I accidentally insulted my boss’s daughter

by Alison Green on April 19, 2017

A reader writes:

I am a female employee in my late 20s working for a large Fortune 500 U.S. company. My boss is in his early 40s and is a father of two. His oldest is a 15 year old girl. My boss often tells me, totally unsolicited, that his daughter is “very attractive,” a “perfect tall blonde,” and “so beautiful.” He says boys are fawning over her and she wants to start dating.

One day a couple weeks ago, my boss was talking as usual about how his daughter is very attractive and wants to start dating. Then he paused, looked at me, and said “I bet you had that problem!” Without thinking, I instinctively responded, “Actually, I didn’t, because my parents didn’t raise a whore.” I was raised in a devoutly Christian home in which provocative clothing and behavior was forbidden, and dating wasn’t even a consideration.

My boss looked shocked and a little taken aback. But I didn’t realize until hours later how this came across: I basically said my boss and his wife raised a whore of a daughter.

My boss has been acting weird/standoffish towards me since I made this comment, and understandably so. But he is also a devout Christian (we’ve discussed this many times), not to mention my boss. How can I fix the relationship?

Whoa.

This is problematic on multiple levels, including that you shouldn’t be calling teenage girls “whores” for expressing a perfectly age-appropriate, culture-appropriate interest in dating. Actually, you shouldn’t be calling them “whores” even if it weren’t age-appropriate or culture-appropriate. That’s a horrible thing to say about another person — sexist, punitive, and demeaning, and another person’s sexuality is none of your business — and I hope you’ll take this as a flag to rethink whatever thought pattern led you there. The problem isn’t just that you said it to your boss; it’s that you said it about another person at all.

And then there’s your boss, who sounds pretty creepy in the way he talks about his daughter and with his crudely appraising “I bet you had that problem!” comment to you. Ick.

Anyway, yeah, you did indeed insult his daughter, and you need to talk to him and correct the record. Something like this would probably help: “I’m so sorry for my comment the other day about Jane’s interest in dating. I realized afterward that I may have sounded like I was insulting her and/or your parenting— and that very much wasn’t my intent. From everything you’ve told me, she sounds like a wonderful girl. It was terrible wording, and I’m so sorry for that.”

Read updates to this letter here and here.

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{ 1,265 comments }

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      2. Banana Sandwich*

        I’m going to add a WOW! And if nothing else, it is comforting to know that my big mouth could be much. much worse.

        1. Annonymouse*

          Having just read the update I have a few questions and comments for the OP:

          1) Why is there only room for girls or women to be a madonna or a whore?

          Does this make your mother a whore since she isn’t a virgin if she had you?

          There is more middle ground to be had and that’s really not a healthy or supportive way to look at your fellow women.

          2) You’re going to get some pushback on the line about having been subjected to that word has made you the woman you are today.

          Most commenters believe there are ways to teach our daughters and other women to respect their bodies and set clear boundaries about what is and isn’t ok (in general as well as for them) without having to repeatedly shout at them or use that word.

          It might have worked OK for you but it’s not going to have the best or desired results in most cases.

          3) If you believe dating is immoral then does this mean you’ll never be married? Will you have to get an arranged marriage?

          I’m seriously curious about how you expect to find a partner for life when there is no getting to know you time.

          Or do you do that in group hangouts or under the watchful eye of a chaperone?

          I’m asking as a legitimate question to further my understanding and find out more about your mindset.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I had a few lines in my head, like “I’m afraid I was too much of a geek to date.” Did not see this turn.

        OP, take this line of dropped jaws as a sign of how many miles outside normal that response was.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Yes! I was worried the OP was going to have accidentally implied the daughter wasn’t pretty.

          1. Liz T*

            Same! I too gasped aloud.

            She’s lucky she has a creepy kinda-sexist boss and not a feminist boss who believes in sex workers’ rights.

            1. Specialk9*

              Hopefully she hasn’t told ANYONE at work (like hoping for commiseration or advice) because I can’t imagine anyone who wouldn’t have their image of her permanently and deeply damaged. I would not be able to be anything more than polite to someone if I found out their head was so full of snakes.

          2. Ramblin' Ma'am*

            That’s what I was thinking, too. Like she got introduced to the “pretty” girl, saw she was actually rather plain, and said something like, “Oh, is this your other daughter?”

            2. Hey Nonnie*

              That’s where I thought this was going too. I can’t believe a grown adult actually uttered the word “whore” in public, much less in a professional environment.

              I also can’t believe that someone under the age of 50 still thinks slut-shaming is okay.

              That said… I honestly don’t have high hopes that backpedaling on something this egregious is going to help that much. OP absolutely SHOULD apologize (profusely), as a matter of being a decent human being. But you showed your boss who you are, so you can’t reasonably expect that he won’t believe you, and have that seared into his mind during all future dealings with you. You can’t unring the bell.

              2. aebhel*

                This. I mean… feminist principles aside, that is just a shockingly rude thing to say, especially in a professional environment. And I’m saying this as someone who cusses like a sailor when I’m not at work.

                1. Turtle Candle*

                  Right. I grew up in a very, very conservative Christian environment, where strict judgment on people who have premarital sex or even dress provocatively or date was the norm, and… you still wouldn’t say that. The sexism issue is very real and very important, but even apart from that, it’s rude in a breathtaking way. I mean, if it had been that he was saying “my daughter keeps slacking off on her chores–did you do that too?” and you said “Actually, I didn’t, because my parents didn’t raise a lazy bum” it would be A Problem, even if you and he both genuinely believe that slacking off on chores is lazy.

                  Adding in the sexual/gendered element just makes it worse. Don’t get me wrong, that definitely makes it worse. But it’s unkind (and, if it’s a boss, deeply unwise) to make that kind of assessment about someone else’s child even if it’s not in relation to sex.

                2. Creag an Tuire*

                  I’m somebody who cusses like a sailor when I am at work, and my jaw hit the floor.

                3. JulesCase*

                  Well, the word “whore” could be used in another context and I might not blink an eye: “She played the whore in that movie about drug addicts.” However, OP was referring to her boss’s 15-YEAR OLD DAUGHTER. That is the shocking part of the equation. It’s just so…….out of left field, incorrect, and escalated. I mean, because a 15-year old wants to date, OP referred to her as a WHORE?! When speaking about the girl with the girl’s DAD?! Who is OP’s BOSS?!

                  It sounds like OP is either very emotionally/socially immature or perhaps awkward and lacking in normal social/professional etiquette.

                  It’s just such an odd thing to say.

                4. Ted Mosby*

                  @JulesCase casually referring to sex worker as whores is a pretty awful, dehumanizing way to speak about someone. Talking about women that way is the first step on the road to calling 16 year old girls whores.

                5. unions are necessary*

                  Seriously. It’s not about using a bad word. I’m a grizzled old union staffer. Curse words are punctuation. It’s not unheard of for people to swear during job interviews, when they are the candidate. I don’t shock easily. And that gave me the vapours.

              3. Girl Alex PR*

                +1 to the last part. Additionally, as a mother, it would be very hard for me to disregard a comment like that about my child.

            3. MommyMD*

              I also thought it would be this. I can’t even wrap my head around what it turned out to be, and I am far from easily shocked.

          3. Anne (with an "e")*

            That’s exactly what I thought would be the denouement of the letter. After hearing about how beautiful the daughter was, I thought the OP would eventually see a picture or something and suggest that the daughter was extremely unattractive. I never expected this. WOW!

            OP, even if this is wildly different from the way you were raised, you just do not call a fifteen year old girl, who sounds like a typical teen, a “whore.” I think it would be inappropriate to say this about her to anyone. Period. That just is not done. Negative points for saying this to her father, of all people.

            “Without thinking, I instinctively responded…” Those words sound to me like this was a knee-jerk reaction. I strongly suggest that you in the future you stop to **THINK**
            Before you blurt something out like that again, ask yourself,
            Is it True?
            Is it Helpful?
            Is it Inspiring?
            Is it Necessary?
            Is it Kind?

            Just remember to always T-H-I-N-K before you speak.

            1. Jadelyn*

              I prefer the 3 questions approach:
              Does this need to be said?
              Does this need to be said by me?
              Does this need to be said by me right now?

            2. Not So NewReader*

              Adding: “Have I really thought about this sentence or are words falling out of my mouth.” That is my go-to question.
              OP, there have been so many times where I have just paused for no apparent reason and I saved my own butt by pausing. It was seconds later that I realized, thank goodness, I did not say that thought out loud.

              1. TrainerGirl*

                I have a rule…95% of what I think never comes out of my mouth. Those are thoughts just for me, because my brain operates in snark mode most of the time and I have a very sarcastic sense of humor. The most I might do is make an involuntary face, but that you can explain. Wow. I think “whore” is one of those words that doesn’t even enter my thoughts, because it’s just so loaded. I really have to wonder what process made the OP go there.

              2. Van Wilder*

                Me too. When I was a kid, I remember my mom and others telling me to say something in my head before I say it out loud. But well into my 20’s, I still blurted out lots of not-okay things, because I thought it was worth the shock/comedic value.

                I don’t know when I finally started listening to my mom but I realized recently that I say a lot fewer stupid/hurtful things now (in my 30’s) than I did in my 20’s. I play it in my head, then shudder at how it could come across or make someone feel bad, then make a mental note and cross my fingers that I never, ever say those stupid words out loud.

            3. Ted Mosby*

              Ok I think this is great advice but side note…
              I always semi utilize T-H-I-N-K and it’s helped me a lot (i’m have ADD and tend to blurt things out by nature) but the idea that everything I say should be INSPIRING always makes me roll my eyes. Couldn’t everything be “intelligently researched if an objective fact” or something??

              Before I speak I just THNK.

              2. Cherith Ponsonby*

                I’ve always seen the I quoted as “important”, but I like to substitute “interesting”.

                (I’m an ADD talker and a nitpicker, and if I only opened my mouth when it was Necessary then I’d go mad – so I just THIK before I speak.)

                1. Ted Mosby*

                  me toooo. it took my so long to admit to myself how much i just blurt. I can THINK if I’m informative… although lets be honest 90% of what I say isn’t actually necessary. As fascinating as my opinions on the weather and 13 reasons why are….

                  Nessesaryish, importantish, but true, helpful, and kind are always good. Or very occasionally trueish but kind and helpful.

          4. Meri*

            I was expecting something like “my parents prioritized my schoolwork instead”, implying that the daughter was dumb.

        2. AMT*

          My initial thought was that OP had said this to make a joke about how her parents were very conservative (i.e. “Ha ha, they thought wearing shorts made you a whore!”). This was the only other explanation I could come up with that didn’t involve deliberately implying that girls who date are whores.

          1. someone else*

            That’s my thought, too– she didn’t realize it was insulting to the boss and daughter, because she meant it as a joke about her parents’ attitudes.

            1. Stranger than fiction*

              So does that mean her parents taught her only whores date? Here I thought I grew up in a conservative christian home (with very strict rules and limits on dsting), but that was definitely not a thing. And being attractive didn’t make you the whore of babylon either. I’m a bit baffled.

              1. VintageLydia*

                Some Christians practice courtship rather than dating (basically dating with an eye to marriage, often with someone selected by the parents. It’s not unlike an arranged marriage.) But usually those type of Christians aren’t keen on women working outside of the home.

              2. AthenaC*

                Not just in my excessively Catholic family, but the slice of Evangelical subculture nearby – yes. Of course, it was broader than just whether you dated or not; it encompassed everything – clothing, posture, makeup – everything.

                Now, they were very careful to say, “Oh, I NEVER said you WERE a slut for wearing shorts that fall above the knee and sleeveless shirts on a 90F day, I just said that’s the way sluts dress so you shouldn’t be surprised if OTHER people THINK that about you.”

                But the message was extremely clear.

            2. Benefit of the doubt*

              Maybe I’m reading too much into it but I wonder if the OP was so taken aback by her boss’s comment that she tried to make a joke in return and just did a phenomenally bad job of it. When her boss made his comment, the conversation pivoted to her, she was uncomfortable and said the first thing that popped into her head. She still definitely has to apologize asap but I can see where something like that could happen. (Ive had a couple of male bosses who would say things that make me uncomfortable and my usual go to was just to smile and nod. Works much better than a snappy comeback).

              1. Van Wilder*

                Yeah, I empathize because that was such an uncomfortable situation that I could understand blurting out something stupid. Disturbing that she had something that judgmental locked and loaded, but not shocking given her upbringing.

                I hate to smile and nod while people say offensive things, but it happens a lot, especially at work.

          2. Turtle Candle*

            Yes, the most innocent interpretation of this I can come up with is… once in a while in college when describing high school I’d say something like “Oh yeah, I didn’t date in high school because” [giant finger quotes] “ONLY WHORES DATE” [giant eyeroll]. Where my sarcasm and disdain was basically signaled in giant neon letters. It’s barely possible that someone could say something like that and have it be misconstrued. (To be clear, I don’t think that’s what happened here, and anyway I would never have said anything like that to anyone other than close friends who I knew for a fact would get that I was quoting someone else without agreement.)

            1. Althea*

              This was my interpretation – that she was dryly quoting what her parents would have said about her own dating at that age. So she might have intended, “I couldn’t date because my parents would have called me a whore.”

              I can completely believe this, because I have a very dry sense of humor with a lot of deadpan of non-serious statements. I have also learned to be careful of it, because it can be very hurtful, and not everyone can pick up on the deadpan.

              If so, the OP should probably include this in her apology for context.

          3. JS*

            I think its more a reflection on how her boss is raising his daughter. The way he is bragging about her looks and attractiveness towards guys is honestly creepy and gross. Most dads dread their daughters dating out of over protectiveness but he seems excited about it and brags about it, which is weird. It’s almost like medieval arranged marriage days where fathers would boast and brag about their daughters to the highest bidder for the biggest dowry. If I was OP I would definitely be annoyed the way my boss was talking about his young daughter. So while the comment was “my parents didn’t raise a whore” the emphasis here is “raise” as in how the dad is basically grooming his daughter to date.

            1. Julia*

              Yeah, it sounded like the boss was close to asking OP if she thought he should go for the highest bidder on his daughter. Gross.

            2. Ted Mosby*

              No, he shouldn’t be commenting on how beautiful his daughter is all the time, but why should he dread his child going through a normal, fun part of teen development? You don’t hear fathers talking about keeping their teen sons away from girls. This bizarre focus on a young girls’ virginity and demonizing their sexuality is its own gross kind of creepy.

            3. SG*

              I just literally cannot ever fathom a world in which anywhere, let alone the workplace, I could find OP’s response to be remotely appropriate. This isn’t a race to the bottom – yes OP’s boss’ way of discussing his daughter is bizarre, but implying that girls who get male attention and want to date are whores is so offensive to me.

        3. Commenting*

          Yes, it is very odd that her immediate “instinctive” reply was to say her parents didn’t raise a whore. Why is that on the tip of your tongue when talking to your boss? Furthermore, why is the fact that he is a Christian relevant in this at all?

          1. Ted Mosby*

            I don’t really see what OP being a christian has to do with it either. Might wanna brush up on John 8:7 real quick if you instinctively jump to call young women whores. It frustrates me when people give religion a bad name.

      2. SlackerMom*

        Yikes!
        I think someone needs a little more education on how to be respectful of all women, even though you are one. My audible gasp was more of a @#$ $%^&.

        2. Kelly*

          Agreed! Beyond stunned when I read that! I’m still wide-eyed rapid blinking in complete and utter shock!

        3. Interviewer*

          I’ve made it through about half of the comments, and it seems universally focused on the use of the word “whore” – but her remark also strongly implies her boss is a bad parent. “My parents didn’t raise a whore.” To me, that’s calling a totally normal 15-year old girl an incredibly inappropriate word, and it’s comparatively calling out the parents (OP’s boss) for terrible results in her upbringing. A huge direct hit on the whole family, in one blow.

          1. Specialk9*

            Oh no, we all got that one really clearly too. It’s like this perfect fractal statement, getting worse at every turn.

    4. LadyL*

      Really glad my office mates happen to be away from their desks right now because when I read this question I could not help myself from going “What? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???” out loud.

    6. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Yeah, I didn’t see how that could be taken any way other than insulting the boss’ daughter!

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        To the point that I don’t actually think Alison’s advice is going to work. I’ll take OP at her word that she didn’t intend to call the daughter a whore or insult her boss’ childrearing, and that her chosen wording just tumbled out without adequate review. But….the wording is so brutal, and has so little ambiguity, that I have no idea how she’s going to walk it back without the apology sounding insincere . The problem with apologizing for how it may have sounded is that there’s really no other way it could sound.

        1. Anna*

          I think you’re absolutely right. This isn’t an issue of using the wrong word or misunderstanding the intent. There’s really no other interpretation to that specific sentence or the way it was phrased.

          1. Red 5*

            Yeah, I agree here, this is so extreme there is no other way to take this. And honestly I’m not sure that the OP is owning up to their actual intent, though I’m trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that’s really difficult to do in this situation. The words were just too extreme.

            An apology that doesn’t recognize that the OP meant to be insulting and went too far will come across insincere. If they want to patch this up, there’s a slight chance in really owning up to it and expressing real regret for being insulting and thoughtless. But the OP has to actually have real regret and really own what they said and what they meant, and it doesn’t feel like they are there yet.

            1. Annoyed*

              You know thr OP is a woman who identifies as a woman and is a singular person. It’s ok to say ‘she’ and ‘her’ etc. instead of ‘they’ or ‘them.’ She is not pluran and there is no gender ambiguity.

                1. Nicole*

                  It’s actually not that uncommon for people to unconsciously refer to others as “they” when they’re not personally familiar with them, at least in some areas. It’s not even a transgender thing, I’ve done it my whole life and I didn’t even really learn about personal pronouns and stuff like that until I was maybe 18. On top of that, I was raised in a relatively conservative household, so it’s not like my parents were doing it consciously either.

        2. EA*

          I don’t think it will work either.

          Mostly because she doesn’t seem to get it, she mentioned that his is a devout christian as well. So I think the implication of that, is why is he raising her that way.

          For it to work, I think she needs to reflect, apologize, and like explain her upbringing a bit, and how she is working to move past it.

          1. Mabel*

            I agree. For that word to come out of one’s mouth automatically – just wow. It makes me seriously wonder what kind of conversations were had about dating, appearance, women, sex, etc. in her childhood home. Maybe if the OP is able to explain to her boss how that particular phrase – “my parents didn’t raise a whore” – was in her head in the first place, he MIGHT understand. But unfortunately I don’t have high hopes.

            1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

              Even so, it had several hours to sink in and marinate. If you said it and realized what a thunderclap it was and immediately walked it back, maybe, but after the fact….nope.

              1. AD*

                My boss looked shocked and a little taken aback. But I didn’t realize until hours later how this came across

                Agreed, and the above line is key. I think the boss’s reaction was the element which, over time, gave her pause. Which would make a later apology no matter how well-worded seem…..inauthentic.

                1. kittymommy*

                  Yeah, I worry it may come across as disingenuous (actually that’s exactly how I would take it in the boss’s spot). It also seems like the OP doesn’t get why this was bad in general. It’s not that it’s wrong at work, it’s just plain wrong.

              2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I agree. The fact that it took several hours for her to realize what was wrong about what she said worries me.

                I think the only option is a full-throated apology with Mabel’s qualification, and the knowledge that her boss may not forget what she said (even if he forgives) and that she may have also alienated any of her coworkers who were within listening range.

                1. EddieSherbert*

                  Yeah, I think this is a good think to keep in mind. Alison’s advice is probably the only way to handle it… but I don’t really thin it’s going to “fix” anything.

                2. Red 5*

                  The hours later gets me too. It shouldn’t take hours to realize that it was an incredibly inappropriate and horrible thing to say, or how it comes across. That takes barely any self-reflection.

          2. Jesmlet*

            But is she trying to move past it? The fact that this phrase popped into her head, let alone came out of her mouth seems to indicate she stands by that idea – that a 15 year old dating boys is whoreish behavior. Like… don’t use the word whore in front of your boss, don’t imply your boss’ daughter is a whore, and don’t expect an apology so far after the fact will fully or even partially mend the relationship.

            I also feel a little sad to know that people are still raised this way. I go to church every week, but this was certainly not an aspect of my life. It seems like this was a significant theme of your upbringing if it took so long to realize what you said was inappropriate. Trying really hard not to be judgmental, but whoever gave you the idea that teenage dating = whore is so so wrong.

            1. EA*

              I am not like an expert on this, but this was a common thread of my conservative catholic upbringing, and I am 27. I also see shades of it “respect yourself, don’t wear revealing clothes”, but in a more toned down, less obvious way.

              1. Sylvia*

                I didn’t get this idea from my parents, but I also grew up around it. Around the same age as you.

                On the other hand, not dating made you arrogant, cold, etc., or homophobes bothered you.

                There’s no right way to be a girl. :/

                1. Jeanne*

                  Your last sentence is the absolute truth. We all grow up with these conflicting messages.

            2. shep*

              Yeah, my parents were pretty strict about me dating until I was a senior in high school (and even then, they weren’t thrilled). But my parents were also not religious, just freaked out about boys, and I was NEVER raised to think any girl was a “whore.” They let me wear what I wanted, listen to angry metal, watch and read anything, etc.

              My [decade-younger] brother was allowed to date much earlier than I was, and while it would be easy to chalk this up to he’s-a-boy sexism, my mom flat-out admitted to me that they were too strict when I was younger. That’s what I get for being the oldest.

              1. Rebecca in Dallas*

                Haha, my mom always says that it’s like my younger sister and I were raised by different parents. They were soooo strict with me but way more lenient with my sister.

              2. TrainerGirl*

                My older brother was quite the delinquent, so my parents went into “Save the one we have left!” mode and locked me in the house for the duration of high school. I’m very thankful I wasn’t the rebellious type, because I probably would have gone crazy when I got to college (I skipped a grade and left home at 17). My parents have since thanked me for not giving them problems like my brother did, and admitted that they made a lot of mistakes in trying to protect me. Being the baby is no fun either.

                2. Midwest Marketer*

                  Ha! “Save the one we have left mode.” I sort of had the opposite experience. My older sister was a menace, so my parents spent so much time worrying over her I was pretty much left to my own devices. But all I wanted to do was study anyway. I skipped a grade too and left home at 16. I like to say my sister and I were raised only children.

            3. HR Jeanne*

              I am a lifelong, devout Christian and I cannot think of a context in which I would call anyone a whore, especially not a child. Please don’t attribute this to “Christian” behavior. This is extremely rude behavior.

              1. Jesmlet*

                Not sure if you think I’m attributing this to ‘Christian behavior’ but I’m definitely not (as a Christian myself)! I don’t know that I’d call myself devout, but I’m there singing in the choir every week and this is not how Christians should behave.

                1. HR Jeanne*

                  No, I absolutely wasn’t referring to you! Just the fact that the OP referenced that to explain her comment. I should have separated it as a comment, not a reply. Plus, I love the choir! :-)

              2. Hey Nonnie*

                “Rude” is an understatement. “Actively hostile, judgmental, self-righteous, and misogynistic” is more accurate.

              3. Annie Moose*

                Oh my goodness, yes. I wouldn’t even call a prostitute a whore! (not that this is a particularly common topic of conversation, but still!)

            4. AthenaC*

              ” It seems like this was a significant theme of your upbringing if it took so long to realize what you said was inappropriate.”

              The thing is, for those raised by people with these attitudes, it BECOMES a significant theme of your upbringing because it takes a lot of effort to override things like a child’s good sense, the influence of the dominant culture, etc.

              For some people (like the OP apparently) the end result is that those attitudes are eventually ingrained and become part of their mental backdrop. For people like me it became a constant. constant. source of conflict and soured my relationship with my mother for years. It also messed with my perspective on tasteful fashion and overall gender relations; I knew the way I had been raised was bullshit but what I didn’t have any positive examples or good information to replace the void created by casting out the bullshit. So I was making the same naive mistakes at 20, 21, and 22 that other people were making at 14 and 15.

                1. Specialk9*

                  I sincerely hope the OP gets therapy. Between this and the update, her head is full of hissing snakes, planted by abusive parents and teachers. There are so many destructive things in there, but she seems like she could actually be one of the ones who (with lots of lovely therapy) became healthy. I hope that for her so much.

              2. Jesmlet*

                Absolutely, it’s hard to break ideas that have been repeatedly drilled into you. But I would hope that by your late 20s, you’ve been exposed to enough diversity (especially if you work at a Fortune 500 company) to see that certain things you’ve been taught are wrong. There are many things I was taught when I was younger (most prominently that homosexuality is wrong) that experiences in college erased from my mental backdrop. I’m sure it takes a different amount of time for everyone. I just hope this will be the epiphany OP needs.

            5. JS*

              I mean I think it depends too on how the boss was talking about his daughter. The fact that he is so obsessed and bragging about how attractive his daughter is multiple times is more than a bit creepy. I actually LOL’d because thats probably the knee-jerk response I would have had too. Not that 15 year olds dating is unheard of (although I think as an adult I equate dating to a sexual relationship and 15 is too young imo for that) but the way he is sexualizing his daughter like an object is reminiscent of attitudes one would have towards a whore. While in any case the comment is inappropriate for work and that isn’t excusable even with the boss objectifying his daughter, which isn’t excusable either.

              I actually think the boss might be embarrassed because he realizes how uncouth and creepy he is coming across talking about his daughter in that way. Either way I think the best advice would be to drop the subject completely and ignore it. I bet the boss wont talk about his daughter that way anymore!

              1. Julia*

                It more or less sounded like the boss was trying to “whore” his daughter out, if we need to use that word.

            6. MommyMD*

              Let’s agree the W word should never, ever be used at work. Under any circumstance. Ever.

          3. TrainerGirl*

            Agreed. The fact that he is a devout Christian doesn’t mean he would follow the same thoughts as OP. Christians, like any group of people, are not a monolith. And that is such an extreme statement that anything other than “I’m so sorry, I can be a rude thoughtless idiot at times, and I let something stupid pop out of my mouth” will probably seem a bit dishonest or insincere.

        3. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Yeah, I am having a hard time thinking of *any* time that word should be uttered in public, let alone in a workplace. Maybe the shared background will help? Maybe? Or make it worse? I have no idea.

          Insert Keanu Reeves “Woah” pic here.

          1. Jadelyn*

            It literally never should be used, ever, in any context unless you’re a sex worker using it as a reclaimed term of self-identification. “Sex worker” is the appropriate term if you’re using it literally to refer to someone who has sex for money, and any other time it’s a truly nasty insult that, as Alison says, is punitive, sexist, and demeaning – and it’s meant to be that way. It’s not something you accidentally call someone.

            1. Lil Lamb*

              Seriously, I think the only time this word has ever left my mouth has been when I was quoting Regina George, and even then it was only amongst friends who would get the reference/joke.

          2. Jaydee*

            If you’re playing Aaron Burr in Hamilton, you will need to say it a few times in a public theater. Otherwise, no.

            5. BananaPants*

              Our 6 year old asked me what a “whore” was because she heard it in the Hamilton cast recording. I explained it in the historical context of Hamilton being illegitimate and then drilled it into her head that it is not a word that we EVER USE.

            7. JD*

              Or Danny Devito in It’s Always Sunny. But that’s less “whore” and more “wwhhhOOooooore”

            8. DG*

              Or if you’re playing Javert, Fantine or Sleazy Captain in Les Miserables. Sleazy Captain is just the worst.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Hey, good one! Someone pointed out way down thread that the expression “attention whore” is also considered generally acceptable, for better or worse, if still insulting.

          4. Sloan*

            I’m just so curious what else OP could have meant by that comment- it’s pretty much as insulting as you can get about another person’s daughter. How would that EVER be unoffensive?

            1. Halpful*

              The most generous interpretation I can think of is “it won’t *be* a problem because your daughter’s not a whore”. still horrible on many levels, but… less directly insulting.

        4. Jessesgirl72*

          Well, I’d say there is room to not take her at her exact word in this instance, because she said she didn’t intend too, but then immediately expressed confusion about the boss not agreeing with her that it’s inappropriate to want to date, because the boss is a devout Christian too… That shows some inconsistency and room to have to decide which part to believe.

        6. Admin Assistant*

          Agreed, I don’t think OP could come up with an apology I’d be willing to hear if I were in her boss’s shoes unless it contained some variation on “I am working extremely hard to drastically change the attitude and outlook on women that I cultivated through years of growing up in a deeply sexist household and church community.” Unless OP is willing to radically change the belief system that let her say such a horrible, misogynistic thing about a CHILD, I don’t see any apology she could provide as truly sincere or showing that she’s grasped the gravity of what she said.

          1. Admin Assistant*

            And I say this based on my reading of OP’s wording and professed thought process in the letter — I’m getting the sense that she sees the word “whore” in the context she used it as acceptable, when it’s 100% not, and she seems to profess a hope that boss might agree with her/be lenient to her because he’s also “a devout Christian.”

            1. Hanna*

              Yeah, the fact that the OP keeps falling back on “we’re both religious!” makes me think that any apology she comes up with is going to a) seem insincere or b) insult the boss even further by blaming her (and therefore his) religion.

            2. Amber T*

              Yeah… I think that’s her best bet, but that only *might* work if that’s what the OP is actually doing, which it really doesn’t sound like it is.

              OP, you really need to understand what you did was so far from normal and acceptable, on so many levels. Lots of deep reflection needed here.

            3. Turtle Candle*

              I think she’s also going to have to be very, very, very careful in the apology not to say anything that could even remotely be construed as “I only said that because I thought you were a devout Christian, so I’ll be more careful now that I know you’re not as devout as me!” (As I noted downthread, I grew up in a subculture much like she describes, and it was really cringe-inducing how often they’d strike up an acquaintanceship with someone who was a Christian, discover that the person was a denomination that they thought were too “lax” or liberal, and then actually say something like “Oh, I thought you were a real Christian.”)

              One really sadly easy way to make this worse would be to go from implying “your daughter’s a whore” to implying “your daughter’s a whore and you’re insufficiently devoted to your religion/not a “real” member of your religion.”

              1. Kriss*

                “One really sadly easy way to make this worse would be to go from implying “your daughter’s a whore” to implying “your daughter’s a whore and you’re insufficiently devoted to your religion/not a “real” member of your religion.””

                but she’s already done that. She knows the man to be a devout Christian & her statement does all three of those things right off the bat while also implying she has the moral superiority.

                1. Kriss*

                  1. insult the daughter
                  2. called into question his parenting as to what he allows his daughter to do
                  3. calls into question his devotion to faith by way of questioning his parenting
                  4. implying she & her parents are somehow superior because she didn’t date.

                  it’s just a big ol’ cluster. apologize, eat some crow, & brush up that resume because I don’t think she’s coming back from this.

                2. Turtle Candle*

                  Oh yeah, I don’t disagree with that. It’s just that in that context, it’s very possible for her to apologize in a way that makes it worse, and I think that while a lot of the suggestions to blame her ‘conservative’ or ‘devout’ upbringing for the gaffe are well-intentioned, they could easily actually make it worse depending on how they’re framed.

                3. Not So NewReader*

                  @Kriss, you laid this out very well. Words can be used like machine gun bullets as you have explained here. The statement is loaded with insults and on rapid firing.

                  This seems to be a manner of speaking that some groups fall into the habit of using. I left my childhood church in part for this manner of speaking. It took me decades to learn to trust again, and I finally found a church were no one I met so far speaks this way. Just my opinion, but churches would do well to eradicate this type of talk.

            4. Karanda Baywood*

              Aren’t devout Christians taught to do unto others?

              How is calling someone you never met a brutal, sexist name Christian in spirit?

              1. Marzipan*

                I know next to nothing about the subject, but didn’t Jesus treat prostitutes with respect?

                2. Candi*

                  It gets better than that.

                  Remember Rahab, the prostitute from Jericho who helped the Israelite spies? She married a guy named Salmon. They had a son named Boaz (who married the Moab-born Ruth). Their son was Obed, his son was Jesse, and HIS youngest son was David.

                  That David. King David.

                  Ancestor of Jesus David.

                  I’m immature enough to enjoy the pearl-clutching that occurs when this pointed out. Bonus points for Ruth the immigrant.

                3. Specialk9*

                  And he healed the gay lover / slave of the Roman centurion. The Aramaic wasn’t trying to hide that’s what was going on, it was the later translations that hid that Jesus healed a gay Roman centurion’s gay lover.

              2. Fire*

                Not really. Assuming we’re talking about evangelical Christianity here (which I believe we are), the latest I can remember the Golden Rule being taught is like ten years old or something. There’s something that ranks far, far above it – Tough Love. Because all non-evangelical Christians are going to hell (and I was really, really taught that ONLY evangelical Christians were real Christians and going to heaven), it is considered a loving act to try to turn them away from their (perceived) sinful ways by any means possible, and it is considered a loving act to directly confront any (perceived) sinful acts, no matter how rude.

                This is the rationale behind harassing women going to get an abortion – they are about to Commit A Terrible Sin, we MUST stop them for the sake of their eternal souls, even if that means screaming at them. It’s the rationale behind not letting gay people just do their own thing – again, Sin, MUST SAVE, MUST SAVE!! In this context, calling someone’s daughter a whore would be considered tough love because it would be shocking someone into realizing what they’ve been allowing, in the person’s mind, isn’t okay.

                Even under the Golden Rule, these things still qualify as loving acts, because it’s considered to be reasonable for someone to not always realize they’re committing a sin (being blinded by sin), and would want someone to point it out to them so they wouldn’t, y’know, go to hell. This doesn’t always work in practice – pride is fairly common, and being called out doesn’t always go well, but in theory? Makes sense.

                Of course I consider all this to be unreasonable, but that’s the logic behind it.

                2. Candi*

                  Of course, they completely ignore that that’s is almost completely in contradiction to several large parts of the New Testament -the parts about witnessing by example and being polite to people you don’t agree with and Jesus’ example of not going after the rich guy to bug him some more, just for starters.

                  It became very clear once I read the whole Bible (had to hint up one of the good translations) that not only is it a lot ‘dirtier’ than many Christians care to acknowledge, a lot of what is taught is drastically out of context. (The history of the cultures around the Bible are important to; things make so much more sense.)

            5. Salamander*

              I think the only possible silver lining of this situation is if what the OP blurted out causes this supposedly-devout Christian dad to back up and analyze why he’s sexualizing his daughter so much. There’s so much ick here, so much.

              I had what I consider to be a very normal relationship with my dad, and I don’t recall him ever, ever bragging about whether my milkshakes brought the boys to the yard.

              1. Zweisatz*

                Honestly I don’t have high hopes as he was missing that self-awareness to begin with.

          2. Sans*

            I agree that’s the only approach that has a hope of working. But she’d have to mean it. And it doesn’t sound like she does. I don’t think she realizes at all how twisted it is to go right to “whore” just because of disapproval of dating customs.

            If the boss is deeply religious, it’s possible he’s familiar with the mindset she displayed, and may show some understanding if she apologizes — and means it — as Admin Assistant above phrased it.

            But … wow. Even for the future, I hope OP gives some more thought about how that was her first reaction to what her boss said.

          3. Jesmlet*

            I would’ve semi-accepted that apology if it had happened almost immediately after the comment was made but honestly I think the ship has sailed at this point. Those would come across as empty words, especially given it seems questionable whether OP realizes it’s an inappropriate thing to say about anyone’s child, not just her boss’.

            1. calonkat*

              hmm, I’m not sure on this point. It seems to me that an immediate “horrified at what just came out of my mouth” reaction would be good, but I’m not sure a delayed reaction of “I’ve reflected on what I said and what it reflects about my own past and what issues I unwittingly internalized and I am truly horrified by what I said” would be unwelcome.

              I’m sympathetic to all parties here, but my heart weeps for the OP and growing up hearing that.

              1. Jesmlet*

                I think it depends on the person’s capacity for forgiveness, but IMO if it takes you more than a couple minutes to understand calling my daughter a whore is not okay, the apology would not come across as sincere.

                To be clear, I’m very sympathetic to OP for having been raised that way. With that said, there comes a time when you can’t blame your upbringing for your own actions. Once you’re exposed fully to the outside world, what you believe and how you act is entirely on you.

              2. Gadfly*

                I feel bad for OP, but my standard with abusive behavior is that while I can feel bad for you, the abuse you are doing now that can be stopped is higher priority than past abuse where all that can be done is work on healing.

        7. Artemesia*

          I agree that this looks like an irrecoverable gaffe to me. But I would go further than Alison’s suggestion. I’d probably tell the Boss in addition to how sorry you are that your comment came out the way it did, that you were raised in a very strict religious home and not allowed to date at all and told that girls who dated were immoral and so this was a knee jerk response that came from your own upbringing. I’d then pivot to ‘and you can see how damaging that kind of upbringing can be.’

          This is one that would have me looking for a new job; I don’t see how you recover from this if you hope to make progress in this company.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Major points for coming up with a phrasing that might actually garner some empathetic understanding. Because I was trying and failing.

            OP the above is really good advice, but you need to have reflected enough to believe it.

          2. Fishcakes*

            “I don’t see how you recover from this if you hope to make progress in this company.”

            Agreed. I’ve had colleagues in the past who’ve said similar things to me and I’ve immediately written them off as extremely strange and inappropriate.

          3. MWKate*

            I think this is the best possible way to phrase the apology.

            However – OP I still don’t think this is enough. What you said was wildly inappropriate, and incredible insulting to your boss, his daughter, and demeaning to women in general. I strongly urge you to update your resume and start looking for a job. People can be forgiving, but flat out calling someone’s daughter a whore is something very few would be able to get past.

            I also suggest you take the time to evaluate why you said this in the first place and as importantly why it took you several hours to realize how it might have come across. A lot of people were raised with antiquated or conservative backgrounds, while it might be an explanation – it’s not an excuse. If you intend on working in a mainstream work environment (presumably not surrounded by people that share the beliefs you were raised with) you will need to be able to determine what kind of behavior is acceptable.

          4. Hey Nonnie*

            Unfortunately I don’t get the impression that the OP does think she was in the wrong to BELIEVE that girls who date are whores, just that she SAID it out loud to her boss.

            And if she doesn’t believe that her attitudes that generated her comment are in the wrong, simply saying she’s working on getting past her upbringing is going to be pretty clearly insincere. It won’t be an effective apology without genuinely meaning it, and no one will be fooled if she doesn’t.

            If the apology in ANY WAY comes across as “I’m sorry you were offended, but really, I was right” it will probably be worse than no apology at all.

        8. Falling Diphthong*

          I think we may be over into the area of apologies that goes something like
          • Apologize with no ‘but extenuating circumstance’
          • Explain what you’re going to do differently in future
          • Do things differently in future

          This apology probably needs to be phrased “I was appalled at what I said, and it caused me to reflect on the things I internalized growing up, and to realize _____. And in future I will _____.” Because there really is no less insulting way to take ‘whore.’

          1. LSP*

            This is good wording, and I think OP’s only chance at getting her boss to accept an apology, and even then… it doesn’t look good. This was way more than a foot-in-mouth situation. This was the voicing of a prejudice so deeply ingrained that it took OP hours to realize how it would sound to pretty much anyone else. In OP’s defense, there are plenty of people who would never come to this realization on their own, so at least there’s that, cold-comfort though it might be.

          2. Emmie*

            This is best. Or something like “I realized after our conversation how my words came across, and I did not intend that. I also realized too that how ___ had become so internalized. I am very sorry. Your daughter is ______. I am also sorry that this lesson came at your expense.”

          3. Delightful Daisy*

            I think you’ve worded the apology perfectly as long as it’s true. I think this is the only way out of this situation, and that’s dependent on how long ago it happened. I think those who have said this may not be a gaffe you can recover from are correct.

            OP, please listen to what the commenters are saying about how outside the norm this belief is and take the opportunity to reflect on what you beliefs lead you to say this. I am also a devout Catholic but I don’t believe that an interest in dating means that a young lady is a whore. I can’t think of a context where I would apply that word and certainly not in a professional setting. Good luck to you as you work through this.

        9. Kate*

          I agree. I’m not sure on the apology wording here. “I realized afterward that I may have sounded like I was insulting her and/or your parenting— and that very much wasn’t my intent.” What was the intent then? Because what OP said was pretty insulting. I would suggest something more along like lines of, “I realize my comment was completely inappropriate to say about anyone let alone your daughter, and I’m really sorry for being so insulting.” And I would hope that OP would be sincere in saying that.

          1. designbot*

            yeah this gets into the “I didn’t mean it” apology, to which my response is universally, “then why say it or even think it if you didn’t mean it?”

            1. Kate*

              Exactly! I am also wary of “terrible wording” apologies, because those to me say, “I meant what I said, but I should have said it differently.” And in this case, it seems pretty important to apologize for what was said as well as how it was said.

            2. RatherBeReading*

              As someone who comes from a background similar to the OP, it’s really, really easy to think things you don’t mean. Those mindsets can get so ingrained at such a young age, and they can be hard to scrub from your brain entirely. Even now, as progressive as I’ve become, I’ll sometimes have a thought pop into my head and then think, “Hold on. Why would you think that horribly racist/sexist/homophobic thing? You don’t even believe that anymore!”

              I’m not saying that what the OP said was in any way okay, because it wasn’t. But I can definitely understand why you would have a thought you don’t mean. That doesn’t mean you have to let that thought out of your brain for other people to hear, though.

        10. Antilles*

          Yep. Honestly, if I was the boss, I’d probably end up more angry after hearing Alison’s suggested apology. “It may have sounded like I was insulting your daughter…She sounds wonderful and it was terrible wording.” Um, what? Are you saying there’s some kind of wording that would have worked better here? Or that there was some other way to take this that wasn’t a direct insult to my daughter and my parenting skills?

        11. Dust Bunny*

          Yeah, not going to work.

          As Allison said, it’s not just that it was the boss’ daughter or that it was a teenaged girl, it’s that she said it at all. That wasn’t an ambiguous reply.

        12. seejay*

          Yeah, agreed with this… this is so so so over the line. it’s not just insulting the boss’ daughter, it’s just *so* brutal and terrible and… wow. I read the title line too and totally thought it was going to come out “I accidentally said my boss’ daughter wasn’t pretty” or something like that and then I read WHORE and just… wow.

          I’m totally gobsmacked. I’m genuinely not sure there’s a way back out of this one that isn’t going to come off sounding really insincere. ><

        13. Chalupa Batman*

          I have to agree. I don’t think a basic apology would cut it here because of how blunt the comment was. I’d recommend something that includes “what I said was unkind and inappropriate, and absolutely not reflective of my thoughts about you or your family” (unless it really does reflect how you feel about him and his family, in which case the second part could be replaced with “and I’m genuinely sorry”). I’ll also take OP’s word that the intent wasn’t to insult, but anything less than a serious admission of guilt will seem disingenuous.

        14. Jokers to the Right*

          I completely agree. I’m putting myself in the bosses shoes and there is literally nothing the OP could say or do to walk this back. I wouldn’t believe her explanation and would forever view her in a negative light.

          If I was the OP I would apologize and be updating my resume.

        15. Bwmn*

          I completely agree here. I think that an apology may provide some immediate tension relief – but if there is an internal transfer to apply for, then I’d recommend doing that or if not, start looking for new work.

          I just think that interaction is overall so loaded and aggressive, that I just don’t see how this can’t impact that relationship going forward. It’s not that mistakes don’t happen….it’s just really don’t see an apology that would ever make that interaction forgotten.

          1. Dweali*

            Unfortunately with the internal transfer the comment is almost guaranteed to follow OP whereas if they go outside of their current employer it hopefully won’t follow or harm OP’s reputation as much

        16. Sketchee*

          In this case, I think OP should apologize for the sake of apologizing.

          Acknowledging an error out loud, accepting responsibility, and making a commitment to try not to let this happen again will help the OP’s piece of mind. Knowing they did what they could.

          It may or may not repair the relationship or undo any damage. Still worth doing for the sake of personal integrity.

        17. Karen*

          Absolutely. If we change the reply to, “Well, my father didn’t raise me to be a superficial idiot”, I think we can see there’s no wiggle room in interpretation. It’s quite clearly a judgment on both the daughter and the parent.

          And the fact that the “whore” response was what dropped into the “unwitting reply” slot just speaks volumes about the woman, none of which are particularly complementary. Part of being an adult is considering what your parents taught you and determining for yourself if they were appropriate, then taking the high road where necessary. Blaming your parents – even, or perhaps especially, in this circumstance where they were clearly abusive – is a childish move.

      2. MoinMoin*

        The most generous way I can construe it is that OP meant that her parents taught her to about boundaries, safe sex, advocating for oneself, etc, and so they didn’t have concerns with her dating because they could trust she would make good choices in line with their values.
        If that was the case, OP, I would add something about that into your apology- you meant that your parents raised you well and could trust you and you have no doubt that your boss did the same with his daughter.
        And I agree with everything AAM said about the wording and judgements… just wow. Please take that to heart as well.

        1. Oryx*

          You’re being too generous. Lots — if not most — parents raise their daughters the way you indicated and they do it without advocating the use of the word whore.

          1. MoinMoin*

            I’m not at all defending the word choice (or judgements behind it)- my generosity is only extending to the possible meaning behind it, and yes, I understand I’m still being pretty generous there.
            I know where I’m probably falling on the spectrum between giving OP the benefit of the doubt and white knighting.

          2. Vitriolic Vixen*

            Thank you Oryx.

            I grew up in a fairly conservative household. One where the use of that word *EVER* would have gotten my mouth washed out with soap, regardless of the provocation.

            Honestly it is shocking to me that OP let that “slip” having been raised in such a conservative home herself; frankly there wasn’t a house on my block where that word would have been allowed and my friends’ parents ran the gamut of permissibility.

            I am not going to mince words, what you said was nasty OP. And though you appear to know this, insofar your sentiments really smack of a “Sorry, not sorry (I really just want to keep my job)” non – apology.

            Unfortunately I don’t exactly care for Alison’s choice of words either. I doubt your boss is gonna buy this was an accident; I can almost guarantee if you approach him this way, he is going to eviscerate you.

            Unfortunately I have no advice other than if you do intend to apologize, please do not try to qualify it as you have done here. Do not mention your upbringing to your boss, it will just sound like you are passing the buck and blaming others for your hurtful words. (Really, your parents would condone speaking to someone this way?)

            Obviously avoid such language in the workplace in the future. The next time could get you fired.

            Good luck.

            1. Vitriolic Vixen*

              Sorry this is less directed at MoinMoin’s point than at the situation in general.

