as is client retention. The fact that this was sacrificed for some Snapchat “hilarity” is ridiculous.

      I guess I’ve been lucky to have teams that prioritize results over tribalism. My goodness.

      1. Triangle Pose*

        What is LW’s industry? I didn’t think that was in any of the LW’s letters or comments – did I miss it?

        2. Cat*

          From the LW’s comments on the original post:
          “We are in insurance/brokerage firm as part of a larger Fortune 500 company. The brewery was owned by a company whose business we were trying to attract. No one ever asked her but just assumed that she would cover for them because she had made statements that she wasn’t a drinker anyway.”

    8. Hey Nonnie*

      Wooooow. There’s just so much to unpack here.

      When YOUR MANAGER tells you what assignments to give an employee, and how she should function within your team, and you intentionally and continuously do the opposite, that is insubordination. If you disagree with your manager’s call, you TALK to them. And accept the fact that ultimately you still have to abide by your manager’s decision.

      Calling an employee a “show-off” for being really good at her job? What? If your manager, the departments she works with, and THE CLIENTS are extremely happy with her work, then it is really, REALLY out of touch to suggest that she’s bad at her job. Making these people happy is the metric that defines someone being good their job.

      Resorting to freezing the employee out so she would leave — simultaneously openly admitting that AND claiming to not understand why you’re the “scapegoat” for her horrible experience and ultimate decision to leave — just no. This is not how managers manage. This will never be considered an okay thing to do in a professional setting, especially when this was in direct defiance of your own manager’s directives.

      1. Violet Fox*

        It feels like trying to freeze out the employee so that she would quit could be seen as a form of retaliation. Also since the employee in question is female, that could also have opened up the company to liability, or to at minimum some really bad press/lost clients over it.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        If a boss develops a superstar that is a feather in the boss’ cap. OP it does not work against you if someone excels. As far as her being promoted beyond you in a few years, this happens. Sometimes someone who is subordinate zooms out beyond the boss. Again, is favorable to the boss to give the superstar that launch. If we are lucky as bosses we will have that subordinate who excels far beyond our own abilities.

        Subordinates are the “next generation” so to speak. Every manager has a responsibility to help the development of the next generation of managers. This person could have been your legacy, someone you developed who went on to do great work on their own because you helped to launch their career.

      4. Don't Take My Brewery Run Away*

        “Calling an employee a “show-off” for being really good at her job? What?”

        Exactly. OP, you’re punishing the ex-exmployee for excellence. Good companies reward excellence. That’s all I need to know.

        This is coming from someone who couldn’t care less about brewery runs, which is the issue you wrote in about. Obviously there is a hell of a lot more going on here than brewery runs. (Which is also a good reason to question the “we must always take letter writers at their word” rule.)

      5. TootsNYC*

        another one of those amazingly illogical things that will hopefully now alert the Letter Writer that she has some serious emotional work to do:

        “simultaneously openly admitting [to deliberately mistreating the employee so she would leave] AND claiming to not understand why you’re the ‘scapegoat’ for her horrible experience and ultimate decision to leave”

      6. JanetInSC*

        And she downgraded the employee’s evaluation, because she didn’t agree with the overwhelming evidence. Petty and unjustified. That’s really horrible, you know. I’m a retired teacher and that would be like changing an A to a D. Extremely unethical.

      7. agatha31*

        I remember the last letter, though I never saw the follow-up, and there was certainly some questionable statements there, but this update? I made incoherent noises at *several* points in this update. OP is 28 but the actions toward the employee AND the reactions to the firings sound like a junior high kid who just got caught doing something wrong, and instead of learning from it, just complains to their friends about how mean and awful the adults are.

        “I was already on suspension based on the exit interview investigation, poor management practices and complaints from other areas, none of which I believe are accurate.”

        And then immediately after:

        “I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to [rest of statement cut because really, all the behavior listed boils down to ‘because I wanted to’]”

        That *right there* is a poor management practice and absolutely a good reason for someone else to complain about your management.

        “As a manager, I knew my team better.”

        But you didn’t know they were engaging in bullying behavior in public on company phones, and you didn’t know about an affair going on that by your own admission, everyone else did before you.

        And for the record, just because the person being bullied can’t or doesn’t see it doesn’t mean it’s not bullying. Not only is there the chance she might see it, not only is the maliciousness still there and *absolutely* going to come across to her in other ways if you’ve developed a team to feel *that free* to be openly cruel to another employee AND A HUMAN BEING FOR PETE’S SAKE, but consider that WHOEVER complained may have felt bullied or threatened as well, and so might other people who might feel AFRAID to complain BECAUSE they saw what happened to someone else who did. Consider that since your team felt that their manager had no problem with them bullying ONE employee in such callous and dehumanizing terms, they were all the more likely to do it again and again, any time someone showed up that they decided they didn’t want around, BECAUSE THEY COULD. I am completely unsurprised that your entire team was chucked. That was mindbogglingly toxic behavior even BEFORE we take into account your attitude toward it as somehow no big deal – IN CONJUNCTION with begrudging the unliked employee for being A BETTER EMPLOYEE than the rest of you, talking about it as if she was being a better employee AT all of you! I don’t use all caps to yell, I’m just trying to highlight how the further this story goes, the worse and worse it gets as each new statement adds another layer to the awful of the last.

        “I had also downgraded her end-of-year evaluation.”

        Poor management practice, good reason for complaint.

        “I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my directorand client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me. I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing.”

        Really poor management practice, really good reason for complaint. Again, not JUST by the employee in question. If I saw my manager behaving like this, I’d be job searching elsewhere asap, because there’s no way I’m leaving my future in the hands of someone who, if she decides she doesn’t like me, is going to ignore the praise of other staff, *higher* staff, *and* clients in favor of nursing a frighteningly petty grudge. That’s a red flag in itself, even before adding in your complicity in the rest of the team treating her like garbage.

        “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.”

        So she was a jerk because she did her job well. But when she tried to be part of the team by involving them, she was a jerk. But then despite the lack of help she *still* managed to do her job well, so she’s… still a jerk?

        “My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness. I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.”

        Seniority doesn’t = better employee. Higher education doesn’t = better employee. I mean, the fact that she was quietly and successfully going above and beyond and connecting and developing sales presentations for clients while your master’s degree team was spending company time and resources on SnapChat bullying is kind of a screamingly loud example of why your company demonstrated VERY strongly that they value quality over quantity.

        “HR and my regional vice president…”

        Oh god, oh god, oh god, not going to quote because it’s just that entire paragraph, as well as this:

        “I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn; I feel like I was the scapegoat for a favored employee’s reason to leave. ”

        HR *and* a VP told you what they wanted and you directly disobeyed them, AND THEN when she still succeeded, you tried to bully her into quitting. And despite getting many chances to change your behavior (all those meetings, and their attempts to tell you what they expected out of you in relation to that employee), YOU KEPT GOING, actively and willfully engaging in – again, your word – insubordination. AND you scapegoated the good employee based on your resentment of her superior performance with an ‘inferior’ education. No one, NO ONE who knows what good management looks like is going to buy that you did nothing wrong to the employee who was performing above the rest of the team, AND that your boss was somehow ‘mean’ or ‘wrong’ for firing you and your team for the negative things you all engaged in.

        “Being dedicated to your work doesn’t mean you can’t have fun at the same time.”

        Unless you don’t like them, in which case being dedicated to your work means you’re a jerk and need to be ‘un-managed’ out pronto? Where was the fun here? You’re focused on the drinking which probably would have gone uncommented on, and you’re completely brushing over all the other ‘fun’ stuff you engaged in which boiled down to actively sabotaging your own company’s chance at success based on an illogical grudge.

        “My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.”

        Yeah the loudest noise I made was at this bit. No. No you can’t. The “action” that was taken against ex-employees that were damaging a reputation, a team, and careers, was when you were all fired for your very very very bad actions. And really, here’s the problem: you are convinced you are a fantastic manager, but you ENCOURAGED your team in their treatment of her by your own behavior toward her. You ENCOURAGED a hostile working environment (in which, as was made clear by someone else complaining, more than just she didn’t feel welcome there). YOU were responsible for maintaining and enforcing acceptable workplace behavior, but you did the EXACT OPPOSITE of that, and maintained and enforced a team of petty bullies. Now, they are all adults and all had a choice as to how to behave (again, demonstrated by whoever complained being adult enough to understand how wildly inappropriate that was and advise the company so they could do damage control before it got even WORSE), but you ARE partially responsible for your team all losing their jobs, because YOU led them to believe that their behavior was not just acceptable, but encouraged.

        So here’s the thing. You were probably doing some things right to keep your job for all those years. That’s a decent chunk of time, and you’re still pretty young. Sooooo… please learn from this. Please read and accept Alison’s advice. It’s really really good advice, and while you unfortunately can’t undo the past (including the potential damage you’ve just inflicted on your own career for at least awhile), you can make sure that future you learns a lesson from this and becomes a *better* manager than you already were.

        And most importantly, absolutely DO NOT get involved in trying to retaliate against the ex-employee or your ex-employers for any of this. Unfortunately you’ve probably already lost several years out of your career that you can’t use as a reference, your biggest hope right now is that this disaster story doesn’t spread industry-wide. But that hope is going to grow exponentially smaller if you demonstrate to your ex-employers that not only didn’t you learn a lesson from this, but you and your team are willing to try and ‘gang up’ on them to continue to act petty and vengeful on your own time as well as on theirs. You really, really don’t want that to be the story other employers in your industry all know about you and/or your teammates.

        1. This Daydreamer*

          Yes. This. All of this.

          LW, please read the above comment. Then walk away, sleep on it, think about it, rage against how unfair it feels. Then do the same thing over and over until you start seeing the truth in it. Take it step by step. Point by point. Read some of the other comments here and on your previous post.

        2. atma*

          I also wanted to come back to the point “I’m not sure what lesson(s) I am supposed to learn”
          I haven’t seen this in the comments, it’s possible that I’ve missed it.

          You came to this workplace when you were kind of young. Maybe you picked up the workplace culture and took it to be the standard. Maybe you had to adjust to fit in.

          Please consider that you have been conditioned to a very unusual culture, and, in order to move forward with your (working) life you are going to have to re-learn. The things you write, the things you’ve done, seem normal to you because of that. They are not really normal, and it will harm you to hold on to them. It may be difficult to change your perspective. Please try. You have a long life ahead of you.

          That is possibly also the only thing you can say about this workplace when you interview for a new job. You gradually realized the workplace culture was not a great fit.

          Good luck!

          1. Yep, me again*

            Okay, first: I got a lot of emotions because though I am not the ex-employee here, I had VERY similar to what ex-employee experienced. Almost to the letter. My ex-boss hired all her friends she used to work with and I and other rep were odd-men out. Projects and assignments were taken from him but it would have happened to me. I was told I couldn’t stand up for myself when one of the reps harrassed me because he was writing paychecks for the whole company. So yeah, I got some feels about this. In a way, I hope my ex-boss and her cronies are fired because they just got a new EVP of sales and they couldn’t prospect to save their lives (yes, sales reps who can’t prospect. This is the ONE company that never needed reps to do so.)
            But that’s therapy time for another day. On to my reply to a reply (maybe we’ll start a chain!).
            The Reply of the reply of lessons LW could learn:
            I’ve seen a general courseness with other persons when they spend more than 5 years at a company. I don’t know if it’s lack of diversity or simply being in the same place for five years and you develop a superiority about yourself and your work. You become more abrupt, less tolerant of mistakes from other people. Rudeness as well. It’s like you become a crusty old man who yells at small children and dogs. That filter you’re supposed to have to make it congenial and open becomes clogged and you just don’t understand what you’re doing and you don’t care. You’re ‘valuable’ to the company and this person doesn’t matter.
            That’s all the sympathy I can conjure for the LW. It seems like she goes from bad to worse and will continue to do so with each submission. I would suggest she not give an update for a while. She needs to heal a bit because regardless of how she acted, she is hurting.
            And I would not work with the same people again LW. If you care about their professional development, it’s not working with the same people over and over again. They, as well as you, will do much better in other environments working with other people, getting other experience, and learning different things.

          2. Decima Dewey*

            Let me try to keep this constructive:

            *Throughout your career, you will work with, manage, and report to people you don’t like, or who don’t like you. You don’t have to become BFFs with them, but you do have to find a way to work with them.

            *As manager, you will have to contend with policies you disagree with, instructions you think are counterproductive. If you can make a reasonable argument against the policy or the instructions, you can try to change it or them. But if TPTB indicate they aren’t going to change the policy, you deal with the policy as it stands.

            *Your team wasn’t as cohesive as you thought. Someone thought the snapchat comments were bad enough to inform HR. No one took you aside to say “You know that Lucinda reports to Aloysius, and they’re dating, right?”

            *Being a manager means being friendly with your team., but not an actual friend. There will be times when you’ll have to make someone work overtime when they don’t want to, or when you’ll have to give someone unpleasant feedback. Something you can’t do if you try to be BFFs with your team.

            It’s likely to be quite some time before you are at the level you were. You have time to learn better.

        3. Jen*

          You did a wonderful job articulating my thoughts on this.

          I work for the Canadian federal government, and our harassment policy is pretty solid – harassment doesn’t have to be directed at a person for it to be reported. Basically, if I’m talking to Guybrush and say something negative about culture X, to which Threepwood belongs, *even if Threepwood isn’t there and didn’t hear it*, Threepwood can still report me for harassment. So just because the employee never saw the Snapchats or became directly aware of them or whatever, she can still report them as harassment — and bullying, which it absolutely is.

          2. agatha31*

            Thank you! And I really really love the MI reference as well. :) Still reinstall and play some of those games from time to time!

            Side note on that subject, since reading AAM, I’ve begun using fictional characters instead of “John/Jane Doe” in my in-office documentation. It makes it WAY funner when I’m typing out some pretty dry procedural instructions to be able to give examples using Ada Doom or Ford Prefect or Lady Catherine de Bourgh!

        4. CMF*

          You do an amazing job explaining exactly what the OP did wrong – piece by piece – something she’s having difficulty figuring out herself. I hope she’ll read this and take your comments to heart.

          The one part that stuck out to me that I wish you’d elaborated on was that she couldn’t understand why alcohol was a problem when they weren’t actually drinking at the office. The three martini lunch is a thing of the past – people do not go out and drink in the middle of the day anymore – whether you’re trying to get the brewery business or not. It’s an office, not a frat house.

          1. agatha31*

            Quite frankly it’s because it’s not really within my experience! My office experience is limited to one very small office where nobody drinks, so I’m glad other people with more experience are piping up on that front. Heck I’m an introverted non-drinker, so even with more experience I’m not sure I’d be able to have a very informed opinion on that! The stuff I did tackle – well heck, that’s all behavior that in *any* field I’ve worked in, it would still be *way* out of line to do any of that stuff, so it was a lot easier to tackle.

            And thank you for your kind words! I’m blushing at the attention my comment received. :)

        5. CocoB*

          Stunning to hear complete admission of insubordination, yet LWs shock and unbelief that was fired and given no severance.

    11. Wendy Darling*

      This message made me think of something the brilliant Mallory Ortberg said in this week’s Dear Prudence podcast — to paraphrase, if anything you are saying sounds like something that would be said by a villain in an 80s skiing movie, you need to stop and consider your choices.

      “No one got hurt except for someone’s feelings” is dangerously like something someone wearing a monogrammed neon forehead sweatband would say, is my point here.

  3. Justme*

    I hope this entire situation is a wake-up call to the letter writer about how to not manage people in the future.

    1. ...with a K*

      This. I would spend some time thinking about this because your next interviewer is going to ask why you were terminated at your last job. You want to have an answer that doesn’t try to defend your actions.

    2. paul*

      I was wondering about the odds of that. I’m not really a manager (thank god) so I’m not privy to a lot of PiP/performance issue type stuff. Have managers that have dealt with this type of worldview seen any success in someone turning it around? or does it generally lead to either dysfunction or dismissal?

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Not when there’s this level of retrenchment. I really hope OP will reevaluate because I want her to succeed. But that won’t be possible if she keeps clinging to the idea that she did nothing wrong.

    3. Catalin*

      LW, would you want to be managed (or un-managed) the way you treated the former employee? What if you were the one who didn’t ‘fit in’ and had things taken away from you without good cause?

      1. Flabberghasted of HR*

        “What if you were the one who didn’t ‘fit in’ and had things taken away from you without good cause?”
        We already know what the LW thinks about a situation in which they feel that to be the case because they’ve told us how they feel about being fired – they are angry, feel unfairly treated, and want to sue the person they consider responsible.

        1. Language Student*

          And that’s when there was a good reason for the dismissal. I think OP is too focused on being cliquey with her subordinates and not focused enough on doing right by the business, her whole team – not just her drinking buddies – and her manager.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Management is a lonely job. One must find friends in other places that are not work.
            OP, your choices are you can have friends at work OR you can have a management job.
            You have to pick because you can only have one, not both.

          2. TrainerGirl*

            This. I’ve never seen a situation where a manager only treating their chummy subordinates well work out. Being friends with subordinates is one of the most un-managerial things you can do. I’m glad to see that the company acted quickly and decisively.

      2. Kate 2*

        Yes! OP you have a lot of classist prejudices you should think about. Namely that 1) having an advanced degree makes you better/smarter than those who don’t, and 2) people who don’t have master’s degrees aren’t smart and driven.

        How would you feel if you were the employee? How would you feel if these things were said about you by a manager with a Ph.D.?

        Also, there is nothing wrong with going above and beyond at your job. That’s how you get promoted. Is there any way that employee could have been good at her job in a way you wouldn’t find “show-offy”?

        1. Bunny*

          I have less than two years of college. I also have 25 years experience in broadcast news, with two networks under my belt and am continuing to work in a top 10 market. I was an adjunct professor of journalism for 5 years. I was on my own at 19. I couldn’t afford a degree.

          Tell me again about your masters. And your debt.

        2. Anon55*

          I really like that you brought up the “how would you feel if you were treated this way?”. That would be a great place for the OP to start understanding why her actions were so wrong on so many levels. I’d also say that a professional would probably be really helpful in getting to the bottom of why the OP isn’t able to empathize.

        3. MadGrad*

          Heck, as someone WITH a master’s I got offended. If trying hard at a place where you will get paid and more clearly rewarded for performance is “show-off-y”, I can’t imagine what this person thought they were achieving with higher education.

        4. bean*

          How would you feel if you were the employee? How would you feel if these things were said about you by a manager with a Ph.D.?

          Every time the letter writer mentioned this, my eyes rolled so hard I thought they were going to get stuck.

          Letter Writer, if you’re reading this: your comments are offensive to people *with* post-graduate degrees, too. How dare you use that to imply that you have greater value than another person? Take a moment and recall that to be able to do an MBA, a person must have a certain amount of privilege in the first place (finances, etc., the ability to not work for a certain amount of time), and remember that even then, not all MBA programs have the same return on investment – so just the fact of having earned one doesn’t actually mean you spent your time or money wisely.

          And I don’t normally put this out there (at least not in this way), but since this seems to be the language you speak: I have two master’s degrees and a doctorate, and precisely zero of those degrees were necessary for me to see that you are either really struggling with self-awareness or severely in denial, and that you appear to be stomping your feet and throwing the 28-year-old version of a tantrum here. Taking action against the ex-employee would be an incredibly inappropriate escalation of that tantrum; there is no possible happy end to that story.

          So please, take this in the spirit in which it is intended – which is to say, I do absolutely think things can get better for you, and I hope that they do – Get Thee To A Therapist. Be prepared to do some digging and reflect on ideas that may be challenging. And be prepared that you may need to develop your own work ethic. It will likely be difficult and it will take time, but it will also be worth it – it will pay dividends, both professionally and personally. And if you decide to take those steps – to make that first appointment and show up to it, and to go to that second appointment and that third appointment, and keep on going even when it feels difficult – you should be incredibly proud of yourself. It will be well worth putting in the effort to figure out how to manage yourself and work with integrity, and learn to treat people with respect, not because it’s policy or because someone else dictated how to act in a given situation, but because you will develop an internal compass. It will be a process, but if you are willing to engage it and work at it, over time you will see progress.

    4. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      I hope so to but the comments on the original post and her follow up here don’t leave me with a lot of hope for that.

      OP, you just lost a job because of YOUR actions. I hope you understand that. This is entirely on you and how you functioned as a manager. From the follow up it sounds like this wasn’t just about not liking her personally, but that you had professional jealousy to the point that you wanted to torpedo her because you didn’t think she deserved advancement your bosses wanted for her. You were actively working against your direct report’s advancement out of jealousy and pettiness. That is incredibly immature.

      You very clearly were not ready to be a manager. You still aren’t if you can’t step back from this situation and see what you did wrong. Your boss, your boss’s boss, your HR department, a professional management consultation (Alison), and a LARGE working community are all telling you that YOU messed up and need to do better. What are the chances all of those people are wrong and you are the only one who is right?

      I urge you to take a breath, step back, and reevaluate. Read the comments on the original post. Read the ones here. Read Alison’s responses. Read books about management. Read other blogs and articles about management. Read them a few times. Take notes. Look for similar advice.

      You messed up. You had consequences for it. That stings. Don’t dig in out of wounded pride. Dedicate yourself to being better so your career trajectory doesn’t suffer.

      2. Blue Anne*

        Her entire team lost their jobs because of her actions, really. If they had been managed more constructively, they may not have gotten to the low point they reached.

        1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

          Exactly. That her whole team lost their jobs and that she wants to take action again the ex-employee tells me she really just isn’t getting how egregious her actions were.

          Alison, (or anyone) how common is it for an entire dysfunctional team to be let go like this instead of just redistributed? I kind of applaud the company here for their actions.

          OP I am sorry to repeat myself here, but please do some research into why allowing your team to function as it did was a problem. And please adjust your ideas of how valuable someone is based on what degree they do or don’t have compared to you.

          Also, look at future handbooks regarding alcohol. Just because you weren’t drinking on site doesn’t mean it was ok to drink during the work day (I assume that was what was happening and not just purchasing alcohol to drink later – it is a little unclear)

          1. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

            We talk a lot here about toxic work environments skewing our idea of what is normal and what is ok and what should and shouldn’t happen. I think what happened here is a little of the same, but in a different way.

            Not only did the team lose their jobs, they likely have it in their heads that this is totally appropriate behavior for work because it is how their team functioned, save 1 (or 2 – with someone reporting the snapchat bullying I get the feeling that the team wasn’t as cohesive and as on board with everything as the OP is making out). I hope they do some self reflection here and can move on and aren’t digging in their heels as much as the OP is.

            If by chance any of the team members that lost their jobs are reading this – please read the comments here and on the original post. Please make an effort to understand why what you did was not ok and why you lost your job because of it, even though it was sanctioned by your direct manager. Learn from this so you don’t make the same mistakes in the future.

            1. DietCokeHead*

              I agree, I also felt bad for the team who both lost their jobs and also have had their views towards behavior on the job (brewery runs, bullying other employees) massively skewed by a manager who encouraged this behavior. Letter writer, you mention that you and your team still want to take action against this woman. I think the best thing to do for your team is acknowledge that you made errors in management and focus on moving forward and tinned learning from this experience.

              1. Akcipitrokulo*

                Feel bad to an extent… but…

                They were deliberately bullying a team member.

                I’m in the UK. It’s a lot harder to fire someone here, especially with that length of service. If you just fire them because it’s not working out, or even if theyve done something wrong once and get sacked instead of warnings through company’s formal disiplinary procedure, you’ll probably be giving them a few thousand in the near future after it goes to a tribunal.

                They would get fired on the spot here for gross misconduct. And would get laughed out of a tribunal.

              2. MsM*

                I think the best thing for the “team” is to take a break from each other for a good long while. Maybe they can continue the personal friendships once those can be purely personal, but the toxic hive mind attitude and putting the happiness of the group above all other considerations needs to go.

              3. Annonymouse*

                It came across to me that LW is the one spearheading the get back/sue ex employee.

                How do you propose that will go?

                Lawyer: tell me about your complaint and why you think you have a case.

                LW: after mistreating an employee to make them quit, I’m talking minor things like taking away their projects assigned to them by the director, downgrading their end of year assessments, excluding them from team building/social activities that were on the clock and refusing to have anyone help them when they asked, they reported my behaviour to management.

                I was investigated and my whole team was fired as a result. They clearly sabotaged is so we can sue, right?

                Lawyer: what’s this persons name and number?

                LW: Ex Employee 555 phone number.

                Lawyer (on phone): Hello? Am I speaking with ex employee? Great! I’m an employment lawyer and LW is sitting in my office. Hearing what they’ve said, I think you have an excellent claim against them. I’d love to meet with you and maybe have you as a client.

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  That would be against legal ethics for any lawyer to do that. You can’t take what one client tells you and use it against them for another.

                2. Annonymouse*

                  I know, I know.

                  Just that’s how I’d see it play out in a sitcom or watch the lawyer just shake their head, face palm and point a two the door because they’re too dumbfounded/shocked to speak.

          2. SystemsLady*

            I know somebody like one of the long-term employees OP mentioned and was sad to hear they were fired recently. But they had at least had a manager decent enough to give them a chance to improve rather than let them get upset that the department was changing.

          3. Hey Nonnie*

            I can’t believe that the OP thought that real-world working experience didn’t “count.” Why does she think career advancement happens?

        2. aebhel*

          This. They all behaved unprofessionally, but I have to wonder if all of those people would have acted like that under a better manager. For their sakes, I hope not–and for OP’s sake, I hope he can take a step back and learn something from this.

          1. Czhorat*

            A better manager would have reined it in long before this. Cut the weekly brewery runs, told the “clique” to play nicely with their new colleague, etc.

            1. motherofdragons*

              Right, and I would add: modeled positive interactions with/respect toward the colleague. Stuff like that has a trickle-down effect.

              2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Or at the very least not entertained the plotting about the ex-employee. The fact that the team was aware of the “unmanaging,” active efforts at exclusion, and redistribution of the ex-employee’s work to “put her in her place” indicates a complete lack of professional boundaries, professionalism, and cabalistic thinking. And honestly, if the complaining employees were properly managed and kept raising these issues, a functional manager would have placed them on progressive discipline instead of coming up with new ways to haze the ex-employee (I also suspect some team members may have required firing).

        3. WerkingIt*

          To be fair, the team lost their jobs because of THEIR actions. The whole group was a mess. Beer runs? Mean Snapchats? Shutting this employee out? Sounds like they all had some big chips on their shoulders and were not willing to welcome the new team member.

          The stuff they are complains about sounds like pure jealousy.

          1. Anne (with an "e")*

            I hope the person who reported the Snapchats to HR didn’t lose their job. The Snapchat reporter sounds like a decent person, imo.

      4. Kyrielle*

        This is all so very true. And OP…I really want to try to convince you to change your opinions.

        But I’m not going to try. You’ll either eventually come to that conclusion on your own, or you won’t.

        What I hope you will hear, at a minimum, is that _whatever you think of the situation_, most places, managing a team in this way is going to be grounds for firing, and viewed poorly.

        Specifically, you are likely to face consequences (including firing) if you:

        * Break company policy, whether fun or not. (Read and know your policies.) Most places, this will include possession of alcohol on company property (possibly including trunks in the parking lot), and coming back to work after drinking (especially if one is tipsy, or drunk).

        * Treat others poorly (speak of them poorly, be rude to them, cut them out of advancement opportunities, give them extra workload above and beyond other people at a similar level), especially but not limited to cases where it is based on a protected class (age over 40; gender; etc.). See also company policy, which will often have specific rules. Even without those specific rules, poor treatment based on a protected class is illegal and most companies will move quickly to get rid of the risk if you are doing that.

        * Transfer assignments given to one team member to another, when the assignment was given by someone higher-up and you didn’t check with them. This is a more grey area, but I would assume it’s not safe until you have learned company culture and asked your boss. If it is part of a pattern of poor treatment of someone, it is all the more likely to be acted on.

        * All of this will be worse if the person you are acting against is someone who reports to you (and in many cases, if it is someone junior to you who does not report to you).

        * Also, supporting/condoning anyone who reports to you in any of the above actions will also be taken very poorly.

        * Take unilateral actions that cause the company to lose business. Companies are sometimes willing to risk losing business in order to take a stand or because they’re pivoting in a different direction, but that sort of decision either originates in the C-suite, or is okayed by the C-suite, usually. If your actions negatively impact the bottom line and/or company reputation, unless a) you are very apologetic and b) they believe it was a genuine mistake that you are correcting, they will not be happy.

        At the very least, I hope you will understand these sorts of things have consequences, and that they are _very, very likely_ to get you fired. From a practical perspective, whether you agree that they should or not, if you don’t want this cycle to repeat, you need to not repeat your part in it. You don’t control others’ part in it. You do control yours.

        I do also hope some day that you’ll understand that they are right. But you don’t have to think that to understand that these are very, very common consequences for these sorts of actions.

        1. BF50*

          I would also add:
          *downgrading an performance evaluation by removing praise sales staff, your direct and customers.
          *Viewing someone succeeding at their job as “showing off”, not seeing a reason to go above and beyond, and viewing someone else’s successes as something done to make others look bad.

          1. Kyrielle*

            Agreed on the first. On the second, it’s not a problem until it influences actions (which admittedly it usually will – bias like that is hard to completely weed out of actions).

            But, as I tell my kids, they’re allowed to be sad, or angry, or whatever they’re feeling. They’re just not allowed to act in the wrong way to deal with it. (You’re mad at me? Be mad. But don’t kick me. Or downgrade my review unfairly, in the case of a manager.)

            1. Hey Nonnie*

              It’s emotionally healthier and certainly less stressful to not view someone else’s achievements as a personal slight, though. That’s going to be a miserable way to live. Realizing that not everything is about you is going to make you feel better about yourself in the long run.

              1. Kyrielle*

                Agreed! I was listing things that would get you fired, though. _Acting_ as if you view them that way might get you fired. Feeling it, if you keep it truly hidden, won’t. :)

      5. Purple Jello*

        A good manager even manages the staff she doesn’t like, not just her friends or the staff she does like.

        2. TheOtherLiz*

          Yes. And why? Because it’s their job, this isn’t Mean Girls “You Can’t Sit With Us.” And because this is how you end up with homogenous workplaces. Which is a BAD thing.

          1. A.N.O.N.*

            Particularly that LW’s perspective on it in the update: “I accept responsibility for my actions and understand why I was fired. I caused harm to someone else for no fault of her own…”

      6. Say what, now?*

        OP, Blue Anne makes a good point. Your actions caused your team to also lose their jobs. You’ve defended your actions by saying that you were looking out for the best interest of your team but your team suffered mightily for what you did. By not following your directors instructions to the point of insubordination, allowing your team to ostracize a coworker and then to top it off with not correcting them when they were in violation of their company’s code of conduct… oy, you unleashed a load of hurt on them.

        For the record, clients expect above and beyond. It’s not showing off to do more than asked for as long as it doesn’t negatively affect the work you’re able to do for other projects. She sounds stellar and you should have been raising her up, even if it meant that she would be advanced beyond your level. It will always look good on you if you are able to coach your team members to greater heights.

        1. Coalea*

          “You should have been raising her up” – so true! The ability to recognize, train, and advance star employees is an important management skill!

          1. Saint Cynicism*

            Probably not in the same field (I’m retail), but yes do this.

            I’m low level shift management, and I actually trained the guy I now report to. Twice. Once for entry-level, again after he was promoted to the same position I currently hold.

            Recognizing when someone is a better fit for advancement than you are is tremendously important. It means you recognize your own shortcomings, as well as understand the big picture. At the end of the day, if the company does well, typically you benefit too.

            1. Salamander*

              Yes. Paying it forward helps. It’s always a positive to help a talented person move beyond me. We don’t have to step on each other or climb over each other to advance.

              Besides, you never know when that person who is above you will see an opportunity that you are uniquely suited for and return the favor. It’s a win-win.

            2. TootsNYC*

              I would also say that him being more suited to management than you is NOT a “shortcoming” on your part. Maybe a limitation, but even that implies that your current job is lesser. But it’s not.

              Being really good at a job lower on the org chart is one of the most valuable traits.

              But you are right–whether it’s a shortcoming, a limitation, or even an aptitude–it’s important to know and accept your skills and aptitudes.

        2. CrazyEngineerGirl*

          I’m actually wondering how the team members that were fired along with OP are feeling. I know OP says that they and their team are wondering about taking action, implying everyone is on the same page… but I wonder if this is really the case. I know that they all did some truly awful and inconceivable things, and they all deserved to be fired. But with a bit of distance and the fallout of being fired (and under these conditions) I hope that they come to see the bigger picture and distance themselves from the OP. I can see how younger and less experienced employees (as the OP states/implies) could have gone in bad directions under the management of OP. Not an excuse, because they should have known better as human beings, but perhaps under better management some/all of them wouldn’t have behaved this way.

              1. TootsNYC*

                No, I think for hers as well. I think she did a lot of reacting to them.

                Now, she screwed up SO much. All her mistakes are totally on her.

                But they are horrible people (remember, THEY are the ones who were making nasty Snapchats), and she will never learn the things this can teach her if they are still around.

                It may be that there’s a really bad combo here as well–so there needs to be a big break.

                I’m reminded of Doc Gooden, who went into drug rehab and ignored the lesson Keith Hernandez told him: You need to dump every friend you have and get new ones. And then he was using again, pretty soon, because he wouldn’t.

      7. MCMonkeyBean*

        She even used herself the term “unmanaging.” She was actively and intentionally doing the opposite of what her job required her to do for this woman (and what her boss explicitly asked her to do on multiple occasions apparently). And still sees no problem with that.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          We don’t get paid for doing the opposite of what the bosses want. And this is normal for any job.

          We stay employed by finding out what the boss wants and doing that activity.

  4. pammat*

    It sure doesn’t sound like this was a learning experience for the LW.

    And that’s a shame.

    Because what she hasn’t learned may well lose her another job.

    1. KBo*

      exactly, that’s the most horrible part ( outside of this rationale “it’s not bullying because the target isn’t on SnapChat” – my mouth literally dropped open at this), that LW isn’t displaying any self-awareness and continued to double down that her methods (un-managing, she called it) were right.

      We have a saying in Jamaica “who don’t hear will feel”, and I worry that LW will stand in her own way of moving forward.

        1. Kbo*

          Use away. Jamaican aphorisms are pithy and awesome all at once.

          I hope the LW really can see this one day

      3. Julia*

        We say that in German, too! ‘They who cannot hear, must feel’ – which means, if you don’t listen to people’s warnings and hurt yourself (literally or career-wise or whatever), maybe they you’ll learn. I hope OP will.

    2. offonaLARK*

      I agree. If OP could read some of the comments and advice from the original thread, and really take them to heart, she could eventually move past this.

      OP, you are probably not meant for management. You currently seem to have a misunderstanding about how to manage, and how to take responsibility for your own actions. No one “got you fired” but you.

      1. AD*

        Exactly. This is a sad update and I’m not sure the OP is open to learning from this at this time, which is unfortunate….because she’s setting herself up for failure in future roles (especially if she continues to want to manage people).

      2. AndersonDarling*

        Yes, I get the feeling that the OP was confusing managing a work team for managing a group of friends. The OP is defending her actions in a way that someone would defend their actions in a circle of friends on a playground. “But we are all smarter. I didn’t like her. When the boss gave her special assignments, I took them away and gave them to you guys. I let you party at lunch. When people said nice things about her, I told them they were wrong. I let you say mean things online about her.” You can keep friends this way, but you can’t keep a job.

        1. Rana*

          And, honestly, this is an unhealthy way to handle one’s friendships too. It’s immature and toxic.

        2. Lora*

          You can keep friends this way?

          …What kind of friends?

          I generally stick with “sharing common interests”, “hanging out drinking wine and gossiping”, “I babysit their kids, they pet-sit while I’m away”, “having backyard BBQs together” and “taking excess zucchini from my garden” as a means of maintaining friendships.

          OP if this whole tearing other people down together thing is how you conduct a friendship, please talk to a counselor or therapist of some sort. Healthy friendships are built on shared experiences and interests, respect, trust, reciprocity, stuff like that.

            1. Lora*

              Ha! I was thinking more like knitting, music, maybe professional associations.

              Trying to think how I met my various friend circles, other than work. Exercise classes, my Grumpy Divorced Lady support group, my neighbors and I walk our dogs together. Friends of friends who turned out to like the same music, so we go to concerts together. Acquaintances who also were into cooking and gardening so we take turns hosting dinner parties. Another two acquaintances who became better friends because we like fixing old cars and DIY projects. A few who I met at parties who also like karaoke and board games.

              Maybe learn to play an instrument and join a band or something? A craft stitch and bitch group?

              1. kapers*

                I’d bet anything these people are NOT her friends and they have no respect for her. They’re a bunch of bullies and she was– and still is–a pushover for them. They used her for plum assignments, privileges, slacking off, flouting rules, and to avoid repercussions. Doesn’t sound like true friendship to me. I bet this clique was more interested in having the boss in their gang than in her genuine friendship.

                I predict that in a year she will not be friends with any of these people, because they won’t have use for her anymore.

        3. Kbo*

          Mature adult friendships can’t be kept the way the LW was operating. Sadly, her team members are in for a shock at any future jobs they get.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      Oh, gosh, yes. I feel like the best possible outcome of this would be that OP would realize that she has a lot of learning to do – but unfortunately I don’t think she has realized that. Or at least not yet.

      OP, you have gotten a lot of good advice here and on the original thread. I hope one day you’ll be able to read through it and do some introspection about where you went wrong and how to avoid repeating these mistakes in the future.

    4. Ms. Minn*

      Agreed. I hope that with time and maybe a career coach, the LW will get some much-needed perspective on how she handled this job and situation. Maybe she isn’t right for management (not everyone is and that’s okay).

      I handled some things in my career during my 20s (and not to lie, my early 30s too!) that at the time I thought were the right way, the only way (mine). Now with the benefit of time and more experience, I cringe.

      As to her comment about thinking Allison would agree with her because she was the manager: this is exactly why I’ve read AAM for years and typically agree with Allison’s advice. Because Allison is impartial and gives a good reality check on situations, even if the writers may not be happy with it. In this case, I think the LW was looking for validation, not advice.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Yep. To me, the comment that she thought writing to AAM as a manager would mean Alison would take her side really highlighted the overall naïveté.

    5. CrazyEngineerGirl*

      What she hasn’t learned may also keep her from getting another job! There’s little chance that the job she was just fired from won’t come up. Even if it’s not ‘why were you fired’ there’s going to be plenty of questions about what she did as an employee and a manager. Based on her current reactions and responses, I’m not sure OP would see an issue with saying something like… “A difficult employee I managed was one that was hired without my approval, and I didn’t like her so I just un-managed her and let other employees make fun of her on Snapchat. And it worked too! She eventually quit.”

    6. OhBehave*

      How this LW got to management levels is beyond me. As I was reading her comment on the original post, I was really skeptical. LW learned absolutely nothing during this period of time. I really hope she takes some time and comes back to these letters and rereads what she wrote and the comments provided. This is a chance to learn and improve. It’s also a wake up call that’s sorely needed. Managers should not be cozy friends with those they manage.

  5. caledonia*

    There are many aspects to this update but the only one I’m going to comment on is the one about education – undertaking any further education such as a degree, let alone professional qualifications or masters degrees does not make anyone else smart. Some of the smartest people in the world will be those without a degree.

    1. Grayson*

      The assertion that because the ex-employee “only had a bachelors” was frustrating for me too. I think the weight certain individuals place on having a degree is not necessary realistic. I have a bachelors, and a masters, but I’m not using either of them in my current job. Smdh.

      1. Cactus*

        I agree. I have an AAS with a direct concentration in my field and my co-worker constantly reminds me that if I want to move up in the word I need a Bachelor’s Degree “because it shows dedication.” Nope.

        1. Archie Goodwin*

          I have a bachelor’s, no master’s. Got some major non-professional recognition for one of my hobbies earlier this year. (Not to brag, but…)

          It’s really not always about the degree.

          1. Amber T*

            When I was two years out of college (Bachelors degree), I went on a date with a college senior. He wanted to be a specific type of social worker where you need a Masters to even start your career (so he said, I don’t know the truth to that), so his plan was to go to grad school directly out of undergrad. I’m in a line of work where another degree *might* be useful in the waaaay future if I stick to this career path (and it might not, honestly). So after we did that whole “what do you do/want to do?” awkward bit of a first date, he said “You’re not going to grad school? Don’t you want to do something with your life?”

            The date didn’t get any better. I skipped over the obvious fake SOS text to a friend and told him I needed to leave because I wanted to play with my parents’ dog. (He still asked for a second date.)

            1. Dust Bunny*

              There are fields where you need a Master’s basically just to get in the door. Libraries and archives pretty much require an MLIS, baseline. It’s sometimes possible to get a job without one, but a lot of people get the degree and then have to do something else until they find an open position, and not having one can limit your access to professional societies and opportunities.

              Don’t get me started on my opinion about this.

              1. Julianne*

                Depending on your state/district, a Master’s is an expectation to remain in K-12 teaching, too. My district rarely hires teachers without a Master’s, and it’s required to advance to a professional teaching license in my state. (This isn’t the case everywhere, though.)

            3. sap*

              “I need to leave because I want to do something other than be on this date.”

              “So when can I see you again?”

              That is a college senior who needs to get some work experience before grad school if I ever saw one.

              1. TheCupcakeCounter*

                Ha! Yes – it is amazing how much different real life is compared to HS and college.

            4. MSW*

              Social worker here. A master’s degree is usually necessary to advance in this field (especially because it leads to licensure, which is highly desired and often required for many clinical mental health positions). This guy should keep in mind though that not all fields require an advanced degree to be successful. My sister has a bachelor’s in biology/chemistry and was making the same amount as I was before I took a supervisory position.

        2. Dolorous Bread*

          Can confirm. I have a technical diploma for a concentration I’m not even in anymore but I’m at a senior management level professionally. Once you have had a few jobs, good employers won’t care where you went to school a decade+ ago.

          1. Your Weird Uncle*

            I agree. I have a master’s degree and am not working in my field. What my master’s DID do for me was open up some connections that I wouldn’t have had otherwise just due to being in the right place at the right time, for which I am grateful, but I would never say that having it meant I was smarter, more dedicated, or in any way more deserving of a job than someone who didn’t have one.

            1. AMPG*

              Ironically, I’m not using my master’s in my professional life but can call on what I learned to discuss our current political situation (I studied international development, with a focus on democratic governance).

      2. Southern Ladybug*

        I have a doctorate and found the point offensive. Sometimes letters after the name matter for job classification etc. And I would like my doc to have an MD or DO for obvious reasons. But damn, the best practitioners I know in my field often don’t have all the letters. And they are able to move up based on years of experience.

        2. Rana*

          Same here. My PhD came with some certain skills that have utility in my current profession, but many of my senior-level colleagues have BAs or less – a few are even entirely self-taught – but what makes them special is their years of experience and their professional contributions, not their degrees.

          1. Optimistic Prime*

            This. My mentor has less education than me, but he is fantastic at what he does and has a lot more experience than I do.

      3. Say what, now?*

        Same here, Grayson. Having a bachelors degree… ANY bachelors degree was a prerequisite to my promotion so I’m glad to have had it done so I could advance (and also because it did me good to continue to learn), but I could have had a degree in literally anything to meet that requirement. What got me the promotion was my dedication to quality, moral standards, and work ethic… also my ability to stay out of a whole lotta drama. We have a whole herd of drama-making llamas here. :(

        1. Kay*

          This happened to my old grand-boss. The company required him to have a Masters (ANY Masters) to be promoted to his position. What did he get his degree in? He get a Masters of Music in Opera Performance. He manages a building/facility (granted, it’s a theatre, but he does absolutely nothing related to performance, he is in charge of the administration). He was (and presumably still is) an amazing boss/grand-boss with a great work ethic. Because he is an intelligent, organized, hard-working, great-at-client-facing, committed-to-the-company, firm-but-friendly, professional person. Not because he has a Masters.

          1. rory*

            I had no idea that was a Masters you could do, and now I desperately want to audit some classes in that. :D

            1. mrs__peel*

              Me too!!

              (I wonder if you can get your Masters in that field if you participate in every class with great enthusiasm, but can’t actually sing…)

              1. Kay*

                Hmm…no idea. This was at a conservatory, so almost all the degrees are based on some type of performance (Dance, Music, or Theatre). I think the only exceptions are conducting, composition, and music education. They have some interesting degrees: there’s a Master of Music in Vocal Pedagogy. :)

                (Sorry to go off topic.)

      4. many bells down*

        On re-reading the letter, I notice the LW says that “MOST” of the rest of the team had Masters. So … some of the other people on the team didn’t? They had bachelor’s? Associates? But it was only a problem for one specific employee?

      5. Annie Mouse*

        I completely agree, I’ve got a Bachelors and a Masters but changed fields and am getting really excited about going back to uni for the diploma I need to progress. I’ll hopefully eventually end up with another bachelors in it but the diploma’s the main thing I need.

    2. all aboard the anon train*

      Yes, this is what stood out to me as well. It’s incredibly arrogant to assume that someone isn’t smart or is lazy because they only have a bachelor’s. Most masters programs aren’t funded and not everyone can afford them, and more than that, they’re usually not necessary for a lot of jobs.

      It makes me sad that there are still people who look down on those who don’t have a degree – or their degree of choice – because there are many people who would love one, but can’t pursue it for many different reasons.

      1. my two cents*

        I’m sure as Hell not spending a dime of my own money on a Masters in Engineering. I’d be looking back to my employer to pay for that, if they thought it was worthwhile in my role.

        How many entry level jobs in the insurance industry really require a secondary degree? Does anyone here know?
        (I’m saying ‘entry’ here because LW is only 28 with the ‘others’ to be about that same age, with a mention of only 1 senior-level employee)

        And it’s entirely possible that the ousted employee had already negotiated some tuition reimbursement for a higher degree when she was hired on. Or maybe she was just savvy enough to go look for the answers herself, in spite of her manager constantly snubbing her requests for help.

        1. Mary*

          FYI, in a few states to start teaching kindergarten through 12th grade you need a Master’s.
          Source: I have a M.Ed which came with $45k student loan debt for a first year $32k annual salary teaching kindergarten. I now work in corporate procurement where the starting salary was $45k and a LOT fewer hours.

          1. my two cents*

            Teaching is a hard gig, whatever state you happen to be in. Many MANY kudos to you for working with kiddos.

            My mother had a Masters degree in Early Childcare and Development. She worked as a preschool teacher for about a decade, but when I (youngest kid) was old enough that she didn’t need to keep those hours, she left and became a machine technician for a plastics (bags, wrap, etc) company for twice the salary and twice the health insurance.

        2. Kristine*

          My partner decided against a Masters in Engineering, too. I went back to school for my Master’s in Library and Information Science, and he makes three times what I do! So, there you are. (I love what I do, and he loves what he does.)
          Two things my graduate school education did emphasize: creative ideas for freelance work, which has been great for me, and a real good grounding in ethics, public service, and how to treat people. Despite a difficult economy my fellow graduates and I traded emails/Linked In messages about potential jobs, offers of reference letters for each other, and short-term projects/gigs. And age-wise we’re all over the map. That kind of support is golden.

          1. many bells down*

            My boss has a Master’s in her field, and her non-degreed husband makes twice what she does. Because he’s very good at his specialization and it doesn’t need a degree.

        3. Anonymity*

          Truly entry level in insurance is probably primarily data entry/call center work, so no degree required at all beyond a high school diploma (I work for a TPA, not a direct insurer, so it may not be the same, but I’m assuming significant overlap given there’s a lot of the same functions happening).

        4. Red Wine & Carbs*

          My mother and younger sister worked/have worked in the insurance brokerage industry for years, both as broker’s assistants. A broker’s assistant is NOT equivalent to secretary, administrative assistant, and/or the like, not that there is anything wrong with being any of those things, at all. My (now) 70-year-old mother has maybe 2 years of college. My (now) 40-year-old sister, who, due partly to learning differences but mostly to laziness/disinterest, barely made it through high school and flunked out of community college. Broker’s assistants, at least in Texas, must pass the same exams and get the same professional licences as actual brokers. I believe that they can pretty much do everything a broker does (issue quotes, bind business, bring in new clients, etc.) I do not believe that my sister’s current boss, an evil, but seriously high-producing broker, even has a Bachelor’s degree – if she does, she got it later in life. Of the 3 to 5 brokers that she has worked for over the years, maybe one has had a Masters degree that I can think of.

          As far as advanced degrees in general, I was “smart and dedicated enough” to get a J.D. fourteen years ago, not a job requirement, and said degree came with six-figure debt. The knowledge that I will be coughing up $700 a month UNTIL I DIE doesn’t make me feel particularly smart most of the time (OK – ever).

      2. ThatGirl*

        My husband has a masters because he needed one to get a job in his field. I have a bachelor’s because a master’s in journalism would have been a waste of money. And I’m not even in journalism anymore. And I make more than my master’s-having husband. (Not that it’s a competition.)

        And honestly if you stacked my salary up next to my JD and PhD-having friends I bet we’re pretty comparable. We’re all doing interesting and fulfilling work in our various fields, too, which matters.

        1. Rookie Manager*

          I have a BA and a BSc(hons). My partner left uni half way through the first term when he realised it wasn’t for him. This time last year he earned twice as much as me (I’ve caught up a bit now).

          One day I’d like to do a Masters for my own development, but getting that qualification won’t suddenly make me smart or not lazy or the higher wage earner in my house!

      3. KC*

        I couldn’t agree with this more. The biggest shame (in my opinion) is how irrelevant LW found her previous experience. A good chunk of the time, and even in my own professional experience, a person can learn so much more from experience than an education. Someone I know in the financial industry will hire someone with more experience and a bachelor’s degree from a lesser known school than someone who graduated from an ivy league with no experience.

        1. many bells down*

          My husband never finished his bachelor’s degree. It was the mid-90’s, programmers were in ridiculous demand, and he got hired halfway through college and never went back. Now, with almost 30 years of experience in programming, he’s never needed it. He’s lead programmer at his current job. Like, of the whole company. He just got the new title last week.

        2. Meera*

          I’m currently doing subjects for my second Masters degree, mostly because I need to do a certain amount of continuing professional development to maintain my certified engineer qualifications. As part of it, we are covering material I’ve probably done 4 times at least. And I’m getting the most of it now, after 15 years experience, because my experience lets me relate theory to actual practice and physical behavior of engineering materials and real world sites. I’ve done this stuff before as an undergrad and a relatively new postgrad and it’s genuinely gone in one ear and out the other after the exam. Now, with actual experience, it’s a vastly different and far more effective learning process that I know I couldn’t have without over a decade of work experience.

    3. Czhorat*

      Yes.

      And in most fields (and I suspect insurance is like this) your level of education gets you your first job.

      Subsequent jobs rely on that less and less.

    4. Manders*

      Yes! From this post, it’s not even clear what a master’s degree would add to this employee’s ability to do her job–it sounds like a lot of her role was about building relationships and being great at presentations, not about having deep knowledge of a technical subject.

      OP, it sounds like the university where you got your master’s degree oversold you on how important that degree would be, what it says about you as a person, and how much weight it carries in your field. Most companies are not going to care about degrees unless they’re a requirement for getting the job or maintaining a legally required certification.

      1. Jen S. 2.0*

        It also sounds more and more (and more) like the departing employee was one of the best on the team at her job, and OP was not the only one who felt threatened by that. Her lack of a master’s degree clearly didn’t cause her any problems with regard to doing the work, which is what REALLY matters once you are out of school.

        Also, to the OP: you keep mentioning “your team” and what you did to support and develop and protect them. This person was part of your team as well, but it doesn’t sound like you ever saw it the way.

        1. WellRed*

          I got stuck on this (among other things) too. She was part of your team, too, but for whatever reason, you treated her horribly.

        2. AndersonDarling*

          It’s mind boggling! It sounds like she rocked her job if she was receiving praise from so many departments and she was receiving special projects from the higher-ups. I couldn’t imagine receiving loads of praise about a direct report and denouncing it. A manager should be supporting the employee and ridding the praise wave with her!

          1. Stranger than fiction*

            Exactly. I feel like this whole thing boils down to the Op and her team thinking the ex employee was making them look bad – or doing everything to prevent that from happening. But instead, the Op defended her position to the death…of her job and all the others’ jobs.

      2. Snark*

        OP is bragging about an MBA, too. Not to devalue MBAs, but they’re a professional qualification, and they’re not evidence of original research or extraordinary scholarship. I mean, hell, I have a PhD, and I don’t value it this much.

        1. Manders*

          Yes, I think part of OP’s problem is that they totally believed the sales pitch that many universities use for MBAs and masters programs. A lot of those universities do try to convince prospective students that they need those degrees to get hired or to move up in the business world.

          It can be awfully disappointing to get out of an advanced degree program and see people succeeding without those degrees. It’s easier to blame the company for being “unfair” than it is to admit that you just spent a whole lot of time and money on a degree that doesn’t matter as much as you thought it would.

          (Some positions do require a degree or years of very specialized training, of course. It just seems like *this* career path didn’t need someone with advanced degrees.)

          1. sap*

            I, like, 50% get this–and I could imagine being VERY bitter about that hard thing I did to the tune of 6-figure debt turning out to not, in fact, have the function it was sold as having.

            …but it’s not some equally (or more) excellent’s fault that they are a savvier consumer.

        2. Lora*

          In my field (biotech/pharma) we actually sneer at the folks with MBAs as being unable to comprehend what the company even does, let alone analyze the business risks or appropriately value our various programs…we look at the shuttering of Bell Labs and the shenanigans of Imclone, Theranos and the Martin Shkrelis of the world and think, seriously guys, get a job that doesn’t hurt people, this is clearly too much responsibility for you to handle.

          I’m fascinated to see the whole exchange though. Good on the company for cleaning house! That’s great news. I’m sorta glad I am cynical enough to know that there are indeed terrible people who think like this who mysteriously end up in management; just when you think you can’t get any more jaded, the world goes and proves you wrong.

        3. Jessica*

          OP certainly demonstrates how a degree doesn’t provide a benefit unless you have practical experience to put it to good use. OP used her MBA to nosedive her entire team directly into the unemployment line, after creating all manner of legal and procedural issues while losing her company valuable clients and revenue. Was she gone the day they taught business in business school? Must’ve been.

    5. Fern*

      This so many times. For many people, getting a master’s degree isn’t about dedication and smarts. It’s about having the means and time. A lot of people have to carve out time part time or at night to get a master’s degree, and cannot afford to add on more student debt/go back to school full time.

      1. MashaKasha*

        Exactly. In a country where higher ed is a ridiculously expensive commodity, it’s one hell of an assumption for LW to imply that people who do not have her preferred level of education, do not have it only because they are not smart and dedicated.

      2. Breda*

        Also, frankly, many of the people I know who got Master’s degrees did so because they didn’t know what to do after college, or were struggling to get a job and were hoping that a greater qualification would combine with a stronger job market a year later to help them out. (I graduated in 2010. I knew people who graduated in 2008 and went to law school rather than contend with that job market!) It doesn’t indicate much, to me.

        1. Not The Droid You Are Looking For*

          I’m one of these people! I went to graduate school because I was looking for direction.

          I don’t really work in a field related to my degree, but utilize the skills and talents honed while in school.

      3. tigerStripes*

        There are plenty of people who don’t get a master’s degree because they don’t need one. I don’t have one and haven’t needed one.

    6. Wisdom Beats Intelligence*

      Of all the CEO’s for whom I worked, the absolute best one, by far, was the person with no graduate degree and a bachelors from a school that even the CEO said was mid level. They knew more about managing great people and setting strategy than anyone I’ve ever met.

      My two worst managers had graduate degrees from Ivy-level schools. I also attended an Ivy-level school and I hope I can emulate the CEO.

      LW, degrees show what facts a person has learned. Wisdom, empathy, and strategic thought come from experience. If you open your mind to feedback, you can gain experience and be like the CEO. If not, you’ll be the smart jerk in the office for a long time to come.

    7. FCJ*

      Yesssssss. The idea that her experience was worthless because it wasn’t endorsed by a degree is laughable. Degrees are great–I have several of them. But they’re not the same as work experience.

      And, for what it’s worth, in my experience when one of my students makes a point of telling me what degrees they already have, it’s almost guaranteed to presage mediocre or even bad performance in my class. Thinking your degree alone makes you qualified seriously prevents you from recognizing where you can improve.

    8. shep*

      So much this. My dad is one of the most brilliant people I know (and now that he’s nearly sixty, takes great pleasure in accruing associate degrees in everything from jewelry-making to electronics in his spare time), but had to drop out of college as a young person because of finances.

      My partner is also brilliant, graduated from HS in the top of his class, and just didn’t like college. He dropped out. And is STILL one of the most brilliant people I know.

      I have a BA and an MFA, and while I’m proud of the work I did during those programs, I certainly don’t think I’m better or smarter or more entitled than anyone else.

      I feel like OP lives a very insular life, with friends and colleagues that only mirror her perceptions of the world. There’s nothing wrong with having like-minded friends, but when it’s at the exclusion of all else, to the detriment of all else, it is a VERY bad thing, indeed.

      1. Mouse*

        Yes! My dad is easily the smartest person I know, and I went to a top-5 US university. He never went to college. He barely graduated high school. Instead, he traveled around the country with his dad as racecar drivers, and building racecars and doing indoor stunt shows in the winter. Now he’s a steelworker, and rose to the top of his mill lightning-fast because his mind is so well-suited to machines and engineering.

        Beyond that, he took a huge interest in his kids’ educations. I remember complaining that I was bored in math class in elementary school, so he fought the principal (who thought only boys could be good at math), borrowed a math textbook, and studied with me over the summer so I could skip a grade in math. He would sit up at night reading the next unit so he could teach it to me the next day. I have a dozen more stories like that, too. I honestly wouldn’t be anywhere close to where I am today without my dad.

        This kind of educational elitism drives me crazy. I’m so glad I came from the background that I did, because I had peers in college that genuinely thought that anyone who didn’t go to college was dumb as a box of rocks. They didn’t know better, but they should have. And so should you, Letter Writer. Look at the world around you. Talk to the woman changing your oil, or the man repairing your plumbing, or your taxi driver, or your local garbageperson. Seriously examine your thought processes and prejudices and learn about people. You may be well-educated in your field, but your worldview could use some work.

        4. Kate 2*

          Mouse and Shep, your dads remind me of my dad, mom, and grandfather especially, as well as others in my family. Full of intellectual curiosity, highly intelligent, quick to figure things out, but between money/personality never went or completed college.

        5. Baby in the Bathwater*

          “This kind of educational elitism drives me crazy”

          Perhaps. But the first sentence in our post says you went to a Top-5 university. (So, University of Chicago or Columbia?)

          And you perceived some advantage to going to a Top-5 university, most likely by paying a pretty penny to do so, rather than joining the racing car circuit yourself, or going to State U.

          The letter writer is obviously clueless. But it doesn’t follow that success at a top university should be sneered at, and anyone who takes the anti-intellectualism downthread at face value is getting very, very poor advice.

