a new manager says it’s a problem that our employee cries in meetings, at her desk, and during team lunches

by Alison Green on April 4, 2023

A reader writes:

I manage a team of eight. We have all been with this company for over 10 years and together in this department for about five. Recently our company merged with another and now my department is over twice the size. The new company hired a manager, Tim, to work with me who is completely new, not a part of either previous company.

One of my direct reports, Vanessa, is an issue between me and Tim. Vanessa is quirky. When I first started managing her, she cried a few times at any feedback. After a long conversation, she told me she is an empath and cries a lot, but just ignore it and she will be fine. This has proved to mostly be true. Vanessa cries in meetings, at her desk, and during team lunches, and we adapted.

In the first week Tim was on board, two incidents with Vanessa occurred. The first was Vanessa cried throughout a meeting explaining the merger. My team simply let her be, but it was clear Tim was distracted. A few days later, a bunch of us were in a conference room and a bird flew into the glass window, fell the the ground, and died. One of my team members stalled Vanessa in the hallway while another ran outside and moved the bird to the garbage with a shovel.

After the bird incident, Tim scheduled a meeting with me to discuss Vanessa. First he asked me if she had a specific diagnosis or any ADA accommodations, which she does not. Second, he told me that he thinks long-standing teams can be dysfunctional and not realize it because we are so used to working around it.

Then Tim told me Vanessa’s conduct is “below baseline professional.” Tim is concerned that Vanessa has come to expect emotional support at work beyond average and the 10 new people who join our department will not satisfy her, ending in disaster for all.

Tim thinks we need to have a meeting right away with Vanessa and lay out some things that she needs to change. What concerns me about this is how Tim wants to have this meeting, which is a “tough love” format and will definitely not get through to Vanessa. I suggested a much softer approach and Tim told me, “Can you see that you can’t talk to Vanessa like an adult?”

I think Vanessa is definitely an adult. I also think we should deal with personality conflicts when they come, if they come. I think there is a real benefit to accepting the misfits, the quirky, the sensitive among us.

Tim and I agreed to table it for now, but he told me that he is prepared to talk to Vanessa about professional conduct and will not hesitate to do so if the situation warrants it.

I want our new department to be successful and I want to work well with Tim. I also want Vanessa to keep being Vanessa. How do you suggest I go forward in this situation?

Well … I share Tim’s concerns.

He might be off-base about the most effective way to approach Vanessa about this; I’d say the focus shouldn’t be on “tough love” but on brainstorming practical solutions with her, like leaving the room if she needs to cry, a private work space if that’s feasible, a leave of absence if it’s needed, an EAP if you have one. But he’s right about the main point: Having someone regularly cry “in meetings, at her desk, and during team lunches” would be disruptive and upsetting for most people.

It’s possible that all your long-time team members are used to it and happy to work around it … but I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of them are really uncomfortable but think they have no choice but to accept it. And either way, it’s highly likely that the new employees joining your team won’t be comfortable having a colleague regularly crying in shared spaces.

Crying is a sign of distress, and a lot of people find it difficult to ignore that! Your new employees might have trouble focusing on their work when Vanessa is crying or might feel deep discomfort not acknowledging she’s distraught, and are likely to find it really upsetting themselves.

Vanessa is explaining this by saying she’s an empath … but what about others who also feel empathy for those around them and are being asked to work around someone who is so frequently venting intense feelings of sadness? Vanessa isn’t the only one whose feelings matter, and it’s not reasonable — or frankly kind — to ask people to accommodate this in their work space so frequently. You’re prioritizing Vanessa’s mental health and emotional needs at the expense of everyone else’s.

To be clear, this isn’t an across-the-board condemnation of tears at work. We are human and humans have emotional reactions. Sometimes that can mean tears. What’s disruptive here is the frequency.

I applaud that you want to make space for “the misfits, the quirky, the sensitive among us.” Workplaces often don’t do that enough, and some of the expectations we have around “professionalism” aren’t really necessary (and some are nothing more than sexism, racism, and/or ableism). But some of what professionalism encompasses are the things that make it possible for groups of people to work together smoothly and productively and reasonably pleasantly, like not regularly subjecting others to disruptive or emotionally draining behavior.

I can’t tell if Tim is your peer or if he’s senior to you. If he’s senior to you, this may not be your call anyway — but if he’s not, I hope you’ll listen to the perspective he offered you. He nailed it when he said that teams that have worked together for a long time sometimes don’t recognize dysfunction because they’ve all grown so accustomed to navigating around it.

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  1. WellRed*

    OP, you held up a team meeting while one colleague intercepted Vanessa while another scurried outside with a shovel! To hide the evidence. This is beyond ridiculous.

    1. Excitable Boy*

      I thought so too. I think it would be difficult to work on a team that had to be focused on one person’s inability to deal with the life or work events that aren’t wonderful/sugar sweet.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I normally don’t think of a team lunch as a tragedy, so I have to wonder what was going on at the team lunch that made Vanessa cry. Was it due to joy, overstimulation? That seems like a lot to deal with for everybody else.

        1. Katie*

          No employee should be regularly crying at work. It’s much too distressing for everyone else. If she can’t keep it together most of the time, this may not be the job for her.

    2. andrea*

      This was actually the one instance I thought was maybe okay! I don’t think it’s regularly acceptable to cry in public spots at work, but I am the kind of person who will burst into tears at the sight of a freshly dead or twitching bird. I’d deal (by bursting into tears and then stifling them or quickly running to the bathroom) but if coworkers knew and one or two were heartier & felt like moving the poor dead bird, I’d be grateful. I don’t think it’s the end of the world to hold up a meeting because of a death, even if it is a bird death.

      1. vegan*

        But that’s only one instance. The LW is talking about many instances over a range of contexts.

        1. andrea*

          yep! that’s why this is a comment in reply to someone who brought up that one instance, and why my reply starts, “This was actually the one instance I thought was maybe okay! I don’t think it’s regularly acceptable to cry in public spots at work.”

          1. WellRed*

            When the team is running around to accommodate or avoid triggering the crying it’s moved beyond “oh just ignore me,” sniff sniff. Would she even have known about the bird at that point?

            1. Angel*

              Oh, just ignore me. Sniff, sniff! That’s gold! I am not being insensitive to Vanessa, but am concerned for the team overall. It can be a bit awkward.

      2. Susannah*

        I dunno. The issue here is that they scurried to make sure Vanessa didn’t see this and be triggered to weep. That on its own makes it clear her behavior is affecting the running of the workplace. If she’s crying regularly, and people are doing things to keep her from crying, or to constantly comfort her… something has to change. Either they go on with life as usual and simply do not react – let alone pre-emptively react – when she cries. Or she figures out a way to deal with this.

        I know it’s almost certainly not this way, but if I worked there, I would find the constant tears manipulative.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          Their reaction was the absolute definition of “missing stair.” Everybody’s so used to having to work around Vanessa that it isn’t even seen as odd to hold up a work meeting for this (and to be fair, I would be horribly upset by that, as would other members of that team, I’d bet. But since Vanessa is “the crier” they all have to not be “a crier” in order to function as a work unit.

          She’s basically siphoning off anybody else’s right to be upset about anything since “that might set her off and we don’t have time to deal.”

          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            I came to the comments looking for the missing stair comment. Because she is it. And like I’ve said before about stepping over and around the missing stair…the stepper is going throw him/herself out of whack and the other stairs are going to get far more pressure on them.
            If there were a dead bird outside the meeting room window, OP as the manager should think, “wow, that’s unsettling at worst and distracting at best for my team. I’ll call maintenance and ask someone to come remove it.” Not, “oh no, Vanessa will be upset. Action plan, Death on Premises…you, shovel, you garbage bag, you distract Vanessa.”
            OP, it’s noble to create a welcome haven for quirky people. But, you can’t put the burden on your team.
            Reference:
            Manager of OCD employee who demanded no rings or one on each hand and bus riders OUTSIDE to line up boy girl;
            Manager who expected team members to drive anxious employee home after work and sit with her until she her partner got home;
            Don’t be that guy.

            1. Flowers*

              I’m sorry what? no rings or only 1 on each hand? they demanded their peers follow this? how did that work out?

              1. GraceC*

                The letter was “our company is making us do unreasonable things to accommodate a coworker’s mental health”

                2. NotBatman*

                  Holy guacamole. I’m not an OCD expert, but I am a psychologist, and that is *not* the way to relieve symptoms of OCD. The “there will be a catastrophe if people’s jewelry is asymmetrical” brain-loop is very real and very scary, but “there only hasn’t been a catastrophe because management forced everyone to have symmetrical jewelry” is not the way to handle it.

              2. Random Bystander*

                There wasn’t an update that I recall (though if there was, it probably would have been of the variety “LW got the **** out of Dodge”, where “Dodge” = company that puts the dys in functional.

                Things like someone getting a formal written warning for wearing a wedding ring (“you may either purchase and wear a second ring to wear on your other hand, or you may not wear your wedding ring”) and other outright nuttiness written into the dress code to accommodate the co-worker with OCD.

          2. Jellyfisher Catcher*

            The missing stair was my first thought as well. I say that as a women who very occasionally got teary at work – briefly and quietly in a bathroom stall.

            1. Sorrischian*

              I’ve cried at work – once much more publicly and dramatically than I’d like – when hard life and mental health stuff started bleeding into work. My coworkers were all kind enough to pretend it never happened at the time, but as a regular event? I cannot imagine asking people to just work around that.

        3. Aggretsuko*

          I may be miserable at work, but even I don’t want to work around a perpetual crier. It sounds terrible.

            1. USS Failure To Launch*

              Heck, even Deanna Troi usually kept it together when the hostile forces were threatening to attack unless they had some mind whammy trick, and she’s still half-human!

        4. JSPA*

          Or they may like her a lot, and want to avoid not her standard tears (which they can ignore) but actual distress.

          I don’t find it disruprive to work in an office with someone who has the feels about animals dying in crying of them. If they worked in a slaughterhouse it would be be untenable… but in an office setting it’s no worse than, “Billemina is freaked out by spiders, steal them for a moment while I evict the big one that’s scrambling in the sink.” Which, yeah, people do that for each other, not because they’re “warped,” but because everyone has some quirks and needs.

          Some people cry easily (without being terribly distraught) just as other people have sweaty palms (without being nervous).

        5. Orrlynow*

          Exactly. It is manipulative, and childish. And the “empath” nonsense? Just and excuse for her to continue to get away with what she’s doing with no consequences.

      3. Jen*

        I felt the same way. I’d be appreciative if someone spared me from having to deal with an animal’s death at work, and I’m not someone who routinely bursts into tears at meetings and lunches.

      4. Observer*

        The thing that’s troubling is that it seems like this is something that has become SO normal that everyone just jumps in and knows what to do, and that everyone also knows that her reaction is going to be more disruptive that holding up the meeting.

        I can see why Tim is calling this out so quickly. I could see being in that room and thinking “OMG! How often does this stuff happen that they are so smooth about it?!”

        2. allathian*

          Yeah, I’m wondering why she’s crying all the time. It’s even possible that she’s simply incapable of just being in an office without crying all the time, regardless of the job. If that’s the case, I doubt there’s any reasonable accommodation for her to continue working in that office or any other.

          I wonder, can her job be effectively done remotely? That would be a reasonable accommodation because it’s totally unreasonable to expect her coworkers to deal with the disruption of her crying what sounds like multiple times a day. I’m firmly on team Tim here, and I agree with Alison that the frequency of the crying is the problem.

          1. NotBatman*

            At minimum, it seems like Vanessa needs a different script. “Ugh, my face is leaking, but I’m gonna push through it” is the one I’ve seen work before — it acknowledges the reality but also makes clear that there’s no serious distress here through making light.

        3. rusty*

          Yeah, this is my take. I’ll gladly step in and help someone out if there’s something happening that they’re particularly squeamish or emotional about. I’ll evict spiders for the office arachnophobe and so on. But how is the team so used to this that there’s an unspoken protocol for how to work around Vanessa’s emotions? That signals to me that Vanessa’s feelings are way too present for everyone in the office. If she asks for someone else to deal with the bird, sure, I’d be sympathetic and dispose of the poor thing for her. If everyone immediately swings into action without having to be asked, that says something is out of whack.

        4. Random Dice*

          This right here.

          There should not be a well-oiled protocol at work for managing the outsized feelings of anyone! The fact that it was so instantly enacted among multiple people is really jarring.