            2. Ted Mosby*

              Totally agree. I can’t imagine the look on my mother’s face if I called a teen girl a whore.

              Don’t use your background as an excuse. Jesus didn’t call people nasty names. Don’t imply that you thought he would agree because he was a Christian. It doesn’t make sense and you’d be insulting the way he practices on top of everything else. Don’t tell him you didn’t mean it that way. There’s only so many things this could mean. Any insincere apology is going to come off that way, esp because I’m sure his gaurd is up right now.

          3. BananaPants*

            I was raised in a relatively conservative Christian household. I still remember hearing girls in 7th grade using the word “slut” to talk about a classmate, I didn’t know what it meant, and I said it in front of my parents at home. The shock and horror on my mother’s face is something I remember 20+ years later. She explained what it meant and said something to the effect of, “Even a promiscuous person is a child of God.”

            So yeah, I was a 12 year old who didn’t know any better. Regardless of her upbringing, OP is apparently a professional woman working for a large corporation – to be blunt, she has no excuse.

        2. Liz T*

          That would imply that women who weren’t taught about boundaries, safe sex, and advocating for themselves are…whores. That’s not, like, a LOT better.

          1. Amber T*

            Yeah… there are definitely those that reclaim the negative words (my friend regularly participates in her local “Slut Walk,” which combats the stereotype that women who want/enjoy sex are sluts), but I really really really doubt that’s what OP intended.

        3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I think it’s going to be difficult to sell that, Moin Moin, although I appreciate your effort to sympathize and take what OP said in the best light possible. I honestly think OP should just fess up and say she was wrong. And if she doesn’t feel that way, she should really reflect on why she thinks it’s ok to say what she said when everyone who heard her reacted with bewilderment and shock.

      3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I had a jaw drop, audible gasp, eyes bugged out reaction.

        OP, this was bad. It was really bad. And it was bad not because you said it to your boss, but because it popped into your head at all. I’m also a little shocked that it took you hours to figure out why he reacted poorly.

        Your boss objectifying his daughter in this way is creepy, as is his effort to then analogize and objectify you through comparison. But your reaction would have been inappropriate even if his daughter were wearing lingerie to school and actually selling sex.

        You know nothing about his daughter except that her dad thinks she’s attractive and she’s interested in dating boys. That’s pretty normal for a teenage girl. You don’t know that she’s “dressed provocatively” (although even if she were, it doesn’t make her a “whore”). Calling very normal behavior “whore”-like is a Big Problem if you want to be successful in your career at places like Fortune 500 companies, where you’ll interact with diverse people with diverse experiences and attitudes. I really hope you’ll reflect on the comments and on Alison’s note and realize that there’s a bigger problem, here, that requires your attention beyond smoothing things over with your boss.

        I honestly think you should just apologize without qualifications. I wouldn’t say you misworded your reaction, because there’s really no other interpretation for what you said except that you think your boss’s daughter is a whore and that he’s raising her to be a whore. If you heard horrible phrases like what you said to your boss when you were growing up, then you might be able to say that although you didn’t mean to insult your boss, it’s a phrase you heard often when you were younger, and that it just automatically came out even though of course you don’t think your boss’s daughter is a whore or that he’s raising one. You can blame it on your filter, or lack thereof.

        But don’t be surprised if your boss and coworkers continue giving you side-eye. What you said was really far beyond the pale.

        1. Casuan*

          Yes to everything PCBH said.
          OP, you don’t want to get this apology wrong by more inadvertently bad phrasing. Before you offer more of an apology for what you said, think about what you want want to say then self-edit & rehearse. It will help if you also have prepped replies to what he says after your apology. So have replies for a range of comments your boss could make: if he accepts, if he doesn’t & if he wants to accept although he can’t yet do so.

          When you’re finished with the apology & discussion then let it go, at least in the sense of don’t continue to apologise. Neither you nor your boss needs to relive this.And know that regardless of what your boss does say, know that you have some serious work ahead to regain your boss’ trust.

          to clarify: Rehearse & having prepped replies doesn’t mean to prep & learn verbatim. It does mean to know what you want to say & how to say it. You don’t want to have to think all of this in the moment.

          I hope it goes well!

        2. Holy Carp*

          While I agree with you that OP needs to apologize without qualification, I think she’s going to have to accept the fact that her boss will never look her the same or feel the same about her. I can easily imagine how I would feel and react if anyone called or even insinuated my child was a whore, but an employee, a direct report? She crossed so many lines leading me to think who the $%*#$ does she think she is? Talk about bad judgment.
          And if OP works with clients, boss is going to have a lot more to think about as OP clearly has no filter and very poor decision making skills. I think she should start looking for a new job because this, for me, is quite unforgiveable regardless of how she apologizes.

          1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I agree. I honestly don’t know if she can come back from this. I would be surprised if her relationship with her boss ever goes back to “normal.”

            1. Holy Carp*

              Somewhere further down, someone referred to her behavior as aggressive. I felt like that was the word I was looking for, in addition to vicious. I’m not trying to pile on the OP here, I’m just completely gobsmacked that these words could come out of her mouth – and as a boss, it would raise major red flags and concerns for me. I won’t comment on how she’s allowed to think and so will stay on what she spoke. I want to say that it verges on insubordination, but that doesn’t quite fit. It’s simply one of the most confounding things I’ve ever heard and I would never trust that person again.

          2. Halpful*

            While I agree that this was Really Really Bad, and probably won’t be forgotten… I’m surprised so many people are calling it unforgivable and saying she should get a new job. (Part of me is reminded of Starlight Glimmer and the bad advice from Changeling-Twilight.)

            The boss is christian, and forgiveness is a big part of christianity (or, a big part of the New Testament at least). If OP learns from this and comes to understand how wrong it was, I don’t think it’s constructive to frame this in such a hopeless way. It’s worth *trying* to make amends, even if it’s not perfectly successful in the end.

            1. Holy Carp*

              As a Christian, yes, forgiveness is a big part of Christianity. Forgiveness means many different things, however. And let’s look at this from purely a professional perspective.
              OP is in her LATE 20s, which means she’s had a lot of exposure to professional norms as well as societal norms. I’ll assume she went to college, so she started being exposed to those by age 18. I’m not going to dwell on the aggressive insult she lobbed her boss’ way. I’ll stick with her ability to adhere to the norms. If she feels it is ok to speak to her boss this way about an underage girl who is being normal and she excuses this with her Christian upbringing, how is she going to deal with co-workers who are gay, who are transgender, who are fluid? She is quite possibly lawsuit waiting to happen. If she works with clients, I ask the same questions.
              She didn’t have the awareness to not speak to her boss – the person who has the ability to hire and fire her, who has the ability to make her life miserable; where on earth would you have the confidence that she would not say such reprehensible things to clients, who could also file a lawsuit as well as take their business elsewhere and spread by word of mouth to other current and future clients?
              As a Christian, I could forgive her as a person. But as an employee, with that one sentence she sent off so many red flags that the sky was lit up as if it were on fire.

              1. Holy Carp*

                that said, I completely recommend she apologize – simply and sincerely. There wouldn’t be much chance of turning this around with me, but perhaps there is with her boss.

                1. Hey Nonnie*

                  I would like to point out, however, that her reason for apologizing shouldn’t be to “turn things around,” that is, to reap a benefit for herself. She should apologize because she is sorry she harmed her boss and his daughter, period. This isn’t about the OP.

              2. Halpful*

                She didn’t have the awareness *then*. But if she’s reading these comments, it’ll be hard to stay ignorant. People can change, and if she demonstrates that she’s changing and trying to do better, a good boss would *consider* giving her a second chance.

                I’ve changed a heck of a lot since I was 28 (which was also my first real exposure to professional norms, actually). People don’t magically stop learning at 25, it just takes more effort to undo older habits.

              3. TootsNYC*

                yeah, the “late 20s” thing really makes this worse–this isn’t “naive young woman parroting verbiage her parents threw around so easily that she doesn’t quite realize how extreme this is.”

              4. One of the Sarahs*

                Completely agree – as a boss, I could overlook an inadvertent insult, IF it didn’t raise a whole parade of red flags, but this would make me genuinely concerned that it would only be a matter of time before she was throwing out other prejudice in a blasé style. The fact she didn’t even recognise what she’d said as inappropriate in the moment would be a huge part of that too.

              5. Karen*

                Forgiveness for the person, sure. But however we want to view the boss, he has to consider that if she’d make such an appalling reply to him, it’s only a matter of time before clients and coworkers are similarly impacted. In my world, this woman is out the door, regardless of my religion, her religion, whether or not her apology is sound, etc. She’s potential big trouble for the business, and it’s not the boss’s responsibility to help her learn – his responsibility is to the business.

            2. RG*

              Forgiveness isn’t automatic, nor does it mean that you have to reconcile with the person. Should you forgive someone? Yes, if not now then at some point. Do you have to keep interacting with them? No.

              1. Halpful*

                That’s a good point.

                Also, I might have been underestimating just how personal the insult may have felt to the boss, since I don’t have kids. The closest experience I can think of is finding out some horrible things my mother said to my sister (which were really the last straw after all she’s said to me), and yeah, I’m not sure I could forgive that if she ever became willing to apologize. (and part of my brain is still trying to make me feel guilty for it; I needed that reminder that it’s sometimes ok not to reconcile)

              2. Specialk9*

                Thank you for this. My Evangelical Christian childhood scarred me with the abuse of forgiveness. It’s so often used as a tool by those who do wrong, to deflect and avoid their guilt and re-harm victims.

                I’ve come to realize that I do not owe “I forgive you” to one who hurts me – they need to fix their own insides and make restitution on their own, and I can heal the damage they did to me in private, between me and the universe.

                I owe forgiveness to no-one.

                I choose not to hold bitterness in my heart, because it’s not healthy for me, but nobody gets to demand forgiveness right after hurting me. Or ever.

            3. Gadfly*

              Her boss is a self proclaimed Christian just like OP (notice that it didn’t do OP any favors in this circumstance) who seems to be heavily sexualizing his daughter (is that a Christian thing to do?)

              Christianity incorporates so many sects with rather different interpretations of what it means to be a Christian and so many people within each sect that run in different directions with each interpretation, that using “the boss is a Christian and so should be forgiving” falls somewhere between naive and bigoted, really (ask any non-Christian who has had this used against them, or Christian–especially women and POC–who’ve had it held against them in regards to abusive situations.)

              1. Halpful*

                Yes, the “you must forgive (and give them unlimited chances to hurt you again) or you’re a bad person” thing is awful. What I was trying to say was “there’s still hope that the boss may *choose* to forgive OP”.

        3. N*

          Agree to all of this. Even if you feel that way about his daughter (but Princess Consuela Bannana Hammock’s comment sums up why that’s messed up on a lot of levels) using any sort of language like that in the workplace isn’t appropriate, anyway, ESPECIALLY in regards to an underage person.

          1. N*

            also…fighting urge to talk about how being a Christian definitely doesn’t give you the right to start casting stones at “whores”…but that’s not related to the workplace.

            1. Holy Carp*

              Speaking as a Christian, I personally think she needs to leave out anything related to being raised a Christian. I was raised very conservative and Christian and this thought would never be in my head let alone come out of my mouth. To use her background is just using it as an excuse – she is, after all, in her LATE 20s. She’s old enough to know professional norms and the acceptable norms of society. This OP needs to simply say “I am so sorry, I crossed so many acceptable boundaries and I hope you can forgive me.” And leave it at that unless she wants to follow with her resignation.

            2. Annie Moose*

              >casting stones at “whores”

              Appropriate wording… given the story about Jesus preventing the stoning of the woman caught in adultery!

        4. Bwmn*

          I think part of what makes the comment so jarring and potentially demands the OP to just look for a new job is that in addition to how harsh the comment – it’s also not a common workplace gaffe. Getting too drunk at the office party – not to argue whether it’s better or worse – but it’s quite common. And depending on where you work, you might now have even been the only person to over indulge at a specific event.

          But to give this the most generous cross cultural confusion interpretation….it’s just not a gaffe that is common. These days having a rant about work being frustrating on social media has probably gotten more than one person in some degree of hot water – and having to talk to someone about professional boundaries with the workplace on Facebook may be happening in some HR office at this very moment. But I think what makes this so harsh, in addition to the language being used – is that this is also beyond typical Boss/Staff Gaffes.

        5. Security SemiPro*

          I too had an extreme reaction just reading that comment.

          I try to be a calm, understanding, coaching, learning opportunity kind of manager, but if someone casually called my (precious, beautiful, brilliant, strong, amazing, light of my life) daughter a whore without an instant groveling shame dance attempt at recovery… I don’t think I could be a great manager for them anymore. I’m concerned that my in the moment protective/defensive reaction would also be unprofessional. I’m pretty sure that my long term relationship with them would be shattered, and I’m not sure I could find the motivation to fix it.

          That is so wrong, OP, so far from right you can’t see okay from where you are. I hope you can re-examine how you think about women and sexuality from here and find a more respectful place.

          Your boss is also being gross about his daughter, I wish her the best of luck.

      4. JS*

        IMO, its insulting the boss, not the daughter since he is so creepily involved in her dating life and bragging about her attractiveness.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          I just realized that my hand has been covering my mouth since I opened this post. Wow.

    10. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Me too! And I can honestly say that’s the first time that has ever happened at an AAM letter. (I have laughed, I have said, “Oh crap”, my eyes have widened… but whoa.)

    11. OB*

      Y’all, can we just nip this thread in the bud? While it’s not quite a pile-on to the OP, it’s not constructive or helpful or insightful. I don’t feel comments like “wow!” add anything to the conversation or comments section

      1. OB*

        Adding—I’m sure many people come to the comments for various reasons, but I come here for comments like CaliCali’s, which has substance and insight

      2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        It’s constructive in that I think OP doesn’t fully realize how out of line either the intended or semantic message of her statement was.

        1. jamlady*

          Yes, and I think it’s important because I think a lot of us feel she can’t come back from this, and our reactions, even just the shocked ones with no advice, give her some understanding as to why.

        2. Kate*

          Agree. Sometimes you don’t realize how awful something is when one person tells you, or even a few. For example, how many people have written in, who seem to read this site, and still ask if their really awful abusive boss is abusive?

        3. Not So NewReader*

          I’d like to offer the suggestion that she wrote AAM because she knew she had a real problem. She may not be sure about the particulars or the various angles, but people don’t write in if they think everything is okay.
          [I’d like to thank Alison for taking on the tough questions, this is a tough situation to recoup from.]

      3. Jess*

        Yeah, I’d been expecting something like “brunettes look awful in purple” when she was behind you being a brunette in purple.

        OP, please don’t think people’s Christianity is going to alleviate how wrong what you said is/sounds to them.

        The upside is your boss will probably stop making inappropriate “my daughter is hot and so are you” conversation with you.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yeah, the fact that you both identify as Christian buys you no “get out of unspeakably massive social kamikaze free” card.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Now that would be a useful variation on those homemade Free Hedge Clipping coupon books people give as gifts.

        2. Jessesgirl72*

          I expected a rude comment about the girl not being as beautiful as described. That was really shocking.

          2. MoinMoin*

            Me too, or a rude comment to him about how the guest in the office looked only to find out she was his daughter.

        1. Lissa*

          Why “no”? Every other time there is a mass of comments that say essentially the same thing, shock/horror what have you, we’re told to rein it in, that we don’t need to hear the same thing 200 times. (Comments with substance are different). I don’t see how dozens of comments about shock-horror at the OP and how what she said was unforgivable are going to be helpful to her or other commenters, and the fact that people are also getting aggressive with commenters who even take it to 95% awful instead of 100% makes it very hard to see it as a discussion, not just a bunch of people wanting to get their mad on.

      5. MegaMoose, Esq*

        Well, we can collapse threads, so maybe it’s useful to have a place to concentrate the expressions of disbelief? Because, woah.

      6. George Willard*

        I strongly disagree. It’s a good message to anyone reading this site that the collective response to this was total shock.

      7. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Normally I’d agree with you, OB, but this thread is an exception. First, because what happened was so shocking that people need a bucket to express their feelings. Second, because OP doesn’t seem to understand that what she said was 1000% inappropriate, offensive, and unacceptable in any workplace in any context—she thinks her error was insulting her boss’s child-rearing (!!).

      8. Casuan*

        To me, simple comments such as “this,” “agree,” “wow,” “Wtf?,” “+1[000000]” et cetera are helpful because they quickly give a larger opinion base for an OP to understand how good, bad, ludicrous et cetera their situation is. Indeed, this helps others & not just the OP.
        Ultimately it’s for Alison to decide if she doesn’t want these types of comments.

        to be clear: OB, my intent isn’t to critique your comment; just wanted to give my perspective.

      9. Temperance*

        She needs to know how inappropriate and frankly shocking her behavior is to those of us outside her religious bubble. Point, blank, period.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yes. And, without making generalizations to any particular bubble, I think people’s language gets much freer when they’re with someone who they think is in their bubble and will get what they “really mean” when they use language like that.

        2. Holy Carp*

          and to those that are within the religious bubble. I can think of no context where this would be anything less than beyond the pale. She called his daughter a whore. She said he’s raising a whore. I can’t even imagine how any employee would think this was ok to say to her boss. Ever.

          1. Temperance*

            In my church, it was very common for women and girls who didn’t act “right” to be called whores. Calling someone’s daughter a whore would be not great, but calling a woman who showed her shoulders a whore was de rigeur for the culture.

            It’s very likely that LW was in a very us vs. them sort of setting, and calling someone a whore who didn’t behave “modestly” was the norm, so she slipped.

            1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

              The casual viciousness of this kind of behavior is….really something.

              1. LavaLamp*

                I recently read a book about a woman who escaped a religion that would call this sort of comment okay. It’s worse than vicious. The book is called I Fired God, if anyone is interested but be warned it’s got graphic abuse of people and animals in it.

                This comment really wasn’t okay, don’t get me wrong but I can see where someone who’s raised in that sort of way would have that thought in their heads.

            2. BananaPants*

              Frankly, if that’s the case, then what’s to stop her from “slipping” and using similarly awful language about an LGBT coworker or client? That’ll get her fired so quickly her head will spin.

              If she’s going to work for a Fortune 500 company, she needs to get past the excuse of her upbringing (although that feels like a huge cop-out on her part since it took her hours to realize she’d called her boss’ teenage daughter a whore) and not say the first thing that comes out of her mouth.

            3. Beverly Cleary Doesn't Live Here*

              I was one of those “girls” who was referred to as a “whore” and “slut” when they were only 13, 14, 15 years old. A lot of it was because I developed sooner than the others. And it was also because I had the audacity to admit that I liked boys. I was incredibly embarrassed and traumatized by it. If the OP was my employee and she had pulled that BS in front of me, I would have fired her on the spot.

            4. mountain cat*

              Yep. Same thought here, Temperance. It didn’t have quite the same shock value to me growing up as it would have to others because it was meant to firmly get across identification of sin of anything from immodesty of clothing (purposely inviting sexual attention) to sexual behavior. (Women only, of course). That word was likely a norm for her in such discussion and could still be. She may still have some beliefs like this – which is her right – but possibly made the unconscious assumption that he does, too, to some extent, so her filter may have been off. Not excusing, just explaining where it likely came from. I knew even at a young age not to talk like that “outside”.

              That word is thrown about far more than you would ever guess in certain circles to get a point across.

      10. Lily in NYC*

        Yeah, I agree. I finally remembered we can collapse threads here (at the top of the comments section) and it has made things so much easier now that Alison gets so many repetitive comments.

    13. Lynxa*

      I made a high pitched keening sound. What on EARTH! I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around THINKING this, much less saying it out LOUD.

      TO YOUR BOSS. ABOUT HIS DAUGHTER.

      And then not realizing how it could have been taken until hours later!

      2. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Yeah, was so NOT expecting that. Not sure how you would recover from that. I would sincerely apologize, but I wouldn’t expect things to be the same.

    14. MLHD*

      The biggest shock for me was that she didn’t realize UNTIL LATER that what she said was wildly inappropriate and insulting. Wow.

      And also the idea that a teenager who wants to date is a whore. Wow. How sad.

        3. WhirlwindMonk*

          You are the only person who said anything about boys. The OP screwed up big time, but let’s not push an unfounded claim of sexism on her.

          3. Marillenbaum*

            The claim of sexism isn’t unfounded when someone is throwing around the word “whore” to describe a teenager.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              If the boss was talking about his son would she still have made the whore reference? We don’t know the actual answer to that, however it does take two to tango but typically it’s women who get called whores for “tangoing”.

              I have a male friend who describes his younger self as a “slut”. I have to admit the first time I heard him say that I said, whoa. I almost never hear males being referred to in that context.

          4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Implying that a 15 year old girl who’s interested in dating a “whore” is not only textbook misogyny, it’s like a Gender Studies 101 first-day example.

          5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            What she said was sexist and misogynistic regardless of her feelings about whether boys’ desire to date makes them “whores,” as well. So there’s no “unfounded claim,” here.

            But you’re right that we may want to limit speculation on the “boys will be boys” front. Frankly, OP’s comment is so extreme on its own that we don’t need to spin out analogies to highlight how inappropriate it was.

            1. WhirlwindMonk*

              That’s definitely fair, I expressed my point poorly. I should have used “double standard” instead of “sexism”.

              1. AD*

                Your point was non-existent. Referring to women as “whores”, as people have pointed out, is pretty much the textbook definition of sexism or misogyny.

                1. WhirlwindMonk*

                  …why are you arguing against my use of the word “sexism” in a reply to a post where I explicitly said that “sexism” was a poor word choice that did not reflect the point I was trying to make?

            2. Turtle Candle*

              I would also limit speculation, because we don’t have any idea–and I grew up in a subculture much like this, and the boys were also held to ‘no dating, no sex’ standards. One boy in my class senior year got expelled from school weeks before graduation for having had sex. Using the word “whore” in this way is undoubtedly misogynistic, but there actually are cultures that really do punish boys as well as girls for what they perceive as being inappropriately sexual.

          6. Temperance*

            Oh, it’s founded. The word “whore”, in Christian culture, exclusively applies to women and girls.

            1. Buffy Summers*

              I don’t know of any culture where the word, in general, applies to anyone other than women/girls. Obviously I’m not familiar with every culture that exists, but it’s not a “Christian culture” thing at all.
              I would be willing to bet that when most people in the U.S. hear that word, they immediately think woman or girl, just because that’s how it’s always been used.
              Obviously it can pertain to a man or a woman, but even the Merriam-Webster dictionary’s first definition is a woman that has sex for money or an immoral woman.
              So, I don’t think it’s fair to represent it as a thing that exists only within “Christian culture”. It’s not. Not even close.
              In fact, like the OP, I was also raised very devoutly Christian and grew up with some really misogynistic and sexist views on many things, but that word was never, ever tossed around casually or used in general conversations. It was a bad word and if my mother had ever caught me using it, she’d have washed my mouth out with soap. (not literally) I’m still very devout and conservative in most of my views, but I don’t use that word. So, please don’t push the idea that it’s a Christian thing. It’s not.
              Maybe you didn’t mean it that way. I hope not. But that’s how I read it.

          7. Mike C.*

            Uh, did you notice how the issue of “attention from boys” is blamed entirely on the young woman in question? As if she’s drawing them in with her feminine charms? You know, instead of the boys acting on their own to anything that remotely looks like a girl?

            There’s a massive double-standard at play here and you need to acknowledge it, WhirlwindMonk.

            1. WhirlwindMonk*

              Except OPs reply was not in response to “My daughter is so pretty the boys won’t leave her alone”, it was in response to “My daughter wants to start dating.” To me, that implies that OP was saying “I didn’t want to date because I wasn’t a whore”, not “The boys didn’t pay attention to me because I wasn’t a whore.” Maybe she did mean the second one, because it is somewhat ambiguous, but I don’t think the first one is an impossible reading or an impossible opinion for someone to have.

              1. TL -*

                I think any time you are using the word whore to define or refer to a woman or girl, you are committing a sexist act.

                The only exception is if it’s an accepted joke between you and another person – my roommate and I will be answering all questions with, “because my parents didn’t raise me to be a whore” for at least the next week. (Or if you’re reclaiming it, as mentioned above.)

                As that was certainly not the case here, we have all the evidence needed to conclude a sexist statement was made.

        4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Boys will, after all, be boys.

          (I cringed watching my fingers type that.)

      2. a Gen X manager*

        Yes! THIS! I’m still flabbergasted by both “instinctively” and “until hours later”.

        1. Jadelyn*

          The “instinctively” part is what got me – how is it instinctive to throw around ugly, misogynist insults like that? OP, I know you’re kinda getting piled on right now, but if you see this, please consider that there is something seriously, SERIOUSLY wrong with your instincts if calling someone a w***e is “instinctive” to you.

          1. Hlyssande*

            I can see how it is, if that’s how you were basically indoctrinated your entire life. It does actually happen in some incredibly conservative communities. Which is not okay at all, no way – but I can see how that would happen.

            OP, you need to take a serious step back and look at your thought process here. This is Not Okay.

            1. Elonia*

              Yep. Growing up, any blue-eyed, blonde-haired woman wearing red was a whore in my father’s eyes. So I carried that with me. “Blue-eyed, blonde-haired women only wear red if they’re whores.” It stuck for a LONG time. I didn’t even wear red lipstick (I am blonde with blue eyes) until about 10 years ago when I finally realized many of the things my dad said were a crock of shit.

              1. Vitriolic Vixen*

                You just reminded me of an early episode of “The Simpsons” where Marge is getting ready to go to the prom, and her mother is pinching her cheeks to give her color.

                Marge asks “Why can’t I just use Rouge?”

                And her ancient mom replies matter of factly: “Ladies Pinch. Whores wear Rouge.”

                Even if this wasn’t satire, and something like this was actually said, my experience is rare is the person running around public declaring it.

                Sorry your Dad told you such things growing up.

              2. Not So NewReader*

                For me it was the color black. I never understood why that rule went away for funerals, suddenly black was okay?

                But, yeah. I hear you. After I got married, I bought a pair of black jeans, (Could not afford them living on my own.) I made sure I was wearing those jeans if I knew my father was coming to visit, because I have that side of my personality that kicks.

                Remarkably, my father never said one word. He was always happy to see me. He had grown up beyond his former foolish self. It took me a while longer,but I grew, too and I stopped caring what color my pants were when he came to visit.

                But yeah, stupid rules that do not make sense and routinely blindsided me. I relate to this.

          3. MashaKasha*

            This exactly! How ingrained does this thinking need to be, and how many hundreds of times does one have to have said this in the past, in order to say it “instinctively”?

          4. Just Another Techie*

            So I was raised in the Bible Belt. I moved to a godless heathen coastal elite city, and while I am a churchgoer (and sunday school teacher!) my kin down south still see me as being a godless heathen. My family are sweet, kind, generous, funny, loving humans. . . who have utterly horrific (to me) ideas about women and sexuality. My sweet, kind, would never say any other kind of mean word to anyone, great aunt routinely refers to the other girls in her great-granddaughter’s school as “little whores” or “gonna grow up to be a whore if her momma don’t put a stop to that” etc etc. And when I respond with shock I’m accused of political correctness and god knows what other sins. It’s just so common in some parts of this country that people just don’t have that kneejerk visceral horrified reaction that I and many of the commenters here are having.

            1. Lora*

              Co-signed. Have had colleagues who moved to New England from the Bible Belt, and they felt extremely isolated and had trouble making friends. One woman I am acquainted with once complained to me that she has zero friends after moving here several months ago and attributed it to Yankees being unfriendly and cold.

              Um. No.

              1. Chalupa Batman*

                Would you mind telling a little more about why she has trouble/why she thinks she’s having trouble making friends (if you know more)? I’m not trying to derail, but I do think I and other commenters are having a lot of trouble wrapping our heads around how thinking like this gets so ingrained that it becomes instinctive like the OP described, and what the world looks like to people with that type of perspective.

                1. Lora*

                  Why she has trouble: sexist and anti-Semitic comments pop out of her mouth incessantly, with the occasional racism (“my daughter shouldn’t be learning Spanish, she’s not going to be a maid when she grows up!”) thrown in for good measure. Even on her best behavior, there’s a wish for the Lord to smite the terrible people who snubbed her at the PTA bake sale. She expressed to me once that she was disappointed none of the lesbians in New England had ever tried to convert her to lesbianism, because, you know, that’s what they do, and isn’t she pretty enough or what?

                  Why she thinks she has trouble: Yankees are cold, rude and unfriendly people who don’t welcome outsiders.

                  Her mother is apparently quite bigoted and raised her with these notions, and they were perpetuated in college in the sorority she belonged to.

                  Her husband is one of my colleagues. He often tries to introduce her to people so she can make new friends. It doesn’t work out, ever.

                  The worldview is very much that you are a reflection of your parents and therefore if you are terrible they are too, but….ehhhh I can’t really explain the views about women without making the OP sound like, extra-awful. There’s some mental gymnastics involved that require you to not think too deeply about the tautologies involved. It’s like this:
                  1. Sex before marriage is Sinful
                  2. (does Sinful Thing)
                  3. It’s OK though because everyone is a sinner and Jesus will forgive me
                  4. (does Sinful Thing again)
                  5. Look at those terrible people going around being sinful! And they aren’t even ashamed of it!
                  Repeat at step 1… Alternately, you can have for step 3 “(other sexual practice) isn’t really sex so therefore doesn’t count as sin”.

                  The best explanation I ever had was from a friend who became a psychologist: people who do (whatever) usually think that EVERYONE does that thing and just doesn’t talk about it, and anyone who tells them that the whatever is terrible is really being a hypocrite because they do it too. The person doesn’t realize how far they are from the norm, they think that whatever they are doing is like picking your nose or something, that nobody talks about it or does it openly but everyone does it. Which makes it harder to correct, because it’s so hard to convince the person that no, this is not a thing outside of your immediate family or friend group.

              2. Ramblin' Ma'am*

                As someone who’s always lived in the Northeast, and who’s not at all religious, I actually do agree that people up here can be “unfriendly and cold.” When I’ve visited cities in the Midwest, even if they’re also liberal environments, I’ve been shocked by how much more common it is to chat with strangers, make small talk, etc.

                1. Just Another Techie*

                  It all depends on what you mean by “unfriendly and cold” I guess. I grew up in the south and the people who were soooo happy to chat for hours at the grocery wouldn’t have pissed on me if I were on fire. My family didn’t exactly fit the prevailing notions of what “good” people were “supposed” to look like so we were pretty pointedly left on our own to cope with new babies and job losses and hospitalizations and all the other minor crises that happen in life. Whereas here in New England, yeah, there’s very little small talk, and people aren’t exactly extroverted, but we can count on each other, regardless of whether we fit the mold or not. We had a new person at our church who had to have an appendectomy maybe a month after he started coming here. Two months at the most. And half the church showed up to his hospital room and we had an organized calendar of who was bringing over casseroles for a whole month after his recovery. I literally cannot imagine that kind of tangible support for a stranger in my grandparents’ church in Georgia.

                2. TootsNYC*

                  I grew up in the Midwest and moved to NYC.

                  I find the “coldness” to be respect.

                  Us NYCers don’t push ourselves in where we’re not wanted or needed; we don’t assume a familiarity that isn’t previously established. Us Midwesterners frequently do those things.

                  (and yes, I know I just said “us” for both groups)

                3. MashaKasha*

                  I grew up in Eastern Europe, moved to the Midwest, and went through a two-year period recently in my life where I frequently visited NYC. If I could afford to move to NYC, I would in a heartbeat, because I think I fit in better there. Exactly for the reasons you said. I really really liked the people. But I would add that they’re not Yankees.

                  Another funny anecdote I just remembered about “unfriendly and cold”, a college roommate of mine was from the far South of the former Soviet Union. She once went to visit a mutual friend over a school break, who lived way up north. My roommate came back from her trip utterly shocked and told us, “the people up north are so unfriendly and aloof! Not like we are in the south. Where I’m from, the other person may hate your guts, but she’ll still give you a proper hug and a kiss when she meets you, like people are supposed to” – uh, no thanks, I’ll pass on this kind of friendliness.

            2. Guilt Tripped*

              +1

              Thank you. In some denominations you hear that word so frequently – especially in sermons and Bible study – that it can become an automatic phrase, especially if you learn to parrot it when you’re young, before you really understand what it means.

              That whole concept “we’re not raising her to be a whore” is like a constant background hum in some churches, and among competitively Christian parents. It’s almost like it’s more of a status marker than an insult.

              1. MashaKasha*

                Oof, scary. I had an ex who grew up in the deep South, and I have no problem believing you and the commenter above you. The ex had some scary stories. I’m still taken aback each time I hear exactly how bad it is. I can’t imagine growing up surrounded by a constant background hum of whore-shaming.

            3. Anonymouse*

              I was raised Mormon and am still a practicing Mormon, and grew up in Virginia (roughly falling into the Bible Belt) and I was always taught you don’t say those kinds of words!

              1. Just Another Techie*

                My momma’s family are Southern Baptists. Daddy’s family are Muslim. Hoo boy was there drama, according to family stories, when they got married.

                But as with all things I bet this varies significantly by denomination and geography. (And probably also social class and race too)

          5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            The instinctive thing doesn’t surprise me if OP grew up in a community where comments like this were common. That was certainly the cultural tableau among devout Christians, Catholics and Mormons at my high school—their mothers and grandmothers constantly talked about girls as “whores” and engaged in slut-shaming for teenage girls’ very innocuous and not at all sexual behavior.

            It was ugly and wrong, but if no one has ever pushed back on you for it, or if you never heard different growing up, I can imagine that you might grow up to reach your mid-20s and still have these gems buried in your subconscious.

            1. Jojo*

              I’m 30 years old, and still have a instinctive shame reaction when I leave the house in a skirt without hose on. Some things never go away!

            2. JB (not in Houston)*

              The OP’s comment was shocking to me, as is yours. I grew up in a conservative Christian household, and nobody ever referred to any woman as a whore. I never heard anyone’s parents or anyone at my church use that term either. Nobody was called any names for wanting to date. I thought the people around me were pretty conservative, but apparently they weren’t as bad (on this issue) as they could have been.

              1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                I think it’s difficult because folks who say these comments often refer to themselves as “devout” or “conservative,” but I’ve met just as many folks who identify that way who would never say the word “whore,” let alone what OP said. It’s a good reminder that even within self-identified communities, there can be a near-total lack of agreement on whether something is common.

                That said, I do think OP’s comment is shocking—as I noted upthread, I was shocked despite the fact that I grew up with girls who said things like what OP said (but certainly not once they went to college and had to interact with people who don’t agree with them or share their perspective). But most of all, it makes me sad that we still have so much work to do.

            3. TootsNYC*

              “still have these gems buried in your subconscious.”

              I suppose they might also be prompted closer to the surface by the topic of the conversation, and by the boss sort of verbally “leering” at the OP by speculating about her teenage “hotness” and dating.

            4. bridget*

              I know this thread is already full of “not all Christians,” but I grew up in the epicenter of Mormondom and was raised by incredibly devout parents who would NEVER use language like this, and I never heard anything like it from other adults in my life. I view a lot of what I was taught as sex-negative now, but this kind of horrible insult was not on the table. At most you would hear that someone was “not protecting her virtue” or “not making the right choices.” Even referring to someone “sleeping around” would be a little squeamish.

    16. MashaKasha*

      Indeed! My “WHAT?!?!” was heard across the cubicle farm.

      I was a nerdy kid and a late bloomer that did not start dating until college, so I did not take the comment personally in any way, but holy cow, this is wrong on just about every level I can think of.

      1. The Mayor of Llamatown*

        I was a nerdy kid and late bloomer. I worked retail in high school and had a coworker who expressed deep disappointment in me when he realized I wore makeup, because I was supposed to be a good girl. Luckily I was also incredibly mature for my age and realized how silly it was that he only had a problem with me wearing makeup after he found out I wore it – apparently I was so good at light application that he didn’t realize I was wearing makeup. And also that being a “good Christian girl” had nothing to do with makeup.

        1. LadyPhoenix*

          Ah yes, the “Women decieved me” because of the “natural look”.

          It’s like guiz don’t realize that make up has existed for well over a hundred years.

          Nowadays I’m either “natural” or “a unicorn barfed on me”. I haz no inbetween

          1. Candi*

            That’s just modern makeup. :p Makep as a thing has been around for thousands of years.

            And -shocking- the very prudish Victorians wore makeup! /sarcasm

    17. Daisy Mae*

      Holy macaroni, that was brutal. On so many levels. This office just sounds like a hot mess of personal opinions bouncing off the walls.

      Despite the fact that the boss is exhibiting some pretty gross behavior, the OP’s response was just so aggressive I can’t relate to this letter at all. To be fair, I’m not a Christian –
      so I’m not sure why the OP thought being raised a devout Christian would absolve her of such an awful response. When you’re an adult you have to take responsibility for your actions. Blaming her childhood upbringing for an error in judgment is basically like blaming her parents for the fact that she either called this man’s daughter a whore or called this man a terrible parent. There’s a level of immaturity here that needs to be schooled.

      2. LKW*

        I didn’t see it as blaming but as justifying – which is even worse: “It’s not my fault I’m a very judgmental person, I was raised to judge others!”

      3. MadGrad*

        Right? If the letter writer meant it purely about themselves and a statement of their upbringing, she would have said something like “my parents were super conservative – no boys for me!”. There is no way to include the word “whore” into this statement that is not intended to be a venomous judgement.

        1. Daisy Mae*

          Agreed with you both. Maybe I’m too far removed from being a 20-something, but there’s a level of unawareness that is staggering to me.

          1. MadGrad*

            I’m a twenty something, and I don’t get it either. However, I also live in sin with the boyfriend I picked up in high school right now and am presumably a raging, raging harlot, so maybe that’s why. :|

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This is what crossed my mind, “Well you could do what my parents did, they kept me in a locked room until I hit 21.” Maybe add, “my stupid parents” for clarity to show the sarcasm.

    19. Amber*

      Yeah my jaw dropped with OMG. OP, no matter who you’re talking about, using that word is never ok. Your boss might accept an apology but I don’t think he’ll ever forget that you said it.

    20. Just Another Techie*

      Same. I was expecting something along the lines of “I was an ugly ducking as a teen” or something. Good lord.

    21. Erin*

      My mouth literally fell open. Is it Christian to call other people whores whom you have never met?

      Well anyway. I don’t think you need to bring your Christianity or his into the discussion here. Just find some wording you feel comfortable with and apologize as soon as possible.

    26. j-nonymous*

      I’m not going to pile on, OP. A lot of people have already covered the issues with calling women or girls whores (Alison’s point is spot on). And anyway, I actually think this is (potentially) fixable.

      “I apologize for making the comment the other day about my parents not raising a whore. I grew up in a very conservative and restricted environment and I was not allowed to date. In fact, I was taught that girls who dated were immoral. I don’t believe that to be true anymore, but when you asked me about my teenage dating experience, it just instinctively came out. I certainly did not mean to insult your daughter or suggest there’s anything wrong with her for wanting to date, or with you in how you parent her. It was a terrible thing to say and I’m sorry.”

      Hopefully that will smooth things over enough so that your boss is no longer weird / standoffish toward you (but no so much that he goes back to inappropriately talking about his very attractive daughter and trying to rope you into those conversations).

      1. Amber T*

        The question is – does OP not believe that anymore? Based on the fact it took her hours to figure out what offended the boss and that the letter has an air of “how do I make him not mad at me” vs “how do I recover from this horrible thing I said,” I’m not convinced that’s the case. I hope I’m wrong. I think the apology you wrote can only work if she doesn’t believe that (notice how she said what she believes offended her boss is that she implied he raised a whore, not that she called his daughter a whore – a parenting issues vs… I don’t know how to describe it, but much worse).

        1. j-nonymous*

          I think realizing that what you said insults both the daughter and the boss implies at least *some* understanding that girls != whores just because they want to date.

          Look, I don’t condone what the OP said, but the lessons we’re ingrained in us at a young age are difficult to shake loose. I’m actually *impressed* it took the OP only a few hours to realize how her statement came across, to see that it insulted two people who did nothing to warrant censure, and to regret it. Compared to people who spend decades of their lives continuing to spout such nonsense? A few hours is miniscule comparatively. I’m also not put off by the OP’s wanting to figure out how to smooth things over with her boss. OP still has to work for this person, and most of us (OP included, I suspect) have to work to pay our bills and live. It’s an existential need that must be addressed.

        2. Elizabeth H.*

          Even if she doesn’t believe it, if she wants to keep her job, have as harmonious as possible relations with her boss, and get along etc. she can and should still say something like this. It’s not illegal to say an apology that you don’t truly believe in your heart. Even if she legit thinks her boss’s daughter is acting like a whore or whatever, the specific workplace advice to apologize in this way still stands.

      2. j-nonymous*

        Oops. I actually meant to make the original comment on the post and not a reply to another person’s comment. Sorry!

      3. Serin*

        Well, yes — if the OP can say this honestly, a response like “I am absolutely mortified — I opened my mouth and heard my grandmother’s voice come out! I had no idea I still had this poisonous stuff in my brain” is probably the only follow-up that would be at all appropriate.

        It’s exactly as though the OP had uttered some appalling racist or anti-semitic slur.

        The problem is, can she say it honestly? Can she really say, “I didn’t mean it and I don’t really believe it”? Or is she only going to be able to say, “I don’t like the sound of it and I’m worried about the consequences of it”?

        1. j-nonymous*

          So, the OP should wait until she’s perfected her remorse and completely worked through the (admittedly toxic) belief system she was raised in before apologizing? Come on. Apologies are a way to repair damaged bonds between people, not a punctuation mark to signal the end of contrition.

          1. Dweali*

            OP doesn’t have to quite be contrite but does need to realize (or be at the start of realizing) that line of thought is wrong. If OP doesn’t think they actually said anything wrong (outside of the my boss doesn’t like me now) then they would just be giving (at best) an insincere apology or (at worst) a non-apology and at that point a lot of people would wonder “why even bother”.

    30. AMG*

      I did too. OP, I can stick my foot in my mouth with the best of them, so I can say from experience that the sooner you apologize to your boss the better damage control you can do. Practice Alison’s phrasing and by very contrite.

    31. nutella fitzgerald*

      Same here. I was waiting for my Starbucks order and the barista actually turned around to see what happened.

    32. Marzipan*

      Not only did I gasp, I then literally didn’t breathe until the end of Alison’s advice!

    34. H.C.*

      I initially thought it was something like daughter’s fashion sense or manner of speaking when she came in office unannounced, but yeah…. WOW

    35. The Other Liz*

      All I can say, purity culture is toxic, and it runs DEEP. It can become ingrained in men and, as we see clearly in this example, women. But good news, Focus on the Family is coming back out with Brio magazine to indoctrinate the next generation!

      1. Lentils*

        God, I just full-body shuddered at the name Brio. I recently cleaned out my room at my parents’ house as a precursor to moving out and I could barely look at all my issues of Brio, they were so…alien to my current beliefs.

        1. Specialk9*

          Brio was so f-ing toxic. I still see that stuff ‘a girl’s worth is in her virginity’ sh#t when I visit my parents, and it makes me rage for days. There’s a reason why I converted to Reform Judaism. That’s one of the many reasons.

    37. Christie*

      I GASPED THE LARGEST OF GASPS this OP should write movies because I did NOT see that coming, even with the title of the post

  2. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Wow…

    Alison’s advice is spot-on. Please don’t use your religion as an excuse to belittle people.

    1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      This. Even intended as a statement of your family’s moral superiority, with no insult intended, it was kind of an ugly sentiment to express, and very much not in keeping with the humility I associate with those who’ve really internalized the messages of Christianity.

      2. SleepyMel*

        It doesn’t make Christianity look good at all and this is not what Jesus would do. Didn’t he in fact associate with so-called “whores”? Sorry I’m on a tangent

        1. OxfordComma*

          I think many a Christian (and I am one) could do with rereading the New Testament, but that’s just me.

        2. Little Missy*

          Yes, and not only that but in Matthew 1 where his Jewish lineage is enumerated, one of the five women mentioned is Rahab, who was a prostitute. Jesus only judged those who were hateful and hypocritical. He was kind to those who were in physical and/or spiritual pain.

    2. MuseumChick*

      Yes. This. There is really no appropriate context for what you said. None. At all.

      I want to second Alison’s advise to re-consider the thinking that brought you to this current situation. Please don’t insult/look down on women who have a different opinion on sex/dating/how woman dress/etc than you do.

    4. Pup Seal*

      Agreed. I’m a bit confused how religion plays as an excuse except for the no dating part. I read the letter twice, and there wasn’t any mention what his daughter normally wears. All we know she could be wearing jeans and t-shirts every day to school. All we know that she’s attractive, so I’m confused to how attractiveness=whore.

      1. Jesmlet*

        I think in OP’s mind, a teenager wanting to date = whore. Still, religious upbringing is no excuse for such an inappropriate comment.

      2. Hey Nonnie*

        There’s a whole subset of sexism where attractiveness = whore. It goes along with the whole bit about women’s value coming solely from their attractiveness (or lack thereof) to men.

        No REASONABLE person would think this way, but sexism/patriarchy is by definition not reasonable.

      3. Mb13*

        Hey there Pup Seal. Your comment about the 15 year old clothing rubbed me the wrong way. Just because someone dressed in revealing clothes it doesn’t make them a whore (or interested in sex, or anything else). It just means they are wearing sexy and reveling clothes. There are only one things that make someone a whore. Exchanging money for sex. And even then it’s still incredibly rude to call them a whore

        1. Anna*

          100% agree. There is no clothing a person can wear that justifies calling her a whore. Especially if she’s 15 years old. But even if she’s an adult sex worker, that’s just rude language to use, especially to describe someone that the other person in the conversation loves dearly. Since you haven’t yet figured out how to use the word, if at all, I’d suggest purging it from your vocabulary. I’d also suggest having a long, hard think about how your upbringing, including but not limited to your religion, may have instilled some nasty values in you.

        2. Kate*

          Mb13- OP said “I was raised in a devoutly Christian home in which provocative clothing and behavior was forbidden, and dating wasn’t even a consideration.” She didn’t, however, indicate that she has any idea how the daughter in question dresses, and doesn’t appear to ever have met the daughter. That stuck out to me, as well as to Pup Seal, apparently. To me, it seemed like the letter writer was assuming that the daughter was dressing provocatively- otherwise, why would she mention provocative clothing at all? And I agree with you that the daughter’s wardrobe choices don’t make her a whore and are none of OP’s business, but the fact that she appears to be jumping to conclusions about the daughter’s behavior/style of dress just goes on the pile of reasons why OP was outrageously out of line.