          1. Julia*

            I think they were trying to say that success at university was one kind of success. And unfortunately, it’s the kind many people seem to value the most, even though I know many highly educated fools.

        6. Erin*

          I have a bachelors and I’ve worked in education, (substitute taught while I decided if I wanted to peruse an education degree) and I choose to work retail. Because I make twice as much as a substitute and have health insurance, PTO and the short commute. If I figure out the cost of student loan payments, and the commute and working hours I wouldn’t be making anymore money than I am now.

      2. AnonEMoose*

        My dad never got beyond a high school education. But in his way, he is one of the smartest people I know. He’s been a mechanic and farmer his whole life. Give him a practical problem to solve, or something to fix or build, and he will get it done. And done well. Not only that, but he’s good at teaching the stuff he knows, and incredibly patient.

        What I know about troubleshooting – a computer, a car, or anything else – I learned from my Dad. What I know about training other people – breaking things down into steps, explaining what I’m doing, and then walking them through it – I learned from Dad. Safety around everything from a food processor to a lawn mower to a light rail train? Yep, learned it from Dad.

        1. Adlib*

          Are you me? Our dads sound very similar! So great to hear all the awesome dad stories out there! I realize more every day that my dad is superman.

        2. LavaLamp*

          Mouse, my family is similar. My parents have GEDs (equivalency degrees). My dad worked in construction all his life, and was really good at it. He was a manager, despite not having a degree.
          Even though my parents never attended college, or had a degree in anything they’re smart kind people, who taught me how to be a decent human and have a good work ethic.

          It’s not about the letters behind your name; it’s about being a decent human.

      3. Risha*

        My father only had a GED, but he was a literal genius (way, WAY smarter than me). He just wasn’t interested in school when he was young and a hippy. He got a high A or better in every single college class he eventually ended up taking in his late 30s, before he got sick.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        My husband has a PhD from a Big School, and if you wanted people like him to dismiss you then a quick way would be to brag about going to Big School. Everyone in the room was admitted to Big School, and we’ve all got PhDs–that’s all you’ve got?

      5. Solidad*

        My father had only a HS education. From small, rural American school in the 1940s. He was one of the smartest men I knew. He read and thought.

        When I went to law school, he spent a lot of time asking very insightful questions on the privileges and immunities clause and the post-Civil War Amendments. He was a Civil War buff and was trying to think through how our constitutional concepts relate to historical events and forces.

        Conversely, I know a few Ph.D.s that are really, really toxically close-minded and small. They only have their degrees b/c they were rich white men who came of age in the US, UK, and Europe in the 30s and 40s.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You guys are all reminding me of my dad.
          When friends first met him they said, “Oh, he speaks simply and slowly.” Yeah, because he’s thinking as he speaks. In time they saw a brilliant man who could build bridges, shore up houses, double check the bank’s math, shoot lot lines and a host of things. He got through to 12th grade by the skin on his teeth.

          Some people cannot follow the school’s schedule for presenting material. They just do not learn in that order that schools use. They follow a different order and absorb different material that is not focused on in school when they are focusing on it.

        2. Julia*

          University often teaches only a very limited approach to things, and often in only one way.

          I can imagine extremely smart people failing at university because their professors don’t get them.

      6. SarahKay*

        My step-dad went to agricultural college, which came with a BAg – good for farming, but not what other employers jump at. He then spent years working as a milker, a bit of retail, followed by more years as a telephone-line repairman.

        He is way *way* smarter than me, and got me through O-level physics (not sure of US equivalent, but exams at age 16) when I had a total inability to grasp the concept of acceleration (the whole concept of meters per second per second just did *not* compute to me!) and A-level maths (exams at age 18) when I struggled with calculus.

        In the meantime my step-dad’s ability to fix really tough failures got him promoted, then into IT. He retired a few years ago – from his position of head of IT for the county council services.

        I have a maths degree, but that’s now 20 years old, so basically so what. Experience is what counts, and I’ve always been incredibly grateful to my step-dad for (a) his help, (b) seeing that a degree isn’t the be-all and end-all of everything and (c) the knowledge that really, truly, my parents were never ever going to judge me on the ‘status’ of my job.

      7. Anonicat*

        Right? My dad became a surveyor through a cadetship and got a bachelor degree halfway through his working life. To the LW that’s not very impressive.

        You know what’s impressive? He trained more than 30 cadets over the course of his career and they all came to his retirement party. Some travelled 1500km for it. He was truly great at his job and at training young people in both the hard and soft skills needed to succeed in that work.

        Getting a masters or doctorate certainly requires smarts and dedication, but so do plenty of other achievements in life.

    9. AVP*

      That comment really stood out to me as well. Clearly, the upper mgmt thought the employee brought something new to the team in terms of experience and clients, and the OP seems so focused on material details like education and beer runs that she overlooked those good points. Of course there are some fields where advanced degrees are necessary but when your bosses are telling you that you’re not in one, you have to listen.

    10. Decima Dewey*

      I’m a librarian, which means I had to have a masters to get my job. And I’ve worked with some incredibly dumb people who also have a masters.

      1. CMart*

        I’m an accountant and many (most?) accountants past entry level get a masters of some sort.

        This profession certainly isn’t full of dummies, but I will say this: the vast majority of my peers in my masters’ program were very, very hard workers to compensate for not being whip-smart or lightning fast on understanding concepts. Getting that degree (or becoming a CPA for that matter) has very little to do with “smarts” and everything to do with work ethic and diligence.

        2. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

          Not really related to this post per se, but I’m glad that you say that. I’m going back to school for my undergrad in accounting and I don’t immediately understand all the concepts. I just took intermediate accounting and half my class dropped out because they didn’t get an A on the final … I just got a tutor, since I needed some in person assistance (my classes are online). I have to work VERY hard at it and I’m sure it’s even harder in a masters’ program.

      3. Symplicite*

        I’m a librarian, too, with the masters degree. But I work in Business, and don’t use my masters in the way the iSchool intended. And I’m perfectly OK with it – and many of my colleagues do not have masters degrees, either.

        What I have learned is that it is the foot in the door, period. You on your own merits keep the job.

    11. Frances*

      Yes, and even when a degree is an asset someone brings to the table, it often isn’t the only asset that’s valuable! I work in policy research and I have a masters. Some of my other colleagues “only” have a bachelors, but have journalistic experience. For the work we do, that experience is as much of an asset as my formal training.

    12. Kate the Purple*

      Yes. That education comment frustrated me too, and I say this as someone who has a law degree. A degree is not an end all be all indicator of intelligence or dedication

    13. Aunt Vixen*

      And conversely, I’m sure we’ve all known plenty of people with advanced degrees who were … let’s say not any smarter than those of us without them.

    14. la bella vita*

      I have two master’s degrees – my top two coworkers have a bachelor’s and I’m not entirely certain my boss went to college. Higher education can certainly be valuable, but it doesn’t necessarily indicate how good you’re going to be at your job.

    15. Dmr*

      I’d like to add that not getting an advanced degree can be the intelligent decision. I have considered getting a master’s common in my field, but leaving my job to pursue it and then looking for a new position in my niche does not seem worth the investment. I also see lots of clients and co-workers with advanced degrees who are not in any better position than I am (I manage one!), and are likely worse off when considering debt accrued and earnings lost while pursing an advanced degrees.

    16. Anon Anon*

      I think the over emphasis on education is probably more a reflection of the lack of professional experience on the part of the LW. The longer I work the more I value the depth and breath of experience and the less I value formal education. I have a graduate degree, I value education, but experience truly is the best teacher, and I know so many people without a college degree let alone a graduate degree who are amazing at what they do (and I learn from them all the time).

    17. Pearly Girl*

      THANK YOU.

      I have an associate’s degree and a senior position with a household-name company.

      Oh, and this is proof that a Master’s degree can’t develop common sense, courtesy or empathy. Those come from within, and they’re free.

    18. Woahh*

      This kind of attitude also props up discriminatory higher practices, based on the demographics of affording/ having access to masters level education.

    19. seejay*

      Nevermind too that it’s experience in your particular *field* that counts as well. My partner has a bachelor degree in a completely unrelated field but 20+ years experience in what he does and he runs circles around “new grads with master degrees” in his field. All their education and theory means diddly squat when it comes time to actually deliver exactly what the customers want and you only get that by working in the industry… which is sounds like the ex-employee had and the seniors above the LW recognized (and the LW and her team obviously didn’t because their MBA education got in the way). Holy moly.

    20. Alli525*

      What I find most interesting about LW’s high view of her MBA is that she must have skipped the MBA classes about legal pratfalls common in management. Or ethics classes.

      If MBA programs aren’t teaching legal/ethics classes, I’m not so sure that MBA grads are actually Masters of business.

      1. Anon Anon*

        To be fair, many MBA programs are just cash cows for their institutions. They aren’t actually teaching anyone much of anything. MBA vary wildly in quality from borderline papermill programs to top notch programs that are worth their weight in gold.

        1. CMart*

          Yeah. I always have some snarky things to say about MBAs in general, but I held back knowing that it’d be unkind to a lot of commenters here who have their MBA. You articulated the wide swing in merit much kinder and much more fairly than I could have.

          I will say that I have noticed a trend that “people who are snobby about having a masters” tend to also be “people who got a diploma-mill MBA”.

        2. la bella vita*

          I hope this doesn’t come off as completely obnoxious, but I have an MBA from a top 10-15 program and I always tell people if you can’t get into a top 20-30 program, it’s probably not worth it. I say that because if you go below that, you probably will never recoup your lost earnings and tuition.

      2. MsM*

        The “legal” class in my program was about a week long, and the basic takeaway was “if you’re not sure whether something’s okay, consult a real lawyer.” They did build ethics into the rest of the curriculum, though, and I had friends who took classes over at the law school in specific areas they thought might be useful.

    21. Xarcady*

      “Some of the smartest people in the world will be those without a degree.” I have a friend who dropped out of college his senior year. He once told me that he tends to think of himself as someone without a PhD, because all the people he works with have at least one doctorate. And when he was thinking about leaving that job a few years ago, they begged him to stay.

      The LW doesn’t seem to think that experience and hands-on training can compete with academic degrees. In some fields, this may be the case. But in many fields, experience can triumph over book learning.

    22. OldJules*

      +1 I always push back on manager who thinks that a degree is a good minimum qualification.

      If the position doesn’t require it, would you prefer someone with 4 years experience or fresh out of school?

      1. Baby in the Bathwater*

        “If the position doesn’t require it, would you prefer someone with 4 years experience or fresh out of school?”

        Um, the answer to that isn’t self-evident in the slightest. It depends on the nature of the role you’re hiring for, your corporate culture, etc.

        And of course it’s a false dichotomy. Often I’d want someone with a degree and four years of experience.

    23. Lisa*

      Yes to this. She sounds naive about many things. This appears to be her first post-college job. The dismay that someone with many more years of work experience could (possibly, eventually) rise to outrank someone with more years of seniority at this particular employer… that’s bizarre. Does she think that everyone starts over as entry-level every time they switch jobs?
      For what it’s worth, I technically have a 9th-grade education (unconventional childhood). Through a rare-at-the-time self-taught skill I landed a professional role at a Fortune 50 company where I stayed for 14 years, and routinely out-performed MBA-holding peers.
      I know many people who place great worth on their education, but just as many who consider their degree an expensive piece of paper in the context of what they currently do. To dismiss someone’s ability based on what degree they do or don’t hold shows poor understanding of how the world works.

    24. Kate 2*

      Yep! I know very smart people without them, and some very nice, very dumb people with them. Having a degree is no guarantee of work ethic, common sense, or even intelligence! It just means you can write papers and fulfill work requirements well enough to pass. *If* you are intelligent you can learn a lot at higher ed institutions, but I also saw a lot of people just skating by, doing what they had to to pass. I also met people who were doing really well, but who had no curiosity, no ability to put pieces together, and no awareness.

    25. MCMonkeyBean*

      Yes, that seems to be a key issue here. She is undervaluing work experience and overvaluing her degree, to the point where she decided that someone with more experience still doesn’t deserve to be higher in the company than her and actively sabotaged her own direct report.

    26. AnonForThis*

      The SO doesn’t have a college degree and is a wildly successful business owner, more successful than my degree-having self will probably ever be. He’s one of the most intelligent people I’ve ever known, and no one has ever called him out on it. That diploma doesn’t mean anything.

    28. Reliquary*

      I hold the PhD in my field. Over the last thirty years, I have had the privilege to learn from and work with stunningly brilliant people from many countries and from many cultures. My mother did not have the opportunity to pursue any post-secondary education, yet she remains the smartest person I have ever known.

    29. Squirrels Unite*

      A couple of years ago, at a family gathering, the group spent hours trying to figure out a way to keep the squirrels out of the bird feeder. Three PhDs, one MS, two MBAs, four BAs/BSs, collectively outsmarted by a rodent.

      Yeah, degrees are not always useful.

      2. mrs__peel*

        My partner and I have five degrees between us (I’m an attorney, and he has a PhD), and we once spent practically an hour figuring out how to install a $2 plastic seatbelt clip.

        1. Typhon Worker Bee*

          I have PhD, and my husband is a carpenter and generally excellent with all things mechanical. While waiting for the cable guy at our new place last weekend, my husband said “what’s this weird thing on the door frame?”, moved it, and promptly locked us in. It was some kind of extra lock and we could NOT figure out how to re-open it. There’s only one door… luckily, we figured it out between the two of us before we had to explain to the cable guy that we couldn’t open the door because we’d locked ourselves in. Took a good five minutes though.

          1. Anne (with an "e")*

            Look on the positive side of things: You and your husband got to have an impromptu Escape Room experience and now you have a found a built-in, came with the place game for party guests.

    30. Sadsack*

      OP didn’t think the employee was smart enough, except she was performing at a high level and picked to advance beyond OP soon.

  6. Amber T*

    One thing I want to point out that’s a life lesson, not just work related – Bullying isn’t “not bullying” because the victim never found out. First, there’s a good chance she knew *something* was up, even if she wasn’t sure what is was. Second, you’re creating a hostile work environment for the rest of your workers, for as much as you think you know them, at least one person felt it warranted HR’s attention (and it absolutely did). For all you know, there were others that were uncomfortable with it but were too afraid to bring it up or do anything about it, and given your reaction to the person who did talk to HR, I don’t blame them. Third, no, you don’t get a pat on the back for wanting to do something wrong/illegal and not doing it – it’s called being an adult and a decent human being.

    1. Jen S. 2.0*

      Agree. Anyone busy mocking you behind your back is unlikely to be unabashedly lovely to your face, and a pleasant, collegial coworker. She didn’t have to see the photo(s) to know the in-crowd likely had it out for her.

    2. sap*

      So much this, especially your point about others being uncomfortable. Bullying one person doesn’t just show those who see it that you don’t like *that person,* it shows them that you will make life miserable for the other people in the room if you stop liking them, too. Bullies GET to bully, and often DECIDE to bully, because their poor treatment of one keeps everyone else in line. There is always an implied threat to the members of the “in group,” even if the implied threat isn’t intended.

    3. Doug Judy*

      I was a target of workplace bullying at OldJob and while I didn’t know specifically what they were saying about me behind my back I knew enough. The bullies are never as good at hiding it as the think they are.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have been in a group of people who were talking negatively about me and I could just feel it, intuitively. Fortunately, I did not fully understand it at the time or it would have been more devastating. As it was, every time I dealt with this group, I would get headaches and stomach aches for no apparent reason.

      OP, she knew that she did not have one single friendly face in your department. She does not have to know how that happened, you could be gossiping, you could be putting it on the internet but the method has no bearing here. She saw strained interactions where ever she looked.

      When you target one person with a steady stream of negative comments, that is called bullying. Your group felt they had to side with you as the boss in order to keep their jobs. And probably they were relieved that someone else was the scapegoat not them. They had to stay on your good side so they could get a good eval and keep their jobs. They saw what could happen if they did not stay on your good side.

      I just wonder, OP, did someone ostracize you in such a manner and that is why you think this is okay to do? If yes, then this person who ostracized you was wrong also.

  7. Rebecca*

    I’m interested in how the LW didn’t know that she was managing incorrectly, for lack of a better word. It seems like she genuinely didn’t know what was appropriate, legal, or even professionally advantageous. Is that not also (partially) the fault of her own manager? I’ve never been a manager, but I’ve had and seen plenty who truly do not know what is okay.
    From reading this site religiously, I’m quick to jump to “HOW COULD THEY NOT KNOW THIS IS NOT OKAY?!” when things happen that are terrible. But it’s clear that a lot of people are figuring things out on the spot, and lack oversight themselves. I often think things in my own job would be better if my boss had a boss.

    1. Snark*

      I think this is the key: I get that I am a shitty manager unless you actually worked with me but I worked with friends for 5 years.”

      On some level, I think she knows that she was practicing awful management, she just thought it didn’t matter because her team were all her bros and she didn’t need to actually manage them because they were all one big happy clique.

      1. FCJ*

        That’s what I got, too. Combined with the “it’s not illegal not to like someone,” the LW seems to really believe that it’s okay in a work environment to treat employees badly if you don’t click with them on a personal level.

        1. Snark*

          It’s not just that. She seems to have wholeheartedly bought into her own exceptionalism: yes, this is bad management for other people, and yes, this might be illegal for other people, but she and her team was special, and it would have all been great if she didn’t have this meddling outsider who screwed it all up and brought reality crashing down on her.

        2. Justme*

          I have a few co-workers who I dislike. But you’d never know it because I actually treat them with professional respect. We would never hang out outside of work but that’s irrelevant to a good work situation.

        3. Adlib*

          I’m flabbergasted that she thought this was okay to do to anyone who is a human being. My goodness.

      2. PB*

        I interpreted that as “I know I sound like a shitty manager, but if you actually worked with me, you’d see otherwise.”

        I hope your interpretation is correct, however. If she realizes on some level that her management was a problem, then perhaps she can someday grow beyond it.

        1. Snark*

          I think she realizes that, in the abstract, managers who do this stuff are shitty, but not her, because she is an exception to the rules.

    2. Corporate Cynic*

      This is why more companies need to have 360-feedback formally in place as part of the review process (and take it seriously). Otherwise, managers’ bad practices can continue to go unnoticed by those who need to take note, until something as unfortunate as this happens.

      1. Adlib*

        Absolutely. I have a friend in a bad management situation right now, and I wish her entire team would do something about it (other than leave).

    3. Natalie*

      That is a good point, if I was the LW’s manager I would hopefully be interrogating myself about what, if anything, I could have done differently in this situation.

      That said, it sounds like the new employee was originally brought on board to address some specific deficiencies, maybe in sales numbers or something else that can have lots of causes. The LW’s managers probably had some data suggesting the team had a problem, but until an outsider was brought in none of that data pointed to the manager.

    4. YarnOwl*

      I really recently worked for a Bad Manager, and some of the things she did were so astounding and I had this exact same thought almost daily! I guess some people just think they are right no matter what, and don’t think about what’s professional or kind.

    5. oranges & lemons*

      I dunno, the sense I’m getting from this LW is that she is very reluctant to listen to criticism generally. It’s hard to know how much coaching her manager might have tried to give her, although it does seem like her manager couldn’t have been too closely involved to have let things get to the point they did.

      1. TheOtherLiz*

        Yep. And the thing is, to be good at anything, you need the humility to be open to criticism, feedback, and then the desire to change. You need to own the work. LW doesn’t seem ready for that, but hopefully this will be a wake up call, and she’ll seek out help. Or, maybe she should continue on in a career without being a manager. I know it can be hard to conceive of progressing in many careers without moving up the management ladder, but, you either have to make an effort to be good at that significant piece of the job, or settle for lower-level or different jobs that don’t include management at all. The shame of it is that really managing well, building people up rather than leaving them out to dry so they’ll give up and leave you and your friends alone… bringing out the best in a variety of people – it’s incredibly rewarding. Doing your own job and managing someone in a way that helps them be better is one of those “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts” deals. It’s worth making the effort.

        1. Umvue*

          I’m discovering to my great chagrin that you can rise alarmingly high in society without being willing to listen to criticism. You shouldn’t, of course!

      2. yasmara*

        Except that her manager (or at least the directors/vp’s/c-suite) were telling her which assignments to give Departed Employee and LW just ignored their direction & gave the assignments to other team members. My guess is LW did something similar with any/all feedback she got. I would say firing her and her entire team was necessary (although still surprising – bravo to the company) based on the toxic situation LW herself describes.

        1. oranges & lemons*

          Well, if the LW’s or the bullied employee’s managers had been more directly involved, I feel like they would have pretty quickly found out at least about the beer runs, and likely the bullying as well, and would have shut that down a lot sooner. Considering what a hard line the company (rightly) took on these things, I’m a little surprised it continued as long as it did.

          1. Koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯*

            Based on LW’s age, the 5-year timeframe they’ve all been working together, and the talk about new business and growth, I’m thinking this was a small company when LW & Company were hired. The rest of the company are self-motivating/high-achiever types so the small company developed a culture of hands-off management or lacks people who are interested in managing as opposed to doing their “real work.” That worked well for about five years–maybe they were holding the company back but they weren’t visibly screwing anything up so nobody thought their underperformance was abnormal–until the company’s growth and attempt to bring a new person in brought the the dysfunction in LW’s department to light.

    6. I'm Not Phyllis*

      So … with this. I am with you. I wonder how much of this entire scene could have been avoided if the LW’s manager had been managing HER more effectively. It sounds like, at best, she was a very inexperienced manager who could have used a lot of coaching and that obviously wasn’t happening either. And it cost a whole team of people their jobs when it really should have only cost one.

      1. gabkkb*

        Yeah, one of the most difficult things that I have done in my career it become the boss of what sounds like a group similar to this, that were all my friends going into my taking over as manager. There were a few things that I think my boss at the time did right that I wonder if could have helped the OP.

        1. Make it very clear that my reports were no longer my friends if I took the promotion. They also really discussed in detail what this meant. As in no facebook friends, no one on one lunches, no bar nights. But invitations to the whole team to grab lunch or dinner after work were okay.
        2. Discuss what part of the culture they were okay with and what parts they wanted to see changed.
        3. Discuss more broadly the direction they saw the department going in. We were bringing in individuals with two year degrees, which was upsetting to a lot of the longer tenured individuals with four year degrees. Part of my role was to manager a smooth transition for the new two year degree people.
        4. Let me know that anyone I found annoying or was not friendly with was just as much my report as someone who was my friend, and could not be treated differently.

        My boss also made it clear that this was my promotion to take or leave, but if I took it these I needed to follow those guidelines. Without this, unfortunately, I could see myself making a lot of the same mistakes that the OP made. I think its very difficult to be promoted to manager of a cliquey group that you were a part of, especially when the company leadership is looking for change (for example bringing in outside talent). It can be done, and I actually think I ended up doing an okay job of it, but not without a lot of help from my immediate supervisors. There really not much in the OPs letter regarding their managers before they fired everyone, but I would not be surprised if they took too much of a back seat to some of this groups behavior until it was too late and the entire team had to be let go. While it certainly does not abdicate the OP from the responsibility of being a good manager, you do have to wonder where their manager was during this.

        1. I'm Not Phyllis*

          It’s so great that your boss had this conversation with you, even though I’m sure it wasn’t much fun at the time! That’s advice that can carry you through your whole career because it’s spot-on, no matter who you’re managing.

    7. Amelia*

      I have to disagree, if only because some of the LW’s management involves doing things that you just don’t do–whether or not you’re managing someone. You don’t freeze out another person, you don’t bully them over SnapChat, you don’t try to sabotage people who you feel are doing a better job than you or getting more praise than you. If you think those things are acceptable, how could a manager convince you otherwise?

      1. yasmara*

        Shouldn’t a manager be aware of company policy regarding things like alcohol on company time? I’ve had some managers who follow company policy more rigidly than others, but none of them would blatantly flaunt rules like this or think that somehow the rules don’t apply to them/their team. Add documented bullying to that? I agree @Amelia, this goes way beyond normal coaching a new manager might need and when the rubber met the road, HR & the company acted reasonably swiftly and decisively. Good for them.

    8. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      Honestly, the issues you’ve raised are important but also so remedial that I suspect OP’s manager(s) were gobsmacked by the idea that a promising employee who had been fine for several years was all of a sudden behaving in ways that actively hurt her and the company.

      I suspect any number of mediocre managers (adequate, not great) could have missed this, although I’m not sure how they missed it for so long. But if they had never had a reason to suspect she’d have the bad judgment to engage in things like brewery runs, online bullying, and flagrant insubordination, then I can see how it might take them awhile to figure this out. I suspect that it also took awhile because OP’s retaliatory streak, which she mentioned in her prior letter, may have dissuaded members of her team from complaining up the chain, earlier.

      This isn’t to let OP’s managers off the hook—it definitely seems like there was a management oversight on their parts. They should have been catching the insubordination and other issues sooner, and ideally, they would have either steered her towards better practices or, if she was recalcitrant (as she’s been in the updates), utilized disciplinary tools. But her view and instincts are so off right now that I suspect that she didn’t harbor all of these misguided ideas about her managerial competency when they first hired her (pre-promotion).

      1. Annonymouse*

        I think OPs bosses did try.

        Frequent meetings about Ex Employees role and discussion about project assignments etc.

        But it’s hard for the bosses inside the company to see what’s going on when:

        The manager smiles, nods and makes the right words/seems on board but does the opposite of what they’ve been told without consulting or informing the powers that be.

        Has close friendships on their team and has favourites who get plum assignments and have no need to complain.

        Anyone who complains is unmanaged/frozen out/retaliated against

        So I can see how they think there are performance problems on the team without realising how toxic it is because the only person giving feedback or communicating is LW who is the root cause of the problems.

  8. elena marie*

    I don’t understand what the letter-writer was going for by writing in. That you would “side with a manager” and they could take that to their supervisor? That they would just “get some credit” for… their own piece of mind? Were you going to personally call and get them not only un-fired but promoted?

    1. Czhorat*

      In fairness, plenty of letter writers have really odd ideas which they expect to be the norm. The LW might have been expecting some form of support and advice on how to handle what they saw as unfair treatment by their management.

    2. Natalie*

      I think it’s kind of common to tell someone your tale because you’re expecting emotional validation. The satire column “Bad Advice” is tagged “telling advice column writers what they want to hear” for a reason.

    3. la bella vita*

      I would be interested in how long had elapsed between when the LW wrote in and when she posted the original letter since the suspension happened in the interim – I wonder how long it took the company to investigate the problem.

    4. delurker*

      Even accepting the (incorrect) assumption that the name of the column means the advice should always side with the manager —

      — the advice *did* side with the *OP*’s managers, the ones who hired the person she didn’t like, and instructed her to utilize the employee in the way they intended.

    5. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I am just truly appreciative that people like the LW are willing to write in. This is really important for people to read.

      I once had a manager tell me I wasn’t a good fit on the team (of personal bankers) because *she looks me up and down* I didn’t value fitness. I’m considered clinically average and have not struggled with weight.

      2. Clinical Social Worker*

        But even if you were fat, how would that justify what she said? Someone should never say something like that as a manager.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      She literally said, “I thought that as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Carolyn Hax does not always side with moms even though she is a mom.

        The goal is not to agree with each other. The goal is to find best management practices. Alison does not “side” with anyone. Alison is on the side of good practices and good ethics, job title or position on the corporate ladder does not matter.

    7. cheeky*

      It seems like she was hoping to be validated by AAM, to feel like she has grounds to “take action” against her former company.

    8. SarahKay*

      I think OP truly believed she was in the right. If AAM had confirmed that, as expected, then even if the worst happened and she was fired, at least she’d have the satisfaction of knowing that her manager/HR/her company were a bad company.
      Peace of mind, and validation that it’s not you, it’s them, can be pretty important sometimes. For instance, it might give OP more confidence in interviews if she’d had it confirmed by AAM that it wasn’t her, it was her company.
      Sadly for the OP, in this case she was wrong.

  9. Not Today Satan*

    Not to play detective but it’s strange that the original letter says “Her senior team members and I were sad to see her go” but this letter admits you forced her out. You say “I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn.” One possible takeaway: follow your own manager’s direction. If you disagree, maybe have a healthy debate, but it sounds like you were wildly insubordinate for this employee’s whole tenure.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      That’s an interesting way to frame comments here: What are the lessons that we’d hope the LW would take from this experience?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I was thinking about that, especially with the last couple of lines and the “Isn’t that what managers are supposed to do?” The thing is, OP, it doesn’t matter how wonderful you are to the employees you’re friends with if you’re a bad manager to the one you don’t like. What managers are supposed to do is manage *everybody fairly*. Right now you’re like the teacher who brings 19 kids home from the 20-kid field trip and is annoyed that people want to talk about the 1 kid you left behind at the museum.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          +1 I think this is an excellent comparison :)

          It doesn’t matter if you don’t like that kid, or you think that kid doesn’t fit in, or that kid wasn’t supposed to be in your class, you still don’t leave them at the museum!

        4. Pizkies*

          That line jumped out at me, too (and I love your analogy).

          The thing is, managers are not just supposed to look out for their friends. Managers are supposed to look out for their TEAMS, which includes even the ones you don’t personally like. And just as importantly, managers are supposed to look out for the company. It is a hard job specifically because you have to balance those two, sometimes contradictory, interests. But when you find yourself throwing one or the other (team or company) completely under the bus, you’re doing it wrong.

      2. Lance*

        In some part, to separate work and pleasure; certainly, nobody could blame LW for wanting to create a fun, friendly work environment, but ultimately work comes first, and I’m not completely certain, judging by the (terrible, apparently) Snapchatting during work hours and beer drinking during lunch hour (which, while yes, was off-site, still could lead to inebriation and poorer work quality after lunch), was taken to heart.

        Besides that: treat all your direct reports well, however new they might be, however you might feel about them. If they’re being terrible, do something about it; don’t shoot the messenger (who, in this case, was very justified in going to HR; from the attitude presented, I imagine they didn’t feel safe going to LW about the issue, and rightly so, which is not a position I would want to be in. I’d want to be able to trust my manager to handle issues well). There are undoubtedly more, but those stuck out to me the most.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          We don’t get to create the culture of a workplace. We don’t get to change the parts of the workplace we don’t like.
          For example, if everyone is in suits we don’t get to say, “But my group can come in with cutoffs and a tank top.”
          Your company did not offer a “fun culture”, OP, you decided on your own to be “fun”. Unfortunately, your employer wanted a “work culture”. Everyone else is working, OP. It seems that your fun culture was so entrenched that your subordinates could not make the switch over to a more serious work environment. This cost them their jobs.
          When in Rome, do as the Romans do. You will find this with any company, OP. We either go with the general flow or we go out the door.

      3. Dee*

        I’d hope she learns the lesson that policies, procedures, and norms exist for a reason. This is not to say that stupid policies don’t exist, but you know, maybe there’s a reason you shouldn’t let your team go out drinking at lunch! There’s a reason your manager assigned the ex-employee a project, and taking it away without any consultation isn’t a good idea

      4. Tuxedo Cat*

        I hope with some time, the letter writer would realize that when you’re presented with a ton of evidence, including outsider opinion (this blog) who has no stake in this, that you were wrong, you consider how you could be at fault.

        I also would hope the writer reflects on why she disliked this employee to the point of trying to get her to quit. There’s a lot of evidence the employee was quite competent at the job (e.g., “. I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director, and client executives.”) Maybe this employee was never destined to be her best friend, but she seems to have done something right and likely many things right.

        1. MsM*

          Yeah, if everyone but you thinks this person is the best thing since sliced bread, then at the very least you could stand to watch and learn from their personal salesmanship skills.

    2. CityMouse*

      A lot of this letter seems of two minds. LW says shhe’s a bad manager unless you worked with her for five years (that is just plain bad management) and at points seems to acknowledge problems then defend them. It is very two minded which seems very odd to me.

      1. Junior Dev*

        “shhe’s a bad manager unless you worked with her for five years”

        “He’s such a great dad, except when he’s drunk.”

    3. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      My thoughts run along the same line. It seems to me that there is a big disconnect in the OP’s understanding of what her job is as manager. She ultimately did not follow the direction of her director, she actively worked against the plans laid in place. She went rogue! She sabotaged this employee’s professional development. If you disagree with the direction given to by your direct report, you should lay out your disagreements professionally, but ultimately your job is to follow the direction given. When a manager doesn’t like the work of an employee, their role is to address that performance. Instead, the OP used her supervisory powers to harass the employee into opting out of the team. It is a huge abuse of power, and was not in the interest of the employer or her team.

      It’s also important to note how OP is really not acting in the interest of her team (referring to the teammembers she liked.) It’s unfair of the manager to allow the behaviors of her staff to continue: Drinking on the clock, bullying another employee, etc, these are behaviors they are learning from the OP, think are acceptable because the OP has accepted them, and those behaviors won’t fly in other jobs. My guess is that there are other behaviors she wasn’t addressing as well, and it’s such a big disservice to their professional development to promote behavioral issues.

    4. Breda*

      Yeah, this is…VERY different in feeling, which I suspect is part of why Alison had the reaction of “is this for real?” I didn’t follow the comments on the last post, so I came away feeling like she was misguided but well-intentioned, and hadn’t tried to make the ex-employee feel like an outsider but also hadn’t tried hard enough to include her. This paints a much more hostile picture. “She was good at her job, so we felt like she was showing off” is a pretty tell-tale line.

      1. MCMonkeyBean*

        Yeah, between the showing off comment and the bit about how she didn’t deserve to be promoted above the OP because she hasn’t been at the company as long and only has a bachelor’s degree–it definitely seems like jealousy is a major factor here. Definitely not a good look on a manager.

      2. SarahKay*

        If you search for “Letter Writer” on the first post you can find the follow up comments by OP. She goes from almost-reasonable in the original letter to horrified-gasp ‘No!’ in the follow ups.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        We are supposed to be good at our jobs. And it is perfectly fine that someone else is better than us at our job. This happens. It’s not abnormal at all.

    5. Cleo*

      That’s the thing that jumped out at me – LW actively sabotaged her manger and was then surprised she was fired.

      I think another, related take-away is that this is how middle management works. You have (may have) some leeway in how you manage your team but you actually have to do what your manager(s) ask you to do.

    6. cobweb collector*

      I also noticed a distinct tone change from the first letter to the second one. The first was concerned that maybe s/he was managing wrong, the second was absolutely convinced s/he could do no wrong.

      Alison – are you sure they came form the same email address?

      2. Clinical Social Worker*

        The tone shift goes from plausible deniability to “I did it but I had reasons.” Plenty of people make this shift.

  10. FDCA In Canada*

    Alison, if you were the manager in charge of this LW, do you think you would have done anything differently? I’m assuming you would have fired the LW as well, but would you have taken other steps to try to educate her, or mitigate the bad blood between the employee who left and the company?

  11. Oryx*

    OP, I think it’s interesting that you feel like a scapegoat when what you essentially are doing is scapegoating your ex-employee for your own poor managerial decisions and insubordination.

    1. bridget*

      Another twist of irony – OP believes her actions were ok because the ex-employee was at-will and could have been fired for any reason, but is wondering whether she and her other fired friends can take legal action against the ex-employee for their firings.

      1. Jiggs*

        Yes, that struck me as well. What could you even sue for? “This person told the truth about me to HR, and yes all those things happened but she TOLD ON US!”

        “Someone told someone else something true about me” is not illegal anywhere, LW.

      2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

        She should hire Bob Loblaw.

        “Why should you to go to jail for a crime someone else noticed?”

    2. Sharon*

      Agree. It’s an amazing example of the Mean Girls School of Management.

      But on a lighter note, I’m pleasantly astonished to hear about a company that didn’t automatically back the poor manager without question. On a darker note, I feel bad for the LW because it sounds like she needs some management training. Instead they just dumped her.

      1. Observer*

        Well, sometimes a person is just so toxic that there is not much a company can do. And if she was talking to her management the way she writes to Allison, I ca wee why they would not want to take the chance.

      2. BethRA*

        She was deliberately insubordinate (and uses that term herself!), and after her bosses told her they wanted to bring this employee in to develop an new area of business, she went out of her way to make that person want to quit. That’s not a lack of management training.

        1. Xarcady*

          Yeah, that caught my eye. It’s as if the LW was deliberately sabotaging the company’s new area of business. I suspect that figured greatly in the firing.

      3. Hills to Die on*

        She was just so aggregious in her behavior, and it sounds like she had been insubordinate for some time. Sometime you can see that no amount of investment is going to make a situation better.

      4. Betty Cooper*

        I feel like the important factor in deciding whether to fire a manager like this one or send them for retraining is the presence or absence of remorse.

        Had I been the LW’s manager, if we were discussing her actions here and she admitted wrongdoing and expressed remorse for her actions, I would consider keeping her on with a demotion and a retraining plan. But that’s not what we see in this update. When a person can’t even admit that they did something wrong, sending them for more training seems like the equivalent of keeping someone after school to write “I will not mismanage my team” on the blackboard 100 times.

      5. Not So NewReader*

        They could not keep OP, because OP sincerely believes that she did nothing wrong.

        A manager’s nightmare is an employee who has done something wrong and will not admit to it or recognize it. This type of employee cannot be corrected or retrained. There is only one solution and that is to remove the employee from the company.

        My husband got written up at work. He was beside himself, he had never been written up for anything ever. Gosh, he was upset. I asked him what the write up said. (He forgot to do Important Thing.) I said, “Well, did you forget?” He said yes. I said, “Fifty percent of your problem is SOLVED.”
        He had a look of shock on his face. How can this be?
        The employees who do not admit to making a mistake or having a problem cannot be helped. Employees who recognize that something is wrong are the people who CAN be helped. Admit to the problem/mistake and rebuild from there.

      6. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        It sounds like by the time the information came to OP’s manages (or a complete picture of what had been happening), it was so severe that firing everyone was the only reasonable outcome. If this had been caught earlier, then training may have made sense. But OP and her team’s behavior was so egregious, relationship-hemorrhaging, and reputation-damaging that by the time it showed up (in customer complaints, exit interviews, complaints to HR, etc.), there was only really one reasonable thing they could do, and that was to excise the a team that had become completely corrupted.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      This goes back to the above quote.
      “If you don’t hear it then you will feel it.”

      OP did not hear that she was scapegoating her own employee, so now OP feels like she has been scapegoated. That’s happening for a reason, OP.

      (Sorry the quote is not accurate, but that’s the general idea.)

  12. ENFP in Texas*

    There is so much wrong in this person’s letter that I don’t even know where to begin. The OP admits to sabotaging the employee, directly disobeying their management, trying to freeze the employee out so they’ll leave, and yet thinks it was the ex-employee’s fault that the OP was fired without severance and says “I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn”?

    I’m hoping the OP can take some courses in managing people in order to learn what managers really do. Because even with a Masters, that knowledge is severely lacking.

    1. Treecat*

      As someone with two master’s degrees I will say: they don’t teach self-awareness, maturity, or humility in grad school. You’re on your own for that.

      1. Salamander*

        Same boat. Two master’s degrees. But I don’t know if the LW would listen to me if I said this, but I’m gonna try anyway:

        You are behaving in a very dysfunctional, immature, and ultimately destructive fashion. Your management style has hurt you, it’s hurt your “friends.” You all have lost jobs based on the environment you fostered and allowed to continue. Put another way: you failed your team, your “friends.”

        This may have been what your college experience was like, but this is not that. This is the workplace. You are required to be fair, impartial, and productive. You have to adult up. And you’re going to have to do that, whether you like it or not, because you are not going to be hired for a management position anytime soon. You are going to be managed. You are not going to be managed the way you managed other people. You will likely have someone who looks at what you do very closely, given your history. Try to learn the norms from them.

        I am very curious where LW got the idea that the workplace was supposed to be a group of chums that drink and have a good time. People keep telling you, over and over again, that it is NOT like that, and it is NOT a success that you fostered an environment like that. That was not a success. That was you emulating a social structure earlier in your life that is untenable in and adult, professional environment. You all may have had fun, but having good time is not a mark of success or a sign that you are a good manager or had great charisma or whatever. Likely, it meant that you goofed off a lot and crossed a lot of boundaries.

        If you were my friend, LW, I would encourage you to see a counselor or therapist during your period of unemployment to unravel this. This is going to haunt your professional life for a very long time unless you get to the root of what caused you to create this. No one else created it. You did. You need to figure out why so that it doesn’t happen again.

        1. OxfordComma*

          “I am very curious where LW got the idea that the workplace was supposed to be a group of chums that drink and have a good time.”

          TV? There are certainly tons of workplace comedies out there and maybe along the line, the OP assumed that those were appropriate models?

          There’s a fine balance about friendship in the workplace and it can take time to learn that it’s great to be friendly, but can be tricky to be friends, particularly with the people you manage. But it sounds like the OP has had over 5 years to learn that. Going forward, should you land a job, my suggestion, OP, is that you stick to friendly.

          The other thing is…I work with people that I don’t personally like. We all do. But they do their job and they do it well and as long as everyone’s polite, whether I like them or not is immaterial. OP, if you want to foster a team, I’d suggest there are more productive ways of doing that, and that social interactions, particularly ones involving alcohol, are the wrong way to go.

          1. Salamander*

            “The other thing is…I work with people that I don’t personally like. We all do. But they do their job and they do it well and as long as everyone’s polite, whether I like them or not is immaterial.”

            This is a great point that should be underlined and in bold. Getting along with people we don’t like is a huge part of being in the work place.

            1. SSS*

              That’s the basic golden rule of employment…. You don’t have to like your co-workers but you DO need to treat each other with professional respect. If your employees are not following this basic code of conduct, they need to leave.

          2. Betty Cooper*

            Heck, I’ve got a direct report I don’t like all that much. But I do absolutely everything in my power to make sure he never knows that. It’s not his job to make me like him, and it’s 100% my job to manage him effectively, no matter my personal feelings.

      2. Anthro M.A.*

        Ooh oh oh! I can actually speak to this! In my Master’s program in Anthropology, in my Urban Anthropology seminar, we actually DID learn about these things! True, it was in the context of working within marginalized, urban populations in which your and their cultural values and practices may be foreign to each other (despite being born and raised in the same county!), but it was one of the most enlightening, fulfilling classes of my life. I take the experiences I learned about from my professor and her books and use them daily. I’m not doing anything important with my life now, but I take the duty to practice community seriously.

        1. Treecat*

          Haha as I was typing up my comment I was thinking, “I bet someone with an MSW or who studied sociology or something will actually have taken a class on this.” Glad to be proven right! I have an MS and an MLIS, and it wasn’t part of the curriculum in either.

        3. ArtsNerd*

          Would love any and all reading suggestions you can provide in the open thread! I work with a non-profit that could really use these resources.

        4. Anne (with an "e")*

          I agree with Janey, ArtsNerd, and constablestark. I would be very interested in a reading list.

  13. GigglyPuff*

    Honestly OP, like Alison says, you really need to start understanding or your career is going to suffer. To be perfectly frank I can’t help but wondering if the entire thing was about this “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”, and you were actually just worried that she was going to succeed beyond you?

    Otherwise you’re also missing the entire point, you talk about protecting your team, just because you weren’t the one to hire her, or really even like her, doesn’t mean you get to force her out, she was part of your team and you didn’t protect her.

    Also your employees aren’t your friends, they are your employees.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      I’m also wondering OP, if you notice the similarities in your actions and the perceived (from the info we have) of your bosses? The entire story has the implication that the employee was a “favorite” of senior management, and that bothered you. You do realize you did the same thing, you took work away from someone who was hired to do that work specifically to give it to your “friends”. The only way this would have ever been appropriate is if you had performance concerns with the employee, brought them up to the other managers, and got THEIR permission to reassign the work.

      I ever much think you need to look into the unwritten workplace rules. There is almost always going to be a hierarchy, there’s only so much push back you can do (leaving out stuff like illegal things) before you need to move on (not that it sounded like you even pushed back, just did things your way), alcohol during business hours, physically there or not, is not going to fly (yes there are exceptions, know them before you do it), and you can’t screw up a reports performance evaluation just because you felt like other managers were being too generous, that’s not about performance that’s personal.

      You very much need to learn to separate work from personal, standard business operations are just that, business. Everyone is expendable, everyone has a ranking and a place, because of you, your company lost business and an employee they saw as having long term potential value for the business. You lost them that business and the future business, that’s why you got fired.

      1. Lance*

        And regarding performance issues… LW, you say you weren’t satisfied with her performance, but other parties in the company were. At that point, I’d have a serious look at whether there was any personal bias at play in your assessment of her work, because if multiple other people think her work was good, there’s likely some truth to that.

        1. boop*

          YES! That’s what I was noticing- from even the LW’a biased accounts, it sounds like The Co-Worker was VERY good at her job.

        2. Alton*

          Not only that, but I think the OP needs to realize that it wasn’t just her opinion that mattered. Unless the feedback from clients was actually mistaken (like if they attributed things to the employee that she didn’t actually do), they’re entitled to have opinions about the work they receive, and those opinions can matter. The manager’s job is to look at the big picture and the context when evaluating feedback, not just override feedback they don’t like.

        3. Kate 2*

          What’s weird is that OP says employee’s performance wasn’t that great and she wasn’t impressed, then says that employee went above and beyond and tried to make her look bad.

          OP how can someone doing sub-par work make you look bad?

    2. JustaCPA*

      Trying VERY hard not to pile on so I’ll just say I agree with this.

      It appears your biggest issue with this person was that she would supplant you readily, easily and shortly.

      I think if you WANT to be a manager, you need to do some SERIOUS self review and reflection.

      And like Allison says, read all the comments form the first post.

      1. DivineMissL*

        +1. I was horrified reading this whole post, and I also found it hard to believe that this was for real . But the key phrase I read was the OP saying, “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.” I think the OP felt threatened by this ex-employee from the start, and found every way possible to sabotage her. And then sucked in the other employees to be her minions in the process. Very sad – I hope the company hires back the competent one who left, now that the coast is clear!

        1. Kbo*

          I picked that up also. LW felt threatened and sought to make the co-worker into the “villain” of the story.

          1. Marie*

            Exactly. It’s also amazing to me that this was LW’s best attempt to create a narrative painting this worker as a villain, and she only succeeded in making herself and her friends look terrible and everybody else look so wonderful that we are all wishing blessings upon them.

            If you can’t hear anything else, LW, at least take away from this that your written communication skills are unreliable in describing your intended narrative, and your written narrative instead generated 900+ comments about your lack of professionalism as well as admonishments from a manager to not be too mean to you.

            Hopefully you do not come across this way in business correspondence as well, though if you do, you might not realize the damage you are doing to those professional relationships, as other professionals do not treat people they dislike the way you do. You have likely burned more bridges than you know, and depending on how small and communicative your field is, your reputation may be significantly damaged.

    3. la bella vita*

      I have worked at a place where the mentality was that experience at the firm was *so much* more important than experience anywhere else. They still can’t figure out why so many amazing experienced hires don’t last long when it’s obvious that it’s because they’re valued less than people with way less relevant experience. It sounds like this company (or at least this team) has that mentality if the LW cannot fathom how someone with a decade more experience could possibly outrank her in two years.

    4. Wren*

      Yup. In that quote, OP doesn’t seem to realize that the Company doesn’t exist to further her career goals, but to further its own business. OP stymied and then lost them an employee they hired to fulfill certain goals they’d previously been lacking in capacity.

    5. Blue Anne*

      That was the part that stuck out to me too. I actually said “Oh, right” out loud when I read it. It seems likely to be the whole cause of LW’s feelings.

    6. Istanbullfrog*

      When I read this sentence ( If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.) it all made sense. Mocking ex employee when they needed help, taking assignments away, LITERALLY demoralizing her. This letter writer makes me feel like the B BEST MANAGER EVER today. I’m not perfect, but holy hell, I’m light years from this.

  14. LadyL*

    In my field most managers are just people who were promoted because they were good at their job, not because they have any real skills in managing people (think like a curator at an art museum who gets promoted to head of department for knowing art so well, and now their job is managing 15 people and very little art). Often the employer doesn’t even so much as get them into any kind of management training, not even like a Saturday morning seminar or something. I see that turn into toxic management all the time.

    I think this letter is a great example of the fact that being a good manager is a skill like any other, it requires talent, training, and someone with the passion for it. LW seems like they were truly in over their head. Obviously well-trained people can still make poor choices, but it seems like LW didn’t even recognize that their choices could be a problem. Hopefully they get better guidance for the next step in their career.

    1. LeeGull*

      Yes! This!

      And then the struggle becomes asserting yourself over your new reports who used to be close work friends – and establishing new boundaries around this new professional relationship. It sounds like that didn’t really happen here – OP wanted to still be part of the in-crowd and do the beer runs and picking on coworkers who were different – and iris understandable that with no management training or previous experience with direct reports, OK had no idea how to do that. Hopefully this will be a good time for reflection for the Oon but it sounds like she is pretty set on the idea that it was everyone else’s fault but hers.

    2. Observer*

      True. But even someone without training should be able to understand what Allison (and a lot of the comments) are trying to tell her. What is really troubling is the lack of awareness and lack of integrity that the OP displays.

    3. SarahKay*

      Oh, so true! When I worked in retail the department store group I worked for required you to pass two timed maths tests and and English one if you wanted to be a manger. The maths tests were done without the aid of a calculator. I like maths, including mental arithmetic, so no problem. One of my co-workers, who was a far better manager than me (I wasn’t a *bad* manager, but she was excellent), took another year to get promoted from supervisor to manager because she struggled on the maths tests.
      Seriously, in real life, *we have calculators*. Managers need to know how to manage. For everything else, there’s calculators.

    4. Argh!*

      Exactly. My boss is one such person. She lacks people skills in general but she is obedient. She wasn’t promoted for her own judgment but for her willingness to implement what someone else’s judgment is. Her “meetings” are indistinguishable from email forwards, and her one-on-ones are basically gate-keeping for grandboss. She nevertheless thinks she’s an excellent supervisor, and I only realized this after having terrible results from following her advice.

      I hope OP’s organization also learned a lesson from this — they need to be more pro-active and be sure that all managers have been trained properly… and re-trained! It’s easy to become complacent, as OP did, from having everything go well with a team that hasn’t changed for awhile. If that team works it may be due to the supervisees having figured out how to deal with the supervisor rather than the other way around.

    5. Doug Judy*

      I totally agree with this point. Managing is usually less about the technical aspects of the job and more about human relations. The manager does need to have experience on the technical side but I’d always prefer someone who was good at their job but fair and compassionate over the rock star employee who thinks everyone else is an idiot.

  15. Dulf*

    LW still thinks the only person who could have been a target of her retaliation was… not the employee she forced out, but the team member who took the bullying Snapchats. Troubling.

  16. Mr. Rogers*

    The really odd thing about this letter to me is that they’re describing their own actions in very negative terms, not really like someone trying to gloss things over. There are some excuses, yes, but all in all they’re reporting a lot for details of their own bad behavior. But also they seem to not have learned anything and continue to argue their case? Very curious.

    One lesson is I think is pretty widely applicable though is that often you don’t have to agree that something was right or wrong in the workplace, you just have to know that doing it is likely to get you fired. Take that lesson from this, LW, if nothing else!

    1. Anna*

      I feel like the reason they’re reporting their own bad behavior is because they see nothing wrong with anything they did, as evidenced by the following interaction with Alison. The OP cannot fathom they are a shitty manager and created a horrible environment for their employee. Show-offy? That’s clearly professional jealousy as well as middle-school attitude.

      1. Solidad*

        I think this is framing.

        Studies show if you ask “Are you a rapist?” everyone, including rapists, will say “no, of course not!” If you ask, “have you ever had sex with someone who was passed out?” or “have you ever gotten someone drunk to turn a ‘no’ into a ‘yes'” some of those same people will say yes.

        She knows she did the action, she just does not think that the rules apply to her. She wasn’t mean girl or a bad manager in spite of x, y and z actions.

    2. VivaL*

      Yes. This. I couldnt figure out what it was that made this update seem a little different than others. The ‘describing my own actions in negative terms’ is exactly the thing that is a bit odd.

      Agree on the lesson to take too.

    3. Breda*

      I also found that third paragraph baffling, but I think it’s actually a list of the things management told her were the case, not necessarily that she agrees with them. It’s not framed clearly, though.

    4. Tex*

      Defensiveness.

      They knew what they did was wrong, but it was subversion for ‘the greater good’ (as defined by OP, not upper management).

  17. Czhorat*

    Wow. Just wow.

    LW, if you’re reading this, there are lessons to take:

    1) Unless you own the company, it’s not yours to decide who will move upward, who won’t, and what wprk to give them. Your directors hired this employee for a reason. You repeatedly ignored her. That isn’t OK.

    2) Having fun and friends at work is obvously fine. Trying to deliberately make the people who aren’t in your friends group uncomfortable so they’ll leave really isn’t. This is why one needs to tread very carefully when forging friendships with subordinates.

    3) You seem to assign a great deal of import to levels of education. In very few segments of the workforce are these as relevant as you see them. Once you have a job and have done it for a while, where you went to school and even what degree you achieved is not going to make a tremendous difference.

    You said this was your first management job and that you’re young. The lesson to take from here? You need to learn to better balance your personal likes and dislikes with professionalism. There are many traits of a good manager; the one you missed on is the very basic trait of fairness. Treat your reports well, even if you don’t like them. ESPECIALLY if you don’t like them.

    Good luck. I sincerely hope you learn something from this.

    1. sweetknee*

      I started to type a response to “what should I learn?”, but this is so well worded, I just give it an “AMEN”.

    2. Noah*

      I disagree with (1). In most companies, including LW’s, there are managers charged with determining who gets promoted. The problem here is that LW exceeded her own authority in this regard and disregarded the authority of other managers (presumably non-owners) to make promotion decisions. Ownership isn’t really relevant here (especially if, for example, it’s a public company).

      1. Czhorat*

        Fair point; bigger picture, it isn’t LW’s role to create upward paths for their friends because of personal affection. In most companies there are rules or, at the very least, guidelines as to who moves up and why. LW’s main metric appeared to be, “The team and I like to hang out with this person”.

        Yes, a manager has some autonomy. LW was managing capriciously. That isn’t OK, for advancement or any other reasons. If you’re a sole proprietarship, then it’s easier to put the people you personally like in whatever position you want and let the chips fall where they may.

  18. Jubilance*

    LW, I implore you to read the comments to the original post, and what Alison has told you. And sidenote- just because the site is called Ask A Manager, doesn’t mean that Alison is obligated to side with the manager. Alison and the commenters have all told you, this isn’t how you manage. You opened your company to a lot of liability and they did what they felt was best, and I completely agree with them.

    Before you even think about taking another manager role, please read the archives here, especially the posts on how to be a good manager. Really consider if you have the ability and the temperament to manage effectively. Also think about if you’re able to take direction from your leaders – you mentioned that you didn’t agree with decisions about how work was assigned and that’s not how to handle a directive from your leaders in the future.

    You can come back from this but it’s all going to come down from you being honest with yourself and learning some hard lessons from this experience.

    1. Noah*

      “And sidenote- just because the site is called Ask A Manager, doesn’t mean that Alison is obligated to side with the manager. ”

      Right! Imagine: “Dear AAM: I’m a manager. I stabbed one of my reports in the chest. I’m in the right, don’t you agree.”

    2. Tuxedo Cat*

      On a related note, I’m not sure what the point is in writing in if you aren’t at least somewhat receptive to hearing a different POV.

  19. Backroads*

    I wish she had learned more of a lesson as those will be essential in her work life. I also hope Ex-Employee finds a less dramatic team.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      I hope the ex-employee’s former dotted-line manager reaches out to her to let her know what happened with the OP and team. It probably won’t be enough to get her back, but you never know.

      1. paul*

        Is that considered appropriate/good when there’s been issues of bullying? I know in a few other letters it’s either backfired or not helped. My instincts (see above me not being a manager) would be that it might help sooth some relations with the former employee, but I don’t know if I’m right, possibly right, or crazily wrong.

        1. Lance*

          Honestly, it depends. Considering all the negative factors (that we know about) appear to have been stripped out, and she could move on to her originally intended role, sure, it could help. But at the same time, there’s no guarantee she’d even come back because of the negative experience she had at the company (even if it wasn’t the fault of the company on the whole).

          1. paul*

            I was more thinking as a “we’re sorry this happened, we’ve done what we can to fix it and please don’t hold it against us in future business dealings” more than a please come back gesture.

          2. Natalie*

            Nah, you wouldn’t be trying to get her to come back – she has a new job and also moved, I think. But you might want to let her know what happened because she’s a trusted figure in a smallish industry, and that has an impact on the reputation of both the company and the upper management as individuals.

        2. Chinook*

          I have been head hunted for a job where I was later bullied into being incompetent and fired. If the person who recruited me but was never my manager let me know that the bullies were let go, I would atleast get to know that karma does exist.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I think the answer to that varies, just like people vary.

          The root of your question is would the lost employee find it of value to have her old job back? No way to know for sure. But there really is no general standard for this type of thing.

          I think the best thing the company could do is offer her a glowing reference. Perhaps they could say, if you ever decide you would like to try working here again, we would be very happy to hear from you.

          What happened to her at this company is enough to send people into therapy. My guess would be she is done here.

      2. napkin seal*

        Wouldn’t that be a fantastic update! Sounds like ex-employee was a great asset to the company.

  20. irradi*

    I was going to write in that I’m totally confused by her irrational downgrading of her direct report skills while she basically admits that said employee was meeting her goals as evidenced by EVERY OTHER person contributing to her review, her sales, her presentations, etc. “We didn’t think she needed help.” Ok. But then I realized: this is a situation that just sounds like jealousy. Between the “masters” comment and the LW admitting her fear that her direct report would get promoted over her, it seems like she felt threatened and is coming up with weak reasons she’s justified in feeling that way.

    1. fposte*

      Or it’s just a bubble. More distant admin and clients like her? Just proof of her fakeness to those in the bubble. It’s either that or consider that the whole group might be wrong, and that is, honestly, pretty hard to do, even for people with more maturity than the OP.

    2. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

      Yeah. Bitch eating crackers being good at her job like she owns the place!

      (I also found the “show-off” comment rather striking.)

        1. Toph*

          From the follow-up I’m getting the impression that “quiet” means “didn’t chit-chat with us all day, but instead just did her work”. That’s how you can be quiet and a show off: only talk when it’s relevant to the work you’re currently doing, while everyone else is socializing.

        2. So Very Anonymous*

          I was just coming here to say that! Somehow she’s both too quiet AND a show-off, so, boy, she really can’t win. She must have been miserable.

        3. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

          The most charitable, sense-making interpretation I’ve been able to think of is “she was aloof and stand-offish with us, but she managed to turn on the charm for clients/when someone outside the company was watching.” Which might be true of someone, somewhere, but OP’s opinion of this person was so biased that it’s not likely to be the case here.

      2. Bouwer power*

        True. What also struck me was the negative view the LW had of the co-worker “going above and beyond” and insodoing, made “me and my team look bad”.

