my coworker told me to stop flirting with a student employee

by Alison Green on July 13, 2020

A reader writes:

I am part of the HR department at my workplace, and we hired “Andre” a few months ago as a part of our student group. He’s only 18, but he’s been a hard worker and always takes initiative around the office. I was part of Andre’s interview panel, so I’ve always been in contact with him and friendly with him since we brought him on board.

For the past month, Andre has been working in my section to help process a backlog of paperwork caused by COVID-19, so he spends a lot of time in my office where the only working scanner is. We started with small talk but learned that we share a lot of hobbies.

A week ago, a cafe near our office opened back up (take-out only), and when I told Andre about it, he suggested we go there for break. I’ve had coffee with my other coworkers before. He offered to pay, and after we chatted at a park bench by the cafe, he offered a hand to help me up from the bench and held my upper arm until we’d left the park. Since then, we’ve felt more comfortable making physical contact, but it’s been nothing inappropriate. It’s usually just a poke or bump on the shoulder or brushing up against each other in the hall.

I bring this up because one of my coworkers, “Jane,” confided in me that she’s concerned about how Andre and I interact. She said that she saw us on that outing, and she confessed that she overheard a short conversation we had while Andre was replacing toner. Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.” She has also heard Andre tell me on a separate occasion, “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.”

Jane thinks this could result in sexual harassment complaints, but that wouldn’t make any sense. We thought we were alone, and since we’ve been getting more connected at work, we’ve been talking in friendly innuendo like that. Andre has never shown any discomfort when we share jokes like these, especially when he initiates them, and we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable. Nobody’s complaining. Jane, however, thinks this is unbecoming of a 40something woman like myself and could look very bad for our company if our private interactions were made public.

Jane says they’re not as private as I think and everyone else can feel the “sexual tension” between us, and she said that people sometimes refer to us as “work spouses.” I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant. Jane also asked if my husband knows about Andre, but my husband doesn’t need to know about Andre since I’ve never cheated on him and never would.

Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings, and based on the questions above, she seems to believe it’s okay to ask about my private life because of this. Is there a tactful way I can explain to her that she shouldn’t try to police her coworkers’ social interactions, especially if they’re not meant to be public?

Whoa, no.

You need to stop flirting with Andre. Stop brushing against him in the hallway (!), stop trading sexually charged jokes and compliments, stop the whole thing.

You are in HR. He is an 18-year-old student employee. You cannot flirt with or trade sexual innuendo with a student employee.

Yes, this could be sexual harassment. It could be sexual harassment of Andre if he ever starts to feel uncomfortable or like his security in his job depends on continuing the flirtation (and just because someone seems comfortable with this kind of contact at first, that doesn’t mean they’ll continue to feel comfortable with it). It could also be a legal liability if others are forced to overhear obvious sexual remarks between the two of you (that toner comment? come on — I guarantee you that grossed out anyone who overheard).

And yes, potential harassment issues aside, this will absolutely affect the way others think of you. At a minimum, you’ll look like you have terrible judgment, and if this continues people will suspect you of more than that.

Doing this with any colleague would be inappropriate. Doing it with an 18-year-old is even more problematic. He’s on a whole different plane of maturity (and he’s not accountable in nearly the same way you are for knowing what is and isn’t acceptable at work).

Also, you’re in HR! I hope that means you’re doing benefits administration or comp analysis or similar — because if you do anything related to legal compliance or investigations or employee counseling, you’re torpedoing your credibility and trustworthiness in your job as well. You may have already forfeited your ability to be seen as fair or impartial if someone needs to report harassment or other inappropriate behavior.

If you do work in those areas of HR, your judgment here — and especially your response after a colleague pointed out the problems — is indicative of some serious deficiencies in your understanding of foundational concepts in your field, and I’d urge you to do some serious soul-searching about what’s required to make your behavior and judgment line up with what’s needed in that work. This isn’t “I occasionally have do some data entry for my job and I’m not great at it.” This is “I violate the rules I am charged with enforcing, don’t realize when I’m doing it, and may harm others who rely on me to keep their workspace safe and legal.” It’s soul-searching, “am I in the right field?” territory.

If you do that soul-searching and come out of it with an understanding of why all of this is a problem and a resolve to do better, you should be able to move forward (although you’ll need to do some reputation repair at work, as well as righting things with Andre). But you have to do that work.

Also … you didn’t write in asking for marriage advice, but the relevant question there isn’t whether your husband “needs” to know about Andre. It’s whether you’d be comfortable if he did.

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  1. My Boss is Dumber Than Yours*

    I usually have something witty I want to say after each thread (and usually restrain myself to stay off moderation), but I can’t even with this one. Op, you have truly made me understand speechless.

    1. KayDeeAye*

      My exact reaction is difficult to convey in mere letters in a comment box, but it would be something like this: Aaaaaaaaauuuugh! No, no, no, no, no, no, NO.

      1. highbury house*

        My response to the headline was ‘oh, certainly the coworker’s right’, without even reading the piece. And the nooooooooo just got bigger and bigger each line I read.

        1. Hills to Die on*

          I read the headline thinking that Jane needs to MYOB. No, Jane is spot on and this is not harmless. I heartily second the advice to take a look at whether this is the right career path for you. A few sessions of counseling could provide you with a way to bounce this off of an objective professional safely.

          1. MCMonkeyBean*

            Yeah, I feel like we’ve had letters with similar titles before and in those cases the coworkers were overreacting. But I’m actually pretty impressed with how Jane has handled this.

            OP, this is definitely not okay.

            1. Coder von Frankenstein*

              Agreed. The LW is asking for advice on how to explain to Jane that cliffs are perfectly safe and it’s rude to throw ropes at people.

          2. Works in IT*

            Yeah, my experience with men who automatically assume I’m flirting with *them* when I’m positive and cheerful with *everyone* had me thinking maybe the coworker was reading more into the situation than was actually there. Instead, it kind of feels like there’s more to the situation than the coworker is reading into it!

            1. Archie Goodwin*

              That’s exactly where I was expecting this to go.

              Boy, I wish I had been right.

              Reading this letter horrified me for SO MANY reasons.

            3. NotAnotherManager!*

              This was my expectation as well, but, oh, boy, did that expectation take a turn into the WTF-no-listen-to-Jane rather quickly.

              I mean the printer toner comment alone would have merited a nope-nope-nope conversation from me. My HR lead would die on the spot if anyone on her team had the poor judgment to engage in that sort of banter with anyone, let alone a student employee.

            4. Elbereth*

              I thought that at first too. But, oh my…
              Much of the “we” language seems off. But the kicker is that she *knows* exactly what that there is a problem and it sits squarely with her: “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”
              Of course it’s relevant. That’s why the OP said it at all. She just doesn’t *want* it to be relevant, and so dismisses it.

            5. Midnight Mother*

              Yes to this. It started reading like a Lifetime movie. Icky on all kinds of levels. And for the record, I used to work with a married man who flirted outrageously with another female co-worker to the point that he would stroke her hair during departmental meetings! No one said a thing! It was like I was the only one seeing it!

              1. Ego Chamber*

                Ewww. I can handle some borderline flirting at work, like whatever as long as it’s friendly/not predatory and there’s no intention behind it (I admit this makes no sense besides dealing in profoundly toxic environments when I couldn’t quickly extricate myself), but no touchy. Gross.

            6. Quill*

              Yeah, as soon as I read that the person being flirted with was male I’m like “this is going to be another case of women can’t be friendly, isn’t it… oh no…. nope… you said WHAT?”

          3. RabbitRabbit*

            Same here. I was like ‘oh surely it can’t be that bad’ and actually, no, it was miles worse. Like, wanting to look away because it just kept getting worse.

          4. ExcelNerd*

            Honestly, I think the co-worker “Jane” should file a report with another HR person about this. Other employees can file reports even if behavior between two other people makes them feel uncomfortable. And “Andre” is only 18! He may not have enough work experience to know how inappropriate this is. For an HR person to be giving the green light to this behavior is wrong on so many levels, and sounds rather predatory, like casting couch/child molester grooming.

            1. Black Horse Dancing*

              While this is greatly inappropriate, Andre is an adult and has agency. This is nowhere near child molesting. This is a senior employee making vulgar comments with a junior employee.

              1. Anona Nonna*

                Respectfully disagree. A legal adult status does not confer an emotional/mental adult status. The difference between a legal minor and a legal adult is 24 hours. You do not gain enough maturity to deal with predatory and grooming behavior in 24 hours. An adult who has 40+ years of lived experience under their belt should not flirt with someone who only has 18 years of lived experience. Furthermore, this goes beyond “junior” and “senior” employees. One is a student, there to learn about the job. The other is a person in power, and who explicitly holds that power over the student.

                1. Nyxee*

                  Agreeeeeed. Our brains do not stop developing from adolescence until we are 25. Would I go so far as to call it molestation? No, but that doesn’t mean this behavior in a work setting is ok. Regardless of his age, @ExcelNerd is correct. LW is in HR and should know that sexual harassment can be reported by Jane to another member of HR if LW and Andre’s actions make her feel uncomfortable. I wonder if that is the root of why LW is grasping for validation?

                2. YouCanGoHomeAgain*

                  Yes, exactly this. The age gap alone is makes this extremely icky. The fact that she’s in HR makes it even worse. It needs to stop and NOW!

                4. ???*

                  This can be predatory without being akin to child molestation, come on.

                  A related side note, @Nyxee, I’d like to push back on the “our brains aren’t fully developed until we’re 25” line. It might be technically true, but socially and legally we’re considered adults at 18. Granting additional support structures to people under 25 is probably kind and reasonable, but treating them as though they can’t be trusted to know their own minds is patronising. An insistence on casting young adults as children who need to be sheltered can be abusive too.

                5. Glitsy Gus*

                  Agreed. Also, I mean, at the core of it as well, he’s an 18-year-old in an internship. He is supposed to be learning how to behave appropriately in the workplace! You are not teaching him that, you are teaching him how to be the weird, creepy guy who flirts inappropriately.

                  I probably wouldn’t go so far as to compare this with molestation, but you ARE warping his perception of appropriate norms and behaviour so you can continue to have your fun time, which is the basic idea behind grooming, so just knock it off already. And don’t ever let a subordinate, especially an intern(!!!), pay for your coffee. You treat or pay your own way.

              2. KayDeeAye*

                No…it’s a senior employee allowing (encouraging? delivering? all three things?) inappropriate comments and behavior to someone even more junior than a junior employee – to an intern! To someone right out of freakin’ high school!

                Something doesn’t have to be literally illegal in order to be predatory, and this, my friend, is predatory. I mean, it’s not illegal for a high school teacher to bed someone one month after that person graduates from that high school, either – but that’s predatory, too.

                1. AKchic*

                  Someone who might still be in high school, depending on the intern program (summer school, extended high school program, etc.)

              3. Emmanuel Macron*

                I agree with Black Horse Dancing. The issue is that this is happening in a workplace with an HR person. If Andre didn’t work there, well, he’s past the age of majority, and it would be no one’s business.

                2. Sabina*

                  Yep, if she’d met Andre in the wild and struck up a flirtatious friendship that bordered a little bit on the creepy, that would be one thing. He would be free to walk away. But, MY GOD, he has to work with this woman and needs to build work experience to put on a resume and most likely needs the income to pay for school. It’s an outrageous power imbalance.

          5. Wendy Darling*

            Me too! I was like, oh, they’re just friendly, this is fine and Jane needs to stop clutching her pearls… for the first part of the letter. And then I got to ‘I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.”’ and basically screamed continuously (inside my heart) for the rest of the letter.

            That is not appropriate, LW, you are in HR, what are you doing???

            1. Not A Girl Boss*

              Yeah that was my guess too. But then, nope. For once I’m with Jane and her pearls.

              The part that took it from “noooo….” To “stop this train I want off!” was when she said they’ve “gotten more comfortable with physical touch.” I cannot imagine a time in my career where I would describe physical touch with a co-worker as something I’d be comfortable with. Maybe like, 2 coworkers-turned-best-friends who I now hug as a greeting out of the office. But letting him hold her arm as they walked out of the park? WHAT!? I AM AGHAST!

            2. Gail Davidson Durst*

              I also screamed internally more and more. And for the record I enjoyed your reference to 2020 Japanese roller coaster standards here!

              1. Wendy Darling*

                I genuinely think that went viral because we had all been screaming inside of our hearts for most of 2020 already and it gave a name to what we have been feeling. :D

          6. Happy Pineapple*

            I was fully expecting this to be another letter where a judgmental coworker was deeming any friendly communication with the opposite sex as “flirting.” Then I was hoping OP was only a few years older, maybe a 22 year old who was fresh out of school and still learning how to act at work.

            Now I’m just shocked. In no world is it okay for a grown woman to be touching and flirting with a teenager.

        2. Traffic_Spiral*

          Ha! Yeah, that was pretty much my exact response as well. Like, I don’t even have full words for my response to this. It sorta started as “umm….” and then went to a low-pitched “nooo…” and then to a slightly-higher-pitched “Nooo…” and just every sentence was a more concerned “NOOOOO!!!”

          Seriously, lady, WTF? Just… no!

          1. Robin Ridley*

            Exactly how I felt. Oh, coworker is overreacting to OMG! What are you thinking?

            1. Coffee Bean*

              Yup. Holy Good Grief LW. You need to listen and listen good to Jane. You judgement is askew.

        3. Works in IT*

          My response to the headline was “…maybe the coworker’s someone who doesn’t think men and women are capable of interacting without flirting?

          Then, as someone who has been teased frequently for missing apparently obvious flirting cues, I was shocked at the abundance of casual touching and descriptions of flirtatious lines that were so obvious, I got them. This isn’t even a case of two employees at the same level flirting with each other. This is someone who is IN HR, at a significantly higher level than the STUDENT EMPLOYEE, who is just starting out in his career and has no experience with how to deal with this. Particularly since it’s coming from someone in HR!

          This needs to stop.

          1. Spencer Hastings*

            Yeah, I thought from the headline that this was going to be like that old letter where someone wanted to stop a female work/study student at a university from having ordinary conversations with married male grad students. This was…not like that.

            3. Sparrow*

              Yes! I was half-expecting a reprint of that letter when I clicked. And then I assumed OP was fresh out of college, not someone twice this guy’s age and far too experienced to claim this kind of ignorance about work-appropriate behavior…

            4. Anonys*

              I think Jane didn’t necessarily have to bring up “What would your husband say” thing, though I don’t think it’s really bad that she did. But this is just so wrong regardless of OP having a husband, like that’s just not what the issue is here.

              In fact, even if the intern wasn’t an intern but OP’s husband or boyfriend, these interactions would still be SO INAPPROPIATE in a work environment. I don’t want to hear anyone in the office joke about rough sex, no matter with whom, no matter if they are on the phone to their SO. With comments like that, it doesn’t even matter who it’s directed at, just saying the words is inappropiate That it’s an 18 year old intern just adds an extra layer of “Super bad, lawsuit incoming”.

              1. valentine*

                Jane didn’t necessarily have to bring up “What would your husband say” thing
                While this usually ends up in the sexist territory of “Your husband wouldn’t approve,” where it’s useful and where Jane was going, since OP doubled down with every example, is more like, “Had your husband gone to lunch with you, would you have been happy to let Andre hold your arm on the way back?” Because if your behavior is professional, it doesn’t matter if you’re alone and certainly doesn’t depend on your spouse not knowing.

                Switching the genders might also help OP see she’s all kinds of wrong.

                1. Alice's Rabbit*

                  Agreed. If you wouldn’t do it in front of your spouse (assuming spouse had the proper security clearance to attend your job) you shouldn’t do it at work. Period.
                  Heck, you probably shouldn’t do it at all. But especially not at work.

              2. NowI'mHungry*

                I think it’s likely that Jane did that as a “gut check” for OP since OP wasn’t responding rationally to Jane’s other reasons. I can imagine Jane was hoping the OP would recognize that she wouldn’t want her husband to know about her contact with Andre and realize that’s because their relationship is inappropriate. Clearly, that didn’t work…

              3. Quill*

                Yeah, like… When you’re 18 you probably don’t have those boundaries with your friends yet but OP has had DECADES to establish them, especially at work.

            5. PNW Dweller*

              Yes! I was double checking to see if this was an update. Like Allison, my hope is this HR person does metrics and not people. This is insane, the leg comment? An Oh My from George Takei seems appropriate to interject here.

          3. Sparkles McFadden*

            Yes, this was a…surprise. I was actually glad when I got to the end of the post because it just kept getting worse as it went along.

            It’s hard to believe that the OP could write this out without cringing.

            Kudos to Jane for saying what needed to be said.

        4. Observer*

          I was thinking more in line with “She told me to stop flirting with my coworker, but we’re not flirting / that’s my SO” (We actually had one like that a while ago.)

          Then I started reading it and.. noooooooo. Jane is only possibly wrong in not having brought this to someone higher up in the food chain already.

          1. Empress Grandma*

            OP, as an HR professional, you should know better. Your actions are inappropriate and you must know that, or did you somehow skip the mandatory sexual harassment training, which describes virtually all of your interactions with Andre. Wow.

        5. FormerFirstTimer*

          Honestly, from the headline I thought that it would be a misunderstanding or over-reaction on the coworkers part. It’s so, so not!

      2. The Vulture*

        Each paragraph was a new experience, for me it went somewhat like this:
        Hm
        Hmmm
        Ahhhhhhhhh
        AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
        OOF, YOU HAVE THE WRONG TAKE, JANE IS COMPLAINING, THIS IS WEIRD AND BAD
        OH NO
        OH HONEY NO, WRONG QUESTION, WRONG PLACE TO BE, CHANGE COURSE IMMEDIATELY

      3. GreyjoyGardens*

        I actually went “oh NO NO NO” and my cat looked at me like “what?” No flirting with eighteen-year-old employees. Nosirreebob. Not even if you were NOT in HR. Nope, nopity nope, bring out the Nopetopus.

    2. AngryAngryAlice*

      SAME!!! It was all bad, but when I got to the toner convo I GASPED. What on EARTH does LW think they’re doing!?!?!?!?! This is so icky and so creepy and SO INAPPROPRIATE. It would be that way regardless of their ages and LW’s position in HR, but both of those things make it so. much. worse. My shoulders are all the way up to my ears here.

      When I was 19, I interned in a congressional office. I thought I was hot shit, and I started flirting with a staffer twice my age. I should’ve known better, but he REALLY should have shut me down immediately. Instead, he participated and encouraged it. It was all fun and games until it wasn’t, and I realized one day what was happening and how gross it was. I felt so uncomfortable the rest of my time there, and I desperately wish that he had completely stopped the situation before it began. I was a 19yo learning office norms for the first time, and he was a trusted long-time staffer with lots of power and influence. It was gross, and it was his job to stop it. It’s also LW’s job to stop this now. I can’t believe they’re defending their behavior, ESPECIALLY as an HR rep. Disgusting.

      1. MusicWithRocksIn*

        I was reading this thinking the OP was like a 25 year old who is still kind of new to office norms and was actually thinking of or wanting to date this dude. Then I got to 40 something and married and my brain did this dramatic braking noise and the whole thing spun wildly out of control. I have been around older male colleges doing this stuff with the 18 year old interns and it is so gross and I loose all respect for them. I have also been around people who call themselves work spouses who think it’s all in good fun to flirt like this, and yes – it still makes me super uncomfortable to overhear over a cube wall. And it really does lead way to all kinds of hurt feelings if people’s boundaries are even slightly different.

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, the “work spouse” thing in this context makes things so much worse. The OP’s insistence that this is all “private” and no one notices and no one is being made uncomfortable is just SOOO bad, that I have to wonder what else she’s “overlooking”.

          1. WellRed*

            I didn’t understand how she could say “private” makes it OK with a straight face. OP, if you two are banging in the supply closet it’s still wrong if it’s “private.”
            My god, I was squicked out just when she let him pay for coffee, cringing that he helped her up, and cringing harder that he HELD YOUR ARM on the way back to the office. The rest of it? I can’t even.

            1. JSPA*

              Paying for coffee, in itself, can be harmless. “Let him” is already weird; if I’ve left my wallet in my jacket and a coworker says, “don’t worry, I’ll get this” or the line is long and so one person catches the order for everyone, it’s not a “let” or “not let,” because there’s no dating-style dynamic.

              Add “held my upper arm until we’d left the park,” and that’s just way too personal and touchy-feely.

              OP, On some level, you know it’s not OK. Think: why would he have felt the need to release your arm, and why would you have felt obliged to mention it, if him holding your arm were just something helpful and professionally OK?

              If you’d said, “I have a balance disorder, that acts up, and I was really unsteady on my feet after drinking a cold soda too fast, and he helpfully steadied me until I felt more steady,” that’s one thing. But work friends don’t hold arms, hold hands, or brush body parts against each other intentionally; that’s a flirtation dynamic, or an erotically-charged-undefined-relationship dynamic.

              Whether or not this counts as “cheating” is between you and your spouse. Whether it counts as “sexually-tinged interaction in the workplace” is a very nearly unrelated question. Especially if you’re HR, especially if you’re older, especially if the other person is barely an adult by law, especially if you outrank the other person, especially if they have to work with you, this is not just unprofessional but a potential huge liability for your employer, and a potential “let go and do not rehire” for you.

              I get that it can feel a lot safer, as far as your marriage, to flirt at work, because you know you’ll never “really do anything.” But that’s the wrong framing for the situation. Think about it: your husband, if so inclined, can choose to be OK with you doing whatever level of flirting you want. Your workplace can’t. And shouldn’t. And clearly, won’t.

              Buy the clue you’re coworker has offered you: no matter how mutual it feels (or even how mutual at the moment it is); no matter how strong a limit you’re sure there is; no matter how great you feel; no matter how much more fun work is, when it’s flirty place, not your workplace; this is not something you should be doing, and it’s not something you can excuse.

              1. Not A Girl Boss*

                +1000.

                You have no right to privacy at work. So, by definition, this is not a private matter.

              2. Jo*

                It’s all part of the power dynamic, though. There’s a reason why it’s standard practice for senior employees or supervisors to pay for junior/subordinate employees and not the other way around. That alone makes it weird, but with all the other stuff together in context it’s just so icky.

                1. Amaranth*

                  So true. She already has authority over him in the company, and absolutely no sense on professional appearances. And he seems to have considered it more of a date than a work break, paying her way, holding her arm, etc. I’ve also never had a coworker help me out of a chair except when I was pregnant….

            2. Annette*

              Yes WellRed. OP needs to PTB (pump the brakes). Gifts flow upwards. Even coffee. If I take out a student worker – I treat. But don’t touch!

          2. MassMatt*

            I’ve always disliked that term and wondered whether it was just a bad term for people that work closely with one another and communicate well or if it meant this pair are not observing appropriate work boundaries. This letter hits the jackpot on the latter.

            The cognitive dissonance of the LW is amazing. What’s next, “harmless nuzzling” in the elevator? Tickling his ear at the photocopier? Swapping underwear? And she thinks her COWORKER isn’t understanding “relationship nuances”?!

            1. AKchic*

              Jane understands relationship nuances very well, indeed. Jane understands them so well that she is throwing LW a lifeline here and begging her to safe herself.

              1. Amaranth*

                I’m pretty sure Jane is on the ‘talk to your coworker before you report to HR’ portion of this intervention and the next step is pending.

            2. The Rules are Made Up*

              I feel like people streeetcchhh the Work Spouse thing. Your Work Spouse saves you food when there’s leftovers in the conference room and shares looks with you when your other coworker says something stupid. You probably go to lunch and joke and whatnot but if you’re flirting THIS heavily about rough sex and complimenting each other’s body parts……. you’re just in the beginning stages of an emotional affair my friend.

              1. Quill*

                Yeah, OP appears not to want to stop because this makes her feel sexy. It ain’t just getting emotionally close to someone!

          3. Anonys*

            Also it’s 100% not private. I mean, the toner convo and the legs comment are literally two things jane OVERHEARD. There is defo way more to this and way more instances of grossness Jane wasn’t privy too.

            What really made me laugh in the letter was: “Nobody’s complaining”. Well, hello, JANE IS complaining! That’s what the whole letter is about. And so would I, if I had to listen to coworkers “joke” about rough sex. The fact that more people haven’t already complained makes me wonder if OP learned her horrible norms right in her office.

            1. Artemesia*

              No one ever complains about dollar dances at weddings, or tasteless clothing, or most rude comments etc etc. Most people avoid confrontation and ‘don’t say anything’ even when people do egregiously inappropriate things like saying something racist. Most people don’t complain. This is never the standard for whether something is the right things to do.

              I would if I were the VP in charge of HR, fire this person. It isn’t a slight misstep, it is howlingly over the line and the fact that she is in HR makes it worse. I wonder if Jane wrote the letter as I have trouble believing that anyone in HR would describe their own behavior this way and act as if it were acceptable.

              1. Oxford Commas & Tequila*

                I complain about dollar dances at weddings. Just to my husband. Not to the happy couple. But I HATE the dollar dance!

                1. Jemima Bond*

                  So true. From the boss whose best (and very deserving) employee quit after not being allowed to go to her own hard-won graduation, to the boss who “unmanaged”, to the employee who thought her manager had no business “interfering in my work”, to the boss who deprived one employee of a day off because her birthday was on 29th Feb…

              3. beast368*

                I also suspect that Jane wrote the letter. No one describes their behavior in that way, especially being as detailed as Andre touching her arm as he was helping her stand from sitting on the bench. Every interaction highlighted in OP’s letter is one that Jane observed.
                Not that I blame Jane as OP’s behavior is highly inappropriate, but this feels like a situation where Jane will show “OP” the column.

          4. Alice's Rabbit*

            Yeah, OP doesn’t seem to understand what the term “work spouse” means. It is not romantic or flirtatious in any way. It just means that there’s someone at work who you spend so much time with – and happen to get along with – that they become a significant part of your life. Any story about work inevitably involves them, and they’re the first person you introduce your spouse to at the company picnic.
            It does NOT mean someone who you flirt with, or touch, or have sexual jokes with.

            1. allathian*

              Yes, this, so much. I mention my “work spouse” coworker to my husband quite often, and I’d definitely introduce them to each other if there was an oppportunity to do so, but my employer doesn’t do +1 company events. I admit that when he started working for us, I had a bit of a crush on him. He’s a huggy person and not exactly unattractive, so the only line I maybe crossed there was that I let him hug me on my birthday, in front of other people. The other people on my team hugged me, too, but they’re all women and I’m cishet so that didn’t count.
              Normally I’m not a hugger at work or anywhere else…

        2. AKchic*

          Right?!
          Especially when mentioning that it made her feel “…more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant”. Um, excuse me? Yes, yes that is very much relevant. In fact, I’d say that is probably the most relevant part of this whole thing. Why? Because it colors all of the other interactions and her reactions to scrutiny and how she’s avoiding the subject with her spouse.
          If this were as harmless as she’s trying to make it out with Jane, then her husband would either already know, or she wouldn’t have any issues with him knowing. If it were harmless banter, she wouldn’t be trying to hide it from the rest of the staff. She knows it’s not harmless because it is sexually-charged innuendo and therefore not appropriate for work. She has a crush (hey, it happens), and Andre, being young, is absolutely following her lead when it comes to workplace behavior.

          Workplace spouses can be workplace spouses without innuendo and making others feel uncomfortable. This feels more like unconsummated pantsfeels than workplace spouses and Jane is trying her hardest to be tactful, and I think LW should really be appreciative of Jane’s tact and discretion in this matter.

          1. Wednesday of this week*

            +1 that the LW’s feeling attractive is probably the most relevant factor involved, likely driving all of her bad decisions re Andre. Almost every time someone has sexual misconduct at work, one of their explanations for it is that the other party made them feel more attractive than they had before.

            1. WantonSeedStitch*

              This. This, this, this exactly. People who are feeling blah about themselves as they get older and who feel like their spouse doesn’t appreciate them? Yeah, that’s how almost every story starts that ends with “I made some really, really poor decisions that ended up messing up my life.” OP, you need to STOP, put distance between you and Andre IMMEDIATELY, and start acting like a professional at work. Do the soul-searching about your job that Alison recommended. And then find yourself a good therapist and marriage counselor to work on feeling happier in your own life.

              1. Alice's Rabbit*

                Yes. OP is already at step 5 on the “How An Affair Starts” checklist. She needs to put the brakes on right now. She has gone far enough that this has already damaged her professional credibility, and is clearly in denial. But she is not so far down the path that she can’t back up and fix things, so long as she does it now. Right now. Immediately, this second.

              2. PeanutButter*

                Yes, the people over my working life who I could have said were my “work-spouses” never made my feel *physically* attractive. They made me feel more competent and *professionally* “attractive” (wrong term but I can’t think of a better one) because we worked together so well and knew each other’s styles/habits/preferences so that our synergy made us productivity powerhouses when we were on the same team.

                1. Glitsy Gus*

                  I like the phrase “professionally attractive.” It makes perfect sense to me and, yeah, that is exactly what my work husband does for me. He pumps me up at work about work things and reminds me that I’m really good at what I do when I start to question myself. He does make me feel professionally attractive and I try to do the same for him.

            2. Marzipan Shepherdess*

              Yes, Andre may well have made the LW feel more attractive – but does anyone else wonder what Andre himself is thinking and feeling about all this? If he’s picked up on the LW’s flirtatious behavior (which he almost certainly has!), how does this look to HIM? Unless 18 year old men have changed drastically over the past fifty years, it’s very unlikely that he’s as thrilled by the LW’s behavior as she is by his. In fact, I think it’s far more likely that he’s joking about this to his friends: “Hey, you’ll never believe what’s been happening at my new job – there’s this old gal who’s been coming on to me! I mean, she’s old enough to be my mother and she thinks she’s hot stuff. Maddy was kidding me about it the other day and I told her she had absolutely zip reason to be jealous. We had a good laugh about that!” etc., etc.

              LW, please put the energy you’ve been expending on this attempted emotional affair into your marriage, act your age, and most of all, act like someone in your professional position – which does NOT include making a fool of yourself over someone young enough to be your kid!

              1. Jennifleurs*

                Yes, I showed my younger brother this (25) and he commented that apparently most guys he knows have a story about the time they started flirting with an older woman “to be polite” and she wouldn’t let it stop and they ended up feeling endlessly uncomfortable.

                1. Quill*

                  Yeah, in high school when I worked at a ren faire I had three different guys attempt to use me as a fake girlfriend so some chick in her late 20’s who made jokes about giving them an eighteenth birthday present would leave them the heck alone.

                  Just because you might appreciate the way someone looks or be thrilled that someone is paying you a lot of attention doesn’t mean that this is a good idea.

                2. AKchic*

                  oh Quill, I am so sorry that happened to your friends.

                  As a rennie, I hate to hear when any actor does that kind of thing.

              2. DiscoCat*

                I understand where this comes from but let’s not dive too far into how gross older women are for younger men. It feeds into stereotypes we’re trying to stamp out. LW’s behaviour is hugely inappropriate by violating several workplace norms and laws.

                1. Amaranth*

                  Good point. Also, if he asked her to coffee and is acting chivalrous, he might find this a real ego boost, not thinking of the professional implications. After all, if it was a professional issue, the HR person would know and set him straight, right? (or he could enjoy the thrill of feeling slightly illicit or totally be intimidated, just there is a lot of room for reaction on his part)

          2. Vina*

            I think someone should really examine whether or not this would come off as a mid-life crisis to an outsider. Because, to me, as a casual observer, this looks exactly like the type of mid-life behavior that leads to destroyed marriages and eviscerated careers. It goes quickly from “this is a harmless ego boost” to “we had no intention of starting a physical affair.”

            The attractive line is a red flag if ever there was one.

            LW, you have agency in this. Your behavior is not harmless to you, to the young man, to your spouse. Please, please listen to the posters here.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              +1 to this, and WantonSeedStitch, and Wednesday of this week, and AKChick.

              ‘Midlife crisis’ is exactly where my brain went.

              OP, your ego’s been unhappy for a while, and now it’s getting a boost. But you can NOT do this to Andre, and should not do this to yourself.
              1) You’re teaching Andre that it’s ok to make sexual jokes at work. It’s not. You are harming him and his future career by doing this.
              2) You’re heading for professional disaster, if this situation and those comments (that toner convo – omg) come to the attention of your bosses.
              3) You’re heading for some serious problems in your marriage

              The place to work these out is in therapy, not at work. Try to figure out why the emotional contrast between ‘before flirting’ and ‘after flirting’ is so great, and how to feed your self-esteem in a healthy way.

              Thank Jane for giving you a reminder about professional behavior, let her know that you’ll be working to prevent any problems in the future, and then follow up on that by gently shutting Andre down and never pulling this with another co-worker again.

              1. Lizzo*

                ^^This.

                OP, if you carry on like this, it’s going to screw up a LOT of things for you. I speak from the experience of having been a little ways down this road before. A little bit of hurt now to rip the band aid off and change course is going to save you a LOT of pain in the long run. It’s also going to prevent others (e.g. Andre and his career) from being harmed in your potentially destructive wake.

                1. Lizzo*

                  And I should clarify that the experience I speak of does not involve 1) 20 year age gaps or 2) anyone under the age of 30.

                2. Vina*

                  Lizzo,

                  I hope you get to where you are able to be completely healed and that whomever else was hurt is able to do so.

                  Unfortunately, as I’m sure you know, sometimes there is no healing. Only learning to cope.

                  I cannot imagine the sort of damage this affair would do to the husband. There has to be some form of gaslighting going on, given the level of self-deceit and denial evidenced in this letter.

                  Affairs are not harmless. That doesn’t mean that all sex outside marriage is bad. But where there is deceit and self-deceit and salving pain through sex or other “highs” instead of dealing with personal or relationship issues, I don’t see positives.

                  It also doesn’t mean that people who go down this route are “bad” or irredeemable. That depends entirely upon what lesson one learns from it.

                  I don’t know what you did, but it sounds like you came out of this with a lot more self-awareness than you had when whatever happened started. That’s so, so commendable.

                  Sigh. We are so screwed up about sexual relationships, about self-worth, about gender, about psychological health. So many people make the same mistakes over and over because we don’t have social dialogue and we don’t teach people how to cope, how to have healthy psyches, how to have healthy relationships.

                  I wish I could say your advice was something I’d never heard nor scene. I wish we humans could learn and avoid this pain.

                  Even if what you did was objectively horrible, you have my sympathy now. Because it seems you have learned and grown and won’t let it happen again.

                  That doesn’t seem possible for the LW b/c she’s not even denying she’s got a problem.

                  *Jedi Hugs* from across the void.

                3. Lizzo*

                  Thanks @Vina! It all worked out OK in the end. There was no destructive wake, thankfully, those involved were consenting adults, and it truly didn’t get very far (relatively speaking).

                  The worst of the pain was from addressing what caused the issue in the first place, and the very positive self-transformation that followed, which took years. The really good news is dealing with all the grief, anger, sadness, low self-confidence, and a million other things related to the experience also helped excavate older versions of these emotions. A very significant housecleaning, if you will. It’s so refreshing to be on the other side of that!

                  We spend so much time as women pushing things away or stuffing them down, all in the name of being perceived as nice, likeable, attractive, confident, unselfish, “normal” (whatever the hell that is), not willing to rock the boat, etc. etc. etc. You can’t keep that stuff buried–you’ll eventually crack from the pressure and make poor choices about how to patch up those cracks.

                  Appreciate the jedi hugs! Returning them to you, fully sanitized, from a safe distance.

                4. MeToo*

                  Sounds like some good came out of it all for you, Lizzo.

                  What happened to the other party? Do you still work together and did the message get through to him or does he still hold a torch?

                5. Lizzo*

                  @MeToo: Good questions. I’ll see if I can be succinct in my responses, with the benefit of hindsight.

                  No, we no longer work together, though we were working together indirectly at the time of the problem. I’ll also add that this is not a friend(ship) that was hidden from my spouse.

                  Although we both recognized there was a problem at the time, we had different ways of dealing with the problem. My solution: let’s actually *talk* and determine why our friendship was suddenly where it was at (we were each dealing with our own emotional crap at the time that was compounding our attachment), and then figure out a new “way of being” in the friendship and in our working relationship (which was very valuable to both of us). We started talking, but then he implemented his solution: ghosting.

                  Does he still hold a torch? For the friendship, maybe. I haven’t spoken to him in a long time. I’ll be honest, I was devastated that after having had a trustworthy friend and colleague for years, I was kicked to the curb like a piece of trash. There are ways to deal with challenging things in life (!!!OMGemotions!!!) that may cause some pain, but are at least respectful of all involved parties. I was not shown respect. The wonderful outcome of processing my grief and sadness is that I don’t have time in my life for people who are disrespectful–especially those whose disrespectful actions are driven by fear. Life’s too short to be sucked into that drama.

          3. Atalanta0jess*

            YES. That feeling is INCREDIBLY relevant. That feeling is the writer’s warning sign that things are not what they should be. It is her warning sign that she is at major risk here, because her feelings are leading her to do things she should not do. It is the exact kind of thing that leads you astray.

            People very often make these kinds of mistakes not because they are awful people, but because they get caught up, they take small steps down a bad path (and those small steps add up…), and they trick themselves into thinking it’s ok. You have to know the red flags that pop up before you get there, because that’s how you stop yourself. And that feeling, which the writer has dismissed as irrelevant, is one of those very relevant red flags.

        3. Infiniteschrutebucks*

          Same! I was picturing a 24 year old who is also fairly new herself. When I got to the 40s and married portion I was horrified. The really sad part is she’s hurting the intern and she doesn’t even care. This is completely warping his views of office norms and could get him in SERIOUS trouble if he takes flirtatious behavior to his first full time spot/subsequent employers. This could also affect whether the company is willing to give him a good reference, which at this stage matters a lot. She’s actively harming him because she enjoys the attention, which tells me she has no business hiring people or being in a leadership or mentorship position at this point. When I was a little older than him I was a young female engineer, the only woman in the office besides the admin, and I had to put up with all kinds of looks, comments, and flirtations with a silent, fake smile on my face because we were in the middle of the great recession and entry level spots were very scarce. Welp, we’re in the middle of a pandemic where many companies have nixed internships. LW, you may perceive this as “mutual”, but even if it is the power and authority dynamics here to the scales heavily away from this kid and towards you. Stop this immediately.

      2. Akcipitrokulo*

        Exactly.

        Teen student workers are not always making good choices – and they are LEARNING what is appropriate.

        Older, experienced colleagues higher in food chain have the absolute responsibility to shut it down.

        1. pope suburban*

          This. I am deeply disturbed by this as an adult ten years OP’s junior. I work with quite a few high schoolers and college students in my job. That we are working in theatre can make it harder for them to intuit appropriate boundaries, simply because we have to get comfortable with things like physical contact and doing quick costume changes backstage. And if any of them were to sidle up to that line, it’s not just my job to correct them, it’s what I consider to be an ethical duty to shut it down. I’m the adult, I know better, and I have to be the one to put a stop to it and teach them what’s appropriate. They all seem like babies to me anyway, so I’m extra-creeped out by this. I can’t imagine finding something like this thrilling.

          1. MassMatt*

            No, she is 20+ years his senior! More than double his age!

            I am not generally hung up on age differences but yikes, this is a student not even of legal drinking age!

            The behavior would be inappropriate even if he were also 40 and they were married, it doesn’t belong in the office, but the liability and bad ethics here compound the problem.

            1. Vina*

              Age gaps once someone is over 25 or so are one thing. He’s 18. He still has an adolescent brain.

              If he were 30 and she were 50 and this wasn’t at work and they weren’t married, well, more power to them.

              But 18 is still an adolescent. Maybe not a “child” but certainly not an “adult” in either brain function or life experience.

              I think that’s why everyone is recoiling on teh age. We intuitively know that 18 is too young. We may not know when “old enough” occurs, but we know when it’s below that line.

            2. pope suburban*

              She is, but I’m not. :’D

              You’re totally right, of course. What I’m relating here is that this creeps me out as someone who is closer to student-worker age than OP. Like, dang, it would be wrong for me, and it’s worse for her! Even before we get into her role in HR!

              1. Mama Bear*

                18 could also be college OR WORSE high school. I knew someone who was a former teacher who practically pounced on 18 yr olds because they were “legal”, nevermind they might still be in high school!

          2. drinking Mello Yello*

            This is what really all grosses me out about this. OP has over 20 years of experience as an adult. Andre has less than one year of experience as an adult. That difference in power alone is just… gross. Add in the HR rep (!!!! Seriously???) vs student worker thing and the balance of power is tipped sooooooo far in OP’s favor that this whole letter can be used as a case study of “Do No Ever Do This” in a 101 level textbook. Everything OP is doing in this situation is 50 kinds of wrong… :/

        2. GreyjoyGardens*

          THIS. The OP absolutely should know better, being the one with age and experience. This is NOPE NO NO NO on so many levels.

      3. Sparrow*

        Yes! In addition to all the other many, many reasons she should be shutting this down, think about what she’s teaching him about appropriate work behavior and what he might think is ok going into his next workplace. Yikes.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          +1 That was my first thought. OP is harming Andre by teaching him bad norms which is likely to cause him problems down the road. She has to stop, and it should include a gentle ‘Hey Andre, we’ve stepped over the professional line, and need to take a huge step back.’