  3. Simplytea*

    Wowza. I would love an update for this one. Inappropriate on all sides! What would have been the best way to respond to the bosses’ comments in the first place? Something like, “Why do you think that?” or just blank stare?

    2. The Final Pam*

      I’d probably laugh it off / change the subject because I can’t think of any way to respond to that sincerely.

    3. Mike C.*

      I think no one would be surprised if I respond with, “directly confronting how offensive that comment is right then and there”. That sort of talk shouldn’t be tolerated anywhere and should be challenged by folks who are in the position to do so.

      1. Mike C.*

        Ugh, I got the two comments mixed up, I thought we were discussing the comment from the OP. I still think directness is appropriate but it’s a much more complicated situation.

      2. Naomi*

        Sure… when you’re in a position to do so. It’s understandable to be wary about calling out your boss, though, and in any case sometimes people are so shocked in the moment that they don’t know how to respond. (Not to let OP off the hook here, because what she said was not okay in any context. But if she had kept quiet I wouldn’t blame her for feeling too awkward to call it out.)

            1. Simplytea*

              Yes. I was talking about an appropriate response to the “I bet you had that problem!” line.

              1. Jeanne*

                I would want to say things like “No, I was too ugly.” or “No, I was too smart for them.”

              2. Not So NewReader*

                I am wondering if OP was trying to bail out of the conversation and in desperation latched on to whatever came to mind without further thought.

                It’s too bad she said what she said, because his remark could have been the focus of the problem. If a boss said that to me, I might be looking for a new boss.

                Oddly, OP, part of your reweaving from this whole episode might be to figure out how to answer remarks like this in a direct manner.

    4. Antilles*

      It really depends on context. If the boss doesn’t really have a history with it and said it as a (bad and lame) Dad Joke style (you know how it is, haha!), then you would probably be best just sort of shrugging it off with a simple “eh, not really” or just straight up ignoring it and redirecting the conversation.
      But if it’s part of a pattern or said in a creepy way or anything like that, you’d absolutely be justified sort of giving him a “what in the world?” blank stare.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I completely agree with this. I do think it’s weird and a bit creepy to fixate on a daughter’s attractiveness (strikes me as rather Joe Simpson-esque), but unless the boss has been creepy in the past, it sounds like he’s… being a lame dad.

        1. Naptime Enthusiast*

          If it were dad talking about his son’s attractiveness I wouldn’t find it weird, or if it were mom making these comments about her son or daughter it would be fine too. I understand where you’re coming from, but I do think there is a double standard with how parents are expected to talk about their kids.

        2. Lablizard*

          My dad is that kind of lame dad and it is awkward as hell. He always talks about how handsome my brothers are and how beautiful my sister and I are, and now that there are grandkids it has gotten even worse. We have been trying to get him to quit for years because none of us is all that (except maybe the grandkids), but the best we have gotten is for him not to do it around us.

          Awkward dad is going to awkward.

          1. MegaMoose, Esq*

            I don’t know, maybe awkward dad should get called on it if those comments are being tossed around in the workplace. Not like the OP did, but still.

            1. Lablizard*

              I think the bragging about how beautiful/handsome, smart, rich, and successful your kids are is the norm for our culture (and a number of others) and is not at all inappropriate in the workplace in my country. It is a form of social one-upping and probably a leftover from the days of arranged marriages.

              The awkward is how it makes us feel and how embarrassing it is when he does it in front of us or we get, “You must be Altay Bey’s beautiful daughter/handsome son! Are you married yet? I have a wonderful son/daughter you should meet.” when we visit his office.

              1. MegaMoose, Esq*

                I think it’s okay to draw a line between mentioning how beautiful a child is and sexualizing your teenager in discussion with your employees, though, and the boss seems to have crossed that line. And honestly, I don’t think it would hurt to work on getting rid of most (or all?) behavior described as a “leftover from the days of arranged marriages”.

                1. Cant*

                  My father did this, a lot. He was very focused on my looks. He made comments about my sexual appeal and general appearance to his friends, relatives, and to strangers.

                  He also abused me. He was indeed sexually attracted to me, and acted on it. He enjoyed the fact that sexualizing me to strangers made me unhappy and uncomfortable, and basically made me an “object” for everyone to gawk at but not listen to.

                  He was a monster. I’m sure not every father who does this to their kid is the same breed of monster – but some of them are. You don’t generally comment on how attractive someone is unless you find them attractive. Don’t be too quick to make excuses for them.

                2. Lablizard*

                  I’m trying not to be offended by your judgement of my country, culture, and family, but fear I am going to fail, so I am stepping out of this. All cultures have weird and awkward vestiges from their pasts, and in my culture and country, bragging on your kids’ accomplishments, including their attractiveness is one of them. How you leapt from “my kids are beautiful/handsome” to being sexualized, I am not sure. Sexualization is something you brought in, not me, not my father, and not my culture. Calling someone beautiful/handsome =/= sexualized

                3. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  I certainly did not mean to insult your country, culture, and family, Lablizard, so I apologize for that. I meant that the boss in the letter’s specific comments seem to be sexualizing his daughter, in particular discussing boys “fawning over her”.

                4. Not So NewReader*

                  I agree with you, Cant, I got really creeped out by the father’s comments. I hope OP sees your comment.

              2. Ted Mosby*

                I think that’s totally normal most places (at least normal enough that all it gets is an eye roll), but this seems more pointed and more of a fixation than the usual “my kids are so gorgeous!” Calling her a “perfect blonde” has some subtle sexuality to it that just calling your daughter beautiful does not.

            2. heatherskib*

              I almost feel like he was looking for advice. His daughter is interested in dating- how did OP’s parents handle it… and now he knows that OP’s parents ingrained such a deep shame of any typical teenaged behaviors that she thinks her behavior was mostly acceptable.

      2. Turtle Candle*

        Right, if my read on the boss was that it was a bad Dad Joke type thing, and we generally had a good rapport, I’d probably brush it off with some mild joke of my own. “Nah, in high school I was still holding out for Han Solo!” (It’s a weird and inappropriate comment, but I think most of us have experience of making a joke that falls flat in a way that we don’t anticipate until we hear our words out loud.)

        If it felt like part of a pattern, or more than just a misstep of a joke, that’s when I’d go for something more like “I don’t know how to respond to that” or “What?”

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      I think the boss is looking for some vague reassurance, along the lines of “Oh all teenage girls go boy-crazy for a while, totally normal, you are experiencing utter normality and don’t need to panic.” Especially as he’s saying this to someone who is not a parent of teenagers (or former teenagers) so he’s probably trying to get reassurance from someone he views as recently in his daughter’s shoes.

      Had I gotten this stuff in my 20s I think my response would have been “Mmm. Well. There it is. Huh.” It’s awkward, but probably not the sort of thing you can correct in your boss any more than detailed play-by-plays of his children’s weekend soccer games.

    6. Allison*

      In my shoes, I might have said I was really awkward and kind of an ugly duckling, and most of my classmates either ignored me or stayed away. I also may have called him out for being inappropriate, or if I couldn’t have done that in the moment, might have talked to HR after the fact.

      Since OP was probably very modest and not interested in dating at that age, maybe she could have said that, or jumped to “woah, inappropriate.” I can see snapping with something insulting like that out of defensiveness when you’re that taken aback by such a comment, but yeah, that’s really not an okay thing to say.

      1. Jeanne*

        Even as a quick kneejerk reaction, I think I would have just said No to the boss’s question. I wouldn’t have had a snappy comeback.

      1. Simplytea*

        I feel like in retrospect I’m always thinking–I should have said “X”. This will help. I, unfortunately, have several coworkers that make these type of “observations” (or similar comments).

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        That’s what I was going to suggest. I find blank/puzzled look, followed by a question, can be an effective way to make the other person realize how squirmy their comment was.

    8. The German Chick*

      Sometimes, when I don’t know how to answer, I simply state: “I don’t know how to respond to this.”

      1. Simplytea*

        Ooooh. I like that. “I don’t know how to respond ” and maybe squinting of the eyes. Interesting.

        BTW for everyone… it should have been boss’… boy that’s a strange one.

        1. fposte*

          As with most things language, there is no straight out “should have been.” Chicago actually requires the ‘s, for instance. (Apparently AP does unless the following word begins with an s, which is mad confusing.)

          1. Sylvia*

            AP rules are confusing, but they always favor using fewer characters. There’s usually a little bit of a reason in there somewhere. Like the month abbreviations, which shorten every month name over five characters.

            1. Drew*

              I do, too, but I’m in a workplace that’s using AP (and not for any good reason; it’s just what the EIC prefers) and I have to keep stifling my impulse to point at CMOS and say, “I don’t care why AP does it, it’s stupid and wrong!” (It is not actually stupid and wrong. I just get annoyed.)

              When I reach for Garner, you KNOW I’m serious.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Chicago Manual let’s you go either way when singular nouns end in an “s” and when the possessive plural could have the same construction. So it could be boss’ or boss’s. :)

          1. fposte*

            But the possessive plural of “boss” wouldn’t have the same construction–the plural is “bosses,” so by CMoS the possessive plural would be “bosses’.” The “same construction” rule would be reserved for something like “economics,” where the plural and singular have the same orthography.

            1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Fair enough, and apologies! I was thinking about how you don’t pronounce “bosses'” as “boss-es-es.” But it was a bad example, and from what I can tell, spelling the possessive singular as “boss’s” or “boss'” seems fine for most style guides.

              1. fposte*

                No need to apologize–this was a rabbit hole I dived down with great delight :-). Yes, pronunciation is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish.

      4. TootsNYC*

        Sometimes I think we should program little “subroutines” into our brains with these sorts of phrases. This is a good one.

        Perhaps the most useful subroutine is “I bet your pardon.”

        Because it buys you time, and it’s useful EVERYwhere, and it’s so easily shaded with:
        puzzlement, outrage, inquiry (for when, or as if you didn’t really hear), shockedness….etc.

    9. TheLazyB*

      I think other than standing there with my mouth hanging open for the next hour, the only reaction i could have had was “did you really just use the word whore?”.

    10. Tomato Frog*

      I once made some inappropriate generalization to my boss and she just said, in a sharp tone, “Hey now.” Worked very well on me, though I realize it would not work on the truly clueless.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have always liked “hey now”. It allows room for the two people to remain on good terms yet gets a point across. It’s like saying, “I am going to forget you just said that….”

    11. CM*

      The boss’s comment wasn’t necessarily inappropriate — in context it may have been creepy, but it could also be construed as just “you were a teenage girl once too.” So I think an appropriate response would be something generally empathizing, like, “It’s hard to know how to handle it when your kids want to start dating” or “Teenage problems are tricky, aren’t they? Don’t you miss when they were younger and their problems could be solved with a Band-Aid and a hug?”

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        “my boss was talking as usual about how his daughter is very attractive and wants to start dating. Then he paused, looked at me, and said ‘I bet you had that problem!'”

        In this context, I think you’re being a little bit overly generous to the boss.

        1. Lynxa*

          I don’t think “I bet you were very attractive and wanted to start dating when you were 15!” is an awful sentiment. Most 15 year olds DO want to start dating.

          1. Jessie the First (or second)*

            It’s the clearly implied “I bet you were attractive.” It is very, very, very uncomfortable when a boss starts talking to you about your attractiveness. (Of course, then OP saw his dollar and raised him a hundred)

            1. Ted Mosby*

              yea, 0% a justification but I’m sure she was a little creeped out and on guard about what kind of teenager she was.

              “I bet you were a sexy 15 year old” is like #2 on top 1,000 I never want any boss implying to me.

              1. Lynxa*

                I think “sexy” is reaching a bit. Maybe it’s because people where I’m from ROUTINELY talk about how beautiful their children are (even when they’re grown) but while saying “I bet you were very attractive too” (to other 15 year olds) is a little creepy, I don’t think we can say the meaning was “you were a sexy 15 year old”.

                1. Ted Mosby*

                  I 100% see your point. At the same time, he was telling her he bet she was attractive in the context of teen boys wanting to date her. Maybe reaching, but to me that’s still pretty far outside calling your own kid beautiful or cute. Boys will like you is a different thing.

                  My workplace has a very strict policy on this. You can’t even say “you look nice today,” only something like “that’s a nice dress” (huge bureaucracy prone to law suits and very, very famous) so I’m probably extra cautions. Granted, I told my girl friends at work that they looked great all the time, but when crossing gender lines, people followed the rule.

        2. TL -*

          I wonder – I think the quotes the OP has provided are not great, but I also am wondering how much of her read of his behavior is coming from her clearly problematic perspective.

          The quotes are not great (and, heck, if the OP hadn’t included the whore part, I’d be more inclined to be worried) but there is the possibility that the dad has a knock-out gorgeous daughter and he’s trying to navigate that as a parent. It would be hard to ignore it if you really did have a model-esque daughter, especially if the whole world is treating her like an exceptionally beautiful person.

        3. Merp*

          I think it’s worth noting though that the only report we have of this boss’ inappropriateness level/degree is the OP, and frankly I don’t trust the judgment of someone who would blithely call the child of her boss a whore to his face. I’m sure too, that I’m not alone in having serious concerns about the OP’s judgment; and that, I think, really illustrates just how burned this bridge is. Burned, razed to the ground, earth salted, and then irradiated for good measure.

    12. BookishMiss*

      Had a boss do that. Stared at him silently with one eyebrow ever so slightly lifted until he changed the topic. Essentially, I politely let him stew in the Weird until it overwhelmed him and he had to move on.

    13. Genny*

      My response to the boss’s comment would probably have been something like “well, that makes me uncomfortable.” said with a laugh and a change of conversation (or exiting the conversation entirely).

    15. Anna*

      I’d probably say something like, “I bet it’s tough for a child that young to receive a lot of romantic or sexual attention that she might not be ready for emotionally. Have you asked her how she feels about some of the attention she gets? It sounds like you have a really close family, so I hope she feels able to talk with you and other adults who love her about how she’s feeling, so that you can help her figure out how to get through a time in her life where she may need a lot of advice. But with love and support from people who love her, I have no doubt that she’ll grow up into a confident, happy woman able to handle anything life throws her way.”

      Basically, I’d want to point out that the person he’s sexualizing is a child, and that she has her own feelings about all of this that might be complicated and that she might want or need help with, and that having adult men (including him!) talk about how sexy she is likely makes that a lot harder. I’d also want to, to some extent, validate some of his own feelings, while reminding him that the focus should be on how she feels about things, and on helping her find her own voice about it. And finally, I’d want to subtly introduce the idea that it’s important for her to have some agency in the situation so that as she grows up, she’ll learn how to handle things herself. No idea if any of that would work, but I think that’s what I’d try to do.

  4. CaliCali*

    I was also raised devoutly Christian. But this kind of thinking has nothing to do with a belief in Christ and everything to do with a social construct wherein women are “responsible” for any positive or negative attention they receive from men. You need to apologize first, and then you need to start unpacking your thinking about why your first reaction re: male attention is about the actions of the woman.

    1. Manders*

      Well said. I wasn’t raised Christian, but many women in my area were raised with these attitudes about sexuality. It does take time to unlearn those reflexive responses, but it’s worth it.

      (Also: it’s just a good idea to eliminate “whore” from your vocabulary, period. There was a discussion here a few weeks ago about how swearing is changing, and “whore” is one of those words that perhaps was mild once but is now considered a nasty slur.)

      1. MuseumChick*

        I second Manders. Remove “whore” and other such words (slut etc) from your vocabulary. I just recently heard that “prostitute” isn’t even that ok. Rather, woman who make their living that way prefer “sex worker” or so I’ve heard.

        Names like “whore” and “slut” are used to dehumanize woman who have the audacity to enjoy and engage in sexual activity outside of the dominate judo-christian moral culture. It absolutely find for you to decided for yourself that not engaging in sex outside of marriage, and dressing very “modestly” (in quotations because that can have a lot of different meanings), but dehumanizing those who choose differently is very much not ok.

        1. Hannah*

          Ha, “judo-christian.” I know it was just a typo on Judeo-Christian, but now I can’t stop thinking about judo Christians rushing in to throw down to the mat the belief that “whore” is an appropriate word to describe, well, really anyone at all!

          2. Manders*

            I’m giggling extra hard about this because I know there’s a history of very conservative churches being wary of East Asian martial arts, especially ones like judo where many dojos meditate as part of practice.

            Hopefully, this will be the start of some serious self-reflection for the OP, and she’ll come out the other side more open minded about the way other people live their lives. Some churches really do go overboard with telling people to judge others for wearing the wrong thing or exercising the wrong way or even thinking about the wrong subjects.

          3. heatherskib*

            Actually, given my advice for parents of girls includes teaching girls martial arts… this kinda fits!

        2. Kalkin*

          Yep, “sex worker” is the preferred verbiage, at least based on all the sex workers I’ve read who’ve posted things about it. It’s partly because even seemingly neutral-ish words like “prostitute” have acquired such a negative connotation, but even more because they want to emphasize that sex work is work. Whether you’re giving lap dances, doing cam shows, getting paid for phone sex, tying people up, or actually sharing bodily fluids with them, it takes a ton of physical, mental, and emotional energy. It’s certainly more draining than a lot of white-collar jobs, especially when you factor in that people — including, sometimes, the very clients you’ve just been serving — are quick to dismiss it as not only easy but also reflective of your poor moral character.

          2. Turtle Candle*

            As someone who dutifully sang “Drop Kick Me, Jesus, Through the Goalposts of Life” at summer camp, I am not surprised but I am delighted.

        4. birb*

          I want to briefly comment on “Judeo-Christian” in a non-joke way, and suggest using “Abrahamic” instead. A lot of Jews and Muslims really dislike “Judeo-Christian,” and I read it as an announcement that the speaker is either uninformed or significantly more politically conservative than I am.

          a) Judaism isn’t a prequel or prototype model of Christianity. It is its own group of denominations, traditions, beliefs, etc., many of which are complicated and very different from Christianity. The opinion that Christian things can simply be renamed “Judeo-Christian” and magically include Jews seems to be shared by a lot of the Christian right-wing and parts of the right-leaning Jewish community in the US, which is a small, older minority of the American Jewish community.

          b) The term “Judeo-Christian'” also suggests that Jews and Christians have a shared spiritual tradition that no other faiths share. People who sincerely believe this tend to think Islam is bad and scary and totally unlike Christianity or Judaism (it’s not).

          1. SLR*

            Sorry, but this is distinctly not true.
            A) The ‘Judeo-Christian’ moniker is totally appropriate as there would be zero Christians without this one Jewish guy called Jesus. Many Christian rituals are directly related to Jewish rituals and traditions (and many pagan too, but that’s a different part of the history).
            B) It may be your opinion that this is an exclusive type name but it’s accurate. While yes all 3 are Abrahamic there is no Islamic tradition in Christianity; there is no direct root to Islam as there is to Judaism. A quick google search asking “how does Christianity have its roots in Judaism” brought over 7 million results to the contrary of your above statement.
            -Signed a religious studies minor eons ago

            1. birb*

              This comment reads as offensive to me, as a Jewish person.

              You’re still deciding how to talk about which traditions based on how related to Christianity they are, like that’s the only real or important faith. This is gross, especially seeing how there are fewer of us than Christians in no small part because of how many of us have been killed, expelled, or forcibly converted by Christians for thousands of years. Cut it out.

              While it is true that Judaism as a whole predated Christianity, the idea that Judaism was “superseded” or replaced by Christianity is an old antisemitic trope. Jewish traditions and ideas weren’t trapped in amber when Christ died. We’ve been doing our own things, creating and dissolving denominations and having our own ideas and adjusting our rituals for roughly two thousand years since Christianity became its own thing.

              While it is true that some branches of Christianity insist Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common with Islam, this is not grounded in reality. We have shared holy books, we have shared traditions, we have shared important religious figures. Christianity could not have come from Islam because Islam post-dates it and was significantly influenced by Christianity, obviously.

              1. SLR*

                No where did I state Christianity supercedes anything​. I may have been snarky, but my point stands. The shared holy books are Old Testament, for a Christian while it’s important to know OT, it is not nearly as important as the New Testament. Judaism and Islam regard him as a prophet I am well aware. In my experience, Christians look the OT as a way to understand Jesus and where he was coming from. Some sects identify with it more than others.
                I’m not sure what was offensive about pointing out that Jesus was Jewish. If not for his death and resurrection there would be no Christ. Hence no Christians. There are traditions in Catholicism (one of the 1st & longest lasting established versions) which can be pretty directly linked to Jewish traditions and rituals. I’m not understanding what’s made you upset. I never said that after Christianity became a thing Judaism remained stagnant. That is quite obviously not true.
                Saying “Judeo-Christian” is long accepted in academia as well.

      2. Kombucha Lamp*

        I’ll admit, I was one of those girls in high school who called out to her best friends, “hey slut!” It wasn’t until a good friend of mine revealed to me she is a sex worker. She showed me how her work is different than what I imagined, plus it made an unknown world to me a little bit more familiar because I had a face and a name to attach it to.

        I think OP’s best way to navigate through this experience is to learn why what she said was wrong (because of the word choice plus the context of the comment), move on, and learn to react appropriately in future situations. I think a sincere apology would be appreciated, but I’m afraid that her relationship with her boss is kinda done. She insulted his parenting and his daughter.

        1. Kombucha Lamp*

          Clarification: Friend began work as a sex worker well after the legal age. No high school sex workers here!

        2. Lee*

          “Sluts” don’t get paid for intercourse, so the paid “sex worker” occupation has nothing to do with an individual that is promiscuous.
          I also like the idea of normalizing a word that is supposed to be shameful, so it loses the power it once over shaming females.

      3. Tempest*

        And c u next Tuesday as well please. It’s such a terrible word that, contrary to what someone told me about women ‘taking it back’, it will always be a word thrown at women to make them diminutive and there is no amount of using it to take it back that will remove that horrible connotation from it. How about just trying to lift other women up instead of putting down a 15 year old girl for her normal interests?

        I was dating at 14 and trust me I was not a whore. And dating a few boys at that age wouldn’t make me or her one either. It’s actually pretty normal.

        2. Blue Anne*

          I agree about that word. Why can’t we just say vagina? Why can’t we reclaim that? Even just saying vagina makes some people uncomfortable, which there’s really no excuse for.

          I lived in Scotland for about a decade… they have one I really hated too, “gash”. Not only is it a really evocatively violent image, but it’s used explicitly to mean something bad, like “the show was total gash” instead of “the show was total crap”.

          Urgh. Words.

          1. Tempest*

            Yeah, I now live in the UK where c u next Tuesday is a lot more common than certainly the part of North American I’m originally from, but I still hate that word. It’s not a sexy word, which is where the person I was talking to about taking it back was coming from. It’s an insult, a vulgar one at that. It says you are summed up by your genitals – that is all you’re worth and that isn’t much.

            I think whore is similar. It says if you’ve given away your ‘purity’ you’ve given away your worth, like once you have sex with a man if you don’t marry him, you’re now worthless. Like every new man you give that piece of yourself to takes another little bit of your worth away until you’re worthless, all because you enjoyed sex. If the parents of this girl have taught her about taking care of herself and being safe and not to let anyone pressure her for anything she doesn’t want, then at 15, she’s pretty much able to make her own decisions and nothing she decides will make her a whore, that’s for certain. Neither does wearing a short skirt, or makeup, or any of the things that might have been used against girls in strict churches.

          2. Hrovitnir*

            Oh god, “gash” is the worst. *shudder* I actually have a problem in that I really like the word c*** and am failing at removing it from my vocabulary – whereas I have got less and less comfortable with the word b****. Perhaps because it has become so commonly used, it feels like it’s just so easily used to attack women with some sort of deniability to claim it’s not a big deal.

            In NZ I would say c*** is more like the UK – you would potentially call a man a “good c***”, stuff like that. This is only in the last few decades though, and while I quite like it for vagina – I use both words! – I really want to stop using it as an insult. :/

            1. Tempest*

              I have heard men called c-u-*-t here, but I’ve never heard it affectionately. It has always been like the worst insult you can call them. Stupid cu*t etc. Which is equating a vagina with the most worthless, stupid thing you can be. Like calling someone balking at doing something a pussy because they don’t want to. It’s like being the female genitals is the worst thing you could be, it makes you weak, stupid and irrationally afraid. I would not like to hear my vagina called a cu*t. To me it’s a word that only works if the woman is being degraded sexually. If that works for consenting couples in their kink that’s fine, but it would not work for me. If it works for you, it’s your vagina so you get to call it whatever you like :) I will always associate it with hearing people saying you stupid cu*t ect and I guess in writing smutty erotic fiction I would default to pussy, but I’m also kind of feeling that’s not much better though I can’t put my finger on why.

              These are the kinds of things I never used to think about but I’ve become more aware of what effects other people as I’ve got older. I never used to think twice about using retard as an insult when I was in high school but now I think that’s terrible and no matter that I don’t mean to insult people with mental disabilities when I use it that way, that’s the effect it has, intended or not, so I’ll not use it that way again.

              I don’t know what has to go through your head to call a 15 year old girl getting interested in boys a whore, but I know the OP needs to reflect on that the way I did with calling people ‘retard’ and find a reason to stop using that word in that capacity. But I think you need to understand how that hurts people to find the reason, not just be afraid you’ve mortally insulted your boss and don’t know how to come back from it, because the tone of the letter is more how do I fix things with my boss, not how do I make it clear I can’t believe I said that let alone really think that.

              1. Chinook*

                My group of classmates are probably the only ones to use c**t affectionately until a shocked teacher just told us to never say it again (but never explained why).

                It was a shame because how else do you shorten the name “Cunnigham”?

            2. Marisol*

              I like the c word too. The hard consonants give it a powerful sound, unlike p*ssy which sounds weak to me. I am ambivalent about b*tch, and like you, detest gash. A gash is a wound and to imply that my healthy sex organs are damaged is appalling. Since we have “dick” and “asshole” as an insult, c*nt doesn’t seem particularly sexist to me.

      4. Miss Betty*

        I’m not sure “whore” was ever mild. When the movie “Whore” was in the theater (1991), one of our several local theaters – the only one who showed it, iirc – wouldn’t put the full name on the marquee. It was something like “W—e”, like you’d see in a very old novel. This was in a small city – with a famous university – in the midwest. In fact, probably the only place you’d hear the word would be in many churches – the Bible does use the word a lot, at least in the King James version – and in the same context that OP used it. I’m going to guess she was raised in an extremely conservative, fundamentalist church and that way of thinking was instilled in her from the day she was born. I’d even bet she’s heard her parents state that they were glad they didn’t raise their daughter(s) to be whores. It doesn’t excuse her and she needs to learn to think differently. It’s a horrible thing to say to or about someone and also probably a big hurdle for OP to get over. I hope this incident was the push she needed and she never talks like that about another person again.

        1. Jeanne*

          I have to agree that she had heard that statement often for it to roll off her tongue that quickly. When the language is instilled from an early age, it is easier to say without thinking. (I am not saying that absolves her, just context.)

      5. TootsNYC*

        I’m not so sure that “whore” was *ever* mild. Nor was it ever work-appropriate.

        It wasn’t mild in the phrase “the whore of Babylon.”

    2. Parenthetically*

      Yep, this.

      I’d also encourage a closer look at why OP thinks even using the word “whore” is ever, ever acceptable.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Or Game of Thrones, or Hamilton.

          I can’t recall saying it when I wasn’t either joking (and you have to know your audience like whoa) or quoting fiction or both.

        2. Marillenbaum*

          Or as compliments. If I’m talking to my best friend and mention hooking up with someone, the response is typically along the lines of “You are such a whore. I’m so proud of you!” Now, I fully recognize that this is not something that would work in other relationships, but given the length of our friendship and the ways in which she supported me leaving my super-conservative religious upbringing, it’s clearly meant (and taken) as a loving, affirming gesture.

        3. Emi.*

          But then someone else is morally obligated to say “Girls, you have got to stop calling each other sluts and whores! It just makes it okay for guys to call you sluts and whores.”

      2. KaraLynn*

        It’s a word; it has a meaning. People are going to use words – even ones you may not like.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Just because a word exists and has a meaning doesn’t mean it’s a wise idea to use it willy nilly.

          1. KaraLynn*

            Agreed. But the OP was using it very strategically. She used it accurately for the meaning it had for her.

            2. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Accuracy isn’t really the issue here, though. It was an inappropriate word to use in the workplace in this context certainly, possibly in any context.

              1. KaraLynn*

                The comment I was responding to said, “I’d also encourage a closer look at why OP thinks even using the word “whore” is ever, ever acceptable.”

                My point is – it’s a word. It has meaning. Therefore, people will use it at some point.

                I agree it’s inappropriate in the workplace (most of them, at least) but the person I was responding to was saying the word should never be used. I don’t agree.

                1. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  I’m still not really following the logic here – yes, it is a word with a meaning and yes, people will use it. Those two things don’t mean that people shouldn’t be criticized for using it. Outside of a historical context or being the person in charge of the “W” section of the dictionary, I’m not thinking or or seeing any examples of a use for it *other* than as a slur, and the use of slurs should rightly be condemned.

                2. Parenthetically*

                  And you’re coming across as defending her. Of course she has the right to use any word she chooses in a place with free speech. But that in no way justifies her choice of that word or the acceptability of that word in polite company, nor her thought process in deploying it against teenagers.

                  No one in this thread is being fragile or delicate about language in suggesting to OP that she do some introspection about why she thinks it’s ok to call a teenager a whore.

                3. L Dub*

                  Maybe now is a good place to insert the standard discussion about “just because you can doesn’t mean you should.”

                4. KaraLynn*

                  since I can’t thread anymore:

                  MegaMoose – Slurs have a purpose, just like any other word. Saying that people can’t or shouldn’t use any word, even a slur, is censorship. I’m against censorship.

                  Parenthetically – I’m not worried about how I’m coming across, especially since I’m being explicit that I don’t believe a word should be banned. The person I responded to said that word should never be used. I’m not trying to justify the OP’s or anyone’s right to use or not use the word in this specific situation. Again, I’m responding to a person who declared that a word should never be used in any instance. Try to focus on that one thought and nothing else and my point should be really clear.

                6. MegaMoose, Esq*

                  Saying that people can’t or shouldn’t use any word, even a slur, is in absolutely no way censorship. You’re conflating the right to be free from government oppression with the right to be free from criticism.

                7. Parenthetically*

                  KaraLynn, you responded to me. I did not say that the word should never be used (and even if I did, what am I, the word police? I have no power to stop its use, more’s the pity), I asked OP to take a look at her attitudes about why she thought it was acceptable to use that word. If you’re going to keep pushing back, at least push back against what I am actually saying.

                8. Jessie the First (or second)*

                  KaraLynn, you seem really to be conflating entirely different ideas.

                  You have the right to use any word at all that you want. It is your legal right. GO ahead. Use All The Words.

                  You will be harshly criticized for using some of those words, because some of those words are rude, obnoxious, aggressive, hostile, misogynist (like, say, “whore,” which is all of those things). If you use a word like that, some people will decide they do not like you and do not want to be around you because of what your use of that word says about you. If you say it at work, you might be fired, because your boss may decide that you lack professional judgment and decency.

                  None of that is about censorship. No word has been banned. You are free to yell it out your window at the top of your lungs if you want to.

                  We are free to think you are a pretty horrible person if you do that.

                  People using “should” on this thread is about what people ought to do in a polite, decent society if they want to be considered decent people. Thinking some words are not compatible with decency is not censorship. You can still say them – most people simply won’t think you are a decent human being.

                9. KaraLynn*

                  Parenthetically – you said it’s never acceptable. I argued against the idea that a word that exists should never be spoken by anyone, ever. You’re certainly not the word police and my arguments against your statement are meant to reinforce that.

                  You seem to be confused on what you said yourself, and also unsure of whether or not you’re defending the idea – “I’d also encourage a closer look at why OP thinks even using the word ‘whore’ is ever, ever acceptable.” vs. “I did not say that the word should never be used (and even if I did, what am I, the word police?)” which makes the ability to argue against you rather pointless.

            3. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              Uh, no. It is never appropriate to refer to your coworkers’ children, or your boss’ children, as “whores.” Manders is right—this is a pejorative word that borders on a swear word in some workplaces, and it should not be part of professional business communication no matter how “accurate” you or OP thought it was.

              (And it’s not an accurate use of the word. Words have changing meanings, but “whore” does not mean anything other than its dictionary definition.)

                1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

                  I still disagree with you. And I think you’re making an argument against a position that no one has taken.

                2. Misc*

                  There’s a difference between ‘allowed’ and ‘appropriate’. People here are saying it’s never the latter, you’re arguing over the former.

              2. Julia*

                I just read “it is never appropriate to refer to your co-workers as children” and nodded along. I should really get more sleep.

      3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        And, like….man. Wow. That’s not even one of those words that people use as a joke. My wife can pick up her phone when it’s her best friend and go “Hey betch.” But whore? That’s a word that’s got some serious teeth.

        1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          I mean, I’ll say it in jest about myself (“I’m such an attention whore”) but then again, I am talking about myself. My sister has had many casual and serious relationships; one time someone made a comment about her being a bit of a whore and I absolutely ripped them a new one. It’s not a word you say lightly about someone else, that’s for sure.

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            Yeah, “attention whore” is one I forgot about, you’re right.

            1. MegaMoose, Esq*

              Huh, I forgot about that expression too. It seems to have been pretty neutralized in that particular expression, but my judgment could be off.

              1. mollywobbles*

                I have heard it, but I’m uncomfortable every time, and I wish people wouldn’t use it.

        2. TL -*

          I use it as a joke with some of my female friends. Not all, because some of my friends wouldn’t find it funny.
          But I won’t use it in front of my male friends (or my male person, either) to refer to any woman, even if it’s a context where I would normally make a joke.

    3. CaliCali*

      And for what it’s worth: while raised devoutly, I was a conventionally attractive girl who did get some attention from boys, AND I was paying attention to the boys…because I was a teenager, and as Alison says, that’s a normal thing for teenagers to do. I wasn’t trying to entice them with my feminine wiles, but I certainly wasn’t rebuffing the attention that I wanted. The way you were raised seems to indicate that the latter is the only appropriate action. That’s an attitude that won’t get you far in the secular world or the Christian world, considering the wildly varying viewpoints within Christianity about it.

    4. Mazzy*

      Yeah I’m very Christian and I don’t see the connection between someone being happy to see their kids grow up, and i don’t get where your insult came from because he isn’t forcing his daughter to have sex. All she is doing is dating – on her own free will

      Your insult would only make sense in limited circumstances such as someone dressing their kid provocatively from a young age or supporting them getting pregnant in high school. But your boss? I’m not seeing it from the letter

        1. HisGirlFriday*

          This! Please also don’t slander parents who choose to support a daughter who got pregnant (or a son who got someone pregnant) in high school. That may not have been the parents’ hope for their child, but supporting a child through the consequences of an ill-thought-out decision is not a reason to insult the parents or the child.

          1. Detective Amy Santiago*

            Exactly. My mother was a teenager when I was born and my grandparents were incredibly supportive. It wasn’t what anyone planned, but they made it work and I think I turned out pretty well.

            1. Jen G*

              I read Mazzy’ s comment as supporting supporting a child that is *actively planning* to get pregnant in high school. I think we can all agree that would be a bit crazy. If I misinterpreted, then of course the rest of you are absolutely right.

              1. MegaMoose, Esq*

                But even in that situation, I would think that family could use guidance and support, not slurs.

            1. The Other Liz*

              My mom: Hey honey what’s new?
              My (adult, parent of 7) brother: You wouldn’t believe me if I told you.
              My mom: Ok, who’s pregnant.

          3. all aboard the anon train*

            Not to mention, so many girls (or boys) DON’T get support from their parents, so hating on parents who do support their kids seems counterproductive and pretty awful.

          4. Jadelyn*

            Seriously – what would they prefer, that said parents kick the child out to have their baby in a homeless shelter or something? I fail to see how that’s a better option.

            1. Elonia*

              My father told a family friend who was visiting when I was about 12 that if I ever got pregnant, they would kick me out and raise the baby themselves.

              I was 12.

        2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Particularly when, as a country, we insist on the least productive strategies to prevent teen pregnancy, and demand the most sex-negative form of sex education. We all bear responsibility for teen pregnancy.

      2. Oryx*

        1) You need to walk back that getting pregnant in high school comment.

        2) Calling someone a “whore” is never, EVER appropriate. There are no “limited circumstances” for that.

        1. Mazzy*

          Excuse me? I don’t need to walk back anything everyone is piling on the OP so I was trying to come up with some situations where the comment would at least make some sort of sense or logic. and while I clearly referenced a family that actively support teenage pregnancy by not providing any other role model everyone is commenting on a family that has a accidental teenage birth despite the parents best efforts which is not what I referenced so why would I need to walk that back?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Because calling pregnant teenagers “whores,” regardless of their family’s stance on it, is horrible for the same reasons that what the OP said was horrible. Let’s drop this please.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            Mazzy, what you wrote about teen pregnancy was wrong, and it was ugly.

            It’s not right to refer to teenagers who become pregnant as “whores” or to say they’re “supporting” teen pregnancy or raising “future whores” because those mothers failed to “provid[e] any other role model.” It’s not only deeply offensive, it’s inaccurate. It is never ok to call someone (including teen mothers!) a “whore” or otherwise denigrate their child-rearing.

          4. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            “I was trying to come up with some situations where the comment would at least make some sort of sense or logic.”

            And you came up with teen pregnancy, which was wildly insulting and off base.

      3. Parenthetically*

        Dressing a kid provocatively from a young age doesn’t make that kid a “whore” — ugh, I shudder even to type it. And by “supporting them getting pregnant in high school” I seeeeeriously hope you mean “encouraging them to get pregnant in high school” because I can’t imagine a decent human being thinking it’s bad to offer support to a person in a difficult situation.

      5. B*

        That insult does not make sense in any set of circumstances, especially the ones you described. It is just perpetuating the sexist myth that women are to blame for everything.

      6. Snarkus Aurelius*

        That insult makes no sense whatsoever in any context. Please don’t reinforce sexist attitudes towards women while giving men a free pass. There’s enough of that already in this world.

      7. MadGrad*

        On top of other comments, dressing your young kid a certain way has nothing to do with her or her choices – no reason to judge her for it!

      9. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        You honestly think that calling a young girl a whore in any circumstances or context is compatible with being “very Christian?” Seriously now?

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Removed because this is going to take us way off-topic.

      10. Kaybee*

        My mother got pregnant in high school, and the only reason I had food or clothes or a place to live was because people “supported” her. If you meant “supporting them getting pregnant in high school” to mean *encouraging* a minor to get pregnant, the word for that is abuse. Either way, that insult doesn’t seem very Christian to me.

      11. MissGirl*

        I think Mazzy meant supporting as encouraging or pushing a teen to get pregnant. I don’t think he meant it’s wrong to support a teen who is pregnant. There are some families, sadly, who push their teens to become pregnant. I know one doctor who had a mother relieved when her daughter got pregnant at 17 because they were starting to wonder what was wrong with her.

        That said, there’s no reason ever for the language the OP used and it’s shocking she doesn’t realize how over the line this is. Apologize, grovel and make this right.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I don’t think that’s what he meant, because he refers to “failing to provide any other role model.” That’s not about actively encouraging teen girls to get pregnant (which would be a form of abuse in most states), it’s about shaming teen mothers and then blaming them for a system that does not support young women or foster access and the ability to make safe sex choices.

      12. RKB*

        In zero circumstances is it okay for an adult to refer to a teenage girl as a whore. End of story. There’s no way to justify that. I don’t care what the teenager does – it is NOT okay for adults to remark on the sexuality or lack thereof of a teenage girl. GIRL. Not woman, GIRL.

    5. Your Weird Uncle*

      Well said!

      It can be so difficult when we are learning to be individuals completely independent of our parents and the environment in which we were raised, especially when it comes to the realization of just how much we might have internalized. OP, I think you should use this as a starting point to start the examination of where your beliefs are coming from, and just how much of those beliefs you really want to be carrying through your life.

    6. Amadeo*

      Yeah. The boss’s fixation on his daughter and how beautiful she is and how she’s having to beat the boys away with a stick and so on and so forth is weird and creepy, but I am also devoutly Christian and I can’t say that any sort of comment has ever come out of my mouth about anybody. Expressing disapproval when your opinion is requested is one thing, being bald-faced insulting out of the blue is another.

      OP, try Alison’s script and apologize to your boss forthwith! And watch your language in the future. Not sure how to handle any further gushing from your boss about his daughter, but you may also not have that problem for a while. If it comes up again, I’d suggest just listening politely, offering a non-committal response if one seems to be required and moving on from the conversation as fast as possible.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I’m reading the boss’s comments as he’s very proud of his daughter but also a bit disconcerted that he sees she is becoming a person who is attractive to other males–i.e., no longer a little girl. I don’t see a gross thing here so much as a father’s “OMG what do I do about all these boys” thing.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          Gross or not, it is in no way something I want to hear out of my boss’s mouth! Talk to your pastor/men’s group/grocery clerk about it, not your employees!

        2. Observer*

          I might have seen it that way – till he made that comment to the OP.

          But, it still doesn’t excuse either calling the kid a whore, nor telling the boss that he’s doing a terrible job at raising his kid.

        3. Amadeo*

          I suppose that’s also possible, but I can’t say it wouldn’t still weird me out. I think the delivery would matter, and that’s a difficult thing to convey in a written letter. Like, the difference between slightly nervous babbling Falling mentioned below and the ‘thumbs in suspenders’ boasting. I mean, I still wouldn’t be interested in hearing it and would change the subject as fast as I could, but one would make me more uncomfortable than the other.

        4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I think the comment is closer to a Certain Politician’s comments about his model daughter. To be fair, Jessica Simpson’s father also made the same creepy comments. It has to do with men who value women by their appearances and think that the attractiveness of their offspring reflects positively on them.

        5. JB (not in Houston)*

          From the OP’s letter, it seems he spends a fair amount of time talking about how attractive she is, so I have to disagree with your reading of his comments.

        6. Akcipitrokulo*

          That’s pretty much how I read it – didn’t see it as creepy, but ymmv and it all depends on HOW he said it as well.

        7. Not So NewReader*

          I think we look at it through our own experiences. I remember my father saying to me, “I find out you are using this guy, I am going to break every bone in your body.”

          In that moment, I realized that my father thought most women were trashy. That is where his remark came from. I think that OP’s boss thinks (pretty) women are trashy and that is why the constant running commentary.

          For me, I learned to blow off my father’s random remarks. I could just walk out of the room and my life would go on no matter. However, it’s tougher when a boss appears to be allowing too much of his own private thoughts to show. The bosses hold our paychecks in their hands.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        I suspect the boss is uncomfortable with the transition from Little Girl to Person For Whom People Feel Desire, and this is coming out through babbling.

        Like, it’s not great, but with the stuff in the letter it’s something a peer might address with him, and a subordinate would probably need to stick to the vaguely puzzled “Mm. Well. There it is.”

          1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

            It’s more of a spectrum. All dads are awkward. Some just tell jokes that make their children’s eyes roll like a slot machine, and they’re still basically functional; some are so awkward that they give sort of a Donald and Ivanka impression.

    7. Lizzle*

      Yeah. I…that’s a really strongly-worded response for it to be instinctive. Why would you think that wanting to go on a date makes a teenage girl a whore? And why in the world would you think “whore” is workplace-appropriate language? And how could you not consider that phrasing a direct and blatant insult to both his daughter and his parenting?

      I get not wanting to be judged as sexually promiscuous because you are attractive. But your boss’s daughter doesn’t sound promiscuous either, and I really doubt he was trying to imply that you are. (Although of course, yes, it was inappropriate and skeevy for him to comment on your appearance at all.)

      Honestly, I don’t have daughters, but if someone called my mother, sister, or niece a whore I don’t know how they could talk their way back from that. And I have to disagree with Allison that “it might have sounded like” is going to fly–but I guess it’s worth a shot. Be ready for him to call you out on the fact that your wording was pretty straight-forward and blatant!

      1. Allison*

        “Why would you think that wanting to go on a date makes a teenage girl a whore?”

        There are still people in the western world, especially the Bible Belt, who believe that unsupervised dating is risky and leads to intimacy that’s not appropriate before marriage, and “good girls” protect themselves by only agreeing to chaperoned outings with the opposite sex, usually within the bounds of an official, parental-sanctioned courtship.

        And there are those who believe that girls shouldn’t date until they’re 16. That age seems to be the time that teenagers have enough judgment to do somewhat adult things, like drive. Growing up, some of my friends couldn’t get cell phones until they were 16.

        1. Manders*

          Yeah, I don’t want to digress too much from giving the OP advice about her situation, but I did grow up in an area of America where many, many people believed what the OP believes, and many dads talked about their daughters this way. And I was in one of the “blue dot” cities and ran with a pretty liberal crowd–things get even weirder as you head deeper into the Bible Belt.

          I’m not saying it’s a healthy attitude. It squicked me out at the time. Now that I’m old enough to see how my conservatively raised friends went on to struggle with unhealthy ideas about their bodies and their sexuality, it makes me sad. But it isn’t necessarily “common sense” for people who grew up in this sort of culture to shed all their old hangups once they hit their 20s. It takes a lot of self reflection and conscious effort. Hopefully this will be the catalyst OP needed to start doing that hard work.

          1. Thlayli*

            Honestly I’m kind of leaning towards feeling sorry for the OP here – I think she’s been given pretty skewed values by her parents.

            OP you should read the section if the bible where Jesus stops a crowd from stoning a woman to death for extramarital sex, and the section where he accepts hostpitality from a woman well known to have extramarital sex. Then ask yourself if calling a teenage girl a whore for going on a date is really what Jesus would want you to do.

        2. Lizzle*

          Yeah, I guess I just feel like there’s a big gulf between “you shouldn’t do that” and “your daughter is a whore.”

          4. LBK*

            Eh, the difference is just phrasing. The idea is the same: that female sexuality doesn’t belong to women, and women who reclaim it should be condemned. Saying a woman is a whore if they don’t date within the guidelines outlined by men is just putting the same concept much more bluntly and insultingly. At least with the insulting version you’re not pretending this is borne out of some well-intentioned protective impulse.

            1. Allison*

              My angle was more “if she doesn’t follow these rules for purity, it must be because she doesn’t value her purity and probably wants to have sex.” And if you’re a super conservative, judgmental meanieface, you may make the jump to “she must be a whore.”