        This was definitely part of the source of the LW’s attitude.

  21. Hunger Games Summer*

    Ok – I am trying really hard to just think of possible advice – because yeah you sound like an absolutely nightmarish mgr and team and all consequences of your actions sound justified. That being said it does sound like your cliquey team worked reasonably well together. Perhaps since you are all unemployed now as a group you could all pursue a small business venture together where you can be as “fun” as you wish. Not sure if this is a possibility, but it is all I can think of since no seems to understand the gravity of your errors.

    1. Snark*

      “That being said it does sound like your cliquey team worked reasonably well together.”

      Honestly, it sounds like they were a bunch of low to middlin’ performers who were threatened when someone capable of connecting with clients, putting together good presentations, and behaving professionally intruded on their 40-hour-a-week party, but maybe that’s just reading too much into it.

      1. napkin seal*

        I thought this too! We recently broke up a cliquey sales group (no firings, just changing the teams that work together often), they were so offended because they were “meeting their goals”. Now they’re exceeding goals because they’re more focused on guests and less on how much fun they were having. Meeting vs exceeding can be a huge difference.

      2. whatshername*

        That’s how I read it as well. It definitely sounded like a rather low-performing team. (And really, with lunch time beer runs, how productive can you be?)

        1. Woahh*

          Weekly beer runs! A once in a blue moon client meeting where you order and sip, I can maybe see…and I dont drink alcohol!

        2. Temperance*

          As a beer nerd, I’m going to defend the idea of picking up beer at lunch. Drinking, however, is a different story.

      3. Hunger Games Summer*

        Oh I agree – I didn’t get the impression that they did great work as a team just that they seemed to like working together. I guess that’s something???

  22. Cake Person*

    I’m surprised the director didn’t take action earlier, especially with the dotted line. Super surprised that the LW admits the ex-employee was quite effective in her role and still wanted her gone. Figuring out how to fit productive people together is a huge part of managing, and if she was that successful in the type of environment she got put in, she’d be a super star with a manager and team that knew how to utilize it properly.

    1. Referenceless*

      Oh, well, that’s the OP showing how magnanimous she is: I hated her and wanted her gone but I’m so professional I’ll compliment her.

      OP, part of life is working with, being neighbors with, being related to, etc., people you don’t like. Learning to deal is an important life skill, especially if you have your heart set on management.

  23. The Unkind Raven*

    I just wanted to say thank you to Alison for posting the update. I know she has qualms sometimes about posting possibly inflammatory things, and recently even said in the comments there was an update she wouldn’t publish. I would have even been happy to see this with closed comments; I really enjoy the updates, and while I enjoy the comments I’d rather have the updates regardless if people can respond or not. This doesn’t even need to be released from moderation. Thank you again, Alison.

    1. NotThatGardner*

      agreed- thank you alison!

      out of curiousity, i must have missed it – did she say which one she wouldnt publish an update on/do you have a link to that comment?

      2. The Unkind Raven*

        I ‘m sorry, I don’t have a link! It was pretty recent, though; maybe in a weekend thread? I wish she hadn’t said it, because of course I would love the update, even if there were no comments. I feel like today’s post has worked out well. I don’t recall if she said what letter the update was for.

        1. Brogrammer*

          Oh dear. I’m really interested in an update to that letter, but you’d need to post it either with comments closed or with all comments being moderated like this post, and I know that takes a lot of time.

          For what it’s worth, you’re a champ handling this post today with everything else that’s going on in your life.

        2. Just Me Here*

          You’ve closed comments in the past. I can understand if that’s against your blog; it’s the only solution I can think of.

        3. The Unkind Raven*

          Respectfully, if the OP submitted the update, shouldn’t you find a way to publish it?

          I’m clearly biased, though, in my enjoyment of updates.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I don’t think the submission of an update obligates me to publish it. In this case, I talked a bit with the OP about my hesitation, so he knows where I’m coming from.

            1. Myrin*

              I gotta say, I’m really glad to hear you talked some more with Henry the OP. I was squarely on his side in the original thread and was so sad and disheartened to see what kind of comments he had to read that I went away from it thinking that he must think that writing in was a horrible mistake and that this is a terrible board – I’m assuming that he felt a bit better and encouraged by your personal conversation, which makes me very happy.

        4. Troutwaxer*

          I saw the “whitesplaining racism” thing a little differently. It was obvious in reading that discussion that the OP didn’t understand the difference between their own personal view of racism, however correct and accurate it might have been VERSUS the way our legal codes frame the issue of racism. Then stuff got bogged down in Black-vs-White when the real issue was “personal view” vs. “legal realities.”

          By the time I figured out what was happening and got ready to astound everyone with my extremely wise reframing of the issue ;-) you’d shut down the thread… but I’d be very interested in an update on that particular story. Can you post an update and turn the comments off immediately?

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I don’t mean to be unkind, but this is an example of everything that was wrong with the original comment thread. The issue/problem was not about personal view v. legal issues at all.

            That said, I would be really interested in the update, if you’d be willing, Alison. I’d be tempted to close the comments on the update, just to avoid relitigation of all the problems that led to the closure of comments on the original post.

            (Regardless, thanks so much for publishing this update.)

            1. Troutwaxer*

              My idea of “personal view” versus “legal view” is something I took out of the context of the thread, not someone literally writing, “This is the legal view of the issue and this is why you’re wrong,” but that many of the non-OP views of racism seemed to come out of an experience with their employment, or their HR dept, or whatever. But the other thread was several months ago and I’m comfortable agreeing to disagree unless one of us wants to do a deep-dive into that thread, which argument I think Allison would probably rather not read here.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                Oh, I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying—I definitely had the wrong/inverted understanding of what you were saying.

        5. NotThatGardner*

          wow. i missed the original post and just looked and… wow. i 1000% understand you being hesitant to post an update, those comments are — man, i feel for henry. thanks for your total transparency, as always. if you do decide to post the update with comments closed, i’d love to hear how it worked out.

    2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Same here Alison. Thank you for all that you do!

      It’s got to be a tough line to walk to watch for constructive comments without completely shutting down commentary. Updates with no commenting are fine with me, too! (I just want to KNOW, usually…)

  24. Summer Shandy*

    Puts into perspective how ludicrous it can be for normal, adjusted individuals to find decent work in this day and age. You can do good work and it won’t matter for some people. Makes me want to become a rancher and ditch this corporate lifestyle.

  25. KBo*

    Alison, thank you for your continued diligence and I can see why you’d need to moderate this particular entry.

    I read this update completely agog.

    LW, I’m going to say this as kindly as I can, in life you cannot and will not always like the people whom you work with, for or supervise. Please take the time to see the situation from the point of view of the co-worker, HR and your managers as well as your own. Kindness and empathy for team member are just as important as having strong technical skills and are far more important than having an MBA. You completely mismanaged this situation and weakened the overall impact your team could have had on its client base. This is a key factor you need to understand moving forward.

    Let the idea of suing the co-worker go, it will not fly.

    I can only hope you understand this, in time.

    1. SarahKay*

      Wow! I’d misread the update, and thought LW wanted to sue her ex-employer. Which would be a bad idea, due to lack of legs upon which to stand. But wanting to sue the ex-employee?!? So much no.

      LW, please, please, *please*, stop considering this as an option. The ex-employee did nothing except excel at her job, and then leave when it became clear she was effectively being sabotaged by you. She told nothing but the truth in her exit interview. IANAL but I’m 99.99% certain that you would not win any legal case, if you could even find a reputable lawyer to take you on, given the facts.

  26. Myrin*

    I’m spinning on my own axis a bit after reading this so I will only comment to ask something:

    “I still don’t understand why getting angry over someone not coming to be first but going to HR is that big of a deal.”

    Is this a typo and it should be “not coming to me first”? But even with that change, I’m completely not understanding that sentence. Oh no, wait, upon re-reading, I think I just got it: OP is still angry about her employee going to HR first and she doesn’t understand why her anger is that big of a deal. Am I getting that right?

  27. FormerHoosier*

    I think there is definitely an opportunity for self-reflection here. Somehow there was a significant miscommunication or misunderstanding about what your company’s expectations for this employee were.

    I would gently suggest that your employee leaving for some very legitimate concerns which then resulted in your company losing clients and leverage. That alone is reason enough to let you go for many companies. However, while I do support having a good time in the workplace in appropriate ways for most companies allowing employees to go on beer runs is not appropriate. And yes, even if the employee is not on SnapChat, it could be bullying if she was still made to feel uncomfortable about it.

    Being let go for any reason doesn’t feel good. I hope that once some time has passed you will be able to reflect on this experience and change your behavior in the future.

    1. MCMonkeyBean*

      It sounds like the company’s expectations for this employee were communicated perfectly well, but they chose to ignore and defy those communications.

  28. Arbynka*

    The only thing I am going to say right on is that I find this update very frustrating.

    On other hand, It just made me think of that one OP who really dug her heals in comment section – the one who got some medical certification, was returning to work, did not get a job as a receptionist in medical facility, found out the receptionist who was hired worked in tire place before… She then appeared in comments under different thread saying how it was difficult to hear all that feedback but when she calmed down she found it helpful. It was one of my favorite moments on AAM. I wonder if there was ever more update on her ? I hope she is doing well :)

    1. CityMouse*

      On the other hand it is heartening that the employer took appropriate steps to remove a bad manager.

    2. fposte*

      She was a commenter for quite a while after that–months at least–and she had a really kind heart for people in distress. I don’t think she ever officially took her leave, but her mother had some health problems that were taking up a lot of time and complicated the job hunt; I presumed that posting here just fell by the wayside as a result, and like you, I hope she’s doing well.

      1. Arbynka*

        I can’t believe I missed that – her posting. I have been feeling lately like I am turning stupid. I actually went to the doctor and medically everything is OK with me but darn :( I don’t feel like I am function like I am suppose to.

      2. Natalie*

        Is that the person who used Jobseeker as a handle?

        This whole scenario reminded me (in a contrasting way) of the manager who was jealous of her employee, had a rough time in the comment here, and IIRC was let go as well, but just had a completely different attitude through and through.

        1. fposte*

          It was that or something like it, yes. I really admired her for coming back after she had not necessarily initially covered herself in glory. It also made me hope that other letter writers were similarly taking a little time to digest after initially defensive responses, even if we didn’t always see it play out.

          1. yasmara*

            It’s very human to be immediately defensive and it can be hard to take a step back and admit you did something wrong, but that’s how you (we, me, all of us) grow…

  29. Princess Carolyn*

    So, what I’m seeing is that OP values things like loyalty, teamwork, and formal education. The problem here is that those values aren’t what makes OP’s former company money — at least not compared to things like skill, professionalism, and, y’know, actual sales.

    Some of OP’s behavior would have been fine if the company’s mission was to support her social life and give her team something to do five days a week. If, like most people, you work for an organization with a mission to make money (or a mission to serve a population or the greater good or what have you), managing your employees the way you manage your friend group isn’t going work.

    I hope the change in environment will help OP see this more clearly at her next job.

  30. special snowflake*

    LW I’m a bit confused about why you thought it was ok to completely disregard your director’s instructions. Presumably if people had disregarded yours this flagrantly you would want an action to be taken. If it helps at all swap the thinking -and put yourself in your director’s shoes. You assigned a task to someone who disagreed with having it assigned to them or that it was assigned to them and never did it. Now the company loses the chance for new business (like the brewery) over something that the person you wanted doing the task would have done right.

    Aside from the legal and moral issues at play here (and there are many) – there’s also the basic cannot follow instructions – and that means they cannot trust you.

    1. boop*

      YEAH! She took work meant for The Co-Worker away from her?? I’m just… so agog at the new information in this update. One thing that really stuck out to me was how well The Co-Worker performed even though LW and the rest of the team were working against her. Upper management loved her, clients loved her, other departments loved her- she was so loved that her leaving meant the company LOST BUSINESS and fired the group that forced her out. Co-Worker, you are an inspiration. #yougoglenncoco

      Sadly, all this did was to reflect even more poorly on the LW.

    2. Spicy Spice*

      Yeah, that’s what got me (one of the many things that got me) as well. The whole section was basically saying that the company and director had a plan but OP figured she knew better than they did so she did whatever she felt like, and now can’t understand why they’re upset about that.

  31. Granny K*

    From the post above “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.” (Being quiet is showing off? Whaaaa? ) This sentence is a great example of the disconnect of this LW in what happened vs. her perception.

    It seems like this LW would rather be right than be happy.

    2. Persephone Mulberry*

      This comment stood out to me, too. The OP and her team saw the employee’s skill at connecting with clients as “showing off” when it sounds like…that’s literally her most valuable contribution to the company. It’s why they hired her.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Which makes me wonder, what was the rest of the team doing? If doing presentations and connecting with clients is not a valued skill on a sales team…

        …honestly, I just ran out of words there. Is the OP really saying that the employee’s ability to do her job well is a bad thing? And by extension, that must mean that the rest of the team are not doing their jobs well, which is actually what OP wants from her staff…

        …damn. I’m actually speechless here.

        1. Granny K*

          Well the rest of the team were fired, so the answer may be ‘the opposite’ of doing presentations and connecting with clients.

          1. Anne (with an "e")*

            They all (except the bullied, ex-employee) seemed to think that doing brewery runs would somehow help attract the brewery as a client. The OP does not mention that this strategy worked, so I am assuming that, after ditching the bullied employee every single week for months, that the brewery is not, in fact, a client. Meanwhile, the bullied ex-employee was bringing in business.

            All of this just boggles my mind.

            I am a teacher. I have taught for over thirty years. I have to teach every single child who attends my classes. I do not get to pick and choose my students. Being a manager, I believe is somewhat analogous. It seems to me that a manager should manage everyone assigned to their team equally and fairly. How would the OP like it if a new student transferred into a class and the teacher not only allowed, but actively encouraged the other students to harass and bully the new student? What if that new student were a sister, cousin, niece, or daughter of the OP? How would the OP feel if she herself were the “new kid”?

            The OP reminds me of Snape and the bullied employee reminds me of Hermione, except there weren’t any fellow Gryffindors there to help protect her. Poor Hermione was left to deal with a group of Slytherins who were freezing her out and calling her mud blood behind her back. She bravely stuck it out while doing exemplary work. Then she made her escape to greener pastures where I hope she is surrounded by numerous Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, and Ravenclaws.

            1. Anne (with an "e")*

              It’s very sad that I feel obligated to add this because I personally believe it should not matter, however, based on the OP’s stated educational prejudices, I feel that I should mention that do have a MA and a MEd. Perhaps the OP will maybe listen me.

      2. Snark*

        And she was probably hired to teach the rest of the team how to do that, in the consulting role she was hired to do, which suggests to me that this is not about fit, or friends, or management style, but about feeling threatened by someone who arguably should have had OP’s job rather than her.

      3. Ogress*

        “She was better than us at some aspects of the job and that made us nervous about our own performances.”

    3. Jen S. 2.0*

      I was flabbergasted by that too. Departing employee did not create drama and was very good at her job. That made her coworkers…angry? Whaaaaa?

      1. wintersnighttraveler*

        As a quiet person, this has actually happened to me! My quietness was interpreted by certain types of people as snobbery or stand-offishness or a superiority complex. No, people, I am just quiet! And a little shy around groups of people who all already know each other well! It’s intimidating to be the odd person out. This interpretation of quietness says a hell of a lot more about the projection of the manager and the team than the ex-employee.

        1. Snork Maiden*

          Yep, me too! I’ve had people come up to me later after getting to know me and saying, “We thought you were a snob who thought you were too good for us, because you were always so quiet.” I was like, “Uh, thanks…”

        2. Annabelle*

          This has happened to me too! Thankfully not in a workplace, but it was something that happened a few times in undergrad. Also I can totally imagine myself being ever more quiet if I sensed that my new boss didn’t like me. I really feel for the former exmployee here.

        3. sap*

          I am not a very quiet person in most scenarios.

          This is a group of people I would be quiet around. :/

    4. Kaboobie*

      No kidding. She was being a “show-off” by taking her work seriously and doing it well? This smacks of jealousy, as does the concern that the employee would someday have a higher position than the OP. Therefore the OP basically sabotaged her.

    7. Violet Fox*

      Makes me wonder if she was the only woman on the team. Just speaking from some of my own experiences…

        1. Julia*

          What if everyone else was male, though, and the OP wanted to be the only woman among bros?

          1. Denonciateur*

            I had a very similar experience recently. My team had a bro culture initiated by one person who negatively impacted a lot of people in the company and encouraged by manager who participated in the (sometimes sexual) banter. I was the only female in the team aside from my female manager who stated in a department meeting that she preferred to work with females. So sadly this can and does happen.

  32. No Thanks*

    I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.HR and my regional vice president stated she had been hired to fill a role for a growing segment of our business and should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team. By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name. During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.
    I mean if you can’t even read what you’re writing out here in a self-reflective way, you’re not ready to learn the lesson you’ve been handed. Try reading your own words as if someone wrote them about you, or your loved one. You are being incredibly underhanded, dishonest, jealous, and your “insubordination” alone is cause enough for correction, not to mention being fired. It seems like your superiors recognized this in you and your team, and most likely were tired of your managerial style.

    2. wintersnighttraveler*

      Especially this: “I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)…” So neither her experience nor her education were enough for you (and BS on the experience being in a different sub-set)? You are straight up admitting that you created a no-win situation for her on your team and in your head.

    3. Alli525*

      I’m so glad someone else picked up on the jealousy – especially when she talked about her employee theoretically getting a promotion (because of all her incredible work and value!) just because it would put her above LW, who let’s not forget has an MBA instead of just a lowly BA, in too short a time span for LW’s liking.

      Another clue: since Employee had a dotted-line reporting structure to LW’s boss, LW really should have realized that Employee had a special level of protection/favor that the rest of the team did not. An MBA apparently doesn’t mean much when you can graduate without an understanding of ethics and office politics.

      1. la bella vita*

        So, here’s something I found interesting. The LW is 28 and has been in her job for 5 years and has an MBA. She could’ve done the MBA part-time, although I would find it surprising since – very generally speaking –
        people with only a couple years of work experience are strongly encouraged to go full-time with part-time/weekend programs being designed for people with more experience. If she went straight after undergrad, she would be a prime example of what can, in my experience, make people wary of hiring people from programs that allow that – the tendency for some bad apples to think they are masters of the business world who know it all when, in fact, they have little to no real world experience. I’ve seen some smart people who entered the workforce with master’s degrees (MBA or otherwise) who ultimately ended up being awesome need to get smacked down a little by someone senior reminding them that they were still entry-level and needed to chill out and act accordingly.

        1. Natalie*

          Ah, good catch. The timeline makes me think it may have been one of those 5-year bachelors-and-masters-combined programs, which I have always been wary of.

          1. Artemesia*

            The most successful MBA I personally know went directly to Harvard from his undergrad and set the world on fire and retired as CEO of a Fortune 500 company after nothing but amazing success. But yeah — most MBA programs want experience first. And there are lots of masters programs that are not MBAs and there are lots of 5 year programs that are mostly a way of delaying entering the workforce. I always recommend that people not do a grad degree until they have some real world experience and now for sure why they are pursuing the degree. This is completely true of professional programs; academic programs are a bit different as they are focused on mastery of an arcane niche of a discipline and not as job prep and the motivation should be intellectual.

            But a masters per se is only valuable if the person who has it, can do stuff better.

    4. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      I sometimes work with someone who acts like only idiots don’t have a PhD. Hardly anyone in our large (30+ people) department has a PhD, and most people really hate working with her. She picks her direct reports based on how much they will kowtow to her every whim. She is rude and condescending to everyone she doesn’t consider her equal, and more than one person has left the department to get away from her–some of them, she seemed to be deliberately trying to drive out.

      Working with her, on those occasions I have to, is deeply unpleasant. LW, if you’re reading this–you’ve made yourself sound an awful lot like her. Do you really want to be a manipulative, rude elitist? If not, consider adjusting your attitude. There are plenty of “smart and dedicated” people out there who decided to apply their smarts and dedication directly to their career instead of to more academics. You are not better than your ex-employee, and I’m quite sure you missed a golden opportunity to learn an awful lot from her.

  33. more anonymous than usual*

    I had a boss like this. The team wasn’t so bad, but I dealt with someone just like this LW who wanted to push me out because she didn’t think I fit in. This boss only looked out for the team members she liked, gave them the projects destined for success and piled me up with 3x the amount of work one person could handle and they were all those bottom of the barrel projects that are destined to fail before they set out of the gate. She wanted me to fail and did everything in her power to undermine me, gaslight me, and make other people think I was inept. (When in fact any ineptitude I may have displayed was due to being so overworked that things slipped through the cracks.) I knew how disliked I was by my own manager every single day until she left the company. It really made me doubt my professional skills and experience to be so mistreated, and it’s been difficult to recover from. I urge you to think about the damage you do when you purposefully try to make someone quit because you don’t like them or think they fit in. You are doing damage to them every single day you manage them, and you absolutely should lose your job for that sort of abhorrent behavior. I wish my old boss had been taken out before she left on her own free will! She’ll never know how terrible she was – she was so high up that no one cared what I had to say, so I stopped telling people and just suffered silently while looking for another job. (Which was difficult in fact because I’d been told how lazy, useless, and slow I was for 2 years so I’d started to believe my 16 years of very positive, high-achieving work experience meant nothing.)

    1. Old Admin*

      I feel for you.
      How horrible for both you and the OP’s ex-employee to have long, long experience completely devalued and to be so mentally damaged by one manager’s unchecked gaslighting and bullying.

      I’ve been there myself, and had that manager tell me to my face he wanted to get rid of me, that I didn’t fit in. That was after 5+ years of basically developing the entire branch of my work there. He, too, was an overconfident snotty young manager who thought a reign of terror would create the best results. It lasted two years, with us very pale and quiet minions tiptoeing around him, doubting ourselves, hanging on to jobs in a terrible economy.

      He was summarily fired for completely ruining a large project and running it into the ground. Not, however, for what he did to us, in spite of complaints all the way up to the CEO, who signed off our write ups and warnings.

      OP, don’t be that manager. Please listen to Alison, and don’t be defensive. Take some management and leadership courses, even if you think you don’t need them. I am sure some of the other commenters will have good suggestions where to go / what to take. Our own CEOs did that, and things changed vastly.

    2. Princess Carolyn*

      I had bosses like this in my first two jobs out of college. It destroyed my self-esteem and made me think I wasn’t good enough to work anywhere. Three years after being laid off from that second job, I’m still working to rebuild some semblance of confidence in my abilities.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, it sucks. I had a boss like that too. They do everything int their power to undermine you. It’s hard to recover. Usually, they’re much more subtle about it than LW was though.
      This situations is terrible. Someone above LW should seek out this employee and apologize for what went down and tell here basically “No, it wasn’t you.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It’s nice to know I am not alone but I am sorry you guys all had these bad experiences.

      My bad boss happened right after my husband died. I got a job and then several quick promotions. I ended up with the worst boss of my life. She out right said that I was old (at 45?) and she said she did not want women working for her. I had two things wrong with me that I could not fix.
      She tried setting others up to dislike me but most of the crew saw through her and realized if she did it to me she would also do it to them.

      When she could not find much wrong with my work, she made up stuff. One day she accused me of X. I said, “that is not true and the proof is in the computer.” She refused to look in the computer and declared herself correct.
      She started threatening me with write ups and dismissal based on these accusations that she made up. Because of my recent loss at that time, my head was in a “no BS” place. Life is too short for this crap, play your head games on someone else, I thought to myself. I gave her two weeks notice. I have no idea what she told the big boss but the big boss stopped speaking to me.
      I really did not need to be unemployed but I trusted karma would handle things from there.
      OP, you’re going at it the hard way. Life does not have to be this hard. Change your mind, change your life.

      1. Old Admin*

        Thanks for sharing, and for standing up for yourself when you were alone in the world!
        Did you find work afterwards, did you ever hear what happened to Bad Boss?

    5. Been There, Done That*

      Wow. Your post reads like you’re my (not evil) twin Skippy. This letter has been a blessing. I thought I was the only one in this horrible situation and that it was a failing on my part to be in it. It’s been an eye-opener to see how much of this goes on.

    6. Denonciateur*

      I feel for you. No matter how strong we are in character, it is difficult to prevent those situations making an imprint, however small, on our self esteem. I am at the point now that I have changed from working full time to doing contract work which is quite lucrative in the country that I live in. I do not think that any organisation will live up to what I think are relatively low standards and that is simply to be professionally courteous and respectful to people in an office.

  34. Devils Advocate*

    I find it hard to believe that any manager wouldn’t know that that allowing drinking on the job (the brewery runs) would be enough to result in termination. Especially in a Fortune 500 company. At the VERY least, hopefully LW learned that lesson (because it doesn’t sound like LW took to heart any other lesson).

    2. Cobol*

      I’ve worked with quite a few fortune 500 companies where this wouldn’t be weird at all. All of them were tech, but interesting how different things can be in different sectors.

      1. Observer*

        That’s true. But insurance is pretty heavily regulated. I can’t imagine any solid company allowing that.

        1. Immy*

          In accountancy – often considered the worlds most boring profession- lunchtime drinking is not uncommon. In fact at the pub round the corner from our office on a Friday it gets super busy around lunchtime and gets busier throughout the afternoon. This is in London though and I know we have a different drinking culture than a lot of the US.

    3. napkin seal*

      Coworkers and I used to go grab lunch at the brewery next door to Old Work and get our growlers filled up so we didn’t have to go during their dinner rush after work. I’d usually have a beer with my lunch before going back. I was hardly sitting at the bar for hours, but running to the brewery was something not uncommon.

    4. Woahh*

      Not to mention the optics of this regarding diversity- there are lots of people who don’t drink for lots of reasons, some of which are protected, and weekly things involving alcohol in a crappy environment like this could lead to some bad situations.

    5. Artemesia*

      I know a company that brews beer on site (not a beer company) and beer is available to drink Friday afternoons. Not my thing, but not that unusual. The brewing was a sort of cool signature of the company. When a new person was hired one of the welcoming things was to let them be the brewmaster that week (or month or however often they did the thing.)

  35. JanetInSC*

    This letter is surreal. The manager doubled down on every single mistake…and admitted a slew of more mistakes not mentioned in the original letter. I’m just not understanding this person’s mindset. She doesn’t want to admit she’s wrong. I hope she can take a giant step back from this, maybe see a counselor, and pursue an altogether different line of work. I do hope this ends up being a growth experience, but I can see it will take time…a lot of it.

    1. Sarah M*

      Honestly, it’s as though LW is making a deliberate effort to fail to understand.

      For what it’s worth, LW (again, I AM a lawyer), with every single follow up email you mention more actions that are legally problematic – *for you*: i.e., casually mentioning that you deliberately gave her assignments to other team members contrary to your bosses’ instructions, that you deliberately froze her out in the hopes that she would quit, etc. I will say though, my favorite tidbit is your desire to sue the employee herself, essentially over what *you* did, repeatedly, over a long period, while she worked for *you* ?!? Words fail me.

      Look, you’ve gotten some very solid feedback on this site, including from Alison herself, and yet you steadfastly refuse to heed any of it. I will tell you that any such suit you may wish to pursue against this woman is likely to fail spectacularly (think: Hindenburg), but since you won’t listen to anyone else, perhaps a lawyer can finally (figuratively) knock some sense into you, for both your own sake and the sake of your future coworkers.

    2. Pearly Girl*

      I seriously second the idea of getting professional help, since the LW can’t see how her own actions reverberated and caused her to fail her employer, be put on probation and ultimately be fired. No one did that “to” her.

  36. FCJ*

    You may know your team better, LW, but your superiors know the company better, and where they want to take it. It sounds like this woman was hired to do a particular job, and you actively undermined her in doing that job, in the process actively undermining the direction your superiors wanted to take with your team and the company. To be totally blunt, I’m not surprised you were fired.

    Rereading your first letter, I saw some inexperience in management (maybe or maybe not in years worked, but certainly in the larger norms of professional culture), but this response really clarifies that you were (admittedly) trying to push her out because you didn’t like her. That’s appalling. That’s not how a functional workplace works. Maybe your superiors didn’t give you any input into the hiring of this person or the direction they decided to take your team, and that would absolutely be a valid grievance on your part, but the way to deal with it would have been to talk to your boss and other decision makers, not decide on your own that you know better.

    1. AMT*

      The first thing is the most important, and it’s one that didn’t come out at all in the original letter! The directors hired an employee for a specific role, and though OP admits she went above and beyond to do a good job, OP didn’t let her perform in that role, didn’t respond to requests for help, and generally froze her out — which led directly to the company losing important clients. This is a bad move with any employee, but for someone hired *especially* for a hard-to-fill position, it almost looks like sabotage. And OP can’t come up with a business case for doing this other than that she “didn’t want to make waves,” that the employee “didn’t fit in,” and that she expected the employee to “earn her way” to the role she was hired to do!

  37. Cathleen*

    “I get that I am a shitty manager unless you actually worked with me but I worked with friends for 5 years. I didn’t want the ex employee to begin with. So I wanted to make it uncomfortable for her to leave and didn’t think I’d lose my job in the process.”

    You were a poor manager to someone who did work with you, though. Even if you disliked that employee, she still worked with you, and you were a lousy manager. The disdain for this ex-employee is apparent in your post. Sometimes people with less tenure than you will advance before you do. “she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five” – that’s not all that strange. My manager has been with our company for quite a few years. One of the people who works under her has been here almost twice as long. Sometimes people can be good at their jobs even if they’re not “smart and dedicated enough to get a masters”.

    I really hope that you can learn something from this experience, but it seems you’re still convinced that you’re right and HR was out to get you and your team.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Arguably, getting her entire team fired was an exercise in poor management too.

      1. President Porpoise*

        I don’t know. Sometimes you have to raze the hovel to the ground before you can build a lovely house.

        I do wonder if the snapchat reporter was included in the mass firing though.

        1. Inspector Spacetime*

          I wondered this as well. Perhaps it depended on how bad the rest of their behavior was.

        2. sap*

          Yeah, this would really suck. “I reported bullying and was fired for hearing the bullying, keep your head down next time you see something fucked up” is the message I would take from that if it happened to me.

          I see why some companies would fire everyone involved for the alcohol thing… Except the employees were TOLD to do it by their manager and their manager told them it was part of a business development task. In that situation, if my workplace had a no alcohol policy and I double checked with my manager, who said “it doesn’t apply because it’s business development,” and it turned out my manager was wrong, I would be bitter for getting fired for following my manager’s instructions. Since the reporting person was reporting bullying, I’m assuming that they weren’t doing the same sorts of fucked up mistreatment of rockstar ex employee.

        3. Juxtapose is Just a Pose*

          I could see management feeling like the Snapchat reporter must go, so that the new team could have a completely fresh start– but if so, I really hope the reporter was laid off rather than fired, with some really generous severance.

  38. LilySparrow*

    So the company invested time, energy, and money in recruiting a special consultant. You intentionally undermined their strategy, diverted specific assignments, and wasted her salary by treating her as an associate.

    Your company lost clients and leverage in the marketplace because you chose to intentionally drive her out. You got your entire team fired because of your choices to not uphold company policy and common-sense team management basics.

    What does it take to become a “big deal?” Those sound like pretty big deals to me.

    1. Princess Carolyn*

      Beautifully said. That’s exactly the information I was trying (and failing) to distill in my own post. Bottom line is she undermined the company, not just this one person.

    2. LizB*

      This is the aspect that I find extra baffling. The higher-ups in the company had a specific goal, and hired someone who could make that goal happen (ex-employee). The LW did everything in their power to sabotage that person, in the process completely obliterating any chance of the company achieving that bigger picture goal. LW, even if you somehow don’t think you were out of line in how you treated this woman, can you understand that big companies exist to make money, not to give you 40 hours a week of chill time with your BFFs? Your job as middle management is to implement the strategies that your C-level folks want implemented. You did literally the opposite of that because of your personal feelings about one employee. If you’re being asked to pursue a business strategy you don’t like, the appropriate thing is to find a new job whose direction you like better, not steadfastly ignore the new strategy in a way that torpedos the company’s market share and is also borderline illegal.

    3. KHB*

      Exactly this. You did what sounds like a great deal of harm to your company and its future in the industry, all because…you didn’t like someone? Because she was older and good at her job?

  39. Falling Diphthong*

    OP, it seems like your management kept giving you opportunities to learn–from this employee, from what they wanted to see her accomplish with your team, from what they decided went wrong–and at every turn you dug in your heels and refused to consider any path other than what you saw as preserving your fiefdom. Which in the end didn’t work at all.

    Consider this: had you behaved differently and implemented a course correction at any of the waving red flags, not only might you still have a job, but all your subordinates whom you claim as close friends whose careers you care about might also still have jobs.

    Harassing people until they quit–with the idea that you can then claim no blood on your hands and no one will argue that interpretation–is not an admired management style.

    1. sap*

      And, in fact, in some states that person could still claim unemployment! So it’s not just morally that you can’t claim clean hands! Society and law as a whole thinks your hands are dirty if you do this!

      Not a comment about this particular harassment until they go away scenario, just… Maybe it would help LW see what is wrong here if LW learns that actually, harassing someone until they quit is seen as equivalent to firing them.

  40. La Revancha*

    (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)

    WOW. Way out of line. That way of thinking will not get you anywhere in life. I believe OP deserved being fired without severance. It’s also clear OP doesn’t think they did anything wrong.

    In my opinion, getting a masters is a lot more hassle than the beneficial unless you’re in a field that requires one.

  41. Big10Professor*

    LW, I want to point out the part about damaging client relationships. Even if you don’t agree with AAM on who was right or wrong in this situation, taking an action that will damage a client relationship is almost never viewed favorably by an employer. Heck, there are plenty of examples where someone doing the “right” thing damaged a relationship like that and angered TPTB. So that’s something to look out for in the future.

  42. Scully*

    “Ok but can I still get some credit for NOT doing it though? Or not firing ex employee? Or for looking out for my team and giving them opportunities? Isn’t that what managers do?”

    This is such a huge red flag to me. It’s so similar to the Nice Guy dynamic, i.e. wanting to get credit for meeting the bare minimum standards of society.

    No. You do not get credit for “looking out for your team”. You were looking out for your *friends*. Ex-employee was part of your team, and you excluded her. That’s not taking care of your team.

    I really hope you take the time to reflect on your actions.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      You also don’t get credit for un-managing. As a manager that was the exact opposite of your job.

    2. Kat G., Ph.D.*

      Also, she only didn’t move the SnapChat-reporting employee because *she couldn’t figure out who it was.* That deserves exactly zero credit.

    3. Havarti*

      When I got to that point, I remembered the immortal words of Lore Sjöberg: “If you are describing yourself as ‘nice’ you are like one of those tiny motels where the sign out front just says ‘Air Conditioning – Color TV.’ You are saying ‘I have nothing to recommend me other than a bare minimum level of acceptability.'”

      LW, you have forgotten the Golden Rule to your detriment. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Even if they are not your friends. What you did to your employee, what you allowed your other employees to do to her was horrible. I must say I’m very disappointed with your follow-up. I suspect if the first round of comments didn’t enlighten you about how wrong your actions were, the second round won’t help matters either.

      You face a long hard road where your beliefs and insecurities will only hinder and harm you. I wish you luck because you’re going to need it.

      1. Dankar*

        I’d never heard or seen that quote before, but it’s so true! I’ll need to remember that going forward.

        But if A/C and color TV are the bare minimum, what does that say about motels that advertise clean sheets? :/

  43. OxfordComma*

    I don’t even know where to begin here except to say, OP, is that if you want to be a good manager in the future, that you need to admit you mishandled a lot here–like a LOT. And that while you want a functioning team who work together well, that having people who bring different experiences and opinions and backgrounds to the table can make that team really strong. It doesn’t sound like you had that at all.

  44. LadyProg*

    If I were you, I’d do the exercise of putting myself in her shoes, specially now that you have to find a new job.
    Would it be fair to be hired for one role, and immediately upon starting realizing your boss won’t allow you to do that because “you have to earn it” now?
    Would it be fair to you that your promotions are impacted by the fact that if you kept the planned trajectory, you’d be higher up than your initial boss and she’d resent that, like you did to former employee?
    I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to be in her position right? So why did you willingly put her there?
    Also bullying doesn’t get any less bad just because they didn’t see it, it’s bad – period. The way people treated her was surely impacted by the jokes being made at her expense, behind her back, and it’s not acceptable among kindergarteners, imagine among adults in thr work place!
    Hope you can find it in you to understand that you did do wrong and won’t do it again…

    1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

      Yes! So much this!

      Also, put yourself in the place of your director. If one of your direct reports refused to give certain assignments to someone repeatedly and you found out that they were doing things that violated company policy and exposed the company to liability (harassment, beer runs), you would probably want that person gone yesterday.

      I’m sorry you’re out of a job, but I hope you learn some empathy because I think it will help you in your professional life and also your personal life.

  45. Intern*

    I really do think this is one of those situations where the Golden Rule would have been helpful. You giving away her duties to your team members because they complained and you “know your team better”? Presumably, at one point in time, you were also a new employee at that company? How would you have felt, knowing that your bosses didn’t trust you and that they were giving development opportunities to other workers? On top of that, this employee was hired specifically help grow a business segment and your decisions led to visible losses for the company. I’m not sure why you didn’t think, at that point, that you should have re-evaluated your thinking and try to at least approach the situation more neutrally.

    With regards to the snapchat, the employee’s unawareness does not negate your accountability. If somebody was badmouthing you, wouldn’t you want to know? If somebody had been bullying, for example, your parents or your friends on Twitter, would you say, “Well it’s okay because my parents/friends don’t have Twitter”?

    You’re right that being dedicated to your work doesn’t mean you can’t have fun. And a good manager SHOULD give their employees a chance for growth a development. But not when it comes at the expense of others.

    1. constablestark*

      On that last note, if she approached the situation in a more neutral, level-headed manner, she could have easily set up an arrangement wherein her teammates would learn from ex-employee/special consultant so that the expertise isn’t concentrated in one person. Management would appreciate that and it would’ve been a way for ex-employee to feel included and valued by the team.

  46. fposte*

    OP, there are many things that can be said about what happened here, but I’m going to focus on this bit: “Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me.”

    You bought into some bad crap there, and I think breaking up this team was utterly necessary even without this person who got hounded. It does not “screw over” employees to assign work to qualified people that aren’t them. It’s absolutely fair and appropriate to do so. The fact that they didn’t like it doesn’t change that.

    It seems like all of the team, you and your staff, really couldn’t tell the difference between what you liked and what was fair/good for the company. And if it’s your company and your money, that’s not an important distinction. But it wasn’t and it wasn’t; you took the company’s money and prioritized what you liked, not what was good for the company.

    I won’t go deeply into the whole freezing-out-the-employee-you-like thing, which is pretty horrific, except to say in work and in life it’s always going to be more ethical to use your words. If you’re not committed enough to a course of action to take accountability for it, you haven’t earned the right to do it.

    1. Nerdling*

      Exactly. When a specialist is hired, they’re hired to do specialized tasks because that’s their area of expertise and because it benefits the company to have someone working on those specialized tasks without being distracted by other, less specialized ones. If you divert those specialized tasks to the rest of your team, you’re telling your management chain that you know better than they do how to run the business. Except that you clearly didn’t know better. In fact, your insistence that you knew better cost the company money and relationships. You sabotaged the company’s attempts to act for its own good.

      I’ll also say that you are, in many ways, responsible for the fact that you and all your friends are now unemployed. Had you managed them properly, you could have developed them into a cohesive team that welcomed and worked with new members. Instead, you allowed them to engage in practices detrimental to the company because you preferred to be a friend rather than a manager. You could have course-corrected the ship for *all* of you if you had managed decently from the outset. The blame doesn’t lie with the employee who left. The blame lies on you.

      1. fposte*

        I’m not going to completely let the rest of the team off the hook–I think to some extent they played the OP like a harp, with the complaining to her that the disliked co-worker got appropriate assignments–but ultimately I agree that it was the OP’s responsibility here that mattered.

        1. Nerdling*

          I’m with you, and I wasn’t trying to excuse them for their actions. It sounds like the whole dang team was a serious piece of work (except the person who reported the SnapChat bull puckey to HR). But as a manager, the OP could have brought them to heel before it got to this point by cutting off the complaining, demanding professionalism from all her reports, and integrating the disliked coworker into the team. They all made their beds; the OP just tucked them in with crumbs instead of making them get out and clean up their mess, and now they’re all lying in it.

          1. fposte*

            Oh, yes, no argument. I’m just not spending a lot of grief over the other fired employees. Not being Regina George isn’t enough to get Gretchen Weiners off the hook.

            1. Jen S. 2.0*

              This analogy literally made me laugh out loud. “Stop trying to make fetch happen!”

        2. Lance*

          That, likely, falls into a new manager trap of ‘I want my team to like me.’ Unfortunately, there are many situations where the team, or members of the team, won’t like their manager… and that’s fine. It’s a natural course of work that there will be some hard and not always pleasant decisions made.

          1. fposte*

            Yes, I’d be interested to know what was chicken and what was egg here as far as team culture and the OP’s hire.

  47. RVA Cat*

    This part leaped out at me: “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. ….she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years.”

    I think the OP mismanaged her team, but the company allowed that mismanagement to become institutionalized. OP’s managers should have nipped this in the bud much sooner. The clique fostered a crabs-in-a-bucket mentality that was pulling down the team’s performance. It’s a shame things reached the point where the whole team had to be fired, but it sounds like they and the OP had become too far gone to save. The fact they were drinking alcohol on company time took this into the realm of misconduct and I’m guessing that is why the OP was denied severance.

    1. Pearly Girl*

      “Going above and beyond for no reason” jumped out at me too.

      You go above and beyond because that’s the way you impress your boss, advance the company and sleep well at night. That’s something to be ADMIRED, not derided.

      1. nonegiven*

        “Going above and beyond for no reason” except the one reason most likely. That is what she was hired to do.

      2. KG, Ph.D.*

        Plus, if your boss and your team are freezing you out, a motivated, career-driven person might cope by saying, “Well, I guess I’ll just keep my head down, do flawless work, and start job hunting!” The employee actually did exactly what Alison would recommend in a situation like this.

    2. SusanIvanova*

      I’m wondering if adding the new team member was their attempt to nip it – she had skills and drive that they lacked, but if they could’ve picked that up from her the whole team could’ve been salvaged.

  48. BlueWolf*

    Wow. There are so many things that could be said. I’m going to focus on the below quote:
    “I get that I am a shitty manager unless you actually worked with me but I worked with friends for 5 years. I didn’t want the ex employee to begin with. So I wanted to make it uncomfortable for her to leave and didn’t think I’d lose my job in the process.”

    Unfortunately, being a good manager is not about being friends with your staff. It is about developing and maintaining a team that works well together and is productive in ways that help achieve the goals of the business. Sometimes (or most of the time?) it isn’t up to you who ends up on your team. And it sounds like your own bosses thought she could do good work if you let her, but you didn’t. You can certainly be “friendly” with your staff, and maybe in certain rare situations a manager could be friends with their subordinates outside of work, but ultimately you should not be exhibiting the kind of favoritism you did here. I don’t blame her for leaving or giving the kind of exit interview that she did. Ultimately, it sounds like your company took her exit interview seriously in order to make much needed changes to their company. Kudos to them for identifying a serious problem and resolving it quickly.

  49. E*

    Letter Writer, please try to put yourself in the employee’s position. Would you have complained to HR if you had been on the receiving end of this treatment? While you may feel that your actions were justified, the law, the employee, and your former employer all disagreed. Surely this indicates that you need to reconsider your actions and take this into account for future employment.

  50. bridget*

    “HR and my regional vice president stated she had been hired to fill a role for a growing segment of our business and should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team. By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace.” This, plus the comment about how looking out for your team members is what managers are supposed to do, shows that the OP came into this from the wrong perspective.

    It is not the primary job of managers to make team members (even as narrowly defined as not including the ex-employee) feel professionally developed and give them opportunities. The primary job of managers (and all employees, really) is to promote the best interests of the company. This certainly should often include developing the skills of employees and giving them opportunities, but the OP was doing so *at the expense of* the company, in that doing so drove away an employee who truly was important to the company’s business strategy and bottom line. If the company loses clients and market share, they rightly do not give a flying fig whether some other, less valuable employees were “given opportunities.”

    1. TootsNYC*

      YES!

      “It is not the primary job of managers to make team members…feel professionally developed and give them opportunities. The primary job of managers (and all employees, really) is to promote the best interests of the company.”

      Our OP was looking down the org chart, and not up, or out.

    2. The Other Katie*

      Ish. Part of the manager’s role is actually to develop their employees professionally (to the extent that’s reasonable for their jobs), since that’s how you keep employees engaged and committed. Boredom is good for neither employee nor employer. That said, the OP should not have been reassigning work that was specifically designated for the team’s more experienced and effective member, but instead should have been finding ways to provide development that was at the right level for the team members, like training opportunities or taking on new projects.

      1. TootsNYC*

        True–but you do that in order to serve the interests of the business.

        I mean, we all want to be decent human beings, but you can be a decent human being and still not advance an employee’s career.

      2. constablestark*

        I agree. If the OP’s ex-employee was brought in as a consultant, taking her actual work away from her and delegating it to her other teammates, who may not have the same level of knowledge and experience not only compromised ex-employee’s purpose and denied her from providing value to the organization, but it was also a direct message to the C-suite that OP did not respect their input and their direction.

        You can disagree with your company’s direction. The time for clarification and presenting rational arguments should have been at the beginning, but once a decision is final, what’s left is execution. If the rest of the team wanted opportunities, I think that could’ve easily been a discussion between OP and HR. There could’ve been a mentorship with ex-employee and the rest of the team, although given the culture with OP and the team, I’m not sure how well that would’ve worked.

        OP, I really hope you and your team don’t follow through on suing the ex-employee. It will not end well.

  51. Cleopatra Jones*

    I hope the LW and her team learn a bunch of valuable lessons from all of this.

    But can I give a shout out to HR and LW’s direct manager for handling the situation so swiftly and appropriately? Some of us have worked at companies that we could only dream that this would be the response from TPTB.

  52. Armchair Analyst*

    Un-managing sounds accurate.
    It sounds like you un-managed your team, though, not just this one employee that did things her own way (the right way).
    Sorry this happened. You sound like a good employee and team player, but perhaps managing a team is not right for you right now.

    1. js*

      eh… I don’t know that she sounds like a good employee or a team player, between the insubordination and favoritism.

  53. Elysian*

    Depending on the state, age discrimination could still be an issue. Some state laws protect against age discrimination regardless of age (unlike federal law, which only protects over 40). It’s a harder case to make, but the OP says flat out that part of the problem was her age, so… yeah. In some places, this IS actionable age discrimination. Either way though, it is bad management.

    1. Koko ¯\_(ツ)_/¯*

      The re-assigning of projects could also potentially present a liability issue if he was taking projects away from a female employee and re-assigning them to male employees without justification beyond he wanted to help out the male employee.

  54. argus*

    Letter Writer, I think this was why you were fired: “By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business”

    That’s not scapegoating. You’ve identified a clear business consequence of your actions.

    2. a Gen X manager*

      Spot-on, argus!
      OP – Another point to consider is that you managed as though your team was the entire business, rather than a part of the larger organization. This is one concrete part of the puzzle of where you went wrong. Your approach lacked perspective and acceptance of your place in the pecking order. In most businesses being a manager who willfully disregards the directions from senior staff is enough to be fired – even without the freezing out of an employee that you’re jealous of, the lunch time alcohol consumption, and social media bullying. I’d suggest that you seek out opportunities to interact with managers and co-workers of a variety of ages and backgrounds to help you on your path toward maturity (even volunteering opportunities – it doesn’t have to be a work setting!).

      1. RVA Cat*

        This. Seconding the diversity of ages and backgrounds. It sounds like the LW’s reports were too similar to her and that encouraged the cliquishness and warped norms.

  55. Jam Today*

    This probably won’t make it out of moderation, since it adds nothing, but I cannot contain saying that I read this entire letter and subsequent exchange completely goggle-eyed at the obtuseness and *malice* the LW expresses. Her behavior was openly insubordinate, vindictive, and ignorant of even their own business strategy, since she froze out the most productive person on her team and her company *lost business* as a result!

    I don’t even know what to make of her contemplating legal action against the woman she mistreated so badly, as if that lady is responsible for this terrible situation of her own making.

    1. H.C.*

      I agree, and was most taken aback with this paragraph in particular:

      My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness. I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.

      As AAM noted in her chat excerpt, LW is still digging in her heels about so many things that are self-detrimental to her (Master’s/Bachelor’s vs work experience, faulting her for going above and beyond, connecting with clients as “show off like”); unfortunately, between the original letter & this update I don’t think any of the advice/insights provided will go through and she may have to the learn this lesson the hard way again.

      1. Old Admin*

        Re the “Master’s/Bachelor’s vs work experience”:
        I remember when I started working in, ah, Cast Iron Teapot documentation many years ago in a European country (because I know how to make them, how to use them, AND spoke/wrote English plus the local language at university level).
        This kind of documentation was totally unheard of in said country, but all of a sudden the Government General Teapot Certification Office (and the real name is even longer) demanded full documentation for all Metal Teapots for high level use!
        Panic ensued in the industry.
        Secretaries and paralegals, backed up by highly unwilling developers who wanted to code, not “write stuff nobody reads”, were struggling to make heads or tails of just what to write, how to format and deliver it, the proper spelling of teapot terms in the local language, and *horror* ENGLISH.
        The economy was terrible, and I (a Steel Teapot Administrator) had been laid off with many others like me. My unemployment ran out, and I grabbed the Cast Iron Teapot documentation job, making lemonade out of the lemon. I invented nearly the entire documentation process and workflows, and bravely battled the developers for their precious information, set up a translation memory system, created company wide spellchecking in two languages etc., while they called me “the new secretary”.

        And there was NO FORMAL TRAINING for this.
        No college course, no private school, no degree, no bachelor, no master, no NOTHING. We all had to invent things on the fly. But I was American, and started to look to just what the US was doing. I was bowled over by the checklists, best practices, books, conferences etc. on Metal Teapot documentation, and started porting that to this little backward country.

        Now, 12 years later, a General Teapot Documentation university course has been instituted here – but people like me have a decade of experience no bachelor/master can replace!! I actually got a mail from a recruiter for G Shaped Teapots :-D , even though I am far beyond their standard desirable age… we’ll see what happens. ;-)

        1. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

          I just think this is so neat! The world is always changing and developing. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? I love that everything worked out for you, and that you shared your knowledge with others, to the point that there’s now a university course. Just amazing.

          1. Old Admin*

            I wish I could say my company appreciates my experience, too.
            However, this is a country that values papers/academics higher than experience, so I haven’t advanced at my company *at all*. Hence my interest in moving to the Big G or or other international company. ;-)

        2. Julia*

          For a moment, I was afraid your story would end with, ‘and after I’ve done all this, they suddenly decided only people with a master’s in cast iron teapot documentation could work in the field’ – I’m glad that didn’t happen!

    2. Seal*

      That’s what struck me as well. Aside from treating the ex-employee terribly, the OP openly admits to repeated insubordination. The ex-employee’s exit interview didn’t damage the OP’s reputation, team, or career – the OP brought it on themselves.

    3. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      OP, please take some time and come back and re-read the comments. Please. Please reflect on them, and even talk to someone impartial about the situation.

      Taking managing out of this completely, your actions were cruel and malicious. Everything you’ve done has been out of spite. Nothing was to genuinely help anyone. It was done to hurt and inflict harm.

      I really hate to say this, because it’s such an overused defence, but all of this appears to be the actions of a jealous person. (Please note the ‘appear’, since I don’t know for sure.)

      But you disliked someone because you felt she had less education and therefore was less deserving of her position. You thought someone being quiet and doing her job was showing off. Your ex-employee likely simply took pride in her work and liked doing a good job. A lot of people are like that, including me. We go above and beyond because that’s who we are. And we treat people how we’d like to be treated. People have gone above and beyond for me, so I always take the opportunity to do the same.

      I implore to please take all of this very seriously. I’ve been targeted by people like you and your team. It’s been years and it still hurts. Your employee just wanted to come in and do her job. She didn’t want to hurt anyone, she didn’t want to play games.

      It’s clear in your letters that there’s someone about the ex-employee that hit your buttons. Instead of being honest and acting with integrity, you have inflicted harm that will last years. If cruelty and spite are who you are at your core, then, well, nothing anyone can do. But if it’s not, and you feel shame, take the steps to do better. You’re getting a bunch of advice here for free. Listen to it. You’re at a crossroads here, and I really hope you take the opportunity to go within and change your behaviour and act with integrity and compassion.

      1. a Gen X manager*

        Agree, Lady! I would supplement your great points with one additional comment:
        To me this quote from LW is at the heart of the whole problem: “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

        There is an inherent competitiveness present for the LW that is independent of any competitiveness that may or may not be present in ex-employee. The concerns about years of service, “earning” development opportunities and promotions according to LW’s personal definition of earning them, the harsh views about the necessity of a masters degree, the “dotted line” reporting structure, etc. This all points to an extreme level of competitiveness, jealousy, and/or insecurity on the part of LW (and painfully absent self-awareness and maturity).

        I’ve read the first post three times, this update twice, and the majority of the comments so far and I am still just completely blown away by the situation, but all of it has a ring of truth and I don’t doubt at all that these are the facts as LW sees them (that it is not fake email).

        LW – Based on your own descriptions in both posts, it is clear that the EX-EMPLOYEE DID NOTHING WRONG. This would be a good place to start facing the objective reality of the situation so that you can create a path forward for yourself. I truly wish you luck.

        1. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

          That’s a really good point about competitiveness! I hadn’t considered that, but it does round out the picture. If OP came from a competitive, intense environment, that would colour her thinking in this issue as well. (I’m extremely non-competitive, just let me do my job so I can go home and sit on the couch.) But I’ve known competitive people, and they took others doing well as a challenge, and even almost a personal affront.

          I think it has a ring of truth as well, and what seals it for me is that it sounds like she started managing at 22/23, and she’s 28 now. It really sounds like she learned bad habits when younger and for whatever reason, only held on to them tighter. (I am not excusing the behaviour in this letter, only saying how it could make sense.)

          BTW, OP has commented and said she’s taking steps to change, so that’s a good sign.

    4. K.*

      Yeah, I read this like ” … She’s just mean. And jealous, and willfully obtuse.” I was wondering if the letter was real because it was baffling that she could be so clueless, so I was glad Alison asked. As a direct result of her “unmanaging,” the company lost so much business it couldn’t afford to lose more AND the brand name (and this was a Fortune 500 company, if I recall correctly) was tarnished. Her mean-girl “leadership” led to her entire team getting sacked, and she’s wondering if she should sue … anyone? What?

      LW, there are lots of lessons you need to learn before you even try to go back to work at ANY level.

  56. Lauren*

    How is it possible that this OP has no clue how wrong she is on multiple levels?

    – OP never wanted the hire, and started freezing her out from the beginning.
    – OP reassigned projects given specifically to this hire and for what she was hired for.
    – OP was jealous, and thinks that even though this hire was hired to build the business and tries to justify it by saying she needed to earn the job.
    – She got the job, this was the job, OP was actively preventing the hire from doing her job.
    – Since the role was to build a service line, OP prevented the company from winning and keeping business by actively removing responsibilities from this hire.

    OP deserved to be fired for above, and I never even mentioned bullying or the fact that OP wanted a ‘fun’ employee. Employees are there to contribute to the work, not match well with the individual manager’s personality and style.

    OP – your job is to help your employees do their work without obstacles, in this case – you were her obstacle. I’m trying to be mean, but you need this spelled out for you as you still think you didn’t do anything wrong. You did. If you can’t see that, then you will have trouble getting a job moving forward. Your interviewers will ask why you left, and if you repeat those parts of your letter where you think freezing out an employee is good management – it is very unlikely that you will move forward to a job offer.

    2. Michael*

      Your last point is what I was thinking. If the OP thinks she was right and her former company is wrong, and she isn’t interested in taking advice, then in her future interviews she should just lay out the bare facts and be proud of her management decisions, and see what kind of reaction she gets.

  57. Loopy*

    I am with Alison’s initial reaction. Can this person possibly be fore real? This mindset is so outside of professional norms and what I’ve encountered in my 7 years in the professional world that I can’t believe the OP can’t see that they were in the wrong.

    If the comments here, Alison’s response, and HRs STRONG reaction (plus LOSING THE ENTIRE TEAM) haven’t made a difference, what on earth will? What more evidence could you possibly need?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Here and in non-work parts of life, it’s not unheard of to encounter people who are told they are wrong, double down, told they are still wrong, triple down, they ask an outside person and are told they are yup definitely wrong, quadruple down, and just keep digging and digging on the theory that perseverance will eventually wear everyone else down and everyone will admit the digger was right all along.

    2. Solidad*

      As a lawyer, I often tell clients “Don’t ask for my advice unless you are willing to take it. To do otherwise is a waste of my time and your money. If all you want is someone to agree with you, you shouldn’t be hiring a lawyer.”

      I cannot imagine being an advice columnist and having people write in for advice and then telling the columnist they are wrong b/c it’s bitter medicine.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Honestly, that bothers me less than the people who weigh in (in the comments or in updates) and never bother to say if they’re going to take the advice or not. This scenario is super common:
        – I print a letter
        – In the response, I give advice
        – OP is active in the comments but never engages with the advice at all and instead just keeps complaining about the situation

        No one needs to take my advice! But if you’re going to come back to say more, at least respond to it! Engage with it in some way, don’t just vent.

        2. This Daydreamer*

          The LW may not take your advice, but you’ve got a huge number of people reading and commenting and trying to make sense of this and how they would deal with a situation with some similarities. I like to think that some of us even see just a little bit into our blind spots because we’re being faced with it here along with the rule that we can only say constructive things.

          We’re all engaging with your advice. And I’m sure I’m not the only one who has learned a lot from your responses to others. I know I’ve mentioned that you helped me get my current job. You also helped me deal with the emotional shredding that came from my old one and you helped me get some perspective on that whole mess. Thank you.

          And now I’ll shut up before I start crying.

  58. em2mb*

    OP obviously isn’t interested in Alison’s advice, but I’m genuinely curious as to how you find another job after a debacle of this magnitude. Are you brutally honest? “I was new to management and dug my heels in when higher ups tried to hire someone new for my team, but I’ve learned from my mistakes.” Or do you just have to cut your losses, switch professions, hope what references you have left will vouch for you?

    1. Lab Monkey*

      I suspect the LW will be brutally honest, because she doesn’t seem to understand or be willing to understand that she was entirely wrong. I don’t think it will work, except possibly with other toxic people.

    2. OxfordComma*

      I would think that if this was something that might percolate through, especially if it’s one of those fields where everyone knows everyone else, that being that brutally honest might be the way to go. Maybe you say, “I was wrong and I have learned from my mistakes. I have done X,Y, and Z to correct for them and am confident that I will not make those mistakes again.”