          OP, a missing stair is a concept that Cliff at Pervocracy introduced:

          “Have you ever been in a house that had something just egregiously wrong with it? Something massively unsafe and uncomfortable and against code, but everyone in the house had been there a long time and was used to it? “Oh yeah, I almost forgot to tell you, there’s a missing step on the unlit staircase with no railings. But it’s okay because we all just remember to jump over it.”

          Some people are like that missing stair.”

      5. Where’s the Orchestra?*

        I’ll also agree that something abruptly hitting a window and dying is the exception that proves the rule. Lots of people don’t deal well with death/dead animals.

        Signed the person who once had to calm down a hysterical coworker who found a dead mouse in his office. Sigh, HE was 37 too.

        1. Where’s the Orchestra?*

          (Just as a clarification- this was an elementary school, He was the principal – and most of the kindergarten students handled the dead mouse with less fuss than the principal did. So the five and six year olds did better than a 37 year old.)

          1. I'm an Empath but PTSD Therapy Helped*

            As a fellow empath – someone with a painful level of personal connection to every emotion of every person around me – it was very helpful to learn that excessive empathy can be a symptom of PTSD.

            Hypervigilance means watching everyone all the time for subtle signs of danger, in a way that over time becomes subliminal and somatized into your body. For me, I “feel” others’ negative emotions in my stomach, though they’re nonspecifically bad.

            I always know when someone has dark thoughts behind their smiling mask – sometimes it feels like just sadness that’s focused on themselves, and other times it’s focused on me, like their evil brain worms are crawling all over me, or like invisible flying monkeys are swirling around me.

            PTSD therapy – especially EMDR – has finally allowed me to grow a bit of emotional skin so I’m not always so raw.

            I have no idea how this OP could apply this, though.

            1. Ace in the Hole*

              I bristle a bit at calling these reactions “empathy.” I think “reactivity” is more appropriate. Calling this type of reaction empathy implies that it’s in response to a real emotion in the other person, instead of a reaction to distorted perceptions that may contain some amount of truth.

              Empathy is about understanding and sharing someone else’s emotions. My experience has been that when people have these type of reactions, they’re rarely understanding and sharing the emotion I’m experiencing… they’re feeling something much stronger and/or different in nature than what I’m feeling. It’s not empathetic to, for example, be overwhelmed with sadness from being around someone who is just feeling a bit down. Or to be shaken and panicky from interacting with someone who is a bit frustrated but still polite. The emotional connection may be painful, but not because they are experiencing the same pain as the other person.

              I realize I’m being picky, but it’s an important distinction. I’ve had bad experiences with people using their “empathy” as reason to dismiss what I say about my own emotions or regard their reactions as more valid/true than my behavior. Not saying you do this – I just think it’s important not to use language that muddies the waters.

              1. gimble*

                Bingo, Ace.

                “I always know when someone has dark thoughts behind their smiling mask…”
                Well, no. As you said, your brain and body are hypervigilant to perceived negative feelings that could be threats…but that doesn’t mean what you’re perceiving is accurate. It’s frustrating when people project their own feelings onto others and insist they’re right.

                In Vanessa’s case, it’s hard to tell if the tears are about other people at all. It sounds like everybody else in these situations is fine? I’d just call that being very sensitive. If anything, everybody else is showing extreme empathy in how they’re accommodating and looking out for her.

                1. UKDancer*

                  This so much. I don’t think you can know when someone has dark thoughts. You don’t know with 100% accuracy what your colleagues are thinking or feeling and most importantly you don’t know why. Even if you can successfully intuit from body language or other cues that someone isn’t happy, you don’t know the reason. My last director sat through a key meeting once with a face like thunder, looking really unhappy and not saying much. I was worrying whether he was unhappy with me, my team or the project.

                  At the end he excused himself and said he had to run because he had a medical appointment with his partner to get the results of a biopsy. The “angry” expression was to do with the fact he was concerned about his partner’s health issue and it was preoccupying him.

              2. Agent Elrond*

                THIIIIIIIIIIIS. People who are stoic aren’t necessarily not empathetic, they’re just not exhibiting it.

                1. Bert*

                  empath: “I think I can somehow sense what people are like and judge them based entirely on something I’ve made up in my head”

                  it’s just the modern version of “I have psychic abilities”

      7. Ellis Bell*

        I agree with you on a lot of points; it’s not the end of the world and it’s a nice thing to do. However, it’s not that they were heartier, it’s that they were concerned. They were very concerned that Vanessa shouldn’t even see it and they are probably concerned every time they see her being upset. It’s a drain on other people’s strength, even if it’s a small one, and if they were simply friends it’d be on them to opt out if the small drain added up over time. I’m not slamming Vanessa here, being sensitive is not a bad thing and it was a reasonable suggestion that people ignore her. Obviously, they are not doing that though! I have noticed that very sensitive people tend to overestimate the ability of others to be insensitive just because it is isn’t showing. I don’t think the team, or OP is a hotbed of dysfunction either, they gave it a shot and it worked at least in the short term. Now, someone else has come in with a fresh eye and they don’t think this kind of thing will work. That they have seen some people try to prevent Vanessa’s tears over the bird, instead of ignoring them, is relevant information. They have more of a look into the future than OP did when she agreed to try ignoring it.

      8. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        I am absolutely incapable of crying when I should (tragedy, grief, loss etc) But I am also incapable of getting through most movies without bawling my eyes out, so I kind of feel for you and (to some extent) Vanessa, because I know how it feels. I blew through probably a half box of Kleenex when watching Everything Everywhere All at Once and I have no explanation as to why, I was feeling generally happy and content and I could not make it stop. Honestly I’d feel terrible for the poor bird who flew into a reflection of probably a tree it was looking forward to perching in, to its untimely death. I wouldn’t cry, but I’d be upset and would be okay with it stopping a meeting for a few minutes. Maybe in the grand scheme of things that bird’s life was more important than our TPS reports!

      1. Eater of Cupcakes*

        Please ignore this comment. I only skimmed the original letter and missed that part. Very silly of me, I gotta admit.

    4. The Bill Murray Disagreement*

      Exactly. I mean, if Vanessa had only just cried (softly, maybe quietly) because a bird died and Tim spoke up with these concerns, I’d think that was a step too far. I feel like I’m a pretty emotionally resilient person who’s good at managing my emotions, but a bird crashing into a window and dying in front of me would probably make me tear up too!

      It’s the fact that OP’s team scrambled to accommodate any sadness/emotion on Vanessa’s part like it was second nature that’s troubling here!

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, the fact that the team had a sort of standing procedure in place to immediately respond by sheltering Vanessa, even before she saw anything or had an emotional reaction, indicates to me that they are spending way too much time and energy managing / heading off Vanessa’s emotional outbursts.

        If they were, as Alison says, “happy to work around it,” they wouldn’t be on high alert to protect her from being exposed to potentially upsetting input. They would just…work around it.

        They are trying to avoid the outburst so they don’t have to work around it.

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, the fact that the team had a sort of standing procedure in place to immediately respond by sheltering Vanessa, even before she saw anything or had an emotional reaction, indicates to me that they are spending way too much time and energy managing / heading off Vanessa’s emotional outbursts.

          Exactly. And they are soooo used to it that the OP doesn’t even see how beyond “quirky” this is.

        2. HumbleOnion*

          “They are trying to avoid the outburst so they don’t have to work around it.”

          Reading this it hit me – the coworkers are behaving the way people in abusive relationships behave.

        3. Dark Macadamia*

          This is what got me. “Someone stalled her” implies she DIDN’T EVEN SEE THE BIRD or know there was anything to be upset about. This office has a multi-person ORGANIZED PROCEDURE in place to prevent an adult’s meltdowns.

          1. Avi?*

            And an excessive procedure, at that. Surely they could’ve just closed the blinds and called maintenance to deal with it?

        4. MM*

          The last part. That’s exactly it. Working around it and actively managing it (because management isn’t!) are two different things.

        5. DyneinWalking*

          Yes! “Working around it” should mean:

          “Vanessa sometimes leaks from her face; she just cries more easily than most. If she continues her work like normal that means that she’s fine even if she looks distraught – so no need to tiptoe around her, just treat her like you normally would. If she is distraught, she’ll step away a few minutes to compose herself.”

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            Yes to this. I wrote a lengthy comment above before I read yours, but what I was really trying to get out was what you said here. I do not see any meltdowns in OP’s description of what Vanessa does. I see some quiet, uncontrollable face-leaking that Vanessa herself said was ok for coworkers to ignore.

          2. Junie*

            Yeah, that seems good!

            The thing is, what if one of the newbies actually has a leaky face and can see that Vanessa’s crying is something else?

            I say this because my own eyes sometimes water – and not from crying or onions, usually from being really tired but still being on the subway or somewhere instead of already home. Maybe other people who had this came up with the “bored to tears” idea?

            If I was a newbie on the team and someone told me that Vanessa sometimes leaks from her face, I actually don’t know how I’d feel (once I noticed that Vanessa was actually crying) about being told that.

    5. I am Emily's failing memory*

      Yes, I would consider that evidence that some of the team are indeed uncomfortable with her crying and just not voicing it. If it was just Vanessa’s quirk that they’ve learned to take in stride, they likely wouldn’t have sprang into action to prevent a crying episode they feared was imminent.

    6. Coffee Bean*

      I have to think, too that some of the co-workers that participated in the bird “cover up” might be trying to avoid an emotional outburst, because it makes them uncomfortable.

    7. CoinPurse*

      I had a super needy fragile colleague for whom massive binders of work arounds were created. When a new manager came in she was: “no, this cannot continue”. It was a *huge* relief when she handled this because no one wanted to say that Carmine was exhausting.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        Wow. I hope that the previous manager who created this passion project of pity was managed out and not promoted.

      2. Emily*

        Thank goodness for the new manager! Having to work with people like Carmine and Vanessa is exhausting and is unfair to the rest of the office.

    8. Modesty Poncho*

      Well OK but would you NOT pause a meeting for a couple minutes to clean up a dead bird so no one had to see it???

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I absolutely would, because that is the correct thing to do for the entire time.
        The thought should have been, “this will be unpleasant for the team. I will call maintenance ask for someone to remove it. I will reschedule the meeting so that nobody gets stuck looking out the window.”
        It should not have been, “I will conscript my staff to either run interference with one colleague or clean up dead animals. Where’s the shovel?”

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Right calling maintenance or closing a curtain or having people face the other way is not the same level of reaction.

        2. Student*

          I find this kind of glimpse into other people’s workplaces so fascinating. The cultural differences can be so huge, while people are so matter-of-fact that their way is the *obvious correct* way to cope.

          I’ve never worked in an environment where people would reschedule the meeting so nobody had to look at the dead bird. I’ve never worked someplace where anybody would try to contact somebody else to remove the dead bird, nor hide the dead bird themselves, either.

          Any place I’ve worked would expect you to politely not mention or stare at the dead bird during the meeting. There would be zero consideration of moving the meeting or rescheduling; it just wouldn’t occur to anybody as an appropriate response. Either before or after the meeting, a couple people might stand around the dead bird and stare at it, with potential comments ranging from somber, to juvenile, to superstitious, to crude/gross. Someone might try to ascertain whether it was still alive. If the bird were alive but injured badly, I could see very real potential that one of my co-workers might take it upon themselves to put down the bird. In front of an audience of co-workers.

          I have worked at places with amateur taxidermists, who would potentially lay claim to a stray bird corpse and have to be corralled into storing the bird corpse someplace appropriate, such as in their personal vehicle. Without corralling, there would be a very real risk they might try to store it someplace inappropriate in the office, the laboratory, or (I shudder, but I do not jest) the shared break room kitchen.

          I was doing work just last week where somebody tried (and failed) to gross me out by pointing out a dead mouse, and I (accidentally) grossed them out in turn by informing them of the presence of several additional dead mice they hadn’t yet spotted nearby. At this same job, a coworker and I both separately stared at a dead lizard to see if we could figure out what kind of lizard it had been. I considered it a bonding moment with that co-worker, to be honest, because I was glad I wasn’t the only person who was curious about dead lizards. We left the ex-lizard and ex-mice where they had passed on, for a variety of reasons that were mostly about personal convenience.

          1. Yoyoyo*

            Yeah honestly this thread is making me question whether I’m some sort of monster, because while I love animals (and am easily moved to tears), my thought about a dead bird would be “huh, that was kind of upsetting” and immediately move on. I have never worked anywhere where a meeting would be disrupted, rescheduled, or moved because of this.

            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              I think it depends on a number of factors such a gore, visibility, and how disruptive it seems to the people in the room. I would take it on a case by case basis, personally.

            2. Mark the Herald*

              I’m an enthusiastic bird watcher, and I get upset at a conservationist level about window strikes. I made my old job put up bird safe window decals. I might also call a wildlife rehabber, if I thought a bird could be saved.