              1. LBK*

                I think we’re agreeing – I’m saying that I think it’s all part of the same belief system, and that calling someone a whore is the natural conclusion of that line of thinking. To me, thinking that way in the first place is so gross and wrong that verbalizing it with an epithet is only incrementally worse; the main issue isn’t that she didn’t phrase it in a more pleasant way, it’s that she espoused that ideology at all.

            2. Lizzle*

              I disagree that it’s a matter of phrasing. You shouldn’t smoke cigarettes, but that doesn’t make a child who’s interested in trying a cigarette a little s***, and it doesn’t make their parents failures. It just makes them a curious kid–and, of course, it doesn’t change the fact that cigarettes are bad.

              I think many commenters here think that the conservative idea of sexual purity is crazy in itself, and so see the OP’s type of talk as a normal extension of that. Maybe it’s on the same spectrum, but it’s NOT the same thing.

              1. LBK*

                To me, when you have that belief system, you’re already so far on one side of the spectrum that layering in a nasty word barely bumps you further along. My point is just that I don’t think believing women should be chaste and calling a woman who isn’t chaste a whore are on completely opposite sides of the spectrum – I think they’re pretty much right next to each other.

                1. Lizzle*

                  Well, to be clear in most conservative theology (if not always in practice) the idea is that people should be chaste, not that women should be chaste. However, I think you and I will probably not agree here.

                2. LBK*

                  But it’s usually the woman’s burden to not tempt the man; at least in the examples I’ve seen, the scrutiny on not dressing or acting in a certain way to encourage sexual desire lands squarely on the women.

                3. LBK*

                  (And I realize now that when I say chaste, I don’t just mean in the most literal sense of women not having sex, I mean leading a chaste lifestyle and holding the according comportment – sorry that wasn’t more clear.)

                4. Lizzle*

                  Oh, I see. I think I was reading a condemnation of the spiritual discipline of chastity while you meant a condemnation of certain cultural posturing around sexuality/purity/modesty.

                5. LBK*

                  Oh yeah, that’s what I meant – I don’t have a problem with people who, for their own reasons, decide to be chaste (although I think there’s a lot of questionable, problematic socialization that goes into that, but ultimately it’s not my business). I have an issue with people who impose that value on others and who control/judge the behavior of others (usually women) under the guise of “protecting their purity” or something like that.

                6. Chinook*

                  “I don’t have a problem with people who, for their own reasons, decide to be chaste (although I think there’s a lot of questionable, problematic socialization that goes into that, but ultimately it’s not my business). ”

                  LBK, can I ask what problematic socialization goes into being chaste? I speak as someone who was a 29 y.o. virgin when she met her husband (who was not either of those). I can tell you that I came to that conclusion not just from my religious upbringing but also from seeing all my classmates being sexually active and the headaches that caused when it came to relationships, health problems and unplanned pregnancies (often starting at the age of 14 – we joked that there wasn’t much else to do in our small town). And it wasn’t because I live a sheltered life either – I was the only one of my classmates to go to university and then I lived abroad as a single woman for a few years.

                  I know others sometimes make the choice because of what they are told, but I often found that those of us who consciously make that decision do so because we have weighed the pros and cons and realized we sort of like keeping this one thing for our future spouse.

        3. Observer*

          You can believe that unsupervised dating is a bad idea etc. and STILL recognize that a girl WANTING to date (or even dating!) does not make her a whore, even if she isn’t a “good girl.” Most people recognize that there is a fair bit of space between the two.

      2. miss_chevious*

        I’ll be honest, I would think of that comment, too. Although in my case, it has nothing to do with Christianity, but because the boss’s behavior is so creepy and belittling and over the top that I would want to shock him into stopping by trotting out his worst fear. It still wouldn’t be appropriate and I wouldn’t actually say it, but I would think it. And it wouldn’t be meant as a judgment on his daughter at all, but a verbal smack in his face.

    8. neverjaunty*

      Seriously. The Bible has rather a lot to say about the kind of behavior the OP engaged in (off the top of my head, for Christians, Matthew 5:22), and none of it says that the way to show devotion to God is to call a teenage girl a “whore” because her father’s a jerk.

      1. Luna*

        Why is her father a jerk? For being proud of his beautiful daughter? Mothers all over the world say the exact same things, but when a man says it it’s creepy? Hypocrite much?

        1. Mike C.*

          I think you need to better understand the context in which such comments are made. Google “purity balls” and come back to the thread.

          1. Luna*

            Never heard of such thing – am in Europe, so apologies for thinking paternal pride is OK.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Repeatedly stating your pride in your child’s looks is a pretty weird thing, even without the creepy sexualizing context. And really not good for kids, either.

              1. Julia*

                Why can’t he praise his daughter on her kindness, intelligence, stamina or anything other than her looks and attractiveness to the other sex?

            2. LBK*

              Paternal pride in the context of an ongoing conversation about children is one thing; unsolicited comments about your child’s appearance with no context go beyond just “paternal pride”.

            3. Sylvia*

              So, Google it.

              Also, somehow my dad manages to be proud of me without talking about how hot I am. Amazing.

              (Writing this made me cringe. My dad is great and he would never say something so inappropriate.)

              1. blackcat*

                Yeah, my dad’s bragging posts about me on FB are about my intelligence and/or professional activities. I think he might have shared wedding pictures referring to “my lovely daughter and handsome new son in law,” but that’s about as far as he goes on commenting on my looks to other people.

                Parental pride =/= talking about a child’s hotness.

            4. Aveline*

              Even if the dad’s comments were not sexual, repeatedly banging on about how hot his daughter is would be wrong because

              (1) Girls and women have enough pressure from overall society about our looks. We don’t need parents reinforcing that pressure.

              (2) No person develops a healthy sense of self if their parents, partners, or friends focus on one, and only one, aspect of their personhood.

              So if the father is focused on the daughter’s looks in the extreme – even if it’s not sexual – it’s harmful parental pride.

        2. Gandalf the Nude*

          For the record, it’s creepy when moms do it too, but I suspect neverjaunty is referring to the boss’ comment about OP’s own attractiveness.

        3. Detective Amy Santiago*

          It all depends on how it’s said and how OFTEN it’s said. Saying something once about your child being attractive is probably okay. Repeatedly talking about it is icky.

          And when you say “if she wasn’t my daughter, I’d date her” you have definitely crossed the line.

          2. Aveline*

            Repeatedly focusing on only one aspect of a child’s personality or body is icky. Even if it is “look at how smart Jamal is. He gets only As”

            It’s doubly icky when its based on looks, but any monofocus is detrimental.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Very good point. Because what does that reinforce to Jamal when he struggles in a class and comes home with a B or C?

        4. NaoNao*

          Because generally, when men of any stripe comment on a woman’s looks, it’s sexual in nature or context. And it’s very inappropriate for not just “a man” but a *father* to say that.
          And furthermore, he wasn’t just saying she’s “beautiful”. He was describing her desirability to the opposite sex, a group to which he belongs. That’s why it’s creepy.

          All compliments have context behind them: social, psychological, cultural, etc.

          It’s disingenuous to act as if words, or phrases are context free and “should” mean the same exact thing regardless of speaker, relationship to the spoken to, and the context of their utterance.

        5. Lablizard*

          I think you and I both hit a cultural misunderstanding wall on this one. Parents bragging on their kids is the norm where I am from, so I wouldn’t even notice. The question to the OP about being popular with boys when young, though, is a O_o to me because who wants to talk about their teenage dating that’s with their boss?

          1. Aveline*

            There’s a huge difference between bragging and bragging about only (or primarily) a daughter’s looks repeatedly. There’s also a big difference if it’s sexualized.

            Parental bragging is universal. What this dad is doing is not that.

        6. Sylvia*

          What is the non-hypocritical thing to do here, then? Invent a story of OP’s boss’s wife behaving the same way so that we can criticize them equally?

    9. TCO*

      Thanks for this. I was also raised in a conservative Christian environment, and even with some complicated messages about gender and sexuality, it was never, never okay to call someone a whore, especially not when their only “sin” was being beautiful.

      I say this to make it clear that while OP’s reaction may have been based on messages she received in a church setting, they’re not a Christian belief. If OP still observes her faith, I’d encourage her to untangle these messages and find a positive view of gender and sexuality within her religion. It’s not okay for OP to say, “But we’re all Christians!” and assume that absolves her of responsibility here.

      1. Allison*

        Calling pretty girls “whores” seems to be what people do when they’re envious. Women do it when they feel insecure about their own beauty, men do it when they’re unable to get a date, and blame these women for only dating rude jocks instead of nice guys.

      2. Turtle Candle*

        Yes: I grew up in an environment where dating was severely frowned upon (actual premarital sex could get you expelled from school), and it was still not okay to use words like “slut” and “whore.” It is possible to have a belief that dating is deeply wrong and immoral and still avoid using slurs.

        It might still have made boss uncomfortable to say something like “I was raised to believe that dating was wrong” or similar, and I’d avoid it (but then, I’m not the kind of person who has religious discussions at work anyway, so my boundaries there are clearly different than the LW’s), but it would have been nothing like the kind of bomb dropped with the ‘whore’ comment.

      3. Temperance*

        Pushing back – it IS a Christian belief, just not one held by all Christians. We need to call out this sort of behavioral and thought pattern, but not by erasing the reason.

        1. Aveline*

          I would say it is a belief held but some Christians, but it is not Christian. Jesus would be appalled by the use of the term.

          We need to push back on normalizing this as in line with what the teachings actually are. Christian churches teach this, but it isn’t in line with what Jesus actually preached.

          1. Temperance*

            I totally disagree with you. We absolutely do NOT need to call this jerk behavior by Christians not Christian. I’m not Christian, and I would never call a woman a name like that. Don’t push the worst of your people out on us.

            I want this to be “normalized” if that means that jerk Christians will be called out for being Christians and jerks.

            1. Aveline*

              Dude, I’m agnostic.

              I also think you are missing my point entirely, but it’s not even worth debating.

              If you weren’t raised Christian, or around them, perhaps you aren’t getting that the most effective way of getting them to change is to point out to them that what they are doing isn’t Christian or Christlike.

              What you are proposing has the opposite effect of what you intend on these types of people.

              I know, I was raised with/by them. The only time I’ve ever seen change was when the person/group learned that “you are doing X. It is against what the Christ said.”

              1. Chinook*

                Aveline, you are spot on. There is a reason why there is the popular phrase “What would Jesus do?” (Remember – getting angry enough to flip tables is an option!)

              2. Temperance*

                I was raised evangelical. I don’t really care about getting them to change, because they are not my people.

                The faith I was raised in had the expectation that our behavior would be Christlike, which doesn’t mean kind. It means that we call out sin, we love our neighbor for their own good, and try to get them to convert. It certainly doesn’t mean be polite, kind, or sweet.

    10. EA*

      I was raised this way as well.

      You are right, and the OP really needs to think about this and reflect, the worst part it, this just slipped out, and truly reveals how she feels. His daughter did nothing wrong, it is really you and her father who are at fault here.

      1. Shiara*

        I’d like to push back on the idea that things that slip out/unguarded comments are inherently more sincere and revealing of “true feelings” than things that are said with more reflection. When we’re uncomfortable and off guard, it can be easy to parrot stock phrases rather than expressing true feelings (one of the reasons prepared scripts are so nice for difficult situations).

        Whether this was a parroted attitude or revealing true feelings though, it is definitely worth examining how this horrid statement was the LW’s instinctive response. Whether by reflecting on internalised but unexamined values, or coming up with more appropriate scripts for dealing with inappropriate comments (I liked fposte’s “I’m sure that was kindly meant…” above), and doing your best to excise whore from your mental and verbal vocabulary.

        1. Mirax*

          Yes! One of the best things anyone ever told me is that your second thoughts matter more than your first. And I notice it in how I judge other people (internally)–my first thoughts are often the kind of petty criticisms that I internalized from how my parents talk about people; my second thoughts are my conscious effort to correct that unkindness and keep it corralled away where it can’t hurt others.

        2. Code Monkey, the SQL*

          You know Shiara, that’s fair. “My parents didn’t raise a whore,” to my mind, sounds like something that was said repeatedly as a scold/compliment to the OP when she didn’t/did adhere to the Purity boundaries of that particular strain of Christianese, and it stuck in there as a soundbite that came out at the absolute worst time in all its ugliness.

          Please, OP, if you’ve read down this far, please, please, please, excise that word from your vocabulary. There is absolutely no appropriate usage for it in the workplace (even against printers and the like). And, in case a Pauline recitation of credentials will help, I have been a Christian for 20 years, was raised Evangelical, did indeed Kiss Dating Goodbye with all that entails. I get the background.

          Ditch the word.

        3. Halpful*

          that’s a good point; when I’m tired it’s easy to accidentally say the *opposite* of what I mean (like, “I want macaroni. … wait, no, NOT macaroni, why did I say that!?”). When I’m *really* sleep-deprived, the things that come out of my mouth wouldn’t pass the turing test. I actually start to sound like a MegaHAL bot. :)

  5. Alli*

    I’d say the apology needs to go further than that, but I’m at a loss as to how to word it! I don’t think there’s any coming back from this one, in your boss’s eyes.

    3. The Final Pam*

      Yeah, I don’t think so. Even if OP apologizes I don’t think the boss is ever going to see you in the same way again. I certainly wouldn’t.

    4. MadGrad*

      Yeah, I don’t think “I didn’t mean it like that!” is going to cut it. There really isn’t any other way you can mean that kind of comment, no matter how embarrassed you are that you said it to your boss.

      1. AD*

        Agreed. This whole thing is problematic on so many levels – and the fall back on religion makes me queasy. If I were OP’s manager I would fire her immediately.

    5. Aunt Margie at Work*

      That’s true, because there is probably no way it can sound sincere. LW is sorry that there is now a problem with the boss, but unless she really understands that not only is saying this is wrong, but believing that a teen age girl who dates is a whore is wrong (for the reasons Alison listed), then there’s no way to come back.
      And since boss has, to a large extent, vested his pride and value as a father, he’s not going to be persuaded easily to let this go. And you kind of called his daughter a whore. In his place, I don’t think I could let that go.

      1. Lynxa*

        “LW is sorry that there is now a problem with the boss”

        This right here. LW said she didn’t realize she was saying her boss raised a whore of a daughter, but I can’t figure out HOW else that statement could have been meant. LW seems to be upset the boss is upset and offended, but you can’t apologize if you’re still trying to maintain plausible deniability about why you said such an off the rails thing about a 15 year old.

        1. Ursula*

          The only possibility I can think of is if she wasn’t paying that much attention (maybe because she was tired of the boss talking about his daughter all the time) and so was only answering the question directly asked: “Did you have an issue with too many boys?” In other words, she was thinking only about herself and generalities when she answered, and not even thinking about how those generalities would apply to the particular of his daughter.

          I’ve had that kind of thing happen to me before (though not with anything this offensive!) That said, it also means that she does still believe what she said, just that she didn’t think about the implications to the person she’s talking to when she said it, and perhaps wouldn’t have said it if she had. Which is only slightly worse than believing it and not saying it.

          1. Thlayli*

            Yeah, that makes sense. She wasn’t concentrating on what he was saying and just heard “I bet you were with a lot of guys in high school”. And got offended and snapped at him. And didn’t realise what it sounded like till later.

            1. Lynxa*

              But he said she is attractive, boys are fawning over her, and she wants to start dating. Not that she’s going on a date with a different boy every night or has had five boyfriends this week. I just don’t see how it’s translating to promiscuity when she hasn’t even STARTED dating yet! The only thing extrapolated to the LW was “I bet you were attractive and had lots of boys who wanted to date you”. (And I grew up in the bible belt. “My parents didn’t raise a whore” is definitely something I could hear people say, it’s the context here that’s baffling me).

              1. Thlayli*

                I was thinking she took the boss’s comment up wrong. He said “oh I bet you had that problem” where the “problem” is a lot of guys liking the girl, but she misheard or something and though he was saying she dated a lot of guys in high school. But now that I think of it, if she misheard him she would have mentioned that in the letter so that doesn’t make sense after all.

                There’s a comment further down about how in that culture women might say “my parents didn’t raise a whore” to men who were flirting with them basically as a way of getting rid of the man. That’s the only thing I think makes sense here.

            2. Mags*

              Same way I might say, “I’m no dummy” in a way that could be read as implying the other person is, even though it’s just an offhand remark that I don’t really mean anything by.

              E.g. Other Person: We should try this.
              Me: No, that won’t work because of this.
              Other person: Oh, you’re right.
              Me: I’m no dummy.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              I know as a younger me, I would have felt my defenses go up. I would have wondered where is he going with that remark?? Is he hitting on me? Does he think I was a runaround?

      2. Jadelyn*

        LW is sorry that there is now a problem with the boss – this, exactly. OP doesn’t sound like she’s sorry she said it, just that she’s sorry that it’s caused a problem with the boss.

    6. LBK*

      Yeah, I would be doing way more groveling than Alison’s wording suggests…I think complete mortification that those words ever came out of your mouth is the only thing that could potentially make this right. But honestly, given the history that led up to this situation, I might just look for another job. I don’t think you recover from this.

      1. fposte*

        I’d also, if the OP is no longer subscribing to those notions she heard as a teenager, explain that that was stuff you were inculcated with as a kid and you were surprised and mortified to hear it coming out of your own mouth. There’s a slender, very slender, chance that there could be some commonality over the difficulty making good choices as you raise young people. (“I don’t agree with what my parents did, but I have more understanding now about how tough it is to parent a teenager.”)

        It won’t undo the original comment, but it could give a little more of a sympathetic framework to it.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yes, I absolutely agree with this. If this is just a wretched echo of OP’s past, that needs explaining. If it is (God forbid) still part of her current thought process to shame women’s sexuality, that needs addressing.

          1. KaraLynn*

            It’s part of her current thinking or it wouldn’t have come out of her mouth – or at the very least, she would have realized that it was wrong immediately after she said it and not later on.

          2. Blue*

            I completely agree with you – I feel like this is the only way to begin to explain it, but OP shouldn’t attribute it to ingrained teachings she’s working to put behind her unless that’s actually the case. The fact that it took time for her to realize the implication doesn’t sound promising, unfortunately.

            1. Lablizard*

              Assuming that it was just a vestige of her upbringing and not how she really feels. I think the boss is going to be on alert for a “gotta save my job” apology and any insincerity in the apology might be detected.

              Personally, there is no way someone could recover from this statement if it was made to me, so this might be coloring my viewpoint.

        2. jamlady*

          This is really the only way to go. But yeah, it really won’t do much, if anything, and I think it might be best for the OP to move and learn from this.

        3. MegaMoose, Esq*

          I tend to agree this might be the only way to maybe salvage this situation, but I’m not sure the OP even wants to – this boss sounds like a piece of work.

        4. Effective Immediately*

          This was going to be my suggestion; it’s the only way to even come close to walking this back.

          “I’m so sorry, I realize I was raised with some really toxic ideas around gender and sexuality and I’m working on it. I’m horrified that what I said was so rote and immediately where my brain went; it is completely inappropriate and wrong and will never, ever happen again.”

          This whole letter though, front to back is so….yikes. By the end I was ready to jump right on my NOPE rocket to Nopetune. Wow.

          1. Aunt Margie at Work*

            I’d like to make a play on the space ship here, something like a “Seeyous capsule to Nopetune” cuz you are hilarious and I want to join in.

          2. Ursula*

            The problem with this apology is that she says the boss is also a ‘devout Christian’ which means that the boss probably actually agrees with her toxic ideas, he’s just offended to have them applied to HIS daughter. So she could offend him all over again by calling sexist norms toxic.

            2. Chinook*

              That is an incorrect, highly insulting assumption. I too am a “devout Christian’ (of the Catholic variety), raised in a devout Catholic family (complete with grandfather working for the priests) and I never heard such toxic ideas from any of the men or women around me.

              1. JB (not in Houston)*

                Yes, exactly. “Devout Christian” covers a very wide spectrum. I’m sure I know some Christians who feel this way, but I don’t, and neither to my parents, other relatives, or Christian friends. We can accept that there is overlap between people who say and believe such things and people who are Christians, but being a devout Christian doesn’t mean you agree with the OP.

              2. Thlayli*

                I am going to go out on a limb here and take a wild assumption that the OP may be Born Again Christian. Many BACs insist on referring to themselves only as Christian or “devout Christian”. In actual fact many BAC attitudes are the opposite of Christian.

                1. Thlayli*

                  I want to add a caveat – there are plenty of BACs who do not think that teenage dating is the same as being a whore. However when BACs do hold beliefs like this they tend to refer to them as “Christian” beliefs rather than the beliefs of a specific denomination and cultural group. Which is extremely annoying to the vast majority of Christians who do not hold these beliefs.

              3. BPT*

                Well I think the point is that the LW thought that he would share her views. It’s very possible she was mistaken, but I assumed that the facts that 1) they have both talked about being devout Christians many times (in a workplace) and 2) she didn’t think he would be offended by her insinuating girls can be whores, would suggest that he might share similar views to hers. Not saying that’s the case, but it’s possible.

                Not that you can’t ever bring up religion in a workplace by saying “I went to church this weekend” or something, but having several discussions with your boss about being a “devout Christian” would suggest to me that they did share things about their personal beliefs.

            3. Emilia Bedelia*

              It may or may not mean that he agrees with her- let’s not say that all Christians, devout or otherwise, have those sexist ideas. The boss being a Christian is a bit of a red herring, because that doesn’t really affect whether he has damaging sexist views or not, and the OP bringing it up adds a weird level of complication to this.
              Toxic ideas about women’s sexuality are not exclusive to Christianity. It’s perfectly valid for the OP to say that they were raised in a particularly sexist and damaging way, without specifying that it was because they were raised Christian.

            4. TootsNYC*

              I don’t think any of us can assume that her boss shared her toxic ideas!

              I’m a devout Christian–anyone who works with me will know that I’m a Christian before very long, because I sometimes mention it in passing.
              And I absolutely don’t share her toxic ideas about dating.

    7. Katie the Fed*

      I think the only way is something like how Cookie framed it below. Own it, and acknowledge that you have some really problematic views and are working on them. I would go into the boss’s office and talk to him.

    8. Marcy marketer*

      I agree the apology has to go further. I’d say something like, “I apologize for what I said earlier about Jane. It just popped out of my mouth without thinking and I realize it’s a relic from my very religious upbringing. I thought I had left that kind of language/thinking behind but I guess I still have work to do there. Again, I’m so sorry and it was totally inappropriate to say.

      1. Lynxa*

        Oh, this is really good. That’s about the only thing that would make me feel even a little bit better about the LW if I were the boss.

      5. Chinook*

        I like your wording but I would replace “religious” with “conservative,” especially since the OP’s boss is of the same faith. By saying this is part of her religious upbringing, it sort of implies that the boss is not being religious enough.

        1. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          Or maybe just drop the adjective and say it’s a “relic from my upbringing”? I know it’s less precise, but it also mitigates against the idea that “all conservatives are X” or “all members of my religious groups teach Y.”

      6. Bend & Snap*

        This is the only way to go IMO. Sincere (one would hope), not an excuse and takes full responsibility for the comment.

      7. Manager-at-Large*

        ^^ This. When I read it in the letter, my thought was that this was a script she’d heard many times from a parent growing up and it just popped out – things like “you are not going out looking like that – we are not raising a whore” and other terrible things to say to a young woman.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          Yeah, if it had been like, “I was raised in a super-conservative household – I couldn’t date at all, it was like ‘we’re not raising a whore, you’re not going out like that!’ all through high school,” sort of in air quotes, it could have come off differently, but…..

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Hey that sounds familiar!
          If this were the case, OP, could have used a few more words for added clarity.

    9. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      Also, can we talk about how she’s characterizing her boss’ reaction as “standoffish?” This is not a social snub against you, OP, he’s giving you a wide berth because you leveled an incredibly offensive insult at his entire family and his daughter in particular. “Standoffish” carries the connotation that someone is snubbing you unfairly.

      1. fposte*

        I think she’s just describing changed behavior in the term that came to mind; I don’t think she’s meaning it the way you’re reading it.

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          That’s fair enough. Still, OP, consider internalizing that you’re being shunned, hard, for possibly the most major social error you’ve ever made. This is not just a “how can I get him to forgive me and move on” kind of moment. This is a “is a heartfelt, written apology and lots of soul-searching enough, or do I have to resign in disgrace” moment.

          1. a Gen X manager*

            Agree, Not Mad. It could also be that the boss is SO angry that he isn’t ready to interact with OP, because of concerns that he won’t be able to comport himself appropriately.

            I’d also add that it is very likely that boss shared this with his spouse / best friend / someone and that it is continuing in his world and others are sharing in his hurt and anger.

    10. Jana*

      I agree. While an apology definitely seems appropriate (and necessary), based on OP’s retelling of the incident, it doesn’t sound as if it will ring true to claim the comment wasn’t intentionally directed at the boss’s parenting or his daughter. The boss’s comments about his daughter and OP were without a doubt inappropriate, but it might be difficult to come back from OP’s judgmental reaction toward a teenage girl (who OP seems to only know insofar as the boss’s comments about her). Of course, it is worth making the apology.

    11. blackcat*

      Yeah, and there’s also the fact that the boss’s comment was creepy (both about the daughter and the LW).

      I think this relationship might be torched.

      1. Misc*

        I can – just – see a situation in which the OP was on edge because of boss being creepy towards her/discomfort with the whole topic, and the comment about her dating got her hackles up, triggering a rather harsher dismissive response than necessary to get him to back off from that line of inquiry.

        It’s still an incredibly problematic and insulting thing to say; while women should be able to listen to their instincts and say no, that doesn’t mean you automatically punch someone in the face when they go to shake your hand in a pervy way.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        The boss maybe standoffish because he now realizes that OP is on to his inappropriate weirdness. He might be afraid that OP is going to report him.

  6. Leatherwings*

    Wow. Your bosses’ language about his daughter and his comment towards you wasn’t particularly normal or acceptable, but your response dwarfed that in its wrongness. I definitely agree you need to apologize but I also think you need to recognize that it’s possible you permanently damaged this relationship.

    1. Mazzy*

      I agree about the boss why is he saying these things about his daughter? Unless he had reason to believe she’d turn out horribly so is glad she didn’t?

      1. Manders*

        There are definitely cultural groups out there that would consider the dad’s comments normal, because they believe dads are responsible for protecting their daughters’ purity, modelling the way their future husband should behave, or controlling their dating life. It squicks me out personally, but I do also recognize that there are places where that’s the norm.

        1. Observer*

          Really? And those dads typically talk like this to their young, female reports? And make comments on the related hotness of said reports?

            1. Observer*

              And very few people, even a lot of people who voted for him, think that this is normal or reasonable behavior. (eg One person I know who voted fro him called his “gross”. They voted holding their nose…)

              I don’t want to get into the politics, but it’s worth pointing out that just because someone is successful, politically or otherwise, it doesn’t mean that anything they do is considered “ok” even by the people who work with them, or the public.

          2. Manders*

            I moved out of the area where that was culturally acceptable before I was old enough to work in an office job, but yeah, some men did talk to young women about their younger kids this way. Again, super weird and gross in my personal opinion, but I would not be surprised to hear certain middle-aged men in my hometown talking about their kids’ dating lives like this. When you think of a woman’s worth as being just her beauty and her ability to get married, the things you brag about as a “proud papa” are pretty freaking gross to people who don’t think that way.

            Look up “purity culture” for more about this. It was big in the 80s and 90s in my area, and some of the people who grew up in it are old enough to have kids of their own.

            1. fposte*

              I don’t even think it was strictly purity culture–it was around a few decades ago in a lot of workplaces. “She’ll break a lot of hearts someday,” etc., etc.

              It was still inappropriate, but, believe it or not, it wasn’t necessarily sexual on the boss’s part to compare it to a young woman who was pretty close to his daughter in age.

            2. BookishMiss*

              But yes. Purity balls are a thing, and they are Creepy. Purity balls, purity rings, etc, are all part of the belief system that women’s bodies and sexualities are not their own to control – because they aren’t capable of controlling them, therefore men must save them from their sexy selves.

              1. Mike C.*

                Which is a very interesting contrast to the idea that women must cover up lest they distract or seduce unwary men!

                1. BookishMiss*

                  two sides of the same icky, tarnished coin. Honestly, I don’t prefer either, they just suck in different ways while having the same end result.

          4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            It’s more common than you think. I find it creepy and possessive/objectifying, but in communities where people do this, they don’t find it creepy at all.

            1. Turtle Candle*

              It is indeed very very culture-dependent. One of my college roommates and good friends was from a different ethnic/cultural background than me (her parents weren’t Christian, nor were they particularly conservative) and I was baffled and unsettled by how often they talked about the attractiveness and beauty of their daughter. Until she invited me to an event in her community, and I discovered that it was a cultural norm–“my beautiful daughter” and “my handsome son” and so on and so forth were just something everyone… did.

              I still don’t really like it (I wish we could all focus less on attractiveness as a primary merit, among other reasons), but it’s much less creepy in a context of ‘everyone does it.’ It’s problematic in a general sense, but it doesn’t have the deeply worrying ‘this man is obsessed with the physical attractiveness of his daughters’ connotation that it does when the person is an outlier. It’s a problematic social norm, not a red flag personal fixation.

          5. Not So NewReader*

            Tangentially, look at this old song lyric: “Farmer Johnson’s daughter just pulled up in a Jeep, he knows how to grow them if you know what I mean…”

            [Watermelon Crawl? I think.]

            The whole idea is that the beauty of a man’s daughters is verification of his virility.

        2. Julia*

          I do think that fathers should model the way men should behave towards women, by treating both the daughter and her mother with respect. The rest is creepy, though.

    2. NoMoreMrFixit*

      The boss has a strong case of “proud poppa” in that he is obviously proud of the fact his daughter is an attractive young lady. Maybe going a bit overboard but I can understand that. I have two nieces and they’re both gorgeous. And yes I am aware I am biased on the topic. So I can understand his actions even if he’s going overboard.

      Your relationship with your boss just got nuked ’til it glows. You insulted his pride and joy, his baby girl. An apology is definitely required in this case, and the sooner the better. However it is quite likely that you have permanently damaged both your own image and your working relationship. Being a Christian he may forgive but this is something that won’t be forgotten.

      1. Leatherwings*

        Yep, I agree. I know a few dads who do this and it’s never not weird to hear them saying gross things about their daughters bodies. It would make me feel really uncomfortable to hear it. But OPs response was not proportional.

      2. Lablizard*

        My dad is equal opportunity on this kind of awkward. He says the same things about my brothers as he does me and my sisters. It sometimes makes me wonder if he was expecting to sire trolls or orcs or something and is overly pleased to have had humans

  7. Cambridge Comma*

    OP, it’s hard to tell written down rather than spoken but I wonder if you had a moment of automatically repeating something that you heard a lot as a teenager rather than thinking about it critically. That’s often worth dismantling.
    Perhaps you need to change the topic when your gross boss starts talking about his daughter. It sounds like it gets to you.

    1. fposte*

      I think this is a really good observation. I also can’t tell, OP, whether this was a vestigial impulse of some kind or if assessing somebody as being a whore is something you’re generally pretty comfortable with. If it’s the latter, I would really encourage you away from that practice; no good can come of it, and there are plenty of ways to prioritize a different code of dress and behavior without demonizing people who don’t.

      1. Effective Immediately*

        You know what, though? The fact that OP didn’t figure out how bad it was until much, much later and still isn’t coming across as really understanding how massive calling someone–particularly your boss’s daughter!–a whore is makes me think she might be in the “assessing someone as being a whore is something [she’s] pretty comfortable with” category.

        I hope this incident triggers a LOT of reflection for OP.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq*

          My generous interpretation is that the OP wasn’t really thinking about the daughter at all, just herself, but still! I’m having a hard time with complete sentences on this subject, apparently.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I went the opposite way and I thought OP panicked thinking her boss is some kind of weirdo.

    2. Lies, damn lies and...*

      Yeah, this was my thought – OP is not saying this as a judgement call necessarily, but because this is something she was taught by her parents. It needs to be walked waaaaaaaay back, and consideration around the language used in OP’s house is going to be important for future interaction.

    3. LibbyG*

      Yeah, I’m imagining the long-version of the LW’s response being, “No, I didn’t have that problem because dating was strictly forbidden by my parents; they said many times that they were ‘not raising a whore’.” Not an excuse, and it doesn’t dispel the general cloud of judgement, but it could help the LW convey to her boss that she wasn’t actually referring to his daughter.

      It makes me so sad that girls are still growing up with this frame.

      1. Hannah*

        Yes, exactly what I was thinking. She said the wrong thing, but not in the sense that she accidentally slipped and said what she really thinks about the boss’s daughter. It was just really bad word choice. I think we’ve all blurted out the wrong thing before.

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          I’m not sure I agree. Blurting happens, granted (my favourite fictional example is a scene with Hugh Grant in “Love, Actually”), but calling a child a whore is horribly problematic and needs to be examined much more thoroughly and thoughtfully than, say, stubbing my toe and dropping a series of f-bombs in front of a client.

    5. De Minimis*

      That’s what I think probably happened. She may have been told that over and over again and just repeated it without thinking.

      1. Hlyssande*

        That’s what I was thinking too. It’s not an excuse, but that kind of indoctrination is hard to shake without some sort of major event to force you to shake it off… such as this. I really hope this is a wake up call for the OP to self-examine and really work at rooting out that sort of thought process, because it’s seriously gross.

        1. Stinky Socks*

          On further reflection, I almost wonder if the boss/dad hadn’t primed the OP’s response just a tiny bit. If all of dad’s comments about daughter center on her physical attractiveness (never her kindness or sense of humor or work ethic or intelligence, etc.) then I could see OP unthinkingly slip into that particular mindset that both reduces women to their appearances/attractiveness *and* reduces women who don’t follow the particular group’s rules to sluts.

          If that’s the ocean you swam in the entire time you were growing up, it can make it harder to notice the toxic waters again later… This is not to excuse OP’s comment by any means at all. But I’ve known enough of these folks in real life that her comment didn’t actually surprise me that much.

    6. Erin*

      Good point. I’m assuming that’s what happened here – that you (OP) had a moment of automatically repeating something you heard a lot as a teenager.

      I’m honestly confused why the word “whore” needs to be used at all. I understand dressing more conservatively than other teenagers. I understand not being allowed to date until a certain age. I understand having religious convictions. I do not understand why we need to call other women/girls whores. Please consider trying to work that out of your vocabulary. Particularly at work! :)

      1. SLR*

        And to add to this, OP even mentioned that the Boss is a ‘devout Christian’ as well, so she’s trying to justify that she said it; maybe she thinks he believes that too b/c ‘devout Christian’? IDK, it was just something in the tone of this: “But he is also a devout Christian (we’ve discussed this many times)”
        that made me think she was justifying her words with something like ‘well he’s devout too, he would agree’. I’m thinking she saw a fellow Christian and assumed they were raised with the same ‘values’.

    7. designbot*

      If this is indeed the situation, I think it’s worth mentioning in the apology. “I instintively repeated something I heard all the time growing up, and when I heard it come out of my mouth and saw your reaction I immediately realized how awful it sounded. I can only offer my deepest apologies and assure you that I do not have negative feelings about how you’re raising your daughter; and even if I did it wouldn’t be my place to say. I am truly sorry.”

  8. Potato*

    Wow – I actually winced. Regardless of whether it was said in jest or in seriousness, that’s a horrible thing to say about a child, much less to a parent. I’m surprised it took a couple of hours for it to sink in just how inappropriate that comment was. Apologise, profusely and in person.

    1. Cordelia Naismith*

      Okay, I’ve thought about it a little bit more and I have something more constructive to add. OP, all I can think is that this must have been something your parents said to you often when you were a teenager, and so it was there in your head as a normal thing for an adult to stay to/about a teenager. As you can probably tell by the shocked reactions this post is generating in the comments, it really, really isn’t. Now that you are an adult and are interacting with people besides just your family and church, you should probably take some time to re-evaluate how the wider world views these kinds of comments so you don’t continue to find yourself in this kind of situation. The word “whore” in particular is considered a very cruel, vicious slur. It’s not something that anybody should be saying at all, but especially not a work and double especially not to a parent about their teenaged daughter.

  10. Anonymous Poster*

    Whoa. Yeah, this is a problem.

    Apologize to your boss. Alison’s wording is fantastic. You didn’t mean how it came across, but you now realize how it came across and are really, really sorry.

    This as an initial reaction is a problem. Whatever you have to do, but this is not a good initial reaction to have so try to work on how to break it. It might, big might, mean similar reactions elsewhere that you should be on the lookout for in the meantime. However you arrived at the reaction (And it can be arrived at from many different paths, I wouldn’t necessarily argue devout Christianity plays a huge role in this), I’d suggest looking at that and seeing if it could pop up elsewhere.

    The reason I suggest this is because these sorts of things (trust me, I’ve struggled from time to time with them too) manifest elsewhere that you aren’t aware of. My very caring wife has been helping me with this, and I’ve been helping her. If you’re in a good relationship with someone, they can help you too by lovingly pointing out where else this may pop up in your blindspots, and helping you address them.

    Good luck!

    1. MadGrad*

      I said this above, but I honestly don’t think that phrasing will do much because… What else could she have meant by that? The idea that she was officially not a “whore” because she didn’t date and dressed conservatively still probably implies that his daughter, sho does date, is by comparison. Or at least, that she considers that activity “whorish”. There’s no charitable way to cut this, so I wonder if she wouldn’t be better off apologizing profusely, acknowledging that it was a knee jerk reaction that HORRIFIED her, and mentioning that she’s seriously rethinking some of her values (which I sincerely hope she will – that’s not how you talk about children).

        1. MadGrad*

          Oh yeah, for sure, but not calling children sexually charged insults I think is the bare minimum.

      2. Anonymous Poster*

        Using that word carries a lot of baggage, I completely agree. I suspect this may be a knee-jerk reaction in a social setting versus actually thinking these thoughts about people. Most people don’t think calling others names like that is okay if they’re actually thinking about what they’re saying, and it would dawn on them later that what they said could (and probably was) very offensive.

        If this is similar to myself, where I’ve parroted offensive phrases as a knee-jerk reaction instead of actually thinking through what I was actually saying, then I could see in that case where the idea of, “I did not mean what I said, am very sorry, and am working on it. Please forgive me.” would be appropriate (and needs to be said ASAP to the boss!).

        I’m trying to give the benefit of the doubt, because this was my case. It also unearthed other things I needed to work on, which is why I suggested analyzing where it came from and working on that with a trusted person who can caringly point these things out.

  11. Heart Vandelay*

    I am having serious trouble constructing a response and will continue to sit here with my mouth agape! Once again, I’d like to praise Allison for responding some of the most difficult letter writers with aplomb, grace and solid advice. If I had to respond ..

  12. Katie*

    So is it Christian to call other people whores??? I’m not sure you define it right OP. Plus totally inappropriate language at work I’d have thought…

    1. Chinook*

      Not only is the OP’s response not a Christian one but, by wielding her faith as a weapon to shame another person, she is giving a prime example of why other Christians are not open about their faith in the workplace.

      Frankly, her response would make me not only embarrassed to be part of the same faith as her but also for her boss to jump to the logical conclusion that I believe what she does by the mere fact I wear a cross around my neck (which I don’t).

      Thanks for that, OP.

    2. Temperance*

      Hey, just being gentle here, but when you suggest that rude Christians are not Christian because they’re rude, what you’re actually suggesting is that non-Christians are, by definition, rude/judgmental/awful etc.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I don’t think that’s the implication at all. The idea is that Christianity has guiding principles that in theory should lead to certain behaviors and attitudes. The idea isn’t that people of other faiths cannot also have those same behaviors and attitudes.

        It would be similar to saying “If you’re a vegan, how can you wear a leather belt?” That doesn’t imply people who aren’t vegan necessarily wear leather belts.

      2. CM*

        I don’t think that’s true, and I hope this isn’t too much of a derail. Christ taught his followers to love each other. So it’s hypocritical to shame others in the name of being a good Christian. That’s all. It doesn’t follow that non-Christians are all rude and bad. (Contrapositive, not converse: if you’re being a good Christian, you’re not mean and judgmental toward others; therefore, if you are mean and judgmental toward others, you’re not being a good Christian.)

      3. Tomato Frog*

        That doesn’t follow. If I said “If you don’t believe in the laws of physics, you’re not a scientist” it doesn’t mean all non-scientists don’t believe in physics

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I don’t think I agree with that. I think it’s more about conformity to the teachings of your faith. Non-Christians aren’t expected to conform to Christianity’s teachings, but that doesn’t mean non-Christians are inherently rude/judgmental/awful, either. At least that’s not how I took it (as a non-Christian).

      5. Mustache Cat*

        I totally get what you’re saying. When people automatically reject the possibility that someone who is rude or harmful is ‘Christian’, they reject the possibility that Christians can do harm, which just jumps over the deeper social/theological problem. And yeah, the idea that Christians have a value system that emphasizes harm reduction only feeds into the larger belief that atheists don’t have any value system, and therefore are harmful to society in some way. (See: many, many surveys that say that the public doesn’t trust atheists). I think this is pretty off-topic, but I wanted to chime in and support you, Temperance!

        1. Relly*

          I absolutely see what you and Temperance are saying, and get where it seems problematic, but I don’t agree that your interpretation is what the speaker is actually implying.

          Of course there are Christians who do bad things. What I mean when I say it is usually, “okay, you know how Steve does bad things, and claims that Christianity is his reason? Eff Steve. Steve is just a shitty person.”

          I think most religions have a principle or two that boils down to “Don’t be a shitty person,” which means when someone does horrible things and uses that religion as an excuse, the other adherents are left face palming and going, “no, that’s not …. It’s not anywhere in the book that you should do that, I promise. Janet is just an asshole.”

          I also don’t think that atheists lack a moral code, and I’d never want to imply that. My vibe is that atheists go “I don’t need a book to tell me not to be a shitty person. That’s common sense.” And they do good things because that’s how society works, because they’re good people, because they’re compassionate and kind. And if someone else did crappy things and tried to justify it using atheism, the rest of the atheists would head desk and go”no, that’s not atheism. That’s just Vinnie. Vinnie is a jerk bag. Not because he’s an atheist. Because he’s just a jerk bag.”

          Every group, religious and non, has good people and shitty people. I think the quote is just meant as “look, Emma is one of those. You guys have shitty people too, right? Ugh, eff Emma.”

      6. Thlayli*

        That’s not the same thing at all. To behave in a Christian manner is to do the things that Christians believe are good, and that Jesus taught his followers to do. To behave in an unchristian manner or to not behave in a Christian manner is to do the things that jesus taught his followers not to do. It is nothing whatsoever to do with any other religion.

        For example, Christians are taught that murder is wrong. If someone commits murder they are behaving in an unchristian way. Or they are not behaving in a Christian way. Buddists, Muslims and Jews are also taught that murder is wrong, therefore to commit murder is not only unchristian it is also unislamic and unjewish/unbuddist (I have no idea What the actual words are sorry).

        Tl;dr: calling a behaviour unchristian is just saying that Christians should not do that. It is not the same as saying that non-Christians do that.

        1. Anna*

          Failing to observe the Sabbath may be unchristian. Calling a child a whore is mean and wrong, regardless of the religion of the speaker. So I think it’s inaccurate (or at least, under-described) to call it unchristian, since it would be bad behavior for anyone.

      7. Spiny*

        Well, no. Pointing out hypocrisy doesn’t also make traits or values exclusive to a specific identity.

    3. BPT*

      I mean yes, in some cases, it is part of a Christian belief system to treat women differently and call them whores.

      If you’re literally talking about the one belief that makes you Christian – believing Christ was the son of god sent to die for humans’ sins, then no it’s not necessarily Christian because it’s not explicitly stated in that one belief, but then neither is being a good person or praying or any of the other things that come into a Christian faith.

      I grew up in the conservative Bible belt (and grew up Christian). There are plenty of churches who teach this. There are plenty of Bible verses you can use to justify this (as well as verses that go against doing this). If you simply look at Jesus’ life, then maybe you don’t call women whores. But certainly it’s part of some Christian belief systems to degrade women.

      Note – I’m not saying this is exclusive to Christianity. It’s present in sects of every religion and people who aren’t religious can also display these traits. And I certainly don’t agree with it, obviously. But “Christian” is not equal to “good person.” There are plenty of Christian beliefs that are harmful to others and are practiced that way.

      1. SLR*

        We’re getting into ‘No True Scotsman Fallacy’ territory here.
        She weaponized her faith to call the boss’s daughter a whore. That’s the issue most of us have here with this. The fact that she’s backing this up with ‘but he’s devout too, we’ve discussed it’ is her defending her comment by saying if he were raising his daughter devoutly christian as she was he’d think the same thing. See Chinook’s comment above about how wearing a cross doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve been taught and internalized the same version of Christianity.

        1. BPT*

          Right – the No True Scotsman Fallacy is the exact reason why you can’t say that one action is or isn’t “Christian.”

          I know not every Christian believes the same thing, I was raised Christian but am not one anymore.

          What I’m saying is that, yes, this action is “Christian” to some people, so asking the LW if her action is “Christian” in an attempt to shame her out of it is not likely to work – if she was raised this way, then it is actually a Christian action according to her brand of Christianity.

          The argument should be that it’s a terrible thing to say and never to say it, especially about a child, full stop. Not that “it’s not a Christian thing to say so you shouldn’t say it.” That’s not likely to work with fundamentalist, fire and brimstone believers.

          1. SLR*

            Yes exactly, regardless of how OP was raised, for her to imply her boss is raising a whore AND said it out loud is horrifying! I’ve said before in other comments, that I honestly think that because they’ve discussed their faith together before she thought it was in line with his values as well as hers.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t think the “no true Scotsman” fallacy plays in here. The whole point of that fallacy is that there are people who are definitely in a category based on some non-shifting criteria (i.e., born in Scotland, lives in Scotland for X # of years… whatever it is) and regardless of behavior or belief, and when you find out that person exhibits behavior you don’t think a Scotsman should, then you differentiate by saying “This is what a true Scotsman would do.”

          Christianity’s different, though, as is any religion (maybe barring Judaism, which has a strong cultural/hereditary component in addition to the religious one). There is no definite criteria someone fits apart from behavior and belief. So if you decide in advance, “This is the behavior and belief that represents Christianity,” you can easily call people out for being fake Christians. Now, you may say it isn’t a person’s place to judge someone else, and that’s fine. But if you can agree certain behavior doesn’t seem congruent with a belief system, there’s no fallacy in positing that the person exhibiting that behavior probably doesn’t actually believe the belief system.