    3. Princess Carolyn*

      OP might be able to demonstrate a solid track record of doing whatever else she was doing in insurance that didn’t involve management and find a role somewhere as an individual contributor. I would give some serious side eye to anyone who hires her for a management position right now.

      1. InkyPinky*

        I don’t know – there was some intense mean girl behaviour happening, which the OP doesn’t think is a problem. I’m having trouble seeing the OP successfully working even within a team b/c she isn’t a team player and is very much someone who actively creates problems. By which I mean as opposed to a manager who’s just too removed to notice the problems or something like that. It’s not just a management style problem – it’s an ethics, a creating problems, and an insubordination issue.

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I feel like step 1 is you don’t apply for management jobs.

      Step two is “I was fired for making very poor management decisions. I’ve done a lot of soul-searching, and I’ve come to the conclusion that management is not the right area for me, at least not for the moment, but I feel very confident in my skills as an individual contributor in [insert areas relevant to job].”

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Well, OP’s current attitude (“I got fired because I knew better than my bosses”) will not get her hired.

      Her options are
      1) Remorse – with no hint of that in any of the letters or comments, I just don’t see it happening
      2) Obfuscate – ‘the company was moving in a different direction, and laid off my entire team’

      Pretty sure that’s what will happen. The real question is what will happen with referrals.

      OP: Don’t apply for a managerial job. You are not ready for it. You will be fired in a series of ever-shorter job tenures, which will eventually be so visible on your resume’ that no amount of obfuscation will be able to hide it. Find a job as an associate and spend some time with a therapist. Do not apply for management until you understand that diversity is a boon and that rules do apply to you. There’s a dozen other things you did wrong, but if you start with those two, you might get the rest before your career implodes.

  59. Interplanet Janet*

    My mouth is hanging open. O_o It’s a shame for the OP to not have taken AAM’s responses a more to heart. The further information provided in the update, along with the OP’s tone, certainly confirms the OP has much to learn about being a people manager.

    1. Health Insurance Nerd*

      Maybe the lesson is that this person is not meant to manage people. So many feel that management or director roles signal career success, when there is nothing wrong with being a superstar individual contributor.

  60. Aquila*

    LW, that employee was on your team. You had the same commitment to her as you did to the other members. Instead of helping her integrate with the team, you participated in isolating her.

    2. nonegiven*

      She could have used the opportunity to have her team help the employee when she asked and as often as possible and maybe learned some things that would help in their professional development, if they weren’t too busy snapchatting stuff about her with their manager’s approval.

  61. Snark*

    Among the many things that jumped out at me – one or two per line, actually – this one was special:

    “”HR and my regional vice president stated she had been hired to fill a role for a growing segment of our business and should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team.”

    So you unilaterally and against the wishes of the regional VP downgraded her position such that her duties involved less responsibility and power than she was specifically hired to have, specifically so as to not offend the tender egos of the people she was hired to advise? Good God, woman, I’d have fired you for the insubordination even if absolutely nothing else had gone down.

  62. MuseumChick*

    Oh boy OP. I’ve been trying to think of what advice you need to see where you when wrong.

    You may disagree with the details but at the end of the day you 1) Created an extremely cliquey toxic work team 2) Lost the company an employee THEY were very happy with. 3) Lost the company valued business 4) Broke company policy that as a manager you should have been aware of 4) Open the company up to the possibility of legal action.

    I think what you don’t get is your team doesn’t have to like you for you to be a good manager. You had a friend circle not a work team and that is extremely unhealthy. Just because a coworker you like/consider a friend complains about something doesn’t mean you get to just blow off the way your company/boss wants something handled. Just because co-workers you like want to go to brewery doesn’t mean you get to cosistantly single out one person to always be left in the office etc.

    Until you accept that you were in the wrong 100% you will have a tough time rebuilding your professional reputation.

  63. Grits McGee*

    Oh dear, OP I hope you can get some distance on this so that you can understand what Alison is trying to say to you, because I don’t see how you can ever be an effective manager if you don’t recognize that you aren’t being scapegoated- you forced out a revenue-generating high performer (who it sounds like was keeping your whole team afloat) because she was “making you look bad” and she didn’t fit in with your clique. This isn’t an unfortunate mistake that blame has to be pinned on– you made a series of deliberate decisions that undermined your bosses, lost money for the business, and opened the company up to legal liability.

  64. Natalie*

    Oy vey.

    Or for looking out for my team and giving them opportunities?

    But this woman you pushed out was *part of your team*. My read on this whole update is that this is your core problem – you never viewed this person as part of your team, so you didn’t treat them like that. Hell, you didn’t even seem to treat them like they were part of the same company! Your actions sounds like someone leading a team on some competition game show and trying to sabotage the other group. Which… isn’t how work works?

    I sort of doubt you’ll come back to chat, but if you do end up reading this, think a little bit about how you expected the rest of your time managing at this company to go. Did you never anticipate needing to hire someone new, someone who’s not part of the original clique? I’m genuinely mystified as to how you were thinking this would go.

    1. LabTech*

      I think this is the crux of the issue. She never managed the “problem” employee in good faith, even going so far as to sabotage her work and frame her hard-won achievements negatively (“showing off”).

  65. F M*

    In the spirit of constructive commenting, I’m going to mention this line, which I can identify with a bit:

    “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

    In my first serious full-time job, after I’d been there for about a year, my manager left to do other things, and the assistant manager moved into her role. After a few months, the new manager came to me and another person working in the (very small) department and said that she was going to look into hiring an assistant manager, and how did we feel about that?

    My first reaction was not very professional! (As I said, first full-time serious job.) I cried. I said I might quit if some stranger was supposed to come in and start telling me what to do. I was indignant. I’d been there for a year, I knew all the processes, I was good at my job, and they wanted to hire someone from outside to take the next slot up? To be my boss?

    Well, yeah. They did. And it was fine! He was a great assistant manager. He was friendly and clever and fun, he was good at his job, he did a great job of managing, he picked up on all the departmental procedures lightning-fast. Great guy. Wish I was still in touch with him.

    But I still remember that first reaction: that it wasn’t fair, because I was there FIRST and had been there LONGER and why was someone else going to be ABOVE me under those circumstances?

    The thing is, LW, that’s a childish reaction. It’s based on childhood experiences where older people get more privileges and younger people get fewer, where you earn your way to new things just by sticking it out and moving up a linear progression path. Even in the adult world, sure, there are plenty of areas where experience and seniority give more benefits, so it can look like this is always true… But it’s not always true. It’s not how everything works in a business environment. “I was there first and I’ve been there longer” is not a trump card that overrides everything else.

    So I think that’s something for you to examine, specifically, and adjust for your future expectations. I can empathize with that part; I think it’s very common as a reaction in people who haven’t had several jobs, or been in the workplace for all that long. You’ve been there five years, but if this was your first serious job out of your academic program (which I assume went at least through MA level, given your comment about the employee’s degree), I can see how this might’ve blindsided you.

    But, yeah. Doesn’t work that way in the professional world.

    1. Dankar*

      This is a really understanding, and useful comment. I had nearly the same situation in my first job (working part-time as a coordinator while I worked on my masters). My assistant director left and I took on a number of his duties. When his job was finally posted, I applied and even though I got to the final stage, they hired someone with YEARS more experience than I had.

      I felt the same way you did–processes! internal candidate! already working well with my coworkers!–but it was the right call. I did my crying at home, thank god, and finished out my contracted time there even when my supervisor offered to let me take my last two weeks off, paid, to spare me working under the person who got the job. It was the right decision, and that job got me killer recommendations for my job search.

      OP really needs to do a little maturing. While her behavior was horrendous, I do think she was thrust into managing too early, with too-little real-world experience, and was allowed to continue for 5-6 years, it sounds like. This experience seems to have reinforced, in her mind, that everything was fine. Until it wasn’t.

      She needs to go back and learn the basics, and learn that business is about business, not friendships and cliques. It should never be personal, even when we feel personally attached to our teams, our projects, etc.

      1. Observer*

        Well, the OP does say that she had a number of meetings with the higher ups about this person, and she just ignored it. So, clearly she wasn’t entirely being allowed to do what she wanted.

    2. Natalie*

      Ugh, this brought back a memory of a similar time in my life. When I started my first job I had really rather terrible managers that kept hiring fresh college grads for their main admin position and then being mystified when said young people moved on 2-3 years later. Needless to say, they weren’t doing much to develop me as a professional.

      A few years later, in the midst of a management shake up, I’d clawed my way into a different position with some actual potential for me, and a new admin was hired. Our newish manager was her mentor, and thus spent a lot of time working with her directly and helping her gain more experience in the company. She was promoted 8 months later.

      I was so angry and upset. It triggered all this other brain stuff I live with (shame and self-loathing, primarily) but it’s much less painful to be self-righteously angry. And I let that anger convince me to remain cool with my co-worker (who now shared an office with her) and our mutual boss. I don’t think they ever especially noticed – I’m fairly cool with all of my co-workers – but I’m sure there was an opportunity cost to that reaction.

    3. Antilles*

      Good comment. I think LW is misunderstanding how seniority works – it’s usually based on years in the *industry*, not just the specific company. The other employee may have only been at this company for two years, but if she had ten years at another place first, that means she has 12 years of experience compared with LW’s 5.
      Though frankly, even if that wasn’t the case, it still *wouldn’t matter*. Some people move up more quickly. Some people luck into being in a role with lots of open spots above them to move up. You can be disappointed if you feel like you’re moving too slowly, you can try to find new opportunities, you can swap companies…but what you *cannot* do is point to someone else and say “I should be above HER because of our relative years of experience”.

      1. Solidad*

        And seniority really doesn’t count in nonunion jobs. Ability to fill the purpose of the job does.

        If you are 20 years old but can do the job better than the 60 year old, you are hired.

        All companies really care about is ability. The reason seniority exists as a concepts is union-based jobs. For anything managerial in the USA that isn’t union, seniority means nothing.

    4. SarahTheEntwife*

      Yes! I actually had the same knee-jerk reaction in a situation where intellectually I *knew* I really wasn’t qualified for the position and would possibly not actually enjoy it even if I could handle the responsibilities. But it still felt Unfair, with an added dose of embarrassment at knowing that I wasn’t good enough (which wasn’t even necessarily an expected trajectory for my position, but that doesn’t matter to jerkbrain thoughts).

      1. F M*

        Exactly that! In my situation, I realized within a week or two of the new assistant manager being in place that I would’ve been lousy at the role, and years later, I can say that with even more confidence. I didn’t have the experience, aptitude, or temperament necessary to manage even two laid-back friendly employees at that point in time.

        But I reacted as if I were in seventh grade and being told a fifth-grader was the boss of me now. It wasn’t faiiiiir. I’m just glad that I got over it fast enough that it didn’t cause me serious work issues at that job.

    5. CB*

      Also just on numbers – iirc the LW is 28, with an MBA, so maybe five years in the workforce? The iced employee is in her 30s so maybe 12-15 years in the workforce. The LW is clinging to her seniority within this firm, but her three years headstrong there counts for nothing when this rockstar was brought in for her advanced skills.

  66. LS*

    LW, being able to look objectively at your own behaviour, understand how you contributed to (or created) a situation and what you could do differently in future are important life skills and *critical* for anyone in a management role.

    Alison and many commenters have given you a lot of constructive feedback which you choose to ignore. Do consider the fact that nobody here knows you and so none of the comments are personal – then think about why your view of the situation might be so very different to everyone else’s.

    You are still looking for ways to justify your behaviour, defend your decision to ignore your director’s instructions, ignore the damage you’ve done (lost clients, etc) and pass the blame.

    You criticise your team member for “her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client”. That’s something that should be valued and encouraged, not sneered at.

    Until you develop some perspective and the ability to introspect, you’d be better off avoiding management positions.

  67. Anonyna*

    Alison, thank you for asking LW directly if this is all real. I’m struggling to believe anyone could be so open about their blatant maliciousness and utterly horrible management and work ethics. And to appear as though they think their behaviour is totally normal and acceptable! Really, thank you for asking. I can’t even be satisfied with this update because LW has learned Absolutely. Nothing.

    1. JulieBulie*

      Honestly, I was going to make exactly the same comment. It’s not that I wanted the letter writer to be humiliated and exposed as a prankster or anything like that. It’s just that the scenario and attitude were so horrible that I HOPED it would all turn out to be fiction.

      This letter (and the updates from LW) were like a couple dozen nightmares rolled into one. With all I’ve witnessed in the workplace, it’s not terribly hard to believe that a nasty little department like this could exist. I just don’t want to believe it.

  68. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

    It sounds to me like ex-employee was a rockstar and LW and friends were somewhat mediocre. I’m basing this on where the LW says “…her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.”

    LW – Take this as an opportunity to really think about what you have said here. She was developing presentations and connecting with each client. These are GOOD (even GREAT) things! She was not making you “look bad” by going above and beyond. YOU made you look bad by not also going above and beyond. She was just working to the best of her ability, which is what we should all strive to do at work.

    1. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Yes, that really stood out to me. It’s a very high school thing to say. If you’re thinking this long into adulthood, there’s a problem.

      She was not making you “look bad” by going above and beyond. YOU made you look bad by not also going above and beyond. She was just working to the best of her ability, which is what we should all strive to do at work.

      Exactly.

    2. fposte*

      I think you might be right and that this could be pretty important. OP, you were unhappy that this person was on a faster track than you, but it also sounds like you put a lot of energy into things that weren’t work-beneficial, like the brewery runs, which would explain your slower trajectory. Did you consider raising your own work level?

    3. NextStop*

      Yeah, getting mad at someone for “showing off” by doing her job well sounds like the attitude of a slacker who’s upset that the bar is being raised.

    4. Kate 2*

      Yep, LW openly says in the update that Employee was better than her and the team in some areas and it made them nervous.

  69. Peter B.*

    Making it uncomfortable and trying to make someone quit is not somehow better than just firing them. And retaliation is something that any properly managed organization is going to take very, very seriously. Many times people get in more trouble over the appearance that they retaliated than over any original (usually hard to prove) discrimination issue.
    As for LW’s behavior around this issue, I hope you take some time to think about this and how it plays into your future career goals. In effect, you made decisions about someone based on your dislike for them, even when instructed to do otherwise by your organization’s leaders. And you created serious potential legal issues for them. You should work hard to never repeat this pattern of behavior. Nobody is perfect, and in cases like these the challenge is to really learn from the experience. As for taking action against this former employee, I would stay away from her. Nothing good will come from trying to do anything like that.

  70. Mona Lisa*

    I’m sorry, LW, but you want credit for not doing things that, in your estimation, would make you even worse? I’m having a hard time reconciling “Shouldn’t I get credit for not directly firing the employee?” and “I forced her out by taking away the projects she was supposed to be doing and making her life miserable by putting her through a semi-hazing situation.” (You said she had to “earn” her spot on the team. She earned it by being hired.) It sounds like you made her work life so untenable that she eventually needed to seek employment elsewhere to get the experience she was hoping to have at your company. I don’t see how that is more charitable than outright firing her. I don’t see any mention of trying to work with her to incorporate her skills into your team or to find a way to make the best out of what you considered a bad situation. I really feel badly for your ex-employee who sounds like she went above and beyond to produce good results and contacts for a team that didn’t value her contributions.

    I hope you can find a way to see things from her perspective as a rather innocent bystander and learn from this situation. Maybe in the future, you could try to find ways to work within decisions your higher ups have made even if you don’t agree with them instead of passive aggressively taking your frustrations out on other people.

    1. Mary*

      >> It sounds like you made her work life so untenable that she eventually needed to seek employment elsewhere

      This is called constructive dismissal in the UK and it is illegal. Is there any equivalent in US employment law?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, but it’s not illegal here. You might end up getting unemployment compensation when you otherwise wouldn’t have, but it’s not in itself against the law unless it’s tied to something else that’s illegal (like race based discrimination).

    2. Anon and off and on again*

      Given that the employee wasn’t reporting solely to LW, would LW even have been able to fire her? Or would the higher-up to whom the employee was also reporting be involved in any decision like that? Trying to get credit for that sounds kind of like me trying to get credit for not using my eyeball lasers to set my ex-boss’s hair on fire.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You don’t get credit for “not firing” someone.

      You get credit for developing that person and for giving them a chance to show what they can do. You get credit for building a cohesive team that does spectacular work.

      The key part that you are missing here, OP, is that management WANTED her there. They did not want you to fire her and they did not want you to force her out.

    4. Geoffrey B*

      What LW did was *much* worse than if she’d just fired the employee. The damage from bullying can last a lifetime.

      It was also dishonest. She clearly knew that her bosses wouldn’t approve of firing this person, so instead she tried to get rid of her in a way that wouldn’t look like her doing. That’s pretty blatant insubordination.

      Rule of thumb, any time a plan starts sounding like “make it look like an accident” it’s probably not an ethical plan.

  71. littlemoose*

    There is a lot to unpack here, and I realize that the LW wrote this shortly after being fired, so they may not have great perspective on or distance from the situation yet. But one thing I wanted to mention is that I think resentment of people who “go above and beyond for no reason” and “make everyone else look bad” is a counterproductive mindset. It sounds like the new coworker came in with experience in a different area and was doing well at helping your department gain business. That benefits everybody! I think an important part of working with others is recognizing that you’re a team and that others’ contributions benefit the entire organization. Being resentful of your coworker’s dedicated effort isn’t productive, especially if you’re the manager and that resentment leads you to exclude that employee and work against her. And that employee isn’t doing great work to make other people look bad – she’s just doing it because she cares about her job and is putting in the effort. I don’t understand the mindset to devalue another employee’s contributions, especially from management.

  72. DCer*

    Well, I think this letter offers a great opportunity for many of us who read this blog. We often see the train of thought of the person on the other side of this – who can’t figure out why their boss would do or say certain off the wall things or engage in behaviors that are totally counter to building a functioning, productive workplace.

    Here is your answer: Some people are horrible bosses and don’t even realize it. They think they’re doing the right thing. They think they’re taking the correct steps. And they think that others will agree with them.

    That clearly won’t fix the problem if you’re in one of those awful boss situations. But for me, I think it offers a reminder that some people are just awful and there isn’t anything you could do about it.

    1. fposte*

      Yes, this is genuinely fascinating; I’ve never heard the candid rationale of somebody who really took against somebody valuable just for being different before, or at least not at such length.

  73. Dee-Nice*

    “LW: Ok but can I still get some credit for NOT doing it though? Or not firing ex employee? Or for looking out for my team and giving them opportunities? Isn’t that what managers do?”

    Okay, here’s the thing: You WEREN’T looking out for your team. Not your whole team. She was part of your team. You state that she developed presentations, developed connections with clients, and went above and beyond, so on some level you knew she was a good employee and that she therefore had value to your company. By failing to encourage her continued good performance and creating a highly unpleasant work environment for her, you lost value for your company. Your company likely felt that your poor management was a liability and was likely to lose them future valuable employees (which is probably true, no? If you had another employee you didn’t like you’d probably treat them the same way and they would also leave). Why would they retain you as a manager when you were only committed to managing people you personally liked? That is too unreliable a standard. Regardless of whether you think how you treated the employee was wrong, your company needs to know that you will reliably do your best to manage your reports.

  74. Sue Wilson*

    Usually when people write-in with incorrect actions, they try to make their actions make sense in context, but you honestly haven’t here. Let’s review:
    A) You decided your manager’s decisions and opinion didn’t matter.
    B) You decided your clients’ opinions didn’t matter.
    C) You decided that passive-aggressiveness is management.
    You got fired because of these things. It wasn’t that your employee didn’t fit in or gave an accurate (you haven’t disputed or countered literally ANYTHING she said) exit interview. It was that your reaction to not wanting that employee was to behave in a way that literally risked your business.

    My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.
    To answer this: No. She told the truth! HR and your boss confirmed it was the truth! They fired you because they didn’t like the things you were doing/the things you were doing violated policy! So the damage was caused by you doing the things, not by your employee reporting it. The method they gained they information is not relevant!

    Lesson: Just because you manage someone doesn’t mean you are the sole arbiter of reasonableness. If you’re going to do something, make sure the person who can fire you, and the company would also think it reasonable, at the least. This is just self-preservation. Start with that.

    2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Oh wow, I somehow missed that the first time! Unbelievable. They didn’t do their jobs, and they’re angry at her????

    3. CityMouse*

      I covered these kinds of actions in a class at law school and am always shocked by these kinds of questions. This is actually one if those instances where the first amendment applies. No, you cannot use the court system to punish someone for telling the truth about you, even if it made you look bad.

    4. Old Admin*

      “She told the truth! HR and your boss confirmed it was the truth! They fired you because they didn’t like the things you were doing/the things you were doing violated policy! So the damage was caused by you doing the things, not by your employee reporting it. ”

      This so very, very true. Thank you for pointing that out.

      “My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee”

      Nope. That’s retaliation! Remember , the illegal thing you’re not supposed to do?

    5. Artemesia*

      The group that ought to be talking lawsuit is the rest of the team. Of course they don’t have a legal case, but they have a moral one i.e. ‘we all got fired for just doing what our boss encouraged us to do, like make beer runs on Fridays.’

  75. Artemesia*

    The thing that shines through all of this is that the OP was punishing someone for being effective. It was ‘show offy’ to be good with clients and bring business; it was unfair that she might be promoted above him although she didn’t have a masters degree; a degree was equated with virtue and performance was dismissed as unimportant; fitting in was important but getting the job done was not and somehow losing clients was less important than showing her who is boss. Being able to make the best use of a diverse team to do a great job is the essence of management. Putting people in their place, especially when what annoys the boss is that the person is more competent than the rest of the team, is not the role of management. By creating an environment that focuses on socializing and prioritizing time served and friendship, the OP cost his whole team their jobs and the company business. Bottom line is that it is critical to keep your eye on the goal when a manager and not use the position to punish people you don’t like especially if they are among the best performers.

  76. Dulf*

    I’m also surprised that the employee who got forced out wasn’t the LW’s direct report, and was also reporting to LW’s managers. In this case, it appears she was aware she was being insubordinate when she did what she did anyway, but it seems it isn’t even “(very) bad management”! Instead, it’s just “bullying a colleague.”

    To LW: justifying these actions is difficult no matter what, but at a bare minimum you should reconsider the idea that you were supposed to have absolute power over this employee no matter what.

  77. Anon Anon*

    “During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her.”

    I thought this piece of information was very valuable. There are many times when managing people that you functionally supervise someone, but they really report to someone else (often more senior). I think it’s important for everyone to recognize when they are placed in this situation that the dynamics are slightly different and you do have to keep those in mind as you manage that person.

    And to the LW, there are going to be times when someone who is more senior than you is going to see the value in someone you don’t. When that happens it’s incumbent upon you to try and stay open minded and try and see that person’s potential and value, because you will cause yourself problems. And that is going to be true of any organization that you are employed at. I really do hope that you reflect on this situation and take an honest look at how your behavior really contributed to this situation. We all make mistakes. Some of us even make really horrible mistakes. When mistakes happen you have two choices. You can either repeat the mistake endlessly or try and learn from it and not repeat the mistake. I hope that you will try and learn from the mistake.

    1. Adhdy*

      This! It sounds like there were a series of meetings before the employee quit and gave the scathing exit interview. In fact, it sounds like the Director may have been intervening.

  78. Danielle*

    Focusing on the employee and management issue here: If your Director hires a person for a specific job and you don’t feel that the person is a good fit for your team, the right thing to do is have a conversation about it with your manager about why. You would also share your ideas on a more successful way to manage the role and team, backed up with reasons why. If your Director agreed with your proposed approach, then you go ahead and do it your way. If they don’t, you do it their way. What you did here was insubordination, as you mentioned, and that alone is grounds for termination.

    Reading between the lines, it looks like the true reason you didn’t have the employee do the job she was hired for is that you didn’t want her to be more senior than you, as outlined in her assigned development trajectory. It sounds like she was a stellar performer who was valued by, well, everyone EXCEPT you (which should signal something to you), and was a real asset to the company on the whole. It sounds like you were perhaps threatened by her depth of experience, and resentful that a person with a lesser degree than your own and newer to the team would be promoted above you if you had managed her successfully. It would be worthwhile to give your motivation and insecurities a real, hard look in order to find professional success in the future. Best of luck.

    1. Anon Anon*

      My take away was also that the LW was threatened by the ex employee. They were liked and valued more than the LW and her team. Perhaps the LW thought by getting the ex employee to quit that she would “fix” the situation and her status with her boss would go up?

      1. Danielle*

        I don’t think the LW thought that far ahead. Unfortunately, she seems ego-centric and short sighted. Nothing in her letter or responses talked about the value she or her team added to the organization, if any. Just that they were “smart” (because they had Masters degrees) and best buds.

  79. animaniactoo*

    OP, here’s what you strongly seem to be missing:

    • Your job as a manager, is not just to manage your employees and develop them. It is also to serve the business needs of your company. The company lost clients under your management. So you did not figure out how to do that very well.

    • When you are given explicit instructions about certain things, you don’t get to ignore those instructions because you know better. While you’re a manager, you’re also still an employee. So would it be okay for your team to ignore your instructions and go do what they thought was better? Even though it didn’t have the results that you wanted? If not, then it’s no more okay for you to do it, than it is for them to do it.

    You can present an alternative if you feel there’s a different way you want to do it, but you need to present it and get approval on it – and accept it if you don’t get approval and do it the way you’ve been told, not the way that you want to.

    • You don’t have to like the employee. You DO have to try and figure out why your higher ups are so insistent on this person, and see what value they can bring to the team. Regardless of how much more (I can’t emphasize this enough) BOOKLEARNING you and your other employees have. You will get absolutely nowhere until you acknowledge that there are skills and experience that can’t be gained through booklearning, but are absolutely invaluable to performing a job and if an employee has gained them through another method other than officially getting a degree, then they have them and they are valuable – and in fact more valuable than those who are only somewhere along the path to them.

    If your other employees are upset, your job is to address those concerns without giving in to them. To defend the decision if possible and if not possible, then to explain that you understand their issues but this is not something it’s in your power to change. And then if they’re still upset – this is important let them be upset. They will either get over it, or they are not being very professional and you’re letting them get away with that.

    (Splitting due to length)

    1. animaniactoo*

      Managing is in no way about making everyone happy. It’s about doing your best to make them happy WHILE respecting everyone on your team whether you particularly like them or not, and while serving first and foremost the needs of the company (caveat: provided you’re not blatantly abusing and taking advantage of your employees).

      It’s your job to make the employee feel welcome and try to integrate them into the team – because that serves the *business needs* of your company and it fulfills what you’ve been told – that the higher ups want this employee on your team. So you do your damnedest to actually make that work.

      And you do all of this for one primary reason: So that when you have concerns, and you want to discuss them, your words have weight. Because you have shown that you are trying and it’s not just that you don’t want to try it and you don’t respect your company or your higher-ups. You took them seriously, and you want them to take you seriously in return.

      This is fundamentally where you failed. You did not respect your company, its needs, or the directives and initiatives of your higher-ups. You did not look for the value. You dismissed anything that did not serve the priorities you had created for yourself as a manager.

      Alison cannot take your side, because while you had the title of manager, you did not do a very good job of doing the job. No matter how fun/friendly/helpful the people you actually liked considered you to be. These are things you can fix. But only if you can first admit that you need to redefine what you think it is to be a manager and who you answer to in that role.

      1. TootsNYC*

        “Managing is in no way about making everyone happy. It’s about doing your best to make them happy WHILE respecting everyone on your team whether you particularly like them or not, and while serving first and foremost the needs of the company (caveat: provided you’re not blatantly abusing and taking advantage of your employees).”

        In fact, managing is ONLY about serving the needs of the company.

        You keep your team happy, and develop their skills IN ORDER to meet the needs of the company.
        Sure, yeah, you’re pleasant to people because that’s how decent people act.

        But you make people happy at work primarily because it serves the company’s needs by making them motivated to do their jobs. It’s about how they will regard the company, not how happy they are.

        (and as people have pointed out–you didn’t define this ex-employee as being “on your team”–but she was.)

    2. Anon today...and tomorrow*

      “Regardless of how much more (I can’t emphasize this enough) BOOKLEARNING you and your other employees have. You will get absolutely nowhere until you acknowledge that there are skills and experience that can’t be gained through booklearning, but are absolutely invaluable to performing a job and if an employee has gained them through another method other than officially getting a degree, then they have them and they are valuable – and in fact more valuable than those who are only somewhere along the path to them.”

      100% agreed. There are a lot of fields where a degree isn’t all that necessary and it’s more about personality and skills. Sales is one that immediately comes to mind. The fact that clients walked when the ex-employee was forced out by a team that acted so pettily is pretty indicative of the type of skills she had that others didn’t.

      LW, I really think you need to take a good long look at how you behaved in this situation, own up to the fact that you were most of the problem here – not the ex-employee , and work on changing those behaviors. The company did the right thing here.

  80. Health Insurance Nerd*

    Holy sh*t. I know we’re not to supposed to pile up on the letter writer, so I’ll just say that the company clearly made the right decision in terminating their employment, and this is a perfect example of why you should not be close friends with people you manage.

    Just, yikes.

  81. Knitting Cat Lady*

    Wow.

    So, you reassigned task that were given to her by YOUR boss to other team members.

    You, and your team, intentionally ‘froze her out’ to make her quit. That is a prime example of work place bullying!

    And you’re really annoyed that she ‘only’ had a bachelor’s degree compared to your masters and upper management and the sales team really liked and valued her work.

    The function of a degree is to give you the tools to tackle your work.

    A Master further specialises you in your chosen field. All the tools you need you’ve already achieved with a Bachelor.

    And work experience is far more valuable than a degree!

    1. H.C.*

      As someone with a Master’s, LW’s continual insistence that the degree magically makes someone better or smarter annoyed me too, as well as wanting to apologize on behalf of all graduate degree folks with this mindset too.

      1. Artemesia*

        As someone who has created and run masters degree programs, it is the case that many people expect magic from a degree. We had many people who improved their skills and analytic processes getting a degree which translated into being more promotable. But we also had people, often who had not had much success getting and keeping good jobs or getting promoted who thought just getting a degree would make them more important and more desirable and more employable. For a fair number of people it makes them less employable. An advanced degree should always be undertaken for very clear reasons involving the learning that will take place as it is often an albatross otherwise. (not to speak of money loss and opportunity costs)

        1. H.C.*

          Agreed, I pursued my Master’s because it was a field of study & career path that I had a serious interest in AND because I had the means to do so (somewhat – still working on that grad school loan debt now, haha); I know many smart, talented and ambitious folks who would excel in grad school programs but just don’t have the interest and/or resources to attend.

  82. Sled Dog Mama*

    Wow. Allison when you said, on the open thread, you were thinking about publishing this exchange I had no idea it would be this. I’m caught somewhere between this explains a lot and are there really people like this? and I can’t get my jaw off the floor.

  83. BethRA*

    Wow.

    LW, do you really not get why the company might be unhappy that your actions towards this employee cause what sounds like a significant loss of sales? That’s such a basic, bottom-line issue. The higher-ups told you they wanted to build this area of the business, and you – by your own admission – sabotaged those efforts by TRYING to get her to leave. If someone on your team did that to you, wouldn’t you want them fired? And again, you cost them business. I get that you’re upset, and none of us are good at self-reflection when we’re upset, but that shouldn’t be that hard to comprehend.

  84. Jaguar*

    There is a lot of context missing that could change things, but in lieu of that, firing the entire team does seem to pretty drastic on the employer’s part.

    1. paul*

      Not to me. It seems fairly rampant–boozing on company time against policy is a giant no. And the photos of a coworker. And not making goals.

      1. Jaguar*

        Yeah, but if that culture is deliberately being set up and enforced by your manager so you participate in it and then wind up being fired for it, I think you could reasonably see that as a miscarriage of justice (the photo-shaming of the coworker is beyond the pale and automatically fireable, but it’s not clear if everyone was actively engaged in that). It’s worth acknowledging that, and it’s another thing the LW can think about if they get to a place of introspection: they deliberately set up the people they were responsible for and wanted to look out for to lose their jobs.

        1. CityMouse*

          Once those patterns are established they are very hard to break, even if they broke up the team, which would be a lot of work. A clean slate is a good idea. Their actions more than justified it.

        2. Jessie the First (or second)*

          This is a large company with, it seems, actual written policies. That the manager here allowed and sanctioned beer runs doesn’t change that – the direct reports are employees of the company, would have had the employee handbook, and *should* have known that what they were doing was against policy. That said, if the beer runs were the only thing that had been going on, I bet the direct reports would not have been fired.

          But that was not the only thing – there was the snap chat mocking, which the company obviously knew something about because they named snapchat (or rather “inappropriate use of social media”) as part of the reason for firing. And code of conduct issues. The beer runs were not the only reason, and frankly, the beer runs are the only part of the behavior described that any of the employees could hope could be viewed as forgivable because they were blessed by manager. No amount of “but my manager lets us” or “but…culture! From the manager!” makes the mocking of the coworker okay. You don’t get to be a crappy human being to a team member and then lay the blame on the manager for allowing you to be a crappy human being to a team member. The company seems to have done what it needed to do in firing them all.

          1. Jaguar*

            I said explicitly in the post you replied to that I’m not excusing the SnapChat stuff and that it’s automatically fireable. But we don’t know that the entire team was involved in that and it strikes me as a dubious assumption to make that they all were.

            1. Jessie the First (or second)*

              Between your two posts, you say that firing everyone seems drastic, and that though snapchatting is fireable, it’s not clear everyone is involved in that.
              However, we know that the company did not fire the OP right away, – they put her on leave and investigated, and then after that, fired the team. The company didn’t leap to firing as a first response (not even the OP!), and so I don’t see a cause for your concern about a “miscarriage of justice.” WE don’t know exactly who was involved in what, but the company does because the company investigated, and afterwards, fired the team. Of all the people/entities here whose actions I can doubt, the company is lowest on my list.

          2. Jessica*

            Some of the Snapchatters were using their company devices to send these messages, which opens the company itself to liability. Zoinks.

            1. Y*

              Pretty sure it wouldn’t as this use of the devices would be considered them being on frolics of their own.

              Plus, it’s always good to get to use the legal concept of a frolic.

              1. Observer*

                Nope. If these are company owned devices, there is still a real issue of employer responsibility.

        3. TootsNYC*

          Also, I think most of the people on that team actively pressured their manager into bad behavior as well.

          Sure, the manager is the big screw-up. I don’t want to minimize how bad that was, or create a reasoning for our Letter Writer to use to excuse herself.

          But the subordinates on that team played their parts as well.

          It also would not surprise me if those people had been interviewed by HR over this and their reactions and attitudes found wanting, just as the LW’s are. After all, those people are talking w/ the LW about suing the ex-employee.

    2. MuseumChick*

      Not really. The team was 1)Drinking on company time (against policy) 2) Engaged in active bullying of another employee 3) Were not meeting their goals.

      1. One of the Sarahs*

        Plus 4) the relationship between a manager and junior employee, which no one told the LW about

    3. Nerdling*

      I’m genuinely curious. What context would change things for you? And why do you feel that firing an entire department that engaged in bullying an employee in a way that cost the company money/relationships is pretty drastic?

      1. Nerdling*

        Hah, nevermind. I see paul’s comment and your response now. I don’t know that I entirely agree, but I do see where you’re coming from.

    4. Antilles*

      I don’t think it’s drastic. Look at this from an employer’s perspective:
      1.) Employees were drinking alcohol during work hours. In many places, this is a straight up fire-on-sight level of offense. Even in more laid-back offices, it’s usually viewed as a ‘special occasion’ thing – not an every week thing.
      2.) Employees were bullying another employee. This is another very serious offense. Especially given that the other employee was (apparently) critical to the business viability of the entire team.
      3.) Also, the employees showed terrible judgment through and through – both in being part of these items and by not bringing it to management’s attention.
      LW mentioned in one of her comments that the company is a financial services company that’s part of a Fortune 500 company. With that background, I’d be pretty confident in saying that both #1 and #2 are *explicitly* forbidden in the Employee Manual.
      So yeah, this seems completely defensible on the employer’s part.

      1. Jaguar*

        Look at what it gets you when you don’t participate in the manager’s culture, though: what the coworker who resigned had to put up with. It strikes me as a no-win situation: either you get along with your manager and wind up getting fired when that all blows up or you act like a professional and are ostracized and deliberately run out of the department.

        I can understand the company deciding to get rid of the whole problem, but I don’t agree it’s the most ethical way to go about it (and, again, we don’t have a massive amount of context, so I’m talking very hypothetically here).

        1. Jaguar*

          This is not to mention that this has apparently been going on for five years in some form or another. It’s easy to say “it’s probably in the manual,” but every place I’ve ever worked has had its share of things individual managers would do and expect their reports to do that weren’t 100% in compliance with the often broad employee manual. Five years of a manager being allowed to do beer runs every week by their superior is harder to argue with than an employee manual made by God only knows who in a nebulous Fortune 500 company.

          1. Jaguar*

            Also, keep in mind the LW stresses how they’re all young, so it’s likely these are all kids with little to no prior professional experience.

          2. Antilles*

            From the employee’s perspective, you’re probably right: If you’re just joining and this is a thing, you might just chalk it up to different managers – particularly given that LW’s comments seem to indicate that the team members are all fairly young, so they probably don’t have the work experience to realize that no, a weekly beer run is not in any way normal.
            However, the employer absolutely won’t see it that way. This is even more true given the way it turned out – if the beer runs had never caused issues, management might have given them all a minor slap on the wrist…but since the beer runs were a key factor in upending their entire strategy for this department, they certainly aren’t getting any leniency on that.

        2. Desdemona*

          I see your point. At the same time, in a lot of respects, they’ve done these employees a huge favor. They’re being forced to see that there will be situations in their careers where their bad choices can put them in situations that they can’t slither away from. They’re getting to learn while they’re young the extent of possible consequences for behavior that damages their employers’ interests, regardless of their direct manager’s involvement, and that being evil doesn’t necessarily help you get ahead.

          I also work for a Fortune 500 company. We do training every year on our business ethics. The expectation that you’ll decline to participate in intentional violations (like mobbing fellow employees) is made absolutely clear. These employees had a choice, and they knew how to exercise it. We know that because one of them did decline to participate and reported the situation. Even if there had been retaliation for reporting, that’s got to be a better answer to “Why are you looking for another job?” than “I was fired for helping my manager bully out someone she saw as a threat.”

    5. Caro in the UK*

      They could be trying to placate / avoid a lawsuit from ex-employee. Because with all of the additional details in this update, she seems to have endured a particularly horrific case of workplace bullying and may consider the company partly responsible for not stopping it before she was driven to quit.

    6. LS*

      When the team culture is a cross between Lord of the Flies and The Hunger Games I don’t think the team can be saved. Even now the LW *and* her former team are wondering whether they can sue the chased off employee. Obviously nobody has learnt from this and they’re all reinforcing their collective victimhood.

    7. InkyPinky*

      I suspect we aren’t getting the full story about the rest of the team either. It may be that they were all given a chance to explain their actions but instead just doubled-down like the OP. Which is likely given that they’re now all angling together for a lawsuit. And it’s highly likely they weren’t performing well already (hence bringing in the ex-employee) and so this was just the final straw. And especially if they were being given tasks meant for the ex-employee – I’m going to go on a limb and guess that they didn’t do those “stolen” tasks very well.

  85. JoanLynne*

    A couple things…
    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them. Surely there was a valid business reason these assignments were specifically meant for this employee. You should have taken it up with your director first if you really felt she shouldn’t have been given this assignment.

    I had also downgraded her end-of-year evaluation. I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director and client executives. This is incredibly petty and clearly off-base, since the sales staff, your director, AND your clients (!!) all agree that she’s doing a great job.

    My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.
    ….So you and your team resented this employee because…she was an all around excellent worker and was quiet? I’m at a loss here.

    1. Referenceless*

      I’m guessing they disliked her because : a) she was more interested in doing her job than becoming one of the staff; b) she had skills they didn’t-and the higher ups knew this and wanted to use those skills; and c) she’s either not a drinker or, like most people, waits until they’re done with work. I mean, once you get the “not cool” label it’s hard to get rid of it.

      I know C sounds like a stretch, but I’m a life-long non-drinker by choice (can’t stand that alcohol aftertaste) and the amount of coldness and brush-offs I have gotten once co-workers have discovered this…

  86. YarnOwl*

    I work in insurance (for a broker) and I can very safely say that the Letter Writer thinking that the ex-employee’s experience didn’t matter, and that their Master’s degrees made them better employees, is not accurate at all in my experience (besides being a generally crappy and elitist attitude to have). Insurance is complex, and even when you work in a support department (I work in Communications), you have to understand it at least at a basic level to be successful. Additionally, I can’t really think of any position in my company (besides maybe in accounting; I know some of the women who run that department have advanced degrees) where a degree, and not experience, is more valuable. Most of our executive team don’t have advanced degrees, and many of the most successful producers in my company got BA’s in things that are totally unrelated. Being a valuable employee comes from understanding the industry, having good relationships with clients and providers, and being able to use those things to give your clients something other brokers can’t. I understand that Letter Writer’s organization might be different from mine, but I think in general, this is an industry where experience absolutely matters more than advanced degrees.

    It also really bums me out that this person thinks this is how millenials operate in general. I have great relationships with people of all ages in my company, and my team (who is made up almost completely of millenials) don’t do the things that this team of people did. In an industry like this (and in any industry, really) you can benefit a lot from good relationships with people in different positions and with different experience. If you’re basically ignoring people because of their age, you’re going to miss out on a lot.

    1. BethRA*

      Sadly, they’re not the first person to extrapolate “this is how I/my group function” to “this is how my generation” or “my industry” function and “you just don’t understand.”

      1. Marillenbaum*

        One of the best things that happened for Young Marillenbaum’s professional development was my boss quitting in a blaze of glory (during her performance review! She was a legend) because my office panicked and sent me to an industry conference in her stead. I learned SO MUCH about how the field worked, the variations among institutions, and that no, Virginia, your workplace isn’t normal or functional. It made me more effective in my job while I was there (best practices–they’re a thing, y’all!) and helped me realize that I needed to Get Out like I was Daniel Kaluuya and the office was my nice girlfriend played by Alison Williams.

        1. YarnOwl*

          I had the same experience when I moved to my current job from my last one! Although when I started I had a really terrible boss, I realized there was so much going on at my last job that was 1) not normal, and 2) actually really messed up and bad!

  87. kindnessisitsownreward*

    LW, I hope you will consider that most of the people on this website, as well as AAM, don’t have a dog in this fight. Here we are, a bunch of people who don’t know you, the other person, or even each other, and yet we are pretty consistently all saying the same thing–that you were in the wrong here. I hope you will really think about what that means.

    You’re getting really good feedback from people with no axe to grind against anyone. Take advantage of it and really try to hear what people are saying to you. Being a good manager is hard to learn–it’s not a natural skill for most people– and a lot of companies don’t give new managers much help or training. It is not necessarily your fault that you didn’t know how to handle this situation, but it will be on you if you refuse to learn the lessons from this situation.

  88. LCL*

    What happened to you and your team, OP, is something that is all too common in business. You had a tight knit team and got great results. I am guessing (I’d bet next month’s mortgage on it) that management left you alone as long as you got results. Unfortunately, small tight groups, left to their own devices, will always use some tactics that are bullying and unacceptable in the name of group cohesion. Nobody will say anything, probably not even notice, as long as you continue to get results. Somehow this got to management’s attention, and rather than working with you all to straighten you out, fired the group because that is easiest and exposes the company to the least liability.

    The things that you and your group were doing were unacceptable-your management should have stepped in long before and provided all of you more guidance and discipline. You all should have been told to stop the beer runs. You should have been provided with more guidance on how to handle the social media bullying. Your manager should have made it clear to you that you had a great run with a unified team, and now it is time to integrate other members into the team. You said that you gave your team more credibility than anyone else because you knew them better. That is a classic mistake made because of human nature, and your management should have pointed out the problems with this approach.

    “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness. I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant”

    1. Sandra wishes you a heavenly day*

      I’m not sure this is helpful. If the region couldn’t afford to lose more sales, then the tight knit team wasn’t really getting great results. It does sound like there was a length of time when the team and manager were left to their own devices and that some really bad habits were left to flourish. I definitely think, unfortunately, there are many managers who end up in that role with inadequate training.

      I worry if the LW is consoling herself that she had a kick ass team when that isn’t true, it’s one more block to her realigning her management philosophy. I wonder if drunk team members in the afternoon, and people who were comfortable freezing out a slightly older employee were really so great at relating to clients and getting sales.

  89. I Like Stripes*

    This might be a dumb question…what does the letter writer mean by “dotted line” reporting? I haven’t come across that phrase before.

    Thanks!

    1. Disappointed Fellow Millennial*

      It means that on paper the employee that got chased off reported to LW’s manager, but that in day to day operations she reported to the LW.

    2. I'm Not Phyllis*

      From my experience it means that you have an “official” boss and an “unofficial boss.” For instance, I report directly to the CEO who assigns me tasks, is responsible for my performance reviews, and whose approval I seek before doing anything major or taking time off, that kind of thing. I also have a dotted line report to the Vice-CEO who assigns me tasks and who I meet with regularly, but who isn’t responsible for me otherwise.

    3. Callalily*

      Try to visualize the chain of command with lines.

      Solid lines connect those that directly report to others. These are essentially the official channels.

      Then imagine what happens when a reporter goes over their direct report’s head or just starts reporting to someone under the table. You’d have a dotted line connecting them.

      1. LS*

        This makes it sound devious. In my experience this is a formal and documented reporting line.

      2. Danielle*

        No. Dotted line is a formal reporting structure whereby the employees is formally managed and on the team of one manager, but has some responsibilities to another party. What you’re talking about is someone being sneaky.

    4. LS*

      In my experience it means that although LW was the employee’s line manager, the employee also had a direct (working) relationship with the director. This usually means that the employee is in a more strategic role, is working on a special project or is being fast tracked into a more senior position.

      Perhaps this accounts for some of the jealousy coming through from the LW.

    5. SarahKay*

      For my company it’s two managers with slightly different types of control.
      I’m in finance so my actual manager is also finance, but on another site. He’ll do my yearly appraisal and has final say over how my job is performed, what tasks I take on, but no real input to how I structure my day -although that would probably change if I stopped performing as required. I physically saw him in person more than a year ago, but we do have regular weekly Skype meetings.
      My dotted line manager is the site leader for my site. He can choose to give input to my appraisal, but doesn’t write or conduct it. However, he’s far more likely to ask me to complete a specific task in a specific time-line to meet our site’s needs, and he’s the one who I’d let know if I were running late one morning. (Lateness isn’t inherently bad as we have reasonable flexibility in starting times, but we’re not that big a team so he’d see I wasn’t in at my usual time and calling him means he knows I’m just late, as opposed to under a bus somewhere!)

  90. SideshowStarlet*

    I am a long time lurker but rare commenter. I will do my best to follow the commenting rules about being kind and constructive. I have read the original letter and all the comments, and I am pleasantly surprised to receive an update.

    Let me just say that I have survived bullying workplaces and dysfunctional environments, and I’ve moved on to a much better-though not entirely perfect; nowhere could be perfect- one, and I am valued for my caring and work ethic (I’m a Registered Nurse). I get along great with my coworkers and charge nurse. With my past jobs, though… The description of LW’s workplace, coming from LW herself, made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

    Having pulled myself out of workplace bullying, I am very sensitive to signs of a toxic workplace. Manager who would rather be friends than manage? Check. Blatant favoritism? Check. “Friends Only” social activities which have nothing to do with work while on the clock, leaving the unfavored few with the actual work? Double check.

    I have seen from reading the comments on the original letter and even other letters on this site that other readers have these sorts of toxic environments in their work histories. It seems to be a common problem! I think the LW needs to consider the idea that their own boss, who advocated for the hiring and promotion of, Superstar Employee, may have had a manager or two like you in his or her past. So, in addition to going against your boss’s directive to assign the more challenging work to the superstar employee, you were probably making your manager’s hackles go up every time you defended handing a choice assignment over to your favorites, reminding them of the Bad Manager of Christmas Past. You yourself espoused the importance of not just getting along with, but being friends with, your manager. I guarantee that, if you were acting like a jerky manager that I have no doubt your (seemingly more experienced) supervisor had at some point in their past, you were not acting like you would be good friends with your own boss.

    I bring this up not to pile on, but to discuss the idea that LW had that employees should be friends with coworkers and bosses. It is important to find someone who gets on with the team, not to have a playmate the boss’s age to socialize with, but to have an employee who considers the feelings of others. LW, your boss did not begin their career as your boss. He or she presumably had to work their way up from something. I’m sure they knew the score.

    Tried to make this coherent and not like insane troll logic. Hope I succeeded.

  91. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    I feel sorry for you, LW. I truly do. That your mindset is so warped that you cannot see what’s wrong here. You are so blinded by your need to be well liked and cool that you can’t see how cruelly you treated another person. I honestly hope you never are on the receiving end of this kind of behavior. Nobody deserves that.

    1. RB*

      I also hope that you are never in management again and perhaps find an altogether different career path to pursue. Maybe you have other interests you’ve been keeping on the back burner? It’s like you don’t get the whole idea of management. Surely you must have had management classes in college, since you bragged about your Master’s degree?. Even a Bachelor’s in business would have required a management class or two.

    2. patricia*

      I agree with you, Wannabe Disney Princess. It’s a very sad letter to me in many respects. No one likes to believe themselves unkind, but the whole letter has cruelty running through it. It’s not just immature and unprofessional- it’s really mean spirited and unkind. I don’t say that to pile on, but more I am shocked and saddened by the perspective on display here. There are definitely business reasons the letter writer’s firing was justified…but there were human reasons too. The inability to see the business reasons I could maybe chalk up to age or inexperience, but the inability to appreciate how mean she’d been to a coworker- that’s more troubling stuff. I would echo the others above who encourage at least some real reflection on Alison’s advice and these comments (if not counseling also). I can’t add much else that hasn’t already been said, but I do agree with all of it.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        Yeah the LW said something about not firing her long ago because she’s “not that mean” (paraphrased). That might have been kinder, actually.

        1. Desdemona*

          LW is a pretty unreliable witness, though. She originally said that she had been sorry to lose the ex-employee. I think the likely reason was she knew her bosses wouldn’t have let her. Can you imagine the conversation with her director if she’d fired the employee? Hey, Boss, just wanted to let you know that I let Rockstar go today. Boss: Why? LW: Well you know, Boss, this is an at will state. I didn’t have to have a reason for it.

          What I don’t understand is what LW expected the outcome of driving out the rockstar. Did she imagine they’d just give up the business they’re hired Rockstar to develop?

  92. oranges & lemons*

    This letter writer seems pretty determined to manage her employees as if they were her friend group, and generally blurring the boundaries between friendship and management. I get the sense she was unwilling to do anything to make waves on the team, so she could remain on good terms with everyone. I think the bigger issue, though, is her unwillingness to listen to criticism from anyone–not just Alison and the commenters here, but the higher-ups at her (former) workplace as well.

  93. A Teacher*

    It sounds like there was a lot of mobbing going on toward the former employee and by isolating her the conditions became unbearable. An effective manager will recognize when this happens and work to fix it. An ineffective manager will justify their ineffectiveness. I hope the OP can see what’re her deficiencies are and learn. I’m skeptical but maybe this will be a wake up call.

  94. GiantPanda*

    LW, the lesson you are supposed to learn here is “Job Priorities 101.”

    Your job is (was) to make your superiors happy. Period. Anything else is a secondary consideration. The most important thing is to make your superiors happy or at least satisfied with your performance.

    This usually includes, but is not limited to:
    – making money for the company
    – winning and retaining clients
    – finishing assigned projects to required standards and on time
    – getting along with your coworkers on a professional level, even the ones you don’t particularly like on a personal level
    – working efficiently with all your coworkers, even the ones you wouldn’t have hired yourself
    – using your managees to the best of their abilities so that they can in turn making their and your superiors happy
    – not breaking the law and not causing legal risks
    – following company policies, even if they don’t make sense
    – following directions, even if you don’t agree
    – … details may vary …

    From the way you describe it, you broke most of these consistently; you describe your own behaviour as “insubordinate”.

    An employee who makes their superiors consistently unhappy will (usually) lose, i.e. get warned, reassigned, demoted, put on a PIP, fired. That’s what happened to you and what will happen again unless you rethink your approach for the next job.

    (There are situations where “doing the right thing” or “being a decent human being” takes priority, e.g. whistleblowing. This was not the case for this LW and would be Lesson 201.)

    1. MuseumChick*

      I agree I would add Not list: Do not do anything that could lead to legal action against your company, Do not treat your direct reports as friends instead of direct reports, Do no disregard directions unless they are are illegal, unethical, or place you in harm’s way.

  95. Fabulous*

    I’m gonna break it down line by line for the OP… apologies if this was already done:

    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. <<You may know your team better, but you were directly undermining your superior, who has final say over things.

    Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me. I had also downgraded her end-of-year evaluation. <<Instance #1 of retaliation – this is what Alison says is illegal

    I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director and client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me. I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing. <<Instance #2 of illegal retaliation

    My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness. <<Instance #3 of illegal retaliation

    I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance. <<Sometimes experience in the field is MUCH better to have than a Masters… Instance #4 of illegal retaliation.

    HR and my regional vice president stated she had been hired to fill a role for a growing segment of our business and should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team. <<Again, but you were directly undermining your superiors, who have final say over things.

    By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name. <<This confirms that she was a valuable employee to retain, as your superiors saw when they hired her. And you were literally trying to drive her out by “un-managing”/retaliating against her multiple times.

    During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five. <<Yet another instance of you directly undermining your superiors. So what if she gets promoted higher than you? She’s at a different point in her career and was semi-reporting to the director already. A good manager always supports your team member’s growth.

    HR told me the brewery beer runs were against company policy and I should have stopped the SnapChats, especially those who had it on their company phones. I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying? I also don’t know how/if I should have monitored this with my team. <<See the other comments on how this is bullying… it’s creating a hostile workplace. An AAM example I can think of is the little person who had pictures taken of her by an employee and posted to Facebook.

    My entire team was fired. The reasons for the firings included alcohol at work, even though we were physically at the brewery, inappropriate social media behavior, and not meeting the code of conduct. <<Alcohol at work means that you and/or your team were coming back to work intoxicated. It’s illegal to drink on the job unless it explicitly states in the handbook that it’s ok. Plus, let’s not get into the potential for drinking and driving while on the clock!

    1. JanetInSC*

      This is an excellent break-down…thanks for taking the time to write this! I truly hope the OP will read your comment again and again.

    2. Snark*

      “<<Instance #3 of illegal retaliation"

      Arguably, this is just garden-variety favoritism, not illegal retaliation.

    3. The IT Manager*

      This comment has a lot wrong.

      It’s illegal to drink on the job unless it explicitly states in the handbook that it’s ok.

      This is not true. The majority of companies do not allow it, but it’s not against the law.

      Creating a “hostile work environment” is a very specific legal term which probably does not apply in this case because the discrimination must be on the basis of a small number of factors. Being threatened by the new up and comer isn’t one of them. And the fired employee was not over 40 so no age discrimination.

      “Workplace retaliation” is also a specific legal term. It’s not even clear what you think the LW was retaliating for. It sounds a lot like bullying which is legal but you can definitely be fired for.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I would have to agree with you. I’m not sure that any of the items that Fabulous listed as illegal retaliation were actually retaliation. Bad management, definitely, but it’s not retaliation.

      2. Fabulous*

        I only say this because a prior job I had held “happy hours” during working hours. I don’t know if there was any mention of them in the employee handbook (I was a temp, so I didn’t get copies of a lot of the official documents) but employee-sponsored drinking was common during the day there.

      3. Fabulous*

        Plus with regards to the retaliation – I call it retaliation instead of run-of-the-mill bullying because her actions specifically stemmed from jealousy (or whatever) and she was taking it out on the employee by 1) messing with her evaluation, 2) freezing her out, and 3) treating her with disdain when she asked for assistance. Also nonegiven’s point, there should have been a #4 – downgrading her title from consultant to associate.

    4. nonegiven*

      “should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate” <==Also retaliation?

  96. V2*

    LW, since I think you’re having trouble understanding how wrong your actions were (and they were wrong, unethical, immoral, and possibly illegal), it might be best to focus on conforming to professional expectations. Other people, namely senior management, will expect you to manage in a certain way. The things you did are very contrary to expectations at most well-functioning companies. Even if you think you were right, you have to recognize the reality that others will see it as wrong. At this point, your feelings notwithstanding, you really have two choices: 1) accept and act on the feedback that you’re getting, 2) or accept that your management career will be stunted as a result of your lack of willingness to do that. I might also suggest counseling, since you seem to have difficulties taking ownership of your problems and tend to put all the blame on others.

    1. Queen of the File*

      I totally agree. I think even if LW is not ready to accept that she’s wrong, she’s going to have to accept that other people see her approach as wrong if she ever hopes to work with people effectively.

      Someone once talked to me about the “scarcity” vs. “abundance” views of the world and I wonder if doing a little reading around that might help the LW. Feeling a bit threatened by a new employee who is potentially going to supplant you is normal; taking the measures LW did to make sure that person can’t succeed–at the expense of your company, your team, and eventually your own job is so tragic to me. I think about the opportunity the LW had to let that person be an asset to make her team and herself look good–everyone could have come out of that situation more successful. What would the cost of that have been? This is the question I would be asking myself (and my therapist). What did I truly stand to lose by her success?

      I think hundreds of internet comments telling you you’re wrong are probably just going to trigger more defensiveness, in the short term. I know I wouldn’t want to read this kind of reaction to something I had done–even if deep down I knew parts of it were kind of bad. I really hope the openness to change part follows someday soon.

  97. Discordia Angel Jones*

    I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I want to add my 2 cents.

    My jaw progressively dropped reading this update and the subsequent email exchange – glad I am alone in the office right now (it’s my penultimate day at this firm and I need to finish my handover notes, so I’m staying late).

    I’m… disappointed in this update, LW. She has clearly not digested what everyone was saying in the original post, nor what her company was telling her. LW, seriously, if you do not modify your behaviour, you will get fired again. If you do not even understand why what you were doing is wrong, or bad management, I seriously think you will tank your career, if you haven’t already. Please listen to Alison, to the commenters here.

    Having said that, the company 100% did the right thing by firing LW and the whole team. Good on them, if the ex colleague brought clients who subsequently left with her, and who presumably may have heard the terrible treatment she suffered, then the company’s reputation is permanently damaged. This is the only acceptable response.

    Finally, LW, I am a lawyer. My two bosses at my current firm did not go to university. They are lawyers (admittedly, they’d have had to go to university if they were younger than they are, things were different), and they are 100% just as good, if not better, than their university educated colleagues. They are very intelligent. So they didn’t go to university, they don’t have a Masters degree (or even a degree) – so what? It’s a piece of paper (and usually, a lot of debt). Sure, you work hard for it, but it’s not a measure of your intelligence.