    3. username required*

      Yup – she needs to keep her midlife crisis/marriage problems out of the workplace. I honestly don’t think this is salvageable for her – there is no way the rest of the dept aren’t aware of this. If I saw a HR rep behaving like this I would doubt their abilities/ethics – she could be leaving the company wide open to a harassment claim. Not to mention she’s teaching an 18 year old child that this behaviour is normal so imagine the problems Andre will have if he behaves like this in a new workplace.

      1. Vina*

        I wonder if her husband thinks there is a marriage problem. I wonder if he thinks that she feels unattractive. Problem 1.

        The target of her ego boost is 18. 18. That would be potentially problematic even if it weren’t in a work AND educational environment. Problems 2

        This is both work and school. She is potentially screwing up both for this young man. Problems 3 and 4.

        She is in denial about the nature of what she is doing and her own agency in the process. Problems 5 and 6.

        I am absolutely gobsmacked.

        1. GreyjoyGardens*

          I am gobsmacked too. This is inappropriate on all levels. If Jane were the one writing in we’d all be saying “holy cheap rolls, Batman, the HR employee is NOT OK and is behaving abominably.”

    4. Three Flowers*

      This letter is what reaction gifs were made for. No coherence, just over-the-top horrified faces.

    5. charo*

      All I can say is that I’m shocked it’s a FEMALE being so clueless. Other than the gender reversal, it’s pretty common “Midlife Crisis” stuff. Denial, Denial, Denial. And I think he knows exactly what he’s doing here, he’s playing her for his own advantage.

      1. Three Flowers*

        Nah, I don’t think we can assume he knows what he’s doing. He’s 18. I’m sure he’s enjoying the attention and feeling of insiderness, but 18-year-old boys, um, let’s say they don’t necessarily think strategically about this kind of stuff. She’s taking advantage of him 100%.

        1. Vina*

          I’m absolutely sure he thinks he’s going to get to treat her like he treated the copying machine.

          1. Akcipitrokulo*

            Possibly. And if he is… SHE is still the middle-aged predator taking advantage of a teenager.

        2. Threeve*

          Or he could be thinking very strategically. What special privileges does he expect this to get him?

          1. Threeve*

            Professionally, I mean–is she going to write him the most glowing recommendation ever when he leaves, even if it means stretching the truth? Is she going to give him preferential hiring when he graduates? Long-term “mentorship?” (Shudder).

            Lots of ways this kid could be playing a long game.

          2. Akcipitrokulo*

            Just because you know it’s a casting couch doesn’t mean you’re not the victim.

            2. Le Sigh*

              Yeah, I’m really uncomfortable with this line of discussion and where it could go. It’s not to say younger people have never played this game, but …. like, look at everything coming out of #metoo and what we learned about the women in those positions. His motives (whether real or just simple naivety) aren’t what’s relevant. OP is in the position of power here and she’s openly abusing it.

              1. Wintermute*

                yeah, all of this is SERIOUSLY grossing me out because if you reversed the genders no one would remotely, plausibly, within a million years think it’s okay. There would be a thousand-comment pileon about how it’s not okay to victim blame, that it’s really gross to assume the victim has ulterior motives, etc.

                1. Mama Bear*

                  Agreed. This is victim blaming. It’s gross. OP is the senior and under no circumstances is this appropriate.

                2. Jules the 3rd*

                  It’s victim blaming and gross, but if you reversed the genders you would also have people talking about an 18yo girl like they’re a prize for an older man / casting couch / sleeping her way to the top. There would *totally* be people thinking it’s ok.

                  They would be wrong, but they’re still out there.

              2. Le Sigh*

                +1 Jules, agreed to all of your points. I just wanted to flag this because sometimes people let themselves assume if it happens to people who identify as men that somehow it’s okay to go down this path — when they otherwise wouldn’t if it was a woman, and they’d be upset that at the obvious victim blaming. That because 18 yo guys are out to get laid, that this line of conversation is somehow different or okay?

                This conversation is not okay, regardless of sex and/or gender identification! It’s not! One more time for the cheap seats: HE’S 18 AND SHE’S A 40-SOMETHING HR PERSON.

                Sigh, sorry, just …. between this and the LW whose employees are upset they were put on new teams and are being labeled “contagious” during a PANDEMIC…..sigh.

      2. Vina*

        Denial, lack of agency. And some if this is straight from the mid-life crisis cheater’s script 101. For example:

        It’s not a problem b/c no one is being hurt. It’s harmless flirty.
        My husband doesn’t need to know for reasons.
        It’s nobody’s business other than me and the other person. My co-workers are just nosy or prudish.
        It’s not sexual, except for the fact it’s giving me an ego-boost and I make explicit sexual comments.
        The ego boost makes me feel alive.
        The age gap is completely irrelevant to this.

        I could go on, but it’s making my head explode. My b.s. translator is in danger of short-circuiting.

        1. Ethyl*

          The lack of agency stuck out to me too — lots of passive voice, making things seemed like they “just happened” or were explicitly Andre’s fault. No acknowledgement of her own choices every single step of the way. She is setting herself up for an “it just happened” sexual encounter (with a kid! who she supervises! and she works in HR!).

          1. Vina*

            People who talk about their lives in passive voice are often trying to shift blame away from themselves when they know they are acting in a harmful, unethical, or immoral fashion.

            It should always be a red flag.

            Affairs are not accidents. They are intentional. “It just happened” or “it was an accident” might be true of a car wreck. It’s not true of two adults flirting.

            2. Quill*

              “It just happened” is when I happen to put myself on a collision course with someone else’s stray basketball.

      3. Butterfly Counter*

        At 18, I would seriously doubt he has much thoughts of where this will lead in the long, long term beyond a physical relationship (which may be what you’re referring to). In other words, I doubt he’s trying to set up the LW into a sexual harassment suit to bilk her and the company out of thousands of dollars. And I would wonder how he thought this might benefit him, career-wise. I just think this is about flirting, attraction, and the possibility of this becoming physical.

        And women and men aren’t all that different when it comes to being “clueless” around sexual harassment in the workplace. In fact, because victims are usually coded “female” and because men are supposed to always be open to sex, no matter the dynamics involved, it may be much harder for people to see when genders are reversed from the “norm” of what we consider as sexual harassment.

        1. Amaranth*

          He also might conflate positive affirmation *at* work with feeling good about work itself. He goes to the office, a senior person pays him attention and treats him like an adult and praises his personality, his work, acts like he’s an insider, etc. Going to work is great! LW appreciates him, he’s a success! There is no way to know whether he is a bit naive or screaming on the inside because he can’t avoid this flirtatious senior employee; regardless, her behavior is terribly improper.

        1. S*

          So true. I enjoyed that show but the numerous, super inappropriate workplace dynamics on that show were cringeworty.

          1. Glitsy Gus*

            They were super cringe worthy but at the same time… I’ve worked at that company. It wasn’t quite so overt, but yeah, the “oh that dude actually is OK, tech dudes just say misogynistic stuff and mess with the women on the team for laughs… been there. The, ‘you only got that job/project because you are the female diversity hire’ heard that one. The working super long hours together that breeds a false intimacy that starts to go down weird roads, all of it. None of these are good or healthy but they are, sadly, common. It’s part of what I liked about the show, it’s reality expanded, obviously, but the dynamics were recognizable as a woman working in tech.

        1. Coder von Frankenstein*

          Agreed. Andre isn’t some kind of incubus. He’s an 18-year-old who is following unthinkingly where his libido is leading him. Which is exactly what LW is doing too, but she has the age and experience and authority here. She is the one who needs to shut it down, right now.

      6. Le Sigh*

        I’m not shocked at all. It’s less common, sure, but how many letters has Alison gotten on here about women bosses or co-workers being awful to pregnant or working moms? Or being crappy/sexist toward other women coworkers? Women are perfectly capable of pushing internalized sexism or abusing power, it’s just that women frequently aren’t the ones in power.

        Also, can we not assume he knows what he’s doing? I said this further down, but how many times have we seen that said about women in these positions? Yes, I’m sure some young people play this game, but this comment distracts from the real point, which is this: he’s 18, she’s in her 40s and in HR (i.e., SHOULD KNOW BETTER) and has professional power over him. Doesn’t matter what he thinks he’s doing or if he’s just naive — she’s blatantly abusing her power and if the genders were reversed, it would be just as gross.

        1. Vina*

          I think as we get more gender parity in the workplace at higher positions, you will see more of this from women unless there is a concerted effort to stop all this type of behavior in the workplace (i.e., systemic change about the norms of professionalism and consequences for breaking it).

          It’s not the Y chromosome, but the socialization, privilege, and social expectations that meant men did this more in past. Women didn’t have the opportunity and couldn’t have gotten away with it.

          Being abusive isn’t about maleness, whiteness, or heterosexuality, etc. as inherent traits. It’s all about socialization and privilege.

          Unfortunately, for a lot of people, gaining ground means exhibiting some of the worst behaviors that used to mark being a privileged white dude. It should mean we all treat each other better. For some, it means they get to be in the power seat.

          1. Morning Flowers*

            “Being abusive isn’t about maleness, whiteness, or heterosexuality, etc. as inherent traits. It’s all about socialization and privilege.”

            +10000000000

      7. Jules the 3rd*

        1) Andre didn’t make the ‘treat your dates like that’ comment, which was so far over the line it’s not even funny
        2) Even if Andre’s playing along or hoping to get something from this, OP is the one with the power here. OP’s the one with the age and maturity. OP’s the one who has the responsibility to shut down any unprofessional interactions, and she’s not.

        1. Observer*

          Exactly this – Andre could be a the most conniving sob in the world, but SHE is the one with all the power. Not that I think he is, but it REALLY, REALLY doesn’t matter. She could shut this down so fast his head would be spinning.

          But she is not. She is not only allowing it, she is ACTIVELY initiating it.

          1. Amaranth*

            I wonder if Jane will go to Andre next or straight to whoever actually works in HR.

    7. Lady Meyneth*

      I was suddenly reminded of the LW who wouldn’t let her best employee have time off for graduation (and was there ever an update to that?). Except this is somehow worse with all the sexual overtones!

      Seriously, OP, how clueless can you be that you can ever think this is ok? Please stop, you are harming both your own carreer and his chances at your company. And he may not even know his reputation is at stake here, he’s still a teen.

    10. Anonymity*

      I’m also speechless and wonder if this is a made up Mrs Robinson letter because I can’t imagine anyone professional being so absolutely clueless as to how this comes off. The whole tone is very disturbing and she speaks of this teenage boy as if he’s her lover. If it’s true she deserves to be fired. It’s gross AF and totally inappropriate and this kid may feel he has to keep it up to make her happy.

    11. Uldi*

      My face was the screaming in horror emoji from the “cafe not-date” onward.

      OP, Jane is 100% correct. Stop flirting. Stop the sexually charged jokes. Stop the touching(!). You need to take a step back before you cross the line* and find yourself in trouble with your own colleagues.

      *Just a heads up, but you might have already crossed that line in my opinion. If I were an HR rep looking into this and saw reports about the jokes and touching, I would be rather alarmed and would have called you in for a talk as soon as I had gotten over being flabbergasted that another HR team member was doing this.

    3. Row row row your boat*

      Yep. From my point of view, this is so clearly wrong that I’m shocked OP chose to defend the flirtation at all.

    4. Lynn*

      Honestly, we just had our annual mandatory sexual harassment training last week and this situation could have come right out of the vignettes we watched. I can’t imagine how someone who has been in the workforce for more than 10 minutes would find it defensible.

      2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        The very first sexual harrassment seminar that I attended when they had just become a thing (early 00s, manufacturing company) consisted pretty much of the trainer telling us stories from her 20+ years of work. The one and only story that I still remember went something like “I was the HR rep on the shop floor. A man and a woman worked the same shift and were friends. One time, as she was walking past him on the floor, she playfully slapped him on the rear. Someone else saw, felt uncomfortable, and called me. I had to sit both friends down and give them the talk about why workplace butt-slapping isn’t appropriate.”

        Y’all… in the 90s. On the shop floor. It was already inappropriate and was already squicking coworkers out there and then. So my jaw was on the floor when I saw OP talking about doing basically the same thing, but to someone half her age, that she is in a position of power to, in an HR setting, in 2020, and trying to convince us that this is okay and a normal interaction between work buddies! no it’s not, and OP and Andre are also not work buddies.

        1. Elbereth*

          I can speak to it already being a known issue in the 80’s on the shop floor in heavy industry, in Australia (which tends to be a bit behind the times with sexism).

        2. Penny Parker*

          In 1979 I went to my county agency (I forget the name of the agency as it has been a while, but a county agency which dealt with discrimination complaints) and filed an official discrimination complaint for sexual harassment because my manager at a *doughnut* shop* hit me on my ass. The agency tried to discourage me but I insisted on filing the complaint for statistical purposes (my sister was Chair of the County Board and encouraged me to do so). I quit the job for that, and the end result of filing the complaint is that my manager actually called me up to apologize.

          And this was in 1978.

          1. Penny Parker*

            1978/79, not quite sure which… it has been a while. I actually had forgotten this until reading this post. In 1984 I got a manager fired for verbal sexual harassment.

    6. Traffic_Spiral*

      “Dear Penthouse (barely-legal-edition): I never thought it would happen to me, but…”

      2. Vina*

        Actually, this reads exactly like a lot of the UBT letters on ChumpLady’s site.

        Spend some time reading what is said by people who get into these types of messy affairs and one sees that the same things are said over and over and over again.

    7. A First Rated Mess*

      I think this scenario is part of my company’s sexual harassment training! (And props to them for recognizing that sexual harassment comes in a variety of forms, no matter how cheesy the training video might be.)

    8. LKW*

      “But sexual harassment is only if I threaten his job right?”
      “No, in fact, sexual harassment is any behavior blah blah blah.”
      “Oh.”

      “We’re adults, shouldn’t adults be allowed to have their private conversations at work without interferement.”
      “As a member of the HR team, you need to be the model of good corporate behavior blah blah blah… everyone’s responsibility to be responsible.”
      “Oh”

      Really the mental gymnastics are impressive.

    10. Ana Gram*

      Where they literally tell you that third parties can complain about sexual harassment! Jane is that third party. She’s being sexually harassed by having to listen to sexual comments at work. Yeesh. How does the OP not know this stuff??

    11. Le Sigh*

      No kidding. Whenever I have to watch these, I always think, “Come on, this isn’t how it actually happens. This is so Mad Men obvious, who would just say it like that?”

      Well. Now I know.

    12. I Need That Pen*

      I was just thinking this – am I reading a real letter or “Chapter 4 – Inappropriate Everythingness in the Office” from a manual somewhere. This coming from someone who presumably schedules said trainings in HR. Oy.

  3. Environmental Compliance*

    “Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.” She has also heard Andre tell me on a separate occasion, “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.””

    Ick. So much ick. Triple the ick since *you’re HR!!!* flirting! with a *student employee!!!!*

    Also, OP – you’re at work. Try to make the assumption that if you’re interacting with someone, *at work*, it’s really not as private as you seem to think it is.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Flirting with a damn child, smh. This is disturbing on so many levels, and Jane is absolutely right that OP is out of order.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        It’s going to take a little bit of time to stop being so horrified that I can’t even begin to list everything wrong with this. Student employee & 18, weird power dynamic, hugely inappropriate jokes, the fact OP is *IN HR*, wanting to tell Jane to keep her nose out of it…. every time I reread it I find something else to be horrified about.

          1. Middle Aged Lady*

            Plus the poor photocopier! And cartridges are expensive…this letter was so gross—but the joking about rough bed play was the worst. And it makes the kid think that kind of crude talk is OK. Student workers are supposed to be learning the norms of adult work life. As someone who mentored many of them in my career, I am appalled.

        2. Amaranth*

          I can’t even blame Andre for chiming in because it sounds like *she* set the tone and at his age that kind of bawdy teasing isn’t unusual, so it could register as fairly normal and friendly to someone not aware of workplace dynamics and behavior.

      2. Amanda*

        I used to work at an elementary school, one of my coworkers really seemed to love flirting with and being the crush of our 5th grade boys. It was gross and weird. I didn’t think for one minute that she was a pedofile or that anything more inappropriate would happen but it reminded me of this situation in how it’s made her feel the most attractive she has in years (and somehow doesn’t feel like that is relevant)
        I would suggest OP work on self esteem and not derive it from male attention.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          Yes to your last sentence, and ewww to everything else. Flirting with FIFTH GRADERS?! Mary Kay Letourneau’s legacy remains strong I see, smh.

        2. Georgina Fredricka*

          I had a female art teacher (5th to 8th grade) who was too involved in middle school social dynamics – she always knew who the cool kids were and had obvious favorites, was very jokey, etc. Not necessarily horrible, some kids didn’t enjoy her class as you can expect, but oh man… she was later caught ON camera kissing one of her students!

          And by on camera, I mean they set up the camera in the storage/desk area for the art teachers because I guess they suspected it/other teachers had been reporting her but nothing could be proven.
          She blamed it on a brain tumor

          1. Georgina Fredricka*

            I also for the record would have never expected this, and she was arrested I think… 15 years? ish? after I was a student.

                1. Wintermute*

                  this happens EVERY time you read a thread of outrageous school stories or the like, there’s like half a dozen people that ask “was this is podunk, WA?” and like four people go “no I thought it was in el rando, texas!” “This happened at my school in Middleville, IL!” on MULTIPLE different instances.

                  It’s depressing

          2. fogharty*

            That was absolutely the plot of a “Law & Order: SVU” episode, down to the camera and brain tumor excuse, except it was a principle, not an art teacher.

            1. Georgina Fredricka*

              what?!? I didn’t see that episode!! I wonder if it was based on her, though that seems like a stretch… maybe that’s just a fairly common procedure (the camera part) because it sounds like part of the issue is that it’s hard to fire people in that district, or something.

            2. bluephone*

              I was just thinking of that episode too. Spoiler (for a 20? year old episode) is that the principal had a very light sentence because of the tumor, provided she keep away from the victim, go to therapy, register as a sex offender, etc. And then as soon as she got out of hospital she called the kid up so they could run away together and was arrested again, no take backs.

              1. fogharty*

                I think you are conflating two different episodes. The one I’m thinking of is *SPOILER* that the principal had the surgery, was put on probation providing no contact, then had that revoked because she called to tell him she was pregnant.
                Link to episode details: https://lawandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Head

        3. Coder von Frankenstein*

          I only have one bottle of bleach on hand. I think my brain is going to need more than that.

        4. Miki*

          That kind of grooming behavior can be confusing and harmful to kids even if nothing overtly sexual happens. As ab obvious example, imagine if one of those kids was being abused at home (sadly more common than we’d like to think) and then came to school and his teacher was flirting with him – there’d be literally no safe space.

          Also, if someone is willing to violate boundaries with kids like that in so public a way, I wouldn’t be so sure that nothing worse ever happened.

          1. MassMatt*

            Yes, it’s so disturbing on so many levels.

            And I bet the teacher was quite adept at turning it around on whoever called her on it, using the outlandishness of her own behavior as a defense.

            After a while it becomes “oh, yeah, that’s weird but it’s just how mrs Jones is” and everyone tiptoes around pretending they aren’t seeing what’s in front of them.

        5. Akcipitrokulo*

          “I didn’t think for one minute that she was a pedofile or that anything more inappropriate would happen…”

          I do.

          or at least see it as a real danger.

          2. Lynn*

            I do too. My husband (high school teacher for 25+ years) said that this would be a reportable situation if he saw it in one of his colleagues…and that he would be happy to turn the creep over. Even if (and that is a huge assumption here) it never went further.

        7. Quill*

          I have sporks, and I may in fact be headed to spork and egg your coworker’s house right now because NO.
          NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

      3. Clisby*

        Makes me wonder what OP’s reaction would be if it turned out a 40-year-old man in the office was carrying on like this with an 18-year-old female student. Would she think concerned employees should mind their own business?

        1. Observer*

          I suspect it would depend on how good the perpetrator makes her feel in some form or fashion.

          I could be wrong, but, OP, do you think anyone in their right mind is going to give you the benefit of the doubt?

        2. Keymaster of Gozer*

          See wayyy far down for when the reverse happened to me (Young 20 female versus 40 something male) and I am STILL 20 years later feeling like it was my fault. The memory makes me cringe.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            It was NOT your fault. I’m so sorry that happened to you. Adults need to do better by young people – this shit is damaging.

          3. Jules the 3rd*

            So not your fault. Abuse spoils everything, but it is not the fault of the target.

          4. fogharty*

            This may have already been covered (so many comments) but
            “ Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings…”

            Is that what you’d tell an employee who came to you with a complaint about how her male boss was making sexual comments and harassing her?

            Not only will you most likely lose your job, you *should* lose your job if you cannot grasp simple fundamentals.

      4. Cambridge Comma*

        Wait, where is the LW that an 18 year old is a child? I’m not arguing that it isn’t gross, but let’s stick with the facts.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          It’s common sense that an 18 year old is a child – if you can’t legally drink, and you can remember your senior prom because you just attended it months prior, you’re a child. If you have the word “teen” behind your age, you’re a child. I don’t care that the law has arbitrarily decided that 18 now means “adult” – no, 18 year olds are still developmentally adolescents.

          1. merp*

            Yes, this. You don’t magically change in a moment when you turn from a 17yo “child” to an 18yo “adult.” I feel like people in situations like this letter frequently rely on things like “but he’s 18 so *technically* an adult!” which is a great reason to not let that slide. Think of the countdowns to when the Olsen twins were about to turn 18, so that men could creep on them legally. The whole thing makes me shudder.

            1. BookishMiss*

              So hi i was “technically” an adult when a 36yo man (friend of a parent) tried to convince me that 18 is not half of 36, too convince me that his… behavior… was ok. The behavior that started when I was 15.
              18yo me was ENTIRELY unequipped to handle the situation, and the only reason it didn’t end more horribly was that he lived in a state 8 hours away, and an army friend stepped in.
              I was absolutely a child. And his behavior, which skated juuuuuust this side of “acceptable” until i turned 18 looked a WHOLE LOT like OP’s behavior here. OP needs to stop yesterday.

          2. Quill*

            18 means “can vote, can pay taxes” overall. Adolescence is weird and also our transition period into full adult rights and responsibilities, between 16 and 21, is pretty disjointed overall. The point is less about how long he’s been 18 or whether he’s ‘legal’ the point is that OP’s behavior is posing risks to someone who has no experience in adult relationships, whether they’re professional or flirtatious, and she keeps justifying it by saying it makes her feel sexy.

        2. Mama Bear*

          He could be an 18 yr old college kid OR and 18 yr old HS kid. Just says “student”. And either way, Jane’s right that it could negatively impact the school and/or this work program. AND either way a student work program isn’t a dating pool for older employees, especially not those in HR. 18 is still a very vulnerable age and LW is taking advantage by encouraging this behavior.

        3. Anonys*

          Yeah, I don’t think he is a child, but he is very new to the workplace, doesn’t know workplace norms and you know, his brain isn’t fully developed yet. What’s terrible is, that she is messing this young person’s norms up like this and teaching him that sexist, gross, sexualized behavior is ok.

          I can already see him justifying himself based on this later. “What do you mean, women don’t want to be sexualized in the workplace? This is just innocent, my female coworker talked to me just like this on my first job”

          1. Lady Meyneth*

            This is the worst of it for me, he will absolutely carry this behavior into his next job and probably get in trouble in a more functional environment. And specially if he’s a POC or otherwise a minority, one strike is all it takes to really mess up his carreer, so OP could be jeopardizing this boy’s whole life.

            1. jenkins*

              Yeah, I feel like OP is leaning heavily on the technicality that they’re both adults and completely ignoring that this guy is so, so young and so, so clueless about workplace norms. He may be quite happily going along with this, but it’s horribly unfair on him to let him think it’s an OK way to behave at work. She could have saved him trouble in the future by shutting it down hard. Instead she’s reveling in the ego boost. It’s irresponsible and crappy.

        4. somanyquestions*

          How many 18 year olds do you know? They might be able to vote but they are definitely not psychologically adults.

      5. emmelemm*

        Right? When I started reading I thought maybe OP was a recent graduate who started working in one of the college offices, so, 21-23ish. Still totally inappropriate overall, but kind of understandable if she and the intern were close in age and she saw him as more of a peer/friend…

        But as a 40-something woman myself: NO. Just no. Stop.

        1. TechWorker*

          It’s not about the age difference really though, it’s about the power imbalance, the fact this sort of sexual flirting is tooootally inappropriate at work and SHE’S IN HR. I feel like some of OPs reaction was ‘hey just because I’m in my 40s doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to flirt’ and to the fact her coworker used the term ‘unbecoming’. It doesn’t matter what your coworker (or any of us) think of a potential relationship between an 18 year old and someone in their 40s, it does matter that you’re behaving totally inappropriately at work.

          1. emmelemm*

            It’s not that I’m side-eyeing a relationship between a 40-year-old and an 18-year-old, it’s that as a 40-year-old, she should KNOW BETTER.

            1. TechWorker*

              Looool yes I am with you there. I broke up with an 18 year old when I was 20 because the age gap was too much for me >.<

          2. Coder von Frankenstein*

            “This behavior is unbecoming. And by that I mean, if it becomes known, you’re going to be unemployed.”

          3. Avasarala*

            I mean. Age difference matters when it’s a power imbalance. There’s less of a power imbalance if OP were young 20s. Or if they were 60 and 38.

            1. jenkins*

              LW, you’re performing all kinds of mental gymnastics to kid yourself that this is OK. You say no one is complaining – but they are! Jane is complaining! You say your interactions are private and not making anyone feel uncomfortable – JANE has noticed them and is uncomfortable, so the idea that you’re being subtle and private about it is a complete delusion. People know. In my last office, one of the men on my team was very attracted to a woman on another team. I never saw them physically touch, nor make the kind of innuendo that you two engage in, but it was still utterly obvious. When someone’s making you feel all fizzy inside, it’s quite difficult *not* to take lingering glances, talk to them in a warmer tone of voice, mention them constantly and so on. I can sympathise with a crush, and I wouldn’t have said anything to/about my colleague – because despite blushing like a teenager whenever this woman walked in the room, he was careful not to do anything inappropriate. If they’d taken to brushing up against one another and making dirty jokes about toner cartridges, the office would have become a very uncomfortable place for the rest of us.

              Your Reddit letter goes further and seems to be arguing that this is OK because your heightened mojo is benefiting your marriage. In that case your husband should be delighted to hear you’re flirting with a kid just out of high school… right? But he doesn’t need to know because reasons. Uh huh.

              You’re wrapped up in how this is making you feel, and justifying all kinds of harm as a result. Very likely Andre is enjoying it. He’d probably enjoy all kinds of stuff that isn’t OK at work! His enjoyment is not the standard by which this situation needs to be assessed. You’ve said on Reddit that workplace romances are more acceptable in your country than the US, but for heaven’s sake don’t use that to justify this (if it helps, I’m not in the US and I still think this is a total shitshow). This isn’t a workplace romance between consenting equals. This is you, a woman in her 40s with significant power at work, and a boy less than half your age who has no clue about workplace norms. It was your job to help him learn them. You’re letting him down badly, and you intend to continue doing so because you’re enjoying the rush of happy brain chemicals. That’s inexcusable.

          4. Amaranth*

            A whole other problem with the situation is that if its not addressed, THIS is his introduction to workplace norms. Because, you know, the HR professional does it, it must be okay.

      6. Ana Gram*

        Right? I’m 38 and work with teens 16 and up at a volunteer position. Many of them are really great, driven, bright kids but…they’re kids. I can’t see them as anything else. I’m concerned that she’s looking at a teen as an appropriate person to have a sexually charged relationship with.

          1. Quill*

            My brother, texting me three months into grad school, at the tender age of 23:

            “Undergrads are all dumbass children.”

    3. JokeyJules*

      yeah this is suuuper inappropriate in the workplace. id be extremely put off if people joked like this in my office. especially if it was between hr and an 18 year old intern. this isn’t appropriate at all.

      in general at work i operate under the guise that my coworkers aren’t sexual beings and that it generally doesn’t exist as a concept, specifically to avoid “jokes” like that from ever happening. this is gross. and while the law sees Andre as an adult, there isn’t a cinderella moment at 12pm on his 18th birthday that gives him the emotional maturity to understand how inappropriate this is. not claiming his innocence, but it’s definitely something to be well aware of. just because hes ok with it doesn’t mean it’s ok.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Right? It’s incredibly inappropriate for *anyone* to be joking about at work. I don’t care who it’s between. But adding in a young, here to learn about workplace norms, student intern…. cripes, OP, what the hell.

        1. Lynn*

          I didn’t even think about that part. The OP is teaching him terrible workplace behaviors and setting him up for an ugly moment when he gets a claim filed against him/his company at some future job.

            1. Busytrap*

              This is what I kept thinking – this poor kid needs to be learning workplace norms. He’s going to end up being the officer creeper because of how this woman – in HR NO FREAKING LESS – taught him workplaces worked. I just hope the OP reads these comments and it knocks some sense into her.

          2. Hazel*

            I agree. The OP needs to change her relationship with Andre and tell him why so he doesn’t think this is normal behavior in a workplace.

            On my first office job, my (way more mature) colleagues who made sure I knew what was and was not OK. I still cringe when I think of the strapless jersey (t-shirt material) sundress I wore to work – without a bra because my back was very sunburned. I thought it was OK because “I didn’t have any choice.” After my work friends set me straight about inappropriate work attire, I had to get more creative and thoughtful about what to wear when there were extenuating circumstances, like sunburn. It’s still embarrassing to think about.

          3. Anonys*

            Yes, I mean this is teaching him that it’s OK or even welcome to say to a coworker: “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.” He should learn that the normal response to that would be disciplinary action and a very stern talk about sexual harassment. It’s so disturbing to teach someone norms like that, especially a young, straight man. This is setting him up to be the office creep for sure.

            Tbh, an 18 year old SHOULD know that’s sexist and inappropriate already but at the very least he can still learn . That a 40 year old HR person thinks that’s ok – wow. Sometimes I wonder if these OPs have ever actually read AAM before cause I feel like if one reads a couple of letters here it would become obvious very quickly that Alison wouldn’t be on OP’s side about this. Hope she seriously does some soul-searching.

          4. Spero*

            Yes! Also I’m sorry – but with the name ‘Andre’ my mind immediately went to the possibility he’s Black. Setting up a young Black man to believe that office sexual harassment is normal is particularly harmful given the hypersexualization of young black men in our culture he may have already experienced, and given the outsized punishment reaction sent to Black men who are perceived as having transgressed sexual boundaries.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              I did as well, but some of OP’s language in the letter made me think she was as well, so I didn’t make this point about that added layer of exploitation. But your comment is spot on regardless of OP’s ethnicity.

          5. I Need That Pen*

            Exactly. He needs to learn now or start practicing his answers one day at the deposition table.

      2. No Longer Working*

        Don’t 18-year-old boys get aroused very easily? Why would she be encouraging sexual thoughts and physical contact AT WORK? I bet you a million bucks he has gotten aroused by this flirtation. What happens when she walks away and someone else sees his… groin?

        1. AKchic*

          It depends wildly on their hormones and their maturity.

          Some 18 year olds will… pop up at the mere suggestion of a slight breeze. Others, not so much. For those of us who are around teens/young adult men, we are polite enough to not call attention to it if something does happen to come up, and they generally try to casually excuse themselves or ignore it until it goes away.

          (Mom of too many teenage boys)

        2. Anonys*

          I don’t think this is the issue to focus on. This is the argument some people use for why women shouldn’t wear form-fitting clothes at work, show their bare legs or whatever – (young) men get aroused so easily, it’s your responsibility to avoid arousing men who have no control over themselves. Besides, I guess all men sometimes get physically aroused (for no reason at all) in unfortunately situations and deal with it.

          “Why would she be encouraging sexual thoughts and physical contact AT WORK?” This is the right question to ask though. Sexual talk and touching doesn’t belong in the workplace. All these little instances of touching are probably even more obvious to everyone else, if everyone is keeping distance because of COVID.

        3. ...*

          What??? I don’t think 18 year olds just automatically get erections when someone makes a joke about a printer.

        4. Avasarala*

          Ew. You’re weirdly focused on this part of the issue. It’s not about “what if he gets a boner at work”, it’s about “what if he is being actively groomed and sexually harassed at work”…which he is.

          Also 18 is not 13.

        5. jenkins*

          Umm. Young men do sometimes get involuntary erections at awkward moments. But I really don’t think Andre’s genitals are the focus here.

    4. EPLawyer*

      Oh dear heavens this “ry to make the assumption that if you’re interacting with someone, *at work*, it’s really not as private as you seem to think it is.” You are at WORK. That by definition is not private, or your private life. You only interact with this person through work — even the coffee was a work break. That is not private.

      You seem to spend a lot of time justifying why your interactions with Andre are okay. Because you know darn well they are not. You are just mad Jane called you out on it. You should be thanking her. You aren’t nearly as subtle as you think you are. Jane saved you from a lot worse than her pointing out the INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS. You could lose your job over this. And your marriage. Take Jane’s and Alison’s words to hear before its too late.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        “but we were in a private conversation”
        you’re at WORK, obviously people could overhear, obviously there’s others around you, and apparently y’all are making it super obvious otherwise, or no one would have mentioned “sexual tension” and called out specific conversations.

        My brain hurts a little trying to follow along with the mental gymnastics to get to “work is not public” and “making hugely inappropriate comments to my 18 year old student employee is totally okay, don’t tell my husband”.

        1. MCMonkeyBean*

          I’m also not clear on why even if it were a private conversation that would in any way be a defense…

          1. Batgirl*

            People are supposed to pretend they don’t see/hear it, OP then doesnt get bugged about it; therefore no need to stop doing it… I think.

          2. Harper the Other One*

            Private conversation would almost make it worse (almost) because of how much more difficult it is for someone to extricate themselves/lodge a complaint without getting a “this is a he said/she said, maybe you misunderstood” kind of response.

      2. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. I think OP is enjoying the attention and irritable that Jane is pointing out the flaws in this situation, but Jane is right. HR should be held to a higher standard, and even if OP wasn’t HR, this is still an imbalance of power situation. OP needs to put a stop to it immediately. I also like Alison’s point at the end about why OP wouldn’t tell their spouse about the student interactions. I think OP knows full well that the husband wouldn’t approve and why. OP is putting their job and marriage at risk and needs to take this conversation with Jane seriously.

      3. Marzipan Shepherdess*

        This x 1,000 (at least!) The LW is tying herself into a mental pretzel trying to justify this flirtatious behavior to herself and to AAM – and is failing miserably. If she REALLY believed this was just harmless friendliness, she wouldn’t have to engage in so many cerebral gymnastics to convince AAM (and herself) that it is. And the line about her husband not needing to know about it? If it were actually so innocent, she’d feel perfectly comfortable in mentioning to him that there’s a promising student intern who recently started, and that she expects him to do well.

        LW, you aren’t fooling anyone except, by default, your husband (and yes, office gossip can and does reach workers’ spouses’ ears, so don’t count on him being permanently out of the loop either!) Jane did you a FAVOR by pointing out to you that this is inappropriate, that others have taken note of it and that the gossip mill is starting up. Please leave the cougars in the zoo, pull WAY back and keep your interactions with this young man strictly professional (no lunch dates, physical contact of.any.kind. with him, comparing changing a printer cartridge to sexual intercourse (WTH?!) and engaging in prolonged social chit-chat) before YOUR professional standing, career and oh, yes, marriage, have gone down the one-way drain.

        1. KimberlyR*

          She could also cost him his job. His behavior is also very inappropriate but he is probably following the cues of his older, HR coworker. Surely she wouldn’t steer him wrong??? /sarcasm

          Seriously, if the LW doesn’t want to cost this young man his job AND teach him inappropriate workplace norms, she will cease immediately and possibly even self-report to her boss so they can see what needs to happen.

    5. kittymommy*

      I’m grossed out reading that toner comment (the other one isn’t great but it’s also not quite as icky). Jane is 100% right, this is unbelievably inappropriate and must have a full stop. Jane is fully understanding the “social nuances” and is correctly stating it is wrong. The fact that the LW are in HR and don’t see that is mind boggling to me.

    6. Hills to Die on*

      I have a raunchy sense of humor so in other contexts, it would be funny. Except he’s a kid and you are old enough to be his mom. There have been a couple of times over the years where someone around that age tried to flirt with me (I am also in my 40s) and I laughed and brushed it off fast because it’s less insulting than saying, ‘ew, stop’.

      1. Jaybeetee*

        I’m in my 30s and occasionally get, like, 22 year olds trying to chat with me on dating sites. Even then, my knee-jerk reaction is, “Does your mother know you’re on this site?” I don’t think I’d be capable of flirting with an 18 year old.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          I’m 33 and do the same thing to the early 20 year olds who follow me around networking events trying to get dates. No way in hell.

        2. Littorally*

          Seriously. 18yos look like children to me! OP needs to do some serious soul searching here, and not only about her career.

        3. AKchic*

          I’m in my late 30’s with a 20 year old son and fauxdopted kids in their mid 20’s. I am so glad I don’t have the minefield of dating sites. Visiting one son at the bar he works at is weird enough.

      3. Vina*

        I’m middle-aged. Anyone younger than 45 is a no-go. I can go 25 years older, but not 25 years younger.

        It’s not that I view them as children, per se, but the age and life experience would present so many problems that I would not act on any attraction, no matter how physically hot they were. Also, at my age, I find non-physical attributes much sexier than a tight young body. I’d rather have a 60 year old with grey hair but some interesting life experience.

        I just don’t understand.

        No, I do. It’s not about Andre and who he is as a person. He’s not a real person to her. He’s a prop. One she’s using as an ego boost.

        That, to me, makes it worse. She’s not relating to him as a human being, but as someone to give her an ego kibble when she needs it. Ewwwwww.

        1. Joielle*

          Yes! You’re exactly right that it’s not really about who Andre is as a person, it’s just about him propping up the OP’s ego. I mean jeez, when I was 28 (a few years ago), I briefly dated a 22-year-old and she was just in such a different place in life at the time that it felt weird. I can’t even imagine finding someone 22 YEARS younger attractive, let alone acting on it WHERE MY COWORKERS COULD SEE. Oh my god the embarrassment.

          I hope OP reads these comments and sees them as a big red flag that something else is going on in her life that she needs to address, because she’s convinced herself that this is normal when it is NOT. OP, even if you don’t really care about how this could affect Andre, I hope you care about your own career! This is the kind of scandal that can follow you and taint your reputation forever.

          1. Vina*

            It’s a coping mechanism or compensation.

            She’s sparkling over some form of a crack in her life.

        2. Batgirl*

          “He’s not a real person to her. He’s a prop. One she’s using as an ego boost.”
          In the reddit version, OP compares the boost flirting with Andre is giving her in the bedroom to her husband watching porn.
          When will people learn? Just because you trim back on the details doesn’t mean people won’t see through you. Your actions will always reveal you very transparently to people of sense.

          1. Quill*

            Except the actors in porn are compensated, consent to their content being used as a prop, and aren’t in any contact with the watcher, so… OP, what you’re doing is nowhere near as harmless as watching ethically produced porn.

        3. allathian*

          I’m middle-aged too, and while I see 18 year olds as basically adult, I don’t see them as sexually attractive, no matter how cute they may be. They just don’t have the life experience to be interesting.

          That said, I don’t find men my dad’s age attractive, either, not in real life. I have had crushes on celebrities who are my dad’s age, when I was in my 20s and 30s and they were in their 50s and 60s.

      1. Vina*

        She’s going to get fired if she doesn’t immediately stop this and take remedial action.

        Question: Do you think she should self-report this to a higher up? Because I’m convinced Jane or someone else will tell on her no matter what.

        2. HR Exec Popping In*

          Yes, she should self report it. It depends on the company as to if she would lose her job or not. For me, if she was in my department, I would let her go.

          1. Amaranth*

            Thanks for your POV. If she doesn’t work with conflict resolution, etc., would it be enough to do a PIP, get her away from the junior employee and have her maybe go for some training/therapy? I guess I’m curious if is it just a case where poor choices mean she’s out or is there any leeway for her to redeem herself if she self-reports rather than Andre or Jane filing a complaint?

    8. BookLady*

      I make jokes like that with my friends, but if I overheard this at work, I would be horrified!

    9. Sleepless*

      I have teenage children. If a 40 something coworker was saying things like this to either of them, I would be livid.

  4. SoftwareDev*

    Woah. I agree with absolutely everything Allison said. This is seriously gross and unprofessional. Also, you’re married?!?!?! This is wrong on SO many levels.

    1. Andie Begins*

      This would be wildly inappropriate even if the OP was single – the issue is the power dynamic between Andre and OP, not OPs marital fidelity.

      2. Diahann Carroll*

        The power and age differential. I’m sorry, but the boy still has the word “teen” behind his age. He is too damn young and immature for OP to be “flirting” with him in the office. This is predatory behavior coming from an adult, made even worse by the fact that OP is in HR and is supposed to understand appropriate boundaries in the workplace.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Yes.