          Likewise, just because there is a wide range of interpretations of the Bible amongst denominations doesn’t mean Christianity is meaningless as a concept (whether you agree with it or not—in fact, if it were meaningless, there would be nothing to disagree with). I saw this fallacy a lot of when I taught high school English. There were a lot of kids who came into class thinking “Well, if there are different valid interpretations of Austen or Morrison or Hemingway, then any interpretation is valid, and you can just make up whatever BS you want.”

          1. BPT*

            But I mean there IS a definite criteria for being a Christian – and that is the belief that God came to earth in the form of his son to die for our sins, and that through that we are absolved. That is the literal definition of a Christian. Christianity specifically says that you don’t get to heaven through works – it is solely through this belief. That means that as long as you hold that one belief, you are a Christian. Certain sects of Christianity add things to that – specific behaviors that are expected, other beliefs that can go along with it. You can add things to that one specific belief and still be a Christian. That’s why different sects pop up.

            1. Humble Schoolmarm*

              I’m not sure it’s even that clear cut. Works are important in the Catholic understanding. It was one of the fundamental divisions of the Reformation between Catholic and Protestants. There is even some pushback on the first part of your statement in some very liberal denominations (ie. mine; I have heard “You’re not a real Christian if you believe/don’t believe such and such” so many times in my life and it drives me entirely bananas.)

              1. BPT*

                You’re right about works in Catholicism – I should have made that more clear. But the point is, both Catholicism and Protestantism are under the umbrella of “Christianity” because of their belief in Jesus. Then every denomination and sect adds different things to that core belief, but that is the one belief that categorizes one as Christian.

                I’ve never heard of a liberal Christian church who doesn’t believe in Jesus as the holy son of god who died for humanity, to be honest. Even Unitarian churches (according to the UUA) specifically don’t label themselves as “Christian” – they say they take inspiration from Christianity, and generally believe in god and may have certain views on Jesus, but in doing so they note that they are separate from Christianity.

                People can believe whatever they want of course, and there are like a million different ways to be Christian, but there is that one belief that generally needs to be there to meet the textbook definition. Just because I like going to church doesn’t mean I call myself Christian when I’m really agnostic. Someone who believes in all the tenants of capitalism but insists on calling themselves a communist have the right to do so, but that doesn’t really mean they meet the definition of someone who is a communist.

  13. Doug Judy*

    Yeah OP, this is bad, and I get you were raised conservatively and it was probably ingrained in you that not dressing in long denim skirts and baggy shirts made someone who was seeking male attention. When I was in middle school my Sunday school teacher asked me who bought my clothes. I said my mom. She later called my mom and told her I needed to dress less slutty because the boys in class were having trouble concentrating. My mom responded that I was dressed stylishly with properly fitting clothes and if the boys were having issues then perhaps she should teach a lesson on self control.

    BTW your boss is also creepy, ala Jim Bob Duggar. Way too involved in their daughters dating lives. Ick.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      God bless your mother.

      The attitude that women should change because of men’s reactions is so horribly insulting and damaging.

      1. Doug Judy*

        It’s super gross. And this happens like 20+ years ago. Mom was ahead of her time. She really is the best.

      2. Alex the Alchemist*

        Amen. And as a Christian, I think it’s important to remind people of Matthew 18:9 whenever anyone tries to blame women for men’s reactions to their appearance: “And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.”

        Basically if you can’t control your gaze just stab your eye out instead of blaming it on women just trying to exist.

        1. Doug Judy*

          Exactly.

          I totally forgot about this as it was 20 some years ago, but the Sunday school teacher’s son who was a bit older than me gave me a 2X tshirt for my birthday once. I likely weighed 95 lbs at the time. I was an incredibly insecure teenager, so all I said was that it was a little big for me. He said to wasn’t, I needed to hide my chest better. I wish I had told him off. I know I never wore it, and I remember my parents telling me to just ignore him, I wasn’t the problem. That whole family was a piece of work.

          3. Observer*

            The teacher allowed her son to give you a shirt for your birthday?! And her told you that you needed to hide your chest better?! Talk about people in glass houses! Before complaining about the way other people raise their kids, make sure YOUR own kids are acting with minimal decency!

            FTR, I consider this guys behavior to be considerably more immodest than wearing a too tight shirt. (Not that I’m saying your shirt was too tight.)

          4. No, please*

            My middle school principal told my very angry father that my chest was too big for a shirt that was well within the dress code bounds of “acceptable.” He told that principal exactly what he thought of him. The office door was open and surrounding classrooms heard everything. My dad really helped me see, right then and there, that not all men objectify young girls and I’m eternally grateful for that lesson.

          5. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            That is disgusting, and I am so sorry. And forgive me, but your Sunday School teacher and her son can go straight to you know where.

            Don’t feel bad that you didn’t tell him off; when people act beyond the bounds of basic decency, it’s ok to be so shocked that you’re unable to respond in the moment.

            1. Raine*

              This is my favorite response to use when I don’t know what else to say. Clue the movie was amazing.

    4. Little Missy*

      Your mom was the “bomb.com” as my daughter used to say. And she was totally correct here.

      I think “slut” and its variants need to go to the same corner as “whore.”

  14. London Engineer*

    Based on the headline I was expecting something along the lines of complaining about the new intern or a customer behaving inappropriately without realising who they were not this pile of misogyny and creepiness.

    1. HisGirlFriday*

      YES! This is what I was thinking. One of those great karmic moments you read about, like where a guy was on the tube in London and someone pushed past him and was rude, and then later the pushy guy shows up to be interviewed by the guy he pushed.

      THAT is what I expected.

  15. Anne*

    The only apology I can imagine being effective in this situation is to say, hey, I can’t believe I said that, I was raised in an environment that shamed girls for their sexuality growing up and I don’t feel the same way anymore but I reflexively said it anyway and I’m so ashamed that I did.

    Even if you actually DO feel the same way now – heck even if you actually think your boss’s kid is a whore – you should say it anyway because he is literally never going to look at you again without thinking “she told me to my face that I RAISED A WHORE” and you really need to do everything you can possibly do to mitigate that.

    Wow.

    2. Natalie*

      Yeah, this is what I was thinking, too. Although, LW, you are going to have to a) mean it, and b) guard carefully against any future kneejerk utterances.

    3. TCO*

      This is good wording. I think that OP’s boss deserves more explanation than “Hey, that was offensive and I’m sorry” when OP said something so judgemental and personal. If OP feels comfortable being a little more vulnerable, I’d suggest she use Anne’s wording. Since the boss is also religious, he might be sympathetic about the power that religion can hold over our worldview.

    4. ToraHime*

      I like this apology, but I’m also not the OP’s boss, who probably won’t “get” this apology–because from the OP’s description, he sounds like the type of person who “shame(s) girls for their sexuality” without realizing that’s what he’s doing. (And OMG, he is GROSS and inappropriate in so many ways.)

      I think the OP has to move on; look for a new job, figure out why the “whore” response came out reflexively, and decide whether that’s something you want to work on.

    5. V*

      Agree that this best approach. And it needs to be presented as a explanation/context for the comment, not as an excuse for the comment. There is no excuse for that comment.

    6. Shiara*

      I like this phrasing, and I think it has the best chance of defusing the situation, and is the most charitable context for situation while acknowledging the gravity of what was said.

    7. Bolt*

      I would leave out all explanation/context… I feel it could make it much worse if the wrong word is used. I would keep it to a simple, “I can’t believe that I said that, I recognize it was inappropriate and thoughtless, I am incredibly sorry for what I said.”

    9. LiveAndLetDie*

      I like “I can’t believe I said that, and I am ashamed that I did, and I am sorry” much more than I’m liking the responses that suggest an “I didn’t mean it” approach. The OP needs to take responsibility for the reprehensible thing that was said and apologize without making excuses or deflecting. I would even refrain from trying to cast it against her upbringing or religion, and keep it short. Just saying “I’m sorry, what I said was wrong and awful, and I feel ashamed that I said it” is going to be the best way to handle this.

  16. Here we go again*

    Yikes. I was also in audible gasp territory…

    FWIW, I don’t think the OP really insulted the boss’ daughter, rather I think she insulted the boss and specifically, his parenting. It was also completely inappropriate for him to make the comment “I bet you had that problem!” because that’s just creepy.

    That’s not to say that OP handled it even remotely correctly, but I do think she needs to apologize and take a moment to talk to the boss about how he comes across when he makes these comments (about his own daughter?!). It sounds like the boss is totally clueless about societal norms.

    All that being said, this may be a relationship that cannot be repaired.

    1. Cambridge Comma*

      I thought that OP was talking about herself and not even thinking about the boss’ daughter at the point where she said that. That’s why she didn’t realize until later that the boss would think she was referring to his daughter.

      1. Amadeo*

        Yeah, this is what I figured too when she said she later realized how it could have been taken. It’s entirely possible that Boss’s Daughter wasn’t really on her mind when she said it and only realized belatedly how her boss could have taken/probably did take it. I mean, I’ve done flubs like that before but not quite at this level.

    2. CaliCali*

      I really agree with this. It’s not that she called the girl a whore, because she actually didn’t. It’s that she said her parents didn’t “raise a whore,” implying that her boss IS. And given the context of Christian patriarchy (which is what’s specifically at play here, not necessarily the level of devout…ness), the sexuality of women can be seen as the purview of the men in positions of authority in her life (and is reflected by his creepy comments about his daughter). So if the girl were actually promiscuous, it wouldn’t be about her asserting bodily autonomy, it would be about her father’s failure as a parent. That’s the actual insult that needs to be rectified, but I’m really not sure how you could come back from that.

      1. fposte*

        I get the distinction you’re making, but I doubt that the boss was up for parsing it that finely; most people aren’t when their daughter is involved.

      2. Observer*

        Assuming you are correct, all it means is that the insult to the father is all the greater, not that she didn’t call the kid a whore. It takes it from “Your kid is a whore and you are the ones who made it happen, unlike my parents.” to “Your kid is a whore and, unlike my parents, you are a horrible and ineffective person for making your daughter this way.”

    3. bearing*

      That was what I was thinking. Faced with a creepy boss talking about his daughter as if she were a sex object, I could see myself reflexively snapping something that would telegraph “you are inappropriate and most normal parents do not want to put their daughter’s sexuality out there in front of strangers.” I suspect that OP’s reflex just came from a very deep place rooted in her own background where the usual thing was to associate openness with sexuality with immorality and where that word summed it all up.

      Which isn’t to excuse it. But blurting out inappropriate things happens, especially when boundary violations are already occurring. I think the boss’s comments must have been a sort of trigger for OP. I do think it’s more about the boss than about the daughter: not that OP was accusing the daughter of being a whore, more like accusing the boss of trying to make his daughter into one. I am not sure if there is a point in distinguishing the two, since it reflects a certain assumption about what relationship parents ought to have to daughters’ sexuality, except that the boss *was* truly acting inappropriate in talking like that to the OP whereas the daughter did nothing.

  17. marymoocow*

    I took the boss’s comment “I bet you had that problem” to mean “You are as pretty as my daughter, I bet lots of boys were interested in you.”

    I would also never say “whore” at work, and I never say it in my personal life either. I think it’s such an ugly word. It’s really disappointing and sad that this word is so ingrained in OP that she uses it “instinctively” and didn’t realize for hours that she hurt her boss’s feeling.

    1. marymoocow*

      Just to clarify. I definitely think the boss was out of line to bring up your dating history. I just think he intended it as a compliment and totally messed it up.

      1. Bee Eye LL*

        I agree the boss crossed a line. I’m wondering if he was actually flirting with her and she didn’t realize it until he directly the compliment at her.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Eh, I wouldn’t jump to flirting immediately, not by that one comment. It sounds to me like an awkward compliment from a man who probably thinks all women value being “pretty”. I work with a bunch of middle-aged men, and if one of them said something along those lines, I’d probably roll my eyes (yes, roll my eyes AT THEM) and say something snarky and then think nothing of it unless it happened again.

      2. Em*

        I disagree here. I do think he intended it as a compliment, but that doesn’t make it okay to talk about an employee’s appearance at work.

      3. Delta Delta*

        That’s how I interpreted the boss’s comment, too. It struck me as sort of an awkward compliment.

    2. kb*

      Yeah, OP’s boss made a misguided attempt at a compliment. It was not appropriate and is incredibly awkward to respond to, but generally it’s intended to be complimentary. I’ve been on the receiving end of it many times and all you can really do is change the subject.

      1. iseeshiny*

        “How can I fix the relationship?”

        There is no way to fix this, sorry. I’d start job hunting.

      2. iseeshiny*

        Yikes, I meant to say, “I love this, thanks for sharing!” here, and then put my previous comment as it’s own reply.

    3. Emm*

      I’m the furthest thing from religious that you can get, and I have NEVER said “whore” out load. Hell, I’ve never even *thought* it.

      How very Christian of them.

    4. Spring Flowers*

      Not to derail, but my (Catholic) religion teacher in junior high straight out in the middle of lecture called Mary Magdalene a whore.

      1. Chinook*

        “but my (Catholic) religion teacher in junior high straight out in the middle of lecture called Mary Magdalene a whore”

        The last person who implied that (which was DH while watching Jesus Christ Superstar last weekend) then got an in-depth theological and historical lesson about how he is mixing up two female characters and how this was encouraged by a particularly chauvinistic medieval pope. This was then followed up with gospel quotes showing a) they can’t be the same person and b) even Jesus wouldn’t call the prostitute a slur like that.

        2. Spring Flowers*

          This was back in the 1990s, and my and I still look back and laugh (as wrong as that might be) at how I came home, saying, “Mom, Mrs. Teacher called Mary Magdalene a whore in class!” At the time my mom was taken back by it, but she didn’t complain about it (probably because Mrs. Teacher was also the principal). The other interesting point was that Mrs. Teacher had been a nun, but for whatever reason, she left, got married, and had children.

          Since then I have learned different interpretations of Mary Magdalene, including how she could’ve been Jesus’ wife. I’m just perplexed why a teacher would have said that, especially to a bunch of 12 year olds!

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        There’s a great article in the WaPo about the persistent myth that Mary Magdalene is a whore and the role of persistently shaming her instead of focusing on her (amazing) role as Apostle of Apostles. And if you want a deep dive, read the Gnostic Gospels.

        But you could also always invite over Chinook, who is kicking butt and taking names :)

        1. BookishMiss*

          NPR has a pretty cool one as well.

          But I think I’d rather ask Chinook to record a podcast we can just play on loop.

          1. Chinook*

            Nah, too much work. I think any NPR podcast that includes a biblical scholar or theologian that understands/used the idea of intertextuality would be a good way to go. The history of combining Mary Magdalene (who is never referred to by her relationship to anything other than the town of Magdela and is referred to more often than most of the characters in the Gospel and has a a pivotal role), the prostitute who washes Jesus’ feet (who is never given a name) and Mary, the sister of Lazarus and Martha, is an interesting one (and a good argument for why not everyone should be named Mary) and revolves around a known chauvinistic Pope Gregory who was known to have an axe to grind against women and liked the message of redemption that came with conflating the two stories. The Catholic Church, in 1960, started to try and make up for this defamation of her character by making her feast day, June 22, an obligatory one, putting her on par with the 12 apostles (because of her role as apostle to the apostle as she was the first to announce to anyone that Jesus had risen from the dead).

    5. Temperance*

      I just snorted at your comment, but yes, I would like to confirm that devout Christians like LW use words like “whore” to describe women who show their shoulders and knees, who go on GASP dates, and who wear crossbody purses that show the shape of their breasts.

      1. Purple Jello*

        This column is so educational. I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to wear crossbody purses.

        1. No, please*

          You’re also not supposed to dance. To quote my great aunt, “Dancing is a vertical expression of a horizontal desire!”

          1. Not So NewReader*

            But less of a problem if you leave room for the Holy Spirit. Which is a space equal to one nun.

        2. BeautifulVoid*

          Me neither. And I specifically bought a diaper bag with a crossbody strap so I could have my hands free while wrangling my twin daughters. Guess I’m setting a terrible example for them.

    6. Dzhymm, BfD*

      There is a strain of extremely judgmental Christianity where such sentiments would feel right at home (think of the stereotypical Church Lady). In fact, I’m willing to bet that the reason the word just popped out of the OP’s mouth like that is because that sort of talk is quite common in their family and community…

    1. Lily in NYC*

      Yeah, I don’t think this is fixable. You just don’t insult someone’s teenage daughter like that! My SIL was dumped by her long-term boyfriend because she saw photos of his son’s prom and said that the son’s girlfriend was dressed like a slut (final straw kind of thing – she is so judgmental and mean).

      1. TallTeapot*

        Yep. I don’t see this ever being undone, OP. time to start looking for another job…and unpacking what made you say such a thing.

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      I agree. Regardless of whether the interpretation is that the daughter is a whore OR that the boss and his wife are raising one is pretty hard to come back from, even if both parties are of the same mindset that even contemplation of dating as teenager is verboten and that responsibility for sexual temptation lies with the woman. I would apologize as Alison suggests, but I’d also look for another job (both because this is likely to follow OP around at this job and because of Boss’s gross comments).

      Also, the justification for this comment that OP felt she and her boss were like-minded on the subject was also pretty horrifying to me, but I also knew/know a lot of devoutly Christian people who dated as teenagers. Devoutly Christian is not synonymous with the mindset OP displays.

  20. The Final Pam*

    Yeah, your boss’ comments are weird, but I don’t think there’s any way to come back from this. You didn’t just make some offhand comment that could be misinterpreted, you called your boss’ daughter a whore. This is not something that is easily forgiven or forgotten – even if your boss accepts it was a slip of the tongue, do you think a parent would ever get over something like that or forget something like that? I can’t see a situation where the relationship is permanently mended.

    And if this is just a slip of the tongue / involuntary I’d really take a look at what makes slut-shaming so unconscious or involuntary for you, because this sounds like something that could happen again and it’s not a great look.

    1. a Gen X manager*

      I totally agree, Final Pam. I can’t imagine that there is any possible way to come back from this; it is simply too harsh and too personal. The use of that particular word is also particularly problematic in the same way the “c” word would be.

      If the conversation were of a different topic and OP had used the “b” word, she could probably smooth that over since it is part of the vernacular and people say that about themselves, but the word whore carries so much judgment and so many connotations that it isn’t something that you could say that you were joking about or whatever. I agree with Alison about apologizing, but OP will need to move on ASAP.

    3. Metal Husband*

      Final Pam, I wasn’t going to comment until I saw your name. Thank you & good job.

      I also agree that the boss was a bit skeevy… but the word “whore” is just so strong (and also misogynistic, rude, uncalled for, etc.) that I’m not sure OP’s relationship with the boss will ever go back to normal.

      OP, I’m sure you do feel bad, but I don’t think this is something that can be resolved completely. Unfortunately, you’ll always be the employee who said your boss’ daughter was a whore.

  21. Karyn*

    Even if he is a devout Christian, I wouldn’t assume that he practices as strictly as you did/do. There are many ways to be devout. I know devout Jews who keep kosher but still drive to temple on Friday nights. It’s all personal. That’s why this letter has so many things wrong with it: too much personal stuff at work (religion, inappropriate comments from boss to employee, inappropriate comments about boss’s daughter).

    OP, I don’t want to pile on for the comment you made because it’s possible you realize it was wrong, but I would urge you to start separating your personal from professional lives when it comes to your boss, and perhaps start looking elsewhere for positions – it may be that there is no coming back from this one.

    1. Alton*

      I agree with this. Religion is very personal, and you can’t take for granted that someone who shares your faith will have the same views or experiences. I think it’s best to keep this sort of thing separate from work.

    2. Cath in Canada*

      Right… I used to have one Muslim coworker who’d say “I’m not all that religious – I mean, I observe Ramadan, obviously, but I don’t abstain from alcohol or anything like that” and another who’d say “I’m not all that religious – I mean, I don’t drink, obviously, but I don’t observe Ramadan or any of that stuff”.

      1. Karyn*

        Yep, that’s exactly what I mean. I consider myself a devout Jew in my beliefs and general actions in the community, but I don’t participate in Passover dietary restrictions or go to temple every week. It’s all about personal beliefs, so it’s dangerous to assume everyone is devout in the same way as you might be.

      2. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        One of my grad school cohort was Muslim. Abstained from alcohol, couldn’t stay away from bacon. I asked him why once, and he just sighed, shrugged, and said “As my dad said every time he had a whiskey, we are all sinners in the eyes of Allah.”

  22. Anne*

    OP you should also be aware going forward in your career that there are a lot of different ways to be a devout Christian, and assuming that because someone is devout that they share your exact same morals and worldview is a very, very risky thing to do.

  23. Cookie*

    Maybe you could say something like, “I grew up in an extremely religious household and obviously I still have some issues – I can’t believe I said that.”

    It’s pretty shocking, but if you bring it back to your issues and make it sound like you’re working through them, it’ll smooth over a little better.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I really like this. It might be way to salvage the job/relationship at this point.

      Several years ago a senior boss said something very, very sexist and demeaning to me in a meeting. I called him out on it after and he actually sincerely apologized and seemed so upset that he said it, and said “I think I have a lot of work to do. My daughter will be joining the workforce in a couple years and nobody should talk to her the way I talked to you.”

      It’s a start.

      2. LBK*

        I like this, but it’s also kind of disheartening to me when people can only feel bad about sexism when they think about their daughter/wife/sister/mother being on the receiving end of it. Women you don’t know and aren’t related to also deserve your respect!

        1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

          This is the thing that frustrates me about people who are homo- or transphobic and only come around when a family member comes out. Okay, great, you can rethink things when it’s your brother – was it too much to ask for just in general? Because I’m an upper middle class white boy who grew up in the whitest, most conservative neighborhood ever, raised by Republicans, and to my knowledge there’s not even anybody LGBT+ in my family tree closer than second cousin, and if I can figure it out, anybody can.

          1. AnonAcademic*

            I consider it a major emotional intelligence deficit when people can only understand or appreciate social issues like sexism or homophobia when it affects their immediate family.

        2. jamlady*

          I honestly think a lot of people really don’t see it or understand how something comes across *until* a woman reacts to it. Then it’s a moment for them to step back and think “wow okay, what did I just do?” And yes, having women in their lives they care about helps them do that. It’s not perfect, but like Katie said, it’s a start.

          1. LBK*

            Yeah, I’m certainly not going to condemn someone who’s seeing the light for not seeing it as soon as or in the way that I would’ve preferred. But it is still frustrating – it’s like, you were totally cool with all these other examples until it affected you personally? Where’s your empathy?

              1. LBK*

                True – sometimes people can’t believe such gross things actually happened the way women describe them until a woman they know and trust says it happened to them.

            2. Marisol*

              This upsets me too. I think it is an inability to think abstractly. They can’t access their empathy because they can’t imagine a theoretical person existing. So it’s less of an empathy failure per se and more of an intellectual fail. This American Life did a whole podcast about this a while back. Some activist groups discovered that they could change people’s minds if they sent door-to-door canvassers to share their personal experiences of an issue; for example, pro-choice canvassers who had abortions themselves and were willing to talk about their experiences did so, which resulted in previously pro-life voters actually reconsidering their position. But this only happened when an individual could share their specific experience one-on-one. Otherwise, no one changed their minds. The same thing happened with gay marriage. Once the voter interacted with someone who was gay and who wanted to marry, they came around to supporting it too. It’s infuriating for me to think about, honestly. (And the reason activists don’t do more of this apparently is that it’s an expensive way to get votes, with one canvasser per voter.)

              1. LBK*

                Sorry to say but at least for the gay rights study, that method was later pretty conclusively disproven – attempts to replicate it were completely unsuccessful and digging further into the study opened up some big holes that pointed to the entire thing being fabricated. Will post a link to the 538 article about it in the reply if I can find it.

                2. Marisol*

                  wow, very interesting. I wonder if some sort of correction was posted on the TAL website that I missed. Thanks!

              2. Observer*

                I agree that it’s often a failure of imagination. But it turns out that the study was a sham.

              3. Effective Immediately*

                I just want to chime in, as someone who works in abortion care, even if this were proven to be 100%, full proof effective in terms of moving electorates, it would be deeply problematic. We’re very, very careful about the times/places we ask people to share their abortion stories; the potential for opening them up to very real harm is just way, way too high. Ditto gay marriage, I would imagine.

        4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          I agree, and it bugs me, but I’ve also found that people are more willing to make profound changes to their worldview when it affects them personally (or directly). I guess I’m a little instrumentalist—if the analogy to your daughter makes it easier for you to comprehend why what you said is horrific, then good. I wish you could do it on your own, but I’ll take the win, regardless.

          1. LBK*

            Yeah, that’s pretty much my feeling on it. I don’t love it but I’ll take it over people never changing at all.

      3. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Honestly? I don’t think there’s a way to salvage things. If someone had said that to me about my daughter, there’d have been a long silence, and then I’d probably have told them to pack their things and get the hell out.

    2. Leatherwings*

      Given the context that the boss is pretty religious too, I think OP probably needs to be careful about this. Calling someone’s daughter a whore and then referencing the very same upbringing that boss believes he’s instilling in his daughter as a reason for why the insult happened may not be a winning strategy. Maybe a “strict” household or something similar though.

      2. CaliCali*

        Agreed. I don’t really think bringing up her rationale is going to help here, since they’re coming from the same general perspective.

        2. Dinosaur*

          Or even just owning it as a family thing might go over better. “That sentiment was something I heard often in my household as a teenager and I’m horrified that I unthinkingly parroted it. It was completely unacceptable and I apologize for putting my baggage on you and your family.” (Assuming that’s true.)

      4. Turtle Candle*

        I agree. One of the tricky things here is that she could accidentally insult the boss further by implying that the problem only came up because he’s less devout than she is, at which point the whore insult is compounded by the ‘I am a better believer than you’ insult. I think there are ways to do it, but it’s a potential minefield.

    3. Somniloquist*

      I like this as well. It seemed to me that she might have been parroting something that was said many times to her by her family and it was an automatic response. I would also advise her to express a large amount of mortification as well. Even though the boss was so out of line he probably can’t see the line anymore, the power dynamic still exists.

      And OP, if this is something that you just heard hundreds of times and internalized, I would really encourage you to look into why this is so inappropriate with a healthy dab of critical thinking. I’ve had to do that myself with my (non-religious) family and some of the norms I grew up with too.

  24. Bee Eye LL*

    Maybe I am reading into this a bit much, but it sounds to me like the boss is hitting on the OP. Like he used the daughter as an excuse to throw in compliments that I don’t think most fathers would use to describe their own daughters. Seems more like he is projecting. The “bet you didn’t have that problem” was where he finally crossed the line and turned the compliments directly to the OP. And maybe she sensed that in some way and her response was a defense mechanism.

    1. Bee Eye LL*

      To clarify, in NO WAY am I defending what you said to him. That was pretty harsh, but I’m seeing this as a defensive response to a boss who was out of line first. Like some others said it may be time to look for an exit.

      1. annejumps*

        Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Seems like there’s more going on under the surface than is immediately apparent in the text.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Agree with this. She did not directly say, “I am not a whore but your daughter is” and he did not directly say, “I wanna hit on you”, but there is so much wrong with this one conversation I cannot imagine a whole work day of this stuff. The boss gives me the creeps.

        I just wonder why OP wants to salvage this.

        OP, chose work places where people speak directly. I worked in one place that ran on inferences. For any given sentence, there can be at least two or three ways of interpreting it. I had to learn this in order to survive one place. It was exhausting. I learned as the day wore on to say less and less because I was less on top of my game by mid afternoon. And anything I said could be used against me at any time, even years later.

        OP, do you even like this job? Or is your fear of moving on holding you back? Some times when we catch ourselves spewing garbage it is because we have been too long in a baaaad place. I am reading your remark as you got your defenses up VERY high and VERY fast. If this is the case, you need to look at WHY.

        I have seen all kinds of stuff go on that is mind-bending. I know of one whole work place who covered for a child molester. The story blew up a while ago, so this is not news now. The person who stumbled on to it basically kicked a hornet’s nest and the hornets went after her. She wound up in a bunch of trouble and making newspaper headlines herself. I do understand that there is only a one in a million chance that this could apply to your setting. But if this rings true in any manner, just get out now. Do not work for unethical people. Make peace as best you can and then leave.

    2. kb*

      I don’t know, I’ve been on the receiving end of this sort of commentary a few times and I don’t think they were flirting. I think it’s generally intended as a compliment. It’s really weird and awkward to respond to (especially in the workplace), but I never got the sense people who have said it to me had any ulterior meanings attached to it besides maybe soliciting to my perspective as a former teen girl.

      1. kb*

        I’m not trying to defend boss’s statement–it is really inappropriate. I just don’t read it as flirtatious or an attempt at a come-on on its own.

        1. Cant*

          So, what would someone have to say to you before you took it as a sexual interest in you? Apparently someone saying “I find you sexually attractive” isn’t quite enough? Do they need to prove that they really mean it by humping you, or bringing flowers of a certain color, or something?

          Of course they mean it as a compliment! The point is, it’s not necessarily good for you that they find you attractive!

          Sure, attraction in and of itself is not a crime – people get workplace crushes without actually acting on them. Acting on the attraction in the workplace is the part that is generally a poor idea; verbalizing your attraction is acting on it, and therefore a bad idea. Some workplace romances even work out, but it is super-double inappropriate in all cases for a boss to say something like that to a subordinate.

          1. kb*

            As I said in my comments, I think it’s inappropriate, weird, and awkward. But I think on its own, it’s distinct from being hit on. I suppose it could be the world’s least-effective come-on, but in the situations I encountered it, it was an already awkward attempt at a compliment gone awry.

          2. kb*

            I do notice I was a bit unclear. When I said “generally intended as a compliment,” I should have specified “generally intended as an asexual compliment.”

          3. Anna*

            You can acknowledge that someone is attractive without hitting on them. Sometimes it’s just a statement of the obvious- that person meets society’s current idea of beauty. It’s a fact that Taylor Swift is attractive by conventional standards. She does nothing for me personally, but there’s no denying she’s society’s idea of beautiful.

            I could easily see myself making a similar comment to the boss with no sexual intent. The thought process would be “She’s objectively attractive. It’s likely that she was in high school. So she’s like my daughter, maybe she has some advice”. If OP is actually conventionally beautiful, it might not even occur to the boss that it’s weird to mention- it’s just a fact like OP having brown eyes or long hair.

            Inappropriate in the circumstances? Sure. Something that could only ever be interpreted as a come-on? Not in my opinion.

    3. Cant*

      This is how I took it, too. He shouldn’t make sex comments about the daughter or the employee at work. That’s going to be problem #2 the OP has to try to tackle, but honestly I think she should just start looking for a new job.

      The combo of “creepy boss with boundary issues” and “boss is attracted to the OP” and “OP insulted the boss and his kid” and “OP believes being attractive is sinful” is just… not worth it to tackle. Any two of those would be very hard to tackle successfully. All four? No. Take your labor somewhere else; this is officially the Titanic.

  25. Katie the Fed*

    This letter just makes me profoundly sad on so many levels: your boss’s sexist comments about his own daughter, and your equally sexist comments. We have so, so much work to do.

    OP, I hope you’ve give some serious thought to how you think and talk about other women. We need build each other up, not tear each other down.

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      This. The whole thing just makes me sad. The letter illustrates how we (as a society) place too much value on women’s sexuality–whether that’s value the father feels for his daughter because she’s pretty or the OP’s misguided guarding of her own sexuality and policing that of other women. It’s reductionist (and sexist and misogynistic) to think of women this way. I’m deeply troubled by the whole letter.

    2. Sibley*

      Agreed. As I find myself saying frequently lately: It’s ALL fixable. The only question is what it’ll take to fix it.

    3. caligirl*

      Katie the Fed,
      As a contractor, I have a secret hope/fantasy that you are in my command somewhere and I benefit from your expertise somehow in day to day life too – thank you!!

  26. Mary Dempster*

    I… wh…. hu…. WHAT?!

    I can’t see ANY coming back from this, even with the apology. If someone referred to my teenage daughter as a whore, and implied that I raised her to be one, even if she was standing on the street in knee high boots with dollar bills sticking out of her cleavage, I would lose my mind.

  27. Cringing 24/7*

    This literally made me so uncomfortable that I instinctively exited out of the window to compose myself before I could finish reading the OP’s letter.

    1. Anne*

      I first read this as if it meant you had literally climbed out of a window to compose yourself before coming back inside and finishing, and I was like “same”

        1. Hankie Enlightenment (formerly Sarahnova)*

          Me three!

          And TBH, it at least gave me a laugh related to this whole horrifying cluster of misogyny.

        2. Marisol*

          Me four. Also, what is with that word “defenestration” lately? I keep coming across it. Is it having a moment?

            1. Isben Takes Tea*

              One of my favorite historical events is the Second Defenestration of Prague, because it implies that there was, in fact, a FIRST Defenestration of Prague.

                1. Marisol*

                  the fact that the wikipedia article keeps repeating the word, as though it’s in common usage, is humorous to me. sort of reminds me of a comic deadpan.

      2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        I did, too, and it was a nice moment of levity in what is otherwise a deeply disturbing letter :(

  28. Snarkus Aurelius*

    I’m going to defend the OP here, and I’d like to ask for a bit of sympathy for her.

    When you’re the OP’s age and level of inexperience in the work world, you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s why this blog exists. When you’re raised from birth in a very specific and rigid environment, then you DOUBLY don’t know what you don’t know.

    If you look at the OP’s description, her response was kneejerk. She used the word “instinctively.” That, combined with her upbringing and age, says these thoughts are ingrained and haven’t had a lot of light shed on them. It’s no different than being raised to believe the world was flat or Jesus roamed the earth on a dinosaur. If that’s all you’ve ever been unequivocally told, then that’s what you know.

    I was also raised in a pretty strict and sexist environment minus the religion. When I was in my 20s, I also inadvertently said some horrible things about women because that’s how my parents raised me. But those terrible social experiences challenged that thinking and made me see the error of my ways. That and a kind person, who I originally offended, took me aside to say that my parents were trying to force me into their outdated, inaccurate sexist views rather than protect me. Side note: my parents were also mortified I repeated what they said in casual conversation, but they certainly didn’t criticize me for it. They now (somewhat) see the errors of their ways.

    I’m not excusing the OP; I’m explaining her position.

    Was this horrible? Absolutely. But this is how we learn and challenge some darker sides of our upbringings. Taking AAM’s advice is a great idea, and I’d even take it a step further to explain your thoughts, OP, provided you believe what you said was wrong. If you don’t think so, then I’d apologize and keep your mouth shut.

    1. Mary Dempster*

      But there’s still the idea of swearing at work – in what universe is that word OK at work, even if you’re being understanding of the sexist implication behind it? I mean, at least use the word harlot.

      2. miss_chevious*

        Swearing at work is highly contextual. I don’t think the OP was right is what she said, but she’s wrong on about three levels before we even get to swearing.

    2. fposte*

      I think we get her position, but late 20s and in a Fortune 500 company isn’t living in a bubble. As a manager, I’d nail to the wall a 19-year-old that said this; a late twentysomething I would probably just fire.

      1. paul*

        Yep.

        This isn’t some minor slip.

        OP called a 15 year old a whore which is never appropriate, and moreover, not for anything that the 15 year old *did* apparently!

        I was raised in a conservative rural area and this sort of behavior wouldn’t be acceptable 15 years ago there; this isn’t a “cultural misunderstanding.”

        1. Matt*

          Personally I don’t think the OP should be fired for this. Keep in mind, what she said was in the context of a pretty sexist situation to begin with. I know in the process she ended up insulting a 15 year old, but I think it’s probably more accurate that the frustration was directed at her boss who was making clearly making very sexist comments directly at the OP. I’m guessing she probably wouldn’t have made those comments otherwise.

          1. AD*

            I think you’re being overgenerous in assessing the OP’s intent in using that word, in that context.

            And there’s a distinction to be made – the boss’s comments were uncomfortable but what OP said was outright demeaning and insulting. Conflating the two is not a great approach.

          2. fposte*

            My call would be very situational. But I work in a field where you’re public facing, and you can’t compare people to whores whether they were sexist to you or not.

          3. hbc*

            Of course she wouldn’t have made those comments otherwise. But there’s unleashing your frustration with something like “They raised me to care more about my internal beauty” or “I wasn’t so interested in outside attention” which doesn’t directly put down anyone, and then there’s “They didn’t raise a whore” or “I wasn’t that shallow.” The latter are obvious negative judgments.

            As annoying as I’d find that manager, the OP’s statement was on a different level.

      2. Katie the Fed*

        Yeah. I’d expect to see a serious come-to-Jesus (no pun intended) revelation on OP’s part to show that she knows she holds some really antiquated, problematic views, and will be working on them. Sincerely.

      4. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

        Agreed. And it’s frankly insulting to other young women to blame this on OP’s “lack of experience” and age. I was recently a woman in my late 20s, and I have scores of women friends who did not say things like this when they were in their late 20s, either. And that includes women who grew up in families and communities like what OP has described. It would be different if OP were 19, 21, or even 24. But late 20s? No dice.

        Naivete is not an excuse when you’re likely 7-8 years out of college and working at a Fortune 500 company, which is more likely than not based in a large city with a diverse population and a diverse workforce.

    3. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      I can understand the sympathy part but can’t defend the OP.

      If she managed to get into a Fortune 500 firm – I’m wondering how. Surely there is some exposure to the “real world”, even among conservative Christians.

      1. Natalie*

        I wonder if she let her guard down because her boss has also identified as devout. In my experience, some super religious cultural groups assume that anyone who identifies as devoutly X Religion also agrees with all of their particular cultural mores and political beliefs. So perhaps she assumed they were fellow travelers in more ways than one.

      2. Just Another Techie*

        Fortune 500s have offices deep in the Bible Belt and in rural areas. It’s not all bankers in their ivory towers on wall street.

    4. Anne*

      Oh I totally get why it happened, and I can sympathize because she does seem sheltered, but I also think she definitely needs to see people explaining just how not ok this sort of thing is. She seems embarrassed that her boss took it the wrong way… as if there was a RIGHT way to take it, and as if, if he hadn’t been talking specifically about his daughter, it wouldn’t have been a problem to say it.

      OP can believe that if she wants! I don’t agree but the belief itself isn’t the actual problem here – the problem is that she 1) doesn’t seem to think that her perspective on teenage dating is unusual and 2) has no problem throwing the word ‘whore’ around at work while talking about it. She needs to realize that there’s a wide world of people who will totally not accept that sort of thing, and that it could seriously damage her career to keep assuming that other Christians could never be offended by these types of views.

    5. LBK*

      When you’re the OP’s age and level of inexperience in the work world, you don’t know what you don’t know.

      She’s in her late 20s, not an intern. I’m 27 and I’d say I’ve had more than enough time to pick up on pretty straightforward business etiquette like not calling your boss’s daughter a whore – I mean, how long does that one really take to figure out?

      I understand how someone can be raised to think that way, but I think the surest way to break that is to make it unequivocally clear how unacceptable that kind of thinking is outside of the bubble of your childhood environment.

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        Been a while since I read “How To Win Friends and Influence People,” but I’m pretty sure that went unsaid.

      2. Always anon*

        Yep. I’m 19 and have no experience in the working world, and I wouldn’t have ever *considered* saying anything remotely close to this in general, let alone *at work*. I’m sure I’ll make mistakes, but this is a blindingly major one that’s pretty easy to figure out that it’s not okay to do.

    6. Temperance*

      Eh, I was raised evangelical and also grew up around toxic attitudes. I figured out on my own that it was largely bunk, and that expressing hate for gay people and thinking that Titus 2 applies to all women was garbage.

      It’s not unreasonable to expect someone who has chosen to be out in the world to treat people with basic respect and dignity. I find it disgusting that you were raised by misogynists to be a misogynist, and I’m genuinely sad to hear that you held these opinions without questioning them.

      Critical thinking exists, and it’s underestimating the OP, and you, to assume that you couldn’t do better without someone taking pity on you after you caused them great harm.

    7. Allison*

      “When I was in my 20s, I also inadvertently said some horrible things about women because that’s how my parents raised me. But those terrible social experiences challenged that thinking and made me see the error of my ways.”

      It doesn’t matter why you say something horrible, if you say something bad, there are consequences in addition to that lesson. Sometimes someone just gets angry, and you feel horrible and apologize, and you move on with a heap of guilt and a slightly strained relationship that will hopefully heal in time. But sometimes your boyfriend breaks up with you for crossing a line, sometimes a friend gets so hurt they delete you on social media and never speak to you again, and sometimes you get fired.

      Look, I’m not Christian, but I’m trying to be a good person myself, and sometimes I stumble on that road. Like I said, sometimes there’s just anger and guilt to be dealt with, sometimes I lose someone or something I care about and need to pick up the pieces. If OP knows she did wrong and wants to learn and grow from the experience, that’s great, but that doesn’t mean her relationship with her boss can be fixed.

    8. Observer*

      I think you are seriously underestimating religious kids. And, the OP isn’t a kid, either – late 20’s is fully adult. She’s also not THAT new to the working world.

      I’m an Orthodox Jew – of the “ultra” variety. Provocative clothes are out. Non-marriage focused dating is not even a consideration. etc. Yet, I can’t imagine even the youngest of my children (younger than the OP) or the most judgemental of them ever using this kind of language to a parent – at work, no less!

    9. Marisol*

      You’re great. I agree completely. As Carl Jung said, “I’d rather be whole than good.” When we cling to our “good” selves with our judgments and righteous indignation, we are actually separating ourselves psychologically from that very human part of us that errs, effectively preventing our own wholeness. I want to be whole, and I want to forgive others their mistakes so that they can feel safe to embrace themselves, mistakes and all, and become whole too.

      Most of the responses to your comment push back, to varying degrees, against what you’ve said. Taken individually, the comments are just feedback, iterations of the simple, and correct, message that what the OP said was wrong, but taken together, and especially when considered with all the other comments posted, I think they create the meta message of WRONGNESS that exemplifies the very mindset that led the OP astray and caused her to so uncharitably mischaracterize normal healthy teenage behavior in the first place. But the antidote to a judgmental attitude is not more judgment. If we want to actually teach the OP anything useful, as opposed to merely punishing her, I think we need to offer understanding and forgiveness. I appreciate you for doing that. In fact, I applaud you for doing that. You have provided a kind of healthy rebalance to this dialogue.

      And lastly, my personal reaction to reading what the OP said was yes, a moment of shock, but I’ve certainly said enough shitty and stupid things in my life to get over the shock quickly. We make mistakes—that’s what humans do. The OP doesn’t deserve a flogging over it.

    10. Super Anon*

      I don’t know about this. I mean, I wasn’t specifically told that “it’s okay to be gay” or “black people are people too” and I figured it out. My parents believed all that, it just didn’t occur to them to explicitly tell me. There weren’t really any black people (or other people of color) or openly gay people for my parents to even demonstrate the above. I just figured it out. If I can do that, I should think other people could too.

      Plus I was raised with “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.” You could speak freely with family and close friends, but that was the rule for conversing with anybody else. We were also taught to keep a tight control over our tempers, a bad day, illness, a death in the family, nothing was considered an excuse for being rude or yelling at somebody. It might happen a few times as a teenager, and of course it happened a bit as a kid, but you were expected to be able to control your temper as an adult (18 or so).

      This isn’t just about what was said, but the fact that it got said at all.

      1. Marisol*

        If your parents believed all that, then they implicitly communicated those values to you; whether they were implicitly or explicitly taught is irrelevant. I don’t think you’ve refuted Snarkus’s argument in the least, especially since your second paragraph outlines the causal relationship between your upbringing and your behavior today. Your values reflect your upbringing, just like the OP’s values reflect hers. The OP was taught values that most of us on the blog, and in the larger society, condemn. I think she deserves some compassion for this.

        1. Observer*

          I actually do have compassion for the OP. It’s not just her views, but the fact that she apparently was not taught some basic rules for navigating the world. One of those rules is that you keep a lid on your “almost instinctive” negative reactions.

          Someone else pointed out that even if you take the loaded words out of the picture, the response was wholly out of line. To take the example to an even blander level, would anyone think it’s ok to respond “No, my parents didn’t raise an idiot.” I think that even if the kid were being a Grade A idiot, most people would realize this is not the right way to respond.

          Basically, the OP committed several errors – and it’s concerning that she doesn’t seem to see that. It’s going to be rather herd for her to do well for herself in the long term if she doesn’t figure this out.

          1. You don’t tell someone that their child is an **insert bad word**
          2. You don’t tell someone that they are doing a poor job of raising their kid(s)
          3. This goes double or triple in the workplace. Multiply that for your boss.

          OP, another thing to think about. In general “I didn’t think” not an excuse or explanation that’s going to do you a lot of good if you need to use it more that once in few years. Adults are supposed to be able to think before they speak.

  29. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    And, I might add, I think OP is going to have some problems functioning in the Fortune 500 world, if her attitude continues. One must learn to co-exist with people who were raised differently from oneself.

    I have had to work with philanderers, pot heads, born-again Christians, devout Catholics, etc. in 40 years. People of all backgrounds. Did I enjoy working alongside the philanderers and pot-smokers (on the job), the drunks, the women with eating disorders, etc. ??? Not all the time – but I did have to exhibit degree of tolerance.

    And the workplace of 2017 is diverse – one must learn to go along.

    1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      I might add I always enjoyed working with conservative Christians – because their attitude was “not everyone is like us, but we do our best, and strive, to get along with all.”

      1. Temperance*

        Your experience is your own there. I grew up with men who followed the “Billy Graham rule”, recently made famous by Mike Pence, and I think that women can be very disadvantaged when working with men like this.

    2. blackcat*

      Yep. I work with two people who are poly and open about it (eg at work social functions, sometimes they bring more than one partner). One of these people is lovely and has two lovely partners. The other is an ass with one asshole partner and one nice one. Their pleasant-ness as colleagues has nothing to do with their dating-lives.

      You never know who you are going to work with, and it’s important not to judge…

  30. Cathleen*

    I honestly don’t see how you could come back from this. Personally, I would be getting my resume ready.