  98. Disappointed Fellow Millennial*

    OP, in your initial letter you mention that you were managing a “team of professional millennials” and in the comments you note that you’re 28, the same age I am. As a fellow millennial, I am incredibly disappointed that you seem to have bought into all those anti-millennial articles and seem to view them as a how-to guide on appropriate behavior. The sort of behavior exhibited by you and your team would not be appropriate if exhibited by a group of teenagers working in the mall, let alone from a team in a Fortune 500 company. It is really short-sighted to assume that someone older than you wouldn’t fit in just because of their age and that you would have nothing to learn from them. You seem to have a very immature attitude that you know better than everyone else around you, including your supervisor, and that age and experience don’t matter. This isn’t high school; someone’s value on your team shouldn’t be based on their popularity. You won’t go very far if you continue to be dismissive of others’ hard-earned expertise.

    Also, your comment about Master’s degrees is incredibly classist and shows a lack of understanding of requirements to function in a working environment. Yes, our entire generation has been fed a lie that we need to get a Master’s to be successful, but that has only resulted in increasing amounts of burdensome student loan debt that not everyone has the interest or ability to take on. The increasing amount of entry level jobs that require Master’s degrees is a result of the increasing number of people who have them and companies’ awareness that they can hire people with advances degrees for a fraction of what they used to be able to – not because those positions actually require a Master’s degree to be successful. It wasn’t that way for generations previous to us and in many cases it’s much smarter to get more work experience than it is to get a second degree. For example, if you had more work experience instead of a Master’s, you may have realized that your behavior was completely inappropriate on every level before you got fired.

    You say that you don’t understand what lesson you are supposed to learn from this, but based on the tone of your response I think you probably do and that you just don’t want to admit it to yourself. You were incredibly insubordinate (which you admit), refused to let the person you chased off do her job, lost money and clients for your business, and created a team environment that promoted unprofessional behavior, all of which are fireable offenses. I really hope that you admit to yourself how wrong you were and learn from your mistakes before you move on to your next position, because if you don’t I doubt you will last long their either.

    And as a side note, the employee you chased off was probably a millennial too, given that the oldest members of our generation will soon turn 40. Millennial is not short-hand for youth.

    1. Fronzel Neekburm*

      To add to the Master’s thing: I have a Master’s Degree. I have two, actually. I’ll tell you for a fact that I’m not any smarter than anyone else. I know more about one very specific field. I know plenty of people who got their Master’s by the skin of their teeth.

    2. WittyOne*

      “For example, if you had more work experience instead of a Master’s, you may have realized that your behavior was completely inappropriate on every level before you got fired.”

      +1000 Thank you for saying this. As someone who does not have a degree but does have 20 years of experience I had a visceral reaction to the LW’s judgemental attitude (my manager is the same way) and couldn’t agree with this more.

    3. Manderley*

      +1 “For example, if you had more work experience instead of a Master’s, you may have realized that your behavior was completely inappropriate on every level before you got fired.”

  99. CMDRBNA*

    I just…wow.

    First of all, ‘un-managing’ is not a thing. Deliberately allowing (and even encouraging!) your team to mistreat a coworker in the hopes that they will leave is not managing, or un-managing – it’s really, really cruel. This isn’t a question of fit. I don’t want to pile on here, but you don’t seem to realize that you deliberately created a bullying, ostracizing environment, and as a manager that’s pretty antithetical to everything that a good manager should be doing.

    The objections to this employee are frankly bizarre – that she’s quiet? But also that she’s good at presentations with connecting with clients? But that her asking for help wasn’t taken seriously because her being good at her job was somehow showing off? And that your insubordination (your word!) was acceptable because you viewed her as somehow being undeserving of being on the team, despite being actually good at her job?

    And that all of this was because you were afraid she would end up in a more senior role despite you having been there longer? And her experience was “irrelevant” because you decided it was?

    I’m glad you wrote in to AAM and I hope you’ll really look at the comments and Alison’s answers with an open mind. I don’t think you should be managing anyone, frankly. That you seem committed to defending what you did to this poor employee is really mind-boggling. You weren’t ‘dedicated to your work,’ LW, you were dedicated to bullying an employee who was actually good at her job into quitting.

    (I also have no idea how you are equating the “work should be fun!” with “so let’s bully a teammate until they quit!”

    LW, you weren’t the scapegoat. You were fired because you damaged your company through your behavior. And I would strongly urge you to drop taking any ‘legal action’ against the employee because it’s ridiculous. You have zero standing.

    I really hope you spend a lot of time taking a hard look at your actions before you consider applying for another management job. Or reconsider whether managing anyone is the right choice for you.

  100. Princess Carolyn*

    Another thought: Sometimes, when I realize I’ve screwed up really bad, I’ll be defensive about it to others but brutally harsh on myself internally. It’s a misguided attempt at protecting my own self-esteem because I tend to interpret criticism of my behavior as criticism of my character and worth as a human. And this OP seems to have at least some self-awareness, despite doubling down on behaviors we all agree were unwise at best. Maybe, just maybe she’s learned more from this experience than what we’re seeing.

    I have no idea if that’s what’s going on here, but believing it may help me sleep at night.

    1. Justin*

      Yes, I wonder about that too. My biggest career screw up, I am sure I made it seem like I did nothing wrong to others but I knew I had made a mistake, and I still feel bad about it now.

      I want to tell myself she wouldn’t have written in without the capacity for some sort of soul-searching, but I’ve been wrong before!

  101. The Mighty Thor*

    Wow. Just wow. My jaw hit the floor, and then I face palmed.

    This hits sorta close to home as I’m the same age as OP, and management may be in my future. I’m marking this down as an example of the manager I definitely don’t want to be.

  102. Katie Fay*

    This sort of sums it up:
    “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.

    1. Ashley*

      This one really bothers me. Seniority should not dictate promotions. Age should not dictate promotions. Sometimes your boss may have less work experience or be younger, but hopefully they got there because of their skills and not time at a company or time on earth.

    2. Solidad*

      You know, she should have thought:

      If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years AND may have been able to help me from that position.

      Instead of realizing the Superstar was a rising star who could be an ally, her jealousy kicked in.

      Let me give you quick true story: Many years ago, early in my career, I was kind to a woman who was re-entering the workforce after being a SAHM. She only had a high school degree. I didn’t do anything exceptional, I just treated her like a human being of equal worth. A few years ago, before I became a lawyer, I ran into her at an event. She had gotten a degree and was now in a deciding role in a company that my company wanted to turn into an ongoing client. Guess who got that contract? Guess what my bosses thought?

      Just b/c someone has less seniority, less education, less intelligence does not make them lesser than you. I know a lot of high-level managers who make decisions about who to promote based on how those people treat the janitor. If you have Bob who is equally as good as Sally but is rude the the receptionist, Sally is getting the opportunity to move up.

      People skills and morality matter as much as intelligence. Particularly in an age of Twitter.

      I think you really need to take a hard look at why you think this woman was a less worthy human than you are, because it’s clear to me you think yourself superior.

  103. Mary Dempster*

    Whoah.

    I feel like this came down to “I didn’t like her, therefore I did everything I could to ensure she was treated poorly and could not succeed, even though every other constituency seemed to love her, but I know I was the one in the right.”

    Whoah. LW, you have also done a horrible disservice to the team you were managing.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This shows a lack of understanding of how workplaces operate.

      OP, the fact that you disliked her is irrelevant. You are not being paid to like people, you are being paid to manage people.

  104. Lehigh*

    Wait, so your years getting a master’s degree count, but her years of experience don’t, but your five years with the company should? That’s some justification gymnastics. To my mind, you felt threatened by this woman’s skills and her career path, and you came up with reasons it was okay to be ruled by that jealousy.

    It’s easy to get sucked in my strong emotions like that. But you get to choose, in most cases, what is most important to you: indulging your feelings, or succeeding in a professional capacity.

    Maybe in the future you’ll consider a different choice.

  105. Kiki*

    >she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)

    Comments like this really grind my gears. I heard a great quote recently– “Imagine all of the talent that’s trapped in poverty.” This is not necessarily to say that ex-employee came from an impoverished background, but illustrates the fact that there are so many smart, capable, dedicated people who would love to get a masters degree (or hell, even a bachelors!) but can’t due to systematic and generational roadblocks outside of their control. So the idea that more education = better person bothers me on many levels.

    2. JanetInSC*

      Love this and will be borrowing that quote: “Imagine all of the talent that’s trapped in poverty.”

      1. Solidad*

        My husband always says that diversity is important b/c you get the best results. He’s also a big fan of helping people who come from less privileged backgrounds figure out how to rise up as far as possible.

        It’s not just trapped in poverty that’s an issue, it’s what happens when you get out and you aren’t from the same culture as those in power at your company.

        There’s a lot of classism in America. It intersects with sexism, racism, etc. But even among white men, not knowing how to use your fork b/c you were raised poor on a farm will hurt you.

        Getting the people out of poverty isn’t enough. We have to change our mindset about the worth and value of human beings.

        That’s what bugs me so much about OP. It’s the dripping condescending tone. She thinks she’s better and there deserves a spot even though all the facts have demonstrated the other woman deserved it more.

        1. Kiki*

          >Getting the people out of poverty isn’t enough. We have to change our mindset about the worth and value of human beings.

          This is an amazing point, thank you Solidad. And it’s very true. I grew up in an impoverished household and my mother worked in blue collar jobs her whole life. When I started my first post-college job in a traditional white collar environment, my ignorance of social norms was very apparent. It seemed to come naturally to my colleagues but that behavior had never been modeled for me and I felt like a fish out of water. Thankfully I had a very patient and understanding boss (my appreciation for her grows every year) and this blog to help me out, but not everyone has that support or resources!

    3. Mike C.*

      Not to mention that there are bachelor programs out there that are more difficult than many advanced degree programs, or that different programs require different sorts of skills and circumstances to complete.

      1. Isobel*

        All degrees are not the same… I “only” have a bachelor’s degree. It’s in medicine, because that’s an undergraduate degree in the UK (MBChB). I wouldn’t be too impressed if OP was snotty about my lack of a master’s. And the really steep learning curve was after I graduated, just as it is with numerous other career paths.

    4. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Yes, this is such a cruel way of thinking, as is the reality. We’d be so far advanced as a species if everyone had access to opportunities. If anything, the OP should be impressed the ex-employee did so much with ‘just’ a bachelor’s!

    5. Old Admin*

      Mr Old Admin is one of those cases of an intelligent gut never having a shot at a real education. We are fixing that now, and *surprise surprise* he’s doing well at it!

  106. MissGirl*

    Someone on the original comment thread made the comment that can’t it be a good thing to hire like-minded individuals. Why should diversity be a goal. This is why.

    When you surround yourself with a team who thinks and acts like you and push people out who don’t, you risk losing perspective. This manager didn’t set out to wreak havoc on their company and its bottom line. She couldn’t see the forest for the trees because al the trees were identical.

    1. Solidad*

      This is precisely why the original release from Siri could tell you where to find strip clubs but not rape crisis centers.

      Or why Budweiser was so tone deaf when it put out the “Up for Anything” ad campaign.

  107. KC*

    Hopefully this won’t come off wrong. Based on Letter Writer’s communication style and grammar, I don’t think they’re originally from North America (possibly India). I think there are some cultural issues at play: special status derived from education, doing everything possible to look good to upper management, denial/blame, paying your dues, etc.

    I suspect that the Letter Writer was hired straight out of their MBA program, got along well with their colleagues, was promoted to management, and continued to see work as a social event rather than business. This just further proves that an MBA does not automatically mean good management skills.

    A bit of advice for the Letter Writer: as manager, you’re the captain of a ship. When shit hits the fan, you are the one to blame. Alternatively, when your team looks good, you look good.

    Management, along with HR, is about making employees more competitive, not more comfortable. I pity the next team you manage, if you ever get that opportunity again.

      1. Christian Troy*

        FWIW, I didn’t think the LW was from North America either and kind of had a similar opinion as KC.

    2. Indian*

      But Indians are not really into brewery runs and bro-cultures.

      Can we please not get racist here?

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Yeah; it’s hard to draw this conclusion without relying on pretty problematic racial stereotypes.

        1. Observer*

          I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one who saw that. Although I’m not sure that it’s exactly racial stereotypes as much as generalized xenophobia.

          Not that it makes a difference – the post relies on some really problematic assumptions about “culture” which have zero basis in fact, while ignoring some stuff that really sounds fairly US specific. (@Creative Anonymity mentions “at will state”, but other things also.)

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Yes, I’d also really like to know what about style / grammar makes you think non-North American. I could totally see that whole thing on Gossip Girls, word for word.

    4. Not American either*

      Allison, I am not sure if comments like ” I don’t think they’re originally from North America (possibly India). I think there are some cultural issues at play” should be approved and seen here. With all the due respect,, this does make any Indian – or non-North American per se – look bad and a lower class.

    5. Creative Anonymity*

      LW refers to being in an “at will state” which I’ve only heard in reference to the US.

  108. Anonmama*

    I want to answer a question you posed near the end of your update: “My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.”
    No, no you cannot. While you might find someone who could try to argue you and your friends/former employees have a claim, I don’t believe anyone would find it valid. I hope you can reflect on all of today’s comments and the ones from the previous post: your own actions and the actions of the bullying SnapChatters and others were your own undoing.

    Second, I don’t want to speak for the rest of the commenters, but it’s going to be really hard for me (and possibly others) to give you credit for your “positive” actions because of your attitude about them. Not firing someone even though you could have is not something to applaud, especially given that you wanted to “un-manage” her. Credit comes when you recognize an employee’s worth, despite any negative feelings you have, and doing what’s right for them and the company. Giving opportunities for development is a good manager thing to do–*if you do it fairly*, but you were actively taking away ex-employee’s to favor your friends.

    Finally, as for lessons you should be taking away: Humility–even though you are a manager of a team, you still report to someone else (even CEOs have to be mindful of shareholders and do things they may not like if they’re in the company’s best interest). Servant leadership–this means you can lead by being at service to your employees–*all* of them, even the ones you don’t like as a friend. And then your actions will inspire the team to do the service that will help your team build and grow.

    I feel like you’re defending yourself and seeking some validation because of the dramatic, tumultuous end of your team and the upheaval in your life that comes with a firing. But I think the only thing will make you better (and not just feel better) is some serious self-reflection, proactive steps to learn better management, honest admittance that what you all did was not good business, and then new experiences in which you demonstrate you’ve “learned your lesson” so to speak. Only those alone will be any help in salvaging your and your friends’ careers.

    1. Artemesia*

      If anyone should want to sue here it ought to be the team he got fired; but for the mismanagement by the OP they would all still have jobs.

      1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I mean, even they have no claim—they were all fired for cause (!). The idea that any of them have any claim against their former employer or the ex-employee is really out there. Within the realm of bizarre legal ideas I’ve seen people propose, but still way out on the fringe.

  109. I'm Not Phyllis*

    Whoa. There are so many ways to address this but the major one is that someone leaving a company isn’t just a case of someone’s feelings getting hurt and leaving the company. Changing jobs is a major life decision and not one that people normally take lightly (and the older you get, the less lightly you take these decisions). Her leaving because she was so unhappy was a big thing, and management obviously took her complaints seriously enough to not just terminate you, but terminate your whole team – to me this says that her complaints had merit and you should take them seriously.

    You’re saying that you didn’t want her in the first place so you decided to make her life miserable so she’d leave, then in the same breath saying that you didn’t do anything wrong. To be clear, making someone’s life miserable until they leave is wrong. If she wasn’t doing her job it’s your job to take appropriate action, and this wasn’t appropriate (and also it looks like she was trying to do her job?). As a manager you may be asked to manage people you don’t like, whose positions you may not agree are necessary (but that the higher-ups have decided ARE necessary) and people who have different personalities, stations in life, etc. then you do but that doesn’t mean you get to bully them into leaving. And I’m sorry but that’s exactly what you and your team did. I would recommend really examining your management style. Put yourself in her shoes – what would you have done if a manager had treated you the way you treated her? I bet “HR” will be somewhere in your answer.

    Also, if your team were drinking at a brewery on company time I believe (?) it is still classified as drinking at work if they were being paid for that time. I could be wrong but I think this is a fine line that I wouldn’t want to even risk crossing.

  110. MassMatt*

    I hope OP can learn from this experience, sounds like it may take some time/distance but hopefully it will happen.

    I think this letter highlights the downside to having a too-close or too friendly relationship with coworkers, especially subordinates. It’s natural to want to like the people you work with but it’s easy to let it get out of whack and play favorites, and something that might be clearly dysfunctional can become “normal”. Many posters have mentioned how dreadful “we’re like a family!” Can turn out to be in a work environment.

    I’ve managed to have productive working relationships with many people I didn’t like. Either find something to like about them, or do you very best to put your personal feelings aside to get work accomplished.

  111. Fire*

    I’m boggling a lot at the arrogance displayed, but one thing that’s getting me is how it feels like she was essentially getting bullied because everyone was jealous that she was good at her job. Like… okay, sure, some people think that quiet people are automatically bad at interacting with people (which is silly), but doing your job well isn’t being a show-off. And I guess going above and beyond all the time for a manager that clearly does not value you can be seen as strange (I definitely wouldn’t do that), but maybe she thought she needed to prove herself, since you made it very clear you thought she was bad at her job.

    Even the information on that is contradictory: you say she didn’t deserve the praise she got from sales and clients, but “her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.” Showing off requires being excellent in the first place. You can’t show off sub par work. And even then, if you have actual concerns about someone’s work that’s getting praise elsewhere in the company, especially further up the ladder, that’s a concern that should be brought up. Maybe you don’t have the whole picture and as such your expectations need to be re calibrated. A lot of this sort of stuff isn’t black and white, inherently good or bad work, but depends upon the wants and needs of the company: something that may be good for one situation may be bad for another.

  112. Minister of Snark*

    OK, you don’t want to know what lessons you were supposed to learn? Here, I made a list.

    -Your employees are not your friends. They’re your employees. When you put priority on friendships over what’s best for your office/business, it will damage your credibility and work dynamic.

    -When you find fault with someone no matter what they do (“I don’t like it when she’s quiet. I don’t like it when she’s ‘showing off.’ I don’t like it when she’s just sitting there.”), that means you’re the problem, not the other person.

    – Sometimes innovation isn’t innovation (“un-managing”), sometimes, it’s just finding a fancy name for doing something that’s a really bad idea.

    – A good manager knows that team members coordinating in an effort to mock one team member is bad for team morale and addresses it immediately. How is that team member supposed to function in her role on the team if her coworkers are snickering and mocking her behind her back?

    -When your direction assigns a specific task, you don’t get to ignore the directive because “you know better.” That is the definition of insubordination.

    -Just because don’t like someone doesn’t mean you get to redefine their job description or their role in your team.

    – If your director gives someone on your team a specific role, you don’t get to decide that they have to earn that role.

    -When you start to lose clients and sales, you stop, look at the way you’re managing and figure out what you’re doing wrong. Particularly if what you’re doing is the opposite of what your superiors asked you to do.

    -No, you don’t get credit for looking out for your coworkers, when it was that “looking out” that got you fired. Also, it got your whole team fired, so clearly, your “looking out” wasn’t very effective.

    -You plotted to create a work environment so toxic that an employee would leave. That is not the mark of an effective manager.

    Your lack of introspection is pretty disturbing. You don’t want to hear criticism. You don’t want to consider whether you made the wrong choices. Instead of examining your behavior, you’re still looking to find a way to assign to blame to ex-employee. I really think you have some growing up to do. Please considering gaining some more experience before trying for another managerial role.

    1. TootsNYC*

      “When you put priority on friendships over what’s best for your office/business, it will damage your credibility and work dynamic.”
      “-No, you don’t get credit for looking out for your coworkers, when it was that “looking out” that got you fired. Also, it got your whole team fired, so clearly, your “looking out” wasn’t very effective.”

      I want to highlight this “looking out for the people who work for you.”

      This is a hard part of being a manager, especially a manager who directly manages the workers with their hands on the work.

      We do need to look out for our team. And they’re the people we see the most.

      But always, always–what’s good for the business, and what’s demanded by the people over us, comes before our team members.

      So when the director tells you to assign work to someone skilled, you don’t siphon that work off to the rookie in order to let them learn.
      Sure, you’re supposed to try to help the rookie learn and develop–but never, ever at the expense of the business. You come up with some -other- way (like, having the rookie shadow the pro; asking the pro to carve out some coaching time, or identify some tasks that the rookie -can- assist with).

      Of course, our OP and her team had decided to ostracize this person, and had decided that she had no expertise, so…

      But for the future: You cannot put your team members before the company, or before your boss. You have to advocate for them AFTER you meet those bigger goals.

      it’s hard, it really is

  113. Justin*

    “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness. I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.” ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    But, with more eloquence, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    Okay but seriously this time: The most charitable thing I can say is you fell into a cliquey rabbit hole and either deliberately placed blinders on yourself like a horse racing towards a very bad finish line, or just got sucked into quicksand and are probably in a very bad place right now. Not an excuse for any of it, but it could be a reason.

    I do hope you can make some needed changes. We have all made mistakes in our careers (though, this.. was… a lot of them at once, and repeatedly). You have said the words that are not denial (“I continued being insubordinate” – well, that’ll get you fired) but haven’t managed to process it.

    Coming back from this is going to be tough. I can see despair in the final questions you asked to Allison, and despite what you did, you didn’t commit murder or whatever, so I hope you can find a way to get to a better place.

    Probably don’t manage anyone for a good long while though. And unless your Masters is, like, an MS in “Management of employees,” I’d stop harping on that.

  114. V2*

    Also, if you wrote to AAM thinking that she’d back you just because you had the title of manager, then you really don’t understand AAM (or good management, which requires a good dose of critical self-evaluation).

  115. Jimulacrum*

    Lessons you should learn:

    1. Your workplace isn’t a fraternity/sorority house, not even if you’re the manager and that’s how you want it to be. That means no “un-managing” employees you don’t like, bullying people, drinking on the job, and so many of the other things that have been listed on AAM as inappropriate work behavior. You have to follow company rules and professional standards. You have to deal with people you don’t necessarily like and help them perform as part of your team. You have to operate within a framework whether you like it or not. That’s life.

    2. Your staff is not your circle of friends. You can get along with your employees, and occasional after-work social activities can be healthy, but you’re not supposed to be heading up a clique. Frankly, what you describe in your posts sounds like a dynamic that tends to develop among “cool kids” in high school. That kind of thing really rubs people the wrong way in the adult world. I’m not surprised at all that your whole team got canned. I would fire you all too. The environment you created was toxic and jeopardized their whole operation.

    3. Your piece of paper from a university doesn’t make you smarter or more ambitious than anyone else, and it certainly doesn’t make you a better manager or your friends better employees. Case in point: everything that has happened here. Go ahead, get a doctorate and see if it makes it any more acceptable to bully someone out of her job or go out drinking with your friends/employees while you’re all on the clock. (And your ego swelling about this topic is beyond off-putting.)

    4. LISTEN TO PEOPLE. Your responses have shown a degree of stubbornness that’s kinda maddening. You’re talking to a legion of people with collective centuries of experience in a wide variety of roles and fields. Right now, you have about five years of experience, and it’s experience mismanaging a team of friends and getting everyone fired. It’s a huge mistake you need to learn from. Your actions are what caused this—not the employee you didn’t like, not HR, not any of that. Your actions. Your attitude. This has been beaten to death in the comments already. Read them and really take what they’re saying to heart. If you refuse to learn from this, prepare yourself for a lifetime of failures of this sort.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      5) Stay in your lane. If boss says “do x”, then that is what you must do. IF you do not understand or you have specific questions it’s fine to ask. It’s not fine to randomly decide, “Nope. Not going to do x.”

      6) Managers must help all employees develop. It’s a core task to management. It’s to be expected that some employees will shoot out beyond our level. It’s not a personal affront, OP, it’s just life.

      7) Managers must provide subordinates with the information they need to do their job. This is not optional. If a manager cannot do this basic activity, then the manager cannot manage, period.

      8) Managers must build a cohesive group through respect and honesty. So while your group seemed pretty cohesive in their dislike and contempt for the new employee that proved to be a house of cards for all of you.
      True cohesion is lasting. Cohesion built through scapegoating will not last.

      9) When upper management starts a new program, launches a new idea or brings in a new employee it is up to the manager to present it to the group as “this is what we are doing now”. Ideally, the manager would present it as “this is a good idea and we all need to work at this.” Managers are supposed to get the team on board with New Idea. You did everything you could think of to get your team to think that having this new employee was a bad idea. That is not what you were being paid to do, you were being paid to tell them it was a good idea. You were being paid to tell your crew to support this new person. You chose not to tell them these things.

      With these things in mind, you may want to consider if management is for you or not.

  116. Sunshine Brite*

    There is so much to unpack in this exchange I hope the OP does some soul-searching while she plans her next career steps. She mentioned not having to like everyone as a justification for the actions, but the same could be said to her – that she doesn’t have to like everyone and they don’t have to like her. The employee described sounded highly competent, influential, and oriented within the market in ways that the company needed. I work in social work and have seen what effect therapy can have on perceptions and I encourage the OP to consider seeking therapy to improve perspective.

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      Particularly how threatened you were at the potential for this employee’s recognition and success and that feeling of being scapegoated in this process.

      Plus all the fireable offenses along the way
      – many workplaces have a code of conduct; if my coworkers and I bought alcohol on our lunch break we would earn the disciplinary actions from our various behavioral health boards, potential negative media coverage for our employer, and difficulty switching positions in our area.
      -Downgrading an employee’s status for intangible reasons that have a direct business consequence
      -Harrassment – age (same generation even?!?), body size, communication style, etc.
      -Trying to maintain a homogenous work group

    2. Letter Writer*

      Thank you. I have started the process of finding a therapist and also receiving coaching for other issues.

      3. H.C.*

        I’m glad you’re taking that step as well; also, in case it hasn’t been addressed already – no, do not take any action against the ex-employee, you and your team have no standing to do so and it’ll only worsen things for all parties involved.

      5. Natalie*

        That is really great, sincerely. I hope you find your experience in therapy helpful. I can say from my own experience that it may well be hard and painful. Try not and run from those feelings.

      7. Augusta Sugarbean*

        It can’t be at all easy to hear the same message over and over so props for sticking around to read all this. Being willing to do some serious self-evaluation and hard work will pay off in the long run. Very best of luck to you.

      8. Matilda Jefferies*

        Oh! I’m so glad I read through to see this, buried here in the middle of the thread. It can’t be easy to read all these comments, and I agree with fposte above that you’re doing a brave thing here. I really hope everything goes well for you, in therapy and in your future jobs.

      11. Jimulacrum*

        Awesome. Seriously. Good for you. I know a lot of the commentary here has been pretty harsh, and I’d say rightfully so, but this positive step warrants recognition.

      13. Mb13*

        Show them what you have writen to this website as behavior you want help dealing with. This would be a great starting point.

      14. Observer*

        That’s a good piece of news.

        I hope you find a good coach and a good therapist.

        I also hope that you have the courage and guts to do the hard work that’s facing you. I don’t mean to be a downer. But you will be better served by understanding that this won’t be easy. It IS doable, though.

      15. Not So NewReader*

        Good for you, OP.

        I could be totally wrong, but I am seeing a lot of anger in your letter and a lot of fear. Perhaps someone was unjust with you. Maybe life in general has been unkind. I wish you the best going forward.

      16. JanetInSC*

        This is such good news! Therapy is hard work but the benefits last a lifetime. There may come a day when you feel very guilty and foolish about what has happened. This will be necessary for growth, but please understand that we humans can learn from our mistakes and do better. You are taking the first step on the road to redemption. I admire your willingness to do this.

      17. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        This is a really good first step, OP, and it takes a lot of self-awareness to seek this kind of help (I am a huge believer in therapy). I hope the second and third steps also lead you to a better place.

      18. Old Admin*

        Thank you for taking this step!
        I am much older than you, and I can confirm that you grow from this super hard lesson.
        You will (as I did) figuratively wail, gnash your teeth, tear your hair, or even cry for real from the felt injustice – but at the end of the day, you will find a way to do things, and be a (slightly) different success again.

        I know you can do it. :-)

      19. This Daydreamer*

        Find a fantastic one. Therapy is a rough journey sometimes but, if you’re willing to listen and be truthful to yourself, it can help you make your life so much better. Good luck.

  117. ElCamino*

    Lots of cringing while reading this update, yikes. I’m pretty floored at the lack of self-awareness and the lengths to which you went to alienate your employee, OP, and don’t think you should be in a manager role for the foreseeable future. Hope you take some time to *really* reflect on this situation, as you’ve likely burned quite a few bridges…

    I’ve read a lot of great responses upthread and don’t want to pile on – so I’ll just wish all the best to the ex-employee who endured all this, and hope she finds a more welcoming team.

  118. Fronzel Neekburm*

    LW, I wanted to highlight one particular part of your response, where you note that you and your team are looking to take action against ex-employee. I absolutely think that you should. The action you and your team need to take is an apology. I know you’re thinking of taking legal action, but as Alison has noted: what you did was incredibly illegal. It was so unbelievably illegal that any action you would take would only have the result of possibly blacklisting you from your field more than you are in danger of being blacklisted now.

    I really hope you take a few minutes of self-reflection to see how what you did wasn’t right. Even from a moral standpoint: you made some miserable because you thought they were lesser than you and your group? And you want “credit” for not firing her flat out?

    Please. Take a few minutes and look at the words you have written. Reflect on them. Use them to improve. Be thankful the end result wasn’t a lot worse.

  120. NotThatGardner*

    “HR told me the brewery beer runs were against company policy” — I am genuinely surprised that LW didn’t know this, as a manager.

    I am also surprised because I truly thought (hoped?) in the original letter that this was something akin to what a couple colleagues and I did at an OldJob (a startup): using lunch break to go get growlers filled for out-of-work hours, because there was a great place nearby. We did this with VP’s permission and encouragement… and understanding that we weren’t drinking during lunch, just purchasing. I really thought that might be the situation, but I gather from the update that LW’s team was actively drinking at the brewery during lunch, *not* just picking up/making a beer run for later.

    LW, I hope you will take these things to heart. Many companies have strict alcohol policies, and encouraging your team to break them is courting disaster and causes the potential for screwups or worse with clients – especially given the nature of your field and the stereotypically buttoned up nature of many Fortune 500-type companies. Partying on a lunch break in hopes of fostering friendships “in and outside of work” is not worth the risk and unprofessional look it gives you.

  121. CityMouse*

    I will answer LW’s direct question: in the US at least, truth is an absolute defense to libel/defamation and you have admitted you treated her cruelly so it sounds like nothing she said is untrue. Why the heck do you think you and your team have any basis for any kind of action at all? The law provides no action for you suffering the rational and foreseeable consequences for your actions.

  122. Callalily*

    I can get how hard it is to truly accept where you went wrong – we all have that internal dialogue that will justify anything we do (to a certain degree). I’ve even been guilty of blaming other people for problems that were clearly caused by my own shortcomings and inexperience.

    Recognize that none of what you’ve heard is a personal attack. You don’t need to defend yourself or justify anything. It is your actions in the professional capacity of a manger that are being criticized; learn from what happened and do your best going forward to learn from it. Even if you don’t agree with it, at least keep it from happening again. That is the life of a professional.

    If possible it’d be good to take some time off and really reflect on the feedback you’ve received. Even try putting yourself in the shoes of everyone else and see how you’d judge yourself as a manager. I would discourage you from seeking out management positions for now – this is a sign that you clearly weren’t ready

  123. Djuna*

    I hope the LW gets distance enough sometime soon to read through her own words.

    From this update we have her:
    Going against the director’s wishes and assigning projects to junior staff members so they don’t complain about lack of development.
    Disagreeing with everyone else about the quality of the employee’s work product and reputation, and going so far as to downgrade their evaluation.
    Insisting that the employee wasn’t all that when losing them lost the firm clients and revenue.
    Considering someone who quietly does excellent work (again, according to others in the firm and clients) to be showing off.
    Not understanding that having a stellar performer that consistently goes the extra mile makes both her team and her manager look good.
    Claiming that an advanced degree automatically makes a person smarter/more driven than any other person.
    Admitting to being jealous of the employee’s potential career path and doing her best to derail it.

    This is all directly from the letter, I’m not extrapolating anything.

    And if proof were needed that this woman was making her manager and team look better, the company would rather fire all of them directly because of the behavior that led to them losing her.

    OP, there are many lessons there, please step back, tell your hurt and your ego to take a back seat and try your hardest to look at this as though you weren’t part of it. Most people here see all of this the same way your bosses and your former employee did – and all we’re working from is what you chose to tell AAM. Listening to your team got you here, listening to AAM and the commentariat here can keep you from ever winding up here again.

  124. js*

    “… I still think my entire situation is messed up that my team got tanked because of someone who couldn’t handle the office and who didn’t need to be there anyway.”

    LW, Your bosses told you she did need to be there. They knew what type of sales they wanted. They knew what type of experience was needed. They knew what type of projects they wanted her on. And she was actually very good at her job. You disregarded all of that- and allowed some pretty appalling behavior from your own team- for reasons that seem to come down to “I just didn’t like her, I felt threatened, I know better than my bosses.” And you seem to think that any of that matters.

    there are a lot of things you can and should learn from this, but hopefully you can take at least one thing to heart. what *you* think does not matter as much as you imagine it should. you can either rail against that perceived unfairness and keep losing, or suck it up and do what you are told even when you disagree.

    1. Woahh*

      The idea of not being able to handle the office really strikes me as a problematic way of thinking. Employees should not need anything special to handle your team environment! Like, that’s a sign of problems, if you feel like there are particular social skills beyond civil/pleasant that people need to deal with your setup.

  125. Infinity Anon*

    It sounds like LW was feeling threatened by this employee and was trying to prevent her from being promoted. “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

      1. KHB*

        So, jealousy is a feeling that I can understand. I’ve often felt extremely threatened by people who are good at the same things I’m good at. One thing that’s helped me to (mostly) overcome that is the realization that people who are good at what they do aren’t being successful “at” me. They’re not trying to beat me or make me look bad. They’re just doing what they do, because it gives them fulfillment to do it.

        Another thing that helps is to remind myself that when you’re part of a team – especially when you’re the leader – you’re all on the same side. You all have the same goal of producing good work for your customers/clients/whatever. When your team, or your company, succeeds, that’s good for all of you, because it means more recognition or money or opportunities to go around. (There are still cases where it’s reasonable to feel that the recognition or money or opportunities aren’t being distributed fairly, and sometimes you have every right to be pissed off about that. But those cases turn out to be a lot rarer than my gut used to like to tell me they are.)

      2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

        I just want to say that you being honest enough to say this is a big deal. It is not easy to face our weaknesses. Please continue on this path. It won’t be easy but it will be worth it.

        One thing that might help: jealousy is different from envy. Jealousy is envy mixed with spite. Envy is, ‘wow, that person has this awesome thing! I wish I had it.’ But there are no negative emotions attached. Maybe admiration, or seeing what they have gives you the push to go after what you want. Jealousy is, ‘I hate that person for having that awesome thing that I want.’ It is poison and will eat you up inside.

        So one thing you can try, if you see someone with something you want, try admiring them. Or phrasing your feelings in an admiring way. “Wow, she has this awesome thing. I wouldn’t mind having that. But good for her! I’ll bet she worked hard for it.” I don’t mean this in a quick-fix way, this is more to diffuse the negative emotions in the moment.

        Good luck with your progress, I really do wish you the best.

      3. NextStop*

        Good for you for admitting it. That can’t be easy.

        I imagine it’s also not easy to read this thread and the last one, which have both been highly critical towards you. I’m impressed that you’ve replied to anyone, and that you sent Alison an update. Thank you for that.

      4. Cassandra*

        Hi, LW. That’s a big admission, and I’m betting it was hard. Good for you. The green-eyed monster is big and strong and tough and LOUD.

        I’m an educator. I wasn’t always; I now train people for similar fields to the field I left. And here’s a thing: some of my graduates have done vastly better than I ever did, by any yardstick you can imagine.

        Money? Oh sure; I’m heavily outearned by some of our alumni.
        Professional recognition? Well, I’ve done pretty well on that score, but… yes, a few.
        Professional accomplishment (in the “getting stuff done, changing the world” sense)? Yes. This is and has always been hardest for me to accept, as it’s my top personal-professional aim.
        Position on the org chart? Absolutely. This happens never to have been one of my ambitions, so it’s not all that hard for a graduate to run rings around me, and many have.
        Skill? Sure. I’m a jack-of-all-trades, which works fine for what I do now, but means that almost any alumni who specialize and focus in hard can school me, eventually. Some do.

        What I had to do to be as good an educator as I am is rejoice in their successes. Rejoice! Take joy! Praise and congratulate them! I won’t lie to you, it wasn’t always easy, especially at first. I wanted to BE them so badly sometimes. But I can’t teach or mentor people by pulling them down, only by raising them up.

        Here’s a secret. Well, a couple of secrets. Well, a few secrets. The first secret is that rejoicing for others’ success gets easier and more automatic with practice. The second secret is that rejoicing, in addition to just plain being enjoyable, tames the green-eyed monster. The third secret is that people you rejoice with and for have a way of not leaving you behind. I’ve collaborated on professional projects with successful graduates who invited me to — rewarding and gratifying experiences, every last one.

        The last secret is that everything I’ve said is just as applicable to managing people as it is to educating them. Good luck at conquering your green-eyed monster, OP. You won’t ever be sorry for doing it, I promise.

      5. TootsNYC*

        Here is one good thing about this being jealousy: With help from a good therapist, you can unpack this.

        There is strength ahead of you, LW, if you are brave enough to be honest with yourself ABOUT yourself!

        Good luck.

  126. VonSackvilleEast*

    OP, the simplest and kindest advice I can give you is, you have everything upside down. I think you need to throw out pretty much everything you think you know (about being a manager and how workplaces should operate), and start fresh. AAM is a good source with a lot of very smart commenters, so you can find plenty of good advice and resources here in the archives.

    In no particular order:

    One of the core skills of a good manager is people skills. Building relationships, creating teams, developing employees, managing fairly and firmly. You did all of these things really, really badly. This is an area where live examples are probably more helpful than articles or books so in future jobs, you should consider identifying leaders who do this well and watching how they do it.
    Being liked is not the same as respect. It sounds like you have the two really mixed up. Get clear on the different, and understand the respect is important as a two-way street: you have to give it to your employees, not just get it as a boss.
    In the majority of professions, relevant experience matters more than a degree. There are exceptions like law or medicine where you can’t do the job without a specific degree. But in general, someone who has successfully done Task X or Project Y repeatedly in a job is more valuable than someone who has only studied it in school. Education is important, especially at the beginning of a career, but you are placing way too much importance on having a masters degree. I have a masters degree too. So what? If you keep using this a measuring stick for who’s important and who isn’t, you are going to keep making horrible mistakes at work. Let go of this idea that higher degrees equal higher levels of skills. It’s inaccurate, limiting, and very, very annoying.

    I wish I had more advice for you, but frankly, your update really bummed me out. I’m sorry that you and your team lost your jobs. That’s hard. Unfortunately, it sounds like you still don’t get the crux of it: this entire situation was your self-created mess. Until you truly see where you went wrong, you won’t learn. I really do wish you well in the future, and hope you will see things differently at a future point.

  127. Archie Goodwin*

    Sweet mother of Leoš Janáček. I think this is the first time something I’ve read anywhere has made my jaw actually drop.

    I’ve tried several times to start a sentence here, and every time I keep coming back to the fact that I’m seeing some very good advice upthread. All I can do is fall back on some advice I gave you in the last thread, which is this: self-reflection is a useful, vital life skill, and I strongly urge you to spend some time working on it. It’s not easy – I’m the first to admit it – but it’s will serve you well in the long run.

    If I may be blunt: I think what concerns me most of all, as a reader, is the fact that the last thread went into over 1,000 comments, and the vast majority of them, if not all, were contrary to your position. And you’re still digging in your heels despite that. Surely…if that many people found fault with your actions, that means that maybe there’s something in it?

  128. Allioop*

    As a millenial, I am pretty incensed by this behavior and very very concerned. It sounds almost a little too stereotypical. FWIW I am also a millenial have a child and a partner and investments and commitments outside of work that don’t include daily or weekly trips to a brewery. My team at work is BETTER because of the diversity across experience, education, and age on it, and this LW would have done well to consider how these aspects can provide better work and performance over-all. I am also concerned because I often find myself being stereotyped and having it assumed that my behavior will be like this. “Cultural fit” and similar language has been used very frequently in order to discriminate in the workforce, and I would caution the OP to be very very careful about how they frame their work, and encourage them to seek some mentor-ship from someone they trust to help frame some of this experience and how to move forward.

    I feel very deeply for the ex-employee and hope they found a work environment that wasn’t so hostile.

  129. Nobody Knows My Name*

    My favorite line: “…I thought as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager.” This is the comment of someone who came here for ammunition, no for learning.

  130. President Porpoise*

    A good manager does not need to make friends with her employees. She should be friendly, yes – this fosters open communication and trust. She should understand and work to implement her company’s strategy. She should be proud of her direct reports’ special skills and accomplishments, and try to find opportunities for all of them that help them develop their strengths while furthering the company’s growth. She should exhibit ethical professionalism and honesty in all her dealings, and never do anything that will directly harm the reputation of the company or her employees unless absolutely required (whistleblowing or firing someone for example). She should immediately stamp out behaviors displayed by her direct reports that do not follow these same standards.

    If you are too focused on being friends with your employees, you end up with poor communication, lack of trust from any direct employee not in your friend group, favoritism (real and perceived), jealousy, a weakened team more focused on fun than company strategy, and a poor professional reputation (both individually and at the company level).

    You can successfully be friends with direct reports if you are careful, but managing by friendship is a disaster as you now see. For your sake, please learn how to compartmentalize your life a bit better. Read the previous comments, eat some crow, and really consider whether you want to do what it takes to be a good manager. If not – well, there’s nothing wrong with spending your career as an individual contributor.

    1. TootsNYC*

      I also wonder if perhaps our OP ended up being pushed around a little by her employees.

      She wanted to make them happy.
      Maybe they complained about this “newcomer” who was “unqualified (without a degree)” so loudly, and that colored the OP’s thinking.

      That’s another reason to create and keep distance between you and the people who work for you. Often people will try to get as much power in a workplace as they can, and a manager who is not firmly rooted can be swayed or bossed around by the people under them.

      Sometimes you have to make them unhappy. You can’t give them everything they want.

      1. teclatrans*

        Yes, I wondered this too. OP described her insubordination with some accuracy, yet clearly felt that it was justified and would be supported by a professional manager like SAM. When she described reassigning desirable tasks to her own team members (particularly a newly promoted senior) so she could take care of their professional development and *so they wouldn’t complain*, I got the distinct impression that somewhere along the line she had learned that it was her job and responsibility to tend to those employees’ needs. Now, maybe some of her reports were actively nasty and manipulative or maybe the most opportunistic just learned how to get ahead in a work culture defined by a boss who prioritized feeling liked by her team, but something definitely went awry in those 5 years of working as a team. When you combine that with jealousy (which you’ve acknowledged, good job), it can be so easy to do what you most want (keep ex-employee from succeeding) either in response to complaining or as a convenient way to further but the love of your team. (Spoiler: that love may not be as solid aabyou think, though most likely you know that on some level, or you wouldn’t feel like you need to keep buying it with beer runs and juicy assignments.)

        OP, I think it would be great if you were to spend some time as a therapist identifying the needs and assumptions you had in your years as a manager, and see if you can let go of or transform some of those that are most harmful for you (and others). As one possible starting point, you might reexamine what you thought your actions were achieving with what they actually did. For instance, you seem to think that a highly competent employee who easily [did things good salespeople should do] and went above and beyond ‘for no reason’ was a threat not only to you, but to your team; it is hard nor to conclude, especially from that last line, that your team was not made of superstars, and you were not pushing them to improve their work ethic. How do you reconcile that with the impression that you were a good manager and did right by a high-performing team? Only through mental gymnastics, I am afraid.

        Turns out I am out of time, and so won’t describe some of the other cognitive distortions I am seeing, but I will just say: LW, as you explore therapy, I hope you will learn more about the idea of cognitive distortions, and how yours have harmed you and your career, and need to be replaced. It won’t be easy, but it will make your life, and the lives of people you touch, so much better.

  131. Courtney*

    OP, you say you want some credit for not firing the ex-employee or punishing the person who complained about Snapchat. But here’s the thing – you didn’t punish the Snapchat person because you didn’t know who they were. And you didn’t fire th employee because you were doing some bizarre workplace version of “I don’t want to dump my boyfriend, so I’m just going to treat him like shit until he breaks up with me.” Why do you think you deserve credit for those actions? I also suspect that part of the reason you didn’t just fire ex-employee is because your boss would have (rightfully) been angry with you about it. You were hoping to avoid having an unpleasant conversation about it and having your work find out about your attitude towards ex-employee. I’m glad that didn’t end up happening.

  132. wut*

    “Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me.”

    Is anyone else absolutely BOGGLED by this? She was hired for a reason… and then she has someone actively taking her work away! Why didn’t she tell the team members, “I hear you, but that’s Jane’s role”?

    I recall her being miffed that Jane was hired. It’s honestly no wonder to me that she was fired st this point- instead of accepting a decision made by her superiors, she actively and openly combatted it.

    What a surreal update.

    1. DArcy*

      It pretty much sounds like LW decided (based purely on her own prejudice and jealousy) that Jane didn’t deserve the job she was hired for, so she gave Jane’s work to the team members she felt “rightfully deserved” the upward mobility.

  133. Snark*

    Yeah, I think this is the takeaway. Whether or not you think you were justified and right and this was all a scapegoating witch hunt or if you accept all our outraged advice, the fact remains: This got you and your entire group fired. Fired! Without severance! Do you comprehend how drastic, how extreme that move was? How much time and energy they’re going to have to spend to re-hire not just a replacement for you, but everyone you drank beer with? How many months they will be going without that sales revenue, without expanding the business into the area your new report was supposed to help with? How long will your replacements How many FTEs will go towards the crash hiring process? They didn’t just fire your ass, they said goodbye to hundreds of thousands, maybe over a million, dollars, and they did so knowing that YOU WOULD COST THEM MORE. They thought it was WORTH IT, LW!

    If you understand nothing else, LW, please try to internalize that. Nobody spends that kind of money on a scapegoat.

  134. Mike C.*

    Something constructive:

    I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.

    We need to stop devaluing experience! We require it for entrance into a job but once hired we all too often treat any hard skills as “something that anyone can learn” and folks end up being treated as interchangeable cogs. This issue has come up in other letters as well and I hope that we can take a moment and consider this issue more seriously.

    1. TeacherNerd*

      Yes, so much this. I can’t speak for how this manifests itself in other fields specifically, but I see this happen in education, especially between those who teach at higher levels of education (post-secondary) vs. those who teacher at the K-12 levels.

      Definitely not always, though, thank goodness! Many times it happens because of ego (e.g., “High school teachers only have a bachelors degree/masters degree!”) but as often as not, it’s because the requirements of the job, or rather, the governmental oversight, is different; a different type of background is mandated by the state, which leads to misunderstandings about levels of expertise and access to content-specific access, as opposed to broader educational trends. (For example, there may be more emphasis on education conferences in K-12 settings, as opposed to conferences specifically for language and literature.)

      But ego is such a big part of is, which is what jumped out at me in the LW’s post – contempt for someone who “only” has a bachelor’s degree. That doesn’t necessarily make you smarter or better at your job.

    2. Woahh*

      I’m commenting a lot today, but I just went back for a teritary degree, and most of my cohort came directly from undergrad, and wow, the opportunities I’ve gotten because of my five years of work demonstrate that I can do good work, get on with others well enough, and then the hands on skills I’ve gained as well! It provoked some crap from my cohort, it really sucks.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Okay, this alone should disqualify this person from a management position. If you don’t understand why this is not the case, you are straight-up not mature enough to be in charge of people. I mean, this whole situation is full of examples of somebody who is not mature enough to be in charge of people, but this right here is so basic that . . . I really don’t even know how to respond to any of this.

  135. Emily, admin extraordinaire*

    Responding point by point:

    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me.

    This is insubordination. If you truly wanted to spread work around and develop your other team members, the proper course would have been to take your concerns to your director and ask if you can redistribute. Not unilaterally decide to favor your other team members above this employee, who was only trying to do the job she was assigned to do, and which you were actively preventing her from doing.

    I had also downgraded her end-of-year evaluation. I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director and client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me..

    This is bad management. Good managers take feedback from other stakeholders (who see things the manager may not, especially when not under the manager’s direct eye) and incorporate it into how they view their employees. This should go both ways, incidentally– if you get feedback from someone outside your team that your employee isn’t up to snuff, you need to take that seriously as well. You clearly allowed your personal biases to influence your view of this employee, and it shows.

    I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing.

    Actually, this is called bullying and ostracizing, and it has no place in the workplace. It shouldn’t have any place anywhere, but definitely not among reasonable adults.

    My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.

    How is being quiet being a show-off? How is being competent being a show-off? It sounds to me as though you were intimidated by and jealous of her skills, and imputed your own insecurities onto her work.

    When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.

    So she was a stellar employee who made you look bad in comparison, but instead of stepping up your game (which is how you should have reacted) you ignored her legitimate requests for assistance and froze her out.

    My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness.

    So you favored a known quantity above an unknown quantity, without stepping back and looking at all the facts. You acted on emotions rather than evidence. This is a bad trait in a manager.

    I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.

    Education is great. I’m all for it. I have a master’s degree myself. But education does not equal smart (some of the dumbest people I know still managed to get a bachelor’s degree, and one of the smartest people I’ve ever met only had a high school diploma). Education does not equal dedication (it take a whole lot of dedication to work your way up from entry-level into the kind position this employee filled). And in many cases, education is no substitute for experience. Learning about something in a classroom and actually going out and doing it are two very different things, as you should now realize after getting an MBA and getting fired from your first managing job. Some people learn from the School of Life. You’re enrolled in a course at that school now. Hopefully you’ll get a passing grade, although you’re sure not at the moment. And the sooner you drop your attitude of measuring people by the letters they can put after their name, the better.

    HR and my regional vice president stated she had been hired to fill a role for a growing segment of our business and should have functioned as a team consultant. I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team. By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name. During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.

    You ignored direct instruction from your higher-ups, second-guessed their decisions and judgement, and imposed restrictions on her that prevented her from fulfilling the job she was hired to do. You were jealous of her position and possible upward mobility. Longevity in a company does not entitle you to promotion– talent and work ethic and competence do that. Your jealousy is showing again.

    HR told me the brewery beer runs were against company policy and I should have stopped the SnapChats, especially those who had it on their company phones. I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying?

    Making fun of someone behind their back, especially by taking pictures of them unaware, is bullying. It made her the butt of jokes and further ostracized her from her co-workers. It’s also childish and immature and incredibly, deeply cruel.

    My entire team was fired. The reasons for the firings included alcohol at work, even though we were physically at the brewery, inappropriate social media behavior, and not meeting the code of conduct.

    Good. Nothing about this situation is okay, and this was an appropriate response by your company.

    I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn

    1) You will not always like everyone you work with, but you should treat them all courteously and professionally. 2) You should never make unilateral decisions about your employees that directly contradict decisions made by your higher-ups. 3) Education is not a measure of worth. 4) Your behavior to your employee was unprofessional and bullying. 5) You should not allow your emotions to rule your judgement.

    I hope you take a pause while you’re looking for a new job and take a good, hard look at yourself, LW. If you use this experience as an opportunity for self-reflection, I think you can turn things around. If not, well. . . I don’t have much hope for you, or for your career.

    Best of luck.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Basically, OP, you acted like a loose cannon and management decided they did not trust you to do the work they hired you to do.

  136. Kathenus*

    Hi LW – I’d like to try and answer your last questions, and give you some food for thought that hopefully you’ll consider once the rawness of this situation has lessened a bit. First to the questions at the end of your update:

    – Ok but can I still get some credit for NOT doing it though? (meaning retaliate against the Snapchat reporter) – Yes, I give you credit for not following through on this. That’s a step in the right direction. Ideally you will come around to different reasons that not retaliating was the correct action, but definitely good that you did not act on it by moving her out of the department.

    – …Or not firing ex employee? – Sorry, I don’t give you credit on this one. From what I read in your letter there were no performance-related reasons for you to fire her, so from what information is available to me, there would have been no justification for firing her.

    – So I wanted to make it uncomfortable for her to leave and didn’t think I’d lose my job in the process – From everything in your update about the ex-employee, from the perspective of your company she was a high-performing, stellar employee. Your discounting that in favor of creating a team of friends and ‘fun’ that you supported over the needs of the organization was a bad misreading of the culture.

    You’re paying a steep price for your actions right now, and are probably still too close to the decision to see it objectively. Instead of focusing on what you think the ex-employee, the Snapchat reporter, and your organization did wrong, please try to take a step back and look at how you can learn and grow from this painful experience to be a better employee, manager, and person in the future.

    Even if the other players in this situation did things you didn’t agree with, you can only change yourself and your behavior. If you focus on that, and try to look at this through a clear lens not the wounded one you have now, you can – over time – turn things around and use this situation to start you on the road to being a more thoughtful and considerate human being. I wish you the best of luck.

  137. Kate the Purple*

    OP, I really hope you are able to take a step back and consider the comments here. No one here is attacking you. We’re all giving critique in hopes that you will be a better manager. I really think you need to take a step back and realize that your perception of how a manager should act is skewed:

    1. Giving an assignment to someone b/c it’s in their job role is not “special” and is does not screw over long term team members. Why? Because it’s their job. Seniority does not automatically qualify someone to get the better assignments. Seniority at a company doesn’t have as much weight as you think it does. Just because she will be senior to you in just two years over your five years at the company does not automatically make it unfair. As to the giving of assignments, if you felt that your existing team members had the skills to complete the assignment more efficiently, that’s someone you should’ve discussed with upper management. If you wanted to give your existing team members room to develop professional develop, then you could have asked upper management if you could also assign a team member to work on the assignment as well. Alternatively, if team members complained, then it should have been explained to them that she’s doing that work because it’s HER JOB ROLE. Being a manager doesn’t give you the authority to unilaterally decide what’s best for your team without consulting with upper management. You don’t exist in a vacuum, and you need to realize that there are decisions being made on information that you don’t know so if you want to go against the wishes of upper management you need to get permission.

    You also stated that she was hired as an associate with a consultant, and that you used her as an associate to avoid “making waves.” Again, that wasn’t your decision to make. Adjustments are hard, and it’s not easy to bring on a new team member who may be viewed as usurping the roles of existing employees. But in a business, sometimes these things have to be done, and it’s your job as a manager to manage the waves.

    2. As a manager, if you don’t like someone, the answer isn’t to freeze them out and “unmanage” them. A good manager will find a way to constructively address problems. If you weren’t happy with her work, a better option would be to let her know her what her weaknesses are and where she needs to improve.

    3. Moreover, it was unfair to blame your team member for the unfair praise you believed she was receiving. That was completely not her fault. That’s either a problem with upper management or a bias on your part. To take it out her was wrong.

    4. You view her ability to connect with clients and give presentations as show-off like. Regardless of your opinion, you work for a business and results matter. It doesn’t matter if you think her method is too show-off like, it produces results. For example, I work as an attorney in a very specialized field. I HATE networking. I HATE the small talk involve, and I find the salesman ship of it can sometimes be insincere. But it’s something I’ve accepted as part of my job because that’s how the industry works. Whether I like it or not doesn’t really matter.

    5. Bullying is bullying even the person being bullied does not see it. One of your inquiries was to ask how to monitor such behavior. It would be impossible to monitor everyone’s behavior 100% of the time, but once you became aware of what was going on, you should have put a stop to it, and used whatever disciplinary system was in place at work to address the people who were making those snaps.

    I really hope you change your mind and reflect on your behavior because these comments are really trying to offer you feedback that you can use to be better in the future, and so that you don’t end up making the same mistakes at your next job.

  138. AngelicGamer*

    I want to comment on the bit about not being on Snapchat doesn’t mean that the person knows they’re being bullied. Oh hell yes they do. I was bullied via a social medium that I didn’t use at the time. It bled over into all other aspects of the volunteer job, up to a practical joke that could have seriously hurt me if I didn’t sense something was off before stepping out of my room. I was rooming with the main bully and didn’t even know something was truly wrong – I just thought the long hours were making me think something was off instead of trusting my gut. There was no happy ending for me, as I was going to be moved instead of any consequence to the bully because they went to church and could network in ways I couldn’t, so meh. My performance was never the same after because I didn’t have the backing of the person in charge, just a couple of the second level managers, but I finished out the job.

    2. Kim Possible*

      In high school, I was bullied on social media by some former soccer teammates of mine. At school, I had study hall with one of my former teammates, who I thought was still my friend. Her and another former teammate said some horrible, nasty things about me on a Facebook post, and even made some physical threats. They didn’t say my name, but it was clear that they were alluding to me (saying that I was a crybaby, that I wore too much makeup, that I was ugly, that I wasn’t half as good a soccer player as I thought I was, and threatening to break my neck when my new soccer team faced off versus my old team.) I didn’t see the Facebook post until about a week after the exchange took place. In the days between when the Facebook exchange happened and when I saw the post, my former teammate and study hall classmate who I thought was my friend, was perfectly pleasant to my face.

    3. Woahh*

      I’ve had similar situations, including with a relative. It is startling when the truth comes out. Sometimes it may be immaturity, peer pressure, mh issues (I know when I was struggling I engaged in some crappy social behaviors), a particular set of circumstances, whatever. And then sometimes there’s something more akin to integrity issues or something much deeper.

  139. TootsNYC*

    That first paragraph is a huge list of really good reasons to fire the OP, and yet she doesn’t see it.

    You don’t need to get to the beer runs and the SnapChat. Those are totally wrong, but they’re not the really damaging thing here.

    This:

    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role,

    This was direct, active insubordination. Working against the goals of the organization by ignoring the orders of someone higher up than you, and actively working to “un-manage” someone whose role had been identified and specifically recruited for by the company.

    Re-assigning work that had been specifically delegated by the director–from the expert to a rookie, in an area in which the expert had been specifically recruited to create major financial growth.

    And the company suffered a lot!

    I think our OP got an incorrect idea of how much autonomy she is allowed to have in being a department manager. You still have bosses over you, and you still need to follow their orders. Sure, you may know your team better, and you may want to develop your junior staff, but you don’t change your director’s assignments without making the case to the director and getting buy-in for your different plan.

    1. Archie Goodwin*

      That struck me, too – she even used the word “insubordination”, completely guilelessly.

      I’m sure others have said this – and apologies if I have missed this – but I wonder, letter-writer, if this was your first managerial position? Because these are some interesting assumptions to have made right off the bat.

    2. TootsNYC*

      You know what else?

      “Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role,”

      Those weren’t special assignments. Those were her role!!

      They were special assignments to the rest of your team, because that wasn’t their jobs.