          He is a teen.

          Op is an adult.

          Grooming and predator are words that come to mind.

          OP – stop now.

        2. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I agree with Diahann, the age and power differential matters HUGELY here.

          Andre is a student employee. In most of the cases where I’ve seen young workers described this way, it’s because the job is intended as a part of that person’s learning experience. This could well be Andre’s first office job. Part of the reason he has this job is to learn the basics of how jobs work, and what the general professional norms of an office are.

          That’s why I think the relationship between OP and Andre is more problematic than other inappropriate office relationships. One of OP’s primary functions here is to teach Andre how to behave professionally in an office environment. Instead of doing that, she’s giving him a really skewed view of what kind of behavior he should be engaging in with his coworkers. She’s meant to be helping him learn how to be successful in future jobs, and instead she’s setting him up for failure.

          OP, if you can’t dial this back, I’d recommend removing yourself from Andre’s job duties. What you are doing here could tank not just your own professional reputation, but Andre’s chance at a successful future. You have no right to take that from him.

          2. feministbookworm*

            Yes yes yes this was exactly what I was thinking while I was reading this. It’s likely that if Andre has any other work experience it’s probably in the service industry, where raunchy humor and nonexistent professional boundaries are extremely common (still not remotely OK, but unfortunately an industry norm and not disqualifying for future employment). She is really doing him a lot of harm by not helping him understand professional workplace behavior.

      3. Remote HealthWorker*

        Not to mention different marriages have different tolerances for this sort of thing. It doesn’t need to be part of the discussion because it doesn’t matter that OP is married.

        1. Kate*

          The fact that OP won’t tell her husband about this gives a good idea that their marriage isn’t one that would have tolerance to this sort of thing.

          But yes, 1) all this sexual innuendo in general 2) student employee + experienced employee 3) experienced employee being in HR – that is far more than enough for this to be nonononoICK.

          1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

            “He doesn’t need to know because it’s nothing” – let’s just say r/relationships and Captain Awkward would have a field day with that. It just doesn’t follow. Someone you’re friendly enough to go to lunch with is someone your spouse has heard of, period. Spouse might not be interested, but chances are if you say “oh I went out for lunch today with someone from work” they’d guess that it would be Amy or Wakeen because you talk about the work-fun you have with them, and not the teenager you just hired who you haven’t mentioned since.

            But it’s the power differential that makes this completely inappropriate, and suggests moreover that LW may be unsuited to her job in particular, if she doesn’t understand what harassment actually covers, and can’t recognise inappropriate behaviours when they crop up.

            1. JokeyJules*

              my partner doesn’t need to know that chicken was $4.99/lb last week at the store – i don’t tell them, and it just doesn’t come up.

              THIS isn’t $4.99/lb chicken at the store. if it’s something that isn’t a surprise gift for them, consciously deciding not to tell your partner about something is a bad sign.

        2. Vina*

          It wouldn’t be an issue if the husband knew of, and allowed, this type of banter. She makes it clear from her letter he would not.

          This is like the whole “cheating v. Open marriage” debate. A lot of woke people want to set the default to ‘don’t assume cheating absent evidence” to over-correct for historical biases. That is, however, no better than assuming all behavior is cheating even if all parties approve.

          In this case, we know it’s an issue b/c of how defensive she was.

          If her husband were ok with it, she would have said so, given how proactively defensive she is with everything else.

          Also, she clearly views this as “not cheating.” I wonder if her husband would feel the same.

          Me, if my husband did this, yeah, it’s a violation of the rules. And I’d smack him with the Louisville Slugger of Logic for being such an idiot in the target of the flirting and the venue.

          1. WantonSeedStitch*

            It would absolutely still be an issue–not because of the idea of infidelity, but because of the age difference, power differential, and context of the workplace. My husband and I have a polyamorous relationship. If he flirts aggressively with a woman close to his age who he meets through friends or something, that’s one thing. But if I found out he was flirting aggressively with an 18-year-old in the workplace, I would be table-flipping furious, and would flat out let him know that if I were his boss, I would fire him.

            1. Vina*

              Yes, absolutely. i was only responding to the poster above who was claiming the infediality wasn’t an issue at all.

              I dont’ disagree with you in the least.

        3. Batgirl*

          Eh, it would still be awful, horrible harrassment coming from a single person but I think the being married thing does add some extra gravity because:
          1) She’s implicating a child into her marriage and implying workplace affairs are just hi-jinx fun which never end badly.
          2) Married people generally need good boundaries even outside of work and it makes OP look extra ludicrous that she has none.

      4. J*

        So, is “feeling attractive” worth your reputation, your career, and your marriage?
        Do you really need input to know that this is wrong on many levels?

        I used to have a subordinate (close in age to me, early 30’s) that attempted to flirt with me constantly. Did it make me feel kind of blushy and nice and desired? Sure, for a split second. Then I shut that shit down in the next split second because it is a thousand levels of inappropriate. I was his supervisor. I was married. We were at work. Just, no. He did flirt with me on a few occasions. Eventually I had to call in my supervisor and do a counseling in writing because he kept trying to flirt and that finally got the point across, but next step would have been hr. He was a good guy and a good employee and I didn’t feel harassed by him, it just needed to stop. And it did, thankfully.

        1. Vina*

          Having seen a lot of divorces in a personal and professional context, I would argue it’s almost never a lack of physical intimacy at home/something hotter with the affair partner.

          It is almost always about ego. Now, in some cases, the cheated-on spouse is absolutely refusing to connect with the cheater. In others, they are trying, but the cheating spouse prefers to get those ego kibbles elsewhere.

          So, yeah, for many people the ego kibble is absolutely worth blowing up their marriage, their spouse’s life, their job, their children’s sense of safety .

          If it weren’t, there wouldn’t be so many mid-life crisis affairs that blow up lives.

          LW needs to be in therapy and work out what is going on in her own head. Clearly, something’s missing if she needs to get an ego kibble from an 18 year old.

          1. Batgirl*

            Yeah my experiences track with yours. A relative stranger finding them hot suddenly outweighs all the established relationships both personal and professional. Pure madness, but it’s usually how it goes.

            1. Vina*

              I’ve known a handful of women who spent their lives as OW (usually serially to different men). It wasn’t that they were physically more attractive or that they were somehow magic in the sack. What they did was give the men they were with unconditional ego boosts without strings or commitment. It was entirely about serving the ego of the married affair partner.

              I have no seen enough serial OM to judge if this dynamic holds in that respect. So, I have no idea either way.

              I cannot imagine spending my life serving as someone’s ego kibble dispenser.

              I am in no way saying that all affairs have this dynamic. But I’ve seen enough of them where this was the case to think it’s a pattern and indicative of something else.

              1. Jules the 3rd*

                I have seen enough serial OM to say, yes, being a no-strings kibble dispenser works that way too. They do usually have to pony up some economic recompense (ie, dinners and paying for hotel rooms) because that’s the way our society works, but not always.

                Yes, OP needs to figure out why her self-esteem was so desperate for a boost that she’s jeopardizing her career and marriage for some gross flirty talk with a kid.

      5. Coder von Frankenstein*

        That is *an* issue. It is not the only one. There are so very, very many.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      The worst is this a 40-something inappropriately flirting with an 18 year old student employee.

      1. Bee*

        For the first half of the letter I thought it was something like a 23-year-old being a bit too friendly with a college student and her older coworker reading too much into it, but nope!!

        1. AnotherAlison*

          That’s where I thought we were headed. Disappointingly, nope.

          I’m 42, and my two sons are almost-16 and almost-23. I’ve spent a lot of time around 18 year old males. I haven’t met one I want to exchange flirtatious banter with. Conversely, I tend to fall to the pattern of thinking my recent-grad colleagues are “kids” and have to remember they are not. There’s just so much wrong here.

          1. Hills to Die on*

            Yeah, I am at the age where I see most professional athletes as ‘kids’ and I just want them to wear warmer layers, stay hydrated, and be careful not to injure themselves or others while playing Sportball. I don’t talk while watching games anymore because I sound like an old schoolmarm fussing.

          2. LifeBeforeCorona*

            Yes, I work with university-age students. Their level of naivety, inexperience, and just general all around teenage vibe makes them seem younger than their age. Flirtatious banter with any of them is cringeworthy.

            1. Vina*

              There is a massive difference between 18 and 25. Between 45 and 55, not so much.

              Something happens both with respect to the final maturation of the human brain and life experience in college.

              If this man were, say, 27, I would not nearly be so grossed-out.

              Because he’s not, there is a grooming-vibe. As others have said. Grooming.

            2. char*

              Heck, even when I was a senior in college, I found the 18-year-old freshmen too immature for me to be interested in them that way.

                1. Quill*

                  Like, it’s weird as heck to have the three year gap at that age – in college, you’re straddling the line between student and fully independent, in high school you’ve got one person just starting to be legally old enough to be employed and one leaving for college or starting a first full time job, but both of those are nowhere near as bad as someone who has to pull out “but he’s 18, he’s legal.”

          3. MusicWithRocksIn*

            Seriously. Have you heard an 18 year old talk about their love life? It gives me secondhand embarrassment just to listen to it. Anyone who hears that stuff and thinks ‘ohhh, this is attractive’ ughh.

          4. AKchic*

            The only time I “flirt” with anyone aged 18-25 is at ren fair, and that is pre-arranged while we’re in costume, with all parties consenting, and while we’re in character. Any other time, I’m momming them like I do everyone else (mainly because I remember them as children and I haven’t stopped momming them) and am making sure they have adequate sunblock, hydration and asking if they are overheating (because armor in the sun is horrible). Off-season, these are the same adult “kids” that sit on my couch, playing video games with my teens/adult children, snuggling with the critters and generally getting treated like one of the crew. They aren’t around to boost my ego. Maybe make sure we don’t have leftovers, but certainly not there to make me feel sexually desirable.

            1. allathian*

              This. I can’t imagine flirting with my son’s friends a few years down the road. Yuck! Feeding them our leftovers? Most certainly.

              1. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

                That is what 18 year old boys are for- making sure you don’t have any leftovers. Not ego boosting you so you feel sexy.

        2. Another name*

          That’s what I assumed the first half of the letter too- someone starting their first professional job still learning that you really have to watch how your actions may look to others. I am flabbergasted at how this letter turned out!

          I hope the OP will reel this in and seek attention from a more appropriate source like her spouse, and maybe see a therapist for help with whatever difficulties drove her to think this behavior in the office was appropriate.

        3. Akcipitrokulo*

          To be fair… answer is still “stop flirting” but it’s “stop flirting – it’s not professional and Jane is looking out for you teaching you professional norms” not “stop flirting – what on earth are you thinking; you are an experienced HR person harassing a child!!!!”

    3. Fyodor*

      Also, no should be doing casual touching with anyone who is not a member of their household in the COVID-19 era.

      2. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Yup, hope they both sanitised their hands and wore masks if they’re getting that close.

        (Inappropriate flirting is bad, inappropriate flirting and ignoring antiviral measures is another layer of NOPE)

      3. SpecialSpecialist*

        Really you shouldn’t be touching your coworkers period, Covid-19 or not. Offering a hand to help you up from the bench? Eh…maybe. Keeping his hand on you while you walk out the park together? No. Too intimate for coworkers.

        1. TL -*

          In many places, some touches are fine – taps on the shoulder, a light (quick) touch to the forearm for emphasis, a hand up if they’re sitting on the ground, asking and with permission brushing something off your back… If someone touched me like that every day or even every week, I’d feel it was inappropriate, but once in a while (once a month? less?) I don’t think I would even really notice.

          I did tell one of my coworkers if she needed a hug to let me know, but she’s been really isolated since COVID started and literally hadn’t had any human contact in months. That was a bit unusual. (She gave me a brief hug later.)

        2. snoopythedog*

          Exactly.

          I am female. I had a male coworker (who I consider a good work friend and an out of work acquaintance) ask if he could tuck in my tag one day because it was showing and my hands were full. Coworkers really shouldn’t be touching and when they do- just ask for consent. I felt so respected. Had it happened outside of the workplace when we were hanging out as friends, I don’t think he would have asked and it would have been fine. But there’s a line inside the work place.

      4. Observer*

        Honestly, that’s really not the worst of it. Although if this really is a letter from the last few weeks, it really is another whole layer of NOPE. You want to endanger yourself, that’s one thing. But you have a whole office full of people who now know that HR explicitly thinks that the who physical distance thing is a joke. Not good for anyone who wants to feel even a LITTLE bit safe.

        The OP is fooling herself in every which way.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          They mention Covid in it, so I’m guessing it’s during this pandemic.

          Regardless, you’re right. Who’d ever trust a HR department that thinks that sexually charged looks, touches, speech, disregard of virus safety, inappropriate language, making others really uncomfortable is totally okay and nothing to get upset about?

          Speaking as an IT manager I’m also afraid that this likely hasn’t been confined to offline stuff. Remember we can see all your stuff if we want to, and if another member of HR starts asking us to look into sexual harassment etc. in the office we’ll find it, and it’s an instant job dismissal.

      5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        It’s baffling. Everyone else is trying to keep minimum six feet apart, and LW and Andre are close enough to “brush past”? Puh-lease. They’ll be drawing people’s attention just for that. Personal space is a massive tell.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          Don’t you know attraction gives you immunity to being ill?

          (Black hole level density of sarcasm)

      6. JustMe*

        Our new HR person, who’s been here about a year, has a habit of placing her hand on other people’s shoulders, and saying, “Hey friend!” Now that she’s the Director, I think she’s cut that out, but who knows if that will come back once the pandemic is over. I always thought that was weird and inappropriate, especially since she was new and didn’t know anybody! Plus that kind of upfront friendliness smacks of insincerity.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          I once had a senior director who loved to come up and hug you from behind. I nearly landed my elbow in his teeth.

          (Seriously, what person thinks coming up to the woman who’s just returned to work after a violent mugging and hugging her from behind is a good idea?!)

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            wooooooow. Sympathy for your experience. On him – way too many thoughts, all bad.

          2. Observer*

            I just gasped with a strangled cat sound. That’s just ridiculous. And your current HR person? Bad news. Who promoted someone like that to director?!

          3. allathian*

            He would have deserved your elbow in his teeth. I’m sorry you had to go through that on top of the mugging. I have a very strong startle reflex and I can’t even blame it on PTSD.

          4. Quill*

            If you had gotten a tooth, it would have been richly deserved.

            (I also hate people sneaking up on me.)

          5. Claire Bee*

            Oh no! That’s terrible! Any hug is bad but a hug from behind? A whole other layer of unacceptable!

            There’s a coworker that recently hovered behind me as he leaned over to ask me a question. I was sitting and he was standing. I promise, his groin had to be on the back of my chair, he was that close. The next day he squeezed my shoulder while talking to me and I had to shut that down. Maybe I’m sensitive but I do not like to be touched by anyone at work! Arm, shoulder, hug, idk I hate it all. Also, if I can swing my arms around and hit you, you’re too close to me!

    4. Hey Karma, Over Here*

      He’s in this job to learn professional norms, how to work in an office, how to treat coworkers. OP is skewing his sense of normal and appropriate. OP, you are justifying this as something between the two of you. It is not. Andre is not either. He is learning that it is OK to make sexually charged comments to coworkers.
      I hope someone speaks to him about this. As in, “it’s not your fault, but things are out of hand. You both need to stop.”

      2. NerdyKris*

        Yeah, if he engages in that kind of behavior with another coworker, he might be on the receiving end of a complaint. That reply to the toner comment was out of line, even though it was a response to her inappropriate comment. Imagine if he thinks it’s okay to make a sex joke when someone says “Can you do Jane next?”. LW is setting him up for problems.

        1. Academic Addie*

          Exactly. He could become someone who makes others uncomfortable. Or he could find himself in a situation where someone is making jokes like the OP with predatory intent. OP, I’m sure this all feels like good fun, and you’re on board. But how would you feel if in a few years if he got this sort of attention and it was unwelcome? You are really doing him and his future coworkers a disservice.

          1. Observer*

            Not could – WILL. One thing is clear – he thinks this is ok in the workplace (whatever he may personally feel about it.)

            Unless something blows up or someone gives him a really effective talking to, he’s going to be the guy who thinks it’s ok to make these kinds of comments, and that is going to lead to problems.

      3. Bernice Clifton*

        This is exactly what I was thinking. Part of hiring student workers is showing by example what professional behavior looks like.

      5. Three Flowers*

        Oh yeah. And along the way, she’s (I’m assuming she?) setting him up to be one of those guys who think women who do make complaints are humorless, frigid, and out to get him. She’s modeling bad behavior to him and also reinforcing the idea that cool women should be ok with sexually charged work environments. Not helping, OP. You’re the opposite of good HR.

        2. Joielle*

          Yes! Sometimes we get letters about awful sleazy coworkers and I think “Who ARE these guys and how could they possibly think this is ok?? Where did they learn that this was how you act at work??” And well… I guess this kind of thing is the answer.

          Seriously, though, there are enough gross dudes out there that the OP really does not need to be actively training more. This is a big problem on a whole bunch of levels.

  5. The Original K.*

    … Yikes. OP, you don’t seem to realize how totally inappropriate this is – doubly so since you work in HR. What you’re doing is wrong and you need to stop.

  6. WhatDayIsIt*

    OP, if saw a man making sexual jokes with a 18 year old woman student employee, wouldn’t this be a huge red flag about his behavior? This has yikes all over it, especially as an HR employee.

    1. Daffy Duck*

      Exactly! This is behavior t it isn’t “sweet” just because the person with the power is a woman. You can bet your bottom dollar this is already impacting how others in the office see the OP, and it isn’t in a positive way.

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Not just Jane – she’s just the one who spoke up. If she has overheard multiple examples, so have others.

        1. AKchic*

          Frankly, Jane could have been the one nominated, or volunteered to speak to LW. If Jane is another person in HR, then multiple people could have heard things and come to Jane (or someone else) with complaints and it all filtered back to Jane, who has been taking notes (if she’s any good at her job) and came to LW with a friendly level of concern rather than out the other complainant(s).

          If LW doesn’t stop, Jane could very well escalate this, and show documentation that she attempted to dissuade the LW from her current course in a friendly way to prevent such actions, even at the potential detriment to Jane’s professional standing as well (because really, Jane should have been more by-the-book about this, but she chose to be friendly about it, and I think we do understand why, even if we don’t approve).

          1. Pomona Sprout*

            If LW doesn’t stop, I really hope Jane does escalate this. It needs to stop and Jane obviously knows it needs to stop, which makes me think she probably will follow up if LW doesn’t knock it off.

    2. Blagosphere*

      I think this comment is so important. I suspect that the OP is dismissing this as a problem in part because the employee is a young man and the OP is an older woman, and that is not the traditional dynamic where society trains us to spot sexual harassment. Imagine a 40-something male manager telling a young female intern that she should treat the scanner like she’d want to be treated on a date, and tell me your insides don’t turn to jello.

      1. Nauseous*

        +1
        It’s not every day that you read a letter from a female sexually harassing someone here. Thank you for posting this AAM. As a woman, I am glad that this letter got featured to evidence that the problem is equally problematic, regardless of the instigating gender.

        OP, you need to stop this. I am so sorry for that student, and for any other person in your workplace that has been made uncomfortable by your utter lack of boundaries. This must end.

    4. MtnLaurel*

      Exactly. OP, you may want to put yourself in the position of how you’d react if the genders were reversed and this issue were brought to you. Maybe that will help you see how problematic this interaction is.

    5. Observer*

      Given that the OP says “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings” I would not have ANY expectation that she would react appropriately.

      I hope that the OP’s company has a really, really good harassment policy that contains multiple ways for people to bring up complaints and that they have a good track record of visibly dealing appropriately with harassment, because otherwise, the company is going to have a major problem if anyone else goes after them for harassment.

      1. Vina*

        I cannot believe someone in HR thinks this way, much less vocalizes it in public. What the ever-loving H?

    6. Beth*

      This is my thinking as well. OP, this kind of thing is what men pull with me all the time (which, I’m sure as heck not 18, but I am a very open lesbian who looks visibly gay, they should know better). It’s toeing the line of being obvious flirting while maintaining a little tiny mental edge of “well but I didn’t MEAN it that way, people can’t blame me for it if that’s not what I MEANT.” Trust me, that deniability doesn’t hold up outside your head, and people absolutely can blame you for it.

      The fact that you feel the need to tell us you’d never cheat on your husband says something. So does the fact that you apparently haven’t mentioned Andre to your husband, not even in a casual “my work friend told this funny joke today” way, and feel the need to justify that decision. So does the fact that you feel unusually attractive around him. All of these are signs that this relationship is not in fact okay, and you do in fact know that on some level.

      You really, really need to recognize that. If you insist on continuing on in denial, you’re going to ruin a lot of things for yourself and probably hurt a lot of people, and you won’t even necessarily realize you’re doing it until it’s too late. You really should stop doing it entirely, but if you decide to ignore every very well-reasoned boundary and continue, you owe it to everyone involved to at least acknowledge the choice you’re making.

  9. KTM*

    My eyebrows kept going up further and further as I read this letter… and pretty much hit the ceiling. OP you really need to take Alison’s advice to heart.

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Hahahaha that’s a funny mental image! I whole-heartedly agree, the OP needs to do some self evaluation!

    2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      Seriously, this letter has an impressively steady drip of progressively more alarming detail.

      You don’t go to work to “feel attractive.” Take up salsa dancing or something. Moreover, part of the deal when you have an intern is that you take responsibility to help them learn how to function in a professional setting, including office norms. If Andre gets used to risque jokes in the workplace and overtly flirting with coworkers, then you’re doing him a disservice for the sake of your own ego.

      1. Stephen!*

        Yes. The flirting and inappropriateness needs to stop now. And once you’ve stopped it, then figure out how to replace what you were getting out of the interactions with something healthy. Do not set up this poor teenager for failure in his next jobs.

      2. Code Monkey, the SQL*

        YES.

        Ok, you went out to coffee, fine. He paid… ehh, he’s a student, you shouldn’t have let him, but ok. He touched you on the arm, and that made you feel comfortable brushing against him in the hall – OP, that’s where you started losing me. You’re tallying up the times he touches you and making jokes about his dating life. STOP RIGHT THERE.

        Eighteen is a kid. A tall kid, a kid who’s on his “lookit how mature I am that this Older Woman let me buy her coffee” kick. You’re getting little boosts throughout the day from touching and joking with and crossing boundaries with an eighteen-year-old who thinks he’s hot spit and whom you are supposed to be teaching how NOT to do that stuff.

        Let’s flip this, OP.

        You’re eighteen. You go get coffee with your ~40 year old boss. He pays, then helps you up from your seat. Suddenly, he’s brushing against you in the hall, poking you in the shoulder at your desk, mentioning you ‘taking it like a queen’ when you fight to put the toner into the printer. He maybe mentions that his wife might be jealous of how much time you spend together. Other co-workers are starting to comment on him hitting on you. And oh, btw, he’s HR.

        Please, OP, think about how that might feel. How powerless you would be if at any point you felt a line were crossed. Please, OP, THINK.

        1. Observer*

          He paid… ehh, he’s a student, you shouldn’t have let him, but ok.

          Actually, totally NOT ok. Given everything else, it’s not something I would highlight, but seriously?! You allowed a student worker to pay for your coffee?!

          That alone should be putting you on very thin ice!

          1. Vina*

            The more the commentariat peels this onion open, the more rot and more issues we see.

            Wow, yeah, that’s another problem with this. Even absent the flirting, that is not ok.

          2. Butterfly Counter*

            This is where I first knew this letter was going to be a disaster. A 40something professional let a boy pay for her coffee? In a work place, people should pay for their own coffees. However, if there is a student worker/full time professional dynamic, I would be fine with the person who has a steady job making a lot more money treating the student to coffee on an occasion or two. Having the guy pay for a gal’s coffee in spite of all of the violations of professional behavior sets this up almost like a date with whatever BS rules of chivalry applying. Just: NO.

          3. Code Monkey, the SQL*

            Oh, yeah, absolutely fair – I suppose I calibrated that initial level of ‘ick’ backwards after reading the rest of the letter!

          4. Noelle*

            That stood out to me too. Obviously there are bigger issues in the letter but you should never ever let a student worker/interns/etc. In fact in most offices I’ve worked at, the employees went out of our way to make sure we always paid for the more junior staff.

        2. MayLou*

          Even if the teenager in this scenario DOESN’T feel powerless, even if they are enjoying it and want it to continue, it still should not. Remove the age difference and you’ve still got an inappropriate relationship between a new employee and HR. You’ve still got sexual innuendo in the office. You’ve still got the focus of LW’s day being how flirting makes her feel attractive, instead of work.

          1. Vina*

            Even if he were the one in a million mature 18 year olds who could handle it (doubtful), still inappropriate.

            Wholeheartedly agree.

        3. Ada Doom*

          I’ve had a fair number of student workers over the years. The ONLY way I could see having a student/intern pay if we go to coffee would be 1.if I forgot my money somehow (and I would have had to forget cash and card and id card with a food balance), and I would immediately pay them back at the office or 2. if it was the end of the semester and they had extra money to burn from their meal plan (this might be a really specific thing to certain schools, but meal plans have a pot of money to spend at cafes, etc on campus, and it’s use-it-or-lose-it at a certain date, which leads to a lot of “drinks and muffins on me!”)

          1. Ada Doom*

            If a student ASKED to pay for me, I would absolutely turn that down. That’s an easy no.

          2. Glitsy Gus*

            Yeah, the meal card thing would be the only way I could see it working too, but that is VERY specific. Though I do want to thank you for reminding me of a very fun memory from my college dorm days when, as the only Undergrad working with a bunch of Grad students and one Professor in work study, walking in and saying, “Lunch for the whole team is on me! You too, Prof!” Because I had three days to burn through a ridiculous amount of meal plan credits. It’s the dorm version of making it rain.

    4. Marny*

      I started at “hm, no”. Then “nooo”. Then “oh noooooo”. Then “NOOOOOO”. And that’s where I’ve landed.

  10. Lena Carabina*

    Omg OP.
    This is one of those instances where you must be too close to it to see it properly.

    I read the headline and thought, oh I bet co-worker is overreacting but then I read the letter and thought ‘holy h3ll!’
    This is so, so bad. You have to stop it now.

    1. Rachel*

      Yes, I thought this letter was going to go in a whoooole different direction than it did.

      OP, your coworker did you a huge favor. I hope you do the self-examination Alison suggested, and it wouldn’t hurt to thank your coworker for the heads-up.

      1. A Silver Spork*

        I read the title thinking it was like the one where an employee told the LW she couldn’t go to lunch with her own husband, because “he’s married and that’s inappropriate” since they didn’t exactly announce their relationship.

        I was not expecting… this.

    3. EvilQueenRegina*

      Yes, this. It happens that while reading the archives (which I’ve been doing a lot of when I want a break from covid) I’d come across a letter from someone whose coworker was calling her out a lot on supposedly flirting with a male coworker and that person was overreacting, so my mind was initially going down that route.

      Then I read the letter and my jaw dropped at the toner conversation.

      Jane was right to raise it. And if she’s picked up on it, the likelihood is others have. In fact if others have made a joke about work spouses, it sounds like a lot of people have. Yes it does happen where people overreact but this doesn’t sound like the case here. The next person to bring it up might be your boss. Keep that in mind.

    4. HS Teacher*

      The OP is trying to minimize it to put themself in the best light, and it STILL sounds awful. Imagine if they were open about everything going on.

      1. Joielle*

        I honestly wondered if Jane wrote this letter, that’s how bad it makes the OP look – but then I figured if Jane wrote it, she could have just described it from her own perspective, so what would be the point? If the OP was willing to write down these details, there are DEFINITELY more damning details that she didn’t include.

  11. Kierson*

    OP, if another man is making you feel more attractive than you have felt in years, there is an element of emotional cheating going on. Explore that feeling while you examine if you’re cut out for HR. I hope you come out of this on the other side with some clarity.

    1. Tyche*

      This. I might be reading between the lines a bit too much, but OP should really examine the why behind why they wouldnt tell their husband about this. Is it really that he has nothing to worry about, or is it possibly more than that? A spouse would be within their rights to be put off.

      Aside from that, though, this behavior is extremely unprofessional and shouldnt be acceptable in the workplace. OP is lucky Jane brought it up with her first. Some coworkers would go to a manager.

      1. many bells down*

        I told my husband “if I came home from work and said I was flirting with an 18 year old, I hope you would have some serious questions about my judgment.”

    2. Bostonian*

      Yeah, that comment about how he makes her feel is a huge indicator that this relationship is extremely inappropriate.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Was just getting on here to say that. ” . . . but that’s not relevant”, oh, yes it is. You may not want to think so but everything you just wrote here says it’s relevant.

      I’ve had chummy relationships, or at least interactions, with male coworkers (I’m a straight woman) but never anything that I would hesitate to relate to my boyfriend. Definitely nothing like the OP described!

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, same here. But all of the guys I’ve had that sort of chummy work relationship with have been about the same age as I am and my peers, so no power differential either way.

    4. Georgina Fredricka*

      this makes me think about how a lot of very typical life experiences/issues are constantly portrayed through men.

      What I mean: most of us can only recognize the signs of a heart attack & other serious issues if it corresponds with the symptoms MEN experience. Because that’s typically what’s portrayed in media!

      Similarly, we have a lot of talk culturally about how men transition into middle age – and the difficulties with doing so – and their corresponding habits (dating younger women, flashy cars, strange decisions to try and relive youth)

      BUT- we don’t talk as much about how that looks for women. I think a huge component of this story is honestly mid-life crisis – instead of confronting what it means to be “not young” or at least “not considered young by society” anymore, OP is trying to subvert reality by enjoying the attentions of an 18 year old AND focusing on the compliments that alleviate aging anxiety (legs)

      *armchair psychology done*

    5. AnotherSarah*

      YES. I think personally that mutual flirting btwn colleagues is fine IF you’re not in HR/supervisory role and IF neither party is a student, but that’s the part to always examine. And if there is a “this person makes me feel great” vibe, again, okay, but examine whether it would be okay if your SO or anyone else saw. If not, then there are lines being crossed.

    6. Alice's Rabbit*

      Absolutely. If you’re turning to someone other than your spouse to feel attractive and have your emotional needs met, you’ve already cheated. It’s called an emotional affair, and it is just as damaging to a marriage as a physical one. It’s also the first step to every extramarital sexual affair.

    1. Mainly Lurking (UK)*

      Amongst all the yike-feelings, what jumped out at me was that it’s only a WEEK since they had coffee and he took her arm (purportedly to help he up from the bench) and now the OP is talking about all the times they manage to touch each other at work … Jane is definitely not the only person who has noticed something going on.

      1. Lady Meyneth*

        Oh wow, I didn’t even notice that. Yes, having this level of inappropriateness crammed in one week, I doubt *anyone* in the office hasn’t noticed yet.

  13. Littorally*

    Holy mackerel, OP.

    You’re in your 40s. Don’t flirt with teenagers. Workplace schmorkplace, don’t flirt with teenagers. That you, as HR, are doing so in the workplace triples down on what’s already skeezy to begin with. Half your age plus seven, come on!!

    1. anonymous 5*

      good heavens, this. And honestly, even half the age plus seven has the tendency to look pretty cringeworthy IRL. In HR? Ohhhhhhhh HELLLLLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOO

      2. Igorette*

        Depends! It’s an arbitrary number. Why not 5 or 9? Why 7?
        I was 24 when I met my now husband. According to that rule, I should have been 25. I don’t think that one year has made any difference. And we’re adorable!

        But yeah, 18 and 40 is too much…. A year either end wouldn’t save that

        1. ampersand*

          Yes, 18 and 40 is never good. I’m 40, I remember being 18, I’ve worked with, managed, and have had clients that were 18, and the difference between the life experience and knowledge that people have at these two ages is so vast that there’s no excusing this.

        2. Vina*

          You want a hard and fast rule? I’ll give you one: sometime after college graduation around age 25.

          Why? We know – absolutely know – that 25 is about the age when the brain becomes fully mature. (It many be slightly younger for women).

          That’s also an age where most people have either graduate college or have had life experience (work, military, etc). So, no longer a teen without enough info or brain development to fully understand the risks and rewards of a relationship.

          Also, I understand what this is personal to you. However, anytime something like this comes up, we always get – but I was 18 when I met my husband and we’ve been together 50 years. Great! I’m glad it worked out for you. That does not, however, mean it needs to be the applicable rule for everyone.

          Also, 18 is vastly different than 24 or 25. It just is. So your situation v. This teenagers? Not comparable to me at all.

          Also, for you, the one year didn’t make a difference. Great. But 25 should be a benchmark from which we work b/c that’s what the science tells us. It doesn’t have to be a black letter law rule, but it should be a staring point.

          Again, that one year may have made zero difference for you, but we have to start with something.

          From some experts:

          “ It doesn’t matter how smart teens are or how well they scored on the SAT or ACT. Good judgment isn’t something they can excel in, at least not yet.

          The rational part of a teen’s brain isn’t fully developed and won’t be until age 25 or so.

          In fact, recent research has found that adult and teen brains work differently. Adults think with the prefrontal cortex, the brain’s rational part. This is the part of the brain that responds to situations with good judgment and an awareness of long-term consequences. Teens process information with the amygdala. This is the emotional part.

          In teen’s brains, the connections between the emotional part of the brain and the decision-making center are still developing—and not always at the same rate. That’s why when teens have overwhelming emotional input, they can’t explain later what they were thinking. They weren’t thinking as much as they were feeling.”

          This is precisely why a 40 year old should not ever engage int his behavior with an 18 year old. Period.

          1. Vina*

            PS If you really, sincerely want to think about this, I suggest googling brain development + 25. There is a whole host of articles. Pages and pages of results.

            This doesn’t mean 18 year olds can’t have some adult responsibilities. They can. What it does mean is that anyone who is a over that threshold sufficiently to know they have a “mature” Brian, should exercise both respect and caution when dealing with someone young enough to be certain their brain is not “mature.”

            Maybe a 25-26 year old with an 18 year old is ok. Maybe not. I’ll leave that up to you. But 40 is well past the age where one should be adult. 18 year old is well under it.

            This is not a case, like yours, where there is a shade of gray.

            1. Vina*

              PPS, Anyone wanting to have a physically or emotionally intimate relationship with someone under age 25 needs to proceed with EXTREME caution and a lot of thoughtfulness. Neither of which is being evidenced by LW.

              I would never say that all age-gap relationships with those 18 and above are always exploitive. The ones that aren’t are ones where the older, more experienced party is aware of their power and limits its use. When used, it is always benevolent and for the betterment of the younger person.

              That is absolutely, positively not what is going on here. What is going on here is denial, denial, denial and it’s exploitive.

              Just because there are some other relationships out there and some theoretical possibility that some abstract 40 year old could have a healthy relationship with an abstract 18 year old doesn’t make this situation ok.

              1. Diahann Carroll*

                Well said – all of it. I keep seeing the, “Well, legally he’s an adult” argument in defense of OP’s actions, and hell no – don’t care, his brain is not fully formed. He is still very much a child developmentally speaking.

                1. Vina*

                  I assume any relationship with someone over 30 and the other party late teens/early 20s is exploitive until shown otherwise. I’ve never been shown otherwise.

                  I’m sure this happens, but I’ve never seen it. What I’ve seen is tons of examples of exploitation and long-term negative effects on the younger person.

                  Oh, and all the science and statistics back that up.

                  If LW cared about this kid at all, she’d stop.

                  She’s so blinded by the limerence and ego kibbles that she cannot see anything rationally. It’s like she’s on drugs.

                2. Diahann Carroll*

                  @Vina I was that younger person. It took years of therapy for me to come to terms with the fact that the 25 year old man who got involved with me six months after I turned 18 was a predator and was emotionally abusive. I can’t even imagine how much worse it would have been if he had been in his 40s!

                3. Jules the 3rd*

                  Based on my <25 experience, my rule of thumb for <25s is '2 year age delta'. So much changes from 16 – 24 that anything more than 2 years just has the two people at very different places in their lives. I'd make an exception for someone who has been supporting themselves for a couple of years (ie, is paying their own rent and transportation) dating an older person, but only about one more year.

                4. allathian*

                  Well, adolescent, 18 is not 13. I have absolutely no problems with 18 year olds dating and having sex with each other, provided both parties want to do it and take the appropriate precautions against unwanted pregnancy in a het relationship and STDs. But 18 and 40+? Nope, nope, nopity nope.

        3. Joielle*

          I also feel like a big age gap is a bit less questionable when the people involved are older. At least then you both have fully-developed brains and theoretically have SOME life experiences in common.

          1. Vina*

            Oh, exactly. If I saw a 75 year old and a 40 year old, I would not care. Both are ADULTS.

            Now, I’d worry there was too much of a stage of life or generation gap for it to be workable. But that’s their problem.

        4. Quill*

          I think the idea was that “half your age +7” comes from the lower end of this situation, that for example if you were 22 dating an 18 year old (still a whyyyy, but common enough in previous decades, especially when the cultural idea was that girls went to college in order to secure a husband, who should already be able to provide for her) people would previously think that’s fine.

          I’ve also pretty much never seen that rule anywhere that isn’t deeply creepy or used to justify a relationship that has a plethora of other problems. And I’ve also, curiously, never seen this applied in reverse, with the slightly more algebraically confusing formula of “half your age plus seven, subtracted from your age, is the maximum years OLDER than you that you should date” which turns around and invalidates pretty much every person who whips out “it fits the half plus seven rule!”

    3. Observer*

      You’re in your 40s. Don’t flirt with teenagers. Workplace schmorkplace, don’t flirt with teenagers.

      Yup. 1000x over!

      1. Vina*

        Yes, it’s not just that he’s a younger man/there is an age gap. He’s a teenager. There’s at least two generations between them.

        Personally, I think one -generation gap is my limit. I can relate to Boomers and Millennials as an Xer. Beyond that, the frame of reference is different to really relate well. I do have friends who are in their 90s and mentoring relationship with Gen Z (what’s the shorthand for that?). But a relationship?

        2. ampersand*

          I agree with everything you’ve said here….also, this letter is a freaking dumpster fire of problems. I hope the LW takes Alison’s advice to heart and seriously rethinks her choices and ideas of what’s okay/not okay.

  14. EGA*

    Yikes. I hope LW puts s stop to this becomes a serious issue.

    I also hope she communicates with her husband so that flirting with him makes her feel attractive!

  15. Smeralda*

    Also I don’t think you should be letting a student worker buy you coffee? Weird power dynamic

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Exactly!

        Going to get coffee and chat: fine. Buying them coffee: Fine, you’re the one with more power in the situation, so not unheard of. Letting an 18-year-old student employee buy you coffee: RED FLAG

        1. 867-5309*

          I cannot even recall a time I allowed anyone who reported to me or was more junior to me buy my coffee when we’ve gone out, and those people are all 20-something college grads.

          1. GirlfromIpanema*

            Very much the same. I never let anyone junior to me buy anything, ever- not coffee, lunch, or a safety pin. It’s not always as icky and red flag as this situation, but at a minimum that person certainly makes less than I do and I’m their boss, so it’s just not cool to let them pay.

          2. Alice's Rabbit*

            The only time I have ever bought something for my boss, he legitimately forgot his wallet that day, and was clearly starving. It was our lunch break, and I knew he only had about 10 minutes to eat before a meeting, so I bought him a snack at the cafeteria. He paid me back precisely, the very next day, and started keeping an emergency 5 bucks in his desk.
            But that is so incredibly different from this, they aren’t even on the same page. Also, I told my husband all about it.

        2. Bee*

          This was so wildly off-base that it contributed to my sense that the OP was really young – I remember being 23 and completely broke and never turning down a free anything. But even just a few years later, you should have a better understanding of the power differential AND the pay differential!

        3. Metadata minion*

          The one situation I can think of that not being seriously weird is if, say, it was an informational-interview sort of situation where you’d offered to sit down over coffee with the student and talk about your career. And even then as the older employee I would thank them and then pay for both coffees because that’s just what you *do* when the other person is a college student.

          1. 867-5309*

            Of course. I meant that as an illustrative example but absolutely there are instances where someone earlier in their career might buy the coffee.

      2. KaciHall*

        I think that should has sailed. It already IS a serious issue.

        I’m a decade younger than OP, not in HR or any position of even pseudo-authority, and if I acted even half this bad with my company’s interns I would be deservedly written up. And they are college students so probably a bit older.

    2. PurpleSheep*

      There is so much wrong in this letter, but even is she can’t see the sexual stuff (!) surely she knew it was wrong to let him buy her coffee!!
      She must make so much more than him!!!

      1. M_Lynn*

        Exactly! No one making less money should EVER pay for someone older. Gender/flirtation aside- this is a huge abuse of power.

        1. Wednesday of this week*

          It sounds like his paying for coffee opened the door to everything since. His offer to pay, perhaps flirtatious, was flattering to her, and by accepting the offer she signaled that she was open to crossing boundaries and abusing her power over him. She has since continued to do that more and more.

          Not saying the coffee itself was crucial–I’m sure it would have kicked off another way if not with the coffee. But every inappropriate workplace story has some initial event when the lines were first blurred.