  31. Junior Dev*

    This letter makes me sad. Basically here is what I see happening:

    1) boss has a pattern of discussing inappropriate topics at work

    2) boss tries to drag OP into the creepiness by comparing her to daughter

    3) OP panics and repeats the kind of language she was taught growing up to deflect male attention, which unfortunately involves putting other women down (and is implicitly victim-blaming by claiming she didn’t get unwanted attention due to “doing it right”)

    I don’t think OP was ok to say that, and she should examine her attitudes towards women and sexuality. But it’s hardly the first time I’ve seen women react to sexism or harassment in the workplace by lashing out at other women.

    1. misspiggy*

      Oh – as someone living far from the religious context described, that’s a very illuminating analysis.

      Makes it even more difficult for the OP to apologise in a way, although there are some useful scripts above.

    2. Lizzle*

      Hmm. That is a good point. If this is the case, OP–that you were trying to deflect a sexual advance toward yourself–then I think you want to give some sort of apology and then work on some rebuffing phrases that aren’t quite so inflammatory. Maybe, “Not really,” or “No, I was mostly interested in X” (in which X is computers, or gymnastics, or whatever else was taking up most of your energy as a teen) or “You’d have to ask my mom about that!”

      “Let’s not discuss that” and “You’re making me uncomfortable” are also on the table.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Yeah — honestly, this is the read I got on it, too. The pretty much exact wording of “We didn’t raise a whore” seems like a Thing in a lot of circles, and given the OP’s description of their thoughts around the incident, I really don’t get the sense that she actually was expressing any kind of opinion about the daughter at all, so much as just reciting the phrase that surrounded any thought of her adolescence + the existence of young men.

      1. The Not Mad But Sometimes Irritable Scientist*

        Sort of like how old Irish ladies of a certain vintage cross themselves when they hear certain phrases or sentiments expressed.

      2. Newest Newbie*

        I think I got the same impression as you.

        It didn’t sound like she intended to call the boss’s daughter a whore or that she has any sexist beliefs. It sounds like she was repeating part of a phrase that was ingrained in her brain by her parents (you can’t date because “we’re not raising a whore”), which had the unfortunate consequence of implying that the boss’s daughter is being raised as a whore. It’s an inappropriate thing to say at work, and she should apologize, but I don’t think it makes the letter writer a bad person in any way (she even figured out herself that it was a bad thing to say, and she understands why her boss is treating her differently). To me it seems akin to accidentally cursing.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, I did not think it was about the daughter at all. But I know many people would interpret it that way. My family used to speak like that. “Well I NEVER…” And the inference was that “You SHOULD NEVER also….”

        Can I just say I hate that way of speaking? I tend to confront it when I see it. I don’t know if it would be called passive-aggressive or gaslighting or what. The best I have ever come up with for it is “speaking indirectly”, the listener is supposed to find the implied message. It’s an exhausting way to communicate.

    4. Jeff A.*

      Great comment. I was having trouble making sense of this letter, but (with the same caveat that it’s not okay) this is a helpful way of framing the interaction

    5. Shadow*

      The problem is that not everyone agrees on where the line is that makes a convo inappropriate at work so you really have a duty to speak up if you . Because I’ve seen people who think ANY conversation that’s not directly tied to work is somehow inappropriate. They think it’s inappropriate to mention kids, to be asked what they did on the weekend, I mean some things most everyone agrees on but there is a ton of ambiguity.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think that people just have to say, “I don’t wish to discuss that.”

        It seems to be an ability that is almost a necessity in any work place.

        I had a friend who was surprised when I said that to them the first time. I had to repeat myself three times before I was heard once. But after that, my friend knew I meant it and I never had to repeat myself again. I think there was a bit of shock because very seldom do I say that I don’t wish to discuss something.

    6. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I think this is very astute, and a generous way to read the OP’s action. Well said.

    7. LCL*

      Yes, I think your take is totally right on this. Though what she said was offensive, it wouldn’t be justice if she gets fired for this and creepy boss is able to happily continue talking about his daughter’s sex appeal.

  32. Melissa*

    I would have a very serious conversation with any direct report who used such an offensive term for any woman, much less a child. If it were part of a pattern, I would probably fire the OP because that kind of language can quickly lead to many situations in which colleagues (especially women) would feel uncomfortable working with the OP. So yes, OP, you should sincerely apologize to your boss and to anyone else who might have overheard that comment. You might not get a second chance.

  33. Master Bean Counter*

    So much in only 9 words.
    OP- I’d highly recommend revamping your resume. Even if it looks like this isn’t going to affect your job immediately, you will have career stall because of this. You will forever be known as the person who called the bosses daughter a whore. That’s bad office politics and the only way to get over that is to move to another work place.

  34. Nephron*

    I am not sure if it is possible to come back from that. You may just want to start job searching now as you apologize and try to explain.
    You do need to be careful when trying to fix this though. If you have a nonreligious friend, or a friend that was brought up in a less conservative household than you, you might want to practice the apology/explanation with them. We pick up a lot of phrases and lines of thinking while we grow up and it can be startling when those we talk to as adults have completely different mindsets. In a less charged example, I grew up watching and reading a lot of science fiction and was honestly confused when I would make references to it and many of my friends would not understand. Undergraduate taught me to watch expressions more to realize when I had to explain something I just said, it also taught me how to summarize various shows very quickly. Some self-reflection on how you talk could be productive before you get much older so you have a chance to change any bad habits now. You also might want to practice not falling into such casual interactions at work. Your boss has kinda been blurring things with the conversations he has been having with you, and part of the issue is how you mimicked that. He should be keeping things professional, but the friendly casual style of talking is a managements style you could run into again. It can be hard, but in a professional setting it is often necessary to maintain a professional mindset despite how casual others might be behaving.

  35. Not A Morning Person*

    Another thing to be aware of is that is was also an insult to the boss and his wife who raised their daughter. Implying that a teenage girl who gets attention because of her looks is a whore and also implying it’s because of the way she was raised calls into question the parents, not just the child. So many ways this was insulting! Yes, he may have brought up the topic of being an attractive young person, but your response was way out of line. Please apologize as quickly as possible using Alison’s suggested wording. Then be aware that you’ve most likely permanently damaged your relationship with your manager. If that had been said to me, I’d wonder about what other critical and negative judgments you are making about others and I’d be very cautious and suspicious around you. Perhaps it was a phrasing you heard repeatedly at home, but that’s so inappropriate for a workplace and even for personal relationships that you may need some way to check with others about what’s appropriate since it took you awhile to realize that you had been offensive. Please learn from this and think about what you can do to guard against thinking this way or at a minimum saying it out loud.

    1. fposte*

      Yes, this was an unfortunately superpowered insult–I hadn’t even thought about the boss’s wife, and you’re right she’s in there too.

      1. Turtle Candle*

        And the insult is potentially further superpowered because he is a devout Christian. I remember the occasional one-upsmanship ‘better Chrstian than thou’ games, and they can be pretty brutal (although, admittedly, usually more subtle than this). It’s not just ‘your daughter’s a whore,’ it’s not just ‘you and your wife are bad parents who raised a whore,’ it’s also got an element of ‘my parents and I did Christian correctly (and you aren’t).’ In my experience it’s not common, but also not all that uncommon, for some types of Christians to accuse others of being “fake” Christians, and it’s an insult that really stings. (For all I know other religious groups do it too–I just don’t have experience of that.)

        This is why I’m not sure that an excuse pinning this on a ‘conservative’ or ‘devout’ or ‘religious’ upbringing is going to help–that kind of thing can help if you’re dealing with someone who doesn’t consider themselves a conservative/devout Christian, but if they do, it can sound like you’re both blaming the religion and sort of… backhanded bragging about it?

        I don’t know if I’m making any sense here, but I think the “I said that because I grew up in a very strict, conservative Christian house, and I was trained to think that way” explanation would work well if she’d offended someone from a different religion or even a non-conservative Christian denomination, but it could backfire badly if the boss thinks of himself as conservative.

  36. Critter*

    Whoa and yowza.

    I think some heavy-duty apologizing is in order, exactly as Alison suggested, as per usual. But I doubt that you could fix the relationship. You can apologize for saying it, but I’m not sure you can for *thinking* it.

  37. A.*

    I’m glad at least the OP realized that was a horribly inappropriate thing to say, better late than never. I was raised in a super conservative church (got away from them long ago) and that was a phrase I learned in that sheltered community, so sadly, I can actually imagine someone reflexively saying that without even thinking you just can’t say that stuff to other people!

    OP, if that was a phrase your parents used on you as a reason you weren’t allowed to date or do other normal teenager things, maybe you can share in your apology that you were were being thoughtless in using a reference from your own very restrictive childhood, and not intentionally trying to judge someone else’s family, which is how it came across.

    I agree with Alison, you do need to apologize, and it would be helpful for you to examine how some of your assumptions that you have internalized from your childhood may have a negative impact now.

  38. Tobias Funke*

    OP, does your boss often make gross comments to you? Because two wrongs don’t make a right but I can see how the environment might make your skin crawl. What your boss said was “I bet you were really hot when you were 15!” which is incredibly gross. And then you clapped back with something equally gross.

    It is probably time to critically assess your views on sexuality as well as polish your resume.

  39. a Gen X manager*

    There have been some really shocking posts over the years, but this is the first time that I feel literally speechless reading an AAM post.

  40. Delta Delta*

    Remember maybe a week or two ago when there was a question about an employee who always talked about her kids in every conversation? This feels like an updated version of that, but with a giant twist, obviously. I see a few things here:

    1. A boss who seemingly always talks about his daughter and her looks. It’s possible he talks about more than just her looks, but that seems to be what the OP is picking up on. I can see where it can get tiresome to hear ALL THE TIME about the subject. I talked to a former co-worker’s 8 year old daughter once about a thing going on in co-worker’s life. The daughter said to me very sincerely, “I can’t wait until X happens. That way Dad will stop talking about it all the time.” Mandatory 8 year old eye roll, too.

    2. For folks picking up on the creepy “my daughter is so pretty” factor, that’s also a flag. It’s also possible BossDad is talking about other things but that this is the thread OP picks up on for whatever reason. It’s also weird Boss tried to bring it back around to the OP. That felt like an attempt at commiseration, and maybe even a weird compliment, to me.

    3. This could be a very good time for OP to start examining assumptions. It’s really hard to break ingrained thoughts. But suppose Daughter came to the office to help with filing a few days a week after school. How would OP treat her? Would OP call her a whore to her face for being pretty? Probably not. But would OP be chilly to her due to the OP’s own assumptions and upbringing? Hard to know. And to spin it out from there, what else does OP assume about people upon meeting them or hearing about them? It’s hard work to learn to put things like that aside.

    4. Everyone has an “open mouth, insert foot” comment from time to time. This seems pretty bad on the spectrum. Unfortunately, probably it’s time to move on from this job.

  41. paul*

    Your boss seems creepy, your comments seem grossly inappropriate. OP, if I were your boss I’d be looking to terminate you ASAP. People tend to not always be the most rational when it comes to their kids, and you just called his daughter a whore-being angry as hell would be a rational response for myriad reasons.

    I don’t know that you can salvage this. You might check with HR to see what the company policy on references is. Issue a sincere apology, be very professional, and start job hunting because you very likely nuked this bridge from orbit.

    1. Beancounter Eric*

      “Nuked this bridge from orbit”….got to remember that one.

      And yeah, a chat with HR, and update/begin circulating the resume. Don’t think this position will be salvageable.

  42. Oryx*

    So, there’s a lot to unpack here, OP, and I hope you do that.

    First, I come from a large extended family who are very devout Christians. They would never, ever use that term so please don’t use your religion for justification in this example. Perhaps that’s how your family raised you, but this is not indicative of all Christian homes.

    Second, I’m actually surprised it took you hours later to figure out the problem with your choice of terms. Calling someone a whore is never, under any circumstances, appropriate. I don’t care how the person dresses or how many partners they have or what they do for a living. I will repeat: Calling someone a whore is never, under any circumstances, appropriate.

    More to that point, considering the fact that you used that term in relationship to a teenager who isn’t even dating yet suggests you have some very strong, ingrained feelings regarding women and their place in society in relationship to men. “Slut” tends to fall under this same umbrella in that women are often labeled “slut” for reasons. Women who have been raped get called sluts. Women who turn down a man’s advances get called sluts. Virgins get called sluts. Well endowed women get called sluts.

    If I were you, I would do a lot of reading of feminist texts to get a better understanding of what specifically about your choice of language was problematic. For contemporary writers, this librarian suggests starting with Roxane Gay’s “Bad Feminist” and Lindy West’s “Shrill.”

    In the meantime, possibly consider refreshing your resume because I don’t know if there is a way to bounce back from this.

    1. Silver Cormorant*

      I feel like the time it took her to realize it was wrong is the worst part. I could definitely see saying something instinctively without thinking, then immediately realize what you said and follow it up with “I can’t believe I just said that! I’m so sorry!” But continuing on as if it was normal to say that, and only realizing it was wrong hours later? There’s something deeply and fundamentally wrong here.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        People who are regularly put on the defensive can take some time to figure out how their own words were like gasoline on a fire.

        Someone upthread wisely pointed out that OP figured it out in a few hours where other people go their entire lives and never figure it out.

  43. Kaybee*

    Clearly boundaries have been blurred on all sides. It sounds like your shared faith was a source of bonding between you and your boss (I’m curious as to how people in your department who are not of that faith are treated – do they have the same “mentorship” opportunities?), and led to your turning your internal filter off. Alison clearly outlined my feelings about calling someone that, so I won’t pile on there. But, for me, and I believe most people, no matter how we may speak in our everyday lives, w- is just not just a word we would use with our boss. Particularly as it relates to their family. I understand being annoyed at him and wanting to shut the conversation down, but somewhere you lost your filter. And clearly his internal filter has been turned off with you, because yeah, he’s said some creepy things. You work for a large company; if it were me, I’d start looking to see if there were other opportunities available in it. Not just because of this comment, rather, to hit a refresh button with the company and begin to have normal relationships with normal boundaries.

  44. Stacey*

    I’m also not sure Alison’s wording goes far enough – this is really, really bad, and I’m not sure what *would* go far enough. Start with the apology to try to thaw tensions at least a little, but in your shoes, I think I’d be starting to look for a new job. Even after damage repair, I’m not sure you ever come back from being “the person who essentially called his daughter a whore.” (Or, really, the person who called *anyone* a whore in a workplace conversation.)

    As noted, it’s also kind of creepy for your boss to be having this conversation with you at all, so starting to look elsewhere might be a good idea anyway. No one in this scenario looks good, and removing yourself from it as soon as reasonably possible might be for the best.

  45. Anlina*

    Unless you’re a sex worker, please just eliminate “whore” from your vocabulary entirely.

    It’s considered so egregious an insult because society tells us that being a sex worker is the worst thing a woman could be. “Whore” is borne of and perpetuates the stigma that devalues the lives of sex workers and denies our humanity.

    This stigma kills sex workers. It literally tells people that it’s okay, even funny, to kill sex workers. That if you want to do violence to someone, we’re a good target, because neither the police nor the general public will care.

    Whore is a slur, and unless you’re a sex worker who is reclaiming it, you just shouldn’t use it, ever.

    3. Shadow*

      That’s a bit of a stretch to insinuate she told her boss that his daughter is worthy of being killed and that people would find it funny.

      2. Junior Dev*

        That’s not what Alina said. The comment was about the wider social context around the word.

      3. Anlina*

        That’s not at all what I was saying.

        I’m saying that “whore” is considered such a terrible insult because of the sex work stigma attached to it.

        That using the word “whore” perpetuates that stigma which has real life, violent, sometimes life-ending consequences for sex workers.

        That non-sex workers should avoid using the word “whore”, not just because it’s rude or sex shaming, or that typical teenage dating behaviour shouldn’t be stigmatized, but because “whore” ties into deeply harmful ideas about how women’s sexuality defines their value, to the point where some lives are considered disposable.

        I’m absolutely certain that, if you asked people who casually use the word, if they think that murder is okay or that certain people deserve to die, their conscious response would be an emphatic “NO” and horror at the very idea. Yet subconsciously, the word evokes the notion that some women’s lives have no value.

    4. JobSeeker017*

      Anlina:

      Although I understand your desire to avoid shaming any woman’s sexuality, I would suggest that you refrain from ordering an adult woman to remove a legitimate word from her vocabulary.

      It doesn’t really serve any purpose beyond causing further shame to another woman, which doesn’t appear to be the purpose of your post.

  46. cocobean1109*

    Wow OP.

    First of all, I’d like to echo others and say that it is NEVER ok to call a teenage girl a “whore”. Frankly, it’s never ok to call anyone a whore because having sex or not having sex or being beautiful or having guys interested in you DOES NOT make a person a whore. Your judgemental thinking is so far from being “Christian” that Jesus himself is probably rolling his eyes at you.

    You insulted your boss and his daughter. If you want any chance of salvaging that relationship my advice would be to go to him and say something like, “I made a stupid, knee-jerk statement based on things I was told as a child. Not only do I apologize to you for insulting you and your daughter, I plan on taking a serious look at the highly judgemental beliefs that caused the reaction in the first place.”

    1. a Gen X manager*

      totally agree, cocobean – I was thinking the same thing about “Your judgmental thinking is so far from being “Christian” that Jesus himself is probably rolling his eyes at you.”!

      It is far too common for people who describe themselves as “devout Christian” to be extraordinarily judgmental and hypocritical, which disparages the very core of Jesus’ teaching of love, service to others, and acceptance.

      1. Ellen Fremedon*

        Considering that Jesus was known for hanging out with prostitutes, I don’t think he’d have been down with using ‘whore’ as an insult, or with assuming that sex work is shameful or that having a child engaged in it is a failure for a parent.

  47. CaliCali*

    Also, I think other comments here have mentioned it, but I actually think Alison’s headline is a bit misleading: while it was a sideways insult of the boss’s daughter, it was more that it was a direct insult of the boss re: the way he’s raising her daughter (which she states in the second-to-last paragraph). All her comments about being raised devoutly Christian, and him being that way too, are to say that she can’t get around it by saying she was raised super strictly. Given that, I’m really not sure she can walk back from it at all.

  48. a Gen X manager*

    OP – Before the realization that “I basically said my boss and his wife raised a whore of a daughter”, what did you think you had communicated in that interaction? Did you believe that you were only speaking about yourself?

  49. moss*

    I think the boss was totally out of line here. His comments were creepy and crossed professional boundaries. And OP’s response was not great but hey, it was successful in that her boss is no longer making creepy comments to her!

      2. moss*

        I figured the “don’t call people insulting names” was already covered, but I think that people are coming down on the OP and leaving aside how totally inappropriate the boss was being. I think this is a lesson not to get too personal at work.

        1. Observer*

          No, most people HAVE noted that the boss was being inappropriate. But, the general consensus, with which I agree, is that the boss was out of line and the OP was pretty much out of orbit.

          And, while she was successful in getting her boss to stop the inappropriate comments, she used the equivalent of a howitzer on a gnat.

        2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

          It’s possible for both actors to have behaved badly without introducing a false moral equivalence.

          And OP’s way of responding to her boss’ creepiness is not at all appropriate or acceptable.

      1. AD*

        That, and I’m just uncomfortable with conflating the boss’s admittedly clueless behavior regarding his daughter’s attractiveness (and his comment to OP), and the OP’s “whore” comment. They’re just not the same thing.

  50. gladfe*

    I hope I’m not reading too much into wording, but “I didn’t realize until hours later how this came across” makes me worry the OP has some idea of an alternate interpretation that she thinks would be less offensive. I think if she hopes to salvage the professional relationship, it’s going to be really important that the apology not include any “what I meant to say was X.” There’s no X that would justify this, and trying would just compound the original insult.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      She might be able to get away with “What I meant to say was that my parents would have called me a whore and forbidden even my asking for permission to date, so I’m not the best person to discuss this with, as I have no experience there.”

    2. MuseumChick*

      This is a good catch. I hope the OP comments with clarification on what other meaning this statement could possibly have because I just don’t see it/

  51. Jessesgirl72*

    The only constructive thing I can say to the OP is that she needs to become accustomed to “devout Christian” having a wide range of meaning, and what one sect considers scandalous and sinful is considered normal and healthy by another. You can decide for yourself which you believe is right or wrong, but the differences do exist and one shouldn’t be shocked to discover this.

    Then I might mumble things, as a devout Christian (of an admittedly liberal denomination), about logs in your own eye, or casting stones…

    1. Temperance*

      As an ex-evangelical, I think she needs to wake up and realize that not everyone she’s interacting with is a Christian. Otherwise, I’m 100% behind your comment here.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        I think her confusion because “he said he was a devout Christian” is that she wouldn’t have said it if she knew he were an Atheist or didn’t believe she knew what he was.

        1. Natalie*

          Yeah, that’s my read as well. My in-laws are very devout, as well as belonging to a very conservative (politically and culturally) evangelical subculture. In their minds, the Venn diagram of “devout Christian” and “cultural and political conservative” are basically a single circle. They are far more thrown by the fact that my devoutly Catholic mother is not similarly culturally/politically conservative, than they are by the fact that I (atheist) am not.

    2. Allie*

      My parents were pretty strict Christians and I would have been punished for using that kind of language.

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        Even the Duggars use “Jezebel”

        Which, if she’d used that word instead, might get her a little more leeway, as the use of the word would itself explain where her (wrongheaded) thinking was coming from.

        The first clue that the OP should have picked up on that her assumptions about her boss’s beliefs were wrong is the very fact that he was bragging about his daughter’s attractiveness to boys, rather than being ashamed of her for it.

  52. Shadow*

    I don’t get what’s icky about the dad talking about how beautiful his daughter is. Lots of parents talk generally about how good looking their kids are and how many boys/girls will be after them.

    It is a little weird that he commented about the ops appearance. But that’s small peas compared to the ops comment. I don’t think he’ll ever look at her the same after that.

    1. Leatherwings*

      Men making constant comments about their daughters’ bodies is considered creepy because 1) making comments about any woman’s body is creepy and 2) sexualizing your own daughter is gross. This is not controversial and it’s different than a parent saying “I’m so proud of my daughter, she’s growing up to be a smart, beautiful young woman.” I agree that it’s small peas, but the boss was inappropriate too.

      1. Shadow*

        Many mothers do the same thing with their sons-talk about how handsome they are and how they’re going to have to fight off the girls.

        And yes, i agree it would be creepy and gross if he was commenting about his daughters body parts, but he sounds more like he’s just trying to be proud.

        1. LBK*

          Yeah, but regularly starting up conversations about how proud you are of your daughter? Weird and annoying in the workplace, even if they weren’t about her appearance.

    2. Junior Dev*

      It is weird that he talks about it at work, for sure. I also think it’s weird to go past the territory of “my child is so beautiful” to “lots of people are attracted to my child in a sexual/romantic way.” IMO this is one of those “just because it’s common, doesn’t mean it’s ok” scenarios.

      It’s also fairly frustrating as a queer person that acknowledging LGBT people exist can get you accused of “shoving your sexuality down people’s throats” yet it’s totally ok to be like “that toddler is such a ladies’ man!!!”

      1. Observer*

        yet it’s totally ok to be like “that toddler is such a ladies’ man!!!”

        Actually, I think it’s gross, and I don’t think I’m unique. No matter how it’s meant it’s ridiculously sexualizing of a child.

        1. Aunt Vixen*

          I am here to tell you you’re not unique. My kid is five months old and the number of “well hello ladies” and similar I have to scroll past in order to buy him clothes is disheartening to say the least.

    3. LBK*

      I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with a parent making an occasional comment about their child’s appearance, but constant unsolicited comments that don’t seem to come with context are pretty weird. They’d be weird regardless of the relationship – imagine someone going on and on about how hot their wife is all the time. It’s just not really a casual conversation topic.

    4. hbc*

      I think it’s sad to talk about how good looking your kids are, frankly, and I think less of people who do it. I mean, it’s one thing if you just got the yearbook photos back and “here’s my beautiful child” because those really aren’t about anything but appearance. But tell me about how your kid is funny, or how great he was in the school play, or how her summer job is going–show me something that indicates you see them as more than just a pretty face.

      It doesn’t help that I find the attractiveness comments 99% correlated with people who are both overly attached to their children (ex: daily texting during work hours) and general sexist, hetero-normative attitudes. I’m not at all surprised he made the comment to the OP.

        1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

          … and there’s nothing wrong with doing that, as long as the boasting doesn’t take a “my kid is better than your kid” — which, can accidentally fall into place. When asked by someone whose kids AREN’T doing well – you just say “she’s gettin’ along fine, doing well”…..

    5. HannahS*

      Well, what’s weird about it to me is that they’re proud of their kid’s appearance (which is superficial and isn’t an achievement) and their assumed desirability. That’s weird. “My teenage daughter is so sexually desirable!” “My teenage son will have to opportunity to sleep with lots of girls!” are VERY strange things for parents to be bragging about. On top of it, they’re assuming that the kid is heterosexual, which is its own whole other problem.

      1. Shadow*

        Is it really weird that a parent wants their kid to be good looking? If that’s all he wants then yeah-weird, but the comments likely came up because that’s the issue that’s front and center for the dad right now

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s weird to talk about it to this extent, yeah. And it’s bad for the kid. Focus on their kindness, their hard work, their sense of humor — that’s much better for them than focusing on what they look like, something over which they have no control and which is already fraught with weirdness in our culture.

          1. Shadow*

            Being that it sounds like it’s unchartered territory for this dad I don’t think it’s out of the ordinary to bring it up regularly. In fact I wouldnt be surprised if he talks about it all the time. dealing with your daughter dating for the first time is something most every dad is nervous as hell about.

            1. HannahS*

              Ok, so he’s nervous, but what is he saying? There’s a very big difference between a parent saying, “Jane is talking about dating and I’m worried about her safety–I’ve heard so many stories about girls being assaulted” and “Jane is talking about dating. She’s so attractive! All the boys love her! This is a problem.”

            2. SarahTheEntwife*

              Sure, but bringing it up at work, with his employees?? This sounds like the sort of thing you should be bringing up with good friends and preferably fellow-parents.

  53. Lurking, mostly*

    The word “whore” just doesn’t belong in the workplace. Basically, OP should have just edited their thoughts, stopped right there and not said anything. I’ve found a smile and non-committal nod is all that’s ever required in these situations.

      1. Lurking, mostly*

        I agree, but not everyone does. But no matter what you do or say in your non-work life, work life has certain norms. It just pays to mentally edit what you say. I’m a gym rat…so certain words (mostly starting with “f”) are creeping into my language. I think through what I’m about to say every single time.

  54. Temperance*

    LW, I was raised like you, except it didn’t take. I would definitely take Alison’s great advice here, but I’m going to ask you to take it further. You really need to examine your interactions with other people and consciously think about you you treat others.

    You have a certain cultural view of the world. You need to wake up and realize that other people don’t share those views. It’s fine for you to hold yourself, and others in your faith, to the standards that were impressed upon you. It’s absolutely NOT okay to judge others, to berate others, or to assume that you’re superior because you courted, not dated. (And yes, calling a child a whore is judgment, it is NOT “calling out sin”.)

    I felt slapped when I read what you said to your boss.

    1. Jessesgirl72*

      She mistakenly believed that her boss saying he was a devout Christian meant the exact same thing as the way she was raised and believes. She seems to think it was justified as “calling out sin” because she failed to consider even the possibility that there is another kind of Christian.

      1. Liane*

        I go with what my past pastor said in a sermon about the Wheat & Tares parable: (paraphrased) Our job is to take care of the wheat; leave the tares to the Lord to deal with.

  56. Catabodua*

    I assumed it was going to turn out she said the girl wasn’t actually that pretty or something along those lines.

    Whoa indeed.

    Get your resume polished up. I can’t imagine a scenario where he’ll continue to employ you.

    1. JenM*

      That’s exactly what I thought was going to happen too. Something like she saw a photo and blurted out “really?” Still can’t quite believe what she actually said!!

  57. Observer*

    I haven’t read all the messages, but I want to get something in here. I don’t think that being raised in a household where “in which provocative clothing and behavior was forbidden, and dating wasn’t even a consideration.” explained this. I was raised in a household that was similar in that respect (except that we are Orthodox Jews.) I simply cannot imagine a situation where I would say something like this. Nor, to be honest, anyone else I know who was raised that way.

    The fact that this response was “almost instinctive” and that it took HOURS to realize how insulting your response was is concerning to me. This is not about how a comment “came across”. You said something that was horribly insulting. And, it’s not excused by the fact that your boss seems to be a bit of a jerk (and is probably doing a very bad job of raising his daughter.)

    You owe your boss an apology. More importantly, you need to rethink your attitudes and how you relate to people.

    1. imakethings*

      I agree. I was also put off that it took her hours to realize her wrongdoing. Especially after she said her boss seemed shocked at her comment. Isn’t that an immediate red flag that maybe you behaved inappropriately!?

      1. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

        It’s such a very loaded word that even reading it or hearing it causes most people kind of an emotional ping, a little inward “dang, that happened.” I can’t imagine tossing it out and not noticing the effect it had.

    2. Catabodua*

      I have a suspicion that she told someone else what she said expecting them to back her up and instead got a 2nd horrified look / reaction and it made her realize that she might have said something wrong.

    3. AD*

      and is probably doing a very bad job of raising his daughter

      Observer, your comments are so insightful….and then you went and said the above. That’s not fair at all, and not something we can extrapolate from what’s mentioned in OP’s letter.

      1. Observer*

        The reason I said that is simple – it’s a REALLY bad idea to discuss how all the boys are fawning over your daughter with young women you employ. I’m not talking about workplace appropriateness here – I’m talking about parenting. It’s just a really, really bad idea. Now, it’s possible that it’s his only parenting mistake, but it tends to speak to some unhealthy attitudes as a parent. Since it’s a possibility and not really the point, I put it in parentheses.

        I brought it up to make a point, which apparently was not clear. The point is that even if this guy really is doing a bad job of raising his daughter, that still doesn’t excuse what the OP said.

        1. AD*

          You’re lumping everything he said together into one category.

          -Comment to OP on her appearance/whatnot? Inappropriate.
          -Comments on his daughter’s appearance/attractiveness? In questionable taste, probably said out of pride but awkwardly communicated.
          -Leap to say he is “probably doing a very bad job of raising his daughter”? Huge.

          1. Observer*

            Multiple comments about how all the boys are fawning over her go way beyond that. It’s just out of line, from a parenting perspective.

    4. Tax Accountant*

      I was raised in a really conservative christian household too and… I kind of get it, unfortunately. My mom didnt use the word “whore” ever, but the attitude was there. She made us listen to hours of Dr. Laura, who was the most awful, cruel, judgmental person when it came to the topic of female s*xuality. In the deep south, surrounded by conservative evangelical Christianity, that attitude that female sexuality was a sin was always there. It was damaging to say the least.

      I’m hoping the OP didn’t think about how it came across because she was just thinking about herself when she used the word whore. And then she realized that of course her boss would take it as a comment about his daughter. Not that that makes any of this in any way right.

    5. JD*

      Yes I agree and am glad to read this comment. There has been a lot of conversation about conservative Christianity, but it strikes me as a distraction from the real problem. I was once slut shamed by a very conservative Jewish man because I was wearing a top that showed both of my shoulders. But that was just one jackass, not a whole religion. It’s not about being Jewish, or Christian — nor conservative for that matter! — it’s about being a decent human to others.

  58. Amber Rose*

    Ouch.

    In addition to looking into your own thoughts and assumptions, please really, really look at what you consider acceptable language in a professional environment. Especially because you mention you said it as a sort of instinct. Because if I were your boss, not only would I be offended, I’d be seriously concerned about how you interact with others while working and whether you’re an HR problem.

  59. Anne*

    It sounds like OP was raised in the sort of environment where, like, if a boy talked to her at church she’d get whupped for bringing Satan into his soul by showing some ankle under her floor-length denim skirt or whatever. What I can’t tell from the letter is if she still believes that, or if her beliefs have changed and it just popped out.

  60. CatCat (was LawCat)*

    Rule of thumb: Unless you have a work-related reason for having to explain what someone said (e.g., Manager to HR, “I think we should fire Tywin for calling Cersei a whore”), don’t use the term “whore” in the workplace.

  61. imakethings*

    I don’t think any apology will work without context. Meaning you will absolutely need to explain your background and that this ingrained archaic mentality is something you’re working on. I’m sad for everyone involved, especially this poor 15-year-old girl.

  62. Effie*

    Hi OP,

    I have so much compassion for you because I was raised with similar ultra-conservative values, and my resulting unhealthy thought patterns are something I’ve really struggled to unpack after moving away from my family and gradually learning to think for myself, not by the way I was raised or “for God” or for anything else. I can see myself having a knee-jerk internal reaction if I was in your situation even a few years ago (I silently judged people all the time even though I was able to keep those thoughts private).

    The way I was raised made a woman a “sinner” even for pursuing the desire for the opposite sex. Having the desire was okay but giving any weight to the desire was what made it “wrong” or “sinful”. (TMI warning) Perhaps you were luckier than I and had a low sex drive; I had and still have a very high sex drive and I was constantly warring with myself and doing my best to suppress it, constantly failing and knowing that any thoughts I had about the opposite sex were wrong and I generally felt ashamed of myself as a Christian. I knew I was a whore on the inside and would have judged another female Christian harshly for expressing a desire to date unless we were in a situation where we were confessing our sins/sinful thoughts to each other for support.

    All this to say that these thought patterns really are unhealthy. Extra badness if you learned, as I did, that it’s okay and expected for men to grapple with their sex drive and to “pursue” women in relationships but it’s NEVER okay for women to. If you can, I strongly encourage you to take some time and reconsider which thoughts and ideas are bringing glory to God and which are tearing others (and yourself) down. I sincerely hope that you’re able to separate what’s been reinforced by an innately sexist culture and what is truly loving to others and to yourself. Good luck.

    2. MegaMoose, Esq*

      My spouse was raised in a similar culture – your comment summarizes the issues very thoughtfully.

    3. Manders*

      Thank you for sharing your experience. I’m so glad you were able to get to a healthier place.

      I wasn’t raised in this kind of culture, but I did grow up in an area where it was common and I had friends in it. Looking back on it now as an adult, the women I know who were “successful” in never having impure thoughts about boys either had naturally low libidos or have since come out as queer. The ones who were “unsuccessful” in suppressing those thoughts were just normal straight hormonal teenagers and believing they were brokem and sinful really messed them up in ways they’re still recovering from in their 20s and 30s.

    5. Blue*

      This resonates with me in a major way. I appreciate your point that breaking down this thought process is a kindness to yourself. I was able to shed judgment of other women’s sexuality fairly easily when I went to college (I’m not entirely sure how; it didn’t start as a conscious goal), but I found it much harder to let go of the inwardly-directed judgment and shame. It continues to be a work in progress.

  63. MommyMD*

    You can’t fix it. You insinuated their child is a whore and this is unacceptable language in any workplace. Apologize and look for another job and do some soul searching on why you have that inner dialogue and such malice towards a normal teen girl in the first place. Good luck.

  64. Michael*

    Sounds like a bad joke gone wrong. Professional comedians can make ‘whore’ jokes in comedy clubs; pretty much no one else can. Make sure your apology includes that you realize jokes like that aren’t funny or appropriate in the workplace. That will nudge the boss towards sympathy if he was thinking you were serious. But you certainly could lose your job regardless of what you say. Many of us have put our foot in our mouths at work and somehow still feed ourselves, so learn from it and don’t feel like you’re damaged goods because of this.

  65. Mb13*

    Op I think it’s time to brush up on your resume. There’s seems there’s no way to come back from this. You can’t try and explain it away. You didn’t just insulted your boss daughter but your boss and his spouse. I hope this was a valuable lesson in how being a Christan, especially what is considered a good chirtan, never makes it ok to belittle and insult other people. I think that you should volunteer at a woman’s assistance program as to see how different women live their lives differently and they are still all worthy of repect. Hopefully it will help you with your deeply rotted misogyny

  66. MommyMD*

    True Christianity is about acceptance not judgment. Boss will never look at this employee the same way. It’s not fixable, whether or not she keeps her job.

    I’m aghast.

    1. Temperance*

      Comments defining what “true Christianity” is just stigmatizes non-Christians while also enforcing the frankly incorrect stereotype that all Christians are sweet, nice, non-judgmental, etc. Can we not?

      1. Jessesgirl72*

        I agree.

        Everyone individually gets to define what Christianity means to them. They don’t get to define who is or isn’t a “true Christian”

        If my beliefs end up being wrong, I hope God is understanding- but he’s the only one who can make that call and definition. People have spent 2000 years debating the topic, and will probably spend at least 2000 more, with no definitive answer.

      2. aaanon*

        To be fair, it is possible to say “true Christianity” in that “what the actual text that Christianity says for you to do to be considered a Christian”, which is kind of what I think MommyMD is getting at. Most contemporary Christians, at least in my part of the world, fall very, very short of “true Christianity”.

        1. Jessesgirl72*

          Whose text? Whose translation? Which part of the text? How about the parts that contradict one another?

          Everyone has parts they leave out and parts they focus on.

          No, there is no way to say “true Christian”

  67. bookish*

    Whooooaaaaa.

    If you’re a devout Christian and so demure, why are you using such strong language that’s inappropriate for the workplace? How did that even slip out of your mouth at work? I’m shocked.

    Absolutely not appropriate, even if you weren’t talking about *the boss’s* *fifteen-year-old* *daughter.* (And… going out on a date, at 15? How does that make somebody out to be what you called them?? Just… so many issues here.)

    P.s. The boss has a real Donald and Ivanka vibe going, wow. He definitely sounds creepy. Still not cool to respond like you did. It would’ve been enough to say, “No, I grew up in a pretty strict household and dating wasn’t even something I was thinking about at that age.”

  68. AndersonDarling*

    Is it possible that the boss is being standoffish because he thinks that he insulted the OP first? Reading the conversation, it’s possible that the boss thinks that he insinuated that the OP was promiscuous and that is what triggered the out-of-character, defensive response.
    The two will need to sit down and air out the dirty laundry. I think there were missteps on each side and there is a possibility of reconciling, especially if they had a solid work relationship.

    1. MommyMD*

      Nope. He’s standoffish because she called his kid a horrible degrading name and insinuated that he is the reason said kid is an unmentionable.

  69. Amtelope*

    I’m not sure how the OP can walk this back. I’d apologize without an excuse — “What I said was inexcusable, and I want you to know that I’m sorry and it won’t happen again” — but also start looking for another job.

    Some things for the OP to think about going forward: first, most Americans believe that dating is appropriate and okay for teenagers, including most devout Christians. Implying that a co-worker (especially your boss!) is raising their child wrong by allowing her to date or look attractive is likely to end badly (and to be extremely confusing, since most people won’t understand why you have a problem with dating.) And, second, the word “whore” isn’t appropriate in the workplace. It’s such a strong and ugly slur that even if the relationship with the boss could have recovered from the criticism of his parenting choices, I’m not sure it can possibly recover from calling his daughter a whore.

    I think all the OP can do is try to handle similar situations better going forward. Either disengaging from the conversation or saying “actually, I didn’t date for religious reasons” would have avoided this mess.

  70. Vladimir*

    OP this is really bad. Your boss was wrong no doubt, but you were wronger. 1. You insulted his daughter, that would be bad enough, but you also 2. Insulted every single young woman who dates or dresses in certain way, and that is very very awfull. If you really think that you should take a very deep look into yourself and think how judgmental, hurtful and wrong this attitude is. 3. The fact you only understood how wrong what you said was shows that you most likely think it is normal to call other people whores whish is worrying. I think you should deeply rethink your attitude.
    As for this job I think you burned it, polish your resume and find new job, as I doubt you have future in this job. I hope you can learn from this and move from such judgmental opinions, understand why they are not acceptable and ultimately be successfull.

  71. animaniactoo*

    I don’t think that excusing that as poor wording is going to work, unless he’s willing to blatantly overlook this and accept that for the sake of peace.

    I DO think that you could talk (briefly) about how restrictive your upbringing was (even for a devout Christian), state that you have some lingering prejudices from it that you are working hard to overcome, and you are very sorry that one of them popped up there. Because I think that’s about the only way to walk back a “word choice” that was so bad that it could not be mistaken for anything else in concept, even if you used a more “tactful” word.

  72. Emi.*

    OP, were you unaware how offensive he would find the word “whore”? If so, that’s something you should probably mention in your apology.

  73. Marcia*

    My mouth is still open after my horrified gasp!

    Wow!

    Going to close my mouth, and read the comments now.

    Just, wow!

  74. Whichsister*

    Wow. Did not see that coming. At all.

    OP needs to learn to take a breath before speaking. I remember when I was in 8th grade I was “going steady” with a boy. His parents took me to one of his hockey games. His mom and I were talking and she asked me if I was taking Home Ec. My parents had told us that “if you could read, you could cook and home ec was a waste of time.” Fortunately , I caught myself before repeating this to BF’s Mom. I simply said “No my schedule doesn’t allow for it.” Turns out she had returned to school and was studying to be a home ec teacher.

  75. Health Insurance Nerd*

    Um, what? You “instinctually” responded that way?

    That’s, just, wow. You’re lucky he didn’t fire you, and you’re certainly going to have a tough time coming back from this one. Yikes.

  76. bunniferous*

    I am a devout Christian and I cannot think of how that comment was appropriate even under the most restrictive forms of my faith. I know of folks raised that way and I cannot fathom even one of THEM saying such a thing-even if inside they might have thought it a little (which to my mind is horrific to start with.)

    OP, good thing your boss is devout, because otherwise you might already have been out of a job. My advice, as one believer to another is to go and ask your boss to forgive you for what you said (to the other commenters and Alison, this is a religious answer but appropriate in this case.) Then go and sin no more!!!
    (In other words, do not call anybody a whore.)

  77. Beancounter Eric*

    OP, time to leave. Also, time for a very serious, very heartfelt apology note to your boss.

    At the same time, Boss, you need to dial back the fawning regarding your 15 YEAR OLD daughter’s looks, dating potential, etc. It’s a bit much, especially for the workplace.

    As for “culture-appropriate”-ness of 15 year-old daughters (or sons) dating….isn’t it a little young? Not an issue I will have to deal with – no kids, but I look at nieces and nephews of my wife and I, and worry that they are growing up way too fast.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve seen the full range. Plenty of my friends dated in high school, even as 9th graders. But I and a lot of my other friends didn’t date in high school at all. I don’t think it’s too young. It’s really up to the individual.

    2. The Not Mad But Occasionally Irritable Scientist*

      I certainly had romantic and sexual relationships when I was that age. Strikes me as fairly typical and unexceptional.

    3. Stellaaaaa*

      15 is a sophomore in high school. The main characters in My So-Called Life and season 1 of 90210 were 15-year-old sophomore. It’s pretty ingrained in our culture that 15 is a perfectly fine age to start dating, especially when you consider that a lot of these “dates” are group things or parties.

    4. Relly*

      Fifteen is when my sister started, in the early 90s. His mom drove them to the date and they held hands.

    5. Shadow*

      depends on what you mean by dating. I can think of a lot of parents that are okay with group dates or chaparroned dates in junior high.

      And lots of parents are okay with homecoming dates as soon as it’s a thing at school.

    6. Hrovitnir*

      I honestly feel like the sexualisation of children’s relationships is highly projected by adults – unfortunately those beliefs can be instilled in those kids and I think that has exactly the opposite effect to what’s desired.

      I was raised in a highly open, sex and body positive household. That came along with a lot of “sex is something you have when you want to.” I had a “boyfriend” when I was 9; do you know what that meant? We went ice skating together, and held hands, and kissed on the lips like… once. I didn’t kiss anyone, er, “properly” until about 3 years later than my peers, and my first sexual experience was in the context of a relationship where we were able to take months to get comfortable with it.

      If you’re not taught that everything is about sex, and it’s not something shameful but you’re entitled to take as long as you’re comfortable with it, you don’t feel like it’s something you have to rush into and hide.

  78. Beth*

    Being attractive doesn’t necessarily equate to dressing like a slut. Your “thought pattern” (I like Alison’s wording) is quite off if you only see two extremes.

    1. Relly*

      I have to quibble with this — I hate the phrase “dressing like a slut.” Dressing in a manner others might find provocative does not make someone promiscuous, and besides, “slut” generally means “woman who is having more sex than I personally think is okay.”

      1. Allison*

        I have to agree. I’m also trying to eliminate those words from my vocabulary, and say things like “dressed provocatively” or “scantily clad” or “showing a lot of skin.” But I try to avoid saying things about how women are dressed altogether, because that’s generally uncool.

        Do you remember those young adult book series that stated with “Angus, Thongs, and Full Frontal Snogging”? I had the movie on last night while making dinner, and I kept cringing internally every time someone said “Slaggy Lindsey.” Because she was attractive, and dating the guy Georgia liked. Sure, she was also mean, but I hated that they kept calling her a slag.

  79. kapers*

    I don’t think one can say “whore” in the workplace accidentally. That should not be in your office vocab.

    It’s an insulting word (to say the least) whether you were directing it specifically at the daughter or in a more general way about girls who date.

    I do believe you that it wasn’t directed specifically at daughter but please tell me you see the inherent insult and inappropriateness of using that term in the workplace.

    However, you should never have been in the position of having to answer to your boss about your attractiveness to boys! A good lesson on separating religious beliefs from work, for both of you.

  80. Turtle Candle*

    LW, I want to address this from the religious upbringing angle. I went to a private high school run by and for people who had similar views to what you’re describing: no “provocative” dress or behavior, and definitely no dating. And “provocative” dress and behavior was defined much more broadly than people in the wider culture–more so even than devout, conservative Christians of other denominations; some of the girls were not allowed to wear their hair loose after they reached puberty, for instance, as their parents considered that too sexy/sexual–and instead of dating, they (men and women, boys were not exempted from this) followed a very strict process of courtship, whereby the father gated access to the daughter. Not quite arranged marriages, but the young man petitioned the young woman’s father for each step in the process, the father vetted him pretty thoroughly, and the father could end the courtship unilaterally at any time; time spent together one-on-one even in public (going to dinner together, for example, or seeing a movie) didn’t happen for a while, and time spent together one-on-one in private only after the pair was engaged. The girl could reject a suitor at any point, but she couldn’t be courted by someone without her father’s approval, and the relationship went at a very fixed pace mandated by her father.

    I identified as Christian at that time, but neither I nor my parents were part of this subculture. I attended the school for (very long story short) reasons having to do with problems with the local public school district, and this school was the only game in town. But I did see it up close and personal for six years, and had many friends who had this approach. I will be transparent that I say that I do not (I didn’t date in high school, for a variety of reasons including the social stigma that would have accompanied it, but I definitely did as soon as I went to college), but I have some understanding of it.