  140. Tata*

    I haven’t read all of the other comments. I’m at work on break & have limited time but I had to weigh in. I gasped out loud as well from original letter & LW’s comments.

    WOW…WOW… I am astounded. I truly hope you attempt to understand Alison and commentators. I too work in investments, insurance, trust company. I do not have a masters degree, only a measly bachelors along with multiple certification. You say she as a show off but you are as well, your comment: “she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters).” LW, you were fired for being insubordinate. You even said in your letter that you undermined your director/leadership, your comment: “I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior.” She was hired to do a job and you undermined your new report as well. YOU as a manager created a hostile work environment and in your words: “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave.” Oh, there’s on such thing as un-managing. It is bullying even if she isn’t on snap chat. You’ve created a hostile environment for rest of your team and was ready to go after the person who reported it to HR. The person who reported the bullying snap chat went to HR directly and not to you is because of your unprofessional attitude and hostile actions. The new hire wasn’t a know-it-all, she did her job well and you couldn’t handle that. You were hostile to her as a manager, based on your comment: “Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me. I had also downgraded her end-of-year evaluation. I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director and client executives.” If you or your employees did their job that well and/or had the expertise your leadership team was looking for, then you or someone on your team would have been hired for the job. I hate when someone, especially a whole team looses their jobs but based on how you managed your team, you are responsible for your team and yourself for being fired. Oh and NO askamanager.org isn’t going to take your side automatically. This site is to help people with their careers whether it’s management or janitor.

  141. EddieSherbert*

    OP, thanks for writing back. Honestly, if I was in your position and mindset (just the mindset of “I hope this site will support me and then they didn’t”), I probably wouldn’t have sent in an update. It’s really appreciated and could be a good learning opportunity for others.

    That being said, it also can still be a learning opportunity for you. Bookmark the pages and come back here in a couple weeks or whenever you’re feeling less upset. Please please read some of the comments from the first post and from this one with an open mind. It really could help with future jobs.

  142. Case of the Mondays*

    Just a quick reminder to know your state before deciding whether something is age discrimination or not. In some states (New Hampshire being one of them) age discrimination is illegal at ALL ages. You can’t discriminate against someone for being too young or too old.

  143. Adhdy*

    Rarely post – but feel compelled. I was three times a very, very bad manager. Once it was an impossible situation that I truly lacked the skills and maturity to handle (was 22 – resigned before I was fired) and twice it was because I didn’t know how to manage someone who didn’t perform the way *I* wanted them to. All on me.- I hadn’t had a lot of great managers to model behavior on, and other excuses, but I was still a dick.

    After the third time I tried to improve my skills. To begin with I started looking at the quality of the manager I would report to. I took classes. I developed a network of managers in the city at my level who I could ask for confidential advice. When I see a manager handle a difficult situation I ask myself what I would do.

    Also, I tell my manager and my direct reports that sometimes you need to be direct with me if I’m not getting the hint.

    I guess I want the OP to know that there is a path forward from crashing and burning. Once the anger and upset of firing abates a little, this could truly be an opportunity to understand how you got there and do better.

    And random aside – I once had a great manager tell me I was a superstar and if I could get some rough areas figured out I would be managing him someday. And that’s the best you can ask for as a manager because no one takes better care of you than someone who used to love working for you.

    1. Kathenus*

      Adhdy – thanks for sharing your experience, I hope that the LW sees hope for herself in the future through your story.

      I also had a wonderful manager in my past who told me that there was one aspect of my performance holding me back from achieving whatever I wanted to, and she supported me to improve (including money for a coach to help address it) versus just berating me for it – the truest example of ‘constructive’ criticism I’ve ever received.

      It took my admitting I needed to improve, wanting to do so, and being willing to put myself out there with my direct reports and peers to have them help give me feedback on when I was and wasn’t moving in the right direction. It wasn’t an overnight change, but I still remember the pride a few years later, at a different workplace, when one of my strengths on a performance evaluation was the same thing that for many years had been called out as a weakness.

      LW – you can do this, if you’re willing to take ownership of your weaknesses as well as strengths, and are committed to improving.

    2. fposte*

      Oh, I really appreciate your honest retrospection there. Yes, OP, listen to this; it is possible to learn from this and be better.

    3. Archie Goodwin*

      Applause, plaudits, and laurels to you. I have immense respect for anyone who can take stock of themselves like this and change for the better.

      I wish more of the people I’ve worked with could follow your example, but that’s another story…

    4. The RO-Cat*

      Yeah, been there, done that. My first management job, in fact. I pushed out an employee I didn’t like (he was “tattling”), I ran the team in utter chaos and, even if I made my quota (sales management job) I was still fired when my VP found out. I was hurt – was I not popular with the team? Were they not ready to take a hit for me? Were we not united, a one? Did I not make my quota?

      Unfortunately, only the last item was important – but not so much as to cover for all my other shortcomings. So I was fired – in a country where firing is notoriously difficult. It took me years to process, but once I learned my lessons I became a good manager – recognized not only by my teams, but by my superiors also. All that is to say – LW, take a deep breath, let some time go by and come back and re-read when you’re ready. It was a hot mess what you did, but it’s not the end – you have here two persons who were there and came up for the best. Just learn and grow.

    5. hotsauceinmybag*

      Well said Adhdy. OP you may be feeling bruised now from all that’s happened, but I implore you to please do some self reflection on what landed you here. Maybe step away from your post and these comments for a bit, and then come back to them once things are a bit more settled. There is a lot of very solid information here, and it’s free and easily accessible, and will only help you if you’re open to it! One thing you did correctly note is that managers are supposed to look out for their staff and give them opportunities, but this applies for all team members, not just ones you personally like. Because, after all, it’s work, not a popularity contest. And if you ever find yourself managing again, there will likely be one or two reports who you think are especially swell, just from their work ethic, personality, mutual love of Will and Grace, or something else. Or there will be others who are more introverted, are out the door at closing time because of [reason], or loathe W&G. Either way, none of this can color your management of your team. Because a good manager is one who is clear on the goals of their team, has set appropriate standards based on those goals, and knows how to hold their staff to those standards. Unfortunately, you didn’t exercise any of this in the management of your team, and your HR department did exactly what it was supposed to do, which is to assess what is and is not acceptable in the organization and to deal with that accordingly. Alison posted a great response to a letter some time ago about the resentment that can fester among a few team members, when the boss, in an attempt to be liked, not rock the boat, etc. does not effectively address bad behavior among the majority of the team, or even just one awful employee. It seems that that is what happened with the employee that left. Ironically, her good work and professionalism that you’ve thumbed your nose at, is very well what may have caused HR to pay closer attention to her comments in the exit interview. And your statement about her Bachelors and your and your team members having Masters is exactly the type of shortsightedness that is a hallmark of poor management. As many have already said, please re-think all of this.

  144. Amber Rose*

    No. None of that is what managing is. That’s the problem.

    LW, go read through AAM archives about bad managers. You’ll see that a lot of people come here to complain about managers just like you, and they frequently get the response “your manager is terrible and you should find a better one.” But there’s also a lot of discussion of why that behavior is terrible, and what good management looks like, that you really need to read because you fundamentally don’t seem to understand how managing works. This is a good chance to learn.

    Aside from that, you get no credit for not being worse. If someone punches me, I don’t give them an award for not shooting me. You penalized someone who wanted to do a good job and cost your company clients and money when you chased her off. Do you at least understand why your company is upset about that? Why penalizing someone for being extra good at their job is just plain ridiculous? It’s not showing off, this isn’t high school. It’s called “doing the job you were hired to do.” The fact that clients left with this person should show you very clearly that your team was not very competent. Bluntly: nobody wanted to work with you or your terrible friends. That should be a cold slap to the face, LW, why are you not seeing this?

    You have a lot to learn about the working world. Please don’t let defensiveness and a refusal to learn get in your way.

  145. Naomi*

    LW, a lot of this frankly seems to boil down to jealousy. You say this employee’s work “just wasn’t that good”, but you also complain that her extra effort and good results were outshining you and your friends. It certainly sounds like she was smart and dedicated, regardless of what degree she had. I think you’re trying to make a case that she’s less deserving so you can justify having sabotaged her, but senior management was right to prioritize high performance over a graduate degree or number of years she had been at this specific company.

    You’ve asked what lesson you’re supposed to have learned. I think there are several, but an important one is: trying to make other people look worse doesn’t actually make you look better.

  146. Former Computer Professional*

    “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing.”

    I am not a lawyer, but I think that depending on what “froze her out” means, it could be considered a constructive dismissal. This is when an employer makes the employment impossible – such as requiring someone to use specific software but refusing them access to a computer – such that if the employee quits, it counts as a termination, as there was no way for the employee to actually complete the job.

    “I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.”

    I’ve seen this kind of thinking in academic departments, as well as similar places like research institutes and libraries. You can have 20 years of experience but if you don’t have a higher degree, you’re not considered “qualified.”

    1. Natalie*

      It likely would be constructive dismissal, but that in and of itself isn’t illegal in the US. It would potentially qualify the former employee for unemployment, except she left for a new job so she obviously wouldn’t be filing for that.

  147. Anon1313*

    The sad thing about this is that it appears that there was no one in the LW’s earlier career that was able to model and enforce proper management style. As others have noted the problems in management style (or lack thereof) are all related to common courtesy and professionalism. The fact that the LW has completely missed out on these makes me wonder if they were trained in a highly dysfunctional office. That would not be an excuse for the behaviour, but it would explain the cluelessness.
    And to the LW, I think being fired is a great chance to really look at the criticisms, and not try to defend yourself. Don’t just take them as insults, look at them and ask: why did they say that? Try to understand what it is they were wanting and compare it to how you were acting. From the sounds of it you take great pride in being in the position you were in, but if you were so great at it, how did you fall short? I think asking yourself questions and being open to the possibility that even with a master’s degree you still have things to learn you might be able to learn about yourself and become a better employee and manager. Please remember, when people point out things that you are doing wrong they are not saying that you are the worst human ever, they are just saying that you need to do things in a different way. I believe that everyone would rather you realize and learn from your mistakes than see you fail.

  148. Brogrammer*

    Did Travis Kalanick write this letter?

    Kidding. Mostly.

    But I think this gives us a great window into how startup cultures can get so toxic. When management is more interested in being friends and having fun than actually getting work done, to the point of penalizing employees for doing good work (!), there’s just no way the workplace can be functional. Any success in that environment happens despite management, not because of it.

    Blatant ageism, insubordination, retaliation against employees who report harassment (no, you don’t get “credit” for not actually retaliating when the only reason you didn’t retaliate was that you didn’t know who reported it)… in all honesty OP, I’m impressed you’re willing to admit to everything you did. I hope that you learn from your mistakes sooner rather than later.

  149. Ellen N.*

    I won’t comment on anything except the beer runs, because so many here have expressed what I would say.

    It appears that the original poster doesn’t understand why the beer runs are a fire-able offense. It is not stated whether anyone was driving back to the office after drinking beer or if the beer drinkers drove home after work. If anyone was driving while impaired from a company sanctioned event; the company faces a giant liability risk. Also, from the original letter it appears that any employee who didn’t go on the beer runs would be considered to not be part of the team and apparently punished in many ways. It is never a good idea to require that a coworker consume anything.

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      At my company, we are not allowed to drink while on the clock. It’s that simple. Not in the office (of course), but also not out of the office. There’s no drinking allowed during office hours. So maybe the OP’s company has a rule like that.

  150. Juli G.*

    When you’re a manager, you still HAVE a manager. Without knowing your work, your concerns about morale, developing other team members, etc. could certainly have been valid. So this is where you have discussions with your superiors. “I know you want Jane to be in charge of Project X but Alec is looking to develop his widget skills and Project X would be great for him to do that. What do you think?”

    Nodding your head and then doing whatever you want is not an effective way of dealing with things.

  151. LizB*

    (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)

    I’ve seen this kind of sentiment before, and it’s mostly been from people I grew up with who were raised with a very specific perspective on what Being Successful means:
    1) Take as many AP classes as possible in high school.
    2) Get into an Ivy League college and get your Bachelor’s.
    3) Get a Master’s from the top university in your field.
    4) Congratulations! You are now a Successful Adult. Jobs and accolades should fall into your lap regardless of how little effort you put into getting them.

    Except this isn’t actually how the world works. The above steps are certainly one path to success… but there are so, so many other paths to success that can be taken. Heck, there are so many other definitions of what that ultimate success looks like! Most of the people I know who used to think like this LW have grown to understand that the four-step plan their parents laid out for them is not the One True Way. Those who haven’t figured that out yet are mostly fairly unhappy.

    1. Woahh*

      Yes, this. It took me a little to realize it doesn’t work that way. In some ways I think our education system prepares us for it to work that way, and it can be a crappy reality check. About six months into my first professional job it clicked, and I became SO much happier!

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      YES. When I was getting close to the end of college, the attitude among my peers was very much “Oh, you’re not going straight on to grad school? What’s wrong?”

      This was in late 2007/early 2008. I think in the long run I made the better decision not taking on loads more student debt as the economy came crashing down. The few of my college friends I’m still in any kind of touch with either dropped their grad school dreams when the economy bottomed out or are struggling with six figures of debt and not much to show for it.

  152. Anna*

    What I hope is that since this update was written fresh off being fired, that the OP will have some time to consider the reasons HR gave them for letting them go and see their role in how this worked out.

  153. Rick Tq*

    Wow, OP. You really don’t get how badly you failed….

    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. You were insubordinate refused to follow your manager’s directions.

    I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director and client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me. I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave., You ignored the feedback from your internal AND external clients because she made you and your team of slackers look bad.

    During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five. You were grossly insubordinate, refused to follow directions from senior staff and tried to sabotage her career progression out of jealousy.

    HR told me the brewery beer runs were against company policy and I should have stopped the SnapChats, especially those who had it on their company phones. You failed to maintain company policies and maintain an appropriate work environment.

    In your own words By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name.

    You and your buddies were removed to excise a cancer from that company, you were a team of slackers who didn’t want to “go above and beyond” to meet the business’s needs and were willing to hound a high performer out of the company to protect your lazy ways.

    You violated the MOST important rule: don’t cost the business money.

  154. BePositive*

    I’m silently screaming. Just because Alison is a manager the OP expectation she give the OP some credit. Managers (at least to me) should use each other as sounding boards to gain insight on different ways to solve issues. OP, you need to read and listen to many of the advice you were given. You will be working or managing staff that you may not like personally but it’s a must you respect them professionally.

  155. Anon today...and tomorrow*

    Letter-writer (LW): Because I disagree with your points and I don’t want to constantly defend myself. My ex employee made me look bad and I thought that as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager.

    Based on this part of the emailed exchange I’m fairly certain that the LW is being consistently told that her behavior was wrong all around. She’s looking for someone to agree with her and likely she’s not finding many (if any at all) who agree that she’s the victim here. LW, it’s regrettable that you’re not yet grasping the fact that the only person who made you look bad in any of this is you. I hope you’ll be able to do that soon and that one day you’re able to look back on this moment with a sense of wonderment and awe – wonderment that you ever thought it was okay to act this way and awe at how far you’ve come since this moment. :)

    1. Bow Ties Are Cool*

      She is probably getting some validation from her now-former team, since the good times have abruptly ended for them, too, and the despised ex-coworker makes just as good a scapegoat for them as she does for LW.

  156. KerryJunior*

    Like Alison initially said, I have a lot of doubts about whether this was real. It actually sounds like it was written by someone who worked on the team and doesn’t like the manager – it has tons of compliments for the employee who left and tons of insults about the manager. People tend not to see themselves as the villains in situations.

    Saying things like “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like”….quietness, sure. But do many people actually say someone had an ability to do something well and imply that it’s a bad thing? They’d say that she “created unnecessary documentation in an attempt to show-off”

    Maybe this is wishful thinking. I’d hope if someone was that self-aware about how/why their opinions were formed, they’d be self-aware enough to act more appropriately.

  157. kiwidg1*

    I am grateful that we had this followup printed. I read AAM to learn and this one is worth its weight in column space. I’m appalled that this ex-manager sees nothing wrong with her actions (and kudos for Allison questioning whether this letter was genuine).

    This letter might even eclipse the interns who petitioned to change the dress code in my “do people really do this” book.

  158. SuspectedDragon*

    Eeek. Having been on the other side of a (much, MUCH) milder version of this situation, I want to extend all the jedi hugs to your former employee. Dysfunctional workplaces are so stressful and draining and I hope she’s found a place where she can thrive.

    LW, if I had one piece of advice for you, it would be that sometimes you have to work with people you don’t like. You’re allowed to not like people! But in a professional environment you have to put your work first (I’m speaking of cases where you just don’t gel with someone – if someone is harassing you or making you uncomfortable then that’s another matter. But in this particular case, you weren’t the one being harassed). Especially being in a position of leadership, where your staff is looking to you to set the tone, it’s imperative to treat people kindly and fairly. And strong team cohesion doesn’t always spring fully formed from the Earth. Sometimes you have to cultivate it, nurture it. Give your staff chances to find their common interests – and it’s fine if the only thing they have in common is “we wanna knock this sales goal out of the park.”

    1. Xarcady*

      I agree. You can work with people you don’t like, if everyone involved acts and behaves in a professional manner. You don’t have to be friends with someone to work well with them.

      It’s when people start acting unprofessionally–gossiping, backbiting, deliberately withholding needed information, spreading rumors–that working with those you don’t like gets rough.

      I sometimes think the people at CurrentJob are too nice–we are all smiley and people hold doors for each other and everyone is so polite and cheerful All The Time. But I’ve also worked where a jealous co-worker did her best to sabotage just about everything I did, including lying to the owner about me. I’ll take the smiles.

      1. SuspectedDragon*

        Exactly. And it’s pretty clear from the letter that the employee wasn’t being malicious – just quiet, focused on work, and at the worst a bit standoffish. It was her coworkers who delved into the gossiping and bullying.

  159. Atomic Orange*

    Wow. I’m actually flabbergasted. Not sure what I can say here that hasn’t already been said. I think the OP is inexperienced and misguided about what management is. Being a manager isn’t just hanging out with your mates and taking care of ‘your people’. You have to be fair, be inclusive, be a leader, and think about how your actions reflect upon your company. You’ve failed on all of these fronts and cost your company a strategic investment. They’re without a doubt fireable offensives for a manager. I hope you can reflect on this and adjust your thinking in the future.

  160. Stephanie the Great*

    I’m just honestly stunned and flabbergasted by the apparent lack of awareness the LW demonstrates. There is no self-reflection or critical thought given to any of the points the many intelligent and insightful commenters (and Alison herself!!) have made. This response demonstrates a self-absorption and immaturity I cannot begin to fathom. I am hoping the LW is just suffering from a particularly bad brain day, and maybe with time can see this from the different perspectives demonstrated here and on the last post.

    LW, if you are reading, I beg you to please take a moment and try something. It’s a trick my therapist taught me. Basically, you take your narrative and then flip it by saying — “But what if that isn’t true?” And then take another look at the story from that point of view.

    For example: you think you were doing the right thing by giving projects to your team that were meant for ex-employee. But what if that isn’t true? Consider maybe that it wasn’t the right thing to give the project to your other team member rather than the ex-employee. And now answer the question, why wasn’t it the right thing?

    Here are some possibilities: Because you overstepped the boundaries of your director, who has the authority to assign work over you — which is insubordination. Because you put what you thought was more important ahead without consulting your supervisor — also insubordination. Because you took an opportunity away from the ex-employee in favor of another employee, and didn’t provide a reason for it to your superior that might have even been swayed, had you asked, or at least would have given you more details on why ex-employee was receiving the assignment and not someone else on the team — which is nepotism as well as insubordination. Because you took the opportunity away simply because you didn’t like the employee it was assigned to — not because someone could do it better, but because you didn’t like her — which is not only unprofessional, it is unkind.

    Now do this for every single assumption, story, and narrative you’ve written out here, and see what you come up with. This tool was given to me to come up with alternatives to the narratives of “Nobody cares about me” and “Nobody will ever love me” and “I am useless.” But I think it can work just as well in this scenario, as long as you are willing to actively give it a shot and engage in some serious self-examination. Because LW, you are going to go nowhere very, very fast in your career if you keep up this line of thinking — and what’s worse is, you’ll think it is everyone’s fault except your own.

    You can be better than this. Open yourself up to the possibility.

    2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Basically, you take your narrative and then flip it by saying — “But what if that isn’t true?” And then take another look at the story from that point of view.

      This gave me chills. Excellent advice, thank you so much for sharing this.

      1. Stephanie the Great*

        It’s weirdly powerful, isn’t it? The first time he said it to me I just kind of sat there in shock, staring at him. I’d never actually thought about it that way. Like, my truth is my truth, isn’t it?! But no, it doesn’t have to be. I mean, in so many situations we often come up with a list of options and think through them and then pick the one that makes the most sense, discarding the rest — and often it isn’t the first thing that comes to mind that you pick. But when it comes to our own stories, we’re so set in going with whatever we’ve told ourselves first. You can go down a rabbit hole of “what is reality” and “what is truth” here, but I digress :) The point is, giving yourself the chance to challenge your stories opens you up to such a wide variety of possibilities and pathways. It’s very freeing.

    3. hotsauceinmybag*

      This is wonderful advice! OP give this a shot. The only thing worse than being 28 and behaving this way is being 58, and so set in your ways that you won’t hear a damn thing anyone tries to tell you. OP you do not have to be that person!

      1. JeanB in NC*

        That is so true! 28 is still very young and she has time to do a course correction now based on the situation and the advice from people who have already been there/done that.

    4. Solidad*

      As a lawyer, anytime a client comes in with something that may result in a hearing, I ask them to work through all possible points of view on the matter. I ask them “What if you are wrong and Johnny is correct, what is he going to say and why?” Most of the time there isn’t one set of evidence that’s a smoking gun. Usually, it’s who presents the most convincing story. Frequently, everyone is “wrong” or there is no 100% clear answer as to what justice would be.

      Humans in general, and Americans in particular, are really pretty bad about seeing things from the POV of others.

      I have a friend who is a famous actor. He’s also one of the most empathetic humans I know. If there’s a group of 10 people who are all in conflict, he can see and understand and feel for everyone.

      You have had the blessing of a very, very good therapist.

      This framing device is useful for therapists, lawyers, and actors. But it’s also one of the things that makes human beings fundamentally different from most other mammals. It’s a shame we don’t use it often enough.

      1. Stephanie the Great*

        Oh yes, my therapist is amazing. We’re actually working on “terminating” therapy now, because I am doing super well, and I’m going to really miss him.

    5. NotPiffany*

      Another possibility:

      The company wanted to expand into a new type/market of insurance, so they hired a known rockstar with loads of experience in that area. Then they assigned her to Letter Writer’s team. Why? Companies don’t typically assign new employees to teams by throwing darts at an org chart, so there must have been a reason. I’m thinking that Letter Writer’s manager wanted to move Letter Writer’s team into that particular type/market. Ex-employee’s presence was supposed to be an *opportunity* for Letter Writer and their team to learn this new market. Unfortunately, Letter Writer (and their team) saw a threat instead. The result? The jobs that Ex-employee was supposed to handle were bungled to the point that not only did the company *not* get to expand into the new market, they *lost* enough existing business that the company fired the whole lot. *With* cause, so depending on where Letter Writer and their former team is located, they may not even be able to apply for unemployment.

  161. bunniferous*

    I admit I have not read other comments yet (but I will, boy, I will…!) but I wanted to say this while it was fresh in my head:

    If the the Original Letter Writer would sit down in a quiet place, with a beer, and read his/her own letter slowly as if it had been written by someone else….I think the issue would be obvious. And if not, if his/her 20-year-older self would step into a Tardis and come back here and read it, I think he/she would slap his/her younger self upside the head and ask what in the Hades were they thinking.

    Without piling on , that firing was absolutely deserved, and I say that just from what he/she wrote since they told on themselves, basically. Hopefully this can be a big wake up call, and they can finally see what it is obvious the bosses and the ex-employee saw more than clearly.

    (But I confess I am hoping it turns out to be fake because it hurts my heart and my brain and all my other parts to think someone was that lacking in insight.)

  162. Spinach Inquisition*

    Please, please tell me the company will contact the (original) ex-employee and offer her a management position now that this LW and her evil team have been purged? I’d love to see her build a group from scratch that fosters the *right* sort of teamwork. This LW should never, ever be allowed near a management position again. In fact, I’d say this person should consider freelancing or consulting so they work alone.

    1. KHB*

      Just because the ex-employee was good at what they hired her for doesn’t mean she’s also good at management. But I do hope she gets either her old job back or a better one.

  163. Zahra*

    Oh boy. Let me take as many points as I can one by one.

    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me.

    Dealing with complaints is part and parcel of being a manager. Your first commitment is to the company. Developing your team often goes hand in hand with that, but not always.

    A good way of managing the situation would include: trying to pair existing team members with her on those assignments so they get exposure to those tasks, talking to your director about how you want to develop your team and giving her all those assignments means that the rest of the team doesn’t have as many opportunities to gain expertise. A good manager looking out for their team advocates for them and gives them opportunities when said opportunities are available.

    Of course, not giving her the assignments meant that her work was not as valuable to you, so it influenced your evaluation. You created the situation where she could not get a glowing evaluation from you.

    When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.

    What the…? Going above and beyond is how one progresses in their career. Showing dedication to the quality of your work is how you get better assignments.

    If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.

    This is very territorial and short-sighted. Years working in an organization does not guarantee better positions or salaries. She had outside experience, a lot of transferable skills was showing dedication to her work, and was bringing a lot of value to the company. Of course, she would have progressed quickly through the ranks. That’s the point of being good at your job.

    I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying?

    It is bullying when anyone going behind their desks on the way to wherever can see it. It is bullying when it transpires in how you treat your coworker.

    No one got hurt except for someone’s feelings and she left the company.

    Except… the company got hurt. You say so yourself:

    By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name.

  164. Mustache Cat*

    Alison, you don’t have to take this out of moderation, but I’m curious. In the email exchange, you expressed doubts that this letter was real. What about the response here made you believe that it was?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I have no way of knowing if any letter I print is real or not. I don’t print things where I actively think they’re fake, but I can never attest with certainty that any letter is genuine. In this case, though, the letter writer’s back and forth with me made me think it’s likely real.

      1. Archie Goodwin*

        I can believe it. The more I read, the more I started hearing in my head the voice of someone I used to work with. I can easily imagine that person ending up in a similar situation for a variety of reasons which I won’t go into here.

        1. Referenceless*

          Yes. I am actually hearing this letter being said by an old retail manager of mine’s voice because she would have acted the same way. Well, except for the Master’s degree bit as she didn’t have one.

        2. Dr. S*

          Oh, I have had students in graduate school who regarded my assignments and evaluations much as Letter Writer regarded the directives and evaluations of her superiors, and were certain they knew better than I did, and I was in the wrong for asserting otherwise. I believe every word.

    2. Rat Racer*

      I don’t doubt that this letter is real, but I can imagine a scenario under which the wronged employee (the one who quit) wrote this letter pretending to be the manager. The paragraph about the wronged employee being too good at her job, her quietness and ability to connect with clients reflected as “showing off”, etc. is the part that planted that idea. After all, if you feel you’ve been wronged at work, it would be nice to get validation by pretending to be your horrible manager on AAM and then receive the unqualified support and outrage on your behalf from thousands of AAM readers.

  165. Chriama*

    What I don’t understand is, OP says she didn’t want the ex-employee and made work uncomfortable so she would leave. But then she says she thinks the employee sabotaged her by reporting the “un-managing” behaviour. Do you not see the contradiction? You admit that you were trying to drive her out, but you say that she damaged your career by her exit interview.

    If I see you stealing at a convenience store and report it, and they call the police and check the security camera and it proves it, I’m not the one who sent you to jail. Your own actions did that.

    I’m genuinely puzzled at the thought that the employee did something wrong by reporting the truth when you yourself admit that you were trying to make her uncomfortable so she’d leave. What would you have done if she went to you first instead of HR? Your goal was to make her leave!

  166. Adam K*

    Hi Letter Writer, the company was absolutely right to fire you and I’m surprised you don’t know why.

    Management above you wanted this person put in this role, and you went against their directives (you even call it “insubordination” yourself).

    Your ex-employee deserved the praise of the sales staff, your director, and client executives BECAUSE she received praise from the sales staff, your director, and client executives. Her work is good BECAUSE the people who judge whether her work is good SAY that her work is good. She developed great sales presentations and connected with every client. She asked for help when needed. She went above and beyond “for no reason”. And your response was to try to make things so unpleasant that she’d leave.

    It’s telling when you say “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.” You don’t get put into roles of more responsibility by just putting in the time. You get those responsibilities by working hard, doing your best, and showing the business that you’re worth it!

    You even say that losing her (which was your intention) has cost the business clients and leverage in the marketplace. And you wonder why you’ve been fired? You hurt the business! On purpose! It may have been harsh to fire your entire team, but it’s understandable if the higher-ups wanted to just clean house and start the team over rather than untangle the toxic environment that you created.

    You feel like a “scapegoat” for the employees reason to leave, while also admitting that you are ACTUALLY the reason for her to leave, and that you were trying to do this in your first paragraph. How embarrassing!

    You and your former team absolutely can not take action against the ex-employee for harming your professional reputation. I’m curious what you’d even try to sue her for… You did much more damage to yourself, to your company in the market, and its reputation – think about whether you’d want the company to take action against you for that, then breathe a sigh of relief that that’s not how it works.

    1. TootsNYC*

      “(you even call it “insubordination” yourself).”

      The OP may have been quoting the accusations / judgments of the HR person and the director.

      Also–if you try to sue for defamation, remember these things:
      -truth is an absolute defense. Nothing she told them was untrue.
      -you have to have a good reputation first in order to claim that someone has damaged it; you guys don’t.

  167. rubyrose*

    My recommendation to LW is that you find a non-management position for now, one where they are not looking to promote to management anytime soon. And since you put a value on education, take a few management classes.
    But wait – I just checked the original post and letters – you have an MBA, right? Do not take courses through a university. Take some seminars that focus on employment law.
    Your company did you a favor by getting you out of a position you could not handle.

  168. Chriama*

    Also, OP – as a sales manager, your number one priority is to increase sales for the business. You do that by cultivating a good team and keeping them happy so they stay, yes, but if you have to choose between keeping an employee happy and increasing sales (assuming all ethical behaviour in both situations) you have to increase sales! As a manager you sometimes have very nice employees who just can’t perform to the needs of the role, so you have to transition them out. Sometimes that means firing them. I’m concerned that you were so preoccupied with keeping your friends happy that you were actually losing business because the people oh assigned the work to weren’t capable of doing it. I hope you remember that prime objective in your positions going forward. Being liked by your employees is not the end goal.

  169. e271828*

    The OP is demonstrating a lack of empathy that is genuinely disturbing. No ability to see anything from management’s point of view. No ability to see anything from client’s point of view. No ability to see anything from employee’s point of view with the exception of the gang she identified with. Active denial that those POVs have importance.

    OP, when you are in any interaction with other people, their responses and perceptions matter at least as much as your own. This is very important if you want to hold a job.

  170. TwinClover*

    I have never commented on here before but this one frustrated me.
    If you are not willing to see even the smallest mistake you may have made means you are not fit to be a manager.
    We expect our staff to take feedback and work and strive to be better. If you can’t do that for yourself, you can’t get staff to do that. Making you and your team not an asset but a hindrance. Bravo to the company for cleaning house!

  171. Mona Lisa Vito*

    I am sorry if this is off-topic and nit-picky, but did I miss somewhere where it was indicated that the OP is a woman? Just pointing out how most commenters are referring to the OP as female when I don’t think it was ever said in the original letter or update. Curious if people are just assuming the poster is female based on their behavior. I’d like to hope not.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I default to “she” whenever gender is unknown, and many commenters have picked it up too. But in this case the OP is indeed a woman.

      2. Artemesia*

        That is interesting. I so heard this as a male voice. If felt so bro to me and felt so much like that kind of culture I have encountered in businesses from time to time when consulting.

        1. RVA Cat*

          I saw it as having more of a ‘mean girls’ vibe.
          Either way, the OP has a set of Holy Hanukkah Balls to think they did nothing wrong!

    3. Jiggs*

      AAM’s default is ‘she’ where no gender is specified, in counterpoint to the usual default of ‘he’.

    4. Justin*

      I made that assumption in the last one. I think many of us assumed she was male, actually, myself included.

      But Alison said that in their email exchanges she had a female name, so no assumptions here.

    5. Gwen Soul*

      On this site is is common to refer to everyone as “she” unless you know otherwise. Just a style choice.

  172. AW*

    By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business under my “mismanagement” and the HR was worried about damage to the brand name. During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because…

    LW, I can’t understand why you think your company should be OK with losing clients, money, leverage, and reputation just because you didn’t like this one employee. In your own words you admit to being insubordinate and disobeying your superiors. Why do you think they should be OK with this?

    Being hostile to this employee hurt the company’s bottom line and even if you can’t understand why treating her poorly was wrong from a moral standpoint, you should be able to understand that companies don’t want to lose money.

    I’m not getting the lesson that I should have learned.

    I think you actually do. The problem is you disagree with it. So what you really need to take away from this is that you don’t have to agree with something to go along with it. You have many years of work ahead of you and you’re going to keep getting instructions from your superiors that you don’t agree with. You’re not going to be friends with everyone you work with. You’re going to be subject to workplace rules you don’t like.

    You can’t fight everything just because it’s not to your exact personal taste.

    Company hire someone you don’t like? Don’t like how work is being assigned? Company has a policy you don’t agree with? Either make a case for changing it with your bosses or do what you’re told. You make it work anyway. You don’t try to rules-lawyer your way around this stuff with “I didn’t fire her, we forced her to quit” or “We were drinking on company time but not on company property”.

  173. Jiggs*

    “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

    That’s the core of your letter right there.

    Your employee:
    – had rave reviews from everyone except you
    – was amazing at connecting with clients and doing presentations
    – admitted by you, went “above and beyond”
    – had years of experience *and* a bachelors’ degree
    – acknowledged your team’s experience by asking questions when she needed to
    – was especially indicated by your manager to be a key role with specific, assigned projects

    Whereas you:
    – downgraded her employee evaluation even though by every objective measure she was doing a great job
    – willfully ignored your manager’s direction on everything from her role to the projects she was assigned
    – allowed your team to gang up on her via social media
    – ignored and allowed your team to ignore her requests for help

    You did everything you could to make her fail, and yet she was doing well in the role by your own admission. Not only did you “un-manage” her until she left, you were openly and happily cruel to her, and you gave others permission to be the same. All because you were concerned with how her capability made you look, and how her path to advancement reflected on you. Because she didn’t “fit in”.

    You have some very deep thinking to do about who you want to be in this world. If you’re thinking of suing someone because you got fired over them telling the absolute truth of your actions, that’s a wake up call. I hope you find clarity and a better path.

    1. De in D.C.*

      Yes, out of everything in that exchange, these were the parts that stuck out to me the most. You had a stellar employee who was good at her job, and being tasked by higher-ups with more complicated tasks, and you intentionally and purposely set her up to fail in the role she was hired for. Your team found her excellent work ethic to be “show-off-like” ?! Perhaps you and your team should evaluate your own work ethic and how you can best contribute to any future company you work for.

      You also said that if the role had panned out, she would have been more senior than you in two years. Isn’t that the goal of any good manager – to elevate all of their employees to the peak of their potential? Having a stellar employee that you recognize and help succeed helps your own career, too.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        It’s not what you want if you’re incredibly insecure. This sounds to me like she didn’t want a subordinate overtaking her.

    2. Tiger Snake*

      Also, OP; you [I]wanted[/I] this co-worker gone. Why did you go the route of being horrible when it was already obvious to you that her time as your employee was temporary?
      – Let this woman do her projects, get high performance reviews
      – Push to your manager that due to her results, she’d be well-suited to promotion to develop a sister team
      – ‘New Coworker’ moves into her management role, and you get you’re team back the way it was.

      If your immediate response to any of that is concern that this would make you, or the rest of your team, look bad (or that she would take over your job); that’s yet another sign that your team as it currently stood wasn’t working and needed help.

    3. DArcy*

      I would venture a guess that the letter writer made up her mind that since Jane “only” had a bachelor’s degree, she couldn’t possibly be legitimately doing as good a job as the “more qualified” members of her team. Therefore, her glowing evaluations had to be because she was socializing with the clients and padding her actually-mediocre work with superficial “above and beyond” brownie points. Also therefore, she clearly didn’t deserve the plum assignments and opportunity for promotion that upper management was unfairly giving her, and the letter writer was just “setting things straight” by reassigning the work.

      It is genuinely amazing how strongly a person can sincerely rationalize objectively outrageous behavior by starting with something they want very badly to believe and letting themself work everything they see into pretzels around that.

  174. Susanne*

    This comment stands out to me: “Ok but can I still get some credit for NOT doing it though? Or not firing ex employee? Or for looking out for my team and giving them opportunities? Isn’t that what managers do?”

    The problem is with your definition of team. You set the definition of “team” in stone and treated her as an interloper. Good managers work to integrate new employees to form a cohesive team. You didn’t view developing her as “developing a team”; you saw her as a hindrance to what you had already deemed “your team.” That’s very, very poor management.

    And really, the brewery runs – that’s so lower-class white trash. (I don’t care how much money you make or what degrees you have or what race/ethnicity you are; it’s low-class.) People of sophistication don’t need to drink alcohol to bond.

    1. Anonymous One*

      Your comment is mostly on point, but I did a literal Tex Avery style double-take at your last paragraph. This may be a regional difference, but I’m so perplexed by the assertion that going to a brewery is “low-class”. Where I live, the brewery scene is officially A Thing. Like, there’s practically one on every corner, and many of them are actually really fancy.

      Also, equating “low-class” with “wrong and bad” is not cool.

    2. Jadelyn*

      Look, the OP was an awful manager who did some really crappy things. But can we maybe not with the classism and the “white trash” stuff? Lots of people choose to hold social events in venues involving alcohol. You’re not morally superior because you don’t. It’s not professional or appropriate to do that when you’re talking about a workplace situation, which is legit to point out in this instance, but this idea that “people of sophistication” would ~never do something so base as mingle with the peasantry who drink~ is just ridiculous BS and utterly unhelpful to the conversation here.

    3. PollyQ*

      “People of sophistication don’t need to drink alcohol to bond.”

      People of sophistication don’t need to use class-based insults to put down other people who have different interests from theirs.

      Personally, I’ve never been much of a drinker, but throughout human history, people from all walks of life have drunk alcohol together, so to decide that it’s “low-class” is nothing more than prejudice.

    4. YawningDodo*

      Adding a fourth objection to your final paragraph — you were so on point with the first two that frankly it’s really weird for your comment to devolve into it.

      1. There is nothing morally or intellectually inferior about enjoying a good brewery.
      2. There is nothing morally or intellectually inferior about being “lower-class white trash.” Get over yourself.

    5. Solidad*

      Wow! Anyone trying to make a point about bias should not use the term trash to describe anyone.

      No, it’s not as bad as racist language. It’s still inherently classist and dehumanizing.

      Please consider removing it from your vocabulary.

      Poor, underprivileged, etc. are all fine terms.

      I think you have some unexamined biases of your own.

  175. Michelle*

    I’m shocked that the OP thinks she did nothing wrong and that she and her team should pursue some type of action against the ex-employee. OP has admitted to not giving ex-employee the assignments the director instructed her to, admitted to not wanting her on the team, admitted to trying to make her so uncomfortable she would leave, insulted her level of education and complained that because she did such good work and went above and beyond, she was making OP & the other team members look bad. OP was also mad that the ex-employee was able to connect to clients and that she would be higher up than the OP in less time than it took OP.

    Most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters I’m going to give you props for staying in school and getting a masters. Paraphrasing something I heard on a TV show “You are not as smart as you think you are”. Had you followed your director’s orders and treated this employee fairly, you and your team/friends might still have a job. You did her so wrong, and you admit it, but you don’t seem to have learned from it. Your company lost business because of you and your team/friends unprofessional actions and bullying behavior towards this woman.

    Honestly, you and your team/friends deserved to be fired for how you treated this woman.

    1. YawningDodo*

      Honestly, comments like yours make me even sadder for the woman the Letter Writer chased out. From the sound of it, she was a high performer who was brought in for a very specific role with a clear path to advancement, and the Letter Writer spent this entire time making this woman’s work life miserable and cheating her out of the opportunities this position should have afforded her. It’s incredibly cruel and I hope that the company reaches out to the Letter Writer’s victim to try to make amends.

      1. Michelle*

        I hope the company reaches out to the ex-employee as well. I just can’t imagine being discriminated against because I was great employee. It seems as though the LW has not learned what she is so, so wrong.

  176. Foreign Octopus*

    Does anyone know (or did I miss it) how long the brewery runs were happening for? And also how higher management apparently missed this situation for 5 years?

    1. Jaguar*

      Yeah, as I’ve been working through this in my head (and through making posts), I’m becoming more baffled that the LW’s manager let this go on so long. It sounds like the problems might not only begin with the LW and go down.

    2. The IT Manager*

      I don’t see the brewery runs as the worst thing in the letter. OTOH “brewery run” can mean a wide range of activities.

      I took it to be a once a week long lunch at a brew pub where the participants may have a had a drink (or two). That doesn’t strike me as a huge problem. That would be allowed at everywhere I worked except a single drink limit would be safer. But we did a lot of longer than normal lunches with the office less than once a week or so because that was team building. Or leaving work slightly early on Friday and going to a bar. In all these cases, though, everyone was invited.

      Of course given all of the other unprofessional activities that took place in the LW’s office, it could have been a two hour series of keg stand, but I imagine it would have been obvious to upper management if they returned noticeably drunk once a week.

      1. Jessica*

        The kicker about the brewery runs wasn’t just about the beer-drinking, it was that the entire team basically ditched her every Friday to go drink beer and network, and obligated her to cover for them while they were out of the office. They never included her or even asked her if she wanted to join.

        1. The IT Manager*

          True. I am not defending the LW’s office. That was bad. However that’s how the brewery runs could missed for 5 years; they are not the two hour series of keg stands some people are picturing.

    3. TootsNYC*

      or how the OP was able to downgrade this woman’s review, despite all the comments from all the other people about how great she was?

      I’m kind of at a loss for how that got past HR, the director, and the woman herself (and with that dotted-line, I would expect that the woman would have been bringing this up).

      Though, maybe this aspect was part of those frequent conversations with the director–talk about missing cues!

  177. Amy*

    I’m going to assume that you’ve been in a toxic environment for so long that you just have no understanding of how things are supposed to work. I hope that’s the case, and that you take this opportunity to recalibrate your ‘normal’. Here are some specific things I noticed to get you started:

    1) Goode managers do look out for their team and give them opportunities–their WHOLE team, not just their friends or the people who have been there longest. That would include this woman. They do not place their team members at a disadvantage just because they don’t like them, and they don’t promote a given team member just because they’re friends. That’s favoritism, which is considered poor management.

    2) Good managers also give opportunities in a way that makes sense based on the skills and roles a person has. That means that when someone is brought on in a role that specifically handles special projects, and there is a special project to assign, generally that person should be your go-to.
    It also means that you need to assess your team members’ abilities accurately! When someone has years of experience, is developing fantastic presentations, is connecting well with clients, and is receiving high praise from people all over the company (including the director!), that person is probably very good at their job, and should be doing high-level work. (Note that I didn’t mention education level here. Sure, a masters degree is one way to develop skills–but in many fields, having years of experience is equivalent, or worth even more, than having a higher degree. Not having a masters does not make you less driven or smart, and it’s very weird that you think it does.)
    So, when you have a very competent person who was assigned by your director to do special projects, and you instead have that person do entry-level work and switch the special projects to your less-experienced, less-competent team members, that’s mismanagement. It’s poor use of your competent employee’s time and skills (since a less skilled employee can do those basic tasks successfully), and it jeopardizes the success of the projects (since you’re assigning them to less skilled team members who may not be able to handle them successfully).

    3) Anything you can even remotely describe as ‘un-managing’ is also bound to be mismanagement. That literally means not managing–which means you’re not doing your job. If that’s your go-to way of handling literally anything, it shouldn’t be a surprise that you’re being fired for mismanagement. Good managers manage their teams–they don’t try to find ways to avoid managing.

    4) Generally, not following company policy is bad management. When your company has a policy on alcohol during business hours, you should obey that policy, not try to find loopholes for your team (e.g. ‘but it was off campus!’). When your director gives you clear instructions, you should work within those instructions, not be insubordinate. When you have a team member you don’t like, you should be politely professional, not make snide comments behind their back. I can’t even call this poor management–it’s straight up unprofessional, period, not specific to managers (though being a manager may make it worse, since it could be read as encouraging insubordination and unprofessional behavior across your team, rather than just being an individual problem). Anyone would be reprimanded for accruing a series of violations like these.

    5) Perhaps most importantly, anything that opens the company up to legal consequences is bad management. Creating a hostile work environment–which, freezing her out with the full intent of getting her to quit is definitely hostile–opens the company up to potential legal consequences. Retaliating when an HR complaint is made–which you did, you’re allowed to feel angry (you can feel however you want) but you’re not allowed to act on it or let it affect your work or interactions with your team members–opens the company up to potential legal consequences. Causing potential lawsuits is one of the most clear-cut ways you can get fired, because it makes you a serious liability for the company both financially and in terms of reputation. I don’t know how to be clearer than that.

  178. CatCat*

    LW: Ok but can I still get some credit for NOT doing it though? Or not firing ex employee? Or for looking out for my team and giving them opportunities? Isn’t that what managers do?

    LW, I think you have a deep-level misunderstanding about your behavior here and what managers do. You were fired, lost your company resources and opportunities, and your entire team was fired. That’s what you get credit for. I don’t know what led you to think anything about the situation was okay as a manager. Is this how past managers you’ve had behaved so you think it is normal/appropriate?

    As you seek new employment, it may be best to look for non-management roles. First, I think it will be a serious challenge for you to find one with what happened here so you may have more luck if you keep your job search away from management. Second, it will give you time to move on from your current feelings about being fired and what led to it so maybe, at some point, you will be able to look at all the advice given with an open mind so you can learn from what went wrong and set goals toward improvement in the future.

  179. Swabby*

    Wow. This is… awful. I can’t imagine being so disliked because of my age, dedication to work and ability to work with clients that my manager would intentionally try to sabotage my career and make me so unwelcome and uncomfortable that I would want to leave. The thing that struck me most is the OP said they could have fired her at any time, but they weren’t that mean. Sorry, but the things that were done to her were mean and I really, really hope OP take Allison’s advice because if they continue on this way in the working world, I don’t think this is the last job they will be fired from.

    1. TootsNYC*

      “The thing that struck me most is the OP said they could have fired her at any time, ”

      I think the OP knows that this is incorrect.

      I’m absolutely certain that had the OP tried to fire this woman, her director and HR would have been in strong opposition. As would all the other stakeholders who had given her glowing words for her review.

      That’s why she had to be mean.

  180. Alex*

    Like everyone else, I’m flabbergasted that this LW still thinks she was the one wronged–and that the departing employee was someone who wronged her.
    So, let’s get this straight:

    The employee who quit:
    Was identified by senior management as someone who should do high-level work
    Was good at connecting to clients
    Was good at giving presentations
    Had a lot of knowledge about the work
    Gave an honest assesment of the work environment upon leaving (LW does not actually deny any of the accusations, right?)

    LW:
    Purposefully ignored senior management’s direction to assign tasks to employee
    Unilaterally decided that her favorite reports should get choice work assignments because she liked them best, rather then they were the best person for the job
    Actively tried to make a good employee unhappy by creating a hostile work environment
    Caused the company to lose clients due forcing a key employee out
    Encouraged her team to drink alcohol during work hours

    LW, you are 100% at fault for every single thing that occurred here. It all started with you and your actions. If you feel that every employee who is conscientious and does a good job instead of partying at work is a personal offense to you, you are going to have some very serious problems in any workplace you ever encounter. Maybe in high school it was cool to skip classes and do the least amount of work possible, because in high school things like the ability to party, drink, and hang out with friends are seen as the most important thing. That really should have ended in college, but you seem to still be in that mindset. Grown-ups do not value those things over and above real responsibilities, and it will be very difficult for you to retain this set of values and succeed in another job, especially a management job.

  181. TootsNYC*

    I mentioned this is another comment, but I’ve realized I was more right than I knew, and I want to expand on it.

    OP, I think you were pushed around by your team a little.
    Certainly the balance of power was off. You were not separate enough from your team.
    But the more I read through your letter, the more I am coming to believe that they were pushing you around and being tremendously unfair to you. You were weak, so they were able to–and that it totally on you. You were lousy at the main task of being a manager.

    But they were NOT treating YOU well.

    A good manager is like a good mom, sometimes (and bad managers can be like bad moms).

    It’s a parent’s job to make their kid cry. They cannot give their kid everything the kid wants.
    The kid can’t keep watching TV; it’s time to leave for school.
    The kid can’t eat candy; there’s no nutrition in it.
    The kid doesn’t get to run the lawn mower—he’s not old enough yet to do a good job, and the parent doesn’t have time to do it over.

    Look at these sentences from your post where you indicate that the balance of power is off, and learn for the future:

    I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me. 

    So they would complain to you–so badly that you felt you needed to go against the direct instructions of your director in order to make them happy.

    My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.
    Again, they are complaining to you. (about someone else’s actual acknowledged abilities–how dare she be good at her job? That should have been an immediate alarm about how good they were willing to be at their jobs. )

    she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.

    She could only make your team members look bad—when an employee does a good job, the manager looks good, so she was making YOU look good. The only people who would look bad are your lazy beer-run employees.

    (and oh my goodness, complaining that she’s going above and beyond “for no reason”–again, this would set off alarm bells for a manager who is focused on meeting the company’s goals, and not on meeting their staffers’ goals)

    My team and I had worked together for 5-6 years so I knew them, their work and their personalities better than anyone else so I took what they said with more seriousness

    I would bet that they knew this, and took advantage of it. They already knew you, they were chums with you, and they leaned on this. (Why? Because they were lazy, and she made them look bad because she was good)

     I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team. 

    My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.

    You need to cease all contact with those people immediately. THEY don’t have YOUR back.
    And they absolutely do NOT have any knowledge of work norms or propriety.

    Look at what you’ve said about them:
    -They think people who have actual abilities (they and you have acknowledged that she had these abilities) are show-offs.
    -They see her go above and beyond, and complain because they don’t want to look bad in comparison. (and I would bet she isn’t doing that much more than a really good job) Their solution is to trash her, not to up their own game.

    -They simultaneously think she’s stupid and incredibly capable. They won’t help her because they think she’s too good to need help, even if she has specifically requested it–but they also think she’s not smart because she doesn’t have a degree. Therefore, their ability to do basic logic is completely flawed.
    -They are mean and evil enough to mock people on Snapchat–I don’t care if she never saw it (and she knew of it, you have to be sure). That’s proof of the vileness, selfishness, and immaturity of their character.

    You will never figure out what lessons to learn from this until you get away from these people.
    They have already actively hurt you. Don’t let them continue.

    1. TootsNYC*

      also, let me say this..

      You have to choose between two employees–which one should you “make happy,” which one should you try to retain?

      Employee A:
      -complains that someone is making them look bad by doing a good job and going above and beyond
      -complains that someone’s ability to do their job particularly well is “show-off-y.”

      Employee B;
      -goes above and beyond
      -does their job particularly well

      This should be a no-brainer.
      This is the fundamental part of being a manager. Identifying skill and ability, and retaining it.

      You actively drove it out, in favor of complainers who didn’t want to be held to a higher standard.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      I disagree – as a manager, the OP has the power and tools to respond to complaint and bad behavior. Even if the employees were pushing her buttons, she has the position and *obligation* to require good decisions and professional behavior. Instead, she took *active* actions to undermine the employee.
      1) Team complains New Employee is getting the good assignments
      a) Good answer: “collaborate with New Employee and learn why’
      b) Bad answer: “yeah, team, that really sucks but I can’t do anything about it because Bosses
      c) *Worst* answer: “oh, let’s undermine Bosses *and* productivity and give this to someone who is not the best at it, so that we lose business!”

      2) Team denigrates New Employee for clothes / weight / too quiet / too competent
      a) Good answer: “Stop. Now. If you don’t, PIP or firing. Here’s the skills New Employee brings, you will be a better employee if you partner with her instead of insult her.”
      b) Bad answer: “Oh, did that hurt her widdle feelings?”
      c) *Worst* answer: “Oh, did that hurt her widdle feelings? Let me find out who tattled so I can get rid of them, and their little dog too!” (Wizard of Oz, Wicked Witch of the West reference)

      Someone is not ready to be a manager if they can’t stand up to people over whom they have significant power, but in every case, OP chose the *worst* response available to her, supporting her team’s bad behaviors. That’s beyond not ready to be a manager, and it is totally on her.

  182. Rachel Schachter*

    “Smart” enough to get Master’s Degrees? Hopefully, the LW will take some time to examine her own privilege. Many incredibly bright people are denied the opportunity to pursue higher education not because they aren’t “smart” enough, but because they do not come from privileged backgrounds. Many people were fortunate enough to have their tuition paid for by their families, or through grants and scholarships, or were able to take on student debt because they were fortunate enough to have free room and board thanks to generous friends or family. Many others are not so lucky, and had to begin working straight out of high school– or sometimes even earlier– to support themselves and their families, or couldn’t pursue higher education due to myriad other extenuating circumstances. To insinuate that this is only a matter of intelligence is shameful.

    1. DArcy*

      I had that financial privilege, and my higher education career *still* got cut off by mental health issues that ended up being a little beyond the scope of campus counseling. That’s not a problem with me being /not smart/, it’s a problem with me being transgender and having gender dysphoria related depression.

  183. nicolefromqueens*

    “most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters”

    My jaw dropped right here. No, the correct adjective is “privileged.”

    1. Not So NewReader*

      There are different types of “smarts”.

      My husband used to say, “In the city you can ask a police officer for directions if you are lost. In rural areas, with no one for 50 miles, you have to figure out on your own how to get yourself Unlost.” We are all smart about what is most familiar to us, something unfamiliar, not so much.

      The truly smart people gather folks of all different backgrounds around them. Everyone is a resource, everyone has something to offer that is uniquely theirs.

      OP, read AAM for a year. Then come back and tell us what you think about what you have learned here on AAM verses what you learned in school.

    2. many bells down*

      MOST of us. So that means LW had other people on the team that had “only” a bachelor’s. Or less, even? And yet somehow it was only a problem for this single employee?

  184. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

    Ok, lots here.

    First–You were in the wrong here. Very clearly in the wrong. Most commenters have covered that. A few comments as far as managing:

    1) Find yourself a few management books (Alison has one but I’ve not read it) and read them. Some of them will have useful examples and techniques. See how you’d react in those situations.

    2) If you don’t read AAM regularly, do so. Especially read more of the open threads–that will show you a variety of people and situations (good and bad management).

    3) un-managing is not a useful strategy. If you need someone to leave, you need to figure out how to manage them out (talk to your boss if need be). If you don’t feel you can manage them out, then you need to evaluate if the behavior/issue is something that needs to be addressed or just a personal issue. There’s also the possiblity of the person being “unfirable” (boss’ son or something), but at that point you’ll want to figure out if it’s worth leaving.

    Professionally, you will work with a LOT of people you don’t care for–it’s a matter of knowing when it matters to the job.

    4) Defying your boss repeatedly is a good way to get shown the door quickly. For this one, I don’t think they were coaching you enough, really. They should have stepped in after you reassigned projects and changed her evaluation. They probably didn’t realize what sort of issue they had until the person left. If you have this many issues with your boss, again, you need to determine if you can continue to work where you are.

    5) When you have your next job interviews, absolutely do not explain this the way you explained it to Alison . To be frank, it sounds horrifying. As an interviewer I would take it as “I know better than my boss and I do what I want at work. I don’t understand why that’s a problem.”

    Even if you don’t believe you were wrong, aim for something professional-sounding. Others here are better at it than I, but maybe something like, “My manager and I had a disagreement about management styles for the department. Management felt the best way to help the abilities of the department was new hires. I felt that managing of a department should run like X, with new additions assessed on their own merits and assigned appropriate work. Management wanted the change more quickly than I was comfortable progressing at the time. I’ve learned that if I have concerns regarding the management strategy I’ve learned to bring them up much earlier, so that issues can be addressed constructively.” That deflects a bit and focuses on your management style. You may want to think of a way to explain what happened and run it by someone not-related and not in your friends group (skewed data). Unemployment office may help there.

    Finally, as a mental exercise: If the person you forced out wrote to Alison, what do you think she would say? Would some of the words be similar to yours? The “I don’t know what I did wrong” and “They are punishing me” lines, at least (though she probably wouldn’t use punish). She probably feels the same way about what you did as how you feel about your boss letting you go. And you’ve stated no work-related actions she’s done that would warrant the same result you had (termination). From what you have stated, she’s not violated anything in the employee handbook, while you’ve probably done at least 3 strikes’ worth (I saw drinking, snap-chat harassment, potential retaliation, and repeated insubordination).

    Best of luck to you and I hope things work out.

    1. Amy*

      Re: phrasing this for future job interviews: Frankly, this situation went so far wrong that I don’t think you can explain it in a positive (or even neutral) light. If you insist on trying, ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs has great phrasings for making it sound not-terrible…but you have to assume that they’ll talk to your ex-employer, and that your ex-employer will give a description that at least somewhat features the main reasons you were fired (full-out insubordination, pretty extreme mismanagement, lost sales, etc.).

      If you do seek management positions, I think you’ll do better by owning that you messed up to a greater degree than this, and explaining what you learned from it and how you would act now in a similar situation. But I don’t think you’re going to be successful finding management positions with this on your record, at least not right away, no matter how you explain it. In your shoes, I’d look for a non-management position where you can rebuild your reputation and recalibrate your sense of professional norms. Maybe in a few years, when you’ve had time to do those things, you’ll get another shot at management.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I agree, OP, I actually think it’s salvageable to say, “it turns out management wasn’t for me, and that was the source of my problems at my past job – I want to get back into jobs that use my skills in (whatever your past experience supports – sales, marketing, comms).” If you want to get back into management – and I’m not saying you have to do that, a lot of people find that they are happiest and most productive when they’re not managing a team – you can work up to that again. I think employers are fairly sympathetic to “my problem was X, and I learned a lot,” when X is not part of the job they’re hiring for.

        1. Amy*

          This is exactly what I was thinking! OP, I think you could have success applying for a non-managerial role if they said something like, “My last job was as a manager, and I didn’t do well in that role. As a result, I realized that management isn’t the right path for me right now; maybe I can consider it again in the future when I have more experience, but right now I want to focus on building skills in XYZ areas. That’s why I’m really excited about this position, since it would let me really dig into those things.” Whereas I don’t think there’s a way to frame this situation positively and say you’re ready for another management role without coming off as either clueless about why you were fired, or trying to downplay/cover up the circumstances.