              So I care… I just don’t see what good crying and freaking out is doing.

              1. MourningStar*

                My partner is an architect – at risk of derailing I wanted to mention here that bird strikes are things they take into account when installing large windows, and now there is specialty glass or film that can go onto glass to prevent bird strikes. It is something they encourage all their clients to use. Yay for thoughtful design!

            3. Melissa*

              Right?? I saw a dead bird as I was walking into a university class last week, actually, and I thought “Huh, dead bird” And stepped over it. I don’t *think* I’m a sociopath, but there are a lot of people on here who are clearly way more sensitive.

              2. Anne Elliot*

                +1. A lot of people here seem to be way more fussed about the inadvertent bird deceasement that I would be or would expect any one else to be, to the point that considering whether there really, truly is no blood left in my cold dead heart.

              3. UKDancer*

                Same. I went past one on the way to Tesco. I thought “yuck dead bird” made a mental note not to tread on it and resumed thinking about the shopping list. Obviously I’m not very sensitive.

            4. MM*

              I think some of it is just the somewhat random personal variation in how much of a crier a given individual is. I wondered if there was something wrong with me as a child because I didn’t cry at times lots of other people seemed to–on the last night of camp, or often at funerals. I eventually figured out I’m just not much of a crier (though I’ve become a bit more of one as I’ve gotten older). There’s nothing monstrous about it, nor does it indicate a lack of emotion–I’m very calm on the surface, but I feel things extremely deeply. It’s fine. It’s just the way I am.

            5. Laika*

              Yeah. My childhood home had a huge living room, well-lit by a large window, with a long table and tons of beautiful green plants. Unfortunately it also attracted countless birds that hit the window and often died. In the summer me or my sibling were told on a basically weekly to go chuck the dead birds away from the house/out of the garden.

              So, speaking as a seasoned dead bird veteran, apart from a couple feathers stuck to a window I have a hard time imagining a dead bird even really being that visible to people in a meeting. Like, they usually just hit the window and fall down. I guess maybe if there’s a really wide ledge that it gets caught on?

              This whole thing is wild. I kinda love it haha

              1. Avi?*

                My 8th grade school building (the town had that grade in it’s own separate building for Reasons) had large windows at the end of the hallways above one of the entrances that were magnets for the local pigeons. There would routinely be a bird print on the glass and a fresh corpse on the roof over the doorway below, and maintenance was never in any rush to remove them.

                As a bunch of snotnosed thirteen year olds, our overall response to this was a quick “Ew.” and then going on with our day.

            6. SimonTheGreyWarden*

              I think I am desensitized because when I was a child my house had huge windows in the living room, and my cat would lie in wait in the bushes and wait for the occasional bird-strike and then run out and, er, ‘finish the job.’

            7. NotJane*

              Same. My coworkers and I were sitting on the back porch eating lunch when we saw a hawk swoop down, grab a robin, then settle on the fence to enjoy it’s own lunch. After a few gasps of surprise from the group, it was just “Well, that’s the circle of life, lol.”

          2. Lenora Rose*

            Did you at least mention to maintenance or custodial staff that there were dead animal on site? I mean, being cool and calm about it yourself is one thing, as is being fascinated or curious (I have drawn dead bird remains and been absolutely delighted to see a falcon in mid feed and utterly oblivious to the matching state of the pigeon/meal), but unless this is some outdoor area, or an indoor one with a really good reason to have dead animals in it, the bare minimum is ensuring they get regularly cleaned away.

            1. Ace in the Hole*

              My assumption was that the bird flew into the outside of a window and fell on the ground outside. A single small dead bird outdoors shouldn’t normally require an urgent response or maintenance report about dead animals on site.

          3. AnonRN*

            I called maintenance (and apologized a lot, because it wasn’t their job but I wasn’t really sure whose job it was) to move/dispose of a dead bird that was visible on the roof outside a patient’s window. The patient couldn’t see it from in the bed but their family could and I figured a decomposing bird outside grandpa’s room might not instill confidence!

            Also for a while it was a thing that you needed to report bird carcasses to the Department of Health for some sort of avian flu testing. (Probably wouldn’t apply to a window strike where the cause of death was obvious.) I don’t know if that’s still true, though.

          4. Random Bystander*

            Well, with dead mice, I’d definitely want them moved (if I didn’t move them myself) because they will stink to eye-watering levels otherwise–I’m not sure why it seems that they stink more than other dead critters. Although the groundhogs at my son’s place (across the street from me) when the exterminator didn’t come for a week after the traps did give the mice a run for their money on stink.

      3. Julia K.*

        I would not pause a meeting to clean up a dead bird so no one had to see it, unless it was a customer-oriented location.

        Dead animals are a sad and unpleasant, but common, thing. Anyone who spends a healthy amount of time outside will see dead vertebrate animals several times a year. Birds that die from flying into windows are some of the least gross dead animals one encounters.

        If I had access to a shovel at work, I’d toss the dead bird into the nearest woods at my earliest convenience. But interrupting a meeting to do that seems unprofessional to me.

        To me this is a similar level of urgency (not emotion) as “someone dropped their sandwich outside.” A bit gross, and best to get cleaned up within the day so it doesn’t get grosser, but not an emergency.

      4. SarahKay*

        We didn’t deliberately pause a meeting when it happened to us. It kind of paused itself because within 10 seconds of the bird hitting the window and dying two crows had flown down to ‘investigate’ the carcass as we watched in fascinated horror.
        There was collective agreement that given how fast the crows were on it, passing out in the car park was clearly a bad idea for our health!
        Meeting then resumed, and Facilities were informed afterwards. No-one cried.

      5. Flipperty*

        But other employees (who may well have been equally upset by a dead bird but felt not allowed to express those feelings, since Vanessa is the Designated Feelings Haver) were not only forced to look at the dead bird but to actually touch and handle it. That’s not okay.

      6. zuzu*

        Depends.

        Is it dead? Like, for-real dead? Then what’s the issue? Pull the blinds, call maintenance, and move on. Freaking out about it isn’t going to bring the bird back, and unless it’s visible from where everyone’s sitting, it’s not going to be disruptive if nobody mentions it.

        Is it dying? Like, squawking and flapping and making a lot of upsetting noises and hitting the window? Then yeah, you’ll want to deal with it. Probably still have to call maintenance, and you’ll probably need to relocate your meeting.

        Birds die. It’s sad, but I’ll be honest, I never realized just HOW MANY dead birds were around until I fostered a coonhound, who managed to find (and eat!) dead birds on nearly every walk that neither I nor my other dog ever noticed before.

    9. tbs*

      To all the commenters to this comment saying – “ well, a dead bird would make me cry too! It’s a nice gesture to move it!” – keep in mind that in the scenario described you’d be one of the co-workers cleaning up the dead bird, you wouldn’t be Vanessa. And that’s the issue – many of those co-workers might have been distraught at the dead bird, but couldn’t be upset because they had to cater to the feelings with the person who constantly makes their emotions the biggest emotions of the group.

      1. mean green mother*

        Yes, this is it exactly. Vanessa sucks all of the emotional air out of the room: there’s none left for anyone else.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Very good point. As an empathetic person, I can’t concentrate when someone else is in obvious distress. Just yesterday I turned off the fan and fetched a blanket for a coworker with poor circulation who couldn’t stop shivering. Vanessa would be a constant drain on my ability to work efficiently.

      3. Always a Corncob*

        THIS. There is only room for one Vanessa on the team. Everyone else is tiptoeing around Vanessa or smoothing her path. Personally, I find declaring yourself an “empath” to be a red flag because it’s so often used by people who are just self-centered and think their emotional reality is the only one that matters, and everyone else should revolve around them.

  2. BaskingInMyWindowlessOffice*

    I would think about how the team will react. If Vanessa says something to them, or asks them if her crying affects them, and then rally behind her, then you might end up with a bigger problem on your hands than is worth creating right now, as the team is merging.

    1. Artemesia*

      I’d not worry too much about that. The behavior is ridiculous and a classic missing stair. No one should be able to hold a team hostage to their emotions. An occasional teary episode handled by leaving and getting a grip is acceptable. This constant drama is simply not.

      1. Marianne*

        It’s not drama if they mostly ignore it, though. If I knew someone whose natural response to a lot of things was crying, but they said to just ignore it, then I’d ignore it as long as it wasn’t moaning and sobbing.

        The whole bird thing did seem a bit much to me and if I were new I’d probably roll my eyes at that, but if others wanted to do a kindness and take care of it, then how can that be bad?

        1. cabbagepants*

          If we could really know for sure that everyone is truly able to ignore the behavior without it effecting them, that would be one thing, but we can’t know that. it’s been going on for ten years! people probably think they aren’t allowed to express dislike around it.

          The whole bird incident shows, though, that the team isn’t actually allowed to ignore Vanessa. rather, they are all primed to spring to action to shield her from anything that would make her cry.

          1. Observer*

            people probably think they aren’t allowed to express dislike around it.

            Of course they do. And with good reason.

            1. RussianInTexas*

              Because there will be another emotional outburst from it and they don’t want to deal with it. And because the current team lead allows it.

          2. rusty*

            Yes! Ignoring Vanessa would not involve silently and smoothly leaping into coordinated action to avoid upsetting Vanessa. That’s not what ignoring looks like.

        2. Antilles*

          “They mostly ignore it” only works so long as the entire team is experienced and accustomed to it. A newbie walking into this merger meeting and seeing her cry over totally normal reorganization talk is going to be freaked out.

          In the missing stair analogy, this is the equivalent of having a friend over to your house with the missing stair. The homeowners might be so accustomed to jumping over the missing stair, but the friend goes home with a broken ankle because of course they aren’t expecting a giant hole in the staircase.

          1. Rex Libris*

            Also, the fact that they can mostly ignore it doesn’t mean they should have to. Everyone is entitled to a relatively positive and drama free work environment, even when they’ve apparently learned to cope in the absence of one.

        3. Dust Bunny*

          This isn’t fair.

          There are different grades of “ignoring it”. You’re assuming that they are genuinely ignoring it, as in genuinely not caring, and that everyone can do that, but at least some of them are probably working hard to ignore it. I could surface-level ignore it but I’d be miffed that my manager wasn’t asking Vanessa to do more to manage it herself versus us managing it for her, and I’d be job-searching if it didn’t change.

          Also, the subtext here is that if people are bothered by Vanessa’s “quirkiness”, that’s their problem, except their emotional comfort is just as important as Vanessa’s and the approach needs to be to meet somewhere in the middle, rather than just working around the squeakiest wheel.

        4. Observer*

          It’s not drama if they mostly ignore it, though

          Except that they are NOT ignoring it. Rather they have developed a bunch of strategies to avoid it, some of which apparently have some real impacts.

          Let’s face it, the group essentially stalled the start of a meeting to keep her from melting down.

          1. Cait*

            I was wondering what people do if they need to talk to her about something work related but she’s in the middle of another crying jag. Personally, I would never want to approach a coworker to talk about this month’s budget while she was openly sobbing, even if she insisted I just “ignore it”. So now this might mean you can’t get your work done in a timely manner because every time you try to talk to Vanessa she’s weeping at her desk again. There’s no way this behavior isn’t disruptive.

        5. beanie gee*

          The “cried throughout the meeting about the merger” sounded intense also. I totally get just letting people emote, but listening to someone cry for a whole meeting that’s about an important business topic would be difficult for me to ignore.

          1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            My problem with this bit is, every single person was having their own professional life rocked to the core in this meeting. There were important things to hear and to ask.
            Vanessa cried throughout.
            Your staff needed that information. I’m super curious, OP. Did anyone ask questions, make comments, extend the meeting in anyway? Or did they all happen to follow up with questions once they were back at their desks?
            Did conversations about the merger pop up organically in the office afterward or was everyone afraid to set off Vanessa?

            1. Harper the Other One*

              Ooh, this is a very insightful question because I bet you’re right; people had questions they didn’t ask on the spot because they didn’t want to extend Vanessa’s crying.

            2. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

              Wow, I love this question and wish there was a way to flag it for OP to see!

            3. L.Miller*

              Great point about the other employees needing to process this major shift. How unfair to them if indeed they were unable to express their thoughts or concerns at that pivotal meeting if indeed it was hi-hacked by one employee.
              It is applicable to the whole situation really.
              Every day people go to work and have to accommodate Vanessa but they no doubt have their own situations to deal with and probably have moments they’d like to feel free to break down.
              But management had made it clear that only Vanessa was to be accommodated by everyone. And I’m betting many people are very unhappy with that. But feel they can’t reveal that.
              I’ll also bet many are very much hoping that Tim gets a handle on it.