    From that POV, maybe I can share a few things for you to think about:

    – Even in that subculture, referring to women as “whores” and “sluts” as casually as you did was highly uncommon, at least in my experience. (In fact, if anything, the attitude was concern for the girls; being sexually provocative was frowned upon, but I was much more likely to hear people phrase the “why I don’t let my daughters date” less as “because I don’t want them to be sluts” than as “because I don’t want them to be taken advantage of.” Which is still problematic from a white knight/pedestal POV, but it’s very different than calling a young woman a whore.) So the fact that that’s the word that leapt instinctively to your tongue is not something that is inherent to this kind of subculture or situation; it’s not just a culture difference, it’s probably something you should seriously dig into for why that’s the first thing that came to your mind as an answer (about another man’s daughter to his face, no less). I think it’s easy to brush it off as “well this is just how my religion/culture feels about dating,” and that’s why I’m emphasizing it: it is entirely possible to believe that dating is immoral and inappropriate without using those loaded, insulting terms.

    – You note that he is also a devout Christian as though that should explain why you blurted out something shocking to his face–I assume because you think that as a devout Christian, he must also agree that young women who date/who show interest in boys are sluts? But even among devout Christians, there is a lot, a lot of variance on this. Some conservative Christian subcultures allow dating so long as there’s no premarital sex, some allow a limited form of dating (only in groups, say, or chaperoned, or with a lot of restrictions on time/place), some practice courtship as I described above, and some go the full arranged-marriage route. Same thing goes with “modesty:” most conservative Christian subcultures emphasize modesty for young women, but they often do not agree on what that means–sometimes not even within a denomination or subculture (oh, the many long, long debates about sleeve length…). a lot of these things are very specific, not even necessarily to one denomination but even to one church–and they can cut both ways: the people who don’t allow their children to date but who do drink alcohol judging the ones who allow their children to date but don’t drink alcohol, and vice versa. So even just from a pragmatic point of view, you should be very wary of assuming “I can express my opinions about other peoples’ morality freely, because this person is from the same religious group as me.” It is a good way to really jam your foot in your mouth, as you have seen.

    – I have seen very clearly that the culture shock of dealing with people who have different opinions on this kind of thing; those who couldn’t just remain entirely surrounded by the church community they grew up in often had a very difficult time because their level of judgment was so high, and they’d been sort of raised to treat the world as divided into “good Christians like me and my friends/family” and “dangerously immoral people who will hurt me.” I remember being told that non-Christian men who were willing to have premarital sex were, well, basically all rapists, for instance. This can cut in two different ways: it makes it difficult, once you are outside the enclosures of the subculture, to work well with people who disagree with you on those things (if you think everyone who has premarital sex is a whore or a rapist, or if you think all atheists are just one short step away from being murderers, that kind of puts a crimp in your congenial working relationship). But it also makes it really easy to make missteps in the other direction: if you work with someone who you observe to be a good person, and especially if you think of the as a coreligionist, it can be astoundingly shocking to find out that they disagree with you on these things that you consider make-or-break moral points. I remember one of my high school classmates getting into a great deal of trouble because at her first job she was mentored by an older cashier who was absolutely lovely to her, clearly a good and kind and generous woman who went out of her way to help others. The cashier later mentioned in passing that she was divorced (and in context very clearly thought of the divorce as a good thing, and the first marriage as a youthful bad idea but not a disaster, and that none of this was a Tragedy of which she was Ashamed). My classmate blurted, “But you seemed like such a good person!” This, naturally, cooled their friendly working relationship considerably, and as far as I know it never recovered. And it’s an entirely avoidable error, that springs from categorizing people into Good and Bad and assessing where they belong based on markers like ‘attitude towards divorce’ or ‘attitude towards dating.’

    So I guess, what I’m saying, is that from someone who has seen this sort of thing play out, that it will do you well to be very, very careful about these kinds of assumptions, and to do some work on unpacking them. It will also be good for other people if you do that, of course–but since you’re the one who wrote in, I’m focusing on you. These attitudes and the free expression of them can do you a significant disservice, as you’ve discovered.

    1. CaliCali*

      This comment would be really beneficial for everyone on this thread to read. I think you’ve got a lot of relevant context here that frames her mindset.

    2. Alli*

      This is a great comment, and I also want to add that anyone whose parents referred to them as a “whore,” even indirectly, i.e., “we’re not raising a whore!” or similar (implying that failing to obey whatever command would make you a whore), likely has plenty of baggage that should probably be unpacked with the help of a counselor.

  81. Symplicite*

    Just me and my thoughts here, but I think I would leave out the reasoning ‘why’ in my apology. LW realizes that their phrasing was insensitive and a Career-Limiting-Move. Any reasoning to explain “why I said what I said” will only sound like a defending of the inappropriate comment which isn’t something the LW should want to do.

    IMHO, my take on this would be something like this:
    Boss, I am so horrifically sorry for what was said on . There is no excusing this behaviour – it was insulting to both you, your wife, and your daughter, and is not something I should ever have said. I realize that this highly inappropriate comment of mine has damaged our working relationship, but I hope that I can prove to you that this insensitive remark will not be repeated, and I can work towards earning your trust and good judgement again.

    And then I would be looking for a new job, either internally or with a different company. This comment has likely damaged the reference as well, so LW may need to stick it out a bit to repair the relationship before jumping ship.

    2. AD*

      LW realizes that their phrasing was insensitive and a Career-Limiting-Move

      Actually no she doesn’t. From the letter, her boss’s stunned reaction and the subsequent shunning is what’s given her the clue that she might have done something wrong. But I see no indication from the letter that she realizes the full scope of how this may affect her in this job.

  82. Stellaaaaa*

    Soooooooo your boss gave you a roundabout compliment as a way of possibly encouraging you to tell your own teenage dating stories? There are a few weird layers to this that are being glossed over in favor of the obvious (your boss shouldn’t be calling you pretty even if he means it well, he shouldn’t be discussing his daughter’s private social life with the office, and he shouldn’t be asking his female employees for advice on how to handle this phase of his daughter’s life) but the appropriate response is something along the lines of, “I didn’t date in high school so I can’t offer any insight.”

    I do think your boss overstepped a bit, and you might have had room to push back (few things are more annoying than when the person who’s paying you brings up their kids in ways that pressure you to offer effusive compliments. Sorry, your perfectly lovely and typical child is not a genius with model-good looks, but you’re basically paying me to say he or she is) until you revealed that your basic views of common things are really far flung from norms.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      but the appropriate response is something along the lines of, “I didn’t date in high school so I can’t offer any insight.”

      I would probably say “I’d prefer not to talk about that sort of stuff at work.”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This.
        If the boss is living in accordance with his beliefs then he knows he should be talking to his wife about this stuff. Or perhaps his mother and other family members. He knows that it is WILDLY inappropriate to be having this conversation with a subordinate. It’s a huge NO-NO in his world. And yet, here he is.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      There’s a great bit of advice for dealing with people who are being inappropriate and relying on others feeling obligated to smooth everything socially: Return the awkward to sender.

      This is like “Strap a nuclear bomb to the awkward, push the red button, toss it at your boss.”

  83. Merci Dee*

    Having grown up in a household with a father who was a Southern Baptist preacher for most of my childhood (before we switched to United Methodist during my later high school years), I can kind of get where the mind-set behind the statement came from. I realize that not everyone has the same experience growing up in a household where religion and faith are a main focus, but the households of many of my female friends operated in much the same way that mine did — where sex was a Big Deal, and it was a Bad Thing, at least until you got married. But the problem was, your parents spent so much time telling you how much of a Big Deal and a Bad Thing it was that, when you finally get married, you still have some sense of guilt over sex even though it’s supposed to be an Okay Thing now. I went through that whole thing when I got married; it’s extremely hard to let go and enjoy this new intimacy with your spouse, when the thoughts going through your head are like, “wait, I’m not supposed to be doing this . . . but wait, it’s okay now because I’m married . . . .”

    Having said that . . . .

    Making this statement about a 15-year-old girl is totally inappropriate. Or a 25-year-old woman. Or an 85-year-old woman. This statement is not okay in any way. Religious backgrounds do not excuse the statement. Because even though the idea of sex as a Bad Thing was the way my childhood church leaned, not all other churches were putting their focus where we were. Not all other churches were loading up their kids with sexual hang-ups that they were going to have to deal with well into their adult lives. Because, ultimately, that’s exactly what happened.

    OP, I think it’s incumbent upon you to examine the effects of your up-bringing, and to really hold up all of your most deeply rooted ideas on faith and religion to the light of day. Hopefully, the ideas that bring you to live in peace with and service to others will the ones that survive the examination; and the ideas that lead to condemnation of others, to the sort of “instinctive” comment that you made to the boss, will be the ones that wither and fall away. Because if you want to approach it from a religious standpoint, Jesus treated the prostitutes that he met in his travels (the woman at the well, and the woman caught in adultery) with much more sympathy and kindness than he treated the Pharisees and the Sadducees who were raised in strict religious backgrounds but had no kindness and compassion for the common people around them. In fact, Jesus called them white-washed tombs — beautiful to see on the outside, but full of rot and filth within.

    1. Pixel*

      What a beautiful, thoughtful reply. I truly appreciate reading feedback from readers with religious backgrounds, because to atheist-culturally-Jewish me this entire mindset of modesty and purity is foreign country, so my gut reaction is “nope, nope, this is so wrong” without any meaningful rationale or reason, and any feedback from me would be tainted with “she just doesn’t get it”.

  84. Symplicite*

    Ack. It should read: “Boss, I am so horrifically sorry for what was said on >date<.

    Obviously time has passed, so both have had time to stew about this. Ideally the apology should have been within the same day, if not the same hour, but as that did not happen, then inserting the date may/may not been required.

    1. phouka*

      ‘What *I* said on ”

      Not, ‘what was said’– it seems a subtle difference, but for any apology to work the LW must absolutely own that they did this it, didn’t just happen. This is not a situation where you can say “mistakes were made”.

  85. Just_Dixie*

    Something similar happened to me when I was in my early 20’s: I used a derogatory word to describe someone while in a conversation with coworkers and it came out of my mouth so effortlessly, it startled even me! It changed how my coworkers interacted with me for the rest of the time I worked there, and I cringe to this day, thirty years later. It was a pivotal moment for me and I never did anything like that again! The whole thing made me realize that I had some serious biases and was very judgmental about people who were different from myself. I learned from it, but I still feel bad that I hurt someone in the process!

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Before this thread, I hadn’t realized the benefit of being tongue-tied in reaction to awkwardness. (And thinking of a great response several days later.)

  86. Dust Bunny*

    Not accidentally, by the way.

    You didn’t mean to do it to your boss’ daughter, but you very definitely meant to insult somebody. You are wrong here no matter how you slice it, and the fact that it took that long for you to figure out why is really disturbing.

  87. OfficeWitch*

    LW Comments similar to the ones you made about your bosses daughter from members of my old church peers and family are one of the biggest reasons I suffered so unnecessarily growing up and ultimately left the church. I have since come to realize that my desire to be a ‘normal’ teenager did not mean I was in any way lesser than them, and also did not make me a bad person. You need to apologize to your boss for your outburst, and also you need to stop normalizing your bosses obsessive conversations about his daughter by changing the subject. His behavior of objectifying his daughter is equally as harmful, and is a bad habit that needs to be broken as well, as I see it having a negative effect on her sense of self worth as well.

  88. Thursday Next*

    I have a glimmer of empathy for the OP in that I wouldn’t want my boss referring in any way to my teenage dating life. It seems like that might have played a role in the OP’s response, where she invokes how her parents raised her–her wording indicates that she’s positioned herself as a child in relation to her parents, not as a professional interacting in the workplace.

    But that doesn’t excuse what she said one bit. It may help the OP in providing some context in her apology: “I was brought up in an environment that espoused extreme and misogynistic views, and heard this kind of language often. As an adult, I recognize that this kind of misogynistic worldview is completely inappropriate, and I apologize for reverting to it.”

    1. OfficeWitch*

      I 100% agree that context is key when making the apology – it does in no way excuse her actions but if the OP truly digs deep to explore why she used those exact words I agree that it might be an eye opener for her, and if those exact words were used on her as a teen, maybe she herself will start to heal.

    2. Shadow*

      i keep wondering if he was just opening up about his daughter starting to date because he wanted the ops advice.

  89. Rebecca*

    Open mouth, insert foot, bite down hard.

    Oh my. I don’t even know how to come back from that.

  90. JamToday*

    I grew up around some fairly conservative Christian fundamentalists, and I don’t recall any of them having rudeness as a mainstay of their religious doctrine.

    LW, start looking for another job. The relationships in your current office are never going to be repaired, regardless of people’s ability to paper over their disgust with your appalling manners with courtesy and civility.

  91. That guy*

    I don’t think there’s anything you can do to fix this. If I was your boss I would find a reason to fire you.

  92. Literary Engineer*

    Oh man. Honestly depending on the industry I may have fired you for that, OP. I’m trying to say that as nicely as possible. I don’t want to think that you’ve got any malice in you, but what you said was horribly cruel. From what I’m reading I understand that you grew up in an environment where those kind of words weren’t horrible and backed that up with it having to do with your faith and that would be the problem in a lot of industries.

    I would immediately be worried how you are treating customers who are openly gay, transgendered, atheist, or any whole host of things. At the very least we would sit down with the non-discrimination policy and discuss how you’re going to correct that mindset. If you weren’t customer facing then it would be less of an issue for me as a manager, but I’d still want to talk to you about this.

    1. Here we go again*

      “I would immediately be worried how you are treating customers who are openly gay, transgendered, atheist, or any whole host of things.”

      Seriously? The OP messed up and had a knee-jerk reaction to a situation, but this seems like a huge leap to say she’s being “discriminatory.”

      1. Literary Engineer*

        When a word that harsh is “kneejerk” absolutely. It tells me she doesn’t notice when she’s saying really horrible things. We have no way of knowing from the letter if she’s had other problems like this that have been written off ans being naive. At the very least, as I said, we’d have a talk about it to protect both my business and her professional reputation.

      2. Cube Ninja*

        I’d suggest making a brain-edit to this:

        “I would immediately be worried how you are treating anyone else you might conceivably work with.”

        2. Here we go again*

          But that statement is COMPLETELY different from saying it is based on race, religion or any other class (protected or otherwise), which is how Literary Engineer phrased it. The implication that OP is homophobic or a religionist is not appropriate.

          1. Literary Engineer*

            Where I was coming from with that was in my experience people who speak like this tend to have a very set level of things they are inherently biased against. It wasn’t based on race/religion/class of the people she’s talking TO but of the background she’s talking FROM.

            The things that popped into my mind was from jump the usual things that come up when “freedom of religion”. I don’t think that the OP is a horrible person, but I do think that she has horrible judgement about what is and is not, acceptable in a workplace.

            That being said, I can totally see how it could be taken that way, my wording was off and I apologize.

          2. Amtelope*

            The OP says that she made this shockingly awful comment as a kneejerk reaction because of her religious upbringing. Christian denominations that are so conservative that they teach that dating is wrong almost always also teach that homosexuality and atheism are wrong. I think it’s appropriate to be concerned about whether the OP would make similar “kneejerk” comments in the context of talking about someone being LGBT or an atheist.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        No, not a huge leap.

        I would not consider myself an especially tolerant person but there are a lot of insults that don’t even enter my mind, at work or otherwise, and this one is one of them. It shouldn’t even be on the short list of things to call somebody in a moment of frustration.

  93. Gene*

    I know some legal professional sex workers (think Nevada), and that word would never cross my lips while talking with them. Holy Hanukah Balls, Batman!

    Serious walk back is in order here. And while your religion and upbringing may be part of it, don’t use it as an excuse.

  94. Dolly*

    I know sometimes when you’re annoyed, it’s tempting to say something really snide or mean to convey the level of your frustrations, but don’t do it. Keep it to yourself, if you can’t stop it altogether, and wait for a moment when you’re calmer to address the REAL issue here. Just my two cents, as someone else who gets easily frustrated and trying to make up for a lifetime of passive aggression.

  95. Leslie Knope*

    Hi OP,

    I doubt this comment will get much notice since it’s so far down the comment chain but I just wanted to share something that’s been helpful to me. I was raised in a conservative Christian religion and still practice it. I remember starting to feel a sense of incongruity as a teenager between the teachings of Christ and some actions/comments of those people I went to church with. It was pretty jarring to realize that people weren’t perfect (something that’s pretty obvious now but weird when you’re a teenager). It was then I started to see a difference between the actual teachings of my church and people’s personal opinions and constructs that culturally developed.

    I offer this up as a perspective because I think the comments previous to mine have done a good job illustrating that there are some major things for you to evaluate in how you view the world. But, I don’t want you to feel like this is also by default a direct attack on your personal religious beliefs. I think it’s valuable to go back to the roots of your religious faith and see if there are differences between how people have implemented these ideas and the ideas themselves. You may find that the actual principles you’ve been taught are also sexist/problematic or you may find that the actual teachings resonate with you but the way people have decided to make sure they’re enforced are the problem.

    Example: maybe a distilled principle is the value and gift of your body and the importance of self-control. However, people may have culturally created a structure where x, y, z behaviors result in you being a “whore” as a way of discouraging individuals from participating in certain behavior to make sure you valued your body a certain way and exercised self-control a certain way.

    I think intense self-reflection and pondering on your world view can actually enhance your faith and quality of life. However, I’d just like to point out that it’s possible that the way you’ve been taught is incorrect but that doesn’t necessarily mean that everything you believe is wrong.

    Consider this experience an amazing learning tool for you to start coming to terms with what you as an individual believe and how you can improve. Everyone finds a point at life where they are met with an opposing world view or perspective. This may have been a more extreme opportunity than others, but that doesn’t mean it’s any less possible to turn into something positive. Recognize and own that you’ve made a huge mistake and regardless of whether or not you reconcile with your boss, use it as a reason and tool to help reframe your way of thinking.

    When I read your response I was horrified, as are many others in the comments section. Hopefully you can recognize the seriousness of the situation and begin some intense self-reflection.

    2. Chestnut-Haired Sunfish*

      Coming out of lurker mode for the first time to say what a lovely comment this is, Leslie (and great username)! I think that while condemning the OP’s actions is somewhat useful in that it will help her see just how far outside the norm her comments were, this is the kind of empathetic, helpful response that Alison has done such a good job making space for on the site. Thanks for commenting!

  96. Mimosa Mixer*

    I was a manager for 5 years in corporate America and it was my experience that people who come from very strict, religious households often times are the ones who get into trouble at work because they are too rigid, ignorant and make crude comments. Many of them simply have little to no self-awareness about what is appropriate/inappropriate. They don’t understand that their comments are rude. I am not saying all religious people are like this. I am simply citing my personal experience from when I was a manager.

    My most memorable employee was a very religious young women who one day told her gay coworker that his lifestyle disgusted her and that homosexuality is a sin in her eyes. I had to pull her aside and tell her that her comments were rude and completely inappropriate in the work place. She got offended and was flabbergasted that I defended her coworker, because in her opinion, his being gay meant he should not be defended. I told her that her religious beliefs did not give her the right to insult or belittle anyone, especially at work. I wrote her up and she tried to appeal with HR, who sided with me. She truly did not believe that what she had said was an insult. She eventually apologized to her coworker after others found out about her comments and shunned her for them, and she told another coworker that she was sick of getting into trouble for speaking honestly about her beliefs.

    The problem with that kind of thinking is that she felt her religion made her better than others and gave her the right to say whatever she wanted. That is very ignorant. She was eventually terminated because she continued to be a problem with others- creating hostility amongst her peers. She once told a Jewish employee that he needed to “stop wearing that ridiculous hat. You look idiotic and you’re embarrassing yourself and everyone in this office!”

    OP needs to think before she speaks next time and if she has any doubt whatsoever about the comment she wants to say, she should exercise caution and just not say it. Better to remain silent sometimes.

    1. Czhorat*

      In fairness, OP seems to have realized – belatedly, but still realized – that she had stepped out of line. Ability to learn is what’s most important, and so long as she has that she can do better next time.

      1. Chickaletta*

        I think OP realized that she accidentally called the boss’s daughter a whore, and she regrets that, but in her letter she doesn’t seem to understand that calling *anyone* a whore based on her opinion of how they dress and socialize is the real problem.

        To Mimosa’s point, I get the conservative Christian thinking that leads to this. I ran with a conservative bunch in college with an on-campus Christian group. One time, one of the girls came out as lesbian, and all of her friends in the group decided that they had to stop being her friend because they really believed that was the right thing to do. They felt that staying her friend was the same thing as condoning her sexual orientation and that was like turning their back on God. There was a lot of this type of thinking going on.

        When you’re on the inside, it all makes sense to you and anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t “walking with God” or has fallen prey to “worldly ways”. There is a sharp line with God on one side and the world (ie Satan) on the other, and you know exactly which side you should be on. But, when I started to realize how hurtful this was to others, how narrow-minded and hypocritical, I stopped thinking like that. I still believe in God, I didn’t throw him out just because I didn’t agree with some of his followers, but I have adjusted my thinking to a place where I believe everyone deserves love and respect, not judgment, and that is what God calls me to do. The universe is complex and I don’t pretend anymore to know how God judges people, or if He even does. Our job is to treat people with kindness, and I wish more Christian followers would get that these days.

    2. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      who one day told her gay coworker that his lifestyle disgusted her and that homosexuality is a sin in her eyes…She once told a Jewish employee that he needed to “stop wearing that ridiculous hat. You look idiotic and you’re embarrassing yourself and everyone in this office!”

      ?????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      I’m so glad your company stood up for those employees.

      1. Mimosa Mixer*

        Yes, HR had a field day when they heard about that one! She did not last long at the company at all. That woman created problems out of thin air simply because she had no filter and could not be bothered to analyze her thoughts before vocalizing them.

        1. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

          That’s so awful for the employees who had to hear her nonsense. At least the company taking action let them know they had support and she really was an outlier.

    3. Matt*

      As someone who grew up in this environment (and also worked in it professionally) it isn’t so much always about thinking yourself “better” than anyone else. You think you’re in the right because you’re speaking “God’s Truth” and even sometimes when it gets you in trouble, that can reinforce your “I’m in the right” line of thinking. They can interpret it as a “trial from God.” They view you, as an outsider of the religious community as “lost, part of the evil world, the hand of the devil, etc…” whether they’ll say it to your face or not. I’ve been in these groups where workers talk about their non religious managers/co workers laying out work place policies as acts of the devil that they are being trialed through. Most situations were trivial (for instance, one woman had to go on a work conference with a “lesbian” and so it was going to a work trip of “testing.”

  97. Relly*

    Hey, OP, I could be way off base, but I want to talk to you for a second.

    Our culture sometimes encourages women to compete — we fall into a strange Madonna / whore complex. Good Girls Don’t, and Bad Girls Do. As if the decision to engage in sex falls strictly under whether or not you’re a moral person, as a woman, and note that men are left out of that calculus.

    I was a Good Girl. I assumed Bad Girls were immoral and rolled my eyes. Deep down, I was envious — I was an awkward teenage girl who wasn’t getting sexualized attention from boys, and assumed it’d be heavenly to have some.

    Around this time, my older sister developed: double Ds on a stick thin Olive Oyl frame. She hated every second of it. She got attention — for her body, not for her mind. Boys were interested in her as an object. Any top she wore looked provocative — she’d swim in the sleeves and still strain the cleavage.

    Being a teenager is confusing and exhausting. For me, sitting on the sidelines, I called prettier girls names in my head because I wished I could be noticed. For my sister, she wished she could be ignored again.

    Add in to this mix hormones, a society that tells us you’re a prude if you don’t want sex but a slut if you have it, and discovering how intoxicating love and intimacy can be, and that’s a crazy mix.

    Your boss’s daughter is in a chaotic time of her life right now. Maybe she dresses provocatively because she likes attention; maybe she just likes the ways the clothes fit. Maybe she likes dating boys. Maybe she’s confused and nervous about the way they look at her. Maybe she’s saving herself. Maybe she had a three way with two football stars.

    None of that makes her a Good Girl OR a Bad Girl. She’s a girl, becoming a woman, navigating rough waters and trying to find her footing. It’s a scary enough time without people slapping labels on.

    Girls who do aren’t whores. Girls who don’t weren’t prudes. We’re all just people, trying to find love and acceptance, trying on new identities, trying to find ourselves, learning what we like and what we don’t, what we’ll stand for and what we can’t accept.

    If you can see your boss’s daughter as that — a girl walking that balance beam — it becomes harder to label her, or anyone, a whore. People are complex and real. Labels don’t fit.

  99. SheLooksFamiliar*

    ‘Boss, I have no excuse for what I said…’ should begin your apology to him – because you have absolutely no excuse. Previous posters have explained why – Turtle Candle and Temperance did so especially well – so I won’t belabor the reasoning, nor share my own history of being raised by devout fundamentalist Christians. It’s reflected by other posters as well. I will only say that devout Christians inflicted the most horrific abuse (verbal, emotional, physical, and sexual), fear, and despair I’ve ever experienced, and they all claimed deniability because of their interpretation of scripture.

    I’m not saying your comment is on the same level, just devotion to religion is no excuse for cruelty. Please, don’t wrap your actions in your piety and expect a free pass for what you said.

    And please think about starting a job search soon, because even if you are sincerely sorry for what you said, and for the damage your words caused, you may not be able to fix your relationship with your boss. He’s still a dad whose employee insulted his daughter, and I don’t think his own (presumed) piety will convince him otherwise.

  100. LuvzALaugh*

    Just so another intolerant stereotype doesn’t start circulating : Christianity does not forbid dating. sex outside of marriage is frowned upon. Some Christian parents do mistakenly think that not allowing their children to date will keep them from having sex. They are not the only ones who make that error.

    1. Temperance*

      Actually, no, you are wrong here. Certain sects of Christianity *do* forbid dating. The sect I belong to strongly discourages it now, thanks to that book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”.

      1. Czhorat*

        I think LAL meant that Christianity as a whole does not; that to stereotype Christians based on this is as unfair as any other stereotyping.

        1. Temperance*

          But there is not “Christianity as a whole”. There are so many different sects, and it’s pretty disingenuous to pretend that the very right wing/convservatives aren’t there.

    2. Amtelope*

      I think the OP is using “Christian” to refer to the brand of conservative Christianity she was raised in. Many conservative Christian groups do simply refer to themselves as “Christian” rather than with a denominational name. I think that can be one source of confusion for kids raised in these groups, when other Christians (people who belong to mainstream Protestant churches, or even to less conservative non-denominational churches) don’t follow the rules they’ve learned as “Christian.”

      1. MegaMoose, Esq*

        If the OP’s flavor of Christianity is similar to that my spouse was raised in, they were probably taught that less conservative Christians aren’t Christian at all.

        1. Maxwell Edison*

          Heh, this reminds me of when my Catholic sister found out the hard way that some Protestants don’t consider Catholics to be Christians.

      2. aaanon*

        Yup. Raised in one of these non-denominational extremely conservative sects of Christianity and we literally did not think Baptists(BAPTISTS OK) were good enough to get into heaven/be REAL Christians. So this kinda thing runs very, very deep.

  101. Ginger*

    The only thing I could think is maybe English isn’t her first language and the meaning of the word got lost in translation somehow?

    2. Kala*

      I wondered if this original conversation may not have happened in English, and was translated into what is harsher wording in American English.

      1. Kala*

        After reading the thread more, apparently some other commenters are saying that this is a phrase. I wonder if it’s a localized/regional thing, because I’ve never heard it before.

  102. Stephanie the Great*

    Yeah I just… this is wrong on so many levels that I don’t know where to begin. I don’t believe you can salvage this relationship, let alone deserve to, because, for all the great reasons people have described above, you have certainly damaged it irreparably. You need to chalk this up to a very costly, very egregious decision, and an eye-opening learning opportunity, and move on. And your boss deserves an apology, despite the fact it will not repair your working relationship.

    You need to spend some time with yourself and really think about why you thought anything you said in this context was appropriate. And never, ever provide unsolicited commentary about other people’s relationships, sexuality, or sex lives. Really, that’s a good idea for just about anything.

  103. Anon for this*

    I think I’m looking at this a little differently on a couple of fronts.
    1. I don’t think the boss is necessarily being all that inappropriate. Sure, he’s talking about how pretty his kid is, but well, so do lots of parents. If it was a mom, I don’t think anyone would be making much of an issue about it. And the teenage dating thing just takes your whole focus when it starts. And I say this as a mom with a teenage boy that recently had his first girlfriend and first break up. It had nothing to do with sex, it had to do with it being a very real, very tangible example that they are their own people forming their own connections with the world. It’s a whole new realm of parenting to navigate. I definitely talked about him starting dating at work. We’re casual here and talk about our personal lives more than we probably should.

    2. I don’t know how to explain this, but I get this being an “instinctively” said phrase. It was a fairly common phrase when I was in high school. Yes, it was awful and usually used in context of gossiping about a teenage pregnancy or someone wearing super short shorts or something like that. (Can you believe that so-and-so wore that/did that? No, but my parents didn’t raise a whore!) When it was used, it was more to get the point across that we thought something was really inappropriate, not that we actually thought the person was a whore. It was sorta it’s own kind of slang that well, is just awful and just wouldn’t have been said if it had been thought all the way through about the real meaning of that word. It’s not something I’d say or even *think* now, but I get it still being something that someone could fall back on when you probably heard it hundreds of times while growing up.

    1. Shadow*

      Agreed. It’s amazing how much I cringe when I watch old shows, movies, cartoons or hear the older generation in my family explain their political views.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      The boss talking about how great his daughter is isn’t the real problem, though it is a little bit weird to keep on about at work. The real problem (before the OP called the boss’s daughter a whore) is this:

      One day a couple weeks ago, my boss was talking as usual about how his daughter is very attractive and wants to start dating. Then he paused, looked at me, and said “I bet you had that problem!”

      Seems to imply the boss is sizing up the employee as attractive. The employee’s attractiveness should not be a subject of discussion unless the employee’s job is to be a fashion model.

      1. fposte*

        I think that’s why it’s a stupid thing to say in the workplace, but it also was absolute pro forma empty flattery for a long time, so I don’t think it means that this particular boss is thinking in this particular way.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, I’m not questioning the intent but the impact. The boss surely meant it to be an innocuous (and supposedly not work-inappropriate) compliment.

          1. Student*

            If you bend any farther backwards to excuse this comment, your back might snap.

            He called the OP sexually attractive – a person who gets hit on by men frequently. He literally said that he thinks she is attractive enough that she must get asked out a lot. How much clearer does he have to be about calling her sexually attractive for you to call this spade a spade?

            Yes, calling someone sexually attractive is indeed intended to be a complement. That doesn’t mean it’s appropriate in a boss/subordinate setting, or that it is good for the OP that her boss finds her sexually attractive AND is willing to comment on it to her face in public. “I bet you’re great in bed” is also usually meant as a complement but it is still not appropriate for a boss to say to his subordinate in a meeting.

            1. Czhorat*

              Agreed.

              There is no planet on which the appropriate response is ” your daughter is a whore”.

              That isn’t really a good response to anything. Ever.

            2. Anonymous Educator*

              I hope you don’t think I was trying to excuse the comment. I was doing the exact opposite. No matter how much of the benefit of the doubt you give the boss intent-wise, the impact is still the same—judging an employee by attractiveness, which is creepy as hell.

            3. TL -*

              I’m not sure about that – I have definitely described people as beautiful or attractive or whatever without feeling any sexual desire towards them whatsoever.
              I usually say “conventionally attractive/beautiful” to specifically refer to a person who meets societal standards of beauty because I want to acknowledge there is a difference between who I find sexually attractive and who we think of as good-looking. But a lot of people don’t differentiate with words between the two concepts and you have to listen to tone.
              Without tone, and given that the OP clearly has some issues to unpack around this, I think it’s harder to definitely come down one way or the other with the dad.

            4. Another Sarah*

              Am I the only one who read that comment as “She wants to start dating and I don’t want to let her, I bet you had that problem growing up” i.e. wanting to start dating?
              I didn’t think he was saying anything about her attractiveness one way or the other, just her shared experience with his daughter of growing up in a devout Christian household where dating rules are stricter than those of her peers.

              1. Turtle Candle*

                You’re not the only one. It’s a fairly common point of… almost commiseration? in my experience of that type of subculture; there’s a lot of acknowledgement of “when I was that age I was interested in boys/girls too, sigh, teenagers are hard.” Even among the families that were strictest about not dating, there was an acknowledgement that boys and girls starting to be interested in each other at that age was normal–sinful to pursue, in their minds, but normal. So you definitely got a lot of, kind of, wry, “You remember what that was like, right?” among the adults.

                (Which in a way makes the LW’s comment likely to sting even more; it’s like trying to commiserate on “I’m trying to get up earlier but it’s so hard to pry myself out of my nice warm bed” and hear “actually I leap right out because I’m not a lazy slob.” Looking for commiseration and getting the opposite.)

                That may not at all be what he meant, and it’s still IMO a very weird thing to say to an employee (although it’s also a very different employer/employee relationship than I’d used to, because I would never think to discuss my religion at work, let alone ‘many times’), but I’ve heard very similar things in contexts that were clearly not lascivious in any way.

    3. fposte*

      Sure, and the same could be said with racial and anti-gay slurs–people grow up with all kinds of vicious stuff. It’s not that nobody understands that you could have heard this, it’s that it’s a horrible thing to say anywhere and a ridiculously horrible thing to say to the boss.

    4. seejay*

      It was fairly common in highschool but when were you in highschool? Word meanings change over the years and things that we said when we were teenagers become less acceptable (or more acceptable) over time.

      Sure that word may have been less loaded 25 years ago, but it’s definitely not acceptable now, especially from an adult. Teenagers saying it might have a bit more of a pass since teenagers say stupid things and haven’t quite learned the filter between brain and mouth and how to navigate social norms properly. An adult working in a Fortune 500 company should know better at this stage, and if they don’t, they’re getting a really good harsh lesson very quickly about what they should and shouldn’t say.

    5. Rachael*

      As I stated below in my comments I am inclined to believe that the OP thinks certain topics are more inappropriate than others and the boss was being more casual and less frequent that she implies. I talk about how gorgeous my daughter and son are all the time and, I believe, that I’ve even joked to another coworker that as a “pretty person” they understand and us “normies” just don’t get it. Laughs all around.

  104. The Kurgen*

    I couldn’t help but laugh after reading the “whore” comment. It reminds me of something Angela from The Office would say.

  105. Grabapple McGee*

    Wow.

    Hopefully English is not your first language and maybe you can blame it on that and apologize.

    But if not, well I don’t think an apology is going to fix this. To me, this is one of those “brain blurts” where what wwas said is really what was meant. I can imagine your frustration at hearing him talk about his daughter like that repeatedly. And the “I bet you know about that” was really creepy. But still. Wow. You just don’t voice those thoughts, even when it isn’t your boss.

    Good luck.

  106. Rachael*

    I think we need to take into consideration that she thinks things are inappropriate that others don’t due to her beliefs. Therefore, I can conclude that her boss most likely was not as creepy as she reports due to her views on how men and women should behave. I’m thinking that boss does what I do and talks about how beautiful his daughter is once in a while and it perks her ears up as inappropriate. Therefore, I am hesitant to say the boss is being creepy if she jumps on the “whore” train at the mention of dating.

    This just makes me sad. My mother went straight to “whore” if I even as much showed any part of my shape in my clothes. I was blessed/cursed with an hourglass figure and she went out of her way to make me wear baggy clothes and to scrutinize any interaction with the male sex. If boys talked to me it was obvious that I was sleeping with them.

    OP, please realize that your views on how women should behave are considered offensive when you make it clear that any girl/women who behaves a certain way is a whore. If there was anyone else in the room with you two they probably are marveling over what you said, as well.

    You most likely are not sorry for what you said. You believe what you said and I don’t think you can really explain your way out of it because while you didn’t call the daughter a whore directly you insinuated that girls who behave the way the daughter is behaving are whores. So, you did in fact call her one.

    If I were you, I would chalk this up to “Things I don’t say to people” and apologize that you used a phrase that was inappropriate. Unfortunately, you are going to have to live with the awkwardness until this blows over.

    1. JS*

      We don’t know exactly what was said in its entirety. But if her boss is continuously and unsolicited bringing up how his daughter is “perfect tall blonde” then I don’t think she took anything out of context. That’s objectifying the hell out of your own daughter and that’s unbelievably creepy. IMO, the use of the word “whore” here is referring to how the Dad is actively bragging and grooming his daughter to date, this is how a pimp talks, not a Dad.

      1. Rachael*

        If she thinks that it is inappropriate to be interested in dating and girls bringing attention to themselves I’m sure that she thinks it inappropriate to give attention to your daughter by commenting on how they look. I find it interesting that people admonish the OP for talking about calling a girl a whore, but accepting the OP’s view on what the father said about his daughter. I feel that her views on not drawing attention to girl’s looks may color her views on what is appropriate for someone to say about a girl.

        1. JS*

          I think it’s unhelpful to question whether OP was right or wrong on their views about the father mentioning his daughter. You are assuming she thinks it’s inappropriate to date at that age and also assuming what she defines as dating. In my take, dating is where a sexual relationship is possible which in my view is inappropriate for a 15 year old. Having a “crush” and hanging out with them is different. However that is completely 100% subjective and I bet each person in the comment section would have a slightly varied take on it. Bottom line though dating life shouldn’t be discussed at work with your boss if that’s not close established relationship you have. The boss crossed the line, as Alison mentioned by going as far as to say “I bet you had that dating problem too”.

          1. Rachael*

            It is definitely helpful. I don’t trust her judgement when it comes to how men interact with women. If she reacts so strongly to a girl behaving a certain way and grew up where you don’t compliment girls that way then you bet that I feel that she may have a skewed idea of what is appropriate to say.

            1. JS*

              Thats the whole point though, we can’t judge her judgement because we dont know what the boss said, we know the topic but we don’t know his tone, what details he gave, etc. you are only assuming she is overreacting or having an averse reaction. I am going off purely what she said the boss said and the numerous times he brought it up, which if even innocent is inappropriate. Regardless of whether her judgement is right/wrong, it isn’t helpful because regardless of the tone/context the fact the boss is talking about dating life and then making reference’s to OPs is inappropriate. Her reaction regardless is inappropriate as “whore” is not something that should ever come out of your mouth at work and is inappropriate. So in her case its more about rectifying/salvaging the situation. So many people are focusing in on the OPs views on teenage dating and the “whore” comment insulting the daughter that they aren’t focusing on the actual issue of both the boss and OP inappropriate work conduct.

              1. Rachael*

                I understand where you are coming from but I grew up with a mother with these type of values and she did, in fact, view everyday comments and interactions through a different lens. Everyday banter and innocent comments were misconstrued daily and us girls were constantly accused of being “inappropriate” as well as many, many males who interacted with us.

                Frankly, I feel that I need to stick up for this manager who is being accused of being “creepy”, “inappropriate”, and generally being run through the gauntlet as if he is a sex offender. People who see the world through that lens make everyday interactions uncomfortable with their accusations and judgments.

      2. Another Sarah (but not a Sarah if you know what I mean)*

        But you’re taking as read that he actually did that – I mean there are so many ways for that to come up in conversation that wouldn’t even flag on my radar. I agree with Rachael, I don’t think OP is a reliable narrator on this subject when what might have happened is something more like:
        “Boss how was your weekend?”
        “OK, I had to take my daughter shopping for clothes AGAIN, she’s growing out of everything so fast, I don’t know how I managed to get this perfect tall blonde kid when I’m so ugly, dark haired and shortarsed haha, she definitely takes after her mother.”

        1. JS*

          Sure. That one innocent comment but if every personal conversation goes back to his “perfect fall blonde kid” then that’s when it’s creepy and it’s a problem. OP said herself it was unsolicited information so either the boss is turning every chance of personal conversation into about his daughters dating life or he’s is just bringing it up on his own. Either way the continued topic isn’t really appropriate. While OK to mention in passing it’s really weird that he is giving updates on his daughter like that to his subordinate. Plus no matter what he did cross the line when he said “I bet you had that problem too when dating” that pretty much makes a comment on OP attractiveness and dating life and I could NEVER imagine any of my male bosses I had ever making that comment.

          1. Another Sarah*

            Again, I read that differently – it seemed to me from the OP when he said “I bet you had that problem growing up” that he was talking about the last thing he said – which was that his daughter wanted to start dating – the implication being he wasn’t letting her, so “I bet you had that problem” was about OP wanting to date as a teenager in a strict household. Not about OP’s attractiveness.

            If his family is the primary thing going on in his life, he’s going to talk about it. If currently he’s dealing with his daughter wanting to stretch her boundaries, he’s going to talk about it.

            If every conversation is about it yes, it’s creepy and inappropriate, no argument there. My point is that I just wouldn’t assume from what I’ve read about this OP’s attitude to the subject that it actually is every conversation and there’s not a little unconscious bias there.

            1. Rachael*

              I hesitate to take her judgement of what a father should say about his daughter due to her bad judgement in responding to her daughter wanting to date. “Constantly” bringing up a topic could very well be someone just talking about it normally, but because it is taboo for a girl bring attention to herself it is probably taboo for a man to bring attention to the girl as well. Usually when I don’t want to hear about something it feels like someone talks about something alot just because I’m more sensitive to it.

            2. JS*

              Ah, I always have heard “I bet you have that problem” in response to the problem of attracting so many boys and the fawning. I didn’t think the problem was dating because from the context either it seems as the boss was excited/bragging about his daughter dating rather than being hesitant about it.

              There might be some bias, as there is bias in everyone but given the context OP gave, the boss was inappropriately crossing the line in either frequency, details, or context in the dating conversation (or maybe all 3) to the point where it made her feel uncomfortable. Everyone has their boundaries which non-work topics like these that can take on a sexual nature everyone needs to respect everyone else limits. Her response is inappropriate for work but judging whether she should have been upset or not is unhelpful since this isnt a work conversation they needed to be having.

  107. DCompliance*

    I would like to know why the OP responded the way she did. I think it is more than being raised a certain way. It comes off like the OP was bothered or feeling insecure about something…perhaps her boss’s comments. But there are better was of responding when something makes your uncomfortable that do not resort to name calling.

  108. LN*

    Okay, there’s….a lot to unpack here. While I have to agree with the whole “examine your attitude on women” thing, it’s probably beyond the scope of actionable steps the OP is going to take away from this thread right now.

    “Whore” is not a workplace-appropriate word. It is DEFINITELY not a boss-appropriate word. Erase it from your work vocabulary, the same way you would any other coarse language.

    Your relationship with your boss has been damaged by this. To what extent, it’s hard to say. You should apologize, of course, but it’s possible – likely even – that your apology won’t be received well. This is because you made a statement that can only be interpreted as a very serious insult to your boss’s daughter. I think the sexual/romantic context of this muddies the waters a bit for some people, so instead consider this conversation:

    “I’m really struggling to keep my son focused on his homework, because he’s so active and spends so much time at football practice.” *turns to athletic, high-energy co-worker* “I bet you had that problem, haha!”
    “No, because my parents didn’t raise a f***ing idiot.”

    A response like that is:
    – weirdly defensive
    – very insulting
    – strangely hostile

    And as such, tends to reflect really poorly on the person who said it, without much room for re-framing. Regardless of whether it was appropriate for the boss to be talking about this stuff in the office, and regardless of whether he should’ve directed it at OP like he did, the response was really hurtful and inappropriate. And OP, you’ll have to live with the consequences of that for as long as you work at this company. I don’t say that to be a debbie downer or discourage you, but you do need to be realistic about what this means for your long-term prospects there.

    2. Marisol*

      Notwithstanding the seriousness of your advice and of this situation overall, I find your imagined scenario hilarious.

    5. Turtle Candle*

      That’s something I thought of, too. The sexual and gendered element of this makes it worse, absolutely. But if it had been something more neutral–as in your example, or if the boss had said “I’m having trouble prying my daughter off the computer when it’s time for dinner–I bet you and your parents had trouble with that kind of thing too, huh?”… it’s sort of like replying with, “No, because I’m not a dull lazy couch potato.”

      It’s just extreme. As I say, the cultural and sexual elements of it make it worse, but it’d still be bad if you’d dropped a major non-sexual insult like that. It’s basically saying, “No, because I think I’m a better person than your daughter.” Fraught!

  109. Creag an Tuire*

    Ooooh boy.

    I think I’m going to disagree with AAM’s proposed wording, because, while professional and polished it sounds too much like a “sorry if you were offended” nopology, and if I were OP’s manager it would just infuriate me even further.

    OP, you didn’t “accidentally” insult your boss’s daughter. You didn’t use a poor choice of words that was misconstrued. You implied this child was a whore for having a healthy teenaged interest in boys. I literally cannot think of any alternative meaning for the words that came out of your mouth.

    If you have any chance of salvaging this relationship (and you might not), don’t apologize for a poor choice of wording implying criticism etc. etc. Apologize for being wrong. Tell him what you said was wrong, it is a wrong thing to believe, and that you completely retract and apologize for the wrong thing that you said. Don’t try to minimize your way out of this one.

    1. Madame X*

      Yes to all of this. There is really no excuse for that the LW wording. I too was raised in a Conservative Christian household (although I don’t hold conservative views myself). My parents did not encourage dating during my teenage years either, but I can’t imagine how someone would equate the desire to date as being “whore-ish”.

  111. Roker Moose*

    I can sympathise with the OP– I’m more skilled than most at opening mouth/inserting foot! I won’t pile on re: the word used, but I think the best course of action is a (genuine!) apology followed by resignation. I can’t imagine there will be any future for you at this company.

  112. Sometimes poster*

    So. My stepmother and her daughters used to tell me they don’t “engage in unchristian like behavior” when discussing me growing up. It was extremely demoralizing and embarrassing and made me feel a great deal of shame about going through natural development and social behaviors as a teen. They implied I may, in fact, be whore-like. Fast forward a decade and at 30 I was recently married after a seven year relationship, own a home, work just under executive level at a fortune 100 company, and am thinking about planning a family. Meanwhile, one daughter was a two time teen mom with a felon and the other is gay. So… even us “whores” can turn out okay. Our relationship is great now, but this was awfully unnecessary and judgemental. Please reconsider if that stance is helping you in life.

    1. LBK*

      Meanwhile, one daughter was a two time teen mom with a felon and the other is gay.