        2. LDN Layabout*

          I think age is irrelevant here, it’s about superiority.

          I haven’t had younger managers but I’m reaching the age where I might and I wouldn’t expect to buy for them. I have seen managers younger than my coworkers pay when others might be older.

          The person higher up the chain of command pays (I might get a grad this year! First chance to buy someone a tea or coffee)

          1. LawLady*

            I agree on this. My admin has a few decades on me, but the times that we’ve had coffee or breakfast, I buy. I get her a holiday gift. She does not get me one. Age doesn’t matter, but I’m more senior in the company, so it’s right and good that gifts flow from me to her and not vice versa.

          2. Vina*

            Age isn’t irrelevant. He’s 18, not 28. He’s a teenager whose brain is still immature. He’s a legal adult (in some states, not all). That doesn’t mean he’s capable of fully understanding and consenting to the relationship. He’s not.

            This is why 18 year olds are supposed to use their college years to learn how to adult. They learn that with others their age. Not with older people who can exploit their youth and young brain.

            The brain of an 18 year old is not adult in any sense. An 18 year old will almost never have relevant life experience (and if they do, that’s another problem).

            So, yes, age is relevant. As relevant as the superiority issue.

            1. Diahann Carroll*

              Thank you. She is grooming this boy in the workplace – this is predatory behavior that needs to stop. His age absolutely is relevant in that she is doubly wrong for using her power and authority to escalate this situation.

              1. Vina*

                I mean, this isn’t even a remotely borderline age (e.g., 24-26). He’s not even old enough to drink!

                What life experiences does he have? What basis does he have to process the risk of this behavior?

                There’s zero gray here wrt to the age issue.

                She is presumably an adult with an adult brain and life experience enough to know better. She’s making a choice as an adult. He’s not.

            2. Akcipitrokulo*

              I think LDN Layabout was addressing *only* the “who pays for coffee” issue in that comment – and for that and only that question, it’s true that “higher in food chain pays”, regardless of age.

          3. allathian*

            Yes, this. My current boss is younger than I am, and either we each pay our own or she pays. Her predecessor was more than a decade older than I am, and she always paid.

    3. InfoSec SemiPro*

      RIGHT?

      I don’t care if the interns/my mentees/students from university events who want to show off they got hired SAY they’re going to buy my coffee. The power and earning disparity is so huge that I pay, every time. Every time. Take your friends out for coffee to celebrate your new job, I, as your mentor, will pay.

      And that’s before we get to the inappropriateness of the touching (TOUCHING A STUDENT NO! BAD!) or the comments (sexually charged comments FROM HR?!?!). OP, you’re screwing up. You’re screwing up yourself. You’re screwing up Andre as he’s trying to learn professional norms (from you! and you’re failing him). You’re screwing up at some primary parts of your role and job function.

      A student worker is not a toy. Stop it, do your job, professionally, so he learns what professionalism is.

    4. Rehela*

      I think that an intern/student occasionally buying someone a coffee is alright; it’s a simple and relatively cheap way for them to repay someone who helped them out, network, and feel like they’re part of a team. As long as it isn’t a frequent thing. I felt awkward when people refused to let me buy them coffee (they didn’t even let me pay for my own coffee); it was like I was taking advantage of their generosity.

      This whole thing is icky though, no doubt; the coffee’s definitely a part of that.

      1. Observer*

        No. NO. NO!

        Sorry for yelling, but it doesn’t matter how “uncomfortable” it is. You NEVER let your employee buy you coffee – ESPECIALLY when it’s an intern / student worker.

        1. allathian*

          I agree. The student can thank for any networking etc. help by doing well at the job and by sending an appreciative thank you email or even *gasp* a handwritten note.

      2. Smithy*

        Personally, I think for interns/students – as opposed to junior staff – it’s even more important to overly model the upmost in professional norms. While on its own, I don’t see it as problematic, I think that in the spirit of modeling general norms such as more senior colleagues not expecting gifts from more junior colleagues – it’s a good overall practice. Not to the point of a more senior colleague immediately repaying a junior colleague for an occasional coffee, but because often intern/student tenures are shorter and there just isn’t as much as much of a window to demonstrate norms over time.

        Clearly the OP’s situation is wildly inappropriate, and I’m not equating an intern getting a more senior staff an occasional coffee on the same level – but I think why some people have those kinds of rules is because how significant the power differential can be.

        1. F.M.*

          Yes! Exactly this!

          When I went back to college in my late twenties, I wasn’t a teenager, and I was married to someone who was, at the time, making very good money. So when a professor that I adored helped me out with some extra tutoring (along with one or two other students) where we met once a week in a coffee shop to go over the texts, I offered to buy her coffee and bagel. And when she demurred, I insisted that no, really, I’m not on a standard student income, I can afford it!

          …to which she replied that faculty should never let students pay the bill for them if they have food when meeting up, and ideally faculty–especially tenured faculty!–should pay for everyone, because there’s already a power dynamic at play.

          I got a lot of good advice from her about things like that. It’s one of the reasons she’s still very fondly remembered, even though I only ever had two classes with her.

      3. Miki*

        It might be awkward in the moment, but it’s good to model the norm that the lower rank person shouldn’t have to “pay” for the higher rank person’s time.

        Think of pyramid schemes and Landmark Forum and other work-related scams: they’re often premised on the idea that the new person *must* pay in order to join/earn their place/get wisdom from their leader. Spending money up the chain is a red flag that something is off.

        1. Smithy*

          In addition to systems that more blatantly abuse employees, I also think that it can be helpful for modeling mentoring and networking in the space of reinforcing those interactions and relationships as *not* being romantic.

          Regardless of gender or sexual preference, a senior colleague taking a junior colleague for coffee or even an occasional happy hour should be interpreted as a professional interaction. A junior employee accepting such an invite that turns into being inappropriate, it’s not the junior employee’s fault.

          This reminds me of the letter last week with the young woman still wondering if she’s done something wrong or misinterpreted the LinkedIn request. A year later and clearly, she was still wondering “did I do something wrong”. The more other colleagues model appropriate professional norms, that builds confidence in younger professionals – particularly those who are women or don’t have a lot of family or friends to give professional guidance.

      4. Joielle*

        I think it’s ok for an intern or student to OFFER to buy a mentor a coffee, and the mentor should see that as the gesture of good will that it is, but the mentor should never accept. It’s just not how the power dynamic works. As an intern, you should also understand this (perhaps the mentor should explain it) and understand that you don’t need to feel awkward about it.

        If an intern wants to do something nice for their mentor they can write a heartfelt thank you card.

      5. Quill*

        No, it would be one thing if it were extras / leftovers or something he got free but didn’t want, it’s another, absent other circumstances, to teach him that someone with more spending power expects freebies from him.

    5. The Original K.*

      Right?! She knows what he makes! Gifts, who treats who, etc. should always flow down. It sounds like OP wanted this to be a date.

    7. Van Wilder*

      Exactly! The fact that she let him buy coffee turned it from “mentor/mentee coworker” situation into a “man/woman date” situation. NOT OKAY.

    8. Penny*

      If she wouldn’t let any other intern buy her coffee, she should not have let Andre buy her coffee. It screams inappropriate and like a date!

  16. Decima Dewey*

    Hasn’t nearly every illicit affair ever been preceded by one of the parties telling themselves or others “I’d never cheat on my spouse/significant other and never will”?

    1. Littorally*

      Right? And justified by “this person makes me feel better/happier/younger/more desirable.”

        1. Clisby*

          Me, too. Possibly partly because I have an 18-year-old son. I kind of want slap OP silly.

    2. Batgirl*

      Yeah; nobody is immune to feeling attractions to others, but the only ones who really need to worry are the ones playing chicken with that concept. Personally, if it were my spouse, I would consider this type of behaviour cheating even if it never went any further. They’re dating at work. I would leave a relationship over this.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        “Playing chicken with that concept” is a perfect way to describe this. They are playing a dangerous game and someone’s going to get hurt.

        1. Observer*

          I would put it as someone is going to get MORE hurt. Because Andre is ALREADY being hurt, even if he doesn’t know it yet.

        2. Alice's Rabbit*

          Yes! My mom always told me “You can’t cheat if you never put yourself in a position where cheating is possible.” If you don’t want to cross that line, don’t even get close to the line.

      2. A Silver Spork*

        I think most people would consider it an emotional affair, at this point! The touching, the quasi-date behavior with the coffee, the toner comment (!!!), the not telling her husband… I mean, the LW even calls it flirting in her own letter! I know some relationships don’t treat flirting as cheating, but I think the fact that she’s not telling her husband about it is indicative that hers is not one of them.

        I’d seriously consider divorce if my spouse was doing this with a regular friend, but the work and power dynamic just makes it so much worse.

        1. Batgirl*

          Absolutely to your last point. Also, you cant walk away from things that have overheated when it’s your livelihood. OP is operating on the assumption it’s ‘private’ and ‘hubby doesn’t need to know’ but OP is so giddy she’d have better luck hiding Lord Lucan in her handbag.
          So, if her husband sees it as an emotional affair and needs contact to stop, then what? Leave the job? Lose the marriage? This is actually the best case dilemma since the other alternative is “There’s no choice to make; You’re fired”. It’s a disaster waiting to happen.

          1. allathian*

            Yes. Seriously, she could be fired for this, because she’s surely failing in her most important job, teaching a student employee proper workplace norms. And she’s in HR!

  17. Karo*

    I was all ready to be indignant on OP’s behalf, and then I got to the touching part and started feeling like she needed to reign it back…And then I read about the jokes and my jaw dropped open.

    OP, this isn’t okay, and even if your excuses were valid, they don’t hold water. It’s *not* private – others have witnessed it. People *are* complaining – Jane is one of them.

    More than anything else, it’s not that you’re being unbecoming because you’re 40something, it’s that you’re being gross because you’re an adult in a workplace.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      YES. This behavior would not somehow be more acceptable from another 18 year old, or if your target was also 40 something, or if you were single, or if the genders were reversed, or under literally any other circumstances. Like, if you worked with your husband and you were doing all this with HIM at work, STILL WILDLY INAPPROPRIATE.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        If the genders were reversed, OP would already be convicted.

        OP needs to sit Andre down, dispassionately explain her mistakes–yes, he’s wrong, too, but as the senior individual, it’s OP’s role to own it–and put a stop to the inappropriateness immediately. It’d be a further disservice to Andre to create the understanding that this will be appropriate for him going forward in his career.

        1. MayLou*

          When you say convicted, do you mean literally of a criminal offence, or just in the court of public opinion? If the latter I agree, but as far as I know in the USA 18 is over the age of consent so even if they’d actually had sex, it wouldn’t be a crime. In the UK the age of consent is 16, but if a teacher has a sexual relationship with a student at their school, even if they’re 16, 17 or 18, that’s also a crime – although I don’t think that is the case once they’re at university.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            The court of public opinion, and possibly by the employer for breach of policy, but not literally a criminal conviction.

      2. Galloping Gargoyles*

        Yes this right here. This behavior is so inappropriate for the workplace in general. Then you add in the 18/40-something age gaps ~and~ that this is a student worker and an HR person and it goes from “yikes” to “this can’t even be a real letter” or “holy crap, Batman, what the heck is wrong with you, OP?!?”.

        OP, I hope you’re reading all this feedback and really reflecting on how many people are saying to stop this behavior now. I think Allison’s advice is spot on. Please take the time to do the soul searching that she has recommended and determine if HR is really the right field for you.

        1. So they all rolled over and one fell out*

          Absolutely. I would NOT want to hear this kind of gross conversation between two of my coworkers, regardless of their ages, genders, power differentials, roles in the company, marital status, etc. But in the OP’s case, every one of those factors compounds to make it even worse.

    3. ieAnon*

      Same! I’ve heard others in academia be accused of having a “flirtatious” relationship with student employees because they were advocating for them to attend a conference as a learning experience or because they were developing a mentorship with the student. That’s what I expected going into this letter, not this craziness!

      I have also seen a VERY inappropriate relationship between a student and administrator, though, so I know this is not outside the realm of possibility.

      1. Casper Lives*

        One of my professors got fired for sleeping with a student. He taught small discussion-based honors classes for us as 1st & 2nd tear honors students. The professor was an attractive, fit, early 30s guy who would play shirtless pickup outside our dorms. When she told the dean later, he decided it was between consensual adults (and prof had tenure). Nothing was done. When a tenured honors female professor with a daughter our age heard about it… I hear she burst into the dean’s office and there was much heated discussion. Ultimately the male prof was fired.

        1. Quill*

          Sometimes you need a mom to come and fight the administration. That’s how a local high school got a cheer coach fired for making sexually demeaning comments about her cheerleaders. Somebody’s mom rolled up her sleeves and did not come back until there was a body count.

      2. Kate*

        Yeah, I was totally expecting “you spend so much time teaching him” type of accusation. Not sexual jokes and touches at workplace…

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yes, I supervise 18 year old students and I kept thinking if I heard someone speak to one of my students like this, I would be horrified. This is very much not okay.

  19. Katiekaboom*

    5 Million yikes.
    “He’s been spending a lot of time in my office since that’s where the scanner is” Understandable.
    “He suggested we grab lunch together” OK.
    “He offered to pay” Um… Questionable.
    “He took my arm to help me up” Unless your leg is broken or you’re elderly…no
    “We brush up against each other in the hallway” Are your hallways 2 feet wide?
    “Do you bang your dates like that?” STOP

      1. Emi.*

        Honestly my alarm bells went off as soon as we got to “Andre.” I feel like that’s kind of a hot name, you know? There’s a reason OP chose it instead of John Doe or one of the AAM standbys like Fergus.

      2. Kate R*

        Yeah. I was really trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, even brushing off Andre holding her arm because while I personally think it’s weird, people have different thresholds for physical interaction. But the innuendos sent me over the edge, and this comment just struck me as so odd. My parents and close friends know the name of my coworkers just because when I talk about my life, I talk about work. So I think it’d be normal for OP to have mentioned Andre to her husband instead of, he “doesn’t need to know”. That came across to me as there really was something to hide.

        1. Parenthetically*

          “innuendos”

          That’s not an innuendo, it’s the opening scene of a porno.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I was alright with helping her up–if it’s not intentionally done in a wrong way, that’s pretty harmless. I would see that roughly on level with holding a door under normal circumstances.

      But the rest? +5MM.

      1. 867-5309*

        Honestly, I thought she was elderly because he was “helping her up.” It wasn’t until the point that she said she was 40-something that I realized it was date-like behavior.

      2. Delta Delta*

        I was thinking that, too. When I was Andre’s age, it was sort of the habit among my peers that if one was sitting and others were standing, a standing person would extend a hand to help up the sitting person. No idea why we all did this (from being on sports teams, maybe?), but I can see where to a kid that might seem totally normal but to an outsider who has observed increased flirting it would seem really inappropriate.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          There’s more than one way to help a coworker up, too, and some are more appropriate than others.

        2. KatieKaBoom*

          My mom is disabled and has been since I was a child, so I’m in the habit of offering my arm to people over a certain age, even if they don’t seem like they need it. It’s just a habit now and I usually don’t even realize I’m doing it.

        2. Diahann Carroll*

          Yup. Combined with buying her coffee and inviting her to lunch, Andre is dating OP (in his mind at least). This is all date-like behavior. The fact that OP can’t see this for what it is is disturbing.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            I had to reread the letter a few times because I felt like I kept missing where it said they were quacking to each other.

            2. PeonyBella*

              I thought they’d already crossed the line but had forgotten about the duck line!

              1. Quill*

                Dear Penthouse, I never thought it would happen to me, but 20 years after I wrote in about the Duck Club…

        3. miss_chevious*

          Yeah, the helping up is one thing (although I would have ignored it unless I actually needed help), but the arm holding? No. NO NO NO. In the U.S., at least, that speaks to social intimacy and is not something that co-workers do.

    3. Jennifer Strange*

      Honestly, I think even grabbing lunch together isn’t a great idea given that she’s HR (and since he’s a teenager here as part of a student group). It’s be one thing if OP was his manager or if the two of them were going out as part of a group to grab lunch, but just the two of them comes across as odd (obviously it’s the least red flag of the ones here – maybe more of a pink flag).

      1. SciDiver*

        Came here to say this too. OP says she gets coffee with other coworkers so why not Andre…honestly you shouldn’t be doing social coffee hour with non-HR employees! If she was his manager/mentor/some other formal role that puts her in a position to manage him, that might be appropriate, but it’s definitely not in this case.

    4. Bostonian*

      I had that exact same progression of reactions as I read this letter! I went into it trying to see things from OP’s side, but ended up seeing Nothing but Nope.

    5. Miss May*

      It just kept getting worse! Its like that gif of the football player saying, “they had us in the first half not gonna lie…”

      It sounds like OP is trying to rationalize the behavior and NOBODY is having it here.

    6. aubrey*

      Same progression for me as I read it, at the beginning I was hoping she was just being nice to the student worker and the coworker was someone who read too much into friendliness… but then noooooo. All the touching and the toner and legs comments would be work inappropriate even if they were both teenage student workers but her being so much older and senior in the company and IN HR is just a whole other level of wrong.

  20. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Typically on this site we find the “Janes” to be nosy busybodies. Bravo to this Jane for doing her job. It sounds like Jane wants to give the LW the benefit of the doubt and a chance to modify her behavior… and this LW just wants to keep nurturing her budding relationship with Andre. Ew.

    I don’t care that you’re married. I don’t even care that he’s 18. I care that you’re AT WORK and you’re the one in charge of making sure this stuff doesn’t get out of hand.

    1. Ali G*

      Yes! I was all set for Jane to be an annoying busybody who needs to mind her own damn business, but NO. Jane is right and trying to help the LW. LW needs to come out of her haze of a new relationship high and get back here on earth with the rest of us.

    3. Hoo boy*

      And I would like to remind the letter-writer that because of the unfortunate biases people have, Jane probably would not have given her the benefit of the doubt if she was a man and Andre was a woman.

      You are disgusting, OP. If you don’t stop this immediately, then don’t be surprised if you become the subject of public outrage in due time.

      1. Wednesday of this week*

        Men get the benefit of the doubt in these situations all the time, which is why they are so common. Universities in particular are rife with male faculty and staff who harass students with little to no accountability, and men are still far more frequent perpetrators.

        2. Hoo boy*

          I see what you mean, and I didn’t know that about universities.

          The reason for my earlier comment, however, is that while both sexes can become the perpetrators and victims of sexual harassment, it is often downplayed if the woman is the perpetrator and the man is the victim.

          A clear example is when teachers have inappropriate relations with students and how they are reported:

          For the male teacher, “EIGTH-GRADE TEACHER RAPES 13-YEAR-OLD STUDENT,” accompanied with the teacher’s mugshot.

          For the female teacher, “EIGHTH-GRADE TEACHER HAS AFFAIR WITH TEENAGED STUDENT,” accompanied by the teacher’s cute selfie, sometimes even a full-body selfie.

          In the latter case, if the victim is male, comments that come up too often are how “lucky” the victim was, especially if the female perpetrator was conventionally attractive.

          Everyone here in this comment section fortunately sees the tragedy for what it is in the letter, and it looks like things are looking up in terms of the biases society places on these situations.

  21. ChemistryChick*

    I…just…oh dear.

    OP, I also think you need to understand that you’re doing Andre a massive disservice regarding his future employment anywhere else. He’s going to think this is normal and ok, and I guarantee it will hurt him professionally if you don’t take all of Alison’s advice.

    1. EGA*

      Wow, I hadn’t even thought about that angle. Really well put. Poor Andre may think this is OK/normal (especially since it is with someone in HR), and inadvertently harass someone in a future job.

      1. AKchic*

        He might be harassing other women *now* at this very job site outside of LW’s hearing/sight and LW may not be aware of it.
        However, if someone complains about Andre’s harassment, will LW be unbiased, or will Andre face less scrutiny/punishment due to favoritism and the inappropriate relationship going on, and will the victim be treated fairly at all because the victim could be seen as a potential rival for Andre’s affections?

        This are legitimate questions now that the LW’s impartiality come into question.

    2. Diahann Carroll*

      Exactly this. She’s encouraging highly unprofessional behavior that’s going to get him fired anywhere else. Presumably, he’s working in OP’s office to learn office norms – OP, you are not helping this kid. Leave him alone, get therapy for your self esteem issues, and deal with your marital problems without involving an innocent third party who works for you.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I agree with Allison’s advice and all of the Commentariat above, but this one is SO true. If Andre somehow is led to believe that this is normal workplace behavior and takes this elsewhere . . . he’s not going to do well and he’ll be subjecting his new colleagues to deeply inappropriate behavior and comments.

    4. Daffy Duck*

      Definitely! She is teaching him that sexual discussions and touching at work are acceptable. The fact that she works in HR makes this really, really unacceptable.
      He will try this with another person at work and if not get booted out immediately have a huge black mark on his record and a dressing down. She is setting him up for a horrible reputation that can really impact his future work life (as in no one will want to hire him).

  22. Justin*

    “Nobody’s complaining.”

    Yes, that’s what people in positions of power usually say!

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Right– my boss always says, “If you have a problem, tell me!” Well, not so easy when he dismisses every complaint. He’s pretty typical.

    4. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

      Plus, someone IS complaining: Jane! Just because you don’t like what she’s saying doesn’t mean she doesn’t count.

    5. username required*

      They might not be complaining but you can be darn sure they are discussing the situation and OP’s awful behaviour.

    7. Cedarthea*

      I run a camp, we always go over this concept

      “Just because you are okay with it, doesn’t mean it’s okay”.

      Overnight summer camp is a cesspool of boundary issues (too many people who are too close for too long) but its still a workplace and so I do my best to teach workplace norms and that is a big one. Just because you are okay with someone (peer of either gender or a camper) sitting on your lap, doesn’t mean its appropriate or acceptable.

      1. Quill*

        High school theater was another one of those with nonexistent boundaries (couch stacking game, anyone?) but at least none of us was supervising anyone significantly younger than us.

        Honestly though we had better boundaries based on a system of “harass anyone and the senior in charge of you will make you clean the bathrooms with a toothpick” than some of our advisors… which chills me in retrospect.

    8. Alice's Rabbit*

      Jane is complaining. If one person has the guts to speak up about something like this, guaranteed other people are gossiping about it.

  23. Yeah_I know*

    I guarantee that you are not as private as you think you are.

    I have endured the “private” flirtations of several sets of coworkers and it is always uncomfortable. They probably were just having a fun flirt at work and not having an actual romantic relationship, but it was enough to make me want to leave the room every time.

    And these were all adults close in age and authority level to each other.
    The fact that he is so young and new to the work force and you are a grown woman in HR just makes this 100 times worse.

    1. Sara without an H*

      This. Trust me, OP, “Jane” is not the only one who’s noticed your behavior, and word is probably spreading even as I type this.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, even if you take out the LW being married, the LW being older, the LW working in HR—if they were both single, both older, not working in the same department, not working in HR, and they just wanted to flirt and date… those kinds of sexual innuendos in the workplace are wholly inappropriate, and if you think you’re making them only when others can’t hear, you’re wrong.

    3. HS Teacher*

      I had a coworker I became close friends with, and people in the office were whispering about her having an affair with another of our coworkers. I told her what people were saying because we were friends, and I defended her whenever I heard the whispering.

      It wasn’t long before she left her long-time husband and married the guy. They’re still married, but they left a path of destruction behind them. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. I gave her the benefit of the doubt because we were friends, and to this day she insisted their relationship started after she left her husband, but I disagree; the relationship started with the flirting and going to lunch together almost every day.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Absolutely. I have also noticed this before and it has never been okay. The HR angle, power differential and several other factors make this even more not okay.

  24. MsClaw*

    What a terrible example to set for this student employee! You’re doing Andre a huge disservice by teaching him that physical contact, open flirting, and social entanglement with a colleague is no big deal. Even if no one in your office cared about how inappropriate you two are being, what happens when he goes onto his next job and gets fired for sexually harassing a coworker. On the one hand, yes he should know better. On the other, he’s 18 and this may be his first professional job and what you’re telling him is that this behavior is normal. Gross. Stop it now. You can be friendly with coworkers, but none of that includes sexual innuendo and literally touching each other in the office.

    1. OrigCassandra*

      Oops, jinx — our comments crossed in the ether. Suffice to say I entirely agree!

      1. MsClaw*

        Ha! Yeah, this is just amazingly inappropriate. I’m thinking there are going to be a lot of similar comments as everyone is just agog at how this woman is behaving.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      yep.

      18.

      Student.

      Being told by 40+ person in *HR* that harassing behaviour is normal social interaction.

      Poor kid.

    3. JB*

      Yes! This is a really crucial point! Part of your job is not just to train him in specific skills, but to expose him to workplace norms. You are explicity teaching him that touching, flirting, and sexual jokes are appropriate. He will carry that with him and act accordingly until he gets into big trouble. And hurts and damages women.

    4. Smithy*

      Absolutely this.

      Additionally – lots of jobs that people have in their teenage years/early 20’s can be a lot more lax on professional norms. Thinking certain kinds of seasonal employment, retail, food service, etc. Therefore, whether a student employee/intern enters a more traditional professional environment at 18 or 24 – even if it’s not their first job, it can often be incredibly critical to see how you can form friendships, networks, and socialize at work while remaining professional.

    5. Some Lady*

      Yes! If you actually like and care about this person, help him develop skills that will help him for the rest of his career, not norms that could get him in trouble.

  25. OrigCassandra*

    OP, I work at a university. If Andre were a student in a class of mine, or my advisee, and I learned what you set out in your letter, I would go on an immediate rampage to get you fired. That’s how bad this is.

    Alison and other commenters have discussed your derelictions in detail. I only have one thing to add: you are teaching Andre horrible work boundaries, putting him at serious career risk. He cannot behave at work the way you are teaching him to.

    Once you’re done with Alison’s suggested soul-searching, this is a thing you need to tell him — or better yet, ask Jane to do it, since Jane seems vastly more competent and work-appropriate than you are.

    1. AnotherSarah*

      +1. OP, if I heard from my student Andre or his cohort that this was happening, you would not be long in your job.

      1. Alice's Rabbit*

        If my nephew told me even half of this, I would be furious at OP’s flagrant abuse of her position and the damage she has done, both to his reputation and to his education.

    2. Quill*

      An actual good workplace mentor for an 18 year olds is someone who will hunt down the people who attempt a working relationship like this.

    3. Brisvegan*

      I was reading this long comment list to see if anyone said this!

      I am an academic and have placed students in work placements in a past role. If anyone told me that someone was treating a student the way OP is treating Andre, I would have taken immediate action. Andre and all other students would have been removed from the organisation, the organisation would have been flagged as somewhere to never send a student and I would have gone as high as possible in the organisation to explain why and make complaints about OP. Even if OP was fired, I would never send a student there again, since OP’s superiors and coworkers did not prevent the sexual harassment of my student. The risk and liability issues would be too great.

      I probably also would have told everyone I know in my Uni and others to avoid the organisation.

      OP would very likely lose her job if she worked in the professional field I teach in. Her organisation would NOT want to be known as a place where sexual harassment led to revocation of student placements.

  26. HBJ*

    After reading the title, I was waiting for this to turn into a letter like a couple prior ones where someone accused the LW of cheating on her husband when she got lunch with her husband, or other ones where LW has been accused of flirting when it wasn’t. But it never turned into that, and my eyebrows kept going up.

  27. PJ*

    This letter reads like the first fifteen minutes of a Lifetime movie.

    (Spoiler alert: those never seem to end well.)

      4. AKchic*

        “It’s totally platonic! I was inseminated at the clinic with his baby and I didn’t actually know it was his, I swear! I had been planning on IVF for a long time by a donor, and it’s just a coincidence that *he* was the anonymous donor!”

    2. The Original K.*

      In fact, I can think of a Lifetime movie that DID start in a similar way! I can’t think of the name of it but a married professor started an affair with her student, who was played by Brian Austin Green, and of course he started stalking her when she tried to break it off – he started dating her daughter to get closer to her.

      3. LifeBeforeCorona*

        There was a similar one. A friend of the mother started an affair with her son when he came to visit the local college? In the end the friend lost her BF and her lover also, I think. The details are vague because I watched it when I was home sick and kept nodding off.

      4. DarnTheMan*

        There’s also ‘My Teacher, My Obsession’ about a girl who moves to a new town and gets befriended by another girl who initially seems really nice – until it turns out the girl is secretly obsessed with the new girl’s dad, who’s a teacher at their school.

  28. AnonACanada*

    1) you’re at work, keep it professional.
    2) you’re in HR, you should know better!
    3) you never really have true privacy at work.
    4) if you wouldn’t say it in front of your spouse, it’s not good for your marriage.

    1. MonteCristo*

      #1 is the biggest for me…I wouldn’t find this appropriate office behavior from spouses, much less between HR and a student employee.

  29. Person from the Resume*

    Also … MOVE THE SCANNER so that your interaction time is reduced.

    I know the LW doesn’t want to do this because she is welcoming and enjoying the flirtation, but that is a concrete step in the right direction when she tries to reign in her inappropriate attraction to a teenager.

    5. Moose*

      I dunno . . . OP should be able to behave appropriately without needing to move office equipment.

      2. Alice's Rabbit*

        Should be able to, yes. But she clearly isn’t, and she has allowed this relationship to take a serious turn into Nopeville. She needs to end any contact with this kid that she can, STAT. That means moving the scanner, or leaving when he comes to use it. Among other things.

  30. 867-5309*

    I am rendered speechless.

    “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings…” Commonality doesn’t mean it isn’t uncomfortable for everyone else, even when both parties are peers. And everyone always knows. The fact that you sit in HR and are doing this with a student employee (!) only adds to the ick factor.

    1. 867-5309*

      I also keep thinking that one year ago this person was likely in HIGH SCHOOL. HIGH SCHOOL.

        1. allathian*

          Technically he’s an adult, even if just barely. But that doesn’t excuse her behavior at all, it would be inappropriate in the workplace even if they were the same age.
          And when it comes to coffee and lunch at work, the person with more seniority/bigger salary pays, or both pay their own way. Under no circumstances should the person with the smaller salary be expected to pay.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Emotionally and mentally, a teenager is still a child. I don’t care what he may be “technically” per the law – he just came out of high school. There was no switch that went off when he turned 18 that magically, suddenly made him an adult. The OP is grooming this child and being predatory in the workplace, and she needs to stop.

          2. The Other Katie*

            He just got out of high school.
            He’s probably still got acne and a few inches to grow.
            He’s not even entered his second decade yet.
            Being able to legally sign up for a bank account does not mean it’s open season. He’s a kid.
            (Not to mention, this would be very nearly as inappropriate if he were 30.)

          3. jenkins*

            I think if you have to use the word ‘technically’ to describe his adult status, it’s a bright neon sign that anyone more than a few years older than him should not consider him any kind of a romantic interest.

      2. Parenthetically*

        If this happened recently, it’s possible he was in high school two months ago!

      3. Quill*

        Honestly if this letter was written recently, it’s more likely he was in high school FOUR MONTHS AGO, you know, this spring.

      1. Alice's Rabbit*

        Agreed, because clearly, this isn’t harmless. If it was, she would have no problem telling her husband every little detail. After all, it’s harmless, right?

    4. Autistic Farm Girl*

      I’m under the impression that workplaces where flirting is common are also massively dysfunctional workplaces in loads of other ways. I’m not sure it’s something to aspire to!

      1. EPLawyer*

        that’s where I am. Where on EARTH is flirting in the office common — and accepted. Banter yes. Flirting no. I have to wonder where OP has been working all these years that she thinks this is a common practice.

    5. Ali G*

      The kind of flirting LW is doing with Andre is so not “nuanced social interactions.” It’s blatant sexual talk.

      2. Heidi*

        Agreed. If the examples given are what OP considers “nuanced,” what qualifies as blatant harassment?

        I get the feeling that the OP is not in a place to hear that what she’s doing is inappropriate for work and a damaging influence on Andre. She was likely expecting everyone to come to her defense against “meddling” Jane. I hope this ends better than we have reason to expect it to.

        1. fogharty*

          I wonder if OP chose what she thought were innocuous examples of workplace “banter” which leads me to wonder what other conversations they might have had and are they probably worse.

    7. Traffic_Spiral*

      Yeah, sounds like LW’s been reading too much Ether-Perel-esque “oh, but it’s perfectly ok to be cheating… those naysayers are just not *sophisticated* enough to understand your higher-chakra, elegantly-lounging-with-a-French-cigarette way of exuberantly living” crap.

      1. Traffic_Spiral*

        P.S. Not that this would be ok if she was single, mind you, but this sort of “no, this behavior is totally ok and just what the non-rubes do” attitude is something I’ve only seen in the Perel-verse.

    9. Viima*

      This part makes me seriously question her ability to do her job, because (aside from all the obvious things going on in her letter) if I was being harassed and reported it, am I going to be told that I just need to learn the nuances of office flirting? She’s not just being inappropriate in her position and personal life, she’s setting Andre up for career disaster later AND putting every single employee at risk of harassment by allowing this attitude.

  31. Chai Latte*

    I teach eighteen-year-olds and while they are adults in the legal sense they are psychologically and developmentally still in the throes of adolescence. We talk a lot about socially appropriate behavior, professional norms, and I worry about some of my more naive (or delusionally invincible) students finding themselves exploited in the great wide world. Andre may well know what he’s doing and claim his own autonomy, but OP certainly knows better and should not be building her self-esteem by risking his. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I’ve seen this show before and it never ends well for anyone.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      I teach eighteen-year-olds and while they are adults in the legal sense they are psychologically and developmentally still in the throes of adolescence.

      Because this bears repeating – OP’s behavior is predatory. Grooming is not okay even when the person doing so is a woman.

      2. Parenthetically*

        Amen! And further, grooming is not okay even when the person being groomed is a fully-fledged adult! I was extremely proud of my grad school for RAPIDLY firing a prof who was found to have groomed and slept with a student. He used his position of power to coerce her into sex and into secrecy about it, and just because she was in her 20s when it happens doesn’t mean it’s okay. It’s creepy AF.

    2. Fancy Owl*

      Yes, exactly! And I think a lot of 18-year-olds feel like they’re totally mature and adult because they’re used to being the big fish in high school but I’d bet money a lot of people look back on themselves at 18 and think, “Wow, I was so naive”. I know I do.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, me too. Although I was lucky and learned quickly and didn’t get into any serious trouble. But then, I was out on my own and paying my own way at 19, thanks to a system where I didn’t have to pay for tuition. I did have to work during weekends and summer vacs and was lucky enough to find jobs even during the 1990s recession, but my experience, while common in Northern Europe, is very different from what most US college students experience or what their parents expect.

      2. Kate*

        That kind of makes a 18yo MORE open to attack than a younger person – they themselves believing they are grown-up and mature.

        1. Wednesday of this week*

          Absolutely. If he felt vulnerable and out of his depth, he’d be more likely to tell a trusted older person, who would be like WTF.

          I’d actually say this about any young person in a subordinate work role, including myself earlier in life. Every one of them who flirts (or more) with a higher-up believes that they know exactly what they’re doing, are safe and in control, and that the power differential doesn’t apply in their situation for this or that reason. The older I get, the more convinced I am that there are *no exceptions.* The rules and laws are there because people’s own judgment just isn’t accurate.

      3. nm*

        Agreed! When I was 18 I felt very “grown up”. Now I teach 18 year olds and there’s no mistaking that they are not “full-grown” adults.

        1. allathian*

          Yes to this. They aren’t children like 11 or even 15 year olds are, and in most jurisdictions they are legally adult and responsible for their own actions. But they certainly aren’t *mature* adults. There’s a reason why in many wealthy families heirs don’t get full access to their inheritance until they turn 25. As it turns out, brain science gives some credit to the idea that humans aren’t fully mature until about age 25 (with women possibly maturing slightly earlier).

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      +100000

      I used to teach 18 year olds. Adults? Legally. By no means mentally or emotionally. There’s a lot of maturing still to do, which was dangerous for those 18 year olds that felt they could handle anything the world threw at them and that they knew *everything* about *everything*. I had to have a discussion more than once with a student about to fail because they got into a new ‘friend’ group and trusted too much.

      Absolutely agree that this is predatory on OP’s part.

      1. Mme*

        What’s with all these people shouting in horror that an 18-year-old is a “child”? I bet if the same 18-year-old assaulted or killed someone, they wouldn’t be encouraging the local D.A. to prosecute him as a juvenile.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Because there’s plenty of evidence to support that brain maturity has not happened yet for 18 year olds. Whether or not they’d be tried for murder as an adult is….. not on the same level as getting taken advantage of by an older, should-know-better, 40-something year old.

          And to be honest, no, I can’t say I agree that every 18 year old automatically needs to get charged as an adult. That’s a really broad blanket statement for topics that have a crap ton of nuance. 18 is not this magical number where Now Am Full Adult, Hear Me Roar.

          1. Quill*

            There’s also a gulf of decisionmaking difference between the two actions: percieving yourself to be sufficiently mature to be in a relationship with someone 20 years your senior is not an act of disregard for another person’s life, and 18 year olds have been taught not to harm other people for their whole lives, while they’ve generally never been taught about the risks to themselves in relationships.

            (Also, people far younger than 18 have been charged as adults in cases of murder. There’s a huge racial and economic disparity in teenage convictions, even ones that were judged to be in self defense. For example, I’m thinking of a local case where a sixteen year old victim of sex trafficking was sentenced as an adult for killing her abuser, which was just doubly awful in regards to the law saying “well, you’re black and 16, we won’t give you any of the protections we afford to children in the legal system.”)

        2. BookishMiss*

          Why is Andre’s ‘legally an adult’ status what you’re latching onto, here?

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Right?! What kind of shit is this?! He’s being sexually harassed by someone old enough to be his mother when he just got out of high school – his brain has not even fully developed yet, and OP thinks using this kid to make herself feel pretty is acceptable. And this language above is damn near co-signing the nonsense, smh.

            I’ll post here what I posted down below to an anonymous male poster who called this situation for what it is because I think the poster you responded to needs to see it:

            I’m sorry this happened to you, but I’m so glad you shared your story here and called this what it is from a man’s point of view: grooming. There are a lot of people acting obtuse in this thread saying, “Oh, he’s legally an adult. He’s not a child. He’s grown.”

            No, he’s not. Yes, he is still very much a child mentally and emotionally – there is not much difference between a 17 year old “child” and an 18 year old “adult.” And I have a hunch these same people would not be making these arguments if the victim in question was an 18 year old girl. Society has done a huge disservice to men in glorifying male hypersexuality, especially teenage male hypersexuality, to the point where people now don’t believe that boys and men can be victims of sexual harassment and abuse because he’s a guy – they’re always horny. Sleeping around with everyone, no matter the age, is what they do!

            No. We need to stop this. Stop giving people passes for violating adolescents, and start defending and protecting male children from adults who mean them harm.

        3. Avasarala*

          People really struggle with what to do with young adults in the 16-25 range. Are they children, in which case they can’t be trusted with anything and can’t be held responsible for their actions? Or are they adults, in which case they should know better and have to suffer the consequences of their actions?

          It’s not a black-and-white thing, and we don’t have a lot of good words for this stage (“young adult” emphasizes adult, “adolescent” emphasizes child, “teen” doesn’t work for 21-year-olds, “kid” is relative). The truth is somewhere in between. People in this stage are often incredibly intelligent, and individuals could be smarter than people much older. They’re often physically mature and can perform athletically, often better than people much older. They are sexually mature and can become parents. So it makes sense that society deems them adults in these regards.

          The issue is “wisdom and experience”–the one area that older people have it better! This is also a sliding scale and individuals are so different from each other. It’s a real shame that we don’t have a more nuanced way of determining adulthood, because it makes sense that a wise 16-year-old should be able to drive and make decisions for themselves, but an immature 23-year-old still has training wheels on. Currently different systems just make the case based on things like “well he’s black so he seems older” (per another letter we had on AAM) or “she’s a sweet girl who needs protecting” or “my kid is my baby forever” vs “that jerk [who is a young person whose age I don’t know]”. It’s so subjective and it’s unfair.

          But the bottom line is, even if Andre were OP’s age, OP’s behavior would be inappropriate. The age difference–and power differential that creates–is just another factor that makes this even worse.

          I don’t like describing 18-year-olds as “children” because I think it downplays the maturity and intelligence that they do have (and I think a great deal of the “but they’re so young!” feeling comes from people who are much older than 18). But it is still grossly inappropriate for 40-year-olds to flirt with 18-year-olds at work.

          1. allathian*

            Great post! People mature at different rates. I definitely have an issue with people describing 18-year-olds as children. Young adults, yes. Inexperienced adolescents who still have a lot to learn? Definitely.

  32. Delta Delta*

    I think it’s great to have a nice rapport with coworkers. And if coworkers get along and can talk about hobbies, that helps to make for a friendly workplace. But this really seems to have crossed over from shared interests into full-on flirting, and OP’s really got to reel it in.

    I also am uncomfortable with allowing Andre to have paid for the coffee. Yes, he gets paid for his job, but he’s a student, and OP is a grownup with a real job. Getting coffee is a nice perk that sometimes managers and student employees do together, but it seems like coffees ought to stop, too.