      2. Artemesia*

        yeah no — constantly weeping in meetings and at one’s desk is performative, it is intrusive, it is completely inappropriate in an office.

    2. L-squared*

      I mean, they can react how they like to defend her, that still doesn’t make her behavior appropriate. Plenty of “popular” employees do things that aren’t good for the workplace. We can’t just let their popularity and have other rallying behind them stop the behavior from being dealt with

      1. BaskingInMyWindowlessOffice*

        I’m not saying ignore her behavior and let it continue, I’m saying think about the larger team as you address it and that may be a reason to take a softer approach and not a tough love approach. Don’t own goal yourself and create a bigger problem.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          I wonder about the term “tough love.” I feel it comes from OP and not his new manager. I think Tim is going to have a “tough conversation.” This isn’t about love and friendship and quirky haven, this is about respecting the needs of all coworkers, treating everyone fairly, setting boundaries for behavior.

          1. MassMatt*

            IMO the new boss has made it clear he finds the crying unacceptable and says (rightly, clearly) that organizations can become dysfunctional without even realizing it. He wants to get rid of the crier and LW’s soft pedaling of the issue is placing her own job in jeopardy.

            Mergers and reorganizations are prime times where companies look to cut costs or get rid of problem employees. And many new managers make a point of looking for someone to fire immediately in order to establish their authority (not saying it’s a good thing, but it’s most definitely a thing).

            Vanessa should have been told long ago that this was an unacceptable way to behave and she needs to take steps to change her behavior. It might be too late now but better late than never.

            I could not stand to work with someone like Vanessa, I can only imagine there are others that feel the same way and leave over it. Vanessa is costing this company employees.

            1. Yowza*

              I don’t disagree but fwiw it doesn’t say that the team has lost any members and says the team has been together 5 years.

    3. Snarkus Aurelius*

      Vanessa’s behavior is unprofessional and inappropriate, regardless of what other staff think. The LW is missing the dysfunction big time, and I’m not sure why. It’s right THERE!

      Ironically, if Vanessa is a true empath, then why isn’t she picking up on discomfort and the tiptoeing around her? She would have known that people had angst even if she didn’t know about the dead bird specifically.

      1. Observer*

        The LW is missing the dysfunction big time, and I’m not sure why. It’s right THERE!

        This is what people mean when they talk about the “missing stair” phenomenon.

        1. I am Emily's failing memory*

          Reminds me of a punchline in the too-soon-canceled-and-holds-up-surprisingly-decent show Better Off Ted:

          The Company had recently installed the toilet paper holders really far away from the toilets in the restrooms, to try to influence people to use less by making it inconvenient.

          One of the scientists is complaining to the other about this, and the second scientist says, “Just do like I do, take the roll with you when you sit down.”

          First scientist exclaims, “That’s not normal!”

          Second scientist shrugs and says, “It becomes normal. Everything does if you do it enough.”
          //

          Second scientist was dead on.

          1. Lydia*

            Some of my favorite moments are from Better Off Ted and I will quote the scientist describing the flavor of lab-produced meat forever.

            1. Laika*

              I read a news article recently about a lab-grown meatball made partially of mammoth meat..but the only reason I’d clicked on the link was because I had to convince myself it wasn’t just an image of Blobby. And immediately thought to myself, “I bet it tastes like despair.”

      2. BaskingInMyWindowlessOffice*

        Again, I’m not saying their opinion makes the behavior more or less professional. I’m just saying LW and the other manager should factor this into how they approach her and handle it.

      3. Mark the Herald*

        Yeah… I feel like we are using a pretty squishy definition of “empath” here. I’ve always thought it meant a deep concern and sensitivity toward the emotions and needs of those around you. This sounds more like someone who is very emotionally reactive and cannot or will not moderate her behavior.

        1. Storm in a teacup*

          I was wondering when someone would say this!
          As you say an empath is someone who feels deeply what others feel / should feel.
          This person seems more of a succubus.

        2. Cait*

          When I was reading this letter, I wondered if OP ever brought up seeing a doctor to Vanessa. Now, I’m not a doctor and I normally wouldn’t suggest someone elbow into a coworker’s medical situation, but I’d be hard pressed to believe that this is just “being an empath” if it’s really happening so often it’s become a problem. I think if she did approach Vanessa about it, it would have to be in the realm of getting professional advice on how to accommodate her as per ADA compliance. Tim might be insisting on “tough love” because he has no idea what else to do to mitigate the problem. But if this is a medical issue, and a doctor can diagnose how best to accommodate it, then that would make finding a solution much easier. I’m guessing it never occurred to Vanessa or the OP to bring it up because everyone has been programmed to just take Vanessa’s crying jags as part of the office norm.

          But, again, I’m not sure how OP would approach this without it seeming like she’s crossing some boundaries.

          1. Twix*

            I think this is exactly the right solution, and it sounds like what Tim has in mind. If this is a legitimate medical/psychological issue, that’s perfectly fine, but there needs to be documentation and an actual accommodation plan that doesn’t unfairly burden everyone else. If this isn’t a medical/psychological issue, it shouldn’t be given anywhere close to this degree of accommodation.

        3. Coconutty*

          I think “empath” has just become one of those buzzwords that people turn into a personality. It doesn’t actually have much of anything to do with real empathy, it usually means someone who sucks all the emotional bandwidth out of the room and expects everyone else to accommodate them and them alone.

          (Personally, I can’t stand the word. Are you an empathetic person? Great? Do you describe yourself as an empath? Uh-oh.)

        4. NotBatman*

          Yes. I’m a psychologist, and that caused my eyebrows to shoot up. There isn’t a scientifically recognized personality type known as “empath,” and there’s no equivalent concept in the literature. (High neuroticism + high emotional intelligence, I guess?) It’s a useful term, if it helps people express “seeing others’ distress is likely to trigger distress in me” but it’s not a disability, it’s not a condition, and it’s not a symptom.

          To be clear, Vanessa’s distress is probably very real. But inability to be around others’ emotions isn’t something the ADA covers.

        3. LR*

          Truth. In my experience, they very often mean:

          -I cry or act upset a lot to a degree that’s often inappropriate.
          And/or
          -Your things are actually about me! If something bad happens to you, be ready to comfort me.

          2. Empathy With Thee And Me*

            This was DEFINITELY me as an “empath” type, back in my kid years and twenties. Then I finally realized I was being inappropriate and harming others with my behavior and grew the f*ck up. I still have sudden and annoyingly outsized emotional reactions to unexpected situations all too often, but now I keep it to myself. And I also do my best to let someone who’s having trouble let out their own feelings in a healthy way without usurping the situation.

            (I may have gone too far in the other direction: now people I know are surprised at how “unemotional” and “what a good listener” I am. Or maybe I just seem that way to them now because I always had such oversized emotions and reactions in the past. I definitely do not see myself to be unemotional, at the very least.)

            The solution to toxic empathy isn’t to bend yourself into knots to keep the empath happy. It’s for the empath to get their crap together and manage themself and their emotions like a healthy adult.

          3. Kate*

            That matches everyone who’s self-described themselves as an empath to me as well.

            Everything is about them and their emotional responses. Everything.

      5. Sopranohannah*

        Honestly, someone saying they’re an empath is a red flag for me. I’ve never met someone that straight up said they were an empath that was actually good at reading or responding to other people’s feelings. They’ve all just had Really Big Feelings that were sooo much more important than everyone else’s and expected everyone to cater to them. I was on Tim’s side the moment I read that.

      6. I Fought the Law*

        Because there’s no such thing as an empath. That’s not a real thing. It’s fine to be deeply empathetic. But “empath” is, in my experience, a word mostly used by pretty terrible people as they weaponize their emotions, performative or otherwise. By her use of that word alone, I can also virtually guarantee that Vanessa is a white woman, and I wonder how her BIPOC coworkers feel about her constant emoting. She’s sucking the air out of the room constantly and never leaving room for anyone else’s feelings or reactions.

        1. rusty*

          Yepppp. I experience an unhelpful degree of empathy and generally excessive vigilance around other people’s feelings, because I was raised with a mentally ill parent and terrible boundaries. I am working hard in therapy to come up with better boundaries. I’m not An Empath. I’m not a special magical kind of person who needs a special label, I am in fact dysfunctional, and nothing about my situation means that I don’t have to bother containing my emotions at work.

        2. Twix*

          Yep. I have no problem with the actual definition of “empath” – “Someone who feels empathy much more strongly than the average person and is particularly adept at recognizing other peoples’ emotions”. By that definition, I’d probably qualify. But far, far more often than not I see it used to mean “Someone who feels emotions so strongly that they should be exempt from following social norms and respecting boundaries”.

    4. T.N.H.*

      I think this could be said of any toxic behavior from an employee and is exactly why OP should have nipped this in the bud a lot sooner.

    5. Office Lobster DJ*

      I share the concerns about the timing and the wider team’s reaction. Maybe the team would be relieved to see someone tackle this situation (many would), but if the team instead rallies behind Vanessa and perception is that big bad new boss Tim is going after poor sensitive Vanessa who would never hurt an injured bird, who knows what could happen.

      How that concern would change my advice is that OP should consider the stability and well-being of the team at this critical time as priority number one. This might mean putting aside your own preferences or “being the bad guy” in the name of the greater good.

      1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        I really feel this. The staff has been in “vanessa first” mode for five years. It is ingrained. Coming in and saying, nope, we are not going to do this anymore could backfire.
        People hate change. People like to feel they are in control of SOMETHING.
        Don’t make this a thing we will be reading about next year’s “what caused the biggest blow out at your office?”
        – we got new desk phones and people lost their minds
        – we changed the coffee and people lost their minds
        – the vendor sent different free cookies and people lost their minds.

        1. Mark the Herald*

          Chairs, man.

          I’ve been a three offices now relations broke down completely about which office chairs to get. Like, from kumbaya and rainbows to meetings where people were so upset they stood and shouted. Words about other people’s taste and aesthetic values. Judgements about who was thrifty vs. trashy. Camps dividing between “ooh hoo hoo Little Lord Fauntleroy, but in my day we slept on rocks!” versus “this place is going to look like an on-fire crack house and our clients will turn and flee if we let them past reception.”

          Chairs.

        2. vegan*

          Not everyone hates change, and not everyone has to feel in control “of SOMETHING.” Besides, I admire Tim for making this a priority. I mean, what – everyone is supposed to abide Vanessa’s tears indefinitely, no matter the context? That’s the kind of toxicity a lot of people seek to avoid. More power to you, Tim.

          1. Office Lobster DJ*

            Can only speak for my own take, but it’s not about “indefinitely.” It’s about this being a time of flux for the team where they are building trust and rapport with Tim. They’re sizing him up, just as much as the reverse. Dysfunctional as this situation may be, there is a risk to Tim if he’s perceived as a bully going after poor helpless Vanessa.

            That risk can be mitigated in a few ways. First, by letting Tim establish himself a bit more with the team, the better to weather the waves this causes. The other way, if this is going to be handled now, is to have known-quantity-OP do more of the heavy lifting. In my estimation, it’s just as well that the issue got tabled for the moment.

            1. LR*

              There’s a greater risk to Tim if he’s seen as incompetent and unwilling to lead because he refuses to nip this wildly inappropriate behavior in the bud. Many of his best, most reasonable employees will see this as a lack of leadership.

              If this was my team, I would never be mean to Vanessa or complain to my boss, who clearly thinks she’s handling things just fine, but I would be very, very sick of this behavior. That’s not even going into the other new team members who are very unlikely to be comfortable with all this.

              Saying “don’t curtail unreasonable behavior because some of the team might actually like it” is so wildly illogical that I’m shocked this become a discussion point. If someone is unwilling to ever work with Tim or give him the benefit of the doubt because he told someone it’s not ok to constantly cry at work, that person is probably way too deep in this very unhealthy culture and needs to be let go.

              1. Mister_L*

                An aspect of the “missing stair” that is often overlooked when quoting it is, that the person pointing it out is considered to be in the wrong by the in-group. Nevertheless, it sounds like half of the team is new and probably not used to, let’s be blunt, coddle Vanessa.

                Let’s hope this doesn’t turn into a “team drives away every replacement for a deceased teammember”-situation, because with half of the team not on board it could crash the whole department.

            2. Office Lobster DJ*

              “Saying “don’t curtail unreasonable behavior because some of the team might actually like it” is so wildly illogical that I’m shocked this become a discussion point.”

              I’m so confused — no one is saying this. No one is even suggesting the original team likes this behavior, just that it’s entrenched at this point.