      I must be misunderstanding this, because I don’t see how being gay is a punchline of this story. So what?

      1. Creag an Tuire*

        I’m going to be charitable and assume that the “punchline” is that neither daughter ended up living a fundamentalist lifestyle, so the stepmother’s efforts at controlling her children’s behavior were for nothing.

      2. Manders*

        I think the judgy aunt came from one of those churches that believes that children raised “correctly” will be straight and remain virgins until they marry in their 20s. The joke is that neither child turned out this way, despite the aunt’s fervent belief that her way was guaranteed to produce a certain type of person.

      3. Evie*

        I don’t think sometimes poster was trying to make being gay the “punchline” as such, but talking about how people with that kind of behaviour act as though (and think that they are!) better than everyone else but they’re no more or less likely to garuntee themselves the idyllic lifestyle they think they’re deserving of.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t think you realize that you are being rather judgmental with this comment.

      Implying that you have the moral high ground because you are married and have a good job while your stepsisters are a teenage mom and gay is no better than the things they said to you as a teen.

      1. Observer*

        I don’t think Sometimes Poster is implying anything about the moral high ground from her perspective. But it is ironic that the people who condemned her un-Christian behavior wound up engaging in behavior that is considered FAR less desirable than getting married and having a good job, to put it mildly.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          If that’s the case, then there was no need to include all of her personal accolades in the comment.

          1. Jessie the First (or second)*

            I see the point – it’s that she is living a life that the stepfamily assumed a “whore” wouldn’t ever live. That from their perspective, she has the life “good girls” are supposed to grow up to have, and they always said she wasn’t a good girl. And that the steps assumed they themselves were “good girls,” and yet they have lived lives they would have derided as sinful/whoring/etc.

            Or, she could be making a point about how people judged her but she turned out way better than they did because one of them is *gay* for pete’s sake. But I’m going the charitable route and assuming she means it as in my first paragraph.

          2. Observer*

            No, that’s just the point. It’s like “You called me un-christian, but it turns out that my life looks a lot more like your brand of Christianity than that of your children.

          3. Marisol*

            It heightens the dramatic irony. She could have left those details out, but it reinforces her point that her aunt’s philosophy toward child rearing was wrong in that (among other things) her methods didn’t bring about the desired outcome. Without more clarification from Sometimes poster we can’t really know what her intention was but I don’t think she was making an anti-gay statement. I agree with Manders’ and Observer’s interpretation above.

  113. AnonMarketer*

    I have nothing to add other than: OP, be grateful you weren’t fired on the spot. Your boss is far more considerate and tolerant than you give him credit for.

    1. JS*

      I think if she was fired on the spot he could have a lawsuit on his hands. Him speaking on his daughter in a sexual attractiveness manner and dating life more than a few times and unsolicited is creepy. It almost goes into sexual harassment territory. (As a sidenote: I’ve seen HR reprimand a man at a former job who would go on and on about how attractive certain female celebrities were and would try to get others into the conversation about what features he liked and what he would rate them. So depending on the situation this could go that way as well).

      Either way I think they were both in the wrong and way over the line. I think he has just as much to be embarrassed about imo.

  114. Not Your Honey*

    I can’t decide if this letter makes me sad or angry. Internalised misogyny is a cancer.

  115. Aphrodite*

    OP, I just went back and re-read your post and what struck me about it is that you don’t give any indication that you think or want to think differently. I’m guessing that you feel your beliefs are right and correct. If that is the case, then you would have no reason to re-examine them; you are sorry that you said what you did given your boss’ reaction but you don’t deny what you said is still how you feel.

    If that is indeed the case then I agree with those who say you need to polish up your resume. Regardless of how you apologize (or defend) you will be unable to take those words back. The fact that your boss is now standoffish means he is no longer comfortable working with you. You can be polite and professional from now on but you will never recover from this with him.

    1. MashaKasha*

      Yes, that jumped out at me too.

      In my 20 years as an active church member in my 20s and 30s, I met quite a few creepy, sleazy men who claimed to be devout, were active in church, and filled their friends’ Facebook feed with posts on religion and how we need to bring God back into the lawmaking and the running of the country… this guy certainly comes across as one of them.

  117. Jen Veenay*

    Well, I agree with what many have already said: 1) I made a little yelping sound when I read what was said, and 2) this was career-limiting, at least at this company and with these people.

    One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that your comment came across not just as extremely rude, but also opening contemptuous toward your boss, which I get. You’re sick of his monologues about his beautiful offspring and he pushed pretty far trying to engage you in his adoration of her with his creepy question. But once you show your hand with that kind of contempt and aggression, there aren’t any words to make people forget, and it can become definitive about how they see you from here on out.

    If it were me, and frankly I have made a monumental @ss of myself on more than one occasion in my past, I would cut bait only to shorten the duration of my own shame at having to look at those folks every day after that situation.

  118. TootsNYC*

    Here is one other point that I don’t think has been made.

    My sister once lived next door to a woman who would scream and swear at her children in the front yard and call her 6yo daughter “bitch.” She was a very low-class person. (She was also lower class, but that’s not what I mean.)

    I told my sister to avoid any prolonged contact with this person. The woman overreacted, like drama too much, and was basically trouble.

    I remember still how incredibly shocked I was to hear someone call their CHILD a “bitch.”

    It’s not just that our OP insulted the man’s daughter, and the boss’ parenting.

    It’s that she used such an extreme word at no provocation, which calls into question her entire “class” status. It’s not just that she might blurt out something offensive to a client who is gay, as someone mentioned above.

    It’s that she’s marked herself as someone unreasonable, someone low-class.

  119. Not a paralegal*

    You told your boss what you truly think of his daughter, him and yourself. You left no room for misinterpretation, and topping that off with a CYA apology, because that’s what this is, is only going to make it worse. As others have said, start looking for a new job.

    Also, your boss is one big-time creepy father and boss.

  120. Marzipan*

    OP, I know (many) other people have mentioned the inappropriateness of the word you used at work. I wanted to suggest, moving forward, that you consider excising it from your vocabulary altogether, not just at work, but everywhere.
    I cheerfully swear like a trooper and yet even I consider that an utterly unacceptable word to use, about anyone, in any context, ever. I wouldn’t even use it to describe a sex worker. It is extraordinarily offensive.
    If you ever really need to express concepts of sex work, or dressing/behaving more provocatively than is considered acceptable in a particular cultural context, there are plenty of ways to do it that don’t carry the same weight of judgement, so whenever I hear it, all I hear is that judgemental attitude. And really, who does that help or benefit? It’s a word that exists purely to make people feel bad.
    Of course, it’s up to you – I’m not the language police, and you can use whatever words you see fit to use. But I suspect the way you grew up normalised this particular word, so I thought it might be helpful to offer a different view of it.

  121. Kate*

    Haven’t been able to get my mind off of this (or pick my jaw up off the floor) all day. I think it’s because there are SO MANY things I don’t understand about this. 1) wanting to date = whore? 2) OP said the word “whore” at work? 3) to her BOSS? 4) it took her hours to figure out it was offensive? 5) assuming wanting to date is a horrible thing, why is it necessarily the father’s fault? There’s a limit to how much parents can influence their children. Suggesting that his daughter’s inclination is the father’s failing is extremely lacking in compassion. If she had said “Nope, that wasn’t an issue for me because I’m not a whore” she would at least have only been attacking one person- as it is, she attacks two.

    How did this person get a job in a Fortune 500 company? The idea that it would cross her mind to believe or say this indicates, to me, a very sheltered existence, and an extreme lack of contact with anyone from a different background/belief system and I’m at a loss for how she even made it as far as she did in the “real world.” I think OP is at this point an HR liability and I don’t think it’s a stretch to worry that she would make offensive comments about gays, as some have suggested (for example, a client saying his child was gay and OP saying “that’s terrible, I’m sorry”). I wonder if the reason OP has not suffered consequences is because the boss realized he was behaving inappropriately (which he was, although OP’s response blows his actions out of the water)- that if he escalates it, he might get in trouble too.

    If OP survives this faux pas, she might want to consider some kind of sensitivity training- both so she could tell her boss she was doing it, and so that she could get to a point where a horribly offensive and hateful word (geared toward a *child*) doesn’t become an “instinctive” response.

    1. RebeccaNoraBunch*

      You said all the things exactly as I would have. +1000 from me. I am aghast and shocked that this person got a job in a Fortune 500 company and definitely can see the potential for future issues based on what, at best and most generous, could be described as pure ignorance as to how the world really works.

  122. Chris*

    I know it’s just restating stuff, but I’m flummoxed at the idea of “instinctively” calling a teenager (or, you know, anyone) a whore. Yeah, the boss was being a bit weird, but “Isn’t my daughter gorgeous (slightly creepy)? The boys are chasing her all the time! (also creepy) You must have had that problem (very creepy and inappropriate)” may all be true, but the response of “No, I’m not a whore” is just so fundamentally, obviously aimed at the daughter that I honestly don’t understand how, given the script you’ve laid out, your comment could mean anything other than the connotation that inexplicably took you a long time to realize

    1. JS*

      It’s not aimed at the daughter though. If you look at the sentence structure the emphasis is on “parents raising” not the fact the the daughter is a whore. You could sub in any other word there instead of whore and it would still be an insult/comment on parenting, not the child. I understand the word “whore” is so out of line and inappropriate for the work place I am not surprised people are focusing in on it. But linguistically, if we are going to break down the sentence, its focus is on parenting styles.

      1. MadGrad*

        That only makes sense if you consider children as nothing but extensions of their parents. If you say he raised his daughter to be a whore, you’re still calling her a whore. It just has the nasty little bonus of shaming both her and her parents. Same with any other insult subbed in.

        2. Junior Dev*

          It also sounds like maybe that specific phrasing–“didn’t raise a whore”– was something of an idiom to OP growing up, so it really was said without thinking.

          I’m reminded of when I I went to a fairly sheltered small town private college after a very unsheltered urban childhood, and hearing people crack tasteless jokes about groups–addicts, homeless people, immigrants–they hadn’t had much or any experience with. To the suburban kids I went to school with, they really hadn’t considered that someone they were talking to might be in a group they were joking about. (I made some similar comments about gun owners before learning that many of my classmates grew up hunting.) It’s very disheartening to know that whole groups of people are seen as rhetorical tropes rather than humans by many people who talk about them, but it’s also a rather common dynamic, especially with groups (like sex workers) so stigmatized that many people refer to them mostly in non-literal contexts (I don’t think the OP believed the daughter literally was a sex worker).

      2. Nancy Drew*

        It also focuses on the child, though, by suggesting that a teenager who wants to date is a whore to begin with. The child *being* a whore is the premise for the implication that the parents *raised* a whore.

        1. Nancy Drew*

          Also, I know it’s been said by others in this thread, but the letter doesn’t suggest that the OP understands this point, either (insulting child in addition to insulting parent) — she continues to think (weeks after the incident) that she only insulted the parenting. The title of the post is AAM’s characterization and doesn’t seem to come from the letter itself.

          There’s so much that could be said about the idea that a teenager’s “provocative” dress or behavior is at all connected with a teenager’s desire to date (which she seems to suggest by way of explaining her reaction). In my experience, even innocent, goodie-goodie teens often want to date even if they would not dream of dressing “provocatively.” I feel compassion her because the OP was evidently raised to believe that dating = whoreish, and still “instinctively” feels that way in her late 20s. This is such a childish view that most people grow out of as they mature, and it’s unfortunate that a late-20s woman still holds it. For example, based on reading books like Sweet Valley High, it seemed to my tween self that sleeping in a bed with a man *must* mean there would be sex or at least romance, but by the time I got into my mid-teens, I knew this to be false (even without firsthand experience).

          I will also mention that there’s no basis for the idea that being raised a Christian is somehow a defense or should even be understood as an explanation, or that the boss being Christian should somehow make him more understanding of this inexcusable comment. Many Christians are not like this and don’t hold the views expressed by the OP, either to her boss or in her letter. Personally, I would suggest the OP seriously consider all the excellent suggestions in this thread (self-reflection, sensitivity training, looking for a new job).

        2. JS*

          It really doesn’t imply a teenager who wants to date is a whore though. Her reaction was to her bosses repeated bragging and oversharing about his daughters dating life. Basically the boss was objectifying his daughter like one would an actual whore. The comment isn’t far off base on how the boss was commenting solely on his daughters looks and attractiveness on why guys wanted to date her.

          The child being a whore is the result of the parents raising her to be that way. Its an indirect insult to the child but the real emphasis is on the parenting as like I said you could sub anything in there and it would still be an insult mainly towards the parenting as that is the focus of the sentence. The insult towards the child is the result of the bad parenting, the insult isn’t an accusation towards the child in itself. Words mean things and have meaning based on structure but like I also said people will take them as they will regardless.

          1. drashizu*

            This is a serious misreading of (1) what the LW said, (2) how it’s most likely to be construed as evidenced by the vast majority of people in this thread, and (3) how it actually sounded at the time the LW said it to her boss (as evidenced by the fact that the LW herself realized what we all immediately perceived as the most obvious interpretation a few hours later).

            The boss talking about how “very attractive” his daughter is is like Level 1 misogyny. Talking about how his daughter wants to start dating is not even Level 1, it’s only misogyny because it’s linked with the constant “very attractive” comments.

            Responding to that with “My parents didn’t raise a wh*re,” where the implication is clear to all and sundry that that makes the boss’s daughter a “wh*re,” is max-level (verbal) misogyny.

            Hell, just using the word “wh*re” is more misogynistic than anything the LW has told us the boss has done. All he’s done is creepily praise his daughter. He is not “objectifying his daughter like one would an actual whore,” and I really think you’re failing to see where the biggest problem with this lies: the LW is associating a desire for a young woman to date with extreme moral degeneracy. She did that on her own, deliberately, and told us so in her own words, even before she realized he’d thought she was referring to hisdaughter.

            This is not a case of the boss provoking the LW or deserving to have his daughter insulted in such a specifically misogynistic way. That is an absolutely ridiculous reading of the situation.

            1. JS*

              OP didn’t “realize” though, her comment was based on her annoyance on his constant objectification and bragging on his daughter and then she thought later that maybe he had taken it the wrong way. “Whore” is a jarring word so no matter what the context its reasonable to think that someone would focus in and fester on that word, like the majority of people. However like I said, words and sentence structure mean things, that fact doesn’t change even if the impact of a singular word clouds people’s judgement. But like I also said regardless, “whore” should never be said in any context at work, it wasnt appropriate.

              Also you are assuming this was her reaction to one conversation. She said this has been a pattern of unsolicited comments about his daughters attractiveness along with her dating life, thrown in with “perfect tall blondes” and mentioning the OPs attractiveness in comparison of “must of had this problem too” it rates pretty HIGH on the misogyny level. That doesn’t make her comment right for the workplace, but in this aspect her comment of “raising a whore” is a reflection of the fathers immense objectification and placing worth on his daughters attractiveness and dating prospects alone. He didn’t say “shes so smart and beautiful” he said “perfect tall blonde”, totally different. Desire to date doesn’t come into play here, whats the issue his the dad’s creepy enthusiasm for it which is reminiscent of a pimp. She didn’t write anything that would suggest she has a problem with teenage dating. She wrote saying she had a problem with her bosses unsolicited inappropriate conversations. Her response is crass and knee-jerk but its clearly not an attack on the daughter.

  123. No Name Poster*

    The word “whore” does not belong in the workplace, no matter how one is raised.

    Both the boss and OP were out of line.

    OP should consider this a learning experience and start a job hunt.

  124. JS*

    Honestly I think the best thing to do would be to leave the issue be and ignore it. What you said OP wasn’t in any way work appropriate or OK but then again neither was your boss sexualizing his daughter and bragging about her looks/dating life to you. Your boss might just be embarrassed now because he sees how all that bragging is coming across to you. I bet that knee-jerk reaction was out of annoyance. If it starts to hinder your job to the point where you cant get things done, you can bring it up, apologize for what was said but also state boundaries about how you don’t think his daughters looks or dating life is appropriate for you to be discussing with him.

    I didn’t get from this that you called his daughter a whore since you stated that he constantly is bragging about her which is objectifying her, making her looks into a commodity and ignoring all person-hood/individuality, which isn’t far off from how people view a whore to be.

    1. voyager1*

      Pretty much wrote what I was thinking. I think just not being this up, move on like it didn’t happen. The boss needs to reflect on why OP you responded the way you did, he isn’t some innocent victim here.

      Frankly he sounds like he is one sexual harassment claim away from an early retirement. You don’t ever comment on the sexual attractiveness of your coworkers!

  125. XYZ*

    I can’t help but picture the letter writer as Angela from The Office and despite the seriousness of the conversation, it makes me giggle

          1. XYZ*

            Once Pam suggested something be done in the color green and Angela said green was “whore-ish”

    2. mimsie*

      In a cross-over situation I can also imagine Andy from Parks & Rec responding with the “look at the camera with ‘oh snap'” reaction. (google “Andy Parks & Rec gif”)

  126. cheluzal*

    I’m actually disappointed that I don’t see a blue Allison box reminding us to be careful about attacking the OP.
    We see it always, but there are numerous attacks on OP and her religion being allowed…so uncool.

    1. Tolerance*

      I thought you knew society’s rules: if someone’s a Christian it’s totally okay to rag on everything they hold dear. If it’s any other religion then you’re suddenly attacking something sacred.

      It’s like the only time being a white Christian male is disadvantageous (among any other day you’re getting attacked for being white and/or male).

      1. paul*

        Most of the responses have been reasonably polite. There’s not a rule to never tell an OP they screwed up, and this one did. I havent’ seen a lot of name calling or anything like that.

      2. TL -*

        Actually, the commentors have been very honest, but kind – people are asking OP to learn from this, not declaring her an awful lost cause (because, OP, you’re not! People make mistakes!). People are stepping in to make sure we don’t take this as stereotypical Christian behavior; people with similar backgrounds are sharing their stories to help provide context and steps they’ve taken to move away from such ideas…. I don’t think anyone has called the OP any names or been rude. So I’m confused as to where your idea is coming from – Alison usually only blue boxes when she sees multiple people being rude and that hasn’t been the case today.

        1. MegaMoose, Esq.*

          Agreed. This has been something of an exhausting topic, but I think people have been pretty generous. Sometimes the letter writer unequivocally screwed the pooch, and the comments reflect that. I’m really not seeing the Christian-bashing, unless you view people talking about their own past experiences with abusive aspects of faith (which exist in all faiths in one way or another) as bashing.

      3. Not a paralegal*

        So you’re ok with OP’s stance that being religious gave her license to call a person a whore, her father a terrible parent, and she better than they. And you’re not ok with comments pointing out why what she said is wrong. Just. Wow.

      4. Temperance*

        Ugh, okay, NO. I’m an atheist. I can assure you that my opinions are not popular. A poll last year found that people like me are less liked than RAPISTS. In my country, no President has ever held my views, and there are very few local politicians who are members of my religion.

        I don’t get to approach randos on the street and make them listen to my religious views. People in my faith group don’t try and control the government, or push our views on society at large.

        1. Sylvia*

          +1 from an agnostic theist. Running into disagreement sometimes is not oppression; it’s a normal part of life for people in every belief system. Expecting to be shielded from this when nobody else is, is a bit odd.

          And it’s likely that the only reason people with my beliefs aren’t widely criticized is that there simply aren’t enough of us to be paid attention to, never mind for the minority of jerks that can be found in any religious group to be noticed.

          1. Sylvia*

            For emphasis: I have met literally one other agnostic in person. No agnostic theists. In every conversation I have ever had about faith, I have been talking with people who didn’t share my beliefs and sometimes we disagreed, became critical of each other, or accidentally said something the other found insulting. That’s life.

    2. Not a paralegal*

      Pointing out that religion, ANY religion, isn’t a free license to be rude and insulting isn’t an attack. Unless you do think that a religion does give you free rein to do just that.

      1. Bow Ties Are Cool*

        There is a particular subgroup of American Christians that thinks polite criticism and/or failure of the entire country to think and live exactly as they do = HELP HELP I’M BEING OPPRESSED! And I can’t really imagine anyone who isn’t a part of that group being offended by the treatment of OP in these discussions.

    4. AD*

      I don’t think anyone’s “attacked” the OP (other than the few comments Alison removed) so I think you’re way off base.

      And considering that the OP called a teenaged girl a “whore”, I think there’s some cause for concern or outrage that doesn’t necessarily need to be minimized or ignored.

    5. De (Germany)*

      Could you please point out what comments you mean?

      All I’m seeing is comments saying the OP is no true Christian and others telling those people that saying that is not okay (which, for the record I agree with)

  128. Bruce Banner, PhD*

    I think the context sounds like the boss’s daughter wants to sake for the sake of dating and having a boyfriend, which is frowned upon in Christian circles where the term is a bit more “Dating because I really like this person and want to see if it could actually lead to marriage” than mainstream “This is fun, if it works out maybe we’ll move in together and maybe one day get married if I feel like it”, which is what led to that remark.

    I’m by no means saying it was appropriate, let alone an accurate description, I’m just guessing (as a conservative Christian) that’s probably where the OP’s train of thought was moving.

    1. Observer*

      So what? Even if that’s EXACTLY what the OP thought, what makes her response appropriate? I’m not going to get into whether the OP’s specifci sect conflates casual dating and maybe moving in together with “whoredom”, but that’s not really the issue.

      The issue is that you don’t call people really nasty names nor tell people that they are horrible parents, especially at work! The second issue is that level of judgement of people who you don’t really know – the OP has apparently never even met the kid! – is just not appropriate. And, lastly, especially if your religious denomination is out of the mainstream, you need to be very very careful about laying your religious judgements on people who are not your direct co-religionists.

      1. Bruce Banner, PhD*

        “So what? Even if that’s EXACTLY what the OP thought, what makes her response appropriate?”

        “I’m by no means saying it was appropriate”

        I was addressing a lot of the other comments (and in retrospect should have stated that first) that didn’t seem to quite grasp why she was equating dating to that. Again, not saying it was any means appropriate, I was just trying to shed a guess onto *why* her reasoning headed that way.

        1. Observer*

          What I meant was why would SHE think it’s appropriate. One of the things adults are supposed to understand that what you think and what you say should be very different things.

          I get what you are saying about why she was thinking what she was thinking, if that’s the equation her sect draws. But, it’s one thing to think “My boss is a jerk” and a very different thing to say it, no? Why is this any different.

          Think of it this way. Say the kid was acting like a racist idiot. Telling your boss that they are raising a racist jerk would STILL be a bad idea. That’s so even though I am convinced that racism is a genuine and increasingly globally recognized bad thing. (Even a lot of racists don’t recognize that they are racist and would strongly deny their racism because they understand on some level that it’s a bad thing.) When you are talking about something that is fairly religion specific, you should recognize that you need to keep a lid on it. She’s far from a child, and she can’t be all that new to the wider world, so there is no excuse for her to think that all “devout conservative Christians” think exactly like her.

  129. emma2*

    Oh, CRINGE.

    Okay, so I interpreted the “my parents didn’t want to raise a whore” comment as something that was reflective of the parents’ thinking and not necessarily the OP trying to call anyone a whore. (Like, I could see myself saying to a friend sarcastically, “My uptight parents didn’t let me date because they didn’t want to raise a ‘Whore'” *air quotes*.)But I could be wrong. What really made me flinch was the fact that she even used the word “whore” in front of her boss. It’s just so inappropriate.

  130. Paula, with Two Kids*

    I think we’re probably missing something here. I think we should give the letter writer some credit, she’s written because she knows she’s done something wrong. I imagine all the weird comments her boss was making put her on edge and made her uncomfortable. That kind of discomfort can bring out the offense in some of us. OP, I’m sure with a heartfelt apology you can begin to smooth this over.

    1. Evie*

      But she knows she’s done something wrong because the boss acted weird not because she joined the dots herself – that’s part of why there’s so much eyebrow raising, OP did something which is considered WAAAY out of whack and doesn’t seem to understand how much a thing it is, or why it is such a thing. If the boss wasn’t acting weired she’d not have considered it an issue.

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I appreciate your optimism, but I don’t entirely share it. Insulting someone’s child AND their parenting AND in a sexually charged way AND using harsh, non work-appropriate language AND leaving a lot of questions about how the OP will interact with other people who may live life outside of what she has been taught is appropriate is a big complicated issue that, IMO is not likely going to be resolved with an apology, no matter how heartfelt. I’m not saying OP should’t apologize but I think she needs to go into that conversation realizing that it may not be enough to salvage this relationship or her future with this company.

  131. jv*

    I gasped and laughed with this post. This reminds me so much of a woman I used to work with. She would like to publicly announce why she had so many shortcomings… intrigued? Well everyone she advised us all on a daily basis that she was “from Michigan” so apparently that’s why she had sudden outbursts.

    OP… so glad you know you screwed up but oh man this will be hard to recover from. Think before you speak! This is your boss, not your buddy. There’s a line.

    1. Michigan person*

      That’s so weird, because lots of people from Michigan are perfectly fine, I promise!

  132. ilikeaskamanager*

    there are a lot of good suggestions on this response board so I won’t repeat them. My suggestion is that the OP also may want to take some diversity training as soon as possible. Carrying a lot of judgment or preconceived notions about people into the workplace hinders your ability to be successful. You are going to work with a lot of people who are very different from you. Learning how to do that without being so judgmental is really really important. Diversity Training helps bring those unconscious biases to consciousness and helps you to challenge assumptions and stereotypes.

    Good Luck OP.

  133. zaracat*

    (Apologies in advance for a very long comment). I see two aspects of this situation, the LW’s thoughts/feelings vs her behaviour. From a managerial perspective all that matters is her behaviour, and this is what Alison addressed in her answer, but I can also understand how things might have got to this point so I’d like to comment on that as well.

    Firstly, LW is entitled to feel what she feels. But as an adult she is expected to control how she behaves in response to those feelings, no matter how strong they are. Her “instinctive” responses will have been shaped by previous life experiences (and we can only speculate as to what those were), but that doesn’t mean these responses are her only option. This sort of immediate and disproportionate response is going to call into question LW’s judgement and self-control, especially in a workplace, and especially in an interaction with her boss. It is no different from it not being acceptable to respond to your boss saying “nice tits” by slapping him or throwing your glass of water in his face, however much you might secretly wish to.

    The fact that the response was personally insulting adds another layer of injury to the boss, and it is difficult to see how the LW can redeem herself in this situation no matter how much she tries to apologise.

    Having said that, I can absolutely see how the boss’ behaviour could lead to some very strong feelings and to the situation where the LW felt as if it was all about her and her boss and did not immediately grasp that her remarks applied to the daughter.

    To me, the father making the sort of remarks he did about his daughter on more than one occasion – describing her physical attractiveness and boys “fawning over her” and discussing her intention to date – is inappropriate on a number of levels. It invades the daughter’s privacy to have such personal information shared with people she doesn’t know, hasn’t consented to having it shared with, when she is not even present. Oversharing of this sort can sometimes be an abuse tactic, frequently used (although not exclusively) by narcissistic parents. The daughter’s behaviour itself may be completely age appropriate, but her father discussing it like this with third parties sexualises it in a very inappropriate way, almost as if he is displaying her as a sexual commodity to be inspected for approval. These sort of remarks alone would make me feel very uncomfortable and disapproving of this man’s parenting style.

    The boss’ remark “I bet you had that problem!” could be interpreted as forced teaming: an attempt to get the LW to normalise this behaviour by agreeing that her experience is similar – and not just whether LW might have been ready to date at age 15 or had boys attracted to her, but also whether she experienced her father presenting her to the world as a sex object. In this context I can 100% understand the immediate reaction of wanting to distance herself from that parenting style and to make it clear that her parents would not have considered it acceptable to behave in that way. If you look at it this way LW’s response is all about criticising the father and not the daughter. She’s saying “your behaviour makes her look like a whore”, not “she actually is a whore”. So I can see where she’s coming from in not immediately recognising that she’s also insulted the daughter.

    LW’s behaviour was an immense overreaction which will permanently damage her relationship with her boss. It was completely inappropriate to openly criticise her boss in that way or to use such offensive language. BUT … I’m not going to judge her for having those thoughts or feelings. In the absence of further information we have no way of knowing exactly what was going on in LW’s head and why. Maybe she is unreasonably judgmental and hateful, maybe she is responding to painful personal experiences. LW may be able to use self-reflection on these issues to help explain her behaviour to both herself and her boss, but whether her boss wants to take any of it into consideration is entirely up to him.

  134. junica*

    I’m simultaneously laughing, cringing, and hoping for an update sometime soon. Hoooooooooooly hell OP.

  135. RebeccaNoraBunch*

    I’ve been watching this post all day. I literally can’t tear my eyes away from it. I’m surprised my team didn’t ask me what I was constantly staring at all day instead of my work.

    Anecdata time! I was raised in a Christian household, though my parents are very liberal politically and my sister and I were given pretty much free reign to do whatever. We were smart, responsible, and made good decisions for ourselves. We continue to do so. I’m now in my early 30s and my roommate, who rents a room in my house, is a woman also in her early 30s who was raised in an extremely conservative Southern Christian household in which her dad was/is a Baptist minister. I knew I was somewhat sheltered growing up, but this a whole other level.

    I do believe the OP sees a “kindred spirit” in her boss because they are both “strong Christians” (and yes, I am using quotations purposefully). My roommate also believes this about me, which is why she’s more open with me than she would be otherwise. She is shockingly and frustratingly sheltered. She has many times expressed deeply held misogynistic, sexist, shaming, and also brutally homophobic views that I honestly just don’t have the energy to fight because fighting it won’t get me anywhere. She believes me to be a virgin because I’m not married. I will never, ever correct her because I can’t deal with the fallout. If she found out that last year (yes, also in my 30s) I fell in love with a man and I’m no longer a virgin, it would probably ruin our friendship. In fact, just last evening she was explaining a Shakespearean scene to a colleague (she works in theater) and from what I heard, she has a profound and disturbing lack of understanding as to how sex actually works, particularly as far as the woman’s side of things. I will never correct her. It’s not my place.

    That being said, she does work in theater and manages to still get jobs, so I know she can’t be expressing her starkly homophobic views (as well as harsh judgement on people who drink, I type as I sit here with a glass of wine) at work. She just wouldn’t be hired if she did. She’s even told me she has to keep her opinions to herself at work to “be professional” but didn’t want to have to do that at home – which is why I didn’t feel safe inviting my gay friend over while she’d be here.

    OP, you’ve gotten a lot of really compassionate and helpful advice here. I hope it compels you to do some serious self-reflection and actually look at how the Jesus we both believe in would have you act and think to and about other people. I also agree with everyone else: it’s probably time to find a new job. The good news is that hopefully you’ll be able to move forward with a lot of internal work to do relatively early in your career, and you can build positively from here on out.

    1. N*

      That’s pretty freaky. I wonder if your roommate knows about the current academic discourse about queering Shakespeare. Or that some modern historians believe that Shakespeare was gay. How does she deal with all of the other weird sex stuff in Shakespeare–like in Titus Andronicus or Midsummer Night’s Dream? I have so many questions now!

      1. RebeccaNoraBunch*

        She probably doesn’t know about it, or would be quick to dismiss it as academics who have too much time on their hands and aren’t providing anything “useful” to society. She comes from a very rural conservative Southern background where her parents actually worked on tobacco farms so she’s very much a realist and has little time for what she would deem is academic theorizing, even though she makes her living in theater.

        As far as the other weird sex stuff in Shakespeare, I’d venture to say it probably just goes right over her head. There have been many times over the 4ish years we’ve lived together where I’ve purposefully bitten my tongue or just disengaged because she’s so wildly wrong or off-base and explaining why is just not something I want to do.

        1. N*

          …I’m caught between being so worried because she seems to know so little about the world, but also *really* wanting to meet her.

  136. LadyPhoenix*

    … Honestly, I don’t find the comments the boss made about his kid to be “creepy” (ymmv, since I heard creepier shit on the interwebs) and he seems cool enough to not be the stick in the mud prevents his kid from dating.

    His comment towards you? Out of line. Maybe he was trying to compliment you in that awkward “man compliment” way, but he still was out of line.

    But what YOU said? I’m surprised you still have a job–and a nose for that matter.

    The only Christians that I see use that sexist term tend to be assholes. You see them on TV/Film/Media and you LAUGH/HATE them? You’re not supposed to relate to them, and if you do… welp…

    Also, you’re in your late 20’s. At that age, you should know better than to say something so gross.

    The only time I have ever called someone a whore is when I refer to the Greek god Zeus, because I acknowledge the sexism between men who have sex versus women who have sex (and also cause it is a joke about a mythological figure and not a real person). I don’t call people’s kids whores. I know better than that and I’m 26.

    If you are gonna apologize, you need to acknowledge the absolute seriousness of your actions and what the mean. You can’t behind your age or your religion or how he treats you and ESPECIALLY how he reacted to your comment. You need to say something along the line of “I said something absolutely rude and horrible about your daughter. I am sorry for my actions.”

    And, honestly? Get out the resume. You’ll have a hell of time trying to maintain a working relationship when word comes around that you called your boss’s kid a whore. That apology is going to gurantee that you have a good reference, not your current job.

    Cause either way, you might as well consider your career life at this company dead as dreams.

  137. Tina*

    I am also a passionate Christian, and I wanted to note that using words like ‘whore’ to describe a young girl (or anyone really) isn’t in the spirit of acceptance and love that defines the Christian faith, at least in my view. Maybe think about why you jumped to such a harsh comment and how you can eliminate such words from your vocabulary in future? Maybe it’s different in other parts of the world, but I’ve always thought it was a pretty unkind slur.

  138. Lee*

    Yikes OP. I’d start looking for other jobs. You don’t insult a man’s daughter, much less one that he describes in mildly-incestuous undertones. And he’s your boss? Say goodbye to a good reference.
    Also…I’d explore some of the clear hangups you have, regarding a female’s sexuality in the 21st century, with a therapist.

  139. DevAssist*

    I’d REALLY love it if OP chimed in here…I need more context/explanation to even begin to understand why they would say something like that. Like many that have already posted here, I am a Christian and was raised in a very conservative household. Never in my life would I call anyone- especially a young teenage girl- such an insulting name.

    OP, it sounds to me like the (admittedly uncomfortable) way your boss spoke of his daughter was irritating you (because you think dating- or even being attractive- is inappropriate?) and you lashed out in basically the worst way possible. Yikes.

  140. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

    to OP. When at work, the rule of thumb should be “Keep everything to yourself”–hands, (feet), and opinions. When your boss said to you “I’ll bet you had that problem” when referring to your dating life, you should have probably just not answered at all (as that kind of comment is totally inappropriate). But if you had to say something, you should have kept it about YOU and said “well, I didn’t date much when I was teenager” and then excused yourself.

  141. Mrs. Fenris*

    I spent a lot of my early adulthood around very conservative Christians. The LW’s attitude isn’t that surprising, but her word choice certainly is.

    I’m actually going to guess that the boss may not be as upset as everyone thinks, though it would certainly be appropriate if he were. I have heard a LOT of appallingly rude comments within the conservative Christian community, more than you would ever hear otherwise. My impression was always that people who spent all their time in such a sheltered setting just did not learn some of the social norms that everyone else does. I’ve heard people matter-of-factly tell women that they had gained weight, ask if they were pregnant, ask other people for huge favors, and comment very harshly on other people’s lifestyle choices like it was completely ok. Boss may not see this is being horribly out of line.

    1. Observer*

      You’ve only heard that among conservative Christians? I don’t know a whole lot of people who identify with those groups, but believe me, I’ve seen all of the above, and worse. I’ve had my pregnant belly patted by complete strangers, heard dozens of comments about women who are “too stupid” or “too ignorant” to use birth control, been asked if I had “nothing better to do” with my third pregnancy, and had countless comments about weight made to me or in front of me. None of these were Conservative Christians.

      1. saffytaffy*

        If these people were complete strangers, how do you know they weren’t conservative Christians? I’m asking sincerely, although I know it reads like I’m being adversarial.

        1. Observer*

          There are some markers that either include or exclude membership in some groups. Also, in this case even though these people are strangers to me, and many had never seen or spoken to me before, others in the office knew who they were.

  142. Lurker*

    Oh my god OP this is so Angela Martin I can’t. The best you can do here is a sincere, embarrassed apology.

  143. gsa*

    I am not digging AMA’s initial response.

    There was a previous letter about Jack and Jill, when Jack freaked the F out about a bird and Jill was run over by a car…

    That letter lead me to intent vs. impact. Look it up.

    A poster here, posted the: intent vs impact thing.

    Calling anyone a whore is awful, regardless of intent. The impact was equally aweful, and probably not recoverable.

    I am still working through this in my own mind. So far I have come to the inclusion, think about what you want and then choose your words carefully.

    And that is all I have.

    gsa

  144. saffytaffy*

    FWIW, in my experience, evangelist Christian fathers DO have a tendency to sexualize their daughters. I grew up with a lot of this and am seeing it now that my peers are having children, but I haven’t seen it in less religious families.

    1. Observer*

      You mean all of the highly sexual clothes for young girls are marketed to evangelist Christian fathers, not fathers in other circles and mothers? I didn’t think that this was such a wide market.

      1. saffytaffy*

        Hi Observer. No, I’m not talking about clothing. I’m talking about fathers sexualizing their daughters by bringing up sexual desirability (not merely beauty, and not other desirable characteristics) in public to adults outside the family.

  145. heather*

    I have a lot of empathy for this letter-writer, and I think I sort of get what happened here.

    Truth is, the boss was way out of line. First, the pattern of praising his daughter’s attractiveness at work to a young woman subordinate was a kind of grooming, an unwanted, overly personal confidence that somehow also implicated this letter-writer, softening the ground for a segue to her own attractiveness, that would somehow be sanctioned as having been a natural, organic extension of the seemingly blameless and family-oriented conversation about his daughter.

    Second, the utterly inappropriate speculation about a subordinate’s teenage attractiveness, in the form of a question that required ultimate disarming tact to either not be overly self-effacing (actually I was ugly then) or invite further quasi-sexual speculation (yeah, I was fighting them off).

    In my opinion, the letter-writer’s “shocking” language was an understandable, even spot-on, rebuke of *the entire game her boss had implicated her in.* She annihilated any pretense of going along with the damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t conversational trap he’d set for her, and, in a blaze of authentic anger and repugnance, shut the entire dynamic down with a few words.

    And the word “whore,” to my mind, while seemingly anti-feminist and absolutely inappropriate both to describe a teenage girl wanting to date and as a word in itself in the workplace, was actually perfect communication on a deep limbic level. The word made stark truth of the *subtext* of the conversation her boss had repeatedly ensnared her in. He was, cloaked in self-protective parental concern made, actually asking his subordinate if she’d been sexually active early. He really was. And subconsciously she knew that. And what flew out of her mouth named that ugliness, called it out. Because she was very angry, absolutely rightfully so, to be manipulated, within an imbalanced power dynamic, at work, into having her polite, empathetic listening to his family life be pivoted into a probe into her sexual development under cover of parental concern.

    What he did here was *uglier* than the word “whore” because it was so covert and respectable, that kind of sexual harassment and power-dynamic abuse that is so ubiquitous and invisible and hard to name.

    The truth is, the boss was never talking about his own daughter, really. Nor was the letter-writer calling his daughter a whore. If we were to lay the *real* conversation bare it might be something like: “tell me in detail how hot you were at 15”; “no, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.”

    I think this happens a lot in older-male creep dynamics, as it does in intimate partner abuse: some authentic part of the abused person rises up in anger and strikes back, says no, but then, since the provocation was so nebulous and difficult to define, the abuser gets to play the part of the shocked, innocent victim.

    I hate that this letter-writer is being pilloried, and encouraged to apologize, and feel like a terrible person who harbors self-hatred for normal sexuality. No, her boss knew she was raised in a strict christian family, and by insinuating she’d been irresistibly attractive at 15, himself attributed an ugly complicity on her part. It was very very manipulative of him, and he almost certainly has done it to young women before, and is practiced at converting women’s empathetic listening into sexual innuendo. He is probably unconscious of this, thinks of himself as a good family man, gets little thrills from trampling boundaries right out in the open, in a way that can’t be rebuked. Other women may also have been “inexplicably!” rude to him “out of the blue” like this. He’s such a very very nice guy, after all.

    1. Lady Ariel Ponyweather*

      Late reply, but I’ve been thinking about this post recently and why the boss bothered me more than the employee, and you’ve explained it perfectly.

      The truth is, the boss was never talking about his own daughter, really. Nor was the letter-writer calling his daughter a whore. If we were to lay the *real* conversation bare it might be something like: “tell me in detail how hot you were at 15”; “no, fuck you and the horse you rode in on.”

      You are spot on. This is exactly what was going on. The letter writer was being manipulated into playing a game she couldn’t win.

      Thanks for writing this out, it’s really well written and I hope the OP gets to see it.

    2. Liz T*

      Yeah the OP doesn’t indicate that she was consciously satirizing her boss. She said it because she was trained to believe that teenage girls who date are whores.

    4. None Of This Nonsense, Please*

      Hm. I started to say that I don’t see how you can read all this into what was said, but after re-reading the letter I kinda see a hint of it….but only a hint, and only if you assume that we’re getting the true tenor of the comments to the OP. Those comments could be creepy ‘my daughter is so sexy and you remind me of her’ or ‘my daughter is maturing and I’m proud of her but don’t know how to handle it, how did you?’ depending on tone and context. The OP didn’t say ‘He made me feel uncomfortable when he said those things and I blurted the first thing I could think of to make him back off’ –in which case this would be a different thread.

    5. LawBee*

      This is really stretching it. And it is NEVER appropriate to call a teenager a whore, period full-stop I don’t care what “limbic” whatever you pull there. OP needs to apologize.

      ” It was very very manipulative of him, and he almost certainly has done it to young women before, and is practiced at converting women’s empathetic listening into sexual innuendo.”

      Oh good grief.

  147. RM*

    One thing I’m curious about is whether the boss’s comments are really as inappropriate as they seem from OP’s description. If it’s presented correctly, then yes it’s definitely creepy. But I think the comments claiming he’s “sexualizing his daughter” is going a little far when our only basis for that assumption is the word of someone who thinks it’s okay to call her a whore, and didn’t even see an issue with that until hours after the fact. Obviously I don’t know the whole story but I’d give him the benefit of the doubt based on the source. Someone saying their daughter is beautiful isn’t that unusual in itself (ideally you’d also be bragging about less superficial things as well of course) and joking about how “our teenager wants to date and we’re terrified” is annoying but not that uncommon either. I think it’s okay to say his workplace behavior is inappropriate but I we should be careful making accusations (fairly serious ones in my opinion) about his relationship with his daughter when we’re hearing the story from someone who clearly has VERY poor judgment and abnormally extreme views on dating/sex. There are some disturbed parents out there for sure, but I also think we should ask if these comments would be as scrutinized from the “creepy” perspective if they were coming from a mother instead – in the workplace, maybe we’d want her to knock it off or think she was a bit shallow/annoying, but saying she was being gross and sexual towards her own child (or any child) and taking it beyond that into the family dynamics of a person we don’t know /anything/ concrete about isn’t really okay in my opinion. I do understand why it comes across differently from a father and sometimes that’s fair, but just something to step back and consider.

    When she was alive, my grandmother always asked for an updated picture so she could “show me off”, and family gatherings in high school usually involved jokes from aunts and uncles about whether I had a boyfriend or how I must be “beating the guys off with a stick” etc. It would be understandable if someone in their respective workplaces didn’t want to hear these comments from my relatives or be roped into them, but that doesn’t mean they were crossing any lines with me personally and even if they weren’t necessarily my favorite part of the holidays, it also doesn’t indicate they were looking at me inappropriately or had motives beyond just giving a family member a hard time or bragging about a grandchild, etc. I think there’s probably a LOT of people who could relate to that exact same experience with their families and don’t look back on it as a nefarious/sexual thing. Just my two cents.

    1. None Of This Nonsense, Please*

      I was just thinking this. The OP is so hyper sensitive about appearance and interaction between the sexes that I really can’t get a realistic idea of what her boss said. There are a lot of comments that change from ‘sweet, teasing bragging’ to ‘creepy sexualization of a young girl’ with tone and context–which we’re not getting. Also, the boss may have made many other comments about his daughter–making the comments about how attractive she is much more balanced– that the OP just didn’t notice. Normally I know we should trust that the OP’s account of things, but in this her actions make me doubt her judgment.

  148. nhb*

    My father once said to me, as part of an ongoing disagreement (disobeyance) about me cleaning my room, that if I didn’t do what he said (in this case, cleaning the room), I’d “wind up a whore on a street corner. Is that what you want to do with your life?” I was 14 or 15 when he said that to me. I’m 34 today and remember him saying it as vividly as the day he said it to me. We were not evangelical Baptists, but “Southern Baptists”. I love the church I grew up in. I never heard that word from church. But I heard it at home. Once was enough.

  149. nonegiven*

    I’m 99% sure this girl’s parents drilled into her for years.
    You aren’t allowed to date because we are your parents and we’re not raising a whore.
    You can’t wear xxx, because….
    You aren’t allowed to xxx because…

    I had two cousins raised like this. Their go to phrase wasn’t “because I’m not a whore.” Everything they did or didn’t do that was different, that we asked them why about was “because I love Jesus.” But I can totally see a kid being raised with that in her head.

  150. MB*

    I agree with everyone who said that the LW should apologize, because that comment was definitely out of line.
    It’s not cool to call a little girl names…and I would consider her a child at 15. Hopefully a sincere apology can fix this situation.

    That being said, I noticed something and I don’t know if other commenters might feel the same way about it. LW didn’t mention her ethnic background but I wonder if it could be that she is a woman of color who was annoyed by her boss constantly referring to his “blonde/perfect/beautiful” daughter?
    I feel that this could be relevant if she is indeed a woman of color because I am one myself, and I admit that it irks me when certain people make a point of telling me that somebody is beautiful just because they happen to be white and blonde.
    It’s not about jealousy…just that certain standards of beauty are imposed on others and maybe she was lashing out subconsciously.

    By no means does this excuse what she said or implied about her boss’s daughter, who might very well be a lovely girl.
    I’m just throwing out a possible idea of why this might have happened.

  152. CC*

    I know this is a retrospective, but I feel compelled to state that I’m autistic – as in, someone with the neurological condition that allegedly makes us “blunt” and “unfeeling” and/or “socially inept” – and I would never, EVER say what that OP said.

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