          1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

            Both of those sound fantastic! Much better than mine.

            Yes, I should have said that I wouldn’t go back for a management role any time soon (if at all). If nothing else, it allows you to get a good view of management at a different company, which would be helpful. Then you can apply for your job after that with the things you’ve learned being on both sides of the trenches, the lessons you’ve learned from this job, and how you’d change what you did if given another opportunity.

  185. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

    One of the major things that stuck out to me (and there was so much!) was the “it’s not bullying if someone can’t see it.” To the LW, I hope you realize that just because the employee wasn’t able to see these messages, it created a culture of bullying on your team and that’s not normal in a workplace/anywhere in adult life. The fact that someone thinks it’s ok to send photos of another person without their consent is a major issue. If someone can read a room, it’s not hard to know when people are talking about you and you are not welcome. The idea that you would have to come to work for 8 hours and always feel uncomfortable is just awful. I think there a lot of great comments today and I hope you can read them and see that maybe there is a better way to approach this situation and situations in the future.

    I also hope you drop this whole quest with your former teammates as it will not help you or them to drag this out. The best thing you can do as their former manager is to own up to the culture you created and encourage them to change their behavior now. It was all “normal” and fit in with the team dynamic when you were on a team together but now that you all will have new jobs that aren’t together, no one wants someone who is OK with those behaviors on their team.

    1. Kathleen Adams*

      All together now: Wow. Just wow.

      I found nearly every thought expressed by the OP truly disturbing, but there were three things I found most jaw-dropping. First was the cognitive disconnect that allowed the OP to say about the ex-coworker that “Her work just wasn’t that good to me” in one sentence and then just a couple of sentences later that the ex-CW could “develop sales presentations and connect with each client” very effectively and that she was also “always going above and beyond for no reason.”Don’t those sentences contradict each other? How can someone’s work be at one and the same time “not that good” but also, well, good enough to be “show-offy” and “above and beyond for no reason”?

      Second was her repeated and flagrant insubordination – and how she really seems to feel that this shouldn’t be a big deal because…because she knows her team better than anybody? (Does that mean she also thinks she knows the business of the company better than anybody?) And because catering to her team was more important than doing things the way her boss said to? E.g.: “Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me.” And even though her boss said ex-CW was supposed to have functioned as a consultant, “I used her as an associate so it didn’t make waves with the rest of the team.” So she in effect demoted this woman all on her own authority? Did I get that right? Who thinks that’s a normal, business-as-usual thing? Who can possibly think this isn’t a fireable offense?

      But the worst thing, as you pointed out, Volunteer Coordinator, was the casual way she admitted to repeated harassment and belitting and isolating this woman – by her team but also by the OP herself. As though this is normal. As though this is OK. As though – and this is the part that really gets me – as though this is good management.

      I’ve had lots of bosses in my time, some good, some not good. But this doesn’t sound like a bad boss, and this doesn’t sound like a department of 20-somethings. It sounds like a high school clique. Heck, it sounds like a junior high clique, and a pretty dang mean one. Who but a silly, jealous kid would say something like “I also thought her years of experience were irrelevant”?

  186. Bostonian*

    My jaw is on the floor.

    I made so many “oh my god” noises and gasps that one of my coworkers came over and asked if I was OK.

    This is textbook bad management. OP wants credit for not firing the person she didn’t like, but what she did was way worse. If MULTIPLE people above you say this person does good work, but you don’t see it… and this is also someone you ADMIT you don’t like… it’s pretty obvious that you completely mismanaged this person based on the fact that she wasn’t your friend.

    Alison makes a very valid point that retaliation for reporting harassment puts the company at legal risk. They had no choice but to fire OP.

    And that’s not even getting into the total lack of reasonable thinking with these zingers:
    -Thinking Alison would side with her because she’s a manager
    -Thinking only people who have masters in her field (or in general?) are smart

  187. Undine*

    tl;dr:
    A job is not a party, and managing people is not about helping everyone have a good time and making yourself popular. If you don’t make money for the company and you don’t support your bosses, you will lose your job.

    ——————–

    “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing.”

    Other people have picked up on this, but I wanted to add, there is never a reason to freeze someone out instead of firing them. If she is a bad employee, you need to start a PIP. If she is a mediocre employee, you need to set goals, coach her, or suggest ways she can get more training for herself; then if she still can’t do the job to your satisfaction, start a PIP. If she is a good employee, but you don’t like her or feel threatened by her or feel she is some kind of favorite, you need to either listen to your own managers and give the support they tell you to, or go to management and say you don’t feel you can manage that person fairly. What you can’t do as a manager is ignore your own managers, sabotage their plans in putting the person there, and do everything the way you want because you know your team.

    What’s more, if someone deserves firing, you don’t get any credit for not firing them. If someone doesn’t deserve firing, you don’t get credit for treating them super badly in the hopes they will quit. If someone doesn’t deserve firing and you feel you can’t manage them appropriately, you really don’t get credit for not managing them, hiding it from your own managers, and hoping you can make things so bad for them they have to leave.

    Even though you are a manager, here’s the thing — you are still an employee. Your team is still part of a bigger whole. There are times to stand up for your team, sure, but there are other times where you have to go back to the team and sell them something you don’t like yourself. If you can’t take a stand that is unpopular with your team, you are as weak and and as bad as if you can never say no to the higher ups. And you manage everyone on your team, as fairly as you can, not just the people you like.

    It sounds to me like you wanted to be loved by all your employees (except the new woman), and your “management” was mostly about making them happy and making your office a cool place to work. Sure, managing can include making your employees happy to be at work. But it also includes ensuring that your employees are doing their jobs and helping the company make money. Once you started making decisions that went against the direction the company had explicitly chosen and then lost the company money, you became too expensive to keep.

    1. Granny K*

      “I called it un-managing.” I’ve had this happen to me. I call it: being a bad manager, although there are others that might refer to it as a ‘hostile work environment’.

      1. fposte*

        “Hostile work environment” has a specific legal meaning, though; unless it happened for a specific reason forbidden by law, that’s not legally a hostile work environment.

  188. mcr-red*

    I read this and thought for sure the site is being trolled. But I do know people IRL who cannot admit they are wrong, though they can spout off every single thing they did wrong, but it’s not THEIR fault!

    So, on the off chance the letter is real, LW, I don’t think you’ll listen to anyone who won’t tell you that you’re right and your bosses are wrong and that you did nothing wrong. At least hear this: If you flagrantly disobey your bosses, and they find out, you will likely be fired. And, most especially, if you cost the company money in any way, it is extremely likely you will be fired.

  190. Sarah D*

    The LW shows no remorse for the cruelty meted out by LW and team to the ex-employee. I really hope the ex-employee is happy in her new role and wish her every success. The LW is only sorry that she has been made to face the consequences of her actions.

  191. Janelle*

    LW thought less of her because she didn’t get her masters. You must be kidding me. What a cocky attitude. This LW just angers the crud out of me. She should not be allowed to manage anyone and should be working at the bottom rung at a crappy call center or something like for Comcast. Some karma. You don’t have to like someone to properly manage them, or not break the law, or not be a judgemental (word I won’t type). I hope she has a miserable time finding a new job.

  192. Anonymous Poster*

    I graduated with a degree in aerospace engineering and took a first job at NASA as a flight controller. I was part of the team responsible for helping astronauts keep the space station running. Fun stuff! And I thought I was hot stuff. And everyone else knew what I thought.

    I got called into a surprise meeting with management and it was made very clear that I want all I thought I was cracked up to be. It was humbling, embarrassing, and necessary. I was arrogant and argumentative, and had no business thinking what I thought when I struggled with basic tool skills. How could I hello an astronaut who needs my help to love the next day on the station comfortably, when I struggled with such basic stuff and refused to learn? But what I really learned that day was that I didn’t know all I thought I did, that my attitude was awful, and that I was holding myself back. It was one of the most helpful experiences professionally and personally I’ve ever had, and I’m still very grateful to those managers that were good enough at their jobs to manage me like I needed.

    I didn’t realize all of that for a few months though. I stewed internally, but acted professionally and did what they said I needed to. Letter Writer, I know it sucks. Of course you’re upset. Please listen and let this be a constructive experience for you going forward. You’re better than this. Don’t let this define you, but let it shape you into a better worker and version of yourself. The company is doing good by you; let that take hold. Trust me, it’s worth it.

    1. TootsNYC*

      This is very encouraging!

      Letter Writer, I hope this can help you find the equilibrium to—in quiet and in time—see what your errors are.

      And we’ve all been pretty critical, but I hope you can grow, and can learn to forgive yourself for screwing up.

      We all do–some of us worse than others. But we are all still worthy of growing and of being trusted once we’ve done so.

  193. InquisativeMommy*

    How frustrating, if I had experience this I would have left too..
    IMHO It is a manager’s job to develop, mentor and train their people and to use them to the best of their ability. If the worker didn’t fit in it is because you allowed an environment to be created through actions you took. You may not have been able to keep team members from posting what they did, but you fostered an environment where the team member felt they would be allowed to do so without repercussions.
    If I read the comment correctly you also diverted work, meant for her, to other team members based on how you felt she should be doing her job and to keep other team members happy. You took it upon yourself to make her work for a goal that you envisioned the only problem is that it is isn’t your job. Your job is a MANAGER you are meant to manage people, projects, and hit your plan of actions and milestone markers. You don’t have to like people, you just must make sure they are working, completing projects, and arriving on time and behaving in a manner that follows the company handbook/guidelines/directives.
    You were hired to make sure that the CEO, President, or owners vision and missions statements were being carried out, not yours, and that is what you fail to realize. The director hired her for a specific role and banked on her growing the company and any all profits she would have brought in. I had a close relationship with the CFO at my last job, and I can tell you for sure that her job role was probably presented as potential future earnings through client relationship, and sales was part of the potential profit growth for the company. Not only that in order to get a new hire its usually presented to c-level members, owners or board members just to get approved.
    I had to re-read the comment a few times but it honestly reads as though this person was hired, and she felt like competition to the role since she would have outpaced you in 2 years’ time. Instead you invested in destroying and frustrating her hoping she would leave. Excellent job, because she did. Now that the company is out all the money it took to hire her, all future potential gains, loss of clients, and a potential bad reputation you don’t understand why you were fired to begin with. The worst part about it is that everyone was fired for your actions or your lack of in action.
    People in general sometimes forget if you aren’t working for yourself you are working for someone else’s dreams and goals. If you start becoming a “rouge” member you can and will be fired. I hope you take it all with a grain of salt and learn to be a bit humbler in your approach to managing. We all make mistakes even the best of us but you need to look at this situation from the point of the company owners/CEO/level members.

  194. Katie the Fed*

    This is actually one of the most enlightening posts I’ve ever seen on AAM, because I think managers like this aren’t THAT rare and it’s a opportunity to see into her mind.

    OP – I don’t think I’m going to say much that Alison hasn’t said. But you really need to humble yourself and LEARN. Learn that degrees don’t mean anything. That if YOUR boss wants something handled a certain way, you probably should do it that way. Learn that “un-managing” and ostracizing your employees is cruel and not what you’re being paid to do. Learn that you’re not “friends” with the people you manage – you’re their manager.

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem you’re willing to learn and you’re going to really, really struggle in your career until you do.

    Best of luck.

  195. A.N.O.N.*

    OP, I’m getting lost in your logic. You say you think you should get credit for managing your team and trying to give them opportunities to grow. However, the employee who left was a part of your team, and before she was even hired you were setting her up for failure; you actively tried to create a work environment toxic enough for her to leave (“I didn’t want the ex employee to begin with. So I wanted to make it uncomfortable for her to leave”).
    How is that, in your opinion, good management?? And another point, you don’t give your employees an opportunity to grow at the expense of other employees. So if your supervisor specifically told you to give an assignment to ex-employee, giving it to someone else so that they can grow is not an excuse. It’s insubordination, and it’s unfair to the ex-employee.

    Whether you liked it or not, your company chose to hire ex-employee for a reason. They hired her to perform a certain function within the company for a reason. For you to ignore all that without even consulting your supervisor about why you want to ignore it is asking for trouble.

  196. Merci Dee*

    ” If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

    This sentence immediately struck me — the whole motivation for everything the OP did or did not do to/for the former employee. The whole situation is sad to me, because this ends up looking like the OP’s jealousy completely tore apart her whole department. Not to say that her bad management practices didn’t play a part, but the group seemed to be flying under the radar with it until someone came along that she perceived as a threat to her position. But the thing that’s worst is that the OP continues to treat all this like no big deal, so much so that she’s talking about how she and the rest of the team want to take some kind of action against the former employee because they reaped the consequences of their own bad behavior!

  197. Buffy*

    About a year ago I was hired onto a brand new team, as a result of a higher up “cleaning house.” Obviously, I don’t have all the details but it seems the previous team was clique-ish and ineffective at their jobs…just wanted to put my 2 cents in because I’m really proud of the way (new) team has righted the ship to a lot of praise from other departments and higher ups. Long story short, I hope the company is able to develop the team they need and OP is able figure out their next career step!

  198. OldJules*

    A few years back, I was hired into an organization to do an analyst level role. They hired me for my project management skills. I was asked to manage a big project. There was a manager who was about my age in that department. She consistently undermined my whole project by utilizing her insider knowledge and relationship. I am however an experienced PM. So while I might get stonewalled, lied to and lied about, I had enough technical competency to ask the right questions and find the right people and get the right thing done. Additionally, there was a senior manager/VP there who realized after publicly humiliated me in a meeting, that she worked him up so I’d get a dressing down for something that is not an issue. Thankfully, he decided to be my sponsor henceforth. I left on the last day of my project completion. My project was nationwide rollout which was so successful, it was a first of it’s kind for my department. They had other projects lined up for me but I moved on. The sheer amount of work it takes for me to pull it together and make it successful was not worth it when I have someone actively sabotaging me.

    I am glad I met her and left the organization. I would not have reached where I am today if she didn’t create a toxic environment for me. I am much further in my career today than I would have been if I stayed where I was. Here is what you need to understand about competent employees, we don’t have to stay and suffer the abuse. Which was your intent anyway. But think about this. I have recommended peers and C-suites to positions I think would be a great fit for them and the organization. While I might not have a lot of political power, people who I work with, especially senior management and clients trusts me. If someone asked me about my feedback about this young manager as a potential hire, I would be very frank about it. It’s been a few years and I would preface it with, ‘I haven’t worked with her recently…’ But I will not recommend her. So next time you think about passive aggressively managing someone out of an organization, you’d consider that. The world is a small place and unless you move to a different city, your reputation is your equity.

    Here is my 2 cents of what you learn from your recent experience, next time you interact with someone you work with, co-workers/direct reports/anyone at all, ask yourself, what reputation am I building for myself? Seeing how she has a lot of experience, she could also know more people in the industry. It could potentially backfire on you when you are job seeking.

    1. AMPG*

      This is a brilliant point. A number of years ago I worked with someone who was very valuable to our team and well-liked by our clients, but a horrible bully as a manager. Because she only supervised a couple of people at a time, most people above her didn’t know what was going on, but I did because I overheard some things and because I was friendly with the people she managed. She left and a few years later started making inquiries about coming back. I made it clear to my team leaders (who hadn’t been around when she first worked on our team) that she would jeopardize the professionalism and respect they’d worked hard to build. And so she didn’t get an interview.

  199. nnn*

    Dear LW,

    Part of managing is being able to effectively communicate to employees who aren’t up to par what exactly you want them to do differently, and being able to communicate the same thing up to your own management when the employee is unsatisfactory enough that you have to take formal measures like downgrading the employee’s evaluation.

    To make yourself a better manager in your next job, you could work on that by doing a self-debriefing of this particular employee, articulating in a way you’d explain to the employee and in a way you’d explain to your manager what it is you want the employee to do differently.

    For example:
    – You say your team her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. What, exactly, should she have been doing in order to be less quiet in a way that is not show-off-like? How could she have developed sales presentations and connected with each client in a way that was not show-off-like but also continued to meet your company’s objectives?
    – You say when she asked for help, you didn’t take it seriously because you thought she acted like she knew everything. How could she have asked for help differently in a way that made it clear she didn’t know everything and therefore actually wanted help?
    – You say she made your team look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason. Does this mean she should have never gone above and beyond? Or only when there’s a reason? What constituted a good reason? Did you want her to check with you first?
    – You say she needed to earn her way to what your director envisioned for her. What exactly should she have been doing to earn her way there, especially since connecting with clients and going above and beyond are frowned upon?

    As part of good management, you need to be able to effectively communicate all these things to the employee, so she has an opportunity to meet your expectations.

    Since you also disagree with your chain of command about this employee’s quality, you’d need to be able to effectively communicate to them why you disagree. For example:
    – You say you don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, director and client executives. Why not? Did she not do the work they thought she did? Were there quality issues that they weren’t seeing?
    – You say you thought that her years of experience were irrelevant. What aspects of her experience did you feel were irrelevant but your chain of command thought was pertinent? Was there other experience that you wish she’d had but your chain of command didn’t see as necessary?
    – You point out that she only had a bachelor’s degree while the rest of the team had a master’s. What knowledge or skills was she lacking that she would have gained if she’d had the opportunity to do a master’s?

    As a manager, you need to be able to articulate all this to your higher-ups, so future hires can be a better fit.

  200. Indoor Cat*

    Ah, ‘kay, so I missed the original letter and the update, but this bizarre quote from this very letter jumped out at me: “she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.” <—–wait, what?

    If she's always going above and beyond, she is one of the best employees! The company is angry because LW convinced her to leave because SHE IS ONE OF THE BEST EMPLOYEES. By LW's own admission!

    Literally, in LW's own words–that is, from *her own perspective*–this ex-employee went above and beyond, gained and cultivated great relationships with new clients, was praised by sales staff AND directors AND clients, had prior work experience, and was quiet and unassuming. LW didn't name a single bad thing ex-employee actually *did*, other than "show off" and "didn't get a masters", (aka, not actually bad things) but in defense of her actions named four reasons ex-employee sounds pretty great.

    This letter is so…weird. It's so obviously jealous and petty, but, like, LW successfully forced out the best employee. So, yeah, obviously LW got fired. I can kinda see why Ask a Manager would think this is fake, because it's so blatantly tone-deaf to think that this letter might persuade anyone in LW's favor.

    1. TootsNYC*

      Yeah, there’s a real disconnect in the idea that her “quietness” and “ability” were what made her “show-off-like.”

      And that lack of logic all throughout is hopefully an indicator to the OP that there was some emotional stuff going on here. Fear, resentment, something.

      I hope she can unpack a lot of that with a therapist and a job coach.

    2. ArtK*

      Translation: “She made my bestie slackers look like what they were, and that’s an unforgivable sin.”

      I despair of the LW ever learning how to manage with attitudes like that.

  201. Jessica*

    Here’s how this all could have worked if OP had actually managed the departed star employee in a mentoring capacity, the way she wanted to do for her “friends”:

    Star gets awesome project assigned specifically from directors or whomever. OP works with Star to get whatever she needs, assigns other team members to assist, providing them with experience in whatever skills in which they need experience. OP’s team becomes known for delivering awesome projects and gets more awesome projects because they have the ear and support of upper management. Star serves as mentor/oversight to other team members, who gradually become stars themselves. OP manages team of stars, becomes star herself, develops awesome reputation for nurturing star employees.

    Instead, OP tied tin cans to Star’s tail, ditched her to go to the bar, took away Star’s projects and gave them to people who didn’t have the experience needed to deliver the desired results, fostered illegal behavior, drove away clients, and ultimately got everyone on her team fired with extreme prejudice.

  202. Snarl Furillo*

    “I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my director and client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me.” vs “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like. When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason…During her employment, my director and I had several meetings on her role as she also dotted line reported to him. I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her.”

    I think one lesson you should learn from this is how to read your manager. It sounds like your team was underperforming and they brought this lady in partially in the hopes that you and your team would learn from her example and start going “above and beyond.” They expected you to use her as a resource to develop yourself and your whole team. Imagine how well your career would be going now if you had tried to understand what made her so successful and emulate her, instead of “unmanaging” her in the hopes that she would go away and stop raising the bar for the rest of you.

    Then, in addition to showing your manager that you and your team weren’t going to improve or develop and in fact resented people who did their jobs well, you started giving her work to someone less competent. You showed your boss that you couldn’t even be trusted to leave this woman alone and let her grow the business while you goofed off; you would take work away from her instead. You hurt the business to “protect” your team’s underperforming culture.

  203. Jadelyn*

    Okay, look, OP. Step back from your emotions about this and just look, just read your own words on this situation as if they belonged to someone else:

    “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave.” – Translation: I thought it was appropriate to bully someone into quitting because we didn’t like her personally.

    “she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)” – Translation: I’m a classist jerk who looks down on anyone who has not followed my exact educational path, regardless of their reasons for not doing so, and I assume it’s just because they’re stupid and lazy. It’s never occurred to me that people can’t afford it, have other priorities such as caring for a family, or have analyzed the return on investment as being a poor one for them personally and made the choice not to waste their time on it.

    “I had continued to be insubordinate” – Translation: I have no respect for the authority of managers above me. I explicitly describe my actions as insubordinate and don’t seem to see any problem with that.

    “I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying?” – Translation: As long as nobody says something directly to someone’s face, they can be as cruel as they want behind that person’s back, and I feel like that’s perfectly fine and morally defensible.

    “she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.” – Translation: I was jealous and insecure and took it out on the employee because I wasn’t okay with seeing someone else succeed better than me.

    Do you really not see that you were the problem here? That you did things wrong, you handled things about as badly as it was possible to handle things, and you 1000% deserve the negative consequences that have come to you as a result of your bad behavior?

    It’s never comfortable to acknowledge that you hecked up. I get it. I’m not great at acknowledging my mistakes either, but this is a whole other level of Refusing To Get It. I implore you, take a clear-eyed look at your actions until you really understand how you were at fault for this entire situation – and until you’re able to do that, for the love of god don’t try to be in a position of power managing other people.

  204. Toph*

    Whoa. Wow with the double-down. The OP’s new-defenses make her look even worse than the original post and follow up comments. I’ve never seen someone before acknowledge they were insubordinate repeatedly and still think they got a raw deal. The concept of “why would you keep going above and beyond when you don’t have to” was also a little gobsmacking to me. I know some might not go above and beyond, but part of the definition of doing so is that you don’t have to. Some people are just like that. Most managers WANT staff who do that. This new letter makes it sound like the employee who left was exactly what the company wanted, and the OP drove her away instead of upping her own game.

  205. Aloot*

    If you are actually for real, LW, then you are quite simply BAFFLING to me. Absolutely mind-boggling.

    You say you didn’t bully her because she never read the incredibly mean-spirited snaps, but you also say that you froze her out of her team. Do you not realize that freezing someone out of a group is a very common form of bullying? Socially isolating someone can be incredibly damaging to their psyche. You then dismiss all of it as “it was just her feelings being hurt,” as if feelings are trivial and not to be taken seriously. Do you not know that bullying can make people feel so bad that they kill themselves because of it?Feelings MATTER. Feelings are IMPORTANT. Don’t dismiss them like they’re just some throwaway thing that “normal people” don’t really bother with. Emotions are an integral part of being a human being, and your lack of empathy for this woman is worrying.

    To intentionally make it so uncomfortable to her that it would make her leave on her own could fall into hostile work environment territory, and that’s lawsuit worthy. You were a liability to the company as a direct result of your own actions, and your own lack of *managing your team.* HR’s job is to look out for the company, and by firing you and the entire team they did so.

    Why would you not give her the assignments specifically assigned to her to her? If you were worried about her work performance or whether she could handle them, you should have brought that up with the higher ups, not just ignore their directions altogether. “I knew my team better,” yeah probably, but you weren’t the one who hired her for her expertise and skills, which HR and VP found to be highly desirable. Why did you think your “knowing your team” was more important than the higher ups’ plans for her job title/position? Why on earth did think she had to “earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her” when she had already earned that by being hired in the first place? You are placing your own opinion above both HR and the regional VP here, because you “knew your team best.” Didn’t you ever stop to think that HR and the VP knew the COMPANY and where it’s headed best? And to go directly against them would not be viewed favorably?

    You seem to be very hung up on her not deserving it and needing to earn even basic respect from you. (You didn’t let her work on the assigments earmarked for her because you didn’t think she’d earned that right yet, despite being told that it was her literal job.) Why? Why are you taking it out on this woman? It sucks to know that you’ve been there 5 years and in 2 years someone else could rise higher in ranks than you, but that is no excuse to treat someone that badly. To be a manager and treat someone like that, it’s inexcusable. You should really have an open conversation with yourself why you did what you did instead of giving her a genuinely fair chance at excelling (or failing) at her job. Why didn’t you let her show you exactly why HR and VP decided to hire her over someone else instead of immediately dismissing and sabotaging her?

    Finally, you want some credit for “looking out for my team and giving them opportunities.”

    The thing is… you WEREN’T looking out for your team. You were only looking out for MOST of your team. And your “looking out for” was so misguided and wrong that you ended up costing them their jobs. Would you really say that’s a sign of a good manager?

  206. Turquoise Cow*

    “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.”

    As a quiet person who’s received positive criticism from my job and school work, I just want to say that this is the most juvenile thing I’ve read here. You have an employee who, from what I can tell, does a great job and stays out of workplace drama, and your response is to call her a show-off? That’s the complete opposite of showing off. Showing off would be if she came in and bragged about what she’d done well, or was loud.

    Instead, you have an employee who does her job well without getting in trouble, and you and the team seem to be reacting the same way my middle school classmates did. “Why did they make fun of me?” “They’re just jealous.” Being quiet does not mean snooty. Maybe she stayed out of the conversations because she knew no one wanted her.

    You set this person up to fail, and you set your team up to do the same. This is the opposite of what a good manager should do. If you don’t like a person’s work style, that’s one thing, but to turn the office into a place where you actively excluded someone who was supposed to be an asset to your team? I can see why management was unhappy.

  207. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    Where I come from, going above and beyond without being asked is a good thing.
    Where I come from, doing something to boost sales and enhance the company’s reputation is a good thing.

    I once received a review like that – kept quiet other than replying on the review that I did what I was told to do, if I didn’t the company would have brought in $2 million LESS. Manager refused to budge or rewrite. Hadda save face.

    Then they asked me to pick up more functionality in the “above and beyond” categories two months later- our largest customer specifically asked for me. I informed my manager that I would be unable to do that, I’m not giving you a weapon to use against me.

    I did offer him the challenge = “well, redo my review of four months ago. Retroactively adjust the salary increase. Because what you are asking me to do is exactly what you ranked me DOWN on…..”

    Well, he kinda went yellow on the re-write. But I was immediately included on the company rewards trip, did receive an “I’m sorry” bonus (but – my salary was still LOWER than it should have been!) and I did have to threaten to move to another department that wanted to hire me , to get the increase/promotion that I lost with the unfair review.

    But that’s the IS/IT world.

    Yes, a bum review/appraisal – to “put a star player in his/her place” — sometimes this is called, in baseball terms, a “purpose pitch”.. so-called when a pitcher throws high and inside to knock the hitter off of the plate == but to all managers who run with sleaze = IT DOESN’T WORK IN YOUR FAVOR. You’ll get away with it – ONCE. HR will back you up. ONCE.

    But you’re either going to lose the employee – or, end up eating humble pie and making a correction. You don’t get anywhere by throwing a “purpose pitch” at an outstanding employee. You get resentment, bad morale, and usually the “HR custard pie” in your face at the end of it all.

    I would think the company would hire the “star” back, but it’s likely that THEY know the error of their ways, and it’s difficult and embarrassing to do. The company will just lick their wounds and try to move forward.

  208. MissDisplaced*

    The thing that stuck out to me:
    “I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me. ”
    And this: “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.” [That is not showing off, it is called doing your job.]

    Ok, well I get you wanted to develop others on your team… but you NEVER EVER do this at the expense or degradation of another employee. Especially when those assignments were given to her BY YOUR SUPERIORS. There is a reason your director gave them specifically to this employee (because she does a good job at it), but in your mind, what, you decided you knew better?

    This is why you were fired. I seriously wonder where your head was at. You’ve got a lot to learn in life.

  209. justcourt*

    Wow, as soon as I started reading that update, I could feel my blood pressure rise. Even though the LW seems very intent on not accepting blame for this situation, I hope she keeps an open mind. She would be well served by trying to gain some distance/perspective on how she (un)managed her team and spent some time reading through this site to get a better idea of what strong leadership requires.

    It’s also worth noting that federal law prevents age discrimination against >40, but some states make any form of age discrimination illegal. And as AMA stated, the employee who quit might have been under 40, but LW’s conduct toward her employee definitely signaled a real potential for illegal age discrimination in the future.

  210. mf*

    “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

    Ah, now I see why this employee was bullied. Makes complete sense.

  211. Bookworm*

    Probably not adding much but I really don’t think LW understands that she was already on thin ice with her former employer and this appears to be the last straw.

    It sounds like the work environment was too cliquish and LW was a part of it. It can be hard to see if you’re on the inside but I think it’s clear the former employer was probably waiting to let LW go and found a perfectly, completely legitimate reason to do so.

    1. Czhorat*

      I wonder if LW had been a peer of the group she was managing before being elevated to management. If so, that explains a bit; the transition from peer to manager is a very tough one, and many well-functioning offices will avoid promoting someone to manage the group of which they are a part if it can be avoided.

      1. Letter Writer*

        This is what happened. I was part of the team and then when there was a re org, I became their manager based on achieving excellent results on my own.

        1. Rainy, PI*

          It is possible to excel in these circumstances (I was promoted to be the supervisor of the person who was my supervisor when I started in my organization, along with ~150 other direct reports, and I worked very hard to do a good job at managing so many people with my previous managerial experience, which topped out at 5 unless you count classroom situations–I’d taught university) but it takes a degree of self-knowledge and willingness to admit fault that I haven’t seen from you heretofore. I also did a LOT of reading and took all the management courses my organization offered.

          If you are ever offered the opportunity again, LW, I really suggest doing a lot of reading and learning, and finding a mentor with whom you can touch base regularly and talk about the situations you are running into.

        2. Czhorat*

          It’s a very hard thing to do because it changes the fundamental relationship; you’re no longer a peer, but a supervisor. As a peer, for example, it wouldn’t necessarily be your place to stop things like the beer runs (though you likely SHOULD encourage fairness towards new hires, regardless of your position). The relationship discouraged you from putting the brakes on bad behavior from the rest of your team AND encouraged you to show favoritism to someone from outside the “in group”.

          Way up above I listed some of the things you can learn from this. One is that a manager is expected to be fair in treatment of their reports. That doesn’t mean that you can’t like some people more than others, but that you cannot in your official capacity treat them differently because of how much you do or don’t like them. Of your many mistakes, that stands out to me as a central one.

  212. Shadow*

    I totally get the Ops defensiveness. It’s super easy to feel that way when what you’re doing is working…..at least you believe it’s working. The problem though is you can’t be an effective manager without knowing how easy it can be to go down a path that can or will cause big problems. Many many managers that fail big don’t just do really really bad things right off the bat. They start small-they do something that seems okay in the moment without understanding how it can come back to be a problem down the road. This is how most managers fail and this sounds like how the op failed.

  213. Erin*

    At the end of the exchange, LW is asking if she can get some credit.

    I will give LW some credit: LW’s actions got her entire team – her friends – fired. LW’s management – or lack thereof – of her original team permitted and openly condoned behavior that was unprofessional in the extreme. One of a manager’s many roles is to create and enforce boundaries within and among a team. As noted by others, LW failed to look out for ALL her team members and helping them develop professionally. Moreover, she failed to recognize and end bad behavior; in fact, she participated and encouraged bad behavior. Instead of managing them as needed, she was their “friend”.

    This is the opposite of “looking your for” your team or “giving them opportunities”. In the end, management had no choice but to fire the entire team.

    “I get that I am a shitty manager unless you actually worked with me but I worked with friend for 5 years.”

    From the perspective of the ex-employee LW was a bad manager because she created a hostile work environment. From the perspective of “her team” – who she “looked out for” – she was a bad manager because the environment she permitted got them fired. Who else is there?

  214. Lady Phoenix*

    Here’s what you need to do:
    1. DO NOT SEEK REVENGE. I can NOT stress this enough, because you have nothing to keep you safe should you try to retaliate against Ex-Employee. She and the company have: records of your team snapchat bullying her, an unfair “End of the Year” report, HR on her side and documentation with them, records as to why YOU were fired. All that you have is that you got fired. If you try to sue, you’re gonna fail and fail HARD.

    2. Burn bridges with your ex-team They took advantage of you mismanagement to go on beer runs, sleep with each other, and bully people they didn’t like. Continuing to associate with these people is going to lead to your continuing failure not just as a manager (if you SOMEHOW get another job as one)… but also as a person. Toxic people corrupt your morals.

    3. Read Allison’s letters and all the comments. Understand that when multiple people are telling you not to do the thing, you definitely should NOT do the thing. Sometimes the best advice is not coated in sugar.

    4. Humble yourself. Your pride got you fired because it fooled you into thinking you were the very best boss ever … when you were negligent, arrogant, abusive, and insubordinate.

    2. Lady Phoenix*

      I should add more:
      5. Seek a therapist (which you seem to have done, which is GOOD! :D ). Your job, your friends, and your emotions really messed you up… BIG TIME. You should find a person to talk to who is FAR seperated from this situation as possible (which goes hand in hand with advice#2)

      6. Consider picking up books on management and attending management seminars. This will especially help you if you do this BEFORE job hunting because you can let your interviewing know that you LEARNED from this experience and IMPROVED.

  215. ArtK*

    Late to the game, but I still have things to say, so here we go.

    Executive summary: You wondered what lessons you were supposed to learn? Three things: You don’t know how to manage people. Your priorities as a manager are out of whack and your attitude is very poor.

    Starting with the attitude: You were handed a golden opportunity by Alison and the commentariat to understand what went wrong. Rather than accepting responsibility for that, you justify and split hairs. You, and you alone, are responsible for what has happened and, unless you change, you are responsible for not having a career going forward. If you don’t learn, you won’t last in any job.

    Priorities. Your company’s goal is to make money. They have a lot of sub-goals that they want to accomplish in order to do that. Your top priority as a manager is to help them towards those goals. We can have wonderful work environments, best friends everywhere, but if we aren’t helping the company make their goals, and make money, we’re doing it wrong. If you don’t like having to prioritize like that, then life in the corporate world isn’t for you.

    You tried to frame this as the company punishing you for not being nice to their “pet.” Let me tell you how management saw this. They have a goal of expanding a particular line of business. They hired someone to work for you to accomplish that goal. You refused to use her in a way that would best utilize her talents — you *wasted* her talents and all the money that the company spent in hiring her and her salary and all the rest. Wasting company resources is a good way to get yourself fired. Your reason for not utilizing her well was truly awful. You were afraid some of your besties would complain? It’s a manager’s *job* to deal with those complaints, because they aren’t justified. Mollifying whiners and hurting the company while doing that is how to get fired. As you now know.

    Finally, the hair-splitting. Just because you didn’t *actually* retaliate against the whistle-blower doesn’t let you off the hook. From what you’ve written, you seriously considered it. I haven’t read a single thing that says to me that you understand how absolutely horrible that would have been. Nothing but a justification that you didn’t accomplish that goal. As we said when I was a child, “almost” only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

    Whether the SnapChat thing met some definition of “bullying” is besides the point. Your employees’ behavior was unacceptable whether the victim knew about it or not. That sort of thing always escalates and expands when the manager doesn’t stop it. By not stopping it, you’re implicitly approving of it. I can guarantee that even if she didn’t know the details, she knew she was being mocked. You all may think that you’re oh so sneaky, but you’re not. Nasty people (and that was nasty behavior) will always show themselves, in a thousand little ways. If you think that the SnapChat mocking wasn’t horrible, then you need to look deeply at yourself.

    Something else: Ignorance of the rules is also not an excuse. You didn’t know that the beer runs were against the rules? A moment’s reflection should have told you that they likely weren’t and that you should at least check with someone who would know. The fact that it didn’t even cross your mind makes me despair of you ever improving.

    And again, we have the degree thing. Bottom line: Once you’re in the job (unless you’re in academia), your relative degrees don’t mean *anything*. Your MBA makes a nice decoration or a useful doorstop. Other than that, it’s worthless in the office. It does *not* make you in any way, shape, or form superior to the woman you allowed to be driven out of the company.

    Finally, you were fired not only because you don’t know how to manage and have bad priorities and attitude, you were fired because you’re a tremendous liability. A lawsuit waiting to happen. You let things happen that could expose your former employer to a lot of trouble. They fired you to avoid that trouble because it’s clear you didn’t know, or really care, what the consequences might be. Yes, you are a shitty manager and the fact that some people liked you and worked with you is entirely irrelevant. You failed the company, you failed your one employee, you failed the whole team and you failed yourself.

    1. Argh!*

      Excellent summary. One possible additional point: company’s reputation may suffer. The “pet” was hired for specific duties, and will likely go on to a competitor bringing those competitive skills, and possibly customers, and also a story to tell about LW and the company. No company wants a story like this circulating amongst customers & competitors.

      1. ArtK*

        Thanks. You make a very good point. The company likely decided to cut their losses quickly and prevent even worse things happening.

      2. ArtK*

        For some reason, AAM keeps losing my replies.

        Thank you. You make an excellent point there. The company needed to cut their losses as quickly as they could.

    2. Archie Goodwin*

      “I can guarantee that even if she didn’t know the details, she knew she was being mocked. You all may think that you’re oh so sneaky, but you’re not. Nasty people (and that was nasty behavior) will always show themselves, in a thousand little ways.”

      Another part of this is, if you mocked other people in her presence, I’m sure it made her wonder what you were saying about her behind her back. That’s happened on the few occasions I’ve been in such a position: whenever someone tells stories on someone else in my presence, I keep wondering what kinds of stories they tell about me when I’m not around. Or what they WILL say about me when I’m not in their good graces. It tends to make them look unprofessional, to say the least.

  216. HR Wowed...*

    As an HR Professional, this letter and update make me cringe over and over again.

    Not only did the LW create an entirely toxic environment but she placed her entire company at risk on so many levels. As a leader you are supposed to be modeling behaviors that fosters professional development, creativity, and prosperity for the company. LW did none of these things and instead created a college fraternity/sorority. LW did her team NO FAVORS for creating this environment.

    I hope someday that LW takes some time to self -reflect and understands SHE got herself fired as well as her whole team. Until then, I can’t imagine her next job will end in any different of a scenario.

    Side note: Where was LW’s manager in all this? I can’t imagine that they had no clue these behaviors were occurring. After all, inter-department communication clearly happens as referenced in the follow-up letter.

  217. Argh!*

    Fortunately for LW, youth can be part of the future back-story for an interview: “In my first job after getting my master’s, I learned some management lessons the hard way. After that experience, I went to management seminars, read highly-regarded management books, and took some time to think about what I could have done differently. I am a different person now and I look forward to employing management best practices in NextJob here.”

    If the interviewer asks what lessons, there are several possible answers: “I read the employee handbook right away but didn’t really remember the policies, so I didn’t enforce them on my team. In NextJob I’ll be sure to watch for behaviors that are not in keeping with the organization’s mission and policies.” or…. “My staff were all star performers so I didn’t develop the kind of skills I needed for incorporating a new employee. Since then, I’ve been studying issues such as onboarding, coaching, and team dynamics. I think I will identify trouble sooner, and when I do I will ask my supervisor HR, or my colleagues for advice.”

    The key is acknowledging lessons learned and humility acquired.

    1. Rick Tq*

      But OP still can’t acknowledge that she was wrong! Insubordination only works when the outcome for the Company is positive but is risky even then. Doing it because the new hire made all your bros look like the slackers you have allowed them to become is more than sufficient cause for terminating the lot of you.

      Making internal customers and clients happy isn’t going ‘Above and Beyond’, that is table stakes for business. The fact that a VP brought in a new person should have been a wake-up call for you and your team to up you game but you all dug in and sabotaged her work.

      OP, you may have a Masters but your name is likely Mud in your local industry, you have a long, long road to get back to where you thought you were reputation-wise if it ever happens.

      Your road back begins by you understanding just how many ways you betrayed your friends and your company by your actions.

    2. ArtK*

      Don’t know where I read this quote, but I’ll paraphrase it: “A person gains their first measure of intelligence as soon as they admit to their ignorance.”

  218. RB*

    This is so outside the norm of traditional management concepts that I wonder if there are cultural differences at play. Not that that would entirely explain it or anything……………..

  219. OperaArt*

    Dear OP, please understand that if you had helped the ex-employee to do her very best work, helped her to succeed, that this very likely would have helped YOUR career down the road.
    This is not a zero-sum game. Lifting her up also could have lifted you up.

  220. someone101*

    LW, it’s such a shame you and your ENTIRE team ended up getting fired; however this should be the wake up call you need if you ever want another managerial role. It can be so hard to accept when we are not right but digging your heels in and refusing any blame for what went down is, at best, really immature. Work is not always fun and games but purposefully orchestrating it that way to the detriment of your business and reputation will always end in trouble as you have found out. I really hope you can look past your anger, arrogance and envy and learn from this; maybe in a few months you will re read your letter, comments and email exchange and see them through new eyes. I wish you luck for the future.

  221. Close Bracket*

    This warms my cold heart to read. I have been managed by some piss-poor managers, and all my experience points to Corporate standing behind the manager and freezing out the employee. I am so glad to see a corporation do the right thing and fire a toxic manager. I choose to believe that they also sent an apology and a fruit basket to the employee who left.

    “I thought that as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager”

    Oh, honey.

  222. Anon Accountant*

    I really hope the letter writer can calmly read the comments with an open mind and be open to the feedback given by her former company.

    Otherwise I fear she will have a rocky career or be fired again.

    1. cleo*

      Yeah me too. And re-reading the comments today it looks like she’s started to do that. Which is great.

  223. Jillyan*

    Hoo, boy.
    I am hoping this comment is a prank, but more and more in this post-truth world am I finding reality is topsy-turvy. Still, I wanted to comment because you have the patience of a saint Alison. Seriously.

  224. Tiger Snake*

    OP, I want you to take for a moment about how you refer to this one employee, and everyone else.

    Because every time – every, single time with absolute consistency – you’ve discussed this with Alison and us, there is an “Us/Them ([b]my[/b] team)”, and a “Her”.
    Its not just ‘the former employee’ and ‘those who remain’; even when talking about standard processes that everyone was there for, these two groups are always [I]completely [/I]segregated, and never do you allow them to meet or intersect.

    You are the one who has made this distinction. There is a very clear Her vs. Us mentality throughout your office, and its because you taught it to your team.

    [I]She[/I] gets the special projects, so I will instead give them to [I]My Team[/I].
    [I]She[/I] is show-off by producing the results the Big Bosses want, but her work isn’t actually up to par (even though she’s getting those results). [I]My Team[/I] produces excellent work not because they’re show-off, but because they’re good.
    [I]She[/I] only has a Bachelors – her years of experience that isn’t important. [I]My Team[/I] all have their Masters – AND their 5 years experience does count, because it was in this role. (Did it not occur to you that after 5 years, the needs of these roles have probably changed? That they’re brought her in specifically so that this entire area, and all of you in it, can develop?)

    [I]She[/I] is not a part of [I]My Team[/I], and I will not allow her to ever be a part of My Team. We (My Team and I) will get rid of her.

    But OP, she [I]was[/I] a part of your team. You had as many obligations to her as to anyone else, and you failed them on every accord. You had responsibilities to integrate a new person into your team, and instead you rejected her out of hand and led the charge to freeze them out – to [I]get rid of them[/I]. You had obligations to ensure the work she was assigned got done, and instead you undermined your own boss because you weren’t brave enough to just discuss with him how to upskill your team (“Can Senior work with AllStar on this one? I want to start getting my team cross-skilled on these new tasks.”).

    The lesson you need to learn, OP, is that a manager is not a friend, and your coworkers are not a high-school cliché. You don’t get to chase people away just because they’re new and you don’t like them – [i]your job[/i] here was to see to it that the team integrate with their new co-worker. [I]Your job[/I] was to make sure that everyone could play nice together – and instead you allowed them to exclude someone and mock her behind their back.
    [b]Your entire job[/b] was to give this woman the tools that she can accomplish the goals that management had set for her. And you failed.

    There should have never been a Her and a My Team, there should have only ever been a We.

  225. Stellaaaaa*

    Success is not a zero-sum game. Your former employee’s success in her role would not have taken any success away from you. Additionally, allowing a deserving individual to shine is not thankless on your end. People appreciate and reward managers who recognize the talent on their team and trust their employees to do a good job. There is nothing to be gained by sabotaging a talented employee.

  226. Mina*

    LW, I do hope that you are able to take in Alison’s advice as well as all of the fantastic advice in the comments here and in your original letter. There are many valuable lessons to be learned from this experience. Part of being professional is effectively working with people we don’t always personally like. As Alison previously mentioned, a good manager encourages a diverse team and embraces each member’s strengths to obtain optimal results. Freezing out an employee who is different than the rest of your team is absolutely unprofessional. I hope that you can learn from this and discontinue this behavior moving forward.

    Your former employee did nothing wrong here. She simply felt unwelcome on your team (you were successful in making her feel that way), found a new job, and was truthful in her exit interview. (I am also glad to see that your company takes what was said in an exit interview seriously, as, sadly, some do not.) Your ex-employee is not responsible for the repercussions of your actions. That falls on you.

    I hope that you understand this and are able to learn that this behavior was unacceptable. It’s great for teams to get along, but that doesn’t mean being BFF’s and partying together. On the contrary, a good team uses their diverse strengths to achieve outstanding results for the company. Also, please understand that you’re not getting any younger and may someday very well experience the ageism that you demonstrated toward your ex-employee. It’s a shame when this happens, so I hope that you learn from this experience and become part of the solution to this and not someone who perpetuates this issue.

  227. ArtsNerd*

    Letter Writer, the most constructive advice I have is: learn how to be embarrassed. Learn how to be wrong. It’s ok to fuck up in most cases–we all do at some point. But you need to OWN it, and learn and do better the next time. That’s not easy, but it’s how smart and dedicated people succeed.

    Right now, you are… not doing that.

  228. beanie beans*

    “She left on her own terms. It’s not like I fired her and if I did, I work in an at will state so I could have gotten rid of her at any time. But I’m not that mean.”

    and

    “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave.”

    Creating a miserable work environment specifically for one person so they would want to leave is much much meaner than just firing someone.

  229. Anon and off and on again*

    One thing that struck me was LW’s use of the phrase “earn her way”, particularly in concert with the two-years/five-years comment regarding ex-employee’s promotability. It sounds to me like the LW has heard the comments from more established (and older) people in business talking about how 20-somethings need to pay their dues and earn their way to management roles or other roles with greater responsibility and not expect to just waltz in and be in charge — but she hasn’t even come close to understanding what that means. So she parrots that kind of language about needing to earn the right to have responsibility, but doesn’t have the management skills or workplace background to understand that experience can be fungible. It reminds me of my time teaching, when students would repeat phrases from their reading or lecture that they clearly hadn’t given much thought to — I wonder if this idea of “earning your way to responsibility” was something that she was taught in her Masters program, but didn’t get an opportunity to grasp how that works in practice until now.

  230. gingerblue*

    Letter Writer, a number of commenters here have made really great points about how to move forward, but here’s one thing that I don’t think I’ve seen covered that may help you to reframe work relationships and hierarchies in a more constructive way: you need to put way less importance on whether you buy into decisions or not. In your original letter and followups, there are a number of places where you say things like “I don’t understand why…”, “I disagree that…”, “I don’t think any of that was accurate…”, “I knew better…”, “I’m not getting it…” and then describe how you dragged your feet or outright disobeyed things that you didn’t feel had been explained to your satisfaction. You’re talking like that about your manager’s decisions, your company’s policies, and even, most alarmingly, federal laws. The thing is, there are lots of situations in life where it’s just not relevant whether you agree or not. It’s not your manager or HR’s job to coax and persuade you into following their instructions. For the sake of argument, maybe they are giving you bad instructions! (In this case, they were pretty clearly not.) But on a base practical level, it just doesn’t matter. Society doesn’t care what I think about traffic laws, and I don’t get to drive on the left side of the road until I’ve been persuaded otherwise.

    I think that misunderstanding this–the idea that you have the privilege to not cooperate until your approval has been won–is part of your larger confusion about work relationships vs. social relationships. You treat your team members as social friends, which is a problem for all the reasons people have gone into. In social situations, your buy-in to decisions often is needed: deciding what restaurant to go to, where to take a family vacation, or who is going to make the travel arrangements are things that people negotiate equally in a social group because those people aren’t in a hierarchy with each other. Each group member gets an equal say in these decisions because they have equal standing in the group. But at work, you’re part of a hierarchy. You’re acting like you have equal standing in the decision-making process, and you don’t.

    It’s telling how you’re thinking about people you like vs. people you dislike in this situation. People you like (your former team members) you extend those social privileges to: you treat them like their buy-in to your decisions is needed and welcome (by reassigning work when they complained, accommodating their creepy Snapchat behavior, etc). People you don’t like (your ex-coworker, the person who went to HR about Snapchat) you don’t extend that privilege to: instead you’re angry that they stepped out of what you abruptly see as the appropriate hierarchy (by going to HR, giving a truthful exit interview, etc). This is part of how you ran afoul of your own bosses: you acted as if you had those friend privileges to object when you don’t. You enforce status when you feel it’s convenient to you, and not when it isn’t.

    If you want to move forward in your career, you need a much better sense of how to pick your battles and whether you have the standing or political capital to do so. There’s a time and a place to push back, but you seem to be doing it reflexively.

    1. SleeplessInLA*

      “The thing is, there are lots of situations in life where it’s just not relevant whether you agree or not. It’s not your manager or HR’s job to coax and persuade you into following their instructions.” THIS.

      There have been so many angles tackled regarding this letter & update but this is a very important point that I really hope LW considers. In short, work will always be the one place that the term “Because I said so” applies 100% in regard to your manager. Often times I may not ‘agree’ or understand a request from my manager but guess what? I do it anyway. The majority of the time the decision makes sense and when it doesn’t, me and my manager will discuss it and come up with a plan B. Either way, it is ALWAYS a learning opportunity and you’ve likely missed out on invaluable experience by doing things your own way and discounting input from those Sr. to you. I really hope you approach your next job differently.

  231. hankypanky*

    LW, hey, I get being mad that you were fired — that is pretty awful. And all your work friends were fired too, that does suck. It sounds like you are in the “anger/denial” portion of the 5 stages of grief. I read what you said as a raw expression of your emotions at the moment. In time, after processing things, I truly hope you will “get” the lessons to be learned by this experience. Taking constructive criticism is one of the hardest skills to master, and I think you are getting a master class in it right now.

    I don’t need to repeat what others have commented here before me — because I think we all know (yes, even you LW) that this was not your finest hour (or years) in the professional world. I would add a suggestion to read what you wrote as if you were reading what YOUR boss was saying about you. If you would have no problem working for someone who treated you in such a manner then I don’t think you are ultimately cut out for management. Realistically, who would want to work for a boss who plays favorites, is an ice queen and hates you for doing your job?

    Again, I think its hard for you to see the lessons here because of the raw emotion of the moment. I sincerely hope that once you pick yourself up you enroll in some management courses — if that is what you really want to do — to improve your skills. Otherwise, its okay to not be a manager. Managing can be lonely and it sounds like you really like the friendship side of a work environment. Maybe you are cut out to be a cool co-worker and not the boss — and that is totally okay too.

    My sincerest hopes for your continued improvement.

  232. Elizabeth West*

    My ex employee made me look bad and I thought that as Ask a Manager you would side with a manager.

    Woooooow. That’s not how this site works, OP. You must not spend any time here at ALL.

    Maybe you should.

  233. NextStop*

    LW wanted the ex employee to “earn” her job. How? Not by doing a great job; that’s “showing-off”. So what constitutes earning her position? Drinking loads of beer? Getting an MBA?

    1. TootsNYC*

      And as people have pointed out: you earn your job by getting hired. That’s it.

      And you earn “getting hired” by doing good work in the field before the interview.

  234. YawningDodo*

    I read this earlier, read a bunch of comments from the last post, and have been mulling it over after initially stopping myself from commenting because my knee-jerk reaction was just to pile on unconstructively. But something has kind of stuck with me here.

    Letter Writer, you repeatedly say “I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn,” and the answer is that there aren’t any lessons you’re “supposed” to learn. Your employer didn’t fire you and your team because they want to teach you a lesson about being a good manager and a good person. Your employer fired you and your team because you did a bad job, because you lost them clients by forcing out a good employee, and because you put them in danger of being sued. From their perspective, this isn’t about you at all, it’s about protecting their own assets.

    Now, you *can* learn a lesson from all this, if you’ll let yourself. This can be a grand opportunity to reexamine how you’ve conducted yourself professionally and make big changes so that you can go out and do work you can be really proud of in the future. But “supposed” to? The people around you don’t exist to provide you with teachable moments, same as your job didn’t exist for the purpose of you having fun.

    1. Tiger Snake*

      +1

      That is amazingly insightful, and I wish I’d picked up on that before. YawningDodo is right OP; your former workplace is not an extension of your university classes.
      And Alison is not a university tutor going over a class lesson with you. Alison is here to give insight, feedback and reality checks. We’re all here so that we can apply that into a lesson, but that onus to find a lesson in it on *us* and us alone.

  235. Kate*

    OP – if you make it this far, please consider this: Your letter contradicts itself over and over again. For example, you say both that “no one got hurt except for someone’s feelings” and “by losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace.” Those two things cannot both be true, and it’s pretty clear which one is. To move on from this, you need to get clear on what the facts are, take responsibility, and not bend over backwards trying to defend yourself. No, you don’t get points for not firing a person. You ADMIT that you consciously tried to make the work environment so unpleasant that she would give up and leave – how on earth is that any better than firing her? Your actions were indefensible – so stop trying to defend them.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Lots of people got hurt on this one. It was not a small waste can fire, it was a five alarm fire. And topping it off, OP, you shot your own self in the foot, you cost yourself your own job.

      I remember years ago, I got into a go-around with my coworkers. I said, “Oh never x. That is not true.” Where x is well known for being true. I missed the memo. I dug my heels in. My coworkers got so angry with me they raised their voices.
      I autopsied that situation when I got home. I created that problem. I realized I had to guard against becoming a person who caused people to feel they had to yell to get their points across. And I also learned more about specific topic x so I could be current on research and general knowledge of x.
      OP, guard against being a person bosses have to fire in order to get their points across.

    2. JanetInSC*

      OP probably could not have fired the employee anyway…her director would not have approved it.

  236. SleepyMel*

    I was once in a job where I was the black sheep and nothing I did was good enough. It’s been years and it still stings a little. You feel like you’ve been tossed out with the garbage. I hope LW gets a taste of how this feels someday so she can develop something at least resembling empathy.

    1. TootsNYC*

      I hate to wish pain on someone, so I don’t quite join you in that hope.

      But I will say that a few years ago, I was screwing up. There were lots of things feeding into it, many of which would make people sympathetic to me. But to me the most important thing was that I had messed up so very badly that I could easily have been fired. And deserved it.

      It was the emotionally hardest thing I’ve ever been through, acknowledging that. I wasn’t suicidal, but I could see the edge of the abyss and understand how people could get there.

      And I came out of it with so much more tenderness for other people.
      So, while I don’t wish for any additional pain for our Letter Writer, I *do* hope that this experience can prompt some serious work.

      Acknowledging my own mistakes was the only way forward–and it made me so much stronger and better.

  237. WittyOne*

    The posts on this situation have really challenged me in that I’m shocked that a manager can behave in this way, cause so much harm, suffer consequences for it and yet still seem to be oblivious to their part in what happened and unwilling to take responsibility.

    I almost hope this is a fake letter. I’m so stressed out at my own job that I’m determined to take a sick day tomorrow to try and put together my resume and just catch my breath. But if I thought for one moment that the ridiculous behavior at my job was done deliberitely by management, I think I would come completely unglued.

    I’m so sick and angry reading about this horrible treatment of “team members”. I really hope all involved grow from this experience.

  238. Sara without an H*

    I offer no advice to Letter Writer — that’s been competently handled already. I’m puzzled as to why the situation went on as long as it did, given that the employee also had a dotted line relationship to a director who was Letter Writer’s senior. Surely the employee briefed that director on what was happening?

    Firing the whole team seems drastic. I can only assume that the situation had escalated to the point that senior management thought a Red Wedding was the only solution.

    1. AW*

      They were all breaking multiple workplace policies and caused someone they were depending on to bring in new business to leave so while I agree it was drastic it’s not surprising. From the POV of the business they *all* cost them money.

      It also wouldn’t surprise me if the team was up to other things the LW didn’t even know about: bullying others via social media or other inappropriate behavior.

      1. Sara without an H*

        Your probably right. The Letter Writer’s insistence on everyone being “friends” probably blinded her to a lot of other stuff going on. But I still think senior management needed to be paying closer attention.

    2. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      I’d guess it’s like a lot of places. You come in, you see the dysfunction, you find it it’s worked that way for years, and then you don’t bother to report/complain. You just find a way to deal until you can move on. Maybe I’ve had bad luck with employers, but I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve heard someone say “I can’t wait until I can leave so I can tell them what I think”. The last place I worked was very big on “it is what it is”. Essentially, this is how it’s going to be so deal with it or go. I’d guess ex-employee just thought it was the culture and looked for a way out instead of risking that things would get worse if she actually complained to someone higher up.

  239. Other Duties as Assigned*

    This has been referenced a bit, but I just want to say that I am thrilled to hear that a company actually listened to what someone said in an exit interview and took it seriously enough to take decisive (and apparently, quick) action. I think that too often, the exit interview feels like a pointless exercise. I once asked a departing colleague at OldJob if she was looking forward to her exit interview. She said she wasn’t going to bother, adding “point to one thing around here that’s changed as a result of something someone said in an exit interview.” Sadly, I think that may be a common view.

    I agree with management’s actions here 100%, but I’m having a hard time imagining what the wholesale dismissal of an entire department looked like. The only person I would have spared would have been the employee who complained to HR about the Snapchat bullying; that person alone showed some semblance of appropriate workplace behavior.

    In a perfect world, the employee who was bullied would be contacted by the company, told what happened and asked to return. I’d even make HER the new department manager; I’d bet her specialized knowledge, rapport with clients, the confidence she enjoys from management and a work ethic that has her going “above and beyond” would have a new department humming in no time.

    2. Snarl Furillo*

      I think it is likely that the departing coworker had been laying the groundwork for a bombshell exit interview for a while.

      “Sorry, I can’t make it to that meeting; I’m the only one in the office right now and can’t leave the phones.”
      “Oh, am I supposed to be working on that project? LW told me that Trevor was taking care of it. He’s not in the office right now, but I can have him call you when the team gets back.”
      “I’m surprised to hear that LW gave me a bad review. I’ve noticed she’s been a bit cool, but I’ve heard nothing but good things from our new clients A, B and C. I thought I might not be connecting with the team because I don’t socialize with them often. I’m afraid they think I’m a bit of a stick in the mud.”