              1. BaskingInMyWindowlessOffice*

                Exactly. It is not about whether to tell her there need to be changes to her behavior, but about how to do it. It might warrant conversations with the whole team or something bigger thansolely talking to her about it.

  3. Nina Bee*

    Work shouldn’t be pseudo-therapy. Vanessa needs to deal with how to handle herself in a professional environment, no matter how empathic she feels she is (I’m also an empath but would not act that way).

    1. lilsheba*

      Same here. I am an empath and feel the feels about so much, and the feels of people around me, and get overwhelmed by people very quickly. But anything work involved doesn’t make me cry, there isn’t anything there all that emotional.

      1. Michelle Smith*

        I have cried at work more than I’d like (not as much as Vanessa, only a handful of times but still embarrassing) and I have very unstable emotions, but I agree generally. There isn’t much at work I find that upsetting/emotional.

    2. Quite anon*

      As an empath, Vanessa acting in this way would actively make me depressed. This isn’t empathy.

      1. ThePear8*

        Same here – seeing other people cry often makes me upset and even tear up too! This would be extremely difficult for me to ignore or work around.

    3. Cheezmouser*

      My husband is an empath and doesn’t cry constantly. The most common emotions he picks up at work are coworkers’ stress/anxiety/frustration/insecurity/ego, not sadness.

      Regardless, Vanessa needs to develop her own coping strategies, possibly with the help of a therapist. Having coworkers bend over backwards to protect Vanessa only delays her from developing the strategies she needs to function. My husband has coping strategies such as separating his own emotions from the emotions of those around him, going outside, letting in fresh air, moving away from people, etc. As Alison suggested, she should find out what works for her and see if her workplace can accommodate her.

      1. Lydia*

        It’s interesting that you mention a lot of OTHER emotions that she doesn’t seem to pick up on, unless every emotion causes a crying reaction. Which is odd. You’re happy, she cries. You’re anxious, she cries. You’re really frustrated about the printer not working, she cries.

    4. AA Baby Boomer*

      Is by saying she is an “empath” a manipulaiton? By throwing that out there, she’s forcing others to accomidate and deal?

      I have severe anxiety and I use medication and other tools to handle it. I do not expect accomidation beyond the ability to attend my thereapy and doctor appointments. She would send me over the rails.

      1. hbc*

        She may only be intending it as an explanation, but the majority of times I’ve heard “empath” deployed, it’s been intended as a get-out-of-bad-behavior free card. The people who feel the need to announce their status aren’t very empathetic–they’ll

        You can’t say “I’m an empath so y’all just have to let me cry anywhere and only deliver feedback in a compliment sandwich that has eight slices of bread” any more than you can say “I have anger management issues so I’ll be muttering angrily at my desk on a daily basis and I’ll be walking out of meetings if I think they’re a waste of my time.”

      2. Lucky Meas*

        This is how I read almost every utterance of “I’m an empath”. It’s an excuse for inappropriate behavior that centers the speaker and cries for pity.

      3. Ultra Anon*

        I’ve known my share of self-described empathy, and every one of them was just exhausting to be around. You couldn’t ever confide in them because they would always turn the discussion to themselves to the point you were soothing them and managing their feelings about your problem. I’m sure actual empathy don’t behave this way, but sometimes I think it’s a cover for covert narcissism.

      4. Nina Bee*

        hard agree, there’s a little too much of allowing herself to be coddled in that scenario. She should really look at talking to a professional to get to the root cause of why she cries so much (which could be a serious issue and I do feel for her if that’s the case), rather than just collecting enablers

    5. Turquoisecow*

      Empath doesn’t mean super emotional it means you’re absorbing other people’s feelings. I’d be working hard to clamp down on my own feelings because I didn’t want to inconvenience everyone and potentially feel their negative emotions by disrupting the workday. Like the meeting started late. How many other team meetings have been totally derailed because she cried in the middle and everyone stopped work to make he feel better? That’s not empathy, that’s making everything about you and your feelings and disregarding everyone else’s feelings and needs, including those of the business. What if they miss important deadlines because they have to have a half-day impromptu therapy session with her?

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        nod. I do absorb emotions. I’m more balanced now that I have medication, but I avoid a lot of in person nonsense

        1. Lydia*

          I’m curious, though, when you do absorb emotions from people, do you express the same emotion. If someone feels frustrated and pick up on that, do you feel frustrated, too? How do you express that emotion you’re picking up on? I’m wondering why her empathy is only expressed through crying and if that’s common (not just crying, but having a consistent reaction to other people’s emotions).

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            no, I just internalize so if I’m in a big meeting full of stressed people I’m stressed out too. I do not know why she cries, but sometimes I cry when overwhelmed or stressed. Her threshold for tears is probably just lower.

            1. connie*

              That’s not being an empath. That’s being a normal human being in a room full of stressed people. Emotions have a contagious element. There’s nothing special about that.

    6. allathian*

      Vanessa isn’t an empath. If she were, she’d be reacting to the feelings of those around her. As it is, she’s the missing stair who’s forcing everyone else to manage her emotions. She’s sensitive, and cries easily, but she’s not doing anything to make things more comfortable for the people around her, as I suspect a real empath would try to do.

      I’m an empath in the sense that I’m pretty good at reading the room and gauging the feelings of others in the same physical space, but I don’t get overwhelmed by other people’s emotions, at least not unless they’re really extreme. Working with a crier like Vanessa would definitely make me uncomfortable, though.

    7. MigraineMonth*

      I always thought being an empath was a sci-fi concept, not a personality type. I would describe myself as empathetic, as in I’m sensitive to others emotions (particularly distress). For me that doesn’t mean I mirror others’ emotions, though; quite the opposite. I usually become eerily calm to deescalate the situation, then deal with my own emotions later.

      1. Nina Bee*

        there’s actually two types of ’empathy’ (according to science) .. one is sympathy (where you recognise the other person’s emotion and behave in a way to acknowledge that but don’t necessarily feel the same thing) and one is empathy (where you actually feel what the other is feeling in yourself) :)

        1. penny dreadful analyzer*

          It’s fascinating to me that the terms “sympathy” and “empathy” have switched definitions as “empathy” has become the more popular term–“sympathy” has a long history of meaning sharing the feelings of another, and “empathy” was coined pretty specifically to mean a measure of distance–insight into or understanding of someone else’s psychological or emotional state, without necessarily sharing it.

          I wonder if it’s just that “empathy” has become the higher-status word, so it gets applied to whatever Thing About Feelings the speaker thinks is better or more evolved, and there’s been shifts in what various parties think is the higher-status way to relate to other people’s feelings.

      2. I'd Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

        I mean, it is a sci-fi concept. It was popularized by Star Trek long before it shows up in any psychological research…and the rate at which it has been adopted by the internet has far, far outpaced any research on the topic.

        When people say they are empaths, what they are generally saying is that the emotions they percieve in others heavily impacts their own emotional state. That is fair and there is plenty of evidence that some people do have more affective empathy than others. This is akin to what you’re saying when you describe yourself as an empathic person.

        There are some claims that some people have empathic ability that allows them to pick up on emotional states…essentially psychically. This is where we should be really wary. I think we should be very skeptical of Vanessas (or any others) who claim to be ‘picking up’ on feelings that other people deny having. As others have pointed out, this often feels like it is used as a pass for bad emotional regulation.

  4. ItIsWhatItIs*

    It is bonkers to me that, to prevent Vanessa from having a melt down, your employees had to rush to dispose of a dead bird so she didn’t see it If that doesn’t strike you as dysfunctional I think your radar is a bit broken LW.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Ehhhh. I know some people who are REALLY, really sensitive to things involving animals, and having to deal with dead birds isn’t really a job requirement. It was kind that the team cared to do that, and absent all other context that wouldn’t bother me.

      That said, with all the other context I agree it’s a red flag that they are bending over backwards to accommodate this person’s emotional needs way too regularly.

      1. I edit everything*

        Surely the bird wouldn’t be visible from inside, though. With a window strike like that, the bird just drops straight down. You’d have to be right up at the window and looking at the ground to see it. I could see Vanessa getting upset if she witnessed the bird strike, but moving a bird she wouldn’t see anyway? Ehhhh.

        1. Rainbow*

          Only bird strike I ever saw at work was in a glass-fronted building. It was really very grim, and everyone could see it who walked down the corridor. I didn’t cry but once I’d noticed it I made sure not to look that way again. I love cats and if I saw one dead I would probably be upset for like a month ngl

          1. Lydia*

            Once, on my way to work, I struck a bird and it got caught in my grill. I didn’t realize it, but some of my students did and very kindly volunteered to get rid of it. I still frequently think of that poor bird. Animals tend to stick with me, so I know if I had heard about or seen the bird it would have been an intrusive thought for a while. I’m with Eldritch Office Worker. Cleaning up a dead bird on its own if you know someone is sensitive to animals is not the issue; it being one of many work-arounds and having an advance team ready to intercept her is.

      2. Ama*

        I think it depends on what was done. If the team member stepped out and said “Vanessa you might want to wait a bit, a bird hit the window and you might want to stay here while it’s cleaned up,” that’s one thing. If the team member couldn’t even tell Vanessa what was going on because it would set her off, that is being too accommodating.

      3. Snow Globe*

        I do wonder—did they rush to do this because they feel compassion for Vanessa, or because they didn’t want to have to deal with her likely reaction?

        1. Lavender*

          That’s what I was wondering. It’s fine to want to avoid making a coworker sad, if it can reasonably be avoided. But you’re avoiding it because the effects of making them sad would be catastrophic, that’s not a good dynamic.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          I would do it to avoid her reaction.

          I mean, it definitely would bother me that the bird died, but I could handle that much better than Vanessa’s sobbing.

        4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

          Almost certainly because they didn’t want to have to deal with her reaction. I bet they’re sick of her. They’ve shown far more patience with it than I would have.

      5. hbc*

        Yeah, you can be the person who can’t handle animal fatalities, or the person who doesn’t take feedback very well, or the person who somehow causes more little disruptions than average. You can’t be all of those things.

        1. Lavender*

          I agree. It’s okay to have quirks, and it’s okay to be unusually sensitive. It’s not okay to let those behaviors go unchecked to the point that your coworkers feel like they can’t let you see or experience any situation that *might* upset you.

    2. Lavender*

      I think there’s a difference between “we shouldn’t let Vanessa see the dead bird because it will make her sad,” and “we absolutely cannot let Vanessa see the dead bird because otherwise we’ll spend the whole meeting managing her feelings.” The first option is fine (and arguably a kindness), but it sounds like the second option might be at least partially at play here, and that’s an issue.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yes that’s a more nuanced articulation of the point I was trying to make. I agree.

      2. Mockingjay*

        That’s what I was coming to say. OP, you and your team are managing Vanessa’s feelings, not work tasks. You need to redirect the focus.

        The fact that team members jumped to avoid catastrophe so quickly tells me that they are tired of Vanessa’s outbursts and are taking it upon themselves to mitigate/prevent, because you aren’t.

      3. Lavender*

        Addendum: if it were purely the first option, the other people in the meeting would be able to say something like, “Hey Vanessa, there’s a dead bird outside the window of the conference room and I know that kind of thing gets to you, so it’s okay if you want to wait outside until it’s been cleaned up.”

        The fact that they couldn’t even tell her about the dead bird without potentially detailing the meeting makes it seem like there’s more going on here.

      4. Pennyworth*

        A normal reaction would be “Vanessa, why don’t you it with your back to the window, there is a dead bird out there” followed by ”Vanessa, why don’t you take a minute or two and come back to the meeting when you have recovered your composure”. She needs to know that she can’t sit in a meeting with tears streaming down her face and that she needs to regulate her behavior. I’m totally with Tim.

      5. ItIsWhatItIs*

        This also read to me that it was option two. They went to pretty great lengths in an office setting to avoid her getting a hint of it. They must be exhausted managing her emotions to keep the work day going even semi-smoothly.

        1. Lavender*

          Yeah, if it’s possible to easily prevent a coworker from seeing something that might upset them, I’d say that’s reasonable to do. For example, if I had a coworker who was very squeamish about blood, I might give them a heads-up to stay away from an area where someone was cleaning up after a bad cut or nosebleed. But when it becomes a multi-person effort to prevent the person from seeing even a hint of the thing that might upset them, it’s gone too far. (To use the same example, I wouldn’t tell the hypothetical coworker who was bleeding to escape out the back door while another coworker staged a distraction.)

          1. elle *sparkle emoji**

            Yeah, I think this is a good comparison. I’m bad with blood, but it would be unreasonable to expect others to enact an Ocean’s Eleven-style caper to prevent me from witnessing any blood. This situation feels like its swung to the extreme of accommodating Vanessa, possibly to the detriment of other coworkers’ needs.