    1. Delta Delta*

      I should clarify about having coffee with a manager – I was thinking of times that managers of mine (back in the Stone Age when I was early in college) either offered to pick up a cup of coffee for me because they were already going that way or we specifically met for coffee as a part of a meeting. I had a campus job with managers who specifically would meet student employees for coffee as a part of learning the skill of how to go out for coffee in a professional setting for future career networking, etc.

    2. Alanna of Trebond*

      This is the second letter in a few months about intern-supervisor relationships around “shared interests” (the other was someone who kept in touch with her former supervisor) and it’s starting to really ping my “something’s off here” radar. I manage college-aged interns. I talk to these kids at work daily over IM, we meet in person (pre-Covid) weekly, I usually take them out to lunch once or twice in a semester. I’m in my early 30s, my workplace is pretty casual, I’m a talkative extravert who actually likes getting to know my colleagues.

      What I’m building up to is… in four years with more than 10 interns, all of whom I had good, collegial working relationships with, I had maybe one or two actual conversations about “shared interests” that lasted longer than 15 seconds, and none of them led to any kind of long-term bonding. College kids, as a rule, don’t have that many hobbies, the hobbies they have tend to be things that other people do too (hiking, running, cooking, TV watching), and even if we did happen to discover we shared a niche interest, it would be good small talk fodder for the first couple minutes of a meeting, not something to aggressively bond over. Bonding is a choice, and one that a manager should avoid making, imo.

  33. Alex*

    The fact that this interaction is making you feel attractive is indicative that it is inappropriate.

    Your coworkers–ESPECIALLY ones with whom you hold the bigger share of the power dynamic (but really, all of them)–are not there to make you feel attractive. If you are using interactions with them to make you feel attractive, you are behaving inappropriately. It doesn’t matter if they are also “in” on the joke. It doesn’t matter if your husband doesn’t know or doesn’t mind. None of this is OK.

  34. Grammy*

    Seriously, check your state laws as well. In my state that 18 year old is NOT an adult yet.
    Have your mid life crisis if you must, but keep it out of the office.

    2. Remizidae*

      What state are you talking about? I agree OP’s behavior is terrible, but let’s not exaggerate. 18 is above the age of consent in all states. We’re not talking about child abuse here.

      1. Bostonian*

        I know in Nebraska, the age of consent is 19 years old. There are probably others. I could google it (and so could you, instead of getting huffy and disagreeing incorrectly).

          1. Clisby*

            Yes – the only “age of consent” I’m aware of is age when someone can legally consent to sex. It looks to me like most states set that at 16 (mine does). Age of majority is when you’re legally considered an adult (minus those few weird things like you can’t buy alcohol.) In my state that’s 18. My state finally got around to setting 16 as the minimum age for marriage.

        3. MassMatt*

          No, it isn’t, and no, there aren’t. Age of consent varies by state from 16 to 18. There are no states with an age above 18.

          Please stop with the false concern about age of consent laws, which in any case cover sex, not touching the arm or innuendo. The behavior in the letter is bad enough without this hyperbole.

          1. Courageous cat*

            Agree. Drives me nuts when people pull out sensationalized concepts like these to justify how bad something is – it’s plenty bad on its own accord.

      2. PJ*

        19 is the “age of majority” in Nebraska. All I really know about that is my kids needed notarized parental permission forms to go on out of state college field trips. And is this letter even for real??? Could someone really be so clueless? Yikes!

    3. Beth Jacobs*

      While sexual harassment is indeed illegal regardless of age, can you specify in which state flirting with an 18-yo is criminal because of the age? It doesn’t sound likely to me, no US state has the age of consent above 18.

    4. Amy Sly*

      WTF? An 18 year old can vote, sign binding contracts, get married, buy cigarettes, and even join the military but they aren’t an adult?

      He’s an adult. Yes, he’s a young adult with much still to learn and his brain hasn’t completed the myelination process that helps evaluate risks properly, but a “kid” can’t consent to contracts, sex, and dying for his country.

      None of which is to say that anything she’s doing is appropriate, of course. Just that he deserves to be respected as an adult.

      1. A Silver Spork*

        The US is raising the smoking age to 21 at the moment, just like the drinking age. I don’t know what the rationale is, but I suspect that the “18 is literally a kid” rhetoric is part of it. (Having another excuse to criminalize People of Color and poor folks is another, almost certainly. Kind of wonder if the trend toward legalizing weed is what kicked it off.)

        Which doesn’t change the fact that at 18, he’s an adult, not a child. His decision making may be questionable… but so is the LW’s (who’s flirting with her junior and dismissing the sexual harassment concerns) and she’s 40-something, so it’s not merely a factor of age.

      3. Batgirl*

        Honestly I think coming of age is a really vulnerable time for new adults; their only experience is of being a kid. What objection is he really supposed to have to this friendly, attractive fellow adult? He’d need the experience he’s currently being denied to even know.

    5. NerdyKris*

      I think you’re talking about the age of majority, which is different than the age of consent. There’s one state where it’s 19 instead of 18.

  35. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I don’t say this often, but I really and truly hope that this is a fake letter. I do not want to believe it’s real.

    1. Southern Academic*

      Yeah, it’s cringingly clueless. The question wasn’t, “Hey, reality check. I thought I was okay, but AITA?” The question was actually “How do I get Jane off my back?” which indicates a problematic level of obliviousness, like that one letter where the manager wanted to explain to her former employee that quitting to attend her graduation was unprofessional.

      Except this one is worse because of the power dynamics and harassment.

      Big yikes.

      1. Former Young Lady*

        Yeah, it’s so self-incriminating the only explanation I can think of is that the “Jane” in this situation wrote it “in character” as the OP based on her observations. But that’s some WILD speculation on my part, and it doesn’t really hold up to Occam’s Razor.

        Moreover, I’m used to seeing this sort of letter in other advice columns, where someone’s basically looking for permission to have that affair they really want to have. It’s not something I’d normally expect here, though…apart from the added element of an HR rep as the fox guarding the proverbial henhouse.

      2. Kate*

        And the person oblivious to sexual comments is in HR. That’s not a problematic, that’s catastrophic.

    2. Lexi Kate*

      Yes the OP is 40years old and in HR and has no clue this is bad behavior, I’m hoping no one is this off and this letter is fake.

    3. Pancake Friend*

      Maybe I’m just being willfully optimistic (since we all fear what the alternative is), but am I the only one who thinks that this is indeed fake?

      OP seems to perfectly cast herself as the villain in this letter, down to the oblivious tone and scapegoating of the third party. This better be a creative writing exercise on the OP’s part, because otherwise, Andre needs to run for the hills!

      1. Littorally*

        We’ve had way more delusional letters than this in the past. This feels pretty par for the course in terms of self-deceit and justification.

      2. WorkIsADarkComedy*

        LWs can indeed be delusional, but there have been letters here that I thought were fakes (the one denying the customary birthday day off 3 years out of 4 to the person born on February 29 comes to mind).

        I look not only at the level of seeming self-delusion, but also the details included in the post and their order. Both of these come into play with the mention of the husband not needing to know. It seems like a gratuitous point for an honestly delusional LW to include in her request for advice, but it’s sure AHA-bait for the rest of us. And it comes almost at the climax of the letter, with other salacious details not showing up until late.

        This seems like a fake to me.

        That being said, a number of advice columnists, including I believe Alison, don’t mind responding to fake letters when the response might be informative broadly.

        Whether a fake or real, this is a humdinger.

        1. RestroomTimeExtraordinaire*

          “LWs can indeed be delusional, but there have been letters here that I thought were fakes (the one denying the customary birthday day off 3 years out of 4 to the person born on February 29 comes to mind).”
          Same, but then we were blessed with a mind-blowing, double-down on the insanity update, weren’t we?

          The most scary parts about this LW if it isn’t fake, is that the writer lacks both self-awareness to recognize the warnings Allison gives AND seems prone to self-rationalization which would lead them to reject the advice as not applicable! “But I *only* asked about handling Jane!!!”

          Allison’s advice was A+++++ spot on.

        2. Do As I Say, Not As I Do*

          I agree with you. This included unnecessary details that a storyteller would not have included if they were trying to paint a picture of themselves as an innocent party.

          My guess is that the letter was actually submitted by the “Jane” in this story, to show to a clueless colleague in HR in her 40s who is behaving like this with an 18 year old.

      3. Second time I've read this story*

        This person wrote into another site I read about whether she should tell her husband, because flirting with Andre’s has made her feel more attractive and caused her to be more sexually active at home.

        Same ages, wording, printer cartridge joke. So, either she has been caught at work, or someone copied the story from the other website and emailed it to Alison with this new Jane character added, and the relationship guilt removed.

      1. Batgirl*

        But there isn’t going to be any double standard for OP. They will fire her! Jane is trying to warn her.

      2. SAS*

        I thought along the same lines although I thought it could be the letter writer gender-swapping themselves and the student (for “equality”) and likely getting a heck of a surprise at the response to how inappropriate the behaviour is as it stands. Yikes.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There’s plenty of adults who prey on the youth and try to spin it in a love-story kind of way. So my cynical ass believes this is real.

      Mary Kay Letourneau just died a couple days ago. Never forget the villains who have lived among us and still have supporters!

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Oh, I know. I am just so tired of hating everything that I don’t want this to be real.

    6. Granger*

      I wholeheartedly agree. It does, however, have that authentic giddiness that others have mentioned and it *feels* authentic despite being wildly outrageous.

    7. Code Monkey, the SQL*

      I don’t, but I find it sadly plausible. I hope the commentariat can serve as a reality check.

      OP has like, a dozen phrases out of the cheater’s handbook all ready to go, all about her ego, rather than reality:

      “It’s harmless”
      “What happens in private is private”
      “Feel prettier than I have in years”
      “Would never cheat [but here are a bunch of ways I’m edging toward doing it]”
      “It doesn’t concern my husband”
      “everyone does it – Jane just doesn’t understand how sophisticated I am”

      Etc.

    8. Anon 2.0: Now 50% Less Detectable*

      I truly hope this is a fake letter too, but situations like this do happen. Many, many years ago, I (male) was 17 and had been with my first legal employer for a year or two when a new HR rep (late 30’s woman, divorced with a ~8 YO child) transferred in. This was a type of work where the staff was largely a) young, b) male, and c) from tough backgrounds. At first, the new HR rep seemed friendly, going out of her way to give us (again, very young men without a good foundation in professional norms) individualized guidance, attention, and advice. Over time, things got incrementally more personal – taking us to one-on-one dinners, slowly introducing more “adult” topics, etc.

      The silver lining to a childhood of physical and occasional sexual abuse is that I was able to recognize grooming behavior from a few hundred miles away, and for me at least, this never progressed beyond a really uncomfortable dinner (hey, I was broke and hungry). Other than rumors, I don’t know how far things went with others in my position. I do know the HR rep didn’t last long at that particular location.

      Whether I or anyone else suffered professional consequences, I have no idea. Scheduling was always erratic, so it would be hard to say if my few weeks of unfavorable shifts after swerving her advances was related or not. Found a different job in a different industry and lost touch with my former coworkers, so your guess on fallout is as good as mine.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        I’m sorry this happened to you, but I’m so glad you shared your story here and called this what it is from a man’s point of view: grooming. There are a lot of people acting obtuse in this thread saying, “Oh, he’s legally an adult. He’s not a child. He’s grown.”

        No, he’s not. Yes, he is still very much a child mentally and emotionally – there is not much difference between a 17 year old “child” and an 18 year old “adult.” And I have a hunch these same people would not be making these arguments if the victim in question was an 18 year old girl. Society has done a huge disservice to men in glorifying male hypersexuality, especially teenage male hypersexuality, to the point where people now don’t believe that boys and men can be victims of sexual harassment and abuse because he’s a guy – they’re always horny. Sleeping around with everyone, no matter the age, is what they do!

        No. We need to stop this. Stop giving people passes for violating adolescents, and start defending and protecting male children from adults who mean them harm.

        1. Anon 2.0: Now 50% Less Detectable*

          I struggled with how or if to respond, not because I disagree but because you absolutely nailed what I was hoping to get across with my story. Thank you.

          Even though I’m a man that went through this (and other things that are so, so much worse than the story shared here), women are far more likely to bear the burden of these unbalanced “relationships” based on both personal observation as well as an understanding of broader power imbalances in society, so I hope my story isn’t used to invalidate that of anyone else going through this.

          A decade or two on, I’m now in a position of relative power with a multinational company in my industry. If nothing else, my past has taught me to recognize and head off to the degree I’m able this kind of predatory behavior among my (usually male) colleagues. Additionally, since I now have two sons, it’s my hope that I’m able to teach them to simultaneously have appropriate boundaries for themselves while recognizing and respecting those of others.

          Again, thanks for the reply, since it sums up my story better than I could hope to.

          1. Diahann Carroll*

            Hugs to you, for real. It sounds like, despite everything awful you’ve been through, you grew up to be a well-adjusted man who is raising other well-adjusted young men who will also go out into the world and raise other good people someday. I’ve seen too many damaged men over the years who were sexually traumatized as kids (as young as 13) who then turn around and traumatize others because of it – this cycle needs to be broken. Part of this is people need to stop promoting the idea that boys having sex early is okay and natural (it’s not, especially when it’s with older women who should know better) and that men are unfeeling beings who are largely driven by hormones and nothing else (also a lie and very harmful), so are not remotely capable of being taken advantage of by others.

      2. Hrodvitnir*

        I’m sorry you had those experiences. This stuff is so viscerally disturbing.

        Good to hear you’re doing well now! And while I never will have wished you to live through any of that, I’m glad you have the understanding and drive to teach your kids about this.

    9. Jupinel*

      This was actually posted in AITA or relationship_advice I believe – I did a double take when I read it. Not sure if it’s fake or of they sent here hoping for different results, but we were all appropriately horrified there too.

  36. annakarina1*

    I at first thought this was fun banter between co-workers who are close in age or on the same level, but I agree with Allison. Being in HR makes this inappropriate, as well as the big age difference and being this senior to him.

  37. Daffy Duck*

    This is so not OK.
    You are teaching Andre sexual innuendo and touching women at work is acceptable. It is not.

    1. miss_chevious*

      SO. Much. This! It honestly seems to me from the letter that Andre might also be flirting with the OP — the offering to pay, the arm holding, et cetera — but the appropriate response for a superior is to guide him into the right workplace norms. She should be teaching him that gifts flow from boss to employee, and that touching and sexual innuendos in the workplace are generally a bad idea, and instead she’s encouraging this behavior. He’s going to take this into his next workplace and get metaphorically swatted on the nose for it, if not worse.

    2. NoviceManagerGuy*

      Yes, I’m tremendously glad I never encountered somebody like the LW during my internships. It would not be serving me well in my 30s.

  38. The Grey Lady*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”

    OP, with all due respect, you’re kidding yourself. You’re in denial. It is relevant.

    Whether or not this affects your marriage is your business, but it’s definitely affecting your workplace and making everyone else extremely uncomfortable. You keep saying that you only interact with him when y’all are alone and that no one else knows. Let me assure you that EVERYONE knows.

    Also, even if he is the one initiating a lot of this, keep in mind that he is the young, vulnerable one. Is it possible that he thinks flirting with you will advance his career? What would you do if he found out he was using you? And, if the relationship goes south, what if he does claim sexual harassment against you? He would have a strong case.

    Acting like this with a coworker of any type would be inappropriate, but doing so with a young student employee crosses a line. Even if he is 18, there is still a very unequal power balance at work, and it doesn’t make you look good. I think you need to end this immediately before you wreck both of your careers.

    1. MCMonkeyBean*

      Yes, so much eyebrow raising stuff in this letter but that sentence was the most baffling to me. How can they honestly believe that isn’t relevant?

    2. Observer*

      Is it possible that he thinks flirting with you will advance his career

      That’s extremely likely, in my opinion. And the OP is giving him reason to believe that – even if that’s not the reason he’s engaging in this behavior.

      OP, people have mentioned how you are teaching him really, really bad office norms. This is just another REALLY terrible thing you are teaching him – That flirting with the boss is a good way to improve you chances at work. Just another layer of grossness and damage that you are doing.

        2. Observer*

          I’m not blaming him. Firstly, no matter what his motive is here, the OP is the one with ALL the power in this situation. And not only is she not shutting this down, she’s actively encouraging and participating in it. The Fault here it TOTALLY on the OP.

          What I was getting at is this: I would be surprised if he were going along with this simply to improve his career. But if he’s a bright young man, he is seeing that right now, having this relationship with the OP is going to be good for his career in the company. The OP is essentially teaching him that this kind of behavior is a valid tool for furthering his career. That’s a TERRIBLE thing she’s teaching him. Especially since what he’s not seeing is the damage this is doing to him. What he also is not seeing and really has no way to understand is how badly this could (probably would) go if he tried that anywhere else, and how quickly this could wreck any chance of a career in this company if people decide that he’s not really a serious worker, but just got where he is because he’s someone “pet”.

          In other words, she’s feeding him a notion of how to get ahead which is utterly toxic – in general and to him.

        3. Observer*

          I just wrote a longer reply, but I wanted to put the TLDR for those who don’t have patience for a new wall of text.

          I am NOT blaming the victim. I am saying that he may be naive enough to think he’s doing some good for his career. And the OP, with all of the power, knowledge and experience in the relationship is ABSOLUTELY taking advantage of his naivete! AND she is also teaching him a very bad and dangerous lesson in the process.

    3. AKchic*

      And since she is teaching him that sexual commentary is both okay and normal in the office, what happens when she fields a complaint about Andre sexually harassing another person? Will she consider that person a rival for his affections? Someone who doesn’t understand nuanced relationships and dismiss it? Will Andre get favorable treatment? Will he be treated coldly for dallying around?

      This is work, not Love Island. If she can’t check her pantsfeels at the door, she needs to at least make sure she has no professional ties to Andre whatsoever.

    4. Luna*

      The fact *that* OP has mentioned it proves that it is relevant. And it makes me hold onto the tiny hope that there is still a (small) part of her that *knows* this is wrong. Just that the bigger part of her refuses to admit that because it likely means dealing with many bigger problems, some that might have been ignored [for too long].

      Honestly, I don’t care how old the guy is. Flirting is not something that should occur at work. Regardless of positions, age, gender, etc.

  39. Southern Academic*

    oh dear god in heaven no

    Look, I teach college students, and I try to cultivate a comfortable relationship with them (I share about my hobbies, I ask about theirs, I go by a title but am unbothered if they use my first name). But by the time I got to “we’ve felt more comfortable with physical contact” all my alarm bells were ringing (“poking” (!!) a student???) and when I hit the sexual innuendo part of this, everything went code red.

    There are some things that are just inappropriate between students and supervisors and physical contact / sexual innuendo are way, way high up on that list. Just no, OP. Respect the fact that your colleagues’ shocked “policing” of your behavior is giving you important info about how you’re perceived, and back way the heck off.

    1. Anne Elliot*

      OP, whatever story you are telling yourself, you already know that you are acting inappropriately with Andre, and the reason I know that is this sentence: “Andre has never shown any discomfort when we share jokes like these, especially when he initiates them, and we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable.”

      The fact that you know you must avoid behaving like this in front of others means you already know you are not acting appropriately in the office. If this was all perfectly acceptable professional social chit-chat, it wouldn’t make others uncomfortable to witness or hear it.

      Most people would love to find someone new to add a bit of sparkle to their workdays. A lot of positive emotions can flow from that, which it turn can make a bad situation hard to see clearly. I get that. But OP, please hear this: This situation is not a red flag, it is a red flag factory. The red flags have become sentient and are crawling all over you and poor dumb Andre. Please, please, for your sake and his: Get a hold of yourself, move the scanner out of your office, and allow Andre to do his job with only minimal and strictly professional interactions from you going forward.

    2. Batgirl*

      Indeed. If OP does end up falling out with the HR field, I would also suggest she steer clear of education too.

  40. Catherine*

    And this is why many places have policies that any kind of non-work related interaction with interns, fellows, student workers is grounds for immediate termination.

    1. Former Young Lady*

      If the OP is truly an HR professional, I’m gonna have to assume the employee handbook at this place is just a verbatim transcription of the lyrics to Belle and Sebastian’s “Step Into My Office, Baby.”

    2. Sacrificial Pharmacy Tech*

      I was a student worker at my university, 19 years old when I started in my department. When I left, I made a joke to one of my friends that if I really wanted to, I could have gotten over half my department and at least a quarter of two other departments fired for sexual harassment (and in a couple cases, sexual assault) for the way they behaved towards me. Now that I’m older and have been in the working world longer, it doesn’t feel like a joke anymore.

  41. MassMatt*

    Wow. Based on the headline I thought this was an update on the letter from a while back where the LWs coworker really was being a busybody. Brushing up against one another in the hall? “Comfortable with physical contact” at work? No!

    This would be gross even if you two were married. This is work! I guarantee your coworkers are rolling their eyes and wondering WTH is wrong with you.

    Stop, and as Alison said do some serious soul searching about how you got so off-kilter. I think a key phrase is where you said this “makes you feel more attractive than I have in years”. Coworker interaction/flirtation should not be the way you feel attractive.

  42. Hey Karma, Over Here*

    He’s in this job to learn professional norms, how to work in an office, how to treat coworkers. OP is skewing his sense of normal and appropriate. OP, you are justifying this as something between the two of you. It is not. Andre is not either. He is learning that it is OK to make sexually charged comments to coworkers.
    I hope someone speaks to him about this. As in, “it’s not your fault, but things are out of hand. You both need to stop.”

  43. Emma*

    This whole letter reminded me of teachers who have sex with their students. Creepy as hell.

  44. Fancy Owl*

    OP, beyond how messed up it that you’re flirting with an 18-year-old (!!), you are doing Andre no favors by teaching him that that sort of flirting is professionally normal. It isn’t. If he left your workplace and came to mine, he’d be getting written up for sexual harassment for that legs comment before he could finish the sentence. And Allison is right, you really need to soul search over this. 18-year-olds might be legal in the eyes of the law, but they’re still children.

  45. Phony Genius*

    As I was reading this, I was ready for an entertaining answer and comment section. I was getting the popcorn ready and everything. Then Alison’s response reminded me that the writer is in HR. Suddenly, my mood changed, as that fact just sickened me.

    The fact that the details of this letter made a reader feel sick should be a good indication of just how wrong all of this is, especially when working in HR. By the way, some of his comments need to be addressed, too; it’s not OK for a student employee to make those kinds of comments. Normally, HR would help address this, but…

    (At least I hadn’t started the microwave, so I didn’t waste the popcorn.)

    1. The Grey Lady*

      I hate it when people say, “Well, they’re 18!” as a defense for doing something inappropriate with them. Just because the law arbitrarily picked 18 as the age of adulthood does not make them adults. They’re still teenagers, and they’re still vulnerable and immature.

  46. SunnySideUp*

    Wow.
    Wow wow wow wow.

    If I’d witnessed any of the interaction you took part in, I’d be going right to your manager to say that you’re creating a sexualized workplace WITH A STUDENT WORKER.

    You seriously don’t see anything wrong with any of this? Really truly?

    1. SunnySideUp*

      Also… perfect example of a woman initiating and normalizing (dare we say grooming?) sexual behavior towards a male — just as gross as a man doing so to a woman who’s his junior.

  47. Autistic Farm Girl*

    I don’t think I’ve ever been so uncomfortable reading a letter on this site before. This is so inappropriate that I’m not even sure where to start.

    Why would you want your colleagues to make you feel attractive?
    Why would you want to flirt with someone half your age whilst at work?
    Why is your answer about the husband comment “he doesn’t need to know”?! We all know that if he knew he’d be livid, and rightly so.

    What you are doing is cheating. It’s emotionally cheating and it’s vile. Jane is a million times correct and you’re so far out what’s acceptable in that situation that the boundary is probably on another continent.

  48. Blushingflower*

    I LOVE a flirtation that exists just for flirtation and has no intention of going anywhere. A little playful banter between consenting adults is one of my favorite things.

    But this:
    > Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.”

    was a super inappropriate interaction, and you’re not doing Andre any favors by letting him thing that was an appropriate thing to say at work. Jokes about rough sex have no business in the workplace, unless that workplace is a sex club. You’re behaving inappropriately and failing to teach Andre professional norms, which is usually part of why we hire student employees (to help them gain experience and learn about professional norms).

    1. Daffy Duck*

      She is starting the sexual talk also. This is just so bad on so many levels. Really, anyone working in HR should be fired for this. She will be lucky if she keeps her job.

  49. Akcipitrokulo*

    Wow. No. A world of no.

    Stop flirting.

    Stop interacting if you are able to.

    This is 100% not ok.

    Apart from anything else… you are teaching Andre that this behaviour is acceptable … and when he is your age and in a position of authority over an 18 year old?

    You’ve taught him it’s ok to harass his junior.

    No.

    Stop.

  50. Grasshopper*

    Holy shirtballs, OP, this is do, so wrong. Gross and unprofessional and unethical type of wrong. You are so out of line it’s terrifying! Please, stop. Stop for the sake of 18 year old kid you are using to get your self esteem boosted (!!!I mean, WHAT?!), for the sake of the marriage you appear to have disregarded, for the sake of your colleagues who have if witness this appalling display of inappropriate behavior – from their own HR person, no less (!!! I MEAN WHAAAAAAAAAT!!!), if not for the sake of the career you seem both wholly unsuited for and completely inadequate for.

    Just. Stop.

    Please.

  51. UbiCaritas*

    A student probably doesn’t have a great idea of what is work appropriate and what isn’t – it’s your job to teach those boundaries, which are there for very good reasons.

    1. The Grey Lady*

      Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. Even if Andre was doing all the initiating, OP has the burden of responsibility for shutting this down immediately.

  52. SQL Coder Cat*

    I was all set to read that the OP was just out of college and much younger than anyone else in the office, and that Jane just doesn’t understand how people their age interact. And then I found out the OP was in her 40s, and my jaw hit my desk.

    OP, this kind of behavior would be understandable from someone just starting their career and with no idea of office norms. You are in your 40s and in HR- you have to know what you’re doing is wrong. You need to do some serious thinking (perhaps with the help of a therapist) on why you are willing to throw away your professional reputation (and potentially your marriage, depending on how your husband would react if he knew) to flirt with a child half your age.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      That’s exactly what I was expecting, that the OP was fresh out of college in her first professional job. It would be more understandable if that were the case, as perhaps she was still learning professional norms. It still wouldn’t be ok, and would need to be addressed, but not as icky as a 40-something woman who should know better.

    2. JustKnope*

      Saaaaaame. I thought this was going to be two young people who didn’t know any better. The age gap here is stunning and appalling.

  53. PrettySticks*

    This is definitely one of those where as I was reading, my brain was saying, “No… um, no…. ew, no… noooooo… What? NoNoNoNo!”

  54. Bend & Snap*

    OMG yuck. If you were a dude you’d be the one the other women warn you about when you start a new job.

    Please stop it right now.

    1. Liane*

      It sounds like OP is going to become the one everyone warns all the new people about, regardless of anyone’s gender identity.
      “Whatever you do, don’t be work pals with this woman unless you want a bad professional reputation.”

  55. oranges*

    I thought the LW was any early 20-something employee. It’s an unprofessional power imbalance, but they’re roughly the same season of life and the attraction would have made sense. But 40-SOMETHING? What!? Hard no.

  56. Generic Name*

    Jane understands perfectly well what’s going on, and frankly, so do you, OP. I was ready to push for more understanding of your perspective if you were under 25, but you are in your 40s, and honestly, you know better. I’m in my 40s, and have a teenage son, and my friends have kids in college. If I were single, I would not see that age group as good for dating prospects. I’m not even going to comment on the fact that you are married, because even if you were single, this behavior would not be okay. And that type of talk at work between coworkers (even if both are single, both are the same age, no-one is in HR, and no one has power over the other- none of which is true here), is just not okay. It is sexual harassment (even if he seems to like it) and you need to stop.

    1. Fancy Owl*

      This is a good point, I think it’s worth pointing out explicitly that Andre is young enough to easily be OP’s child. Don’t flirt with children who could be your children! Yikes.

      1. feministbookworm*

        Setting aside the workplace context, which makes this behavior wildly inappropriate for people of any age, I think the age/life stage of the younger person is the issue more than the age gap between them. if OP was 65 and the guy was 30 and they weren’t coworkers but met at a bar and hit it off… then everyone’s old enough to make their own decisions, do whatever floats your boat. But the fact that this is happening in a workplace, and that the guy is 18, makes this super, super sketchy.

  57. Caliente*

    OMG OP you are BLINDED by some needs that you seem to have that you are filling totally inappropriately! You are using a “child” to fulfill some need that you have.
    As a mother let me tell you something – if my 18 year old son came home and told me this stuff was going on with some older woman at work, I’d be pissed enough to take action. In other words, I’d raise the roof. You sound like a deluded predator and I’m not trying to be mean.
    If you really think this is OK, you need to get some help STAT. In fact, just get some help before you find yourself in a world of trouble.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      I’m glad you said it because I was thinking the same thing. I would be up at that building immediately if I was Andre’s mother, and OP and I would have words. She would be out of a job by the time I was finished. This is disgusting behavior coming from an alleged adult.

    2. Observer*

      Yeah. I’m not someone who thinks it’s ok to get into my kids’ workplaces, even at 18. But that is for NORMAL situations, even when the boss is not being right. But this?! No, this is a place where a parent needs to step in. I would be raising the roof so fast, you wouldn’t know what hit you.

      1. Caliente*

        Yeah – I mean, no joke, I have been told I am one of the most relaxed person (people?) some folks have met. I have been the one that some folks (whether they be close friends, acquaintances or coworkers) want to talk something out with because I don’t judge and frankly, what you want to do with your own life is what you should do. I even have my tween son interact with his teachers himself, with guidance at this point, but its like lets help you learn to handle your own stuff.
        But this? This kid needs help.

      2. Sleepless*

        This. I commented above but it’s worth repeating. My kids are 20 and 17. I have never interfered with their workplaces, but if either of them told me a 40 something HR person was doing these things, they would get a visit from me, and I can be loud and scary. This would tell me that a. my adolescent child was totally in over their head and b. that the workplace was not handling it.

    3. AKchic*

      Agreed.
      My teens and adult children work. I field some… interesting questions from my adult children sometimes. If an HR person were to do this to my kid, I’d want to raise some serious noise.

    4. Quill*

      I went off hard enough on a twenty one year old asking my brother for his number when he was seventeen that I cannot imagine the nuclear levels of sororital rage I would be unleashing on OP if Andre was my brother.

  58. Postess with the Mostest*

    So your colleague told you this didn’t look right and your response was essentially “I don’t care”?

    Not a good look, OP. Just because something is not illegal doesn’t make it a moral or ethical thing to do. 18 year olds are looking to older adults for guidance and wisdom. Don’t be the person who insists the younger person is equally responsible. Be better than that.

  59. Jenny*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, :”

    Yikes. No no no no no. Shut it down before you lose your job and your marriage.

    1. Ailsa McNonagon*

      That line leapt out at me, and made me feel so sad. I’ve been a lonely wife in an emotionally unfulfilling marriage and I can understand how OP feels- but this is not going to end well… Someone down-thread suggested “restoring factory settings” and that’s good advice!

  60. CTT*

    OP, I really hope you take Alison’s advice and consider whether HR is the right job for you. Your coworkers are likely losing their confidence in whether they can trust you to take their concerns seriously.

  61. dddeee*

    i’m 26 and wouldn’t dream of flirting with an 18 year old. they just graduated high school! they’re children! this is gross.

  62. Just Me*

    Let’s just assume that the attention never becomes unwanted. There are still two big issues here. Sexual harassment can still happen if someone is exposed to a sexually charged environment even if that person is not actually a part of the conversation. The other is that it can contribute to a culture that someone who is being sexually harassed or is inclined to sexually harass others perceives to be condoning or tolerating sexual harassment. Jane has done OP a kindness by flagging it for her privately. She could have just as easily reported it further up the chain.

    1. LifeBeforeCorona*

      If Jane does kick it up the chain, the blame is going to fall on the OP because Andre is basically a kid in his first job. OP is supposed to be experienced enough to know better and therefore held to a higher standard. Also, because Andre is still just a kid, there is no way he is not telling his friends about the hot cougar at work who is into him.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Yes! I was thinking this exact same thing about Jane doing the OP a kindness. If this is real (and I’m still clinging to my adamant belief that it is not because that’s the only way my brain can process it), then OP needs to realize this.

    3. Jennifer Thneed*

      Thank you! This is what I was trying to compose in my brain. LW seems to think that the sexual harrassment could only come between the 2 people flirting, but it also affects any observers. So not only Jane ethically correct, she’s legally correct as well.

  63. Miss H*

    OP, this would be inappropriate at the office if it were two 18-year-olds in the student group playing this game.

    Jane has brought up to you that this is inappropriate. She said that “everyone else can feel the ‘sexual tension’ between us, and she said that people sometimes refer to us as ‘work spouses.'” Other people are talking about this, and it isn’t going to stop. She is the one who has been kind enough to warn you before you get a stern talking-to from the higher-ups or fired. You’re seeing her as a busybody, but if you act now and get out with your career intact, you should look back on her as the best friend you had at this office.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Yup. If other people are gossiping about this, it’s only a matter of time before OP is escorted from the premises with a box of her things.

      1. Eulerian*

        Yes. Not might be – will be. And then she’ll have to explain why she was fired to her husband.

    2. Ali G*

      I cannot fathom how the LW doesn’t understand that Jane was trying to help her. And if Jane is also in HR, this may have been her one chance to fix this before Jane has to escalate the situation.
      LW: you could lose your job over this. Apologize to Jane and Andre and fix this before it’s too late!

  64. Foreign Octopus*

    This letter did not go where I thought it was going to.

    I clicked on the link fully ready to support the OP, remembering that letter about the woman who was chastised for talking to her husband at work (or something similar), but then I started reading and…oh boy.

    This isn’t good, and I admire Jane for taking the bull by the horns and having what I imagine was a difficult and awkward conversation with OP, but now that she’s been told and is doubling down on her behaviour, Jane may feel the need to kick it up the chain as a warning.

    OP, there is no scenario where this ends well for you: professionally or personally. The best thing to do would be to restore your relationship with Andre to factory settings.

  65. LifeBeforeCorona*

    My first thought it was a couple of students flirting and a pearl-clutching older co-worker. But 18yrs old and 40 something? LW, you are old enough to know better. One person approached you because your friendly flirting is obvious and inappropriate. It’s possible that everyone is uncomfortable and she was delegated to speak to you, heed her words. Stop with the sexual banter with this kid because even though he is 18 he is still a kid developmentally and emotionally.

  66. AnotherAnon*

    Allison left out one other point – your aren’t social distancing if you keep touching each other!!!

  67. Rexish*

    Nope. I mean, I love innuendo jokes and wouldn’t bat an eye in my personal life if someone told these jokes. Actually I might make those joke myself. It is not something you do at work, especially with that power dynamic.

    I was expecting this to be a 22 yo hr admin flirting with the student. Age should not be a factor but in this case it is and being married does not help.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m about the LW’s age, and I have made those jokes in my personal life – well away from work, at a hobby I share with my husband. And even then, there are limits – I’m joking with the people who are within about a decade of my own age. I don’t make them with the guy old enough to be my dad, or the guy young enough to be, if not my son, then at least my nephew.

      When I’m at work, I keep my mouth shut and pretend I don’t know such jokes even exist.

  68. ENFP in Texas*

    “Jane also asked if my husband knows about Andre, but my husband doesn’t need to know about Andre since I’ve never cheated on him and never would.”

    Whoa. Talk about another huge red flag. If you are doing something and you’re not comfortable sharing that fact with your spouse, WHAT YOU’RE DOING IS WRONG, no matter how you rationalize it to yourself.

    If the roles were reversed and your husband was flirting with an 18 year old female student intern, I doubt you’d have the same reaction.

  70. (Former) HR Expat*

    OP, I don’t want to pile on with what others have said, but I do want to put a different spin on things.

    We (HR) are different than other employees. Not that we get or deserve special treatment, but there are different expectations for us from the companies where we work. If you weren’t in HR, this would still be inappropriate for many reasons mentioned before me. However, the bar is higher for us. If, on a scale of 1 to 10, we expect employee behavior to be a 5, then the expectation for HR behavior is that we are at LEAST a 7. We have to model good behavior, which includes not making sexual comments toward another employee (even jokingly or when reciprocated).

    That doesn’t mean we can’t have fun and joke with people, but our jokes need to be something that you would tell a 4-year old. As in, interrupting cow knock knock jokes. If that bothers you or you think that’s unfair, I would strongly encourage you to look at whether HR is the right field for you.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I can’t resist the urge to share my favorite work appropriate joke.

      A drum set falls off a cliff. Ba-dum tssh!

      OK, now that that’s out of my system. I agree 100%. There’s a line between friendly and friends, just like the line between friends and flirting, and they are all thin but still need to be walked pretty carefully. If that kind of social management is too hard, HR is not the right career path.

      2. Southern Academic*

        This drum joke is hilarious and I will save it to tell to students, right alongside my elephant jokes.

        “Ever seen an elephant in a cherry tree?

        Hide pretty well, don’t they?”

          1. Southern Academic*

            OH THERE’S MORE.

            “You know why elephants have flat feet?

            It’s from jumping out of cherry trees.”

            “You know what Tarzan said when he saw the elephants coming over the hill?

            Here come the elephants!”

            “Now, what did Tarzan say when he saw the elephants coming over the hill, only this time, they were wearing sunglasses?

            He didn’t say anything, he didn’t recognize them!”

            2. Gumby*

              Ah, I see you have “101 Elephant Jokes” – a book I loved when I was in elementary school and was dismayed to find was a much poorer experience when I tried to re-read it again as an adult.

      4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

        My old boss had a book of Dad Jokes he used to bust out at Orientation. Or staff meetings. Or in emails to staff!

      5. AKchic*

        I will break out the pirate jokes. Don’t make me do it.

        What’s a pirate’s favorite kind of sock? Arrrr-gyle

        What’s a pirate’s favorite vegetable? Arrrr-tichoke

        What’s a pirate’s favorite letter? You’d think it’d be R, but ’tis the C!

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Favourite work appropriate joke:

      What’s Whitney Houston’s favourite kind of coordination?

      (top of your voice) HAND EYE.

      1. Code Monkey, the SQL*

        Mine is:

        Hey, you know how when you see geese flying in a ‘V’, there’s always one leg of the ‘V’ that’s longer than the other?

        You wanna know why that is?

        Because there’s more geese in that line.

        2. Miss Climpson*

          I heard that one from an elderly monk who had been a high school math teacher! I was definitely expecting a reason that had to do with math or science!

      2. Emeileia*

        I have these kind of jokes for my students! (Elementary)
        What do you call cheese that isn’t yours?
        Nacho Cheese!

        How much does a pirate charge for ear piercing?
        A buck an ear.

        What’s a pirate’s favorite letter of the alphabet?
        You’d think it would be R, but his first love is the C.

      3. Amber Rose*

        I love this, I’m going to use it as soon as I can. <3

        I also really like, "Two fish are in a tank. One turns to the other and says, you man the guns and I'll drive."

    3. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      All of this. Even having friends at work can be dicey if you aren’t careful. I qualify EVERY PIECE OF ADVICE I GIVE when asked because it is so easy to turn into “But HR said …” And that’s just advice.

      1. (Former) HR Expat*

        Yes! I personally won’t have friends at work, unless they’re in the HR department. I won’t accept social media requests outside of LinkedIn for anyone I work with, even in HR. Our field is filled with land mines, and employees will always think of you as “the HR person.”

  71. Catabodua*

    Daaammmmnnn! I thought this was going to go in a totally different direction.

    Go tell Jane that you appreciate her opening your eyes and THANK her. Then get yourself back to reality.

  72. PurpleSheep*

    There’s a good chance that Andre is leaving work and regaling his friends with stories of what-I’ve-done-at-work-today.
    Imagine if he’s tweeting about the comments, or posting them on Instagram or other social media!
    He’s 18, that means he’s immature by definition. Think what could happen if he acts his age.

    1. Ginger*

      This was my first thought as well. Andre very well could be laughing at OP hard behind her back as in “hey friends, look at this cougar I’m taming at work” type of thing. He puts that on social media and boom, OP’s name is the next headline of fired employees for preying on students.

      OP – these relationships never end well. Jane did a tremendous kindness to talk to you, don’t lose the chance to turn the ship around. Move the scanner out of your office, stop touching Andre (!!!) and get therapy.

      An 18 yr old flirting with you at work shouldn’t make you feel better than you’ve felt in years. And if you can’t share word-for-word what you guys say to each other to your husband, let alone the touching, then you have your answer on that front.

      Final note – EVERYONE KNOWS. Once one person heard an inappropriate comment, now everyone is eavesdropping on your interactions with Andre.

        1. Batgirl*

          I suppose it is a stretch to describe this as a relationship. According to the reddit version OP is just hoping to use the fantasy in bed with her husband. It might be more accurate to say using a teen coworker as a stand in for Pornhub is not a career move that ends well.