      Then at the exit interview…”What was I most frustrated with? Hmmmm, I’ve been happy here, but I did find it difficult to cover the phones alone so often… Where was the rest of the team? Well, a few of them mentioned Booze and Brews every Thursday on social media posts…”

      LW was so busy “unmanaging” that she didn’t realize her unhappy colleague was loading the cannons. Ouch.

  240. Middle Name Jane*

    I am…flabbergasted. The OP seems to have very little self-awareness. Certainly she doesn’t have the professional or emotional maturity to be a manager. We all make mistakes in the workplace, but the OP’s actions led to multiple people losing their jobs. I hope she’s able to learn from this and emerge in a better place (after some reflection), but she’s coming across as bitter and defensive in her letter.

  241. Schnapps*

    In case anyone didn’t notice, the Letter Writer has commented a couple of times and in one of them she mentioned getting a therapist and coach/mentor. Yay!

    1. WittyOne*

      Thanks for pointing that out. I can’t seem to find the LW’s comments but am happy to hear they are seeking help and support. It can really turn things around for people and I speak from personal experience :)

  242. Not So NewReader*

    OP please read and learn about toxic work environments and toxic bosses.

    This is very important.

    Toxic workplaces drive up health issues, which in turn drive up insurance costs.
    Toxic workplaces don’t end at work, people’s home lives can deteriorate. I know of couples who have gotten divorced because one spouse had a very toxic boss, which lead to anger, arguing, drinking and so on.
    Learn the characteristics of toxic places, what behaviors people use and how that impacts everyone around them.
    Toxic workplaces can cause people’s finances to fall apart, as they pay and pay for counseling, antidepressants and have at home costs go up because of neglect of home/car/pets, etc.
    But wait, there is more hidden damage that toxic workplaces can cause…

    No, OP, the truth is your actions here were very damaging to many people. The best way to rise above this is to LEARN. You can do better than this. Try.

  243. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Super late here, but I have a piece of constructive advice to offer the LW that isn’t exclusively work-related.

    LW – please, please, PLEASE consider getting some therapy. The lack of self awareness your update displays is very concerning and indicative of some deep character flaws that are going to hold you back not only professionally, but with life in general. You don’t seem to have much empathy for other people nor any consideration for how your actions impact others. We’re not supposed to armchair diagnose, so I won’t, but I really think you need to talk to an impartial party that can help you understand what you did wrong.

    1. AW*

      LW (posting again as Letter Writer in the comments here) did say farther up that they are going to get therapy.

  244. Lisa Summerlin*

    All I’ll say is I find it somewhat sad and unprofessional that Letter Writer refuses to take into consideration her actions and doesn’t see where she went wrong. As you stated, she is harming herself professionally and as a rule, those in leadership positions are expected to or at least should inspire morale, motivation and connectivity within their teams. I wish Letter Writer and Ex-Employee all the best and hope they both can learn from their experiences.

  245. Printer's Devil*

    Alison, I don’t think I can address a comment to the letter that wouldn’t be considered unconstructive, since my reaction is mostly a combination of facepalms and forehead slaps, so may I ask you a question instead?

    How many letters do you get in a similar vein, from managers who expect you to take their side when they’ve made decisions that… you turn out to disagree with?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Hmmm, I’m not sure. It’s definitely a thing that happens, but I wouldn’t say it’s super common. Maybe one every couple of months (and usually more mild than this situation!).

      1. Lady Phoenix*

        Remember that manager that tried to force their coworker to work on her graduation day and then asked if they could essentially harass her after she quit?

    2. Kate*

      That was a bit of a head-scratcher, that LW thought AAM would automatically agree with a manager. Especially because there was more than one manager in this situation. Depending on who you ask, there was either a manager who was SO bad that her boss was forced to fire her and her entire team, or there was a manager who was SO bad that she fired an entire team without cause. There was no way for AAM to side with both managers here…did that logic hole occur to LW?

  246. Landshark*

    OP, please reflect on what you’ve been told with an open mind. You sound like you tried to be “cool” to your team, but you didn’t follow it up with managing. I’ve been in a similar situation, and it often breeds drama and problems like this. Work doesn’t get done.

    I’m not going to harp on it too much, but you were given concrete feedback as to what you did right and wrong. Whether or not you 100% agree with it, you can see underlying truths that, if you’re willing to be open to listening to them, will make you a better manager in the future.

  247. Ann Onimous*

    Wow: this is definitely not the update I was expecting, and that right from the first sentence.

    If it weren’t for this letter update where OP mentions that it was apparently against company policy, I still wouldn’t see anything wrong with the regular brewery runs. After work (and lunch break) socialization seems kind of the norm in all my current and past workplaces, for the past 10 years. Maybe it’s due to the Prohibition, that alcohol drinking always seems like so much of a bigger deal in the US than in Europe? So fair point: if the coworkers would come back stone drunk from lunch, after each of this brewery run than that’s definitely not OK. Other than that, I don’t see anything egregious in the behavior. I was ready to side with the OP.

    “I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from (…) client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me.”
    I actually had similar issues in my evaluations. Clients were generally much more pleased to work with me, compared to onsite coworkers. I figure it’s because I generally communicate in writing (IM, e-mails) with the former so I have time to tweak my phrasing before hitting the send button.

    This line of thought though: “I didn’t want the ex employee to begin with. So I wanted to make it uncomfortable for her to leave“, honestly makes you sounds petty. Sort of like a “mean girl” , like in the movie with the same name.

    1. Observer*

      Just one note- these were NOT after work runs. They were done during the day, which is why ex-employee had to cover for them EVERY SINGLE WEEK.

  248. Lisa*

    Of course the OP’s team “loved her!”. They protected under performance and allowed drinking runs on company time. When a star was hired it put their cushy existence in jeopardy.

  249. Akcipitrokulo*

    “Ok but can I still get some credit for … not firing ex employee?”

    No, because what happened was worse.

    Firing someone is not pleasant for them. Having their lives made unbearable at work for months on end by a manager who is trying to make them quit and a team that, with manager’s (at least implied) approval, is bullying and excluding is much worse.

    It is cruel and degrading, and the grind of that happening for such a long time has a much greater negative effect on wellbeing.

    If you want rid – then fire quickly. If you’re able to.

  250. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

    Disclaimer: I think I’ve read through all the comments, but if I repeat anything, I apologize. To be fair, I understand that coming late to the party may mean that no one reads this. I’m also sorry this is so long (I swear I edited down).

    OP, I’ve been thinking about your update for hours. I suspect that you’re still feeling really hurt and upset (justifiably—being fired sucks). That anger/pain may be getting in the way of critical reflection. So I suggest you put this thread aside for a week or two, and come back and read through Alison and commenters’ advice when you have a little more emotional distance. Because I think we all want you to be a great manager, but I don’t think it’s possible if you continue on the road you’ve hewn so far.

    One of the things I’d like you to remember is that your managers liked and respected your work enough to make you a manager of your team. They saw something in you that made them think you could handle it and thrive. And it sounds like they may have taken for granted that you would be aware of the distinction between being a manager vs. being a peer. Although managers are parts of a team, they’re not teammates—they’re the coach. It sounds like you were trying to deploy the powers of being a manager without the hard responsibilities (like making decisions for the greater good that your team may dislike).

    This was a pretty intense failure, and I suspect that you are really knocked off your personal foundation right now. It sounds like this experience is challenging your sense of self in some harsh ways, and I’m kind of hoping that that’s why you’re doubling-down. Because if this is about grappling with the harsh reality of failure, then I think there’s still room for you to learn from this experience and grow. But if this is clinging to the idea that you’ve been done wrong, then I’m really worried that this is a character issue. And the latter is much harder to fix.

    Please know that right now, if you continue the way you’ve outlined in your letter, you’ll struggle to be hired, let alone advance professionally. First, you were fired for cause, which is not great. Second, anyone calling your references is likely to learn that you undertook a campaign of bad decisions, any of which were cause for immediate termination (and instant disqualification from hiring). And if you work in an industry like mine, word may have already spread through your customer base and competitors that your team were all fired for cause. Whichever teammates are goading you and trying to convince you that you were wronged are not your friends—they are holding you back by feeding your rage demon. (Remember, jealousy is like eating poison and hoping the other person will die.) So that’s the bad news.

    The good news is that if you do try to reflect and incorporate the advice provided (a lot of which comes from experienced managers and thoughtful, non-manager peers), I think you can learn from this failure, avoid future failures of the same type, and possibly even succeed. It’s going to take a lot of work. And it’s going to require that you undo some ugly ideas that do not reflect well on your character, including the ideas that it’s ok to conspire to ruin someone’s professional life for any reason, including spite; that insubordination is justified if you don’t like the person your boss hired; that it’s ok to harm your employer if your bosses make a personnel decision that triggers your insecurity; and all the previously mentioned issues regarding bullying, how you treat people you dislike, and the relative value of formal education v. work experience.

    OP, for your sake, I hope this is a wake up call. This update was extremely sad. But it doesn’t have to stay that way, and you have the power to change it. I hope you will.

    2. fposte*

      It sounds like there may have been other things in the LW’s life that contributed to these problems, too. Dealing with those in therapy may help her get a better perspective on the work situation.

  251. Emma*

    “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave.”

    Yeah…definitely not manager material.

  252. Emma*

    “I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave.”

    Yeah…definitely not manager material.

    “I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters)…”

    A master’s doesn’t make you any better or smarter than someone who only has a bachelor’s.

    “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.”

    I’m…not even going to go into how I think this sounds incredibly jealous and backwards.

  253. Tiberius Chicken*

    I’ve read all of the comments (whew) and there’s a lot of good information and advice here but one thing I haven’t seen addressed is that the OP has had the same team for 5 years. That’s another thing that needs to be addressed in being a manager. That’s not a goal, that’s a red flag. If you were really performing as a manager, there shouldn’t have been a five year cabal. Someone, anyone, should have risen by then. It’s another aspect to consider.

    And OP, I saw you mentioned therapy. Good for you, I hope you do well. But my advice is to be open to it. I don’t think your problem is being a manager, my biggest take-away from your initial letter and the follow-up was a real life disregard of how your own actions brought you to this point. I hope things change for you.

  254. Digitaldruid*

    Honestly, I’m not sure all these comments are going to make much of a difference. Like Allison, questioned whether the LW was even real. This manager had practically everyone saying that the team was wrong-and yet still persisted. Suing the ex-employee for damaging your career? I’m sorry, but I have a feeling that the damage was already done long before this employee who quit came into the picture.

    Other managers should take the LW’s experience to heart. If you are a bad manager, the exit interviews of your departing employees should terrify you, as it gives the ex-employee a completely uncensored forum for comments about your performance as a boss.

    I once worked at a job where one of the supervisors had an odd, dysfunctional management style that drove everyone below him nuts. It got so bad that two experienced employees walked-on the same day. In their exit interviews both of them stated gave their reasons for leaving in two words. Those two words were the name of that supervisor. The supervisor was immediately removed from a position of power, demoted, and was never placed in any situation where he managed people again. Yup, HR does listen to what people say in these interviews.

  255. Narise*

    You have to rethink your thought process and personal beliefs around education. You will work with many people over the next 20 years of your career they don’t have a college degree at all and people with bachelor’s degrees. You cannot judge these individuals as though they’re not as smart as you because you have a Masters. A Masters is not a judgment or a degree based on being smart, it’s a level of work that was achieved at a certain point in time on a certain subject. Case in point you have your Masters and you failed as a manager. Please think about this long term. I have met several successful managers who do not have college degrees.

  256. Amy*

    This is by far one of the most troubling stories I’ve read on AAM. @ OP at the very least I’m glad that you have shared your story and opened yourself up for discussion. We all make mistakes so don’t be afraid to own this one, the worst thing you can do is to be in denial/or ignore this because as AAM explains the consequence may come back again and the next time you may end up not only fired but even in court or worse yet fined for such behaviour.

  257. Persephoneunderground*

    I haven’t read all the comments, so apologies if this point has been covered, but I think it might be helpful to LW. It sounds like one core issue you were fired for was really insubordination. You aren’t likely to get out from under that by continuing to argue the decision if it comes up in interviews etc., because that’s kinda like (ex. only) yelling at the top of your lungs “My neighbors complained that I’m too loud but they’re wrong not me!”- you’re kinda proving them likely to be right in the process of refuting them. And you admit you were being insubordinate- you deliberately froze her out and undermined her in an attempt to make her quit even though your superiors told you to work with her. I’m pulling that directly from your letter. No boss wants an employee who can’t follow orders from the top once told the decision is final, and also no boss wants an employee who can’t work with anyone they need them to work with, regardless of personally liking them or not. So you’ll need to address that in order to get and keep another job. Good luck.

  258. Letter Writer*

    I want to clarify some points that come up:
    1. I was a peer to the team I managed prior to becoming their manager. Our original team became too large so we were split into groups of 6 with a manager.
    2. The person who went to HR was not fired but was given a warning and moved to another team.
    3. The beer runs had only taken place since September 2016 when we were trying to attract that business to become a client. They did not happen the five years I was there.

    I am reading each comment and thank you all for your feedback.
    I will start an intense therapy program next week (for other issues besides this one) and will be meeting with a “career coach” of sorts to see what other options are out there.

    1. fposte*

      Thanks for the additional info. I can see that #2 made this likelier to happen, as people were suspecting upthread. I’m glad you’re starting your therapy next week; I’m sure this week isn’t easy for you, but you’ll make it.

    2. This Daydreamer*

      Hey there. You’re starting on the right track. That’s good. That’s better than good. It’s tough to admit that you need to make some serious changes.

      Between the two letters that you have submitted here, you’ve gotten a firehouse of advice and criticism. Take your time to go through it. Take breaks when you need them. Sleep on what you read. Think about it when you’re in the shower or taking a walk or whatever. Take these threads to your therapist and career coach.

      By the way, you have stumbled upon one of the best career advice and information sources on the internet. Stick around. Read other letters and comment threads. It will help you navigate from here on out. And you’ll find some laughs along the way.

      THIS IS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD. Hell, it doesn’t even have to be the end of your career in insurance. Or maybe you’ll find a new career path that you truly love. You should also know that every single person here has fucked up. More than once. I’ve lost count of how many times and in how many ways I have.

      Take care of yourself. And write back. You’ve already started dropping the defensiveness and you’re seeing a therapist and career coach. I look forward to seeing where you go from here.

    3. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Thank you for coming back and updating us. It can’t be easy to read all these comments. It’s wonderful that you’re going to start therapy and coaching! I commend you for taking a step to make real changes.

      One thing I hope you won’t mind me passing on, based on my own experience with therapy and counselling, is to remember it’s not a quick fix. You’ll take a few steps forward, then one or two steps back, then some more steps forward. It’s okay and normal to have off days. As best you can, accept them and try to remain calm – easier said than done, so just try to do your best.

      BUT this is the good news! You will be AMAZED at your progress. You will look back after a year, two years, five years, and realise how far you’ve come. One day, you’ll think, “Hey, I’m not doing/saying that thing anymore!” Or, “Oh wow, my response to this situation is so different!” Those days are the BEST. Oh man, I still smile when I remember handling a certain situation I wasn’t able to handle in the past. Best feeling ever.

      Working on yourself is a lifelong project (for everyone) and it’s hard work, but it’s worth it. And remember that you’re young. (I’ve known people twice your age who have refused to change and in the process, they drove off everyone around them.) You’ve got plenty of time to get your career back on track and live your life to the fullest.

      One more thing and then I promise that’s it: if you have any friends or family you can reach out to for support, do so. This process can be intense and having supportive people around you makes all the difference. (No one from the company or your old team: anyone encouraging you to take legal action is not your friend and they’re going to drag you down.) By supportive, I mean people who are encouraging you in what you’re doing now. Or someone you can hang out with for a couple of hours and only talk about light subjects. Just knowing I could call a friend and hang out at her place and watch TV made a huge difference to me.

      Lots of luck to you!

    4. Lurker who knits*

      When I read your additional posts last time and the letter above, I was dismayed because your reasoning reflects some pretty scary values (others have already commented enough on this). It doesn’t matter how you learned them but now it’s up to you to change yourself. You’ll find a lot of commenters will root for you once they see you are honestly willing to change and taking steps to do that.

      I am sooooo glad to hear you are seeking therapy. One thing to keep in mind: Self-introspection is uncomfortable, even painful, and all the more so after one has messed up. Be willing to live with that uncomfortable feeling no matter how bad it gets because a better life is waiting on the other side. A good therapist will be support you as a person while simultaneously challenging your unhealthy attitudes and behaviors.

      Another commenter upthread mentioned a past letter similar to yours but the letter writer was more introspective earlier on. It might help to see that you aren’t the only manager who’s had trouble with jealousy. The link is in my name.

      Lastly, I agree with other comments upthread – don’t have any contact with your former teammates. They are not the kind of friends who will help you be your best self.

    5. animaniactoo*

      LW, thanks for coming back – you seem to have calmed down some and I truly hope that’s calmed down and not covering and answering in a way that you think will redeem you in the eyes of the commentariat. It’s an impulse that seems like it will make everything all better, but it doesn’t serve you well in the long run if you’re truly going to get any traction on digging yourself out.

      I want to echo Lady Ariel above about the therapy process. You’ve got a lot to unpack and these are habits and ways of thinking that didn’t develop overnight and they won’t go away overnight either. You will backslide. You just will. Because so much of this is ingrained in you at this point that to some extent you’re going to be fighting “yourself” to do it differently, think about it differently. Past the years of justifications that appeared entirely logical at the time, and the feedback when things didn’t go so badly in general so it must not have been so bad when you did X or Y, and so on and so on. It is hard but worthwhile work. So when you do backslide, the goal is not to give yourself a free pass for it – but don’t beat yourself up *too hard* over it either. Focus on taking a deep breath, picking yourself up, and moving forward again. Including, if possible, ameliorating or making amends for whatever it was you just screwed up. Even if it’s just an acknowledgment “I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have said that/was too forceful in how I said that/etc.”

      I would also like to say to you now that you seem somewhat more ready to consider that you might actually have been in the wrong about a lot of this, that you weren’t entirely out in left field. I mean – yes, you were out there. But you weren’t standing alone. A lot of the stuff I see reflected in your writing and thoughts are things that are being sold to people around the country. About how to work, how to advance, and how to view value. It’s wrong… you’ve been sold a bill of rotten goods… but it’s there. You happen to have been someone who was an easier sale than others, and that would be a really good thing to pick apart in therapy. Why were you an easier sale? And how can you stop being such an easy sale?

      I wish you all the best, and I hope that you can manage to turn this around and will come back now and then to update us on your progress. And – because I know that reading all of this is no fun – and yet you’ve done it, and you have to be feeling not your best right now, I offer you this [hug] if you would like to accept it.

    6. Stephanie the Great*

      Hi LW. So nice to hear and see this. I really hope you do go back and find my comment about flipping your narrative, and bring it up to your therapist. It’s helpful in all aspects of life, not just here.

    7. cleo*

      Your update to the update makes me so happy LW! Best of luck to you – you are not the first person to mess up spectacularly early in their career. Most of what I know I’ve learned the hard way. The fact that you are ready to learn from your mistakes is a great sign. Good luck.

    9. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      This is really heartening, OP, and I’m glad you’re taking this path. I agree with Lady Ariel Ponyweather re: giving yourself time to let the therapy help and remembering that working on oneself is a lifelong project. I have a lot of hope—I think you can learn from this and turn things around. Good luck!

  260. Hillia*

    This stuck out to me: “By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace. Our sales territory couldn’t afford to lose any more business”

    “Any more business” = they were already losing business, so the team was not the magical high performing powerhouse she thought they were. In fact, that’s probably why the new hire was brought in.

  261. Anon for this*

    As someone way older than 28, who might need to change jobs, I have a question. How common is this kind of culture, and how feasible is it for a candidate to suss it out in a job interview? Job searching and changing jobs does not come easy at this point in my career. After reading the previous post and this update, my biggest fear now is that I’ll invest a lot of time and energy into looking for the next job (which is all in the very early planning stages yet), only to walk into a team that is determined to freeze me out no matter what I do, because I’m not a good cultural fit; and then I’ll be worse off as a result of my job change than I am now.

    Last time I was job-searching, five years ago, I did interview at a place that gave off a very strong “bro culture” vibe. Luckily, they decided not to proceed with me, because (their own words) I was not a good fit. (Which I agree, I wasn’t.) I really don’t want to accidentally end up working at a place like that. Is that a real concern, or is this so rare, or so obvious to spot, that I should not worry?

    1. Zahra*

      I think the most obvious way would be to ask the management style of your direct superior. Also, how is success measured, what would make the difference between an awesome vs a good employee, etc.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Allison has a *lot* of posts, which indicate that while this example is extreme, it’s not rare; there was an open thread a few weeks ago that you should check out. Check the ‘how to deal with your boss’ link for more examples.

      My experience is that it varies by manager. Zahra’s got the right questions, but also visiting the work site can give some valuable insight. Check Glassdoor and ‘Best Companies to Work For’ lists, if you have flexibility. I’d love to find a way to work for SAS (analytics software), for example. Reading other people’s experiences can help you develop a ‘feel’ for specific managers and workplaces, as can being under a lot of different ones.

      I’ve worked in a 2-person tech startup; retail management; 20 person non-profit; 200 person tech company; fortune 500 company that’s been around for over 40 years. The smaller companies were easier to be friendly, but tended to get insular in ways that hurt their survival. The bigger company suits me more because they actually *train* their managers on managing, they value diversity, and because the rules that are written out actually guide (most) behavior. There’s at least three ways I could address behavior like OP’s, and explicit guarantees against retaliation, etc.

  262. HaleToTheQueen*

    You know, I’ve read this blog for a long time now but I’ve never actually commented. So let me start with this.

    “I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.”
    I’m flabbergasted by this statement. Frankly, I’m flabbergasted by all of this, but this kind of attitude in particular always get my goat. You are not more dedicated or smarter than anyone else just because you have your masters degree. Graduate school isn’t the be all, end all to intelligence, nor does it dictate how you perform on a job.
    And honestly, degrading someones real world experiences is one of the most near sighted things I think any manager could possibly do.

    “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”
    You sabotaged the business you were working for because you were jealous of an employee.

    “My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.”
    Leave her alone. She was being honest about why she was leaving and her exit interview didn’t damage anything, your conduct did. You need to own up to your faults. You have an entire list here of things you shouldn’t have done with your team. Any one of the things that you admit to doing in this letter is serious enough for disciplinary action against you, you just didn’t get caught until she had enough of your profoundly unprofessional behavior.

  263. cobweb collector*

    Well there are already over 1000 comments on this post so I doubt LW will see this one, but I’m going to try to explain this to LW.

    You were given a new employee you didn’t want for personal (not professional) reasons. You even admit that she was a good employee, built good relationships with clients, was important to the company, and went above and beyond in many cases. (Which for some reason you resented. I’m still unclear as to why). You’ve forgotten what your purpose is. Your job is not to make a great group of people, your job is to make a great group of people that does great work for the company. If the company wants to move in a certain direction, it’s your job to support that. In this case you did the opposite – you tried to sabotage your supervisor by sabotaging the new employee who you were jealous of.

  264. Yuki*

    Hi,

    I read your letter and I understand your anger and frustration. You say that you think you did everything correctly, yet your company fired you. I understand how this adds confusion to your anger. Therefore, please allow me to kindly go through your letter and extract a few points which, in my humble opinion, highlight the points where your company thinks that you made a mistake.

    “I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior.”
    I will get back to that point later. For now, I am keeping it for reference. [1]

    “Giving special assignments to her, even though it was her role, screwed over my long term team members who would complain to me.”
    I think the company’s message to you was clear: this is her role, she has to fulfill it. If people complained to you, you could just have explained to them this message. It looks like that’s what your company expected you to do.

    ” I had also downgraded her end-of-year evaluation. I don’t think she deserved the praise she received from the sales staff, my directorand client executives. Her work just wasn’t that good to me.”
    Why was her work not that good to you? You don’t seem to clarify that anywhere. I will get back to this point later too. [2]

    ” I thought if my team and I froze her out, she would leave. I called it un-managing.”
    Maybe your company found this to be dishonest. Maybe they expected you to tell her straight up “this and this are the points from you that I don’t like, please work on them”, and then give her a warning if she failed to comply. I am not familiar with your company policy here, but there’s also the law, and it would look like un-managing gave her several things that she could sue about. In general, un-managing is a very slippery slope where it’s very dangerous to make one simple mistake and get sued, so I would not recommend that.

    “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.”
    She did connect with each client though, and that was positive. Maybe your company thought that your team was lacking in that regard, and they found her to be show-off-like just because she could do something they couldn’t. [3]

    ” When she asked for help, we didn’t take it seriously because we thought she acted like she knew everything”
    I am not sure what you meant to say here. A person who acts like they know everything wouldn’t ask for help. Please clarify.

    “and she was making us look bad by always going above and beyond for no reason.”
    This is making point [3] look more likely. You say she was a person who would go above and beyond, and the result would show in her ability to connect with her clients. I am not sure what happened, but it could be that your company was expecting the rest of your team to learn from her.

    “I also thought that her years of experience were irrelevant; she didn’t have anything beyond a bachelor’s degree (most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters) and her experience was in a different subset of insurance.”
    This depends. At the end of the day, what matters to most employers (including yours, as you specify below) is how well the job gets done. Extra studies help people do a better job, but it’s not the only thing that matters. Take for example people like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg, they are highly successful despite both having dropped out of university. Note that I do have a PhD.

    “By losing her, we lost clients and leverage in the marketplace.”
    Now kindly look again at points [2] and [3]. She was bringing in more clients. Your company found her to be successful. She was willing to go above and beyond and it showed in the results of her work. I understand that she wasn’t a good fit for your team, but I also understand that your company found it unfair to un-manage her. [4]

    “I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her.”
    Now kindly look again at point [1]. To your director, it would look like you were actively preventing her from earning her way to what they had envisioned for her, because you were giving her work to other people.

    “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”
    It happens to everyone in life. At some point or another in our career, we encounter someone who is much more skilled than we are. The point is to learn from them. Plus, you do say it yourself: “if her role had panned out”. If she indeed wasn’t very skilled, it wouldn’t have panned out.

    “HR told me the brewery beer runs were against company policy”
    Not checking company policy is something that apparently angered HR.

    ” and I should have stopped the SnapChats, especially those who had it on their company phones. I disagree that it was bullying because she wasn’t on Snap so if she didn’t see it, how is this bullying? I also don’t know how/if I should have monitored this with my team.”
    I agree that, if they were actively hiding it from you, there’s not much you could have done about it. However, badmouthing a team member, even without said team member’s presence, is something that shouldn’t be allowed at the workplace, and it would look like HR would agree on that. The reason for that is that it influences people’s attitude towards said team member when she is actually around, and it encourages them to start micro-aggressions that they would perceive as acceptable by their team members. I will also get back to this soon. [5]

    “My entire team was fired. The reasons for the firings included alcohol at work, even though we were physically at the brewery,”
    I assume that you made sure nobody was looking or acting intoxicated when they went back to the office. In the off chance that they did, it would justify HR’s thought here.

    “inappropriate social media behavior, and not meeting the code of conduct.”
    Please kindly look again at point [5]. It would look like there was a code of conduct specifically forbidding what they were doing.

    “I’m not sure the lesson(s) I’m supposed to learn; I feel like I was the scapegoat for a favored employee’s reason to leave.”
    From your employer’s point of view, you were the reason that a well-performing employee decided to leave. The reason she was favored is that, as you also said yourself in [5], her performance was actually very good by the company’s standards. May I ask again why you didn’t like her performance, and why you didn’t explain this to your superiors? It might have cleared up a lot of misunderstandings.

    “Being dedicated to your work doesn’t mean you can’t have fun at the same time.”
    Of course not. However, “fun” activities that are actively harmful to someone’s performance should be highly discouraged, if not straight out forbidden.

    “My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.”
    I am not a lawyer, but other people in the comments have discouraged you from doing so.

    1. ArtK*

      Very good!

      One thing that I had missed was the “alcohol at *work*” thing. Again, LW is splitting hairs and being extremely literal to justify her position. LW: Most companies ban alcohol at any time during the working day. Even if you’re not on the property, you’re still “at work.” This is a basic concept of the working world.

  265. Synonymous*

    The Forbes quote of the day seems appropriate: When you were made a leader, you weren’t given a crown; you were given the responsibility to bring out the best in others. – Jack Welch, Former CEO of General Electric

  266. Not my Circus, Not my Monkeys*

    I know I am late to the commenting, but I can’t get beyond how skewed the LW’s optics are on her situation. I saw five minutes of Mean Girls yesterday and thought I was reading the business version in this update this morning. Oh the comparisons I could make, but I’ll spare everyone.

    Putting the people management issue aside, my first thought is that LW’s ‘mismanagement’ had to be already affecting the business or the management would not have put the ex-employee on her team to start. My reasoning is that the LW stated that the company felt they couldn’t lose any more business or reputation in that territory, which tells me the business and reputation wasn’t strong before the ex-employee entered. The ex-employee was also supposed to be a ‘consultant’, not an ‘associate’. The fact they did it without the LW requesting assistance should have been another clue. Add to that, the LW admits to being insubordinate by not following her manager’s directives and I am surprised it took the harassment complaint to lead to her termination.

    For the LW: I know getting a mentor has been suggested and I agree. Having someone to call who can help you see the other perspectives before reacting can be very helpful. It’s tough to step outside of yourself, but I hope the LW can do so to finally see the lesson here and there is a big one. The lesson is: You ignored directives from your manager, your team was not meeting expectations, and you were openly mean and hostile to someone (and allowed your team to be) which means you were the toxic employee for them and created and encouraged a toxic environment. Allison has lots of posts on that topic. Also, there is a legal term for what you did. Look up the term ‘constructive discharge’ to learn why ex-employee would win unemployment.

    I work in the private sector and after the point of hire, education and seniority do not matter much anymore. If someone out performs you, they will get the bigger perks/rewards/recognition. They will grow faster and out rank those that came before them. It’s in the company’s best interest to reward them. It is in your best interest to be a high performer, not resistant to feedback and change.

    I hope the LW can find a mentor that will help her see the lessons here. There are quite a few on the personal and professional side as well as in business management.

  267. S.Jameson*

    It really speaks badly of the whole company- an entire department does beer runs every week and the LW’s boss doesn’t notice?

    Also, it sounds like the LW is young and didn’t receive “Management” training since she doesn’t understand how certain things are illegal/wrong.

    So Dearest LW:
    1) I suggest you attend some HR/Manager courses so you can improve your management skills and your knowledge base
    2) Stop treating work like college. It isn’t. Working with friends for 5 years, freezing out a qualified employee because they aren’t a friend, doing beer runs etc are not Real Life work behaviors. This line of thinking will get you in big career/legal trouble down the road.
    3) And no, not everything is your fault- but you do need to be more aware of what your staff is doing on the clock and to treat all of your employees fairly and legally.

  268. ladydisdain*

    I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the kind and thoughtful advice so regularly meted on this site. Nothing about this situation speaks particularly to my work history or current situation, but I still found a number of useful takeaways, among them the idea of reframing one’s train of thought with ‘but what if this isn’t true’ – such a great idea I almost wish I was in a funk so I could try it!

    I will admit that part of my comment reading amounts to schadenfreude (I haven’t the faintest idea if I spelled that right) but its so nice to leave thinking not ‘wow this appalling person sure got their comeuppance’ but rather ‘there is so much good stuff in here’. Thank you all.

  269. Girasol*

    It’s probably too late to ask, but was the team male and the outsider female? (I’m asking because I know Alison is sometimes flexible with gender pronouns.) I have seen situations where a group of male “bros” feel that a woman getting a job at their level somehow demeans them, and if she’s good at her work they find her threatening, and they proceed to sabotage her and ice her out. The behavior here so closely matches that.

    2. Letter Writer*

      I am a woman. The employee who left was a woman. Of my remaining 5 team members, 3 were male and 2 were female.

  270. Unicornucopia*

    I’m not sure why you are judging someone on their lack of a masters degree.
    Never judge someone based on their choices, you have no idea why they made them. We can see here that certain types of degree do not enable someone to do their job better. The employee without a masters was doing better than their manager with one. The manager with the masters was consciously plotting in the hope the employee would resign. Both facts from your letters.
    I just wonder how the LW would have written into AAM if she was in the employee’s position. I’d be willing to bet they’d be the first to complain about the treatment they were getting.

  271. Indie*

    Letter Writer, I’m really encouraged to hear you admit to yourself that was all just motivated by jealousy and that you’re ready to go to work on yourself. It is not easy at ALL to say ‘yep, my behaviour sucked and was beyond the pale”. Something I found really striking about your two letters was how this realisation is only just soaking in for you. How you went (as I summarise it) from “So, I want to check that I’m a GOOD, generally OK person – this was just her problem: right?” to “OK but I’m not a BAD person right? I’m not like actually EVIL – don’t I get some credit for not being *worse*. Can we say I’m just … morally neutral – for not enacting out every jealous instinct?”

    Here’s the thing. There are no straight up all-the-time bad people and good people: not really. There are no pre-installed softwares in the human brain that make that a thing. We can all do bad things. There are bad deeds and bad motivations that’s all. Being so cruel to someone expressly in the hope that they’ll up and leave is a bad deed. BAD INDEED. But was your motivation bad too? After all you had a genuine affection for the pre-existing team, and the culture they so enjoyed, too right? Backing up subordinates’ desires against the higher ups’ isn’t necessarily the hallmark of a bad person right?

    And yet…..it was a bad motivation – SO BAD. The lot of you were absolutely petrified with fear and completely paranoid with Imposter Syndrome. If a smart, experienced, mature person walked in then she was going to SEE (OMG!) how you don’t really belong in a grown up professional workplace. You packed together like startled wolves and in your frenzy didn’t see her as the victim at all – you saw her as the intruder, the predator. You saw it as self preservation.

    Now, the light of day has come and you realize to your horror, YOU attacked HER when she meant you no threat at all. She was a just newcomer, there to help YOU and who depended on HER LEADER to ensure at a minimum that she had a safe-from-harrassment workspace and a pleasant environment. Not only did you let down one of your own, but you didn’t soothe the fears of the overgrown children on your team. It would have been easy to chase those fears away. They were only so many shadows. Instead, you got spooked too, and wound them all up tighter; spreading the fear. I mean, they (and you) should have learned in Kindergarten that newcomers aren’t scary, to play nice, to share, not to ostracise etc…

    The good news? Better behaviour is there to be learned. Your worst fears of failing have been more than realized and even after getting sacked, the sky hasn’t fallen in. You’ll be more fearless in future. The bad deeds have been somewhat righted (by others) and your firing is part of the atonement you had to make. You would never have been happy if you’d stayed crouching in those shadows anyway. Waiting for the next fear-trigger.

    You’re not a bad person, but you might be one who isn’t dealing with fear. Fear that millenials won’t be taken seriously so they have to group together, put one finger up to the rules and hide. Fear that your subordinates won’t respect you, so you bribe them. Fear that unless you have the perfect, privileged education, life, house and career trajectory, there are no other successful alternatives – you will be marked out as a ‘not smart, not dedicated person’. Fear that there’s only room for one successful person near you. Fear that someone is going to discover that you’re just an ordinary human being.

    Remember: “Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind killer”

    1. Landshark*

      I’ve been reading the A Song of Ice and Fire books at last (because I’m so late to the GoT party), and Syrio’s advice to Arya seems to ring true here: “fear cuts deeper than swords.”

      LW, I don’t know how true or not this rings to you, but it’s very possible that this was an unconscious reason. Alison has done some amazing pieces on imposter syndrome that I recommend here, because I know that feeling of worrying that you’ll be upstaged and revealed to be a fraud is a nasty thing.

    2. Mb13*

      I think that your empathy is fantastic and you wrote a fantastic comment. But I disagree with your general sentiment. We are the result of our actions, regardless of motivation. If we act in evil ways than we are evil despite our motivations. The opposite is also true if we act in good ways then we are good despite our evil motivations. In this case not only did the op acted in an evil way (which makes her a bad person) she was also motivated by bad reasons. Many people who get caught doing a bad thing lie to themselves and say “well I am not the type of person who would do that thing” and that’s wrong. They are the exact people who would do that thing because they did.

  272. Call me St. Vincent*

    Alison, I don’t think you were wrong to say it might be illegal because many states have laws against familial status discrimination. In the original letter, the OP mentioned that one reason the ex-employee didn’t fit in is because she had children.

  273. Observer*

    A few things that I didn’t see although I’ve read most of the comments,

    You say that you didn’t fire ex-employee. But actually you did – just more cruelly than a direct firing. What you did even has a name – constuctive dismissal. If she had left without a job, she would almost certainly have been eligible for unemployment.

    You’ve gotten a lot of comments about your attitude towards degrees, and you’ve been told to check your priviledge. This is true, but incomplete. YOu’ve narrowed your world view to block out not only people who do not share your level of priviledge, but anyone who has not taken the exact trajectory that you have chosen. That’s a TERRIBLE idea, both personally and professionally. If you want a high profile example, look at Bill Gates. He does have a background of privilege. But, he also doesn’t have a Masters (not even a BA, I believe.) Think about that for a few minutes.

    You say that you knew your team better than anyone and knew who was best suited for various assignments. The thing is that you may have kown who ofthe original team was the best suited. But you CLEARLY did NOT know who was ACTUALLY the best suited, because you refused to consider one member of your (then) current team.

    As others have noted, no one needs to “earn the right” to do the job they were HIRED for. BUt it goes further than that. The idea that someone needs to “earn the right” to benefit their employer, make them money and expand their market is beyond ludicrous.

    You say that HR told youthat you should have stopped the Snapchat bullying especially on work owned devices and then say that you don’t know if you should even have monitored this. Why is that even a question? HR told you this EXPLICITLY – and you can be sure that any competent HR on the planet will tell you something similar. If the behavior was inappropriate, you need to stop it. If people are using work provided resources that holds double ant triple!

  275. Mamunia*

    I’m not sure anyone will read something this far down but here’s my two cents..

    OP, your letter reads like this:
    “I was horrible to my report and insubordinate to my boss ON PURPOSE, and encouraged my team to be horrible ON PURPOSE, so the report would quit. And it worked.. yay! But now the company is unhappy with us and we have all been fired. I’m not sure where I went wrong?”

    Your letters list all the ways you went wrong as a manager. I’m really confused by your confusion. I could maybe understand if you had said something like “I did crappy things and encouraged crappy behavior and we all got fired, and I’m not sure where to go from here.” But the fact that you don’t even see the errors in your actions is unsettling. I would suggest reading back everything you have said and try to look at it from the report’s and the company’s point of view, and you may have your answer.

  276. Jady*

    I feel so awful for the woman that quit. This letter shows just how much she really went through and tolerated. “Clique” doesn’t even begin to describe this situation anymore. This is at a level like high school bullying, immature and embarrassing. Hopefully the woman who quit was able to move on, forget all about this awful place and doesn’t have that bagging her down.

    As someone with mental health issues, this kind of treatment could have done some serious harm. I wouldn’t have even made it a year there.

  277. ellis55*

    LW, I feel for you because I also formerly managed a young team while being young myself. I was in a new city where I was fairly isolated and I wanted desperately to be their friend so I could have friends. They also wanted to be my friend! I got lots of invites to happy hours, etc. – at first. They were hip and smart and exactly the kind of folks I wanted to know and hang out with and meet their circles, etc. They did all the things I wanted to do but had no one to ask – bar crawls, outdoor yoga, happy hours, brunch!

    My manager, however, was really strict about that kind of thing so while I would love to say my good sense prevented me from accepting those invites, really it was fear for my job. While I would occasionally grab lunch with them and have friendly conversations, I drew a pretty firm line on anything outside of work on a weekend and anything with alcohol. I hated it! I was lonely and having trouble making time for a social life because I was working so much but I also couldn’t make friends on my level at work because I was BY FAR the youngest director. I cried a lot. I talked to my mom on the phone. Every single day, I wished I could move and quit my job. I really, really thought what I wanted was a work life like yours and I’m not going to lie I probably would have been MUCH happier in those months at least if I did have that.

    That said, I am so glad my boss was scary and I learned that boundary. There were lots of times when, managing a young team, our office culture wasn’t apparent to them or they needed to brush up on professionalism. Whenever we had a performance issue, related to that or not, I could very easily work with them to correct it because I wasn’t their friend. I never feared fallout. I never made decisions based on the social repercussions or did anything at all to fit in with them. They thought I was just weird and old lady-ish and lame so they trusted that I was serious about consequences because I was obviously no fun. Spoiler: I did not end up friendless in that city; I eventually did meet a great group of people outside of work and had an active social life and relationship; it took time but it was worth waiting for because – side benefit! – I could leave my work stuff at work! And if I did need to vent about work, no one was sending screenshots to my boss when they got mad at me!

    Now, as I’ve gotten older I’ve relaxed a bit. I’ve settled into managing and in subsequent jobs I haven’t had entire teams of folks my age I was lonely and desperate to be friends with (thankfully). But I apply the lessons I learned there a lot, and it’s made me a better manager. When I do sense I’m getting too close with someone I need to supervise, I check in with myself and pull back. The old adage is true that you can always become less strict over time but you can never become more strict. Once you set the bar, that’s the bar. I have never regretted too much professional distance, only too little.

    So in short, remember that there are always millions of people in the world to be friends with and be your normal unprofessional self with that don’t report to you. Finding them is less convenient, but it’s also really important and once you do it simplifies your life a lot. Any short-term bad feels associated with being the downer boss are more than offset when you can confidently and politely address a performance issue with someone WITHOUT worrying for a single second if this will make them like you less. And bonus – any drama with your friends never has to affect you at work! So you can have a break from that every weekday when it’s happening.

    If you really take a look at what happened, I think you’ll find that if you can correct this one thing you’ll probably be all set – and the great thing is, you only need to correct it once! As soon as you make the habit, it pretty much works forever. Good luck, and don’t be too hard on yourself – just do better. Like I said, I was weirdly lucky to have an old, mean, scary boss. It’s not like I knew any better on my own.

  278. FactsAreCool*

    OK, LW. You lost me at “most of us were smart and dedicated enough to get a masters”. If this the type of attitude you bring to your management style, I am not surprised that you’ve had trouble managing a team of people who have backgrounds different from yours.

  279. Blame it on the...*

    Sounds like OP had their mind made up about ex-employee before she ever came on board and possibly felt threatened by her role: “If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

    Since the role was created by your managers/directors, it wasn’t for you to decide that her role should be eliminated by pushing her out.

  280. Delta Delta*

    This sounds like someone who wasn’t really ready to manage put into a management role. The fact that her higher-ups indicated there were larger waves because ex-employee left (loss of business, loss of stature in the business community, etc.), seems to indicate that she didn’t actually know why ex-employee was really there. It’s also very dangerous to discount someone’s experience as irrelevant. It sort of reads like ex-employee had experience that was valuable to the company and the company knew it. But because LW can’t see beyond the degree (or lack thereof), perhaps can’t understand how the whole picture fits together. And because LW thought she knew better, the whole thing didn’t work out from the beginning.

    1. Optimistic Prime*

      I think that’s key here, too. The LW seems to have little clue as to why the employee was there – and refuses to be reflective about it when told. It seems to be of little consequence to them that the employee was there to help expand the business in new ways and all they can remain stuck on his how much the employee didn’t “fit” into their group of friend-coworkers. Even if the LW had been an absolute angel, this lack of vision in and of itself would’ve been reason enough to fire them. If you can’t recognize people’s individual strengths and value to the business AND you are unwilling and/or unable to understand once someone spells it out for you…you’re not likely to be a good manager.

  281. RedinSC*

    One of the things I like best about my current boss is that he’s able to hear criticism (constructive) and not be retaliatory. I had that boss previously, and it’s an impossible situation.
    LW, I hope can see the advice that’s being offered. There’s so much to learn. I get wanting to protect your team, but instead of challenging them to improve and grow you were enabling them to stagnate in bad behaviors and habits. This was going on at my current job, and there’s been a lot of house cleaning and denial as well. I continue to work to learn to work with the constructive feedback to grow as a manager, team member and employee. Good luck with your growth too.

  282. Chaordic One*

    I’ve seen situations where, if ex-employee did not leave they would have eventually been fired, and people like OP and her team of meanies would have continued on with business as usual. I guess that sometimes people like the OP run out of luck, though.

  283. Rick Tq*

    LW, if it is any consolation your managers did you no favors when they promoted you to manage your former team members, they should have brought in someone from another team. The transition from ‘just one of the girls’ to ‘boss lady’ is hard enough, but trying to do it with people who were your peers before is very, very difficult.

    One other thing for you to consider; the consultant came to you with 10 years experience to your 5, so after 2 years she would just have been advanced to where you had reached in under 5. Focus on time in the industry, not time at your company.

  284. Out of the box thinker.*

    So piece by piece people had hit on your comments in this update and the original case. Honestly, I would recommend you sharing the original post here and this follow up one to your fellow fired team-mates. Im coming up on 10 yrs working at my current company, in that time Ive trained or mentor newbies who have gone on to other departments or positions. In fact my current team lead is one and is younger than me, but guess what? He is the best team lead and cares about his people and also is willing to deal with red tape nonsense and step in to protect his team from harassment. -That is a good leader. Age, degree doesnt really matter after getting thru the interview process, it all comes down to work ethic,work productivity and if you help or hinder the company. As stated by others, when you talked to your manager about assignments, that was the time to bring up if you thought someone else would be better able to handle an assignment, but it was your higher ups call at that point. The company needed the best person for the job, not someone who could use the experience to be able to do that role.

  285. Chatterby*

    It would have been kinder to have fired the ex-employee at the start. Then the woman would have avoided months of psychological abuse and qualified for unemployment.
    But I’m betting such a bold action against a good, productive employee would have gotten the LW in serious hot water. The dishonorable and cowardly method of forcing her out through attrition because she was better and better favored was very childish.

  286. Out of the box thinker.*

    Also re the brewery runs, did you check and make sure this was okay with your company’s policy?
    Many companies do not allow alcohol on the premises.
    It also does not look good if your team is going off and having alcholic drinks (or just sampling) daily.
    What if it offends a client when they smell alcohol on you or your team-mates breath?
    Now, technically you could put it in your car though hot car and alcholic drinks are not usually a good mix.

    It seems that you are assuming that being a ‘millennial’ and on ‘social media’ is some great status. Both of which should have nothing to do with your job, or behavior unless its a job function to post stuff on social media in which case you should still be professional.

    Also, regarding the person who reported the SnapChat, why do you want kudos point for not being able to do something that would have been wrong in the first?
    If they are using their real names, and are using photos of an employee on workplace premises, that looks bad for the company and is wrong behavior. The person who found out was correct in reporting the behavior to HR, since it sounds like you would have dismissed the concerns or would’ve just retaliated on the person who told you.

  287. CocoB*

    This statement…” If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five” clearly negates the managers claim to have been thinking of and protecting the team. It was horrid management that was selfishly motivated. Appears close to constructive discharge. The manager should have been fired and without significant change should NEVER be supervising or managing anyone in the future.

  288. Optimistic Prime*

    Oh man, OP. Here are some lessons that you can learn:

    -The biggest one is that for most for-profit businesses, making money and staying successful is really important – and is the primary goal of all of the employees. Culture is important, but is secondary, and only matters insomuch that it contributes positively to the business. A culture where people like each other, want to work with each other and feel positive about work is one where people are motivated to come in every day. A culture where some people feel ostracized and bullied is toxic and not productive for either side – for obvious reasons for the targets, but for the instigators it’s also distracting.

    You acknowledge yourself that your actions, and those of the employees on your team, cost your company clients and business. That *alone* would be reason enough for them to fire you, even if you had all been perfect angels to the ex-employee.

    -In addition to that, you exposed your company to a lot of potential liability. Depending on the nature of the harassment, the ex-employee could threaten legal action against the company. Even if she didn’t, publicizing the treatment she got would be enough to turn a lot of negative attention on your company, and if it’s publicly held, could turn investors/shareholders off. Making hiring decisions on the basis of who is like you also slides into some really unfortunate territory and is another potential way that your company looks bad. The alcohol during work hours is another big potential liability – if someone got drunk and got into an accident, that could turn into serious trouble.

    This, again, alone, is reason enough for the company to fire you, even if you were an excellent manager AND really nice to the new employee.

    -And companies have chains of command for a reason. I mean, you were a manager, and you expected your employees to generally follow your lead, yes? You said that you did what was best for the team because you felt like you had some special insight into situations. Would you not also realize that YOUR manager and their manager also probably had some special insight that you didn’t have? After all, if you’ve been there for 5 years, your manager has known you for that long and the rest of your team too…plus the other teams/people that they oversee. They have a comparison/vantage point that you don’t have. For all you know, ex-employee actually fit in better to the company culture writ large and your team was a rogue element (and in fact, that’s what it sounds like).

    Again, this by itself would’ve been enough to fire you for, even if you were a great manager, followed all the rules, and were nice to the employee. If your manager can’t trust that you will execute the things they ask you to do, they’ll have to fire you to find someone else who can.

    But the *combination* of all these things together is a perfect storm that actually makes you a terrible manager AND employee. Even if you were an absolute rainmaker, with all of these things combined you’re far too much of a risk/wild card for them to keep on.

    Also, another thing: even in the way you describe ex-employee, she sounds like a great employee. It sounds like you had a gem on your hands who actually would have made you look better – having productive employees makes a manager look good, not bad.

  289. Laura*

    “My team found her quietness and her ability to develop sales presentations and connect with each client was very show-off-like.”

    You know, for someone who prides herself on having a Master’s (the correct way to write this), your English is fairly basic. No one seems to have mentioned this yet – I wouldn’t have piled on, but it’s a good point for you to absorb. “Show-off-like” is a really awful construction, for instance. If you’re going to take a snobbish position about how much further education you’ve had compared to others, you undercut yourself by expressing yourself in such a primitive style.

  290. Penny For Your Thoughts*

    Wowza OP.

    You succeeded in turning me from lurker to commenter.

    Pretty much all of the advice you’re getting is solid, and as an ex-manager myself (purely due to burnout in the food industry), I have one more note to add.

    If you go and sue, over your own stupidity, you will fail. And you will end up having to beg for a job from either family, or a local place, and have to work retail or food service or another industry, but probably not ever in management again. I can guarantee that no manager worth even half their salt is going to let you into a position over others, because stories like that have a way of permeating multiple industries, and if you go to court? It /will/ end up in the press.

    So you have a choice; eat a healthy dosage of humble pie, and reevaluate the choices that you yourself, not anyone else, have made, or fail spectacularly, lose a great deal of money, and wind up dropping fries alongside the likes of someone like me. I had three years of college, but no degree; I managed three different Masters holders, and not just MBAs. One had two separate Masters, one in Marketing and Management, one in Finance. One had a Masters in programming. The last one? Education.

    And they were THE BEST workers, not because of the degrees, but because of the experience; First had almost fifty years in business, he worked for us because he was bored after retiring. Second was supplementing his family’s income while his husband got through a rough patch after an accident. Third was bored in breaks in school and loved the rush and bustle. Not one of them was anything less than a stellar employee, and I /begged/ for advice when I was out of my depth (which, given I was managing at 25, was often.)

    Age had never once mattered to me; personality, kindness, and a good work ethic did. And I learned, as you should, so very much from all of them that we still stay in contact, just because I know, at the end of the day, if there’s something I can’t figure out? I can ask one of them and talk it out. And that, OP, is how you end up in a great job with a fantastic boss and a kickass team.

  291. CodingFool*

    “My former team and I are wondering if we can take action against ex-employee — her exit interview damaged our reputation, our team, and our careers.”

    Like what? It’s not illegal to be truthful in an exit interview. If this went to court, the SnapChat posts alone would probably be enough to support her side of the story. The damage was caused by your behavior, not her reporting it.

  292. Ask a different manager*

    You’re not sure what lesson you should be learning? To be constructive, I’ve pinpointed your root cause of being fired in two of your own statements.

    “I had given assignments meant for her and assigned to her by my director to other members on the team because I wanted to develop them, including my newly promoted senior. As a manager, I knew my team better. ”

    “I had continued to be insubordinate because ex-employee, in my opinion, didn’t fit in and needed to earn her way to what my director had envisioned for her. If her role had panned out, she would have been higher up than me after two years when I had been there for five.”

    You were insubordinate. Period. Your managers hired a person they thought was good, and hired her for a specific thing. YOU got insulted, sabotaged her assignments, downgraded her appraisals and basically ensured personally that she would not be able to do what she was hired for. While INTENTIONALLY letting your team bully and exclude her so she would quit.

    I’m going to guess that none of that was decided in a strategy conversation with your boss about your intentions and/or concerns. Everyone reading your letter knows how that conversation would have gone – and I think you know too. That’s why you did it on your own.

    That’s why you got fired. You were working against your own management like a pouty child. I would have insta-fired you when I found out as well.

    *The lawsuit-worthy behavior you encouraged is just icing on the cake, and explains why your team went down with you – you ruined them by letting them develop this culture, and fixing that is harder than starting over from scratch.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      While LW was clearly a major problem, I have to wonder what was going on above her as all this played out. Did LW’s manager ever sat down with LW and said something like, “We’re bringing in New Employee because your team has started coasting rather than working, and we’re bringing New Employee into the picture as a change agent. We want you to remake your team in New Employee’s image. We’ve dropped hints about the problem before, and this is our final attempt at solving the issue before consequences start to happen.”

      Did this conversation never take place, or did LW never notice it?

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        Or did LW simply ignore it? They say they were on suspension prior to this due to poor management and complaints from other areas. It sounds like they got some feedback already and they were simply ignoring it because they doubted its accuracy.

  293. Ask a different manager*

    I’m actually seeing in your attitude something I’ve been seeing hints of in one of my own first-line supervisors who reports to me. Thank you for making me go from “annoyed – I should get more of a handle on that” to “Alarmed – I DEFCON-1 need to insert myself in that team right now before something like this happens (or is happening)”

  294. Desdemona*

    Given everything that’s happened, what are the implications for LW’s career? With no reference from this position, will she be able to get another job that isn’t telemarketing or starting her own business?

  295. Maolin*

    “I was already on suspension based on the exit interview investigation, poor management practices and complaints from other areas, none of which I believe are accurate.”

    Someone has likely already mentioned this somewhere in the 1700+ comments, but it was the #1 thing that stood out to me (and a lot really stands out!).

    I learned one of the most important lessons of my career in my 20s. I went to my manager about an issue I was having about personality clashes with a few people in the office. After my boss patiently heard me out, she asked me what the common denominator of my complaints with each person was. Can you guess?

    *I* was the common denominator. It was *my* personality clashing with them, not the other way around. They had also gone to my manager to complain about *me* – I was abrasive, sarcastic, impatient, and rude. Ouch.

    That talk had a lasting impact on how I’ve developed as a professional & eventually, a leader.

    Your lesson is this: If you’re being told others [plural!] have lodged “[in]accurate” complaints [plural!] about you, consider the common denominator. Is it more likely that HR, your director, and other departments [plural!] are all wrong about you, or is it more likely you’re wrong about yourself and about their feedback? I don’t have a Master’s degree, but I’m pretty sure the probability isn’t in your favor.

  296. Prinna*

    Honestly serves them right. I went through this too many times too count. I really want to know what employment she will get after this one. If she sues the ex-employee I hopefully the ex-employee counter sues.
    Not everybody can afford to leave a job rightness when the going gets tough. We spend so many hours at work to make people wanna cry or be miserable. COmpany did exactly what they were supposed to do, but I wish they had done it earlier.

  297. BrightEyedCindy*

    “Marsha Marsha Marsha” is all I heard through this letter. I had truly hoped that this letter is a fake but sadly it wasn’t. Kudos to Alison to getting deeper into this topic.

  298. Specialist*

    Okay, I am late to the party. I read all the comments and it took me a few days. So I think everyone has already done a great job of pointing out where you went wrong. There have been a few comments on where you should go from here and would like to see you focus on that.

    Someone told about their experience with a bad manager and how they would not comment positively on this person in the future. This should be highlighted. I would expect your mistreated star will likely black list you in the future. It is possible that you may be out of this industry entirely if it is small and word gets around.

    You have 5 years in at this job. You can’t really hide it. I’d like to hear Alison speak on mitigating the damage should potential employers speak with your previous employer. My instinct would be to send a heart-felt apology showing that you know recognize that your poor actions hurt the company and hurt the star–an innocent party. Importantly, any excuses for your actions should be absent from the letter. I’d leave it up to Alison to tell you if this could potentially mitigate some of the poor references you would be getting from your company.

    I’d apply only to non-management jobs if I were you. You’ll likely be asked why you left. This could actually also help you mitigate damages. You need to be honest that you were not ready to manage and that you made some pretty terrible mistakes. You were a good employee and did the initial job well. You have been working to understand what went wrong so that it doesn’t happen again. However, for now you just want to contribute to the team.

    I’d also explore jobs in a different segment of the economy.

    Therapy is good. Career coaching is good.

  299. Bernard Peek*

    My suspicion is that the manager was a good salesman and was promoted to manager without any formal training. I worked in a sales office many years ago that did that. It resulted in a senior engineer turning to his Managing Director and saying, in front of the whole team ‘The problem with you is that you have delusions of competence.’ Forty years later that engineer is a senior VP and the MD is long gone. I can see far too many similarities in the behaviour of that MD and this unfortunate manager. Seeing things like that was one of the reasons why I became a management-development trainer.

  300. Tina*

    This is so shockingly similar to what I went through at my former employer that I thought it was MY former manager writing the letter. This happened to me at a large Fortune 100 company. Just shameful that there are “managers” out there that feel entitled to behave this way. LW you should be ashamed of yourself.

  301. Ks*

    Part of what makes a team work is diversity. In order to create a healthy environment for employees and clients, a culture of different backgrounds, experiences, outlooks, and mindsets needs to be developed. The idea that someone does not belong on a team because they don’t share the same interests is adolescent and sad.

    I recently left a company in which everyone was the same…from race to politics to religion. The manager had a “type” and if forced to hire outside of the very specific parameters, she would do exactly what LW did…bully the outcast employees into quitting. You can call it un-managering or anything else…but it’s bullying. While those employees suffered, the clients suffered even more and the company? Even more so. Clique-mindset not only prevents you from having healthy professional relationships but also creates a barrier between you and the individuals outside of the company (ie clients).

    I now work in a team in which differences are celebrated. My co-workers and out clients are happy. Business is booming. And we don’t need alcohol or outside-of-work relationships to accomplish our goals. Exclusivity is simply not healthy.

  302. Tangie*

    The ex manager keeps saying he worked with his friends for five years. Thats the problem, you were more like a friend than a manager

  303. QUEENoftheDARN*

    In about 10 or 15 years when someone does this to you, will you then understand how unfair you were?

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