      6. House On The Rock*

        Yes perfectly stated. I am, perhaps, not getting all the background, but my sense from the letter was this was an orchestrated effort to shield Vanessa because her reaction to the bird would consume the team.

        I’m very sensitive to the slightest animal suffering, but I’d be mortified if someone thought they had to intercept me while a colleague disposed of a dead bird!

  5. SlimJimbutnotSlim*

    Honestly, this sounds like the plot to episode of The Office: every meeting cuts to one person crying, then when they hire someone new that person is visibly concerned when this person is crying during a celebration lunch but everyone else treats it normal. Hilarity ensues.

      1. Anonymosity*

        Colin Robinson is the energy vampire. He was dating Evie the emotional vampire at his work but she was too much even for him.

      3. LifeBeforeCorona*

        As soon as Colin Robinson ventured into his office as an energy sucking vampire, I recognized at least 4 co-workers as the same.

  6. zinzarin*

    My money says Tim is a reader of this column. His language–as passed on by OP–sounds like it’s really close to an Alison script.

    3. Agent42*

      Tomorrow: “I recently started a new job that I’m really excited about thanks to all your interviewing and resume advice. It is a significant increase in pay and a great chance to join a growing team after a merger. It seems like a fantastic opportunity! I’m struggling with how to approach one of the long-standing team members though….”

    4. Olive*

      Saying “I cry a lot, please just ignore it and it will be fine” also sounds like an Alison script.

      But I’d expect that for someone tearing up quietly at their own desk or not being able to put their feelings aside when dealing with bad news. “at… team lunches” really took me aback. I don’t really like dealing with other people’s strong emotions at work, but when they’re handling it at their desk, that’s a me problem. I absolutely don’t want to work somewhere that team lunches get derailed by crying.

      I did wonder if the work environment is toxic and stuff comes up all the time that might make a person want to cry, but both the OP and her account of Tim sound reasonable and grounded overall.

      1. beanie gee*

        I manage someone who tears up frequently in our 1-on-1 ones when we talk about workloads and things that are stressing them out, and they’ve given me direction to just keep going. But if this was happening frequently outside of 1-on-1s it would be a whole other conversation.

        1. gsa*

          What makes crying the in 1 – on- 1s more or less OK that every other day interactions???

          1. The Gollux, Not a Mere Device*

            I’m not beanie gee, but one significant difference is that it’s OK for a person’s one-on-ones to focus on that person. There aren’t other people in the meeting who also need to get the information, or ask questions, or provide updates on their current projects. just the manager and the person who they’re meeting with.

            That focus on one person also makes it harder for the person in question to hide their emotions. If you, Tangerina, Fergus, and I were all in a meeting, I might be able to suppress or get past my reaction while you were answering Fergus’s question, or asking Tangerina something. For a question addressed to the group, like “what’s wrong with the new polka dot glaze ?” it wouldn’t be obvious that I wasn’t jumping in to answer first. If nobody else jumped in, I wouldn’t stand out, and if someone else spoke up quickly that would give me a minute to compose myself.

          2. Ultra Anon*

            I’ve cried out of frustrations in a few 1:1’s. I don’t love it and I’m sure it’s distressing for my boss, but sometimes I just can’t keep a lid on it. The thing is, I don’t do it constantly and if I started to, I would probably talk about it with my therapist so that I could get it under control.

            1. NotBatman*

              I think it’s also a matter of comfort. If I have a longstanding and friendly relationship with my boss, then there’s not only more information for my boss to know I’m probably fine while crying, but there’s also more room for my boss to say that we need to pause a meeting until the emotional tone changes.

          3. amoeba*

            There’s also a difference whether somebody tends to tear up a little during discussions about genuinely stressful/emotional topics (which it sounds like to me here!) or randomly for no discernible reason!
            (Also, if I happened to tear up during a lunch/larger meeting, I’d try to hide it – excuse myself, go to the bathroom, pretend to blow my nose, sit quietly and not contribute until I’ve got myself together. In a one-on-one, that’s naturally much harder to do.)

        2. Alexander Graham Yell*

          Yep, I definitely have times in mine when I’ve gotten teary and asked my boss to do the same. In the meantime, I worked on ways to trigger different physical responses to overwhelm the crying (it turns out pinching the skin between my thumb and forefinger works REALLY well – not hard enough to hurt, but firmly enough to make it my body’s focus), and we discovered that a change in venue makes it a lot easier. So when I’d start to tear up, we’d move our conversation to the coffee shop downstairs and we could have a completely normal conversation, sans tears. It’s nice to have a boss who will let me push through when we don’t have other options, but knowing my triggers and how to manage them makes a big difference, too.

      2. Cobol*

        I worked with somebody who cried all the time when she was the center of attention (even just people looking at her). Not waterworks, but definitely tears. It didn’t happen when she was presenting. It was just something she did, but was absolutely amazing. Our clients were the most techy of the techy for a company with a trillion dollar tech company, and she worked directly with their clients. It was absolutely never an issue. She was 25 at the time, and I don’t know if she got parts it, but it has no bearing on her being amazing.

    5. Starbuck*

      Well, partly his approach was bad (” Tim scheduled a meeting with me to discuss Vanessa. First he asked me if she had a specific diagnosis or any ADA accommodations”) that is not a question you should be asking about a coworker, it should be more open ended and definitely not asking about a diagnosis! But asking for context on a very strange behavior that is bizarrely normalized was fine. Something more like, “I’ve noticed this behavior and it’s uncomfortable/concerning, what’s up with that, can you give me more context on how to deal with it” would have been better.

      1. sagc*

        That is… exactly the sort of questions managers should ask before making sensitive corrections to an employee!

      2. L-squared*

        Disagree. It seems he is her manager now (I don’t really understand the exact situation, but it sounds like Tim and OP are co-managers). This question is something management and HR should know before going further to deal with the issue.

      3. VRC*

        Specific diagnosis? No. But yes your manager should be aware of reasonable accommodations that may be needed. I don’t think he was out of line to ask but maybe misspoke about the diagnosis part.

      4. Lana Kane*

        I didn’t read it ass wanting to know what it was, but has she been officially diagnosed with a condition and requested accomodation because of it. I think it’s good that Tim started there.

      5. Trillian (the original)*

        If they’re supposed to be operating at the same level, I’d be slightly wary of Tim until he had established himself as helping to solve the problem rather than setting himself up as the saviour of this dysfunctional team.

      6. Just another anon*

        He’s the manager, though. He does need to know if there is an ADA accommodation or he could be in big trouble for ignoring it.

  7. Salsa Verde*

    There have been other questions about crying or highly emotional/emotive employees, and I’m so glad that Alison advises that this is not ok at work. I have cried at work, I get it, but I would be very upset and disturbed if a coworker cried during meetings or at their desk even once a month, honestly. It’s very upsetting to me if others are upset, and while I understand that is my own problem, Alison’s point about accommodating one person at the expense of the mental health of the others is very welcome.
    I would make every effort to avoid Vanessa if I worked here.
    And I think Tim actually sounds like a great manager! Addressing the problem directly and even pointing out how dysfunction can become normalized can be difficult but he is not shying away from it! Go Tim!!

    1. Distracted Librarian*

      Every bit of this. I get that we all have emotions and can’t entirely shut them off at work. But people who have poor emotional control at work (frequent crying or frequent anger or something else), force those around them to perform extra emotional labor to either defuse them or try to ignore them. Being able to manage emotions appropriately at work seems like a basic expectation.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Agreed.

        Crying (or other intense emotional displays) at work are understandable once in a while under exceptional circumstances. E.g. receiving tragic news, witnessing an unusually upsetting/traumatic event, going through a period of intense stress, etc. But it should be the exception. Not an everyday occurrence.

    2. Meghan*

      Yeah, agreed. Crying *can* happen at work, but it should be rare, and not common place. Life happens and we have emotions! Having someone crying at work on the regular would make me very uncomfortable.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      I’ve cried at work but over occasional, very specific things (my cousin’s dog died suddenly, for instance), not just, like . . . in meetings.

      1. NotBatman*

        Yes. Tears happen, but if they do during a meeting then that’s a time to say “sorry, just going to step out” and use a bathroom until they stop.

    4. Just another anon*

      Absolutely agree with this. I have a friend who is very emotionally stable, actually the most level-headed person I know, but she cries when she sees someone else crying. I just imagine a chain reaction of crying here. Definitely not fair to other people on their team!

  8. zinzarin*

    My money says that Tim is a reader of this blog. His language sounds very familiar.

    2. ariel*

      I love his question if I’d quibble with the phrasing – really gets to the heart of the matter.

      1. Starbuck*

        Yeah asking about a diagnosis was not the way to go but it does make sense to ask for context on a very unusual behavior in the workplace.

        1. KatEnigma*

          Remember this is LW’s version of what he asked and he might not have said that word for word.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      I wouldn’t be surprised if he weren’t, though. Good managers are everywhere and they’re good because there is a fairly narrow range of how to handle things that good managers actually do. (Whereas bad managers have a whole range of bad things to do that actually make them bad managers.)

      1. cabbagepants*

        All good managers are alike, but every bad manager is bad in its own way. (with apologies to Tolstoy)

          1. Iris Eyes*

            Definitely a great theme for a roundup of similar situations, range of terrible management solutions!

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Dang, Tolstoy.

          The phrase does capture the sense that bad managers are looking for new and unique ways to top the bad managers who have come before them.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      He could be, but also “is there some kind of ADA aspect in play here” could just be a more tactful way of saying “do you not realise how dysfunctional this is?!”

      Tim is right.

      I also feel sure Tim won’t involve you in the management process any more (in fact why was he brought in to “co-manage” the team? Do you OP think a co-manager was needed? I think senior management probably already know that something is amiss, and that OP seems unable to use management skills in addressing it) and will just take that up with the employee directly, and he would be quite right to do that too. You and Tim agreeing to table it doesn’t mean much. It just means he will handle it without bringing it to you.

      I would be very uncomfortable around her (the employee) as, I suspect, are a lot of the team members even if they seem to go along with it and accommodate her.

      However I do have to wonder if this attitude runs upwards, as the management (presumably) have now recruited Tim to help deal with this, rather than take it up with OP!

  9. Falling Diphthong*

    Apparently I have a visceral reaction to the words ‘quirky’ and ’empath.’

    Long-standing teams can be dysfunctional and not realize it because we are so used to working around it.

    Tim is certainly right about this as a general life rule, and I believe he’s also right about it in this specific case. That doesn’t mean that his tough love approach is the most effective one to rectify this–but I believe he’s right that Vanessa is your department’s missing stair.

    I agree with Alison that you’re prioritizing Vanessa’s feelings and emotional wellbeing at the cost of asking extra care and support and hoops from everyone who isn’t quirky.

    1. Minerva*

      Little to add except to say I think I had the same reaction to ‘quirky’ and ’empath.’

      Tim might be harsh but I think he is right about the dysfunction and the need to deal with it.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        The second I read “empath” my internal person rolled her eyes. The few actual empaths I’ve come in contact with tend to be very close to the vest types because they deal with so much of others’ energy.

        2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          This. It has taken years to set up boundaries to protect myself from feeling overwhelmed by other peoples’ energy/emotion. I grew up having to adapt constantly to volatile family members and learned to ‘read the room’ very young. I still don’t call myself an empath, just someone with heightened sensitivity to how others emote ‘out loud.’

      2. Queen George*

        Agreed. I get very prickly at the idea that“quirky” is always accompanied by the suggestion of “overtly and glaringly”. Many, many fascinating and unique people are able to be fascinating and unique in without constantly drawing attention to their own fascinating uniqueness.

    2. Distracted Librarian*

      I have the same visceral reaction to both terms. In my experience they’re often euphemisms for some kind of disruptive dysfunction.

        1. Frickityfrack*

          I’m starting to doubt that they do, because literally every single person I’ve ever met who described themselves as an empath was either A) just hypersensitive to other people’s moods/reactions because of abuse or B) had poor emotional regulation in general. Oh, or the occasional third option of someone who just wants attention but only seems to be super sensitive when they know people are watching.

          1. Myrin*

            It always sounds like a magic term to me. I certainly don’t know enough about the psychology behind it to adequately assess the term but the first (and for a very long time only!) time I encountered the expression was in some kinda of wizard-y comic strip so I just can’t take it seriously IRL.