        2. AKchic*

          RARELY do these relationships end well… and pointing out one politician’s marriage isn’t going to erase the damage done to countless other individuals.

  73. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

    Oh no, you have crossed WAY over the line into the land of inappropriateness. And you should really know better. You’ve been (presumably based on your age) working in a professional environment for 20+ years and most importantly, you WORK in HR! He’s a kid and is probably following your lead. You need to put an end to this NOW. Jane is doing you a favor by letting you know how others perceive you. If you don’t want to tank your job and possibly your career, it needs to stop immediately.

    1. Batgirl*

      Yeah I’m honestly impressed by Jane’s courage here. It was probably not an easy thing to raise.

      1. allathian*

        I agree. This unprofessional behavior really needs to stop. Jane could claim sexual harassment even if she isn’t directly involved. She’s still exposed to a sexualized working environment. The OP needs to be fired and someone else needs to show Andre that OP’s behavior is inappropriate at work.

  74. Buttons*

    It is shocking to me that this person is in HR. If you need to write to Alison to ask about this situation when you are in an HR position, you need to change careers or get some training. Everything about this situation is wrong. He is an intern while you are an employee, he is barely legally an adult, you are in a position of power over him. Any one of those things should be enough to know better, but to add all of those in to the situation. Seriously, lady, you need to get some training in HR. I recommend SHRM.

  75. Crivens!*

    I can’t think of a kind way to say “what the heck is WRONG with you?!” so….what the heck is WRONG with you?!

    1. anonymous 5*

      that is, to be fair, a MUCH kinder phrasing than the one that went through my head…

  76. Tangerina Warbleworth*

    Hi OP. You say that these conversations are private. How do you know that? Doesn’t it strike you as at least a possibility that an 18-year-old might be bragging to his friends all about the lady at work he’s totally got wrapped around his finger? He’s exhibited incredibly bad judgment already (“only if they ask for it”, hello rape culture). Why would you expect him to be honest? ALL of the “he’s using you” alarms are going off in my head right now. I’m sure he’ll make you feel attractive and sexy and all kinds of other things until he gets a better job with your reference — and then he’s gone.

    If you don’t feel attractive and sexy with your husband, go get counseling; but do NOT let this kid use you anymore.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      “only if they ask for it”, hello rape culture

      I did not take that wildly inappropriate comment as promoting rape culture. Rough sex between consenting individuals is not rape. That being said, he had no business saying it at work.

      1. Daffy Duck*

        She started the sex talk in the example. I’m not sure I would say he is using her, I think she is using him to add some (extremely inappropriate) excitement to her life. I would definitely expect he is talking to his friends about her.
        Sex talk is not appropriate at work.

    2. Moose*

      Agreed to your first point–and the conversations already aren’t private. One coworker has already overheard and approached OP about it. Imagine how many others have overheard but felt too uncomfortable to say something!

      However, while you might not be wrong about the 18-year-old bragging . . . it seems far more likely the OP is using him, rather than the other way around. The power is imbalanced way, way in her favor. She’s much older; he’s a student employee/intern, and she is a full-time employee with some authority over his position. He’s the one who might not be able to report if he’s uncomfortable–because she is *literally HR*–and whose job, references, etc. could be harmed by the OP. He is a teenager, and she should know better.

  77. Batgirl*

    Firstly, I thought OP was someone being blamed for normal interactions while being female which as we all know = flirting. But no…she’s full on, no holds barred, explicitly sexual flirting.
    Secondly I assumed OP must be early 20s and still not quite sure of the line between college friend banter and co-worker banter.
    But no. In her forties. Married. Works in HR?! Considers the interactions with a new student and teenaged employee to be ‘private?’
    Also..is completely and fully aware that the whole point is not friendliness or bantz.. but is happening in order to make her feel more attractive.
    OP, for the love of sanity, pull up out of the nose dive now.
    Maybe you’ve only ever worked in just the one horribly inappropriate workplace full of sexual banter (the only benefit of the doubt explanation I can muster) …but it’s never too late to do better.

  78. AvonLady Barksdale*

    Must add something else here. I am a senior level employee and struck up a friendship with a junior employee who does not report to me. We have similar interests. We like to tell weird jokes. He’s 26, I’m 42. Before I came along, he was the office loner and never talked to anyone. He chats with me often.

    But he doesn’t brush against me in the hallway, he doesn’t hold my arm, he doesn’t buy me coffee, he doesn’t make sexual jokes, and not only does my partner know about him, they sometimes send recommendations and messages to each other through me.

    My relationship is not inappropriate. LW, if you can’t see the differences, you have a lot of work to do.

    1. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Which also means that probably someday, you’ll walk into his office and he’ll be there chatting with his new love before they go out for lunch, and he’ll give you a huge smile and say, “Hi, AvonLady! This is great, you get to meet Chris!” You know, like normal professionals.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      That is a really good way to think about this. I was 25 and became good friends with an older employee who was in their 50s. We had similar interests and chatted over lunches in the break room often. He gave me really good advice both about how to hold it together after the with the end of my engagement at work when I kept breaking into tears. Nothing inappropriate ever happened, nor would it have. This is a strong work friendship. What is happening here is not.

    3. DarnTheMan*

      +100 – my first ever work friendship was with a guy who was probably about 55 when I was 23. We were friendly, especially because we shared a lot of personal interests but most of our conversations revolved around work stuff and I eventually grew to view him as something of a mentor (he was aces as helping me, who’d sort of fallen into the job I was doing at the time, figure out what I really wanted to do with my life.)

  79. In Yo Biz*

    I AM SO GROSSED OUT READING THIS. LW, just think about how this would feel if YOU were 18 – a female – in your first job, and your 40 something male boss was acting this way. Not only are you teaching HIM that this kind of unprofessional behavior is ok at work, you are showing by example to your teammates and staff that this is ok. AND you’re in HR, where you should be so completely buttoned up. Also, you shouldn’t have let your student worker pay for you, or even touch you. You should also SHUT DOWN any inappropriate remarks, not RESPOND IN KIND TO THEM. I can’t stop writing in caps, BECAUSE HOW DO YOU NOT SEE THIS? Please, please, reevaluate. I would also recommend requesting the student worker no longer works with you.

    1. Batgirl*

      This actually did happen to me as a teen intern with a 50-something boss, and I was so visibly squicked out that the person concerned gave me a lecture about it being just joking and I would understand adult office humour one day. Then in a rare instance of quick justice, they were fired, The End.
      I think girls are a lot more wary (we have to be) and this is just a really sorry example of making a clueless boy so much more clueless than he was to start off with.

  80. tylena*

    this can’t be real this can’t be real this can’t be real dear god this CAN’T be REAL

  81. Pumpkin215*

    Can you imagine if the genders were reversed here? (NOT that what is going on is in any way ok). The conversation would probably take a turn regarding “predator” and “grooming”. Seriously OP, if you are reading the comments stop trying to convince yourself that this is mild or harmless. You have the ability to end this and I strongly suggest that you start immediately.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      I already went there above because that’s exactly what this is – predatory, grooming behavior regardless of OP’s gender.

    3. Pumpkin215*

      Oh I agree with both of you. Unfortunately, we just seem to hear those terms more with the genders flipped vs Mrs. Robinson.

  82. HR Bee*

    It’s taken me a few minutes to pick up my jaw from the floor here, OP. Honestly, the judgment is so wildly off that as an HR Manager myself, I would be seriously contemplating whether you should remain employed. This isn’t a stern talking to and move on. This is termination worthy. Every single part of this is wrong and for you to be in HR just raises it to an entire new level.

    I know some HR professionals disagree with me, but I adhere to the philosophy of not having friends at work. You HAVE to know the line between being friendly and being friends (obviously, this instance is a bright red line into harassment, but the point stands). Otherwise, no one can trust you. What if your friend is doing something that needs reported? Are people going to feel comfortable coming to you to report it? That answer will 99% of the time be a resounding no. IT IS NOT WORTH IT. You have to have that layer of trust and you’ve beyond lost it with Andre.

    Please, please that the advice you have gotten from Alison and the comments and take it seriously. You need to majorly change your behavior, apologize to Andre and Jane, and determine whether you should remain in your role.

  83. IndustriousLabRat*

    Now that I’ve picked my jaw up off the floor and pulled my eyebrows back out from under my hat…

    The only one who should be throwing down for some coffee right now is YOU; OP. And not for the student worker who ‘makes you feel attractive’, but to JANE who deserves a sincere apology for making her watch you being gross, and an enormous thanks for being the one who jolted you out of your potentially career- and marriage- ending spiral of delusion, even if you initially took her words as nosey and came to AAM for validation of the bizarre narrative you’ve built around this.

    Break if off now. Set boundaries. Become the epitome of reserved, dignified professionalism. Quite frankly you may also want to start looking at other jobs, because if it’s bad enough that a colleague actually braved the very real personal discomfort of broaching the subject with you, I can guarantee that everyone else is also fully goggling at the spectacle! Jane is a REAL work friend, letting you kindly know that you are out of line. But your reputation there may already be toast.

    And I seriously think this is a situation in which a therapist will be able to help you with the rest of it.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Jane told OP that others in the office have noticed OP and Andre’s sexual chemistry (ew!) and they’ve begun referring to them as work spouses, so that cat is already out of the bag. OP has already damaged her professional reputation with her peers and she’s threatening to do the same to Andre. It’s gross.

    2. JJ*

      The coffee date, yiiiikes! How are professional norms not so ingrained in her at this point that she didn’t automatically pull away when he took her by the HAND and then HELD HER ARM FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD!!! I don’t think I’ve ever touched hands with a coworker outside of a handshake EVER. Like, just don’t touch your colleagues maybe?!

  84. Amber Rose*

    OP, this has nothing to do with your age and everything to do with professionally acceptable behavior. You’re supposed to be modeling that for Andre as the more experienced worker, not devolving to meet his immaturity.

    And I say this as someone who works at a place where this behavior and worse is the norm. It’s not fun, it’s not comfortable, it sucks.

  85. tinybutfierce*

    Andre is an eighteen year old student employee presumably there to learn workplace norms. He isn’t there to do anything in order to make you feel attractive and the fact that that has come into play in your workplace relationship so much is a HUGE red flag. He is a student employee. You are more than twice his age and in HR. I guarantee you more people know about your behavior than you think. You need to course correct HARD immediately, move the scanner from your office, reset your boundaries and relationship with Andre, and seriously do some reflecting on why you think this is in any way okay.

    If absolutely nothing else, know that continuing this has the enormously likely chance to tank not only your own professional reputation, but the relationship your workplace has with whatever school Andre and his fellow students come from.

  86. SMH*

    This may have been covered but I want you to consider how you would respond if another employee filed sexual harassment charges against Andre. If they used similar examples to the ones you provided but they didn’t respond positively and they are not happy about those comments are you going to be willing/able to address these comments with Andre? Are you going to have just as stern of a conversation with him that you would with someone else? What if he escalates and goes to your boss or someone else and states “I’ve been having these types of conversations with HR for months. If HR is OK with it then it must be OK and I shouldn’t be punished.”
    Andre may be 18 but he is still learning to navigate the world and you should try to be a good mentor so he can go out in the world and be successful. He may be learning habits that could set him back for years. If you care about him you need to tell him you were wrong and your relationship has to change and these comments/actions are not appropriate.

    2. Clisby*

      Excellent point, and I hadn’t even thought of that. OP is basically giving Andre the green light to behave inappropriately with anyone in the current workplace.

    3. Observer*

      The thing that worries me is that the OP will NOT do anything of the sort. Remember, she’s calling highly sexual behavior (brushing up against each other!) “more nuanced social interactions” that “ can be harmless and common in office settings“. That’s her justification for her wildly wrong behavior.

      So when someone comes to her with a complaint, I suspect that she’s going to take that tack with other victims and “explain” to them how this is “just flirting” and they need to be “nuanced” and learn to deal with “common” officce behavior.

      Honestly, if I were her boss and knew about it, I’d be working on her exit package – sooner rather than later and preferably without any severance. I MIGHT not fight unemployment, simply because I would want there to be as little record of this grossness as possible.

  87. RetailRat*

    I have a friend at work that I have a similar but extremely platonic relationship with. We have a large age difference, I’m over twice his age, and get on really well. We get a lot of stcik from people about cradle snatching and granny grabbing but we’re not worried as we don’t have any attraction to each other. You can’t say that.

    You need to step back, you’re married, you’re in HR and you are doing yourself so much professional damage you might not recover if it goes south. I’ve known my mate for years and even though we’re both single, we do not and never will do anything to compromise our working relationship. You do not have any of the luxuries I have in your situation and you will only hurt yourself and the people you love.

  88. ap*

    reading progression
    Raised eyebrows @ “He offered to pay” Giant eyeballs when I went back and confirmed I had read she is HR
    Wtf head tilt @ “brushing against in the hallway”
    EXPLODING BRAIN at “40 something”

    I had nothing left to give when I got to the part where she said a concerned co-worker didn’t understand nuanced communication.

    1. jamberoo*

      hee hee I enjoyed the progression I saw in my mind of your mind as I read your reactions. Sincerely, exploded brain also

      1. Accounting Otaku*

        Going in I was hoping this was someone who was also new to the workplace, and it was all misunderstood. Then I read “40-something”, and this needs to stop yesterday. This is a recipe for disaster. OP needs to stop.

        2. ap*

          I thought OP was maybe 23, 25 for the beginning portion. I’m just about to have a 40 something birthday, and I’ve got 6 nieces/nephews in the college age range, and I’m screaming at the idea they could encounter this in an office

  89. Philly Redhead*

    “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings”

    So much nope.

      1. Observer*

        Yeah, really. It’s not the worst thing in the letter. But in a way it’s just SOO jaw dropping.

        OP, what exactly would it take for you to characterize behavior as NOT nuanced? Do you really need it to be full on all over each other?

        1. Talia*

          Having sex on the desk as far as I can tell. Anything less than that apparently doesn’t count (/s)

  90. Perfectly Particular*

    So gross! When I was a co-op, (20-21 years old), The company that I worked with had about 90 coops at any given time and we had a co-op specific chat forum for casual chat, making lunch plans, etc. One day the boys (young men really) got to talking about Hummers (the cars). There was a tiny bit of innuendo, but mostly legit car talk. HR shut down our forum for the rest of the semester because they felt it was inappropriate. That’s how HR should be responding – not sparking the inappropriateness!

  91. Coder von Frankenstein*

    Me reading the headline: “Ha ha, man, people will interpret anything as sexual. Let’s see how absurd this one is.”

    “I’m part of the HR department… student panel… he’s only 18.”

    Well, yeah, okay. You do need to be extra super careful in that situation. Even so, I bet this is all…

    “When I told Andre about it, he suggested we go there for break.”

    Hmm, this seems unwise.

    “Since then, we’ve felt more comfortable making physical contact, but it’s been nothing inappropriate. It’s usually just a poke or bump on the shoulder or brushing up against each other in the hall.”

    Er, no, hold on a minute. This is not normal coworker interaction.

    “Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, ‘Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.’ He had replied, ‘Only if they ask for it.'”

    Excuse me, I have to call the fire department. My eyebrows are stuck up a tree.

    “She has also heard Andre tell me on a separate occasion, ‘If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.'”

    WHOA! You’re in HR! He’s a student worker! You’re supposed to be teaching him how this stuff works! Comments like this are straight out of the “what not to do” section of a sexual harassment video! Just overhearing this stuff could end up in hostile work environment territory, never mind what happens when he does it to someone other than you. This has to stop.

    “Jane also asked if my husband knows about Andre, but my husband doesn’t need to know about Andre since I’ve never cheated on him and never would. Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings…”

    Oh, just… just no. If you even have to ask whether your husband “needs to know,” you know how far over the line this has gone. When Andre makes a serious move on you–which he will, come on, you know he will, he went way past mild office flirtation a long time ago–how do you think that’s going to turn out? Can you imagine any way that scenario goes well?

    Normally I would give the side-eye to this line of reasoning and say the primary responsibility is on Andre, as the initiator, to keep things within appropriate boundaries. But he’s an 18-year-old kid with no professional experience. He doesn’t know what boundaries are appropriate. You’re in your 40s and you work in HR, for Pete’s sake! It’s your job to tell him, and to back that up by modeling good boundaries yourself.

  92. PartialToPort*

    Oh. Dear.

    If Andre, who is so, so, so young, is genuinely clueless and is learning from LW that sexually charged flirting is any kind of normal workplace banter, she is leading him down a catastrophic path — and some other woman (or women) is going to get caught up in the inevitable train wreck. And on the off chance that Andre is a manipulative twerp who tries flirting with older women to get things he wants, LW is teaching him that it works.

    LW, you are genuinely endangering Andre’s future — and blowing up your own credibility as well.

    Something is seriously interfering with your judgment here, LW — you’re in HR, I’m SURE you know better than this.

  93. Lalitah28*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant. ”

    If it’s not relevant, then why did you mention it?

    OP, you might be using this situation to make you feel better about yourself. Yes, that’s human thing to do but this is not the place to deal with that and Andre is not the means to deal with that.

    And that fact that you’re writing in to tell us how wrong Jane is speaks volumes about how you’ve not reflected on her comments to see if there was a grain of truth and value.

  94. Keymaster of Gozer*

    Let me give a kinda similar experience I had way back:

    I was 20, in my very first job after university and the 40 something head of the lab started off by being nice and joking. Then we got into jokes, shared interests, then exchanging the kind of filthy jokes and flirting that I’d encountered all the way through uni. Harmless?

    Until my direct boss pulled me aside and told me to be wary. Said head of lab was going through a rough patch in his marriage and others in the lab were starting to wonder, based on our actions, if I was the cause. I got told what was cool in the lab (rude jokes up to a point, foul language actually ok) and what wasn’t (flirting with married people twice your age).

    So I stopped. I toned down the flirting. I learnt that my inexperience in the workplace had nearly caused a major issue. We all continued okay eventually but I spent a good number of days PANICKED at home because I thought I was going to lose my first job and kill my career.

    (Btw for detail, I was a 20 yr old female and the head of lab was a 40 something male)

    TL:dr: OP should modify THEIR behaviour before someone comes down like a sack of bricks on this youngster. If you really like them, save them this pain.

    1. Keymaster of Gozer*

      P.s. I’m 40-something now and I still feel cringe when I remember this. Off to have a shower.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          Very unlikely. I left about a year later and I haven’t kept in touch with anyone who remained either. He might have had maybe one of the other managers make some joking comments asking him how I was ‘in bed’ but I didn’t personally see or hear anything like a reprimand to him.

          Then again, I was a 20 year old naive person and now I’m a 40 something on a load of psychiatric meds so my memory might not have retained it!

          1. Kate*

            Sounds like the typical “it’s all that other woman’s fault, the actually married 40something is absolutely innocent of anything”…

        2. andy*

          The higher up the hierarchy you are, the less likely are people to call you out or criticize you. It is against contemporary professional norms to talk to managers and people high up in hierarchy. Plus, they can easily retaliate and even if they are not retaliating, it is better for you if they like you. People dont like those who tell them they do something wrong.

      2. Observer*

        Good grief! It’s a good thing that someone gave you a heads up. But blaming YOU for this? That’s beyond gross!

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          They told me to dress better too, ‘show less curves’, ‘don’t wear v necks’. Usual stuff.

          I just want to get across to the OP that this kind of behaviour can seriously mess up the younger, naive, person you’re doing it to, EVEN if they appear totally into it.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      FFS.

      They spoke to YOU and not the creepy harassing head?

      Not your fault. His.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Yep, all the fault of the seductive young woman in the lab, I.e. me. I still blame myself to an extent, I’d escaped from an abusive relationship about 6 months prior and in a way I did want to latch onto a ‘protector’ figure.

        (I know it’s not logical. And I’m lucky to have a husband now who understands my scars. But my god was I messed up)

    3. Batgirl*

      You have no need to cringe. It stinks that you were made to feel responsible for some old creep and speaks really well of you that you were able to extrapolate the lesson that you needed from such a garbage fire anyway.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Ha! My work history does honestly read like the school of hard knocks, complete with my own mess ups (believe me, I’ve made some right howlers) but overall the scars have taught me valuable lessons.

        (Mostly to not trust anyone…)

  95. Krakatoa*

    Flirting is a big deal, even if you’d never cheat, and the fact that you haven’t told your husband isn’t just a minor oversight on your part, it’s an intentional act. I thought like you when I started dating my wife, and it caused a huge argument between us. It took some serious self-reflection to realize how it really did look if you flirt with someone else while you’re supposed to be in a committed relationship. It’s not OK.

  96. MissDisplaced*

    Oh dear! Yes those are all definitely all boundary crossing words and gestures OP. You need to stop it at once.
    And you are in HR? You should know better, honestly. And I question why you don’t.

  97. Jacki Peters*

    OP – Holy Shiitake Mushrooms !!!!

    STOP, STOP, STOP my recommendation is resign, walk away and do some soul searching BEFORE you this goes higher up the food chain, you get fired and this is reflected on any references, because I suspect that there is likely no recovering your reputation at this workplace.

    You are so far out of bounds in this scenario it’s comical

  98. Adrienne Oliver*

    OP, when I started reading I thought that you were barely older than the intern and just didn’t know better. My jowls dropped when I got to the bottom of your email. That behavior is bad enough in the beginning of your career but at the stage where you are could very well get you fired and deservedly so.

  99. Jennifer Strange*

    “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings”

    OP, I work at a theatre that has two married couples on staff and previously had a dating couple employed there. We also have a rotating group of interns who sometimes will hook up, not to mention creative teams, actors, and musicians which sometimes include couples. I also previously interned at another theatre company which included a married couple on its staff and two of my fellow interns ended up becoming a couple. At no point in ANY of my work experience have I witnessed flirting in the workplace. Because whatever relationship might exist outside of the office has no business being brought in during work hours. So even if you and Andre were a couple, and even if your being romantically involved wouldn’t have so many moral issues tied to it, flirting would still be inappropriate here.

    “Is there a tactful way I can explain to her that she shouldn’t try to police her coworkers’ social interactions, especially if they’re not meant to be public?”

    But you have made them public. You and Andre are doing this AT work, around your co-workers. To be clear, it would be wrong even if you were doing this in private, but you can’t get made at her for noticing something you’re doing right in front of her.

  100. HR Jeanne*

    Please stop these behaviors. What you are forgetting is that you are in a position of power over this person. He may be exceedingly uncomfortable, but can’t push back on anything because you are his boss. Even if he isn’t, you are in Human Resources. Please know better and do better.

  101. Erinwithans*

    Leaving aside that this is absolutely appalling and absolutely opening up your company for a sexual harassment complaint, it’s also doing Andre a deep disservice to make him think this kind of thing is ok at work. He’s going to go get a not-student job and quickly end up in front of HR at any functional company.

  102. Sara without an H*

    I work in higher education. In the last couple of years, there have been several widely-publicized national scandals in which very prominent scholars (not all of them male) damaged or ended their careers by hitting on their own graduate students. They, too, defended their actions as “consensual flirtation.”

    When the power imbalance is great enough, there’s really no such thing as “consent.”

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Yes, and Monica Lewinsky as well. Ten years ago, she was still saying that the “affair” with Clinton was consensual – it’s only in the last five years or so that she has started to realize how effed up it really was.

      Interns cannot consent to sexual relationships with non-peers in their workplace. They just can’t. I don’t care how much it looks like they’re participating, how much it looks like they’re having fun – the power imbalance makes it impossible for this to be an equal relationship. And in most cases, their emotional immaturity means that they probably don’t have a good understanding of the risk they’re taking, or the potential consequences.

  103. Anonymous at a University*

    OP, it sounds you know very well that this is flirting and that it’s weird and could easily cause all sorts of problems, but you’re looking for a blessing to continue it anyway. Why? I think that’s the question you need to answer second most urgently after whether you’re in the right field at all. Why is it so important to you to continue trading sexually-charged jokes with and brushing up against an 18-year-old?

    I’m university faculty and have seen students and professors interact in a way that made me highly uncomfortable, especially when the students were underage and the faculty wanted to talk about how “hot” they were. It blew up Every. Single. Time. It cost some of my colleagues their jobs and cost students their emotional well-being if nothing else. Stop this.

  104. JJ*

    THIS POOR KID!! You are setting him up to get super-fired at his first real job when he behaves like this there. Move the scanner out of your office and assign him to someone else immediately, geeeeeeeeez.

    1. jamberoo*

      Yes! I remember my first job at 18 (one epoch ago): I was a sponge desperate to internalize what was appropriate in a job setting. OP, you have injured your charge’s future success trajectory.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He’s also being groomed to get himself into much deeper trouble here than just fired. This will get you tared, feathered and blacklisted at some places. It’s not just like “I was fired for being late a few too many times” it was “I was fired for sexual harassment.”

  105. Observer*

    We thought we were alone, >snip< and we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable.

    also

    <She said that she saw us on that outing, and she confessed that she overheard a short conversation we had while Andre was replacing toner. Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.” She has also heard Andre tell me on a separate occasion, “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.”

    As for “more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings”

    That’s pretty iffy to start with. When it’s in a work setting, one of the parties is new(ish) to the work world and learning the ropes, there is a MAJOR power disparity and the person with power is old enough to be the parent of the other party. . . . No, NO, NOOOO. This is a blow up waiting to happen.

    It’s true that your private life is not anyone’s business, but the reality is that she’s not policing random social interactions. The fact that your behavior was MEANT to be private does not mean that she’s not allowed to react with concern to the behavior that she is seeing and hearing.

    Stop and read this back to yourself. You say that you never do this in front of anyone, and you thought you were alone. Yet Jane saw / heard THREE (!) problematic interactions!

    There is absolutely no question about it – your judgement is totally compromised. Why you thought no one would see or hear is questionable to start with. But when you respond to INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE THAT SOMEONE DID SEE / HEAR YOU with a claim that “no one heard us”, that’s evidence of willful blindness.

    1. Observer*

      Something weird happened here and I seem to have scrambled my post. Here is a do over:

      We thought we were alone, >snip< and we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable.

      also

      <She said that she saw us on that outing, and she confessed that she overheard a short conversation we had while Andre was replacing toner. Andre was jamming the cartridge in aggressively, so I said, “Damn, I hope you don’t treat your dates like that.” He had replied, “Only if they ask for it.” She has also heard Andre tell me on a separate occasion, “If only I could get a girl with legs like yours, I’d be in business.”

      Stop and read this back to yourself. You say that you never do this in front of anyone, and you thought you were alone. Yet Jane saw / heard THREE (!) problematic interactions!

      There is absolutely no question about it – your judgement is totally compromised. The idea that no one would see or hear is questionable to start with. But when you respond to INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE THAT SOMEONE DID SEE / HEAR YOU with a claim that “no one heard us”, that’s evidence of willful blindness.

      As for “more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings”

      That’s pretty iffy to start with. When it’s in a work setting, one of the parties is new(ish) to the work world and learning the ropes, there is a MAJOR power disparity and the person with power is old enough to be the parent of the other party. . . . No, NO, NOOOO. This is a blow up waiting to happen. And that’s the BEST case scenario. In reality, it’s a flat out abuse of power.

      It’s true that your private life is not anyone’s business, but the reality is that she’s not policing random social interactions. The fact that your behavior was MEANT to be private does not mean that she’s not allowed to react with concern to the behavior that she is seeing and hearing.

  106. jamberoo*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”

    It absolutely is relevant. It influences your choice to continue this behavior that is deeply unprofessional, inappropriate, and concerning on myriad levels, both personal and professional.

    You’re in HR! Do you not understand that nothing in the workplace can be considered private, or at the very least, very much within the bounds of what the company is allowed to know about???

  107. Nonprofiteer*

    OP, you should also consider that as managers of student employees, we are also giving them their first/early professional experience. This is an incredible disservice to Andre.

  108. CoffeeCoffeeCoffee*

    This is depressing on another level-Andre is 18 and this is probably one of his first (if not first) office jobs; which means he could go on to another workplace, make sexually-charged jokes and flirt with coworkers without realizing how wrong it is because his first supervisor made it seem fine.

    1. Rebecca!*

      In so many cases, Dan Savage’s campsite rule for dating younger people applies to student workers and interns: Leave them in a better condition than when you found them, and don’t burden them with baggage they’ll take to future partners(or employers). She’s doing such a disservice to this young man, which is probably the opposite of what this student worker program is supposed to accomplish!

  109. Square Root of Minus One*

    If Jane actually used the word “unbecoming”, I hereby dub her the world champion of euphemism.

  110. Once 18*

    OP: You are a PREDATOR. Please, if you have a shred of decency in you, stop now. Your selfish thinking is going to harm that boy for the rest of his life. His personal and professional relationships will be tainted forever. I am not exaggerating. This path will cause lifelong problems for him. Please stop now. Get professional help. Please stop.

  111. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    You need to go back and be retrained in HR procedures. This is outrageously out of touch with what they teach us at even the most basic HR seminars. Stop putting your employer at risk, stop putting this man at risk, stop putting yourself at risk.

  112. That Girl from Quinn's House*

    At no point should you be having any sort of flirtatious interaction with anyone who is with you in a student capacity. Even if that student is an adult learner and the same age as or older than you! The fact that he is younger, makes this extra unacceptable. Full stop, this cannot go on and you should be terminated.

  113. Hills to Die on*

    OP, I hope you are concerned by the chorus of comments by this point. Enough so that you take action right away and put the brakes on this thing with Andre. This community of posters won’t hesitate to call it as they see it, but they are also pretty caring and supportive and I hope you see the concern for you in the comments as well. I am worried for you myself.
    Please come back and give us an update. I hope this has a positive outcome for you and for Andre.

  114. Seal*

    Having supervised student employees for many years, I can safely say that the OP’s interactions with Andre are wildly inappropriate and need to stop immediately. The kid is 18 years old and this may well be his first job, so he may well not know the norms for how to behave in an office setting. Part of working with student employees is to teach them how to work and the OP is failing miserably. If other people are seeing this and commenting, it WILL go up the chain and ultimately will not end well for either party. Ugh all around.

  115. Foreign Manager*

    I’m new here in this blog (which I’m LOVING, btw) and I just had to comment because…. yikes!
    Not only is OP deep in denial about her very inappropriate behaviour, she is also clearly in denial about some serious marital problems. I highly doubt her husband would take this situation lightly if he knew, and it would be much worse for him to hear about it from others. I could feel the sexual tension from here, and I’m just a reader! OP should cut all ties with Andre immediately and do some serious soul searching before going foward. This is not appropriate at all.

    2. Hills to Die on*

      Welcome! there is so much good stuff in here. If you want to read some shock value posts, check out the ‘worst
      boss of the year’ each December and the ‘most commented on’ / ‘most read’ posts for the year, also in December.
      These people are awesome. Lord knows we don’t always agree, but they really do have such good judgement and are so caring and supportive. Alison is pretty awesome too! :)

      1. Delta Delta*

        Also the “coworker quit in cod” post is necessary reading because it’s a) something we all aspire to at some point in our lives and b) frequently mentioned.

  116. Slinky*

    OP, I want to echo everything Alison said. I also work in higher ed and sometimes have student employees. Your letter made me extremely uncomfortable. You should not be making innuendo-laden jokes with students. You should not be holding hands with students. You should not let students buy you coffee. You shouldn’t be using interactions with a student to make you feel more attractive(!). It doesn’t matter if you think Andre won’t report this. Honestly, if I saw a colleague behaving this way, I would report it.

    It is okay to have friendly interactions with students. Chatting about hobbies or even grabbing a coffee (if you pay for theirs or each pay separately) is fine. This crosses so many lines. Please take Alison’s words to heart. This is not a case of Jane sticking her nose in where it doesn’t belong. Jane is 100% right and this needs to stop now.

  117. YB*

    You know, Alison’s comments about how an HR professional should know better got me to thinking: I have a professional certification in HR, and at no point in the education/training for that did anyone tell me, “Don’t flirt with teenage staff – it’s the wrong thing to do and will reflect poorly on you as an employee and specifically as an HR professional.” I’m thinking the reason no one ever told me that is because most people don’t *need* to be told that.

    Which is to say, the part of this letter that disturbs me is the disconnect between the LW’s breach of social norms and the LW’s certainty that she knows social norms better than her coworker and that it’s the coworker who’s out of line. I would agree with Alison that she needs to do some soul-searching.

  118. Three Flowers*

    Wow. I was 100% ready for this to be another of those articles where some coworker believes male and female coworkers can’t be friends. Then I got to the leaving the park bit and was ready for it to be “here’s how you deal with an employee who has a crush on you”.

    This is…holy crap. With an 18-year-old? And at the very barest and most generous minimum, OP is modeling atrocious workplace behavior to someone who is probably in his first office job. And by “generous” I mean “a grossly negligent assessment of the situation”. OP should not be surprised if they get busted back to sorting mail alone (an honorable task, but they probably wouldn’t think so).

  119. Georgina Fredricka*

    I need to read through some of these comments but wowwiee. I knew something was off as soon as I read about how you’re now more comfortable with “bumping into” or brushing against each other in the hallways… if you need to hear it from someone, it’s not a normal, logical leap from “he helped me get up from a chair once” to “and now we poke each other.”
    This was written in a strange way as if OF COURSE one leads to the other and silly Jane for not realizing!
    (also, we’re not pre-COVID!)

    It seems bizarre to me that someone in HR thinks that the standard of “is it harassment” is, “only if the person vocally tells me to stop.”

    1. Coder von Frankenstein*

      “It’s not a normal, logical leap from ‘he helped me get up from a chair once’ to ‘and now we poke each other.'”

      This made me burst out laughing.

  120. Shrunken Hippo*

    As someone who went to lunch with the head of HR when I was a student worker to talk about what classes would help me and how best to tailor my resume to different roles, I was ready to defend OP when I first started reading.

    However, holy inappropriate interactions! This is a teenager in their first office job, you should be treating them extra professionally, though kindly, so they leave you understanding workplace norms. You are doing the student a great disservice by letting him think that flirting is okay in the workplace and highly damaging your reputation. Also this kind of behaviour could easily endanger your job as it shows a lack of judgment on a massive scale. This is not okay and you need to stop it now. Also as a baseline act in the office like everyone can see you and hear everything you say, including your husband. If you’re not comfortable with that then you need to address why and really dig deep. Therapy might be a good move as well so you can have a professional help you identify why the relationship turned flirty and why you’re not feeling that same way around your husband.

  121. Jaybeetee*

    I was another one reading this and thinking LW must have been in her early 20s or something (and with that in mind, definitely raising my eyebrows about being “helped” off the bench). Then she says she’s in her 40s??

    Yes, I’ll bet this feels great and invigorating and all tbat. But they’re at *work*. If he was 23 and someone she knew outside of work and had some flirty badinage going on, that might be different. But he’s 18, they’re at work, ME knows this isn’t okay. She’s trying to play it off like a flirty colleague friendship, but the touching, that whole thing with the bench (that strikes me as *blatantly* flirty), her defensiveness about it, and even acknowledging how attractive she feels. She knows what this is. She doesn’t want to give it up. But he’s 18, and this is*work*.

    1. Ms.Vader*

      Like why are they needing guidance when walking down the street? Like who needs to hold you by the elbow? That’s weird. That’s what happens ON DATES not coffee breaks with a colleague.

      1. Talia*

        I have had a co-worker hold my arm when walking once. There were medical reasons (on his part) and he was very careful to ask me to hold my arm out from my body while he took hold so there was no risk of him accidentally touching anywhere other than my forearm over clothing. I can think of no other possible circumstance in which someone holding a co-worker’s arm could possibly be appropriate in a work context.

  122. SciFiEmma*

    Oh my. You know you’re causing #metoo? I do hope you can disentangle yourself harmlessly and gracefully.

  123. Curiouser and Curiouser*

    I wanted to give OP the benefit of the doubt badly, and for most of the letter, I was like “well, you should stop, but it’s possible you don’t really understand what you’re doing.”

    But then I got to “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”

    You know this is flirting. You know this is a relationship that goes beyond workplace friendship. If you didn’t, you wouldn’t admit that he makes you feel more attractive than you have in years. Work friends don’t make you feel attractive because…how could they? You need to shut this down. And possibly talk to someone, because your boundaries right now suggest this is only going to happen again.

    1. Ominous Adversary*

      Even before you got to that point in the letter, the OP is in HR. If she doesn’t understand that flirting, touching, and initiating sexual innuendo with a student employee is problematic, then she should be fired because she’s completely incompetent.

  124. Matilda Jefferies*

    Oh my gosh, OP. You need to stop.

    I get that he’s young and cute and he makes you feel attractive, and I’m going to guess that your marriage isn’t super happy right now. Obviously you should not be cheating on your husband (*please do not cheat on your husband!), but if you are going to cheat on your husband (seriously, please don’t), I’m sure there are dozens of other men who would be more appropriate. Men who are your age, who don’t work in your office, and who know what they’re getting into when they start making sexually charged jokes with a married woman.

    Cheating is messy and ugly and will be incredibly hurtful to your husband if he finds out. I know you said you’re not planning on cheating, and I believe you. But in case something happens that you didn’t plan, you should at least be thoughtful of the impact on the person you’re flirting cheating with. There are plenty of adults your own age who are capable of making their own risk assessments. Go find one of them if you must, but Ben Braddock here is off limits.

    1. Batgirl*

      I agree the situation is the worst choice of affair possible but… most affairs don’t really work that way! This is one of the saddest parts of the whole letter; OP is just sleepwalking into it. Sure, there are Ashley Madison types out there who are deliberately seeking something but OP’s situation is the garden variety, first affair that blows up in everyone’s faces. You don’t even need to have an unhappy marriage (that would actually make you more awake and aware), you just need 1) someone clueless enough to flirt with you day in, day out somewhere where you both have to be a lot, 2) A propensity to be secretive and ‘private’ when you want something and 3) Enough of an unfounded belief in your own personal strength/strength of the marriage that you ignore warning signs 1 and 2 and the actual skills that make up that strength.
      That’s what’s so sad; a misjudged affair in the workplace is bad enough for anyone’s professional and personal life but no HR professional is going to come back from such blind, wilful ignorance.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Oh, I know – this whole thing is such a mess! I guess I’m hoping OP will pause and inject at least a little bit of thought into what she’s doing. If she’s going to implode her marriage and her career, that’s on her – but at the very least, she should avoid dragging Andre into it. The implosion seems inevitable, but it doesn’t have to be with this guy specifically, you know?

        Although I have to admit, with my (thankfully limited!) experience of watching people’s marriages destroyed by affairs, they do tend to happen just like this – with a piling on of one awful thing after another. She’s not just cheating, she’s cheating with an 18-year-old. She’s not just cheating with an 18-year-old, she’s cheating with an 18-year-old from her office. He’s not just from her office, but someone over whom she has a certain amount of control due to her role in HR. Etc. It’s like there’s something in people that makes them say “Okay, I’m not just going to end my marriage, but I’m going to CARPET BOMB THE CRAP OUT OF IT!!!!!!”

  125. boop the first*

    Listen, I’ve worked in a job where we had a months-long trend of aggressively slapping each other on the ass and even I thought this was too intense to defend.

    1. ElizaHam*

      Seriously, though! Even having worked in restaurants and other “interesting” fields this is wild. It’s one thing between co-workers but with HR…what?! It’s baffling.

    2. B**** in the corner of the poster*

      yep, served in Peace Corps, which was just one incestuous bunch…and we’re all cringing over this

  126. Ms.Vader*

    What stood out to me is the insistence that these were “private” interactions. Why are you having private interactions with a student worker you don’t appear to be managing as you expressly call him a colleague. There is so much wrong with this and I’m embarrassed as a woman.

  127. ElizaHam*

    HOLY MOLY OP. NO STOP NOW. I really, really, REALLY hope this gives you a better perspective. If my HR department couldn’t see how ridiculously inappropriate with I would lose all faith in that department.

  128. Emi.*

    “Nobody’s complaining.”

    Actually, Jane is “complaining” that you are making not just her but also “everyone else” feel uncomfortable and grossed out by your relentless sexualization of their workplace. Stop it.

  129. voluptuousfire*

    I can understand the OP’s giddiness about the banter between her and Andre. It’s a heady feeling, that notion of a good flirtation because it’s so rare to have someone to click with like that. Having said that, the OP need to shake her head to clear it, step back and look at the bigger picture.

    That heady feeling of flirtation is what can make people do really stupid, really irresponsible things. You need to recalibrate your working relationship with Andre NOW and knock off the flirting.

    1. Emma Bear*

      That’s exactly right. When you’re in that headspace you completely lose perspective – in my early twenties I dated a coworker and it was VERY obvious to everyone at the time (and me in retrospect) that it was affecting my work in a negative way, but if you asked me at the time I would have said that everyone as being irrational or didn’t have the whole story or any number of excuses.

      It does seem like the OP is at the point where she can adjust her behavior for the better. I can’t say if there’s been irrevocable damage to her reputation but she CAN change going forward – hopefully for Andre’s sake!

  133. Malarkey01*

    My husband and I met at work, and were in our mid to late 20s, and I’ll admit flirted a lot initially, so I was expecting something along the lines of that’s not great, will affect how people view you, but also maybe people overreacting a little….. this is not that letter. Holy cow, do not flirt with people who still get carded at R rated movies, also don’t walk in parks arm in arm with people, and eww gross don’t make sex jokes with kids in or just out of high school.