          2. Distracted Librarian*

            Or, option D: projecting (which could be a subset of option A) and/or assuming. As someone with a chronic case of Resting B*tch Face, I get so tired of having to convince other people that I’m not mad/sad/otherwise upset. Nope, just thinking. Or staring off into space.

          3. Clorinda*

            If empath means a person with a naturally high EQ, they’re real enough. If empath means Person With All The Dramatic Reactions, well, they are also real. Fortunately, the first type won’t pester you about it–they’ll go about their lives either being widely liked or profoundly and evilly manipulative. And the second type are kind enough to warn you.

          4. MEH Squared*

            Just putting this here, though it could go anywhere in this thread.

            The thing is that any term someone uses to repeatedly describe themselves is usually misapplied. Like the guy who says he’s a nice guy or the guy who calls himself a feminist or the white person who says they’re an ally in racial issues. You don’t get to assess it for yourself–only others can do it for you. It’s aspirational at best, but many people cannot discern who they are with who they like to think they are/want to be.

            In addition, reifying any one aspect of your personality to the exclusion of the other parts (or just hanging your hat on that aspect of your personality) means that you (general you) have an investment in seeing yourself that way and will not be amenable to someone disagreeing with you.

            I am empathetic to an unusual degree (though I don’t use the word empath; I don’t like it), which means I can feel other people’s feelings. I don’t bring it up because nobody wants to hear that. I have studied Taiji (tai chi) for sixteen years, and it’s enabled me to enact shields to block out other people’s feelings to some degree, but I’ll always be sensitive to other people’s feelings. Believe me when I say it’s more a curse than a blessing.

            keep it to myself because it’s my issue to deal with. Vanessa doesn’t sound like an empath, really, but just very sensitive in general. It’s difficult to regulate your emotions when you’re that kind of sensitive, but it can be done. Tearing up briefly–acceptable. Bawling at your desk or during lunches for no apparent reason–not so acceptable.

            Tim’s not wrong. I’m sure having to manage Vanessa’s emotions has become a chore for her colleagues.

          5. laser99*

            My experience has been a person who is exquisitely attuned to every shade and variation of emotion…their own. Never a thought for anyone else.

        2. hodie-hi*

          Deanna Troi is an empath.

          Some folks like to feel their feelings AT other people. Some also think the world is doing things at them. Family. *sigh*

        3. I am Emily's failing memory*

          Yeah, being an empath is not prohibitive of having emotional regulation. I routinely tear up at emotionally manipulative 15-second television commercials (see: Subaru commercials where a young couple with a puppy montage into parents giving the car keys to their teenager while their elderly dog softly wags his tail from the porch) when I’m at home, because there’s no need to regulate my emotional expression at home by myself. I very much have the capacity to rein it in when I’m at work – it’s a skill that like any other will be harder for some to learn than others, but it can be learned. Wearing every emotion you feel inside on your sleeve is not an immutable trait.

          1. Cake or Death*

            “I routinely tear up at emotionally manipulative 15-second television commercial”

            This is EXACTLY me lol.

      2. Meep*

        ^The problem is people who often call themselves “an empath” are usually using the “fact” to step on people and aren’t really empathetic in the slightest.

        Someone who is “quirky” thinks it is cute to be disruptive. Kind of like “Oh I am so clumsy!” main characters that are always tripping over their own two feet to fling themselves at their love interest.

        People need to stop basing their lives around TV tropes.

        1. Rex Libris*

          What gets me is how often they don’t see the contradiction between being an “empath” and being entirely unaware of their own emotional impact on those around them… It’s almost like it’s selfish, attention seeking behavior and not empathy at all.

        2. LB33*

          It doesn’t sound like that’s what Vanessa is doing though – from the description she has serious problems if she’s crying this frequently at the office, not trying to be cute and quirky

    3. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I have the same reaction to the word empath too. But that’s because all the self proclaimed empaths I know not only tell/show you how upset they are but there is almost an air of superiority that comes with it. Almost a bit of subtle shaming if you don’t care as much as they do but “It’s ok sweetie, I’m just an empath! I just care sooooooo much”

      Not suggesting Vanessa is like this but every time I hear someone use that word to describe themselves, I cringe.

      1. Zap R.*

        It’s like when people use “introvert” to mean “smarter and more civilized than you chatty peasants.”

        1. Relentlessly Socratic*

          Apropos of nothing, but please tell me your ‘R’ stands for ‘Rowsdower’

        2. MeetMoot*

          Yessss this irks me endlessly. It feels like the two options are always presented as ‘Quiet, pensive, intellectual, cultured introvert’ or ‘Loud, abrasive, attention-seeking, partying extrovert’. Spare me.

          1. NotBatman*

            It’s all the fault of Susan Cain. Her book “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking” is unscientific, unresearched, and low-key sexist and racist in places. However, it’s also spectacularly well-written. So it’s largely responsible for the idea of introverts as superior beings (and “introvert” as a category, which is also unscientific) entering the popular lexicon.

        3. Jill Swinburne*

          Reminds me of the recent letter about younger workers refusing to do public speaking because they were introverts, or something. Not everything that makes you a bit uncomfortable must be accommodated.

      2. Cool Tina, Train Conductress*

        I love peeking at the empath subreddit. there are literally posts like, “I feel uncomfortable around my boss, who says he dislikes me. does that make me an empath?”

    4. Salsa Verde*

      And it’s not clear to me that Tim is describing his approach as tough love, only that the OP has characterized it that way. It sounds to me like Tim is going to clearly describe the issue, give examples of what he would like to see and a timeline in which he’d like to see it. The only reference to tough love I’m seeing is how OP describes it. I’m wondering if that’s how Tim would characterize it.

      1. Kit*

        Said this below, but yes – I would not be surprised at all if the average AaM reader (or Alison herself) would describe Tim’s proposed approach as “matter-of-fact.” If you know Vanessa is going to cry regardless, at a certain point all the softening language in the world will not help and being straightforward without being cruel is kinder than dancing around the point and hoping she receives the message.

        1. Warrior Princess Xena*

          Yeah, at that point tone and method of approach are going to be a lot more effective than softening language. I know when I’m having a lot of Big Feelings I really benefit from taking emotional cues from coworkers or friends who are exuding Levelheadedness (to be clear, I’m not bursting into tears at meetings, but being able to take a minute and just listen to someone who is being professional is a helpful thing). Having someone have Feelings back at me is usually a good cue for me to have a good old-fashioned crying jag, which can be good if I’m at home and comisserating with a friend but really bad in the office.

    5. sookie st james*

      Big agree re: ’empath’… I question the judgement of someone who frames their disruptive/unsettling behaviour as a positive personality trait, rather than acknowledging it as a problem.

      The actual definition of empath is “a person with the paranormal ability to perceive the mental or emotional states of others around them” – even ignoring the ‘paranormal’ part, the fact remains that she’s suggesting she’s so sensitive and receptive to the feelings of others around her that she can’t control her emotional outbursts. But nothing in the letter indicates that this is actually the case (except maybe the bird thing) but rather that the crying spells occur in response to feedback or personally struggling with change – nothing to do with being empathetic to others.

      The irony being, of course, that her behaviour is likely causing other people distress and she’s not noticing because she’s so wrapped up in her own emotions. (And has been given carte blanche to express them).

      Look, I cry a LOT – so I’m not unsympathetic (some of us just react tearfully to any strong emotion we feel!) through crying. But professionalism demands you learn how to manage your emotions privately. Your colleagues should not have to take on the emotional burden of managing your feelings for you.

      OP – I would imagine the prospect of finally accepting that this is a problem is overwhelming and unpleasant because Vanessa has proven herself unable to take feedback calmly. You know deep down these conversations are not going to go well. Which is proof in itself why it has to be dealt with.

      1. GreenDoor*

        Thank you sookie st. james for providing the definition of an empath. I am more of a matter-of-fact kind of person and it irritates me to no end when people say “I’m an empath” when they really mean “I can’t manage my own emotions and I cry at the drop of a hat.” OP, you really need to collaborate with Tim on a solution here. Alison is spot on when she theorizes that you likely have staff members who do NOT appreciate having to constantly work around Vanessa’s feelings. I know I’d be silently seething. A point you might want to raise with Vanessa is that she’s likely sabotaging herself. I mean, the same people who jump up to clear away the dead bird and fetch her kleenex may also be thinking “she’s weak…she can’t be relied on…she can’t handle the harder work…thank goodness that crybaby isn’t on my team…”

        1. sookie st james*

          Agreed – even if I wasn’t actively angry about it, I know it would be very emotionally draining, even if you had a good relationship with the person and sympathised with them. The workplace just shouldn’t demand this kind of emotional labour from people.

        2. Ultra Anon*

          Or “ I’m an empath so I’m going to turn everything conversation we have about me and you’ll end up managing my feelings about how you’ve had a bad day.” It’s hard to be friends because you’re constantly giving and end up feeling like you’re getting cheated out of a real friendship.

      2. Cheezmouser*

        +1000

        I’m married to an actual empath, and while I’m sure every empath is different, I don’t recognize any empathic traits from OP’s description of Vanessa. There are no descriptions of Vanessa perceiving or reacting to the emotional states of people around her, but rather of Vanessa reacting with strong emotion to just about everything, or nothing, or things that happen to her. I would recommend that Vanessa get a formal evaluation or diagnosis, since there may be other things besides high empathy going on.

      3. anxiousGrad*

        Yeah at some point you need to learn how to manage your emotions. When I was in preschool I always cried literally anytime I saw another kid cry, even if I didn’t like that kid or know what they were crying about (which in retrospect must have been really annoying for the teachers). A lot of times adults would comment on how sweet I was to care so much about the other kids and I would always think, “but I don’t actually care, I don’t know why I’m crying!” In any event, I learned to stop doing this by the time I was like 7. It’s high time Vanessa learned, too!

      4. STAT!*

        Thanks for the definition sookie! The “I’m psychic” claim inherently made by many “empaths” is one of the reasons I doubt this is a real thing.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      Nope, right there with you.

      I feel like people want “empath” to be an excuse to demand emotional management the way they use “autism spectrum” to explain jerkwad behavior. It doesn’t exempt the person from learning to manage their own behavior!

      (I’m on the spectrum, for the record.)

      1. Morning Flowers*

        Amen. Also on the spectrum — you still gotta manage yourself, and it makes tactful but firm intervention when you aren’t MORE important, not less.

    7. the cat ears*

      I sympathize a lot with Vanessa, because I have felt like this in the past. I have been the person who gets emotional easily.

      I also severely limited myself socially and professionally by doing that. It took therapy, getting on the right antidepressants, and treating some other underlying health issues to be able to regulate my emotions better. But it wasn’t other people’s responisiblity to walk on eggshells around me until I did that.

      1. Observer*

        You make a really good point here.

        OP, if you REALLY want to help Vanessa, please find out what resources your company has for mental and physical health. Because Vanessa doesn’t sound like an empath, but like someone with very poor emotional regulation. If you are right that she’s also a genuinely nice person, she probably has some issues that one would hope to address. What those issues might be are not really your business. But what is your business is to point her to whatever resources available (not to tell her which ones to use, just to let her know that those choices exist) and to provide whatever accommodations that you can that she would find helpful.

        1. elle *sparkle emoji**

          I agree there could be something going on that isn’t “Vanessa is an empath”. If hypothetically it ended up needing accommodations though I’d want to point out to OP that the current approach isn’t an appropriate accommodation for this type of thing. I was a little bit of a Vanessa when I was in Jr high and high school and had disability accommodations. To deal with my emotional moments, I literally had an accommodation to leave the room at any time for a few minutes. This allowed me to deal with things, but also meant I was the one dealing with my emotions, other people weren’t being forced to deal with them too.

    8. Serious Silly Putty*

      I find “quirky” useful because it’s not my place to label people as neurodivergent… but I DO think neurodivergence is something worth mindfully accommodating.
      Where I tend to go is, “if this person disclosed a neurodivergence to me and asked for ADA accommodation, would I give it? And if so, then why make them disclose at all, if we can brainstorm an accommodation without it?
      But I think the overall point about balancing EVERYONE’s emotional needs still stands. So maybe the accommodation is that her desk is an acceptable place to cry, and she has permission to excuse herself from meetings when needed. And they should disclose V’s trait to the new staff, so that they are not alarmed by her crying at her desk.

      Also, on the flip side, I want to acknowledge that neurodivergent people sometimes get frustrated when that’s used as an excuse for poor behavior. Ex: autistic women are conditioned to figure out how to not rock the boat in group settings (at great mental expense, sometimes) so it’s grating when someone dismisses a male’s rude/mansplaining behavior as “oh he’s just autistic he can’t help it.” My point is just that “quirky” can be a useful term.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I’ve seen many an internet comment section where people with condition X are very frustrated that someone is waving off bad behavior as “That person has condition X, and everyone with condition X is thoughtless and hurtful in that exact way.” Many people with condition X are not thoughtless or hurtful in that way!