  134. Laura*

    I’m 43 and volunteered extensively with teens in the past. I’ve had the “oh sh!t” moment in my early 20s when I said something to a teen better said to a friend (usually using a four letter word or laughing at a nsfw joke) but what the OP is doing is way beyond that and
    OP, you could be his mother. One of your friends probably has a son his age or a classmate you are Facebook friends has a child. Imagine them telling you this story and Andre was their child.

  135. GrumpyGnome*

    OP, if I were one of your coworkers and saw how you, HR, interacted with an 18 year student worker as you’ve described in the letter, I would never be able to trust you in your position again. I would not come to you with a single question or concern and if you were the only person in HR, I would be looking to leave the company as quickly as possible.

    As many others have pointed out, you’re doing Andre a huge disservice – at 18, our brains are still developing and we’re still basically a chemical stew of hormones. You don’t have this as an excuse at 40-something. You’re teaching someone probably new to an office job all the ways NOT to behave at work, and he’s got at least another 50 years to go before retirement. You’re inflicting half a century’s worth of damage on a single person with your emotional affair.

    Please, please shut this down. Move the scanner. apologize to him for your behavior, thank Jane for her candor, and consider looking for a new job. And whatever is going on in your marriage that makes you feel undesirable needs to be addressed, but not by flirting with an 18 year old coworker.

  136. So VERY anon*

    OP, as someone who has made a few boneheaded decisions in my life, believe me — you sound about two steps from a full-blown affair and career suicide. Stop the flirtation now. Move the scanner out of your office; stop having lunch with Andre and do not spend time alone with him. I’m not saying you can never be alone with a colleague of the opposite sex. In *this* case, you’ve proven it’s a Very Bad Idea.

  137. CAS*

    OP: Newsflash — you’re already having an affair. Please show your husband the respect of the soul-searching Alison described.

  138. Midwest Academic*

    The worst part of this is that the OP works in HR. I really hope (as Alison said) that she works on the benefits side of things, because she has most definitely tanked her credibility if she is on the legal side of things. As an employee, I would not feel comfortable coming to her with an issue of sexual harassment, because it is clear that her views on the subject are completely out of whack.

  139. This Entire Thing Is Inappropriate*

    If you are a 40 something year old married woman, it is 300% never ever ok for you to be flirting with and making sexual innuendos with an 18 year old jr staff member where you work. The age difference and power dynamics at play are actually disgusting and predicate on grooming. If you the only way you can think of to feel sexy and rejuvenated is by creating a sexual harassment issue with a student at work, you need therapy and a new job.

    1. j,*

      OP, if you’re in your 40s as you say, you are actively encouraging sexual tension between yourself and somebody who could very easily be your child (age wise). This is incredibly creepy.

      You are also teaching an 18 year old student that this behavior is ok. You’re teaching him that he can pay for your office coffee (sure colleagues can pay for each other’s coffee sometimes but this is not one of those times). You’re teaching a student worker that engaging in sexually inappropriate behavior is the norm in the office. If you like Andre, is this the lesson you want him to be learning?

  141. Ailsa McNonagon*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”
    This is probably the crux of the whole matter, and it couldn’t BE more relevant! Reading this line made me feel really sad for the OP, she’s clearly unhappy and not in place where she can admit that to herself…

    …which would be fine, if it wasn’t rippling outward and affecting other people; not just Andre, but her work colleagues too- even her husband, if he only knew it. It sounds like one of those awful situations where you don’t want to look, you know it’s only going to end in disaster and yet you can’t tear your eyes away…

    OP, you are damaging your credibility at work. You are potentially damaging the future prospects of someone less than half your age. You are making your colleagues uncomfortable. You are damaging your marriage (even if you don’t think you are, you”ll be unconsciously comparing your husband to your flirtation and finding him lacking). The best thing you can do is back right off- put the scanner in your office somewhere else, somewhere public; don’t accept any coffee date invites; explain to Andre that you haven’t been giving him a good example of professional norms and from now on you’re going to behave more appropriately; and most importantly find someone you can trust to talk to about why you feel so unhappy and unloved that heavy-handed flirting with an 18 year old is the first thing that’s made you feel alive in years- something is wrong more generally for this to have landed so hard with you, and you need a kind listener to help unravel the tangle you’re in.

    Good luck!

    1. An American(ish) Werewolf in London*

      This is a lovely and kind comment, and assuming the OP is for real, I hope she reads this before any of the other comments.

      My Lady, you are clearly unhappy and lacking affection and confidence. Your husband may well be inattentive at best. But this isn’t Andre’s concern and and it shouldn’t be happening at work with a student worker.

      I feel for you – I’ve been in an unhappy marriage. But Andre (or any junior colleague when you’re in HR, for crying out loud) is not the answer.

      I hope you find a better answer, and soon. But in the meantime, stop what you’re doing with Andre.

  142. SassyAccountant*

    I just want to give some “marriage advice.” Even if this CHILD was much closer to you in age this still is full on inappropriate because you don’t seem to realize that if he makes you feel attractive and you get some kick out of the “casual” flirting as you are calling it, you are cheating. It’s called emotional cheating and it’s a very real thing. You don’t have to be kissing or having sex for this to be a real marriage problem. You need to think about that as well.

  143. calonkat*

    OP if you’re actually reading this far into the comments (and good for you if you are, I hope you’re actually receptive), please consider if you can be effective in this position in the future. If you’re reading this far, and cannot believing we are not supporting you, please ask yourself these questions:
    Would you be comfortable with your boss reading this letter?
    With it being published in the company newsletter as appropriate advice from HR for interactions within the company?
    With your husband reading it?
    With the young man’s mother reading it?

  144. Christmas*

    It’s rare to see such an astounding lack of self-awareness in the letters posted here. It’s happened, but pretty rare.

    Line by line, the OP details ways in which they blow past the lines of professionalism and propriety, but then follows up each example with their justification why it’s totally cool. It has taken a large amount of denial and self-talk for them to reach this point.

    2. Elbereth*

      One would hope. But it doesn’t seem that much out of line with things I’ve seen and experienced over the years.

  146. What the What*

    I’m trying to imagine if I sat my husband down and said, “Let me just tell you about a friendship I have with our new intern, Jimmy. “Jane” thinks I’m crossing some kind of line, but I think it’s all totally fine and normal.” And then I just described everything in this letter.

    My husband would be like, “WTF. Stop sexually harassing your intern. What is wrong with you?”

  147. Anon for Today*

    Regular commenter here. Will not be using my normal comment name for obvious reasons.
    OP, I did the same thing as you, but with the genders reversed. I was working in a seasonal job with student employees (I wasn’t HR or management but that didn’t matter) and took a shine to a 19-year-old young woman. She asked me a lot of questions about work, and we gradually got more and more comfortable with each other until the flirting turned pretty obvious. (I want to say that I did not initiate the flirting, but I did nothing to shut it down, and I stupidly talked myself into thinking that if she wanted to flirt with me it would be fine to play along. It was just me justifying how good it felt for a pretty young woman to be treating me as desirable.)
    At some point she asked me for a work favor and, instead of saying “You know I can’t say no to you” (I know in retrospect how gross this was, and I can’t say enough how sorry I am) like usual, I said, “You’re just asking me for favors because I have a thing for you.”
    When I said something explicit about it, things became uncomfortable for her. I wasn’t asked to leave the job, but my bosses lost respect for me, and so did many of my friends and coworkers. That was years ago and I still look back on it with regret. It limited my upward mobility, not just because I became “The guy who had a crush on Jane” but because I showed such terrible judgment.
    OP, stop right now. I know it feels good to feel attractive, but trust me that it’s not going to stay that way. I wish you the best.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Thank you for your story.

      I know that a lot of these people engaging in these acts won’t listen, think you’re exaggerating, that you did something “even worse” than what you’re admitting to, etc. But no, this happens.

      That’s why I’m scared for the young man in this situation. He’s impressionable AF at 18 and as a student worker. He can end up like you in the end because sooner than later, the roles will be reversed and he’ll be like “well that one time at that summer intern job, Julie and I really it it off…and she was in HR!” No.

      1. Anon for Today*

        I appreciate it.

        And yes, Andre is having terrible office norms modeled for him. I certainly hope that he gets good advice on this before his student work ends.

    4. Anon, Esq.*

      I had a similar situation with a professor in college, except I was the 19 year old woman and he was the 40-something. Likewise, I was flattered by the flirting (he was an attractive guy! I was used to getting rejected by 20 year olds and this smart, older man was into me!) until I got spooked by a more overt move. Not even that overt–we caught each other leaving the mostly-empty campus one night, we were walking the same way to our cars, and he seemed to get close and give me that look that men give you when they’re about to kiss you, so I panicked and turned away. I still can’t really be sure that it wasn’t in my head.

      Looking back, I don’t feel especially traumatized, but it’s another word of warning to OP that this sort of thing can feel fun and light until it isn’t anymore, and she should not assume that even if the 18 y/o is currently into it, that he always will be or that it won’t hit a point where it freaks him out and he (rightfully) turns on her. There is no best-case scenario for this a year from now if it keeps up. And that’s in addition to the major issues of screwing up his professional norms, ignoring the power imbalance, ruining her marriage and credibility at work, crossing major ethical boundaries as an HR person, etc., etc.

      Thanks for sharing your story; I have a feeling it’s a lot more common that most people would think or admit. It sounds like you’ve learned from it and have some healthy distance.

      1. Anon for Today*

        Yeah, I think you did a better job of distilling down the lesson than I did – it feels exciting and edgy until it doesn’t, and you don’t know when it won’t.

        If André, or my “Jane,” or you as a student had come to me to ask for advice, I would also tell them to stop. But it’s so important for the person on the powerful end of the spectrum to understand that what’s fun and sexy shifts situationally and things can change. It’s a thrilling game to play, but you’re so right about there being no best case scenarios.

        I certainly have learned from my experience. I lost a very close friend over it (not metaphorically speaking about Jane, but a friend of mine who I talked to during it who didn’t realize how serious my feelings had gotten) and, as I said, it harmed my long-term advancement in a seasonal job I enjoyed. It’s changed my professional trajectory, not necessarily for the worse, but there are people I know I can’t count on as references because they’ve seen me make such poor choices.

        It showed me something I didn’t know was inside me and I am actively working to be a better person in ways I would not have before. I of course haven’t spoken to “Jane” since then, nor have I checked in on her through our shared contacts, but I hope she’s doing well.

        At the risk of too much information, her younger sister came through a separate seasonal job I worked at and my heart was in my throat the entire time even though we essentially had no contact. (Our areas just didn’t overlap.) It was a pretty stark reminder knowing she was there every day that I have to be on my best professional behavior all the time.

  148. LilPinkSock*

    LW, let me tell you a story: at my first professional job, there were two people engaging in pretty similar behavior. Everyone noticed, and many of us became so uncomfortable that work was impacted. Eventually the innuendos escalated and some really gross stuff was said in full hearing of a pretty large group…including HR. An investigation was quickly conducted (for the sake of a paper trail), the full-time employee was terminated, and the intern was summarily dismissed. It’s likely that the ex-intern received a “Fail” on their transcript, and of course came away with some really horrible ideas of appropriate workplace norms.

    Don’t be these people.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I mean, would you? When the consensus is this strong, it’s only the least self-aware LWs who try to make counter arguments.

      I really hope she takes it as a Eureka moment and hops out of the bath, maybe to think about any professional experiences she has had in the past that mean this situation didn’t flag up as problematic until Jane explicitly labeled it as such. Perhaps she spent a significant period of her career at an employer where severe harassment was just part of the daily landscape, and this looks like friendly courtesy by comparison.

    2. Batgirl*

      Well, she’s got two options: 1) Dig deeper into denial or 2) Review a whole chunk of recent history through clearer lenses. She’s going to need time and space for either one.

  150. Robin Ellacott*

    I too came in thinking this would be a busybody of judgemental colleague who sees anything women do as flirting. Boy, was I wrong.

    OP I am your age and please, please hear us all telling you that this is WILDLY inappropriate and was genuinely shocking to read. If you’re having workplace interactions with a ribald tone that only seems ok with you because you think you are alone and not overheard, you are having inappropriate workplace interactions.

    You’re also setting this young man up for a terrible misunderstanding of office norms, which is horribly unfair to an intern. (Quite apart from the other ways this is unfair to him).

  151. Colonel_Gateway*

    OP. Are you really using an 18-year-old student worker to attempt to get what you aren’t feeling from your spouse? That’s what this feels like, and that is troubling on _so_ many levels. I can only hope you read all of the comments here and make some important decisions about your future.
    And for the sake of all that’s right in the world, leave the kid alone.

  152. Elizabeth West*

    There were 500+ comments before I even got here and all I can say is even if the OP and Andre were peers, there is no workplace in the universe in which it would be okay.

    Furthermore, if I were married and I found out my husband were doing this at work, I would be EXTREMELY upset. Not only would I feel betrayed to know he’s regularly engaging in sexualized banter with another person behind my back, but due to the appalling lack of judgment, it would make me seriously question whether I wanted to stay married to him.

  153. HR-ing from home*

    As an HR professional, this letter is so completely offensive. I can’t even wrap my head around all of the issues here. Just wow. I really hope that this is fake email. I don’t want to believe that any reasonable adult, much less one in HR, could even contemplate this being ok.

  154. MistOrMister*

    You lost me with the part about brushing up against each other in the halls.#1) everybody and their brother can see you. #2) who the heck is brushing up against people at work?!? I have walked into people before because I have a bad habit of cutting corners closely. (Pretty sure no one I’ve run into/almost mowed down has thought I was flirting or behaving inappropriately. Ditto for anyone who has witnessed the carnage.) I have, to the best of my knowledge, not once ever brushed up against someone in the hallway unless it was crowded and I was trying to squeeze through. Anything else is completely inappropriate. And, you are at work. There is zero expectation of privacy at work. My mind boggles.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      Right – in no workplace have I ever been where this is common and accepted behavior, and I’ve worked in some pretty effed up environments.

    2. Delta Delta*

      I once tried so hard NOT to brush against someone that I reversed course too quickly and fell down in the middle of the hallway. My valiant attempt at being professional ended up with me lying on my back in the hallway, howling in laughter because, really would it have been so bad if I said, “excuse me, Fergus, I’m going to slip behind you.” And then if I inadvertently touched Fergus, he would have known it was because I was trying to squeeze by. Instead it became “that time Delta fell down.”

      1. MistOrMister*

        I just snorted in laughter! While toppling over to avoid the hallway brushing is maybe not super graceful, at least Fergus couldn’t complain that you encroached on his space. Hahahaha!

    3. Laura*

      I can imagine bumping shoulders with a friend when we passed each other in the hallway
      except I was 16 and had a crush
      and he was 17
      and we were in high school.

      Never thought about it as an adult.

  155. Anono-me*

    OP, if this is a real letter, I hope you take Allison’s wonderful advice to heart and follow every bit of it. I know there have been a huge number of comments that must be very difficult to read. However, I hope you take them as confirmation that your actions really are profoundly troubling and possibly illegal, rather than upsetting to a few ‘uptight’ types.

    In addition to the issues Allison clearly delineated in her answer, I see several other issues of concern that I hope you will consider also.

    1. You let an intern buy you coffee. No. Money flows down. Intern asking for a networking meeting offers to pay, but the established mentor actually pays.

    2. This is an internship. Professional behavior should be taught, but you are teaching very bad behavior.

    3. You are damaging Andre’s professional reputation. If one person said something, then 10 more saw something and most of them have told other people. Andre is being perceived as either your victim or more likely *as someone who uses flirting+ rather than skill and hard work to get ahead.

    *Society is ridiculous about gender equality.

    1. How to damage your intern*

      4. You are damaging Andre’s perception of how to properly relate with female coworkers. Since it’s okay here (innuendo, affectionate touching), he may go onto his next job and get in trouble for that behavior. And now HE is the harasser. He will be bewildered why he’s in trouble. That’s the worst part of the situation.

  156. President Porpoise*

    OP, everyone else has given you al the reasons why this is a terrible idea. Honestly, this is a pretty rough comment section for you, so I doubt you’ll read this far or give us an update. But, if you do, here is some concrete advice: have no ‘private’ time with this kid. No more one on one office lunches, no mentoring, move the scanner as someone else suggested, and learn to be cold and distant with him – abruptly and instantly. Talk with Jane, thank her for helping you recognize what was going on, and ask her to help you disentangle yourself. Maybe you need to switch desks, or work from home for a while, or in some other way put some physical distance between yourself and Andre (IMPORTANT – Andre’s work situation cannot change as a result of this. All changes need to be made by you, except that Andre needs to be told by another HR person that your interactions are inappropriate for the workplace). Put reminders of your marriage in obvious and visible locations on your desk or in your office, such as photos. Find a way to reignite your feelings of attractiveness and attraction with your spouse – go out of your way to woo him until all of your romantic energy is spent in that direction. If for some reason you are not interested in wooing your spouse and revitalizing your marriage, separate or divorce and seek that feeling with a compatible person outside your workplace. You DO deserve to be happy, and flirting with a barely-adult or hiding an adulterous relationship is a poor substitute for real love, appreciation, and romance. Being fired for sexual harassment will certainly make you miserable, so avoid that if you can by changing course now, today.

  157. bluephone*

    Okay, did the OP watch Notes on a Scandal and like, think it was an instructional video or something????? Because it definitely wasn’t!!!

      1. bluephone*

        I mean, yeah, I know it’s a bit mean but…seriously, the only difference between these 2 cases are the professions and ages (the kid in Notes on a Scandal* was like 12 or 13)

        *Movie-wise, I don’t know how much it differed from the original novel. But also, if I remember correctly, both works were fictional!!

  158. TouchMeNot*

    Sure, the flirting is bad… But also, we’re in the middle of a pandemic and you’re letting someone you don’t live with touch your arm and get up in your business on a bench?

    At this point I think that has to be on par with the innuendo in terms of terrible judgement.

  159. Ellie May*

    Oh my … OP is very our of touch. “…we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable.” Um, you’re making Jane uncomfortable. “Nobody’s complaining.” Um, Jane is complaining.

    OP doesn’t understand workplace norms, (un) professional interactions – I will stop there. “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings.” Um, this is completely unacceptable and not normal.

    1. Twill*

      I have nothing of concrete value to add over what has already been said here – I just stopped in to say YIKES!

    2. Elbereth*

      For OP to be on the level, which I suspect she might be, she is being totally delusional about the damage she is doing. It reminds me of Issendai’s missing missing reasons:
      “emotion creates reality’ is truth for a great many people. Not a healthy truth, not a truth that promotes good relationships, but a deep, lived truth nonetheless. It’s seductive. It means that whatever you’re feeling is just and right, that you’re never in the wrong unless you feel you’re in the wrong. For people whose self-image is so battered and fragile that they can’t bear anything but validation, often it feels like the only way they can face the world.”

  160. IndoMex*

    Some people have said OP shouldn’t have gone to get coffee with Andre but I’m ok with the coffee because networking and mentoring has to start somewhere. But (BUT!) coffee mixed with all the other things take what could have been an innocent coffee run in a whole new direction. Also, OP never should have allowed Andre to pay for her! He’s an 18 year old student employee (assuming fresh out of high school or even going into senior year!?) and she’s a 40-something woman with a FT job in HR! Power dynamics and income opportunity are WAY off balanced here. I’m not saying she has to pay for him, but this kid paying for her probably made him feel like it was a pseudo-date. Add that with how he tested it out by touching her and she didn’t brush him off or give signs that she has a line that he’s not to cross (and continued it until they were out of the park!!) and it’s no wonder the physical flirtation has escalated. Where’s your line, OP? When he puts a hand on your knee? When he leans in to kiss you? I agree with Jane that you need some self awareness and to cut this off. Jane has done you a favor by bringing this to your attention! Start by relocating the scanner to a common area (such as the break room or an empty office). It might be a little bit more inconvenient for you but it will prevent you from having any perceived “private” interactions with Andre. Then cut off all one-on-one time with him. That means you don’t go get coffee or lunch without a third person. You can be friendly with him but on a professional basis. No sexual jokes, no touching, none of that. If you have a dynamic with any man (in this case a teenager!) that you wouldn’t want your husband to witness, then you have some changes you need to make.

  161. Lois Griffin*

    OP, please ignore your coworker and everyone else above telling you to stop. Carry on as normal and please update us in a few months. I need this kind of drama right now.

    3. Observer*

      I know you were being sarcastic. But, please don’t.

      Or at least put a /sarc tag on it.

  162. WantonSeedStitch*

    Almost every story that ends with “and then I made some really, really bad decisions that ruined my marriage and my career” starts with “I had been feeling unattractive and unappreciated by my spouse until I met this person.” OP, your emotional reactions here are leading you to do REALLY REALLY bad things. You’re blinded to the seriousness of the problems because of the way your brain is happily fizzing away for the first time in a long time. Please listen to all the people saying this is a terrible situation. You need to STOP IMMEDIATELY, put distance between you and Andre (and explain WHY your doing it, and WHY your behavior–and his–has been inappropriate for the workplace), start acting professionally at work, take Alison’s advice on soul-searching about whether you’re in the right field, and then GET SOME THERAPY. And maybe a marriage counselor. I like to think that this situation would not have overwhelmed your common sense and sense of ethics if you were feeling content in yourself and your life. Don’t look to a seriously inappropriate flirtation with someone who’s barely put a toe over the threshold of adulthood to make you happy. Get help and start working on how to heal yourself, and maybe how to make your marital relationship better.

  163. ISeeYou*

    This lady also posted on reddit looking for advice. This post is almost word for word identical. She was eviscerated there, so no idea why she thought she’d get a different reaction here.

    4. jereichwrites*

      Is it horrible that I immediately started searching for the link to OP’s Reddit post, if only to see if she responded to any commenters in an attempt to justify this behavior? I honestly don’t understand how she could actively write this letter and not realize how wildly inappropriate her behavior has been. Besides all of the fantastic, on-point advice Alison has already given to her, OP needs to seek therapy as soon as possible. I’m saying this empathetically — there are reasons why she’s made such a series of such worrying choices, and she needs to investigate why and how to identify and start to work on the root issue here before the situation gets even worse.

      1. SpicySpice*

        She deleted the letter, her replies, and her whole account. I don’t see a single comment telling her that she’s in the right. Good.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          It’s interesting that the OP of that post goes into far more detail about the relationship with the husband (nothing surprising) and far less about the professional relationship. I can see why a person might think she would get a different response from a professional perspective.

        2. juliebulie*

          Oh, good god, that version of the letter is even worse than this one! OP needs a long, cold shower (ALONE) and some therapy.

        3. Gumby*

          I am horrified. From that thread:
          “inter-office relationships/sexual harassment isn’t such a big deal where I live as it seems to be in the USA.”

          Because the country in which it happens is what makes it wrong!!!!!!!

          1. MCMonkeyBean*

            They also commented about their office having a lot of inter-office relationships, while conveniently avoiding the age/experience side of things.

        4. Coder von Frankenstein*

          “I’ve talked about my husband a bit with [Andre] and he now refers to Jim as ‘the old man’.”

          AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *breath* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA NO NO NO

          …and I thought the letter to Alison was bad.

          1. Batgirl*

            Yeah. I kind of want OP’s husband to find out he is being openly mocked; I kind of want him to never find out too.

          1. Scarrie Fisher*

            It takes a little bit of time to load all the text–were you able to get it to load?

            1. Bowserkitty*

              It’s quite possible it’s just my horrible work browser *cough* browser. I’ll try on mobile, thank you for confirming it’s just me XD

    8. LITJess*

      If she’s just shopping the letter around at this point, I have to wonder is there ANY advice columnist that will give her the answer she so clearly desires? Because I can’t think of a one that would read this and immediately have the same reaction as Alison. No. Nooooooooooooooo.

      1. NopeNopeNope*

        I couldn’t even get through her excuses in that much, muuuuuch worse version of what she apparently heavily edited before sending here under the impression that a fellow HR person who definitely does not have a large and easily searchable body of work on the internet that one could take a look through to see what her likely reaction would be would tooooooooootally understand how sometimes you just can’t *help* being 100% inappropriate in a workplace where your job description (hopefully) includes “make sure people understand they are 100% NOT allowed to be inappropriate in the workplace”!

        And on the topic of finding someone who would finally give her what she wants and high-five her and yell “YOU GO GIRL!” (or whatever the fantasy phrase is 40 year olds being sexually inappropriate with 18 year olds are using in their own heads these days), RIP Bad Advisor. :(

        (https://thatbadadvice.tumblr.com/ for anyone who has somehow not stumbled across it already)

  164. I Love Llamas*

    Can we all say that Jane is the actual adult and hero in all of this. When the OP realizes the reality of her situation, I hope that she takes Jane aside and THANKS her. Jane said what everyone was thinking. Jane is trying to save OP from some extremely serious trouble on many fronts. Hats off to Jane!

    1. ChemistryChick*

      Agreed. Jane could have gone nuclear with this, but is instead being incredibly kind to OP. Big ups to Jane.

  165. FormerFirstTimer*

    “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings, and based on the questions above, she seems to believe it’s okay to ask about my private life because of this. Is there a tactful way I can explain to her that she shouldn’t try to police her coworkers’ social interactions, especially if they’re not meant to be public?”

    OP, I hate to pile on, but Jane and her understanding of the situation are not the problems here. Nor is Andre. I’m not trying to be mean, but my recollection of 18-year-old boys is that they will literally flirt with anyone who gives the slightest hint of an opening. There is nothing “harmless” about a 40+-year-old woman flirting with an employee who is not only her subordinate but who is a child by many standards. You are not only damaging your reputation and his perception of workplace norms, you’re damaging the way he views women in general. He is still developing his social skills, and having such unusual interactions with a woman old enough to be his mother may very well color every interaction he has with women for the rest of his life, especially if this situation ends badly. I know I sound like I’m being dramatic, but think about it. Kids at his age are so, so impressionable. Just… Leave him alone.

    1. Diahann Carroll*

      You’re not being dramatic – it’s very true that this relationship will color this boy’s perception and interactions with women going forward. He’ll be completely inappropriate with all of them, regardless of setting, because OP is teaching him that boundaries don’t matter or exist.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        ^^ THIS. Flirting with an 18-year old at a party or something is one thing. Have fun, why not? Flirting with an 18-year old college student who is your subordinate AND you’re HR is a recipe for disaster.

        Here’s a reminder–don’t poop where you eat. Don’t let the intoxication of a flirtation hamstring your job and possibly marriage. I personally wouldn’t call this cheating (YMMV) but it’s definitely inappropriate.

        As Dan Savage says about age gap relationships–it’s the campsite rule: leave them better than how you found them. Cut it out, walk it back and tell your husband and take honest steps to distance yourself, socially and otherwise from this young man.

        He’ll also potentially lose his head and write to advice columns with “an older woman I work with keeps flirting with me. Do I take her up on it?” NO!

  166. Ana Gram*

    “Nobody’s complaining.” Yes, someone is. Jane is complaining. Maybe she said it in a way that led you to believe it was more of a suggestion on her part but, yeah, she complained. She (and others) don’t want to work around 2 people making sexual remarks to each other. Neither do I. Knock it off.

    1. beanie gee*

      And even if others aren’t complaining to the OP, they are definitely complaining to each other. The OP will hopefully come to thank Jane for waking her up to the potential danger before someone complains to her boss, in which case she could very likely be fired.

  167. Holy Guacamole Batman*

    If ‘Jane’ ever comes onto AAM – please, give us an update, we’re begging you…

  168. IWishIHadAFancyUserName*

    This: “interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”

    If you were my best friend, I would be shaking you to wake up. You are lying to yourself. You are putting your reputation, Andre’s reputation, and both of your jobs at risk. Co-workers are not put in our professional paths in order to make us feel attractive. This is far outside the boundaries of professional norms, and is actually downright creepy, especially given the power differential and the fact that you are in HR.

    Just stop.

    1. lazy intellectual*

      I have sympathy for people with marriage and relationship issues.

      I don’t have sympathy for people who use their marriage and relationship issues to justify being a creep.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        This. My boss in my first US job was like that. His marriage had issues, he sensed that my marriage had issues, and that I was new to the country and to the American corporate workplace, and he pounced. There was a lot of flirting and a brief emotional attraction. He tried to get to the point of a full-blown affair, but I kept pushing back and he ended up having one with someone else at work. I was 30, not 18, and I still think it was gross and predatory. 23 years later, I have him blocked on FB, I hide if I run into him in public (he lives in an area with few shopping options and likes to shop where I live), and I’m more than willing to tell any mutual acquaintance who asks that this guy is a f-ng predator. Oh, and my kids, who were preschool-aged at the time, and who still remember him coming around and spending time with me and them as my “friend”, will be happy to confirm that as well. OP, don’t be like my old boss. If there are problems in your marriage, work on them. If they are beyond repair, end the marriage. (I did, eventually.) But, for the love of god, do not use random teenage coworkers to make yourself feel attractive and desirable. That’s treating people as things. Don’t treat people as things.

        1. anonanon*

          +1
          This. I had a boss just like this. Still do, actually. He did everything in his power to make me feel weak, and tried to destroy me and my marriage.

          It started out really harmlessly. Buying me lunch while we talked business, carpooling to different work destinations if we started in the same offices, occasional joking arm “punches” and winks. Then it progressed into something more sinister, without me even realizing it. Before I knew it, I was being groped in his car after he’d had two margaritas at a supposed “work lunch,” and I felt completely helpless because I knew my job would be affected if I didn’t just go along with it. Years later, he still says I was “complicit” and I “wanted it.” I have no one higher up to complain to – he owns the company. But I am the head of our HR department now, and I am hell-bent and committed to disallowing him to do this to ANYONE else as long as I’m around. There’s a new sheriff in town.

          OP, you are unintentionally grooming this innocent, 18-year old CHILD to believe it’s okay to have superiors use him as a play-thing. It’s not okay. Stop making it okay. You are doing a terrible thing.

  169. anneshirley*

    wow. as someone who has been a student employee multiple times, I can say that my older employer acting like this to me would have immensely creepy. Even if I, like Andre may, thought it was cool and exciting, it would have been very damaging and confusing to me in the end.

    Stop flirting with your 18-year-old employee. He’s an employee, a STUDENT one, and barely out of high school.

  170. Cubular Belles*

    LW here is your litmus test, go tell you husband and your boss EVERYTHING, no huh? well, there you go.

  171. Observer*

    You know what this letter makes me think of? The one where someone was abusing her employee because the employee was pretty and thin and the OP had issues around her looks and weight. At least that OP had some slef awareness, but not soon enough and not enough to make her stop her misbehavior.

    It took her not only losing her job, but her career for her to make some much needed changes. Among those changes was getting therapy for her issues.

    OP, please don’t do that to yourself. You have issues. I don’t know what they are, but clearly something is going on in your life and you are using this affair to deal with it. But it’s dangerous – You stand to lose your career and (as another poster put it) leave a path of devastation behind you.

    Get some help. Get it NOW, before the worst happens.

    1. Observer*

      Here are the links to that letter and the updates.

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/im-jealous-of-my-attractive-employee-working-for-free-when-changing-careers-and-more.html – #1 at the link

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/05/update-im-jealous-of-my-employee-and-its-impacting-how-i-treat-her.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/3-reader-updates-including-the-person-who-was-jealous-of-her-attractive-employee.html – #3

      https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/update-im-jealous-of-my-attractive-employee-and-its-impacting-how-i-treat-her.html

    2. Rocket Cat*

      OP, you are grooming a teenage boy in order to get your little jollies. This is despicable behavior. This is how a sexual predator behaves.

      You need professional help, NOW.

  172. lina inverse*

    Not only is it incredibly inappropriate, Andre is a STUDENT. In a university setting, we hire student assistants with the expectation that they’re not just there to do a job for us, but that we are teaching them about how to function in an office! She’s not only harming herself but giving Andre an incredibly skewed view of how to behave at work.

    1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I tried to think of a comment, but my thoughts are all over the place and my eyes are bugging out of my head and I’m just overall kind of speechless right now. But I want to agree that this is an extremely valid point. He’s 18! He probably now thinks that, if this behavior is okay with an HR rep that’s old enough to be his mother, then this is how people normally behave in the workplace. Even if he somehow survives this job without getting in trouble, this skewed view of what’s normal at work is going to bite him so hard at his next job.

      OP, Oh my god, you should’ve been mentoring him! Not the other way around!! As a mother of two young men in their 20s, I can confirm that the judgment of an average 18-year-old guy is next to nonexistent, and that Andre’s judgment in particular is way, WAY worse than average. You were supposed to point that out to him and nip the flirting in the bud! not play along, geez!

  173. Software Engineer*

    “We never joke in front of others who might feel uncomfortable,” you reply to the person who overheard your conversation and was uncomfortable

    Ummmmmmmmm….

  174. GreenDoor*

    “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings” But OP, as an HR professional YOU should understand that flirting often leads to things that are anything but harmless in an office setting. You describe Andre as a “student employee” which implies that his co-workers are supposed to teach him about office norms and professional behavior. What are you teaching this young man? If you enjoy feeling “more attractive than you have in years,” go to the spa, get your nails done, buy some new clothes, ask your husband on a new kind of date….but whatever you’re doing with Andre needs to stop.

  175. SHC*

    …Does anyone else think this is actually Jane writing in about the situation? I guess that doesn’t really matter, but I couldn’t help but think that if someone was really in denial, they’d exclude some of those little details!

    1. Scarrie Fisher*

      Nah, people tend to overexplain details like that when they know what they’re doing is wrong–they’re trying to justify their behavior.

  176. StressedButOkay*

    Leaving aside a lot of issues that so many have touched on, when you bring someone that young, that inexperienced into the work place, part of it is that it is your job (and the various managers of course) to teach them the norms of the business world. This is not normal – openly flirting, paying for drinks for someone senior, making crass comments, touching. You are teaching him that this is normal and acceptable behavior in your office and, thus, probably acceptable in most offices, especially in your role in HR.

    You’re in a position of power and whether or not you see it that way, you’re abusing it to make yourself feel desired and wanted. And you’re failing him by letting him learn from you that this is normal.

  177. Erin*

    It is also super inappropriate that Andre is paying for your coffee – or anything else. He’s in a subordinate role, and he should not be paying for things.

    Pretty shocked that an HR professional is actively killing her own credibility and violating such basic HR guidelines.

  178. lazy intellectual*

    YIKES!

    This would have been super inappropriate even if you and Andre were both 18-years old and peers. Making sexual jokes at work is Not Okay. PDA at work is not okay, even if you’re dating someone. The fact that you are in HR and – I’m assuming – his superior since you hired him – this is SO wrong.

  179. JE*

    To “Jane”: If you happen to be an AAM fan and happen by, thank you for being an adult and a professional. Please print this letter and find someone above OP’s head to report this to. If this is what OP is willing to admit to, the reality may be much worse. If your company has an official internship office, maybe consult with them?

    This letter is going to haunt me all day. That poor student.

  180. SheLooksFamiliar*

    ‘Andre has never shown any discomfort when we share jokes like these, especially when he initiates them…’ Of course, he doesn’t. He’s 18, and he’s got an appreciative audience in you. He doesn’t know any better.

    ‘…and we never do so in front of others to make others feel uncomfortable.’ Ah. You DO know you’re doing something wrong. I was wondering.

    ‘Nobody’s complaining.’ Jane complained, albeit in the form of advice. And if they aren’t complaining now, they will: company flirtations are usually an open secret until someone does something incredibly stupid or unethical. It’s a matter of time, you and Andre aren’t as covert or clever as you seem to think. Jane is just the first to speak up.

    OP, I can’t find one single thing in your letter that makes you sympathetic. I’ve been in corporate recruiting for decades, and understand how hard it can be to cultivate and manage work relationships as an HR professional. But you don’t have a choice: you must. And in this case, maybe you need professional help to do it. Andre is 18 and your behavior with him is so far out of the norm that it scares me.

    1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Right? He was… jamming it in? and she said she hopes he… does not treat his dates like that? Oh my god.

    2. Scarrie Fisher*

      I would expect that interaction between two 18-year-old boys–not an 18-year-old boy and someone who has been in the professional world for 20 years.

  182. KK*

    social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings
    Errr….uhm, not where I work.

  183. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

    One thing I have not yet seen mentioned (apologies if I missed someone else’s comment):
    The OP mentioned a student group — if Andre is not the only student currently employed, it sounds like the OP is engaging in pretty blatant favoritism with this one particular student employee (on top of everything else already covered).

    1. FormerFirstTimer*

      You make a good point! I think the fact has been overlooked because the rest of the facts are just so… Out there.

      1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

        Yeah, the potential favoritism is really just a sprinkle on top of this gross sundae.

  184. Scarrie Fisher*

    As I read this my face slowly turned into the grimacing face emoji. Yikes on bikes.

    1. Scarrie Fisher*

      The more comments I read, the more I think back to one of my former bosses where I was on the other side of the situation. I was barely 23 (not 18, but still the same age difference as this post), insecure, and desperate for approval. I had a bit of a crush on her and she figured it out and fed into it and flirted with me. When I look back on it now, I am so disgusted by the whole situation. I finally left when I found a full-time, professional job (it was retail) and didn’t realize how much that imbalanced relationship messed with my head. She was the boss AND owner! Unfortunately, my next boss was also terrible, but at least it was just because she is a jerk.

  185. Pyjamas*

    Just in case “Jane” composed this letter after the wannabe milf tried to gaslight her, this is seriously creepy behavior and should be reported to a higher-up in HR.

  186. Just A Zebra*

    “I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant. Jane also asked if my husband knows about Andre, but my husband doesn’t need to know about Andre since I’ve never cheated on him and never would.”

    Ew.

    OP, this is not OK behavior – it definitely boarders on predatory, given the disparity in your positions (HR (!) vs student employee).

    Also, this is definitely an emotional affair. Using a younger, more vulnerable employee to make yourself feel good again is most definitely cheating on your husband. The fact that you haven’t mentioned Andre at all speaks volumes. I hope that deep down you know this behavior is not OK. I agree with Alison. Take some time and do some soul searching.

    And Andre, if you read this – this is not a professional norm, and mimicking this behavior at other jobs will have serious consequences.

  187. Nicole*

    Imagine if the genders were reversed and a 40-something year old man was flirting with an 18 year old woman. LW, whether you intended it or not, your “logic” of defending the situation makes you sound like a total creep.

    1. FormerFirstTimer*

      This is mean, but at this point, I don’t think she just sounds like a creep.

  189. No Regerts*

    There’s just so much awful to unpack here. So much.

    One additional point – if I were the husband, I would really, really like to know that my spouse was putting themselves in the position to not only be unemployed in the near term, but potentially torpedoing their entire career. That would be an incredible impact on the financial side of the marriage partnership. (And I say this because not every marriage/relationship is “closed” – I would assume OP’s is because of the “he doesn’t need to know” bit)

    1. Batgirl*

      No way this is an open relationship. There’s none of the awareness, none of the informed consent from both spouses, none of the discernment and desire to avoid drama you typically see in open relationships. OP has simply stumbled over the nearest situation with the potential to get horny and is enjoying it too much to scrutinise it.

  190. Anonymo*

    can we have an “ask the readers” for a compilation of horror HR stories? Not like they responded poorly to some situation, but things like this where HR themselves is behaving (at best) badly.

    1. E*

      I could start haha at one of my first jobs I got called down to HR and the head manager (a man) was there. Apparently my large breasts were distracting (I was wearing a turtleneck) and they wanted me to drive home, unpaid (I commuted an hour each way at the time) to find a “more supportive” bra even though the one I was wearing was the only one that I had that really fit me (still wear it to this day, in a much more conservative industry, and have never had any complaints). The HR rep looked like Janet Jackson and was an A cup and I basically sat there with tears in my eyes for 30 minutes while her and the male head of the department discussed my chest.

    2. 3DogNight*

      I have so many, but here are two.
      At a previous job, as 911 dispatcher. My grandboss was pretty flirty, but married, and it came across to my young self as just office banter (very different work environment than an office). However, he started commenting more and more about my legs, and what I wore, and it got uncomfortable. So, I told my boss. Turns out, they were sleeping together O_O So, yeah, that worked out well.
      In HIGH SCHOOL there was a rule that all girls had to wear a bra. If you were suspected of not wearing one, they checked…by pulling your shirt out from the top and looking.

  191. Shhhh*

    As someone who has had a coworker who interpreted my very innocuous conversations with male students (who, incidentally, were my age because this was at a grad school and I started there at 24) as flirting–just no. You’re way over the line.

    Seriously, though, my coworker accused me of flirting with male students when I did things like ask them how their weekend had been. It was weird, but she had other hang ups about my age and was generally nosy.

  192. Lauren*

    Wow. I also want to point out that this rarely affects only the two people flirting. I once worked in a seriously toxic office in many ways. My coworker and my boss constantly flirted with each other in front of everyone else. I mean, I might have been jumping to conclusions, but the amount of laughter between those two and the way they leaned over each other’s desks was…something. And it showed clear favoritism. It became abundantly clear that as long as “Helen” is the boss and “Matt” sits below her, Matt will be the one promoted. (I left after 3 months. Helen left three months after that to move with her husband across the country. If her husband is still married to her, that is.)

  193. Former Retail Manager*

    OP, I am a female, close to your age, and someone who generally feels that people are much too easily offended by seemingly everything these days. I personally have a pretty high tolerance for what is considered “unacceptable” and for pushing boundaries. All that said, this is no bueno….no bueno at all. As HR, you should know, it’s not always what happens or is said, but about the appearance of what might be happening and how it makes others feel, even if that wasn’t your intent. It’s clearly making folks uncomfortable and Jane is really being super nice to tell you, and allow you to change your behavior, as opposed to just reporting the behavior to someone above you. And rest assured, if Jane has spoken up, there are likely many more who feel the same. Most people just don’t speak up.

    I won’t pile on…..so many good points have been made above, but please stop this, for your own good and Andre’s. And maybe consider some counseling, at least for yourself. If you’re not feeling attractive and desired by your husband, it’s human nature to want to feel that way. And I’m sure you believe you’re doing it in a harmless way, but it’s not. Maybe there are issues brewing beneath the surface, either within yourself or within your marriage, and this flirtation has been your distraction from dealing with the real issues? Or maybe it’s not the deep? But I think it’s worth looking into.

    1. Observer*

      If you’re not feeling attractive and desired by your husband, it’s human nature to want to feel that way.

      True. OP, I can sympathize. But you need to find a better, less harmful and more long term solution.

  194. else*

    My immediate response to this : EWWWWWWW! This is real bad, LW, and I think you are not thinking clearly at all. He’s EIGHTEEN. He probably isn’t even full grown physically, let alone mentally!

    And guarantee you that all of his peers (and you are not his peer) in that student group are aware of and repelled by this. It’s a student group, so there’s an educational institution charged with both its safety and learning somewhere, and it’s only a matter of time before red flags or rumors come to its attention. Protect yourself and your “friend’s” learning experience and pull back hard.

  195. IndustriousLabRat*

    I commented much earlier but I can’t get this whole letter out of my head, and it has been bothering me all day.

    OP, assuming you are still following along, and I hope you are…

    I’m no mental health or social work professional (I am just a wee lab rat making wee airplane parts), but I can’t stop thinking about the concept of unhealthy risk taking or unhealthy sensation-seeking behaviors. You are gleefully playing with fire. Brushing past Andre in the hall. Walking arm in arm on campus where you KNOW you might bee seen. Taking risks that give you that little kick of feeling attractive and alive, but walking the razors edge of losing your job, your marriage, and any possibility for future meaningful employment in your field.

    Think about a person who has a thing for the thrill of driving really fast at the edge of control. It’s a rush! He gets out of the car afterwards and goes, WOW I FEEL ALIVE!!! Aaaaaand…. then one day hits a pedestrian, and then crashes through the historic town library. You are the driver, your marriage and career is the library, and Andre is the pedestrian. You may think he’s having a grand old time and is willing -hey, he CHOSE to go for a walk!-, but he’s so young as to be oblivious to the danger. And the beautiful old library may never be the same since building codes have changed and it’s too much work to restore. Do you see what I’m getting at?

    You’re exhibiting what I; again, AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL, would consider to be a thrill seeking behavior here and it is NOT SAFE. Please, if you don’t seek out a professional to help you, at least read about unhealthy risk taking.

    1. Anom*

      I think the OP is wrong but this comment sounds like arm chair diagnosis to me…which violates the sites guidelines.

      1. MrsHRLady*

        +1
        There’s no way to know professional help is warranted or necessary in this situation. “Soul-searching,” as Alison prescribed, will get LW wherever they need to be.

        1. Batgirl*

          OP at the very least needs to come clean and ask for somebody’s help. Possibly her spouse or friends. I don’t think a therapist is a wild, totally out-there suggestion either.

        2. Wintermute*

          We suggest people seek help all the time, that’s not what diagnosis means nor is it prohibited. In fact it’s actually a very good idea when someone is obviously in some kind of psychological turmoil.

      2. IndustriousLabRat*

        Ahh shoot, I’m sorry; it was not my intent to diagnose, rather to suggest another perspective by which OP might look at what she’s doing and how close she is to major destruction , and I’m not even sure what a related diagnosis to this pattern of behavior would be… so again, I apologize for making it sound the way it came off.

        I do stand by my suggestion that OP get the perspective of a counselor of some sort -even a more senior HR person- based on the facts of a) she is a HR professional herself and is still missing the workplace inappropriateness despite a kind warning from a colleague, b) basically grooming a young employee for an ego boost, and c) trying very hard to justify all of it.

        Alison, if you see this pointy object buried in the haystack of comments I agree that it should be removed.

        1. Wintermute*

          you were fine, in my opinion, it’s not diagnosis to say “you’re obviously in psychological turmoil” nor is it off limits (in fact I think it’s often helpful) to suggest someone speak to an actual professional.

          If you tried to act AS IF YOU WERE that professional that’s the line.

      3. Wintermute*

        That’s not what armchair diagnosis means. The rule is about things like “it sounds like fergus has borderline personality disorder”, or “That’s probably generalized anxiety disorder”.

        The reason that’s unhelpful is because we can’t know and it doesn’t matter what the reason for a behavior is, what matters is how to handle it.

        “thrill-seeking behavior” is not a diagnosis it’s a behavior, and they’re pointing out, quite rightly, that it sounds like they’re getting something psychologically out of what they’re doing and that’s a sign of a problem.

        It’s no more “diagnosing” than saying “it sounds like you’re stressed, you should talk to someone about that rather than –destructive behavior here–“

    1. Box of Kittens*

      I was all prepared to lie to myself and believe this letter was actually written by Jane to confirm her gut feeling but now I can’t. Ugh.

      1. Batgirl*

        Nah. The whole construction immediately pinged my cheater-radar. The foggy thinking, the rationalisations and minimising. Not to mention the secretive verbs like ‘confiding’ and ‘confessing’ to describe Jane’s very direct and confident confrontation. Jane would never use that wording. She was openly pulling OP up and warning her that the matter is now absolutely public fodder but OP still believes she has the curtain of privacy.

    2. anonanon*

      OMG. I just read the thread. I wanted so badly to believe there were two different OPs, but there are just too many similarities.

      This person deserves to be fired at the very least… Possibly divorced, sad to say.

      1. Courageous cat*

        It’s not even “too many similarities”, it is literally this exact story. Wild.

    3. EvilQueenRegina*

      Just read it. If she thinks that this flirting is less frowned on in other countries than in the US, she’s kidding herself. I’m in the UK and I can assure her it would get the same reaction here.

    4. Observer*

      Good heavens! What a lot of excuse making.

      But, also, TOTAL conflict of interest! And even more so teaching him terrible ways to be.

      And, from the OP’s point of view – even more potential for this to blow up in her face.

    8. Bostonian*

      Wow. How did you find this?

      She compares her flirtation with Andre to her husband watching porn. Yikes!

      1. pancakes*

        How does someone write that analogy out about their own behavior and not take even a moment to question it? Crude, ham-fisted flirting with an employee, brushing up against him in the halls, etc., is just about as self-destructive, self-regarding, and unfair to foist on others as watching porn in the office would be. It’s gross, and it’s obvious to everyone with the misfortune to be in the vicinity. Yuck.

    9. Pomona Sprout*

      Wow…she’s trying REALLY hard to get some validation, isn’t she? XD Fortunately, most of the commenters over there are not obliging.

      Wow. Just wow.

  197. MrsHRLady*

    As my employment lawyer buddy would say… “OOOOOOOOF.”

    This is not good, LW. From someone who also works in HR, it makes me wonder if you’re newer to the field? Or if you’re just jaded? Or if your company’s culture is so bad that this behavior is widely viewed by stakeholders as acceptable, so it’s become normal for you too?

    I tend to err on the side of being a buzzkill, all the time. I say that in jest, I can be fun. I have lots of great relationships at work, and even am very fond and open with my assistant. But I do not cross any boundaries, and I would find it tough to enforce the rules if I did.

    At least once or twice yearly, I have employees accuse others of sexual harassment. There have been times when I’ve recused myself because it involved someone higher up than me, and it would have been impossible for me to impartially investigate someone I report to – this is known to the people I work with, and now they’re even more comfortable coming to me when harassment, or other workplace violations of any kind, occur.

    Alison touched on this – but I would be very, seriously concerned about whether you can even continue forward in your current role. Yep, it’s that serious. You must ALWAYS, always put yourself in the shoes of your employee base – can they trust you to be objective? Can they trust you to be fair? If I were your employee and I knew about this, I would be reevaluating my communication routes and going over your head with anything serious.

    Mistakes happen, I get that. I think what I’m more surprised by is the digging in of the heels when someone VALIDLY pointed out that you’re breaking your own rules.

    Best of luck to you!

  198. different anon for today*

    Do not flirt where there are power imbalances. This is basic. And do not flirt with teenagers if the age difference is more than 2 or 3 years.

    I was an intern and actually ended up having sex with an employee I met during the internship – but it was several years later, when I’d joined staff and she had left. And I was in my early 20s and she was just a couple years older. We did not flirt (that I’m aware of) while working together but re-connected after the professional relationship changed. Which was fine.

  199. SoAnon*

    I’m having a hard time believing this one. How could a 4o-something woman not think what she is doing with an 18-year old subordinate employee is in any way/shape/form appropriate? He held your upper arm until you left the park? You share many hobbies?! And you have inappropriate conversations when you think no one is listening?! I am calling BS on this one.

  200. Veryanon*

    I work in HR. Good lord, if I ever did this, I would expect to be fired for congenital stupidity.

  201. Duvie*

    For gosh sakes, writer! You’re currently teetering on the edge of a greased chute leading straight to hell – and you’re greasing the chute yourself. You’re throwing away your reputation and endangering your marriage just because you feel “more attractive than you have in years”. Most 18 year olds have neither the inclination nor the life skills required to back this bus up. It’s time to get a firm grip on your professionalism, before you find yourself compromising your ethics in the back seat of some car. And if you need to feel more attractive, book a spa day.

  202. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    Everything everyone else said plus this:

    He offered to pay

    Nope nope nope. You’re a senior employee, he’s an intern, you pay for coffee! As soon as he paid, it became something much more like a date and much less okay.

    Jane, if you submitted this in order to have ammo for telling your HR colleague that she’s way out of line… you’re absolutely right, she’s way out of line.

  203. Cake or Death?*

    “ I admit that interacting with Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years, but it’s not relevant.”

    Yeahhhh…I’m thinking it’s entirely relevant, actually.

  204. Elle*

    HOLY HELL….
    As an HR lifer, I am so disgusted and angry that the OP doesn’t see that this is wrong. Get a grip on yourself!!!

  205. Anonapots*

    OP, Jane has done you a favor by telling you to stop. I doubt next time she’ll be as forgiving. You may be in HR, but that won’t stop your boss from coming down on you for violating the law.

    1. Youngin*

      SAME! I missed his age somehow at first but then went back after i read his toner comment because that seemed sooo high schoo, and gasped. So icky

  207. Youngin*

    This is appallling. Completely gross and inappropriate. Aside from the fact shes in HR and should not be flirting with an employee, hes 18!? What in the world would even posess you to do that? I think Jane should report this behavior immediatly. Aside from all the obvious work related reasons that is is disturbing, the age gap is so icky. There is alot of evidence that age gaps like this where the younger party is still a TEENAGER can be damaging long term for them.

    What if he catches feelings for you? And this is entirely possible and VERY likely btw. There are very few 18 year olds out there that would balk at the chance to be with a 40 year old married woman with nice legs. Like, seriously, this is a cliche for a reason!

    He is a kid, maybe not legally but he certainly is mentally. Youll catch feelings eventually too, whether you want to admit it or not! The fact that you made excuses and tried to defend this behavior is very, very telling. You have a really good chance of losing not only your job, but your husband AND ruining a kid long term. Please stop this nonsense.

    1. Youngin*

      Sorry for the typos, this really had be beating the keyboard i was so mad when i wrote it!

  208. Kisses*

    I would be pretty heartbroken if my husband was flirting at work. I’ve never heard of that being common, especially as sexual harassment is taken more and more seriously.

  209. Moose*

    OP, part of your reasoning is that these are private conversations and that it can’t be sexual harassment because you never do it in front of others . . . but one of your coworkers *already has* overheard you and felt uncomfortable. That’s why Jane approached you! You’re already past that.

    My other thoughts and points have already been made tenfold in the comments, but I do want to point out that aspect in particular.

  210. Van Wilder*

    “Jane doesn’t seem to understand more nuanced social interactions like flirting can be harmless and common in office settings…”

    Did anyone else think of the Michael Scott quote…?

    “Whispering and tickling have their place in business.”

  211. Talia*

    This reminds me of the Jada Pinkett Smith situation where the younger man seems to have got his heart broken (insert disclaimers about what people say in the media not necessarily being 100% true). I can see Andre ending up the same way with the nice bonus of possibly having his career affected as well.

    You might not end up having to do a public apology for your behaviour but if I were your boss, OP, I’d be seriously considering whether you can continue in your job.

    1. Colonel_Gateway*

      Yes, I had the same thought. Considering the timing, I wondered if this wasn’t someone’s creative writing exercise.

  213. MagicalTeaCups*

    I…. I don’t know what to say. He’s a teenager and you’re a 40+ year old. That’s disgusting that you would make sexual jokes like that, at work, with him. I can’t comprehend why you think this is okay. I really hope this is a fake letter. So disturbing.

  214. Blarg*

    It’s a pandemic. Don’t touch each other. Put some masks on. Don’t share the same bench. And leave the office when he’s using the scanner.

    That’s just best practice right now period. Let alone the gross age and power dynamic differential.

  215. Vimes*

    I don’t think the job should be salvageable, because OP isn’t trying to change her behavior—she’s trying to justify behavior that is very clearly sexual harassment. There are no “nuances” of flirting at work when you are HR. And this kind of behavior from a 40+ midcareer professional towards someone who can’t buy beer or rent a car is unambiguously predatory. Honestly, the best solution here is OP losing her job, thus also letting Andre know that OP’s behavior was grossly unacceptable.

  216. DiscoCat*

    Wow… I thought the coworker was overreacting but boy, that letter just unfurled a whole load of bad business. Brushing up in the hallway?! Gah!

  218. RagingADHD*

    You need to quit kidding yourself that these interactions are only done in private, and that nobody else can hear or see them.

    The fact that Jane spoke up doesn’t mean she’s the only one who has seen it. It means she’s the only one who cares enough about your reputation to try and help you salvage it.

    The rest of your coworkers know, they’re just too timid to say anything – or else they’re perfectly happy to see you tank your job.

  219. AthenaC*

    OP –

    1) Appreciate your honesty that “Andre makes me feel more attractive than I have in years.” It helps that you’re not in denial about that part, but I do think you’re not really aware of how easily things can get out of hand. If you were, you would have shut this down long ago.
    2) Touching of any sort is NEVER okay at work, with the exception of: a) a handshake; b) physically assisting an injured coworker. So after Andre helped you up from the bench, there should have been no further touching after that point.
    3) Networking / team bonding is totally fine. Coffee is fine. But the senior person ALWAYS pays. I’ve definitely gotten some weird reactions when I (an older, married woman) pays for coffee for a younger male coworker. It’s almost as if they have been taught that it’s their responsibility somehow as “men” to do the paying, but I don’t know for sure because I never asked. I have always just said, “It’s a professional norm that the senior person pays” and that’s been the end of that.
    4) Have a chat with Andre and let him know that you enjoy his company (which is fortunate since he’s stuck in your office doing lots of scanning!) but that you need to realign your boundaries so he doesn’t get the wrong idea about professional norms. If he says anything along the lines of “but we’re friends! So it’s okay!” then pretend that you didn’t hear that part and keep it focused on professional norms.
    5) When he tries to keep the joviality going (because he will!) don’t respond.

    I won’t beat you up any further – sounds like literally everyone else has done more than enough of that.

    Good luck!

  220. The Rafters*

    OP nominated herself as one of the worst bosses of 2020. Ew, just, ew. She would be fortunate to keep her job after this. Jane may have already said something to the powers that be. I know I would have, especially after OPs response.

    1. EvilQueenRegina*

      Is OP specifically Andre’s manager, I wasn’t entirely clear on that point? If yes that would add a whole new level of ickiness.

  221. Always Learning*

    Whoooo boy….this comment: “Jane also asked if my husband knows about Andre, but my husband doesn’t need to know about Andre since I’ve never cheated on him and never would.”

    If you feel the need to keep things from your spouse, especially of this nature, you have to ask yourself why that’s necessary.

  222. Pug*

    This same person posted in “Am I the Asshole” on reddit, and also mentioned that she is married, and has been getting a sexual boost from their interactions. It was also a resounding “you are in the wrong” as it is here but she refused to see anything wrong with it!

      1. Pomona Sprout*

        Someone posted it already, upthread. Their screen name is B. I’d post it here, but then this reply would go into moderation and might not show up for a while.

        It’s in one of the main comments, not a sub comment, so you should be able to find it with s little scrolling.

  223. TG*

    HR person –
    Wow you are setting yourself up for huge issues. Stop the interactions immediately. He is 18 And your Communication is clearly inappropriate. I am shocked you did not see this. You’re having an emotional affair whether you’re aware of it or not which is worse to me than physically cheating in a spouse.

  224. WellRed*

    I know it’s late: I think even the poor printer is probably feeling sexually harassed by Hotsy Totsy. But reading the comments, I’m reminded he’s part of a STUDENT GROUP. I sincerely hope for your sake they don’t already all know about it, but that’s unlikely. Please, for the love of god, don’t offer to buy them alcohol for their next kegger.

  225. Second time I've read this story*

    This person wrote into another website I read, about how she isn’t sure she should tell her husband about Andre, and about how she and hubby are more sexually active than they have been in years, due to how attractive Andre makes her feel.

    Same ages, same wording, same joke about the toner cartridge.

  226. Tex*

    OP – everyone has covered all the points exhaustively except for one thing … you said that these conversations were private, so they couldn’t be sexual harassment. You do realize that most sexual harassment, especially the more insidious kind, happens in private? Usually with a deliberate attempt by the harasser to engineer situations with no witnesses.

    As for the coffee, I don’t think it’s egregious that he paid when looking at it in isolation to all other events. Provided it was a one off situation and with the knowledge that it would be very bad if he continued to do so or you allowed it to happen again. But putting that coffee in context, it was the gateway move that breached the professional relationship between the two of you. And it was your responsibility at that point to shut it down.

  228. Six Feet Under Par: A Chip Driver Mystery*

    Given this has appeared in multiple forums, the OP might be shopping around to get an answer they want. But I do wonder if this is invented by someone who was hoping that the woman could get a pass so that they could make the case “oh but if a man did this to a younger woman, you’d be outraged” and everyone’s like “nope, completely inappropriate either way”.

    1. MCMonkeyBean*

      I wondered that about this version, but the version of the story posted on reddit didn’t focus much on the workplace stuff and was more about whether she was cheating on her husband so there wasn’t as much room for “if this was a man” type of gotcha if that’s what they wanted.

  229. blue-green cervidae*

    Prefacing this by noting (it’s been said several times but with OP’s obliviousness bears repeating) that regardless of how Andre feels about things, what OP is doing is absolutely Not Okay…

    The “we” used throughout the letter bothers me so much, because OP is painting everything as mutual and yet the actions described offer a whole other possible interpretation.

    I am haunted by the possibility that Andre is ALREADY supremely squicked by OP’s behaviour but doesn’t know what to do about it. Because he is not the one with the power in this situation; because he has no experience of confronting inappropriate behaviour from a colleague. Inviting someone for coffee, offering to pay, offering a hand/arm… yeah these things COULD be flirty, but they could also be completely innocent (if misguided) attempts at courtesy. The physical assistance honestly strikes me as equally likely to be an “older lady, should offer help” thing as it is to be a flirty thing.*

    So when did friendliness/courtesy become flirting? And was it truly a “we” thing, or an “I” thing that the OP initiated and Andre then felt obliged to play along with?

    I can think of so, so many instances in my teenaged/young adult life where I said and did things that I was really not comfortable with, because they seemed like the things one had to do to fit in. Yes, this includes some pretty heavy flirting and sexual innuendo (thankfully never in a workplace context. But if it something like that had happened at work, from a superior, odds are younger-me would have felt MORE pressured to go along with it, than I did in a merely social context with equals/peers). Yes, I sometimes initiated it – because I saw others around me doing the same, and I felt like it was what one had to do, to “go along to get along”. To fit in. To be accepted, or better yet, to be welcomed.

    Sometimes the pressure to behave in certain ways was probably coming all from inside my own mind, but at other times it was definitely a real, outside force. And because I kept a diary when I was younger, I have a pretty accurate overview of my growth process in learning to overcome these behaviours. I didn’t even start feeling like the pressure was wrong, that I shouldn’t have to conform in certain ways, until I was well into my 20s; I didn’t really “get over” the need to act like that until I was 28 (a crisis year for me in terms of personal development; if other stuff hadn’t been going down at the time, it would’ve taken even longer). A whole decade older than Andre.

    While the behaviour described in the letter is still wrong, wrong, so very wrong – for his sake, I really, really hope that Andre is in fact as on-board with this whole ocean of wrongness as OP seems to believe he is. It’s still damaging him (in terms of workplace credibility) but I’d like to think he can at least avoid the more personal and intimate feeling of being violated that is a very real possibility, from the bleakest reading of this letter.

    * (Semi-aside: I am a 40-yr-old woman with some minor non-visible mobility issues due to childbirth damaging my pelvis. That child is now an adolescent boy. He’s used to offering his Aged Parent a hand to pull her up, or occasionally an arm to lean on when out walking. He’s an awesome kid and does this without complaint (usually) and remarkably no show of embarrassment if in public. Having always been big and strong for his age, he got used to this early in life; at one point he started offering similar assistance to other women in my age range, apparently figuring it was what polite boys should do. It was A Thing for a while, as some of these acquaintances mimed offence at being perceived as “frail old ladies”, and I had to train him out of his excess helpfulness, even while proud of his attempts to be considerate. It’s sickening to think that in 3-4 years he’ll be of an age with Andre and how things like that innocent consideration could be misconstrued… thanks so much for that, OP.)

    1. Van Wilder*

      That’s a really good perspective. While this is icky, I had been going along with the OP that it’s mutual. It’s much easier now to envision a version where he feels awkward but doesn’t know how to back track.

    2. Observer*

      Because he is not the one with the power in this situation; because he has no experience of confronting inappropriate behaviour from a colleague.

      This is the heart of the problem, isn’t it. And from a professional point of view it REALLY implicates her judgement. Because you have to wonder in what other ways will she misuse her position.

  230. RoseDark*

    I know the comments ship sailed long, long ago but I can’t help adding: I had a work relationship basically like this one, except we worked at a restaurant (where the line of appropriate behavior and the line of sexual harassment are both extremely fuzzy anyway) and were both 24yos surrounded by teenagers. And neither of us was in a committed or exclusive relationship. After I left the company (so he was no longer my supervisor; yes I know, again: restaurant), we stayed in touch, flirtation took its natural course (with a brief interruption while he dated someone) and eventually we slept together.

    This is where that goes. If you start with sex jokes, innuendos, casual intimacy, it eventually goes to bed. I’m all for people of all genders being friends, and I’m not saying that every friendship between a man and a woman will end in sex (because that’s dumb). But when you start a friendship with clear, obvious, truly staggering sexual tension, it’s going to end in sex. That’s just.. that’s just truth.

    Sorry friend. I dunno how to soften that blow.

  231. TheOnlySceptic?*

    I can’t believe no one else has said this, but come on! This letter is so fake. It reads like the beginning of an erotic story. I would bet large amounts of money that it was penned for kicks by someone who gets off on this scenario. Come on. It’s just too perfect. The co-worker just happened to be at the park/ cafe and happened to over hear these inappropriate comments when they thought they were alone? Someone in HR in this day and age doesn’t see that this is wildly inappropriate? It’s just laughable. It’s a little too much.

    1. blue-green cervidae*

      Several people above have speculated that it is fake. I myself thought it was likely fake (and that even if genuine, the OP is highly unlikely to listen to any advice that isn’t what they want to hear). Then I treated it as real and posted my late, essay-length comment anyway. Because even if this letter is fake, there’s a 100% chance that there are real people out there in situations extremely similar to this one, and one day a real Andre, or a real Jane, or even someone just like the OP, will stumble across this post and read every comment, and the vast outpouring of “Woah, no” from hundreds of voices will give that person the incentive they need to make a positive change in the situation. I’m pretty sure that’s also Alison’s reason for answering letters that she thinks are suspiciously fake-sounding at times.

      1. lazy intellectual*

        Exactly this. Read the comments – a lot of people are describing their own experiences similar to this from the perspective of a “Jane” or an “Andre”. Even if the letter is fake (which I also suspect somehow), the type of situation is real.

    2. Georgina Fredricka*

      if it’s fake, why would they post a lengthier version on reddit, then delete that version when the comments go to be too much?

      1. pancakes*

        If they were hoping for or counting on being encouraged and supported, it could easily be upsetting to see the opposite happen. I don’t think deleting or not deleting is dispositive, but I don’t think the letter is fake, either. There are so many obtuse, badly-behaved, and unrealistic people in the world, and I don’t find this one implausible.

    3. Observer*

      The coworker did not “just happen” to be in a place where they are not expected to be. They are AT WORK, where all of these shenanigans are going on. For heaven’s sake – the OP says that they are brushing up against each other in the hall! That is totally public behavior and the idea that they have the slightest idea of who could see them is ludicrous. Which is to say that there is no reason to believe that they are being at all discreet.

      And, as many people have pointed out, that kind of delusion is both ludicrous and terrifyingly common.

      As for people who get into these kinds of situations? If you really think that all HR people have gotten the memo you are being incredibly naive. You really should look at the kinds of cases that are being brought by government agencies and that are winding up in the courts. Yes, even today.

        1. Observer*

          Right – a highly public spot, and one where staff regularly go to pick up coffee. Why would you think no one would be around?

          1. StillSceptic*

            They didn’t notice that their coworker was in the same cafe as them? Or that there was someone in the copy room with them? It’s just too perfect. Also, the cluelessness is just too much. Yes, this kind of thing happens, but people know it’s not really kosher and do it anyway. To go so far as to write to an advice column detailing all the flirting that you did which is clearly flirting, with an 18 year old, expecting to get a stamp of approval just doesn’t pass the smell test for me. It is a well-known thing that people with certain kinks routinely write letters to advice columnists about their pet scenarios and enjoy having them published. Someone has a kink for older married women in the office hitting on the young inexperienced male intern.

            1. Observer*

              They were not in the cafe – they were on a bench in an OPEN PARK where people are gonig because the Cafe is pickup only.

              As for the copy room – again copy rooms are not known to be especially private places. No one needs to be IN the copy room to hear a conversation like that. The minute you are doing things outside of a private office with closed doors, the odds of someone seeing or hearing you just go through the roof.

              I don’t know and I don’t really care if this letter is fake. But the idea that any of these spots can in any way have been considered private, or that it would have been unlikely for people to have seen or heard what is going on in these areas is just nonsensicle.

  232. Batgirl*

    You’ve never been around an affair? It’s not that Jane would have to be a right-place, right-time super sleuth to spot one. People in affairs are obvious, indiscreet and also oblivious to the people around them, dry heaving. They were literally using the photocopier as a drumroll announcement. They are making scenes in the hallways and the main place that people go to for lunch. Unfortunately this tracks with what I’ve seen of affairs. The people involved think they’re owed feigned privacy and positive assumptions about it being ‘Just flirting’ from everyone around them.

  233. fogharty*

    I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and I think the best thing OP can do is proactively resign before she is fired.

    OP, you not only wrote about it here, but also on reddit, and perhaps even other places (please commentators, do not investigate this from a work computer!) Even if you’ve deleted your reddit profile and history, you know the Internet is forever. It’s only a matter of time before someone figures out where you work, so even if Jane does nothing (which is unlikely) your company will find out. If you submit your resignation before that happens you might emerge relatively unscathed, although do not try to get another HR position. Some job where you can work from home would probably be best.

    1. Great Grey Owl*

      Unfortunately, the OP might not be in a position where she can easily resign. Indeed, jobs in many fields are hard to find right now. In my city, unemployment rates are similar to what they were during the Great Depression.

      And, considering that jobs are difficult to find in many places, the OP might want to be on her best behavior in order to keep the job that she has. So she should take the advice that she has apparently asked for on several forums and treats Andre with as much professionalism that she would treat a middle-aged coworker.

    2. lazy intellectual*

      I’m afraid that a lot of the information in both this letter and the Reddit post are pretty identifiable? Like, if OP really did make that printer comment and “Jane” and anyone else heard it, if they see this letter, they will know who submitted it! If I were OP, I would quit, change my identity, and move to another country.

    3. Observer*

      Even if you’ve deleted your reddit profile and history, you know the Internet is forever.

      Yeah, this particular cat is already out of the bag. The link someone posted is not to reddit but a site that keeps stuff that was deleted / removed from Reddit.

  234. Rachel*

    I’d like to personally thank Jane for helping instill in a young man destined for a lifetime in the workforce that sexual harassment is a-OK.

  235. Relieved reader*

    I actually have found these comments deeply validating.

    When I was 22 and an intern, my manager who was in his late 30s and married acted just like this. It was my first job, I didn’t want to piss him off and as I was still learning workplace norms it took me longer than it should’ve to realise how terrible this behavior was. It didn’t end well and it’s had a real knock on effect on me personally and professionally.

    I did report it and he was eventually fired (!) but the whole investigation was all about me proving I hadn’t wanted it and was too scared to say anything while it was happening as I was afraid of losing my job and was in a poor financial position.

    Nobody ever said to me that it wasn’t my fault and would’ve been inappropriate even if I’d been initiating (I wasn’t but I’ve been left with years of doubt on whether I “gave the wrong impression”). This was in 2018, in the immediate “me too” fallout.

    I really feel for Andre and hope he’s OK not just now but when he looks back in a few years time and realises his sense of what the workplace should be like has been absolutely warped by someone enjoying a power trip.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      First – it was not your fault. At all. In any way.

      Also I am so impressed that you spoke out, and as a result other kids in your position are safer. You are awesome!

    2. Observer*

      Oh, that’s just gross. The idea that the ONLY issue was whether you were too scared to say anything or not is just sooo wrong. I’m sorry you had to deal with that.

    3. lazy intellectual*

      I’m so sorry this happened to you and that you were made to believe that you were in any way responsible. You definitely are not. People with a modicum of common sense should understand that of course you were hesitant to upset a superior as a 22 year old intern.

    4. Van Wilder*

      Thank you for sharing this story. I’m glad your boss was fired (any other year and he probably wouldn’t have been). I’m sorry you had to deal with their accusations.

  236. Pro Musica Antiqua*

    Professional musician here. It’s awfully easy to become involved with one’s students. My mentor groomed me – no physical affair, but a lot of preferential treatment. I didn’t realize how my ideas of my future profession were being shaped. I came to expect preferential treatment (ouch! that’s a hard lesson to unlearn!) and my understanding of the mentor-protege relationship was profoundly wrong. When it was my turn to mentor a student, I had to unlearn much of what I had been taught and learn to model appropriate behavior.

  237. Persephone Underground*

    To try to be a little kinder to the LW, let me say this: I get it, he’s young and good looking. You can appreciate the view all you want privately, I understand you’re 40+, not dead. But the moment your behavior towards him changed to include any hint of flirtation/sexual tension was the moment you crossed the line. I get that you don’t want to believe that, the whole thing *feels good*, but you know better.

    This is wrong on multiple levels and you should thank Jane for talking to you and giving you the chance to remove your head from your (dark place) before this behavior causes more harm or gets you fired. She could have gone over your head, but instead gave you a chance to fix this and save your job among other things.

    Please, listen to Alison and stop this immediately. Ideally, you should probably apologize to everyone involved (including Andre, even if he doesn’t understand what’s wrong with this situation, you need to tell him you let it get inappropriate for work and fill in what your plan is to reverse it going forward). Then resolve to never do something like this again!

  240. Coffee Bean*

    Is anyone else really hoping that the OP reads Alison’s advice + these comments and realizes she needs to cease and desist with her behavior?

    1. Observer*

      Oddly enough, it’s actually possible that she’s reading – she apparently did respond to folks on Reddit.

  241. Jennifer Juniper*

    OP has probably permanently ruined their reputation in the workplace permanently. If they’re read as male, people will view them as LGBT, which can be seen as problematic in many offices and get them targeted for discrimination (illegal, but still happens). If the OP is read as female, I’m sure the entire office is thinking extremely nasty things about their character, (complete with calling the OP unprintable names and obscene speculations about their private life) and people will assume they’re up for all kinds of sexual advances from anyone and everyone.

  242. Boystown*

    Does OP go by Mrs. Robinson, as she is definitely in fantasyland. The fact she is HR and part of the hiring team puts him at a disadvantage if he has aspirations of working there after college, he is forced to play along with her. I have 19 year old sons and she scares me. I hope Jane follows up with her superiors and someone intercedes. Perhaps this is someone submitting a creative writing essay and not a real life scenario, as each circumstance and justification creeps me out.

  243. Anon for this post*

    I had a manager at a national fish and chips place sexually harass me when I worked there in high school (16), but I didn’t know how to handle it. Actually, I think he sexually harassed every female. When you provided photo ID for background checks or to prove your age so they knew how long you could work, he would comment on your height and weight (not bad for your height/oh yeah, that’s about right/you should lose a little weight if you want a man *wink, wink* are just a few on the highlights). Lots of sexual innuendos and suggestive comments. He would always find a reason to be right up on you, even when you were taking orders or making the plates. He frequently would schedule 1 young female to work the opening shift with him on Saturdays & Sundays. He would ask about your dating/social life, if you had a boyfriend he would ask if you were using a condom *wink, wink*, what your favorite positions were, etc. He asked if I had ever had sex with an older man. I said no. He asked if I wanted to. I said no that my dad would kill me and the older man.

    He groped me one too many times and I just walked out. I went to my boyfriend’s house, broke down crying and him what had been happening and for how long. He wanted to take a baseball bat and go to the restaurant. Luckily his mom overheard, she called corporate and made me tell them want happened. Then she called my mom and stepdad and told them. My stepdad and my boyfriend’s dad paid him a visit that night at closing (this was the early 90’s in a small town where people tended to take matters into their own hands). Last I heard he was transferred and then fired.

    1. Batgirl*

      After all that, he was only transferred! I love your response to his skeevy older man comment.

    2. Observer*

      What an awful experience. I’m so glad the adults in your life really backed you up.

  244. fogharty*

    Good on all the parents. I mean, sure, parents shouldn’t interfere with their kid’s employment, but you were a minor being sexually assaulted.

    I wonder if Andre’s parents are around.

  245. OhNoYouDidn't*

    This is so beyond the pale of inappropriate behavior, I”m actually having trouble believing it’s real. SMH

  246. ha'penny for your thoughts*

    Nooooooooooooooo oh sweet Jesus no.

    OP, this is a one-way ticket a firing for BOTH of you, but most especially you, if your company is competent. I’ve seen women like you do this before; one of my former general managers flirted with, GOT THE GUY FIRED, then had his friggin’ kid. In less than a year. Another district manager had multiple affairs with the younger male team members, and she was fifty. And I’m not talking twenty-somethings; I’m talking sixteen to nineteen ish.

    Frankly, you are a predator, and while you haven’t given us much of your history with the company, I wonder if you’ve done this before, and Jane saw a pattern and is trying to explain that it’s more than just weird, it’s wildly inappropriate and wrong. I ordinarily don’t comment much, or make accusations, but after dealing with those two (and actively helping the first one through the pregnancy), I think you need to take Allison’s advice and put all your attraction and how you think you should feel out the door.

    This is not about you. This is about the fact that you are HR, and you absolutely, positively, cannot have this sort of relationship with ANY coworker, but most especially not a student worker.

    And you should get some serious marriage counseling too; obviously, that’s where this problem is rooted.

  247. Work Time Is Not Sexy Time, 18 Year Olds and/or Junior Employees and/or Co-Workers Are Not Toys*

    Oof. This is pretty horrific from beginning to end.

    I worked somewhere where two people engaged in sexual flirtation. It wasn’t HR but also HR didn’t give two shits, so it went unchecked – and it was the tip of the iceberg. They (and others in the office) also engaged in open bigotry against pretty much every protected class there was, and then some. At 6 months (and already having SERIOUS anxiety/depression flares along with all the lovely health effects that come along with those) I was job searching again. I was gone after a year. Did I talk to HR? Hell, no. I brought them WAY milder problems at 3 months that were ignored or brushed off. The message was loud and clear and it’s not the job of me, the low person on the ladder, to fix shit, and in fact would have (in that environment) guaranteed just made everything much worse than it already was for me. Whether or not LW thinks nobody cares, they’re creating a workplace that people are going to want to get out of. And as an HR person, they’re doubling down on making sure nobody, EVER, is going to give them a heads up so the company has a chance to address any problems before they lose good people.

    There’s a lot of “no” going on here, from the letting a subordinate buy you things right on up to open sexual flirtation, but as others have discussed, in my opinion the very worst part of this ode to awful is someone teaching an 18 year old boy that sexual flirtation between co-workers, AND involving at least one married person, AND between people with double major power differentials (age and position), AND in front of people who have not consented and who don’t even have the option to go somewhere else, is TOTALLY COOL and like FOR THE SAKE OF EVERY WOMAN IN THIS GUY’S FUTURE LIFE, FOR THE SAKE OF EVERY MAN HE ENDS UP TRAINING, FOR THE SAKE OF *HIM*, CAN YOU PLEASE NOT.

  248. AnonyLawyer*

    Wow, this is so inappropriate! Jane and Alison are right. OP is waaaaaayyy past the line.

  249. Thoreauvian*

    I’ve read a lot of good advice pertaining to the post, and unfortunately, I don’t think it’s going to help.

    The OP is in a situation that she loves, which she believes benefits her. She is emotionally cheating on her husband, grooming a much younger male to be all sorts of inappropriate things in her life, taking advantage of her position in HR, teaching a student to act sexually in the workplace, teaching a student that sucking up the boss really pays, making her coworkers uncomfortable (more likely, horrified), not maintaining social distancing during an epidemic, and she sees nothing wrong in any of it. She will not stop unless she is fired. And I believe that she will be fired, sooner rather than later.

    I’ve read the post several times, and I see a lot of superiority and smugness in it. The OP thinking that Jane has to have someone explain that office flirting is okay, for one. The fact that she claims she’d never cheat on her husband, which is what she’s doing already. (The Reddit post is even worse; in that one, she says that her student worker calls her husband “the old man”.) No, I think she really loves this attention from two males. Plus, she didn’t come to this site asking if she’s doing anything wrong; she asked how to get Jane to stop trying to talk sense into her.

    I know we’re not going to see a follow-up post to this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, later this year, I hear about a 47-year-old HR worker who was fired for having an affair with a student worker. And that her husband left her when he found out.

  250. Luna*

    Maybe my take on flirting is different or I don’t see this as much as others here do, but some of that stuff I do not consider flirting. I do think those sexual innuendo jokes have no place in the work place! Even if you are working with your best buddy since childhood days and ‘this is just your sense of humor’, they have no right to be dropped when you are on the clock.

    Knock off the sexual innuendo jokes. Having coffee while on break together and talking about not-work-related stuff is totally fine, since you are on break, off the clock, and you can talk about practically anything. (As long as it isn’t illegal or insulting)
    Though I must say, you saying you are not mentioning Andre to your husband… this sounds like you are stepping awfully close, if not already into the territory of, emotional cheating. And just because *you* think it’s not worth mentioning, that doesn’t mean that your husband might think the same way you do.

    And if your colleagues hear your joking with Andre, then Jane has a good point. To quote what you wrote about what she said: they are NOT AS PRIVATE as YOU THINK. Emphasized.
    Other people notice. It’s not private.

    1. Luna*

      Just replying to myself to point out that, after sitting back and thinking a bit more, the stuff does look more like flirting. (No edit feature, unfortunately) So, please ignore the first sentence of my original post and/or with a huge fistful of salt.

    2. Van Wilder*

      I agree with you about almost everything except that they can talk about almost anything while on break. Maybe that would be true if they were peers who had formed a true outside-of-work friendship (and even that might have the potential to blow up someday). But given the power dynamics and the fact that they haven’t known each other very long, they should make sure their conversation topics are still SFW, even if they’re talking about their personal lives.

  251. Elenna*

    If this is completely harmless and not of interest to your husband, why *not* tell him about it? Just in case he finds out from somewhere else and misunderstands, you know. Isn’t it better to let him know now, instead of having this turn into a sitcom-y drama where he hears a garbled version and thinks you’re cheating on him?

    Of course, that only holds if you honestly don’t think you’re doing anything wrong, and you honestly don’t think he’ll be upset about it…

  252. MJ*

    Alison just showed us how to be professional and still let your personal opinions on a topic shine through.

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