        For example, people with both self-diagnosed depression and self-diagnosed ADHD who believed the condition fully explained their uncontrollable rage meltdowns, which their loved ones needed to better accommodate and stop being upset by.

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        I think your approach to disclosures/accommodation is great! I am going to adopt it – it articulates something I’ve been trying to think through but not quite getting there. Thank you!

    9. Observer*

      That doesn’t mean that his tough love approach is the most effective one to rectify this–but I believe he’s right that Vanessa is your department’s missing stair.

      This is the thing. The OP may be correct about the best way to approach it, but right now they are not a good judge because right now they don’t even recognize the problem. They think that “everyone” is OK with this, which is a highly questionable assumption based on what they say; they seem to see Tim and the new team as interlopers who are trying to make unwarranted changes; and the clearly don’t understand that Vanessa’s behavior AS THEY DESCRIBE it goes well beyond “quirky”.

    10. RagingADHD*

      In about a half-century on this earth and a very wide acquaintance of people in all walks of life (including performers who emote for a living, social workers, and mental-health professionals for whom empathy is a core feature of their personality) I have never, ever, ever encountered anyone who exercised real empathy describe themselves as an “empath.” Nor have I encountered a single self-proclaimed “empath” who was actually tuned into or even mildly interested in anyone else’s emotions. Never. And I’ve met quite a number of them.

      Most of the self-proclaimed “empaths” I’ve known could do a halfway decent “cold read” of people’s facial expressions, as any adult with typical social skills could do. A few were on par with your average fake psychic/mentalist.

      But every single one of them was far more interested in projecting their own emotions onto other people, than in making time for, hearing about, helping with, or even respecting anyone else’s emotional struggles.

      In every instance, the word “empath” translated in practice to “untreated/undertreated disorder + poor personal boundaries.”

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Agree that most people use “empath” incorrectly. My husband is an actual empath and I’ve watched him for 20+ years. You are 100% correct:

        1) he never calls himself an empath and never tells anyone about his empathy. (Why would he?)

        2) he can do cold reads of people beyond regular social cues. It’s interesting to get the lowdown from him when he goes to large industry events and doesn’t know everyone, because he can tell who is genuine, who is trying to suck up, who is nervous but hiding it well, who hates/fears who, etc.

        3) Once he actually gets to know someone, he can sometimes read pretty deeply into them, to the point of understanding the parts of them that they don’t want to admit even to themselves. I’ve told him that it’s a good thing he’s a nice person, or else he could really hurt people by making them face ugly truths about themselves that they don’t want to face.

        4) he never projects his emotions onto others. Empathy is about perceiving/absorbing other people’s emotions, not vomiting yours onto other people. In fact, he is one of the most emotionally stable people I know, simply because he must manage other people’s emotions on top of his own. If he didn’t have strong emotional management skills and the ability to understand and separate his emotions from others’, he’d be a total mess. This is probably why he is also extremely chill, laidback, and not easily ruffled. If he actually reacted to everything he felt, he’d be totally exhausted by noon.

        5) others would sense his empathy and come up to him, instead of him trying to attract others’ attention. When he worked in retail, people would go from asking him how to find an item on the shelf to confiding in him about their worries about their son who was caught smoking weed, their spouse has been acting distant, etc. All he was trying to do was help them find a CD!

        tl;dr, yeah those people you met who claimed to be empaths were probably not actual empaths. Or if they were, then their empathy was out of control and not being managed well.

        1. Lydia*

          You just described the skillset for what cold read psychics do. Your husband has a whole side gig he can get into!

          1. Cheezmouser*

            For real. I sometimes think that he could probably make a ton of money by charging celebrities for telling them who are their genuine friends vs. who’s just there for the money and fame. It’s super easy for him to spot genuine vs fake motivation. I’ve seen him point out the fakers in a room without even talking to them. I’m sure some celebrities would probably be interested to know which friends are real, but alas, he just uses his empathy to navigate his coworkers’ emotional currents and wrangle me and the kids.

            1. Chelsea*

              Bonus, once he tells someone their friend is a fake and they actually listen to a complete stranger and cut them off, their friend isn’t going to stick around to tell them they were wrong! It’s a guaranteed 100% success rate.

        2. RagingADHD*

          I would be fascinated to know how he has verified his “reads” of complete strangers at a conference, and how many people he decided were nervous or hated someone just had a migrane, or a bad nights’ sleep, or were hungry.

          Most people call this people-watching. It’s a great creative writing exercise.

          1. rusty*

            This, definitely. I have quite strong empathy and my gut feeling about people is accurate more often than my husband’s is – based on a handful of people over the years who’ve given me the heeby jeebies but not him, and who we later wished we had never had to deal with. BUT I also project like whoa sometimes. And unless events play out in such a way as to prove or disprove my gut, I’ll never actually know if I was right or just making shit up.

      2. Yoyoyo*

        Yes, yes, YES. I am a licensed social worker practicing therapy, which requires a high degree of empathy in order to be effective. I frequently have clients tell me I must be psychic. I am not psychic and I am not an “empath.” I grew up in an abusive environment in which I developed a knack for reading people as a survival skill and was expected to have zero boundaries, emotional or otherwise. In my adulthood and particularly my career I needed to develop solid skills for maintaining emotional boundaries. In my personal life, when I let those boundaries down, yes, I cry at the drop of a hat. But it is my responsibility to manage that at work so as to be effective for my clients and my colleagues.

        1. Artemesia*

          Empath is a scifi thing — there is no such thing. Yes some people are VERY astute at reading social signals and emotions. But I agree that those who call themselves ’empaths’ much like those who claim to be very sensitive, are mostly sensitive about any slights to themselves and not truly empathetic to others.

        2. New Jack Karyn*

          I want to expand on what you wrote about growing up in an abusive environment.

          In my unlettered opinion, many of the people who are using the term ’empath’ to mean ‘I don’t have control of my own emotions’ ARE also good at reading others’ emotions–because of growing up in abusive environments. Both are (or can be) responses to childhood trauma, and can co-occur.

          But that doesn’t make it easier for the folks who have to deal with others’ emotional dysregulation at work.

      3. SweetFancyPancakes*

        Yes, this! I was trying to come up with a comment earlier but couldn’t word it as well as you did. The closest thing I have ever met to a true “empath” is my sister, who has always been extremely sensitive to the feelings of everyone around her- but she never turns the attention back on herself, but uses her skills to help others navigate their own situations. She is a clinical social worker and currently works with kids, some of whom have gone through nightmare situations. If she was the kind of empath that so many of the self-proclaimed ones are, there is no way she could be effective in her work.

        1. UKDancer*

          I think a lot of social workers develop really good abilities to read people and work out what they’re feeling quickly. It goes with the job. My company employs a couple of ex police and they have a similar ability but more around noticing anything different or changed because the job has led them to develop really strong reflexes and an understanding of what’s going on. So I can believe that people can have or develop an above average ability to read people, especially if their job requires it.

    11. I am Emily's failing memory*

      Yeah, “quirky” should be used for something along the lines of your coworker who microwaves her salad every day because she likes hot lettuce. Oh, that quirky Roberta and her hot salads!

      Instead it becomes a euphemism for someone whose behavior is beyond the pale, but for whatever reason it can’t or won’t be addressed, so instead it’s treated as if it’s nothing more than a preference for hot lettuce. (Or, if the person has money, they’re “eccentric.”)

      1. Allonge*

        Also, quirky is often used to indicate that the person cannot in any way handle any change to what they are doing. Roberta naturally falls apart and is Not True to Herself TM if she cannot microwave the salad one day because there is a citywide power outage, instead of being mildly frustrated but happy this is the worst that happened to her that day.

    12. RussianInTexas*

      I do too.
      Just reading the description of Vanessa made me angry and anxious. I can’t imaging working with her.
      There is “quirky” and then there is “walking on eggshells lest we upset her”.

  10. Artemesia*

    I was really afraid Alison was going to react that this had to be accommodated and glad to see she didn’t. This is classic missing stair behavior. No team should have to put up with this regularly. An occasionally bought of tears — and letting the person leave and pull themselves together — is part of working with people. Having someone hold the whole group hostage to their drama, is not. She needs to grow up and manage her emotions in the workplace and accommodation should involve letting her seek out privacy to get a grip, not letting her make every meeting revolve around her emotional state.

    1. Distracted Librarian*

      Exactly. And even the “seeking privacy” part shouldn’t be overused. If she has to remove herself from every meeting or team lunch to deal with her emotions, that’s also a problem.

      1. Modesty Poncho*

        So genuinely, what’s the answer? Should she not be employable because she cries sometimes? If she’s at or gets to a place where she’s quietly crying, not loudly sobbing, and it’s not acceptable to cry in front of other people, and not to cry at her desk, and not to cry in the bathroom because it’s too often….what? Enforced work from home? Fired?

        1. Yoyoyo*

          Yes, at some point, if she is unable to get it under control she may need to be let go as it is disruptive to the business. It’s not a reasonable accommodation to have to leave every meeting. She needs to figure out a way to manage this, whether it is through accessing an EAP, other mental health resources, etc. If she’s not able to do that then she might have to go.

        2. Storm in a teacup*

          That’s a little dramatic no? Surely the first port of call is to name the problem (which Tim has done) and work with the employee to understand why it’s an issue (impact on the wider team who should not be held hostage to their disruptive behaviour). Then work with them and coach them to address the issue and develop their soft skills. If you reach a point where employee is no longer suitable for the job and need to be managed out, it’s not a kindness to keep them on due to impact on the team.

          Also there are i’m sure plenty of jobs out there where constant crying wouldn’t matter at all w.g. Remote worker from home, onion chopper…

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          I think this situation is somewhat on par with the letter from the person whose spiraling anxiety because a coworker hadn’t said “good night” to her ended in her driving to that person’s house and demanding/pleading for an “explanation.” She was lucky she wasn’t arrested, and ended up being fired.

          The thing is, that employee understood she had anxiety, that it wasn’t being managed well, that she had spiraled, etc., but she still couldn’t get it under control and made it her co-worker’s problem, to the point that that co-worker rightly felt they couldn’t continue working with her. Her employers were correct in saying we get you have X problem but we cannot allow it to become everyone at work’s problem to work around.

          Vanessa may not be as dramatic on that front, but she has successfully created an environment where everyone is managing FOR her, instead of her managing her own issues. Tim’s reaction is frankly the first breath of fresh air their team had probably received about this issue in years.

        4. Critical Rolls*

          This is not a “sometimes” thing, it is clearly a very regular thing. Can you agree that it’s a problem that she would apparently have to excuse herself from any slightly stressful meeting? From *team lunches* for Pete’s sake?

        5. metadata minion*

          There is a very strong chance that she can get her crying under control with proper mental health care (or physical health care — it’s not impossible that this is a hormone imbalance or something). That’s not always easy or cheap for someone to access, and so I would want to give her as much leeway as possible while she figures out a treatment plan, but the solution can’t be “this person is extremely disruptive and is going to keep being disruptive forever”.

    2. Mr. Shark*

      I’m with you there. Alison is usually more accommodating than I would be. :) So I wondered the same thing, and I was pleasantly surprised that she recognized that it was unreasonable to have to deal with this on such a regular basis. I can see occasionally, but we all have to be professional and change our behavior at work, regardless of how we would normally act and react outside of work.

  11. Allornone*

    As someone who used to only wear waterproof mascara because there’d be a reasonable chance I’d cry on any given day (or, um, every day at least once), I feel for Vanessa as well. But Alison’s right; that level of emotion is just not appropriate or productive in the workplace. I had to learn to reign myself in. It wasn’t easy- and there are still times I want to break down (I’ve had a very rough of couple of years), but I hold it together at work, because that’s just what I need to do to maintain a sense of dignity and professionalism. I will say I was mildly proud of myself the first time I bought regular, non-waterproof mascara.

    1. EBStarr*

      This is so heartwarming and amusing at the same time. I love the idea that buying regular mascara can be a symbol of a hard-won triumph. You should definitely be proud!

    2. sookie st james*

      Congrats on the mascara!

      I’m also A Crier but I have never let myself have an emotional outburst at work – I’ve felt choked up and has to silently try to compose myself, or felt an anxiety attack coming on and excused myself in advance, but I can’t even imagine feeling comfortable bursting into tears in front of colleagues. Excluding when I worked in hospitality – the crying doesn’t count when the customers are always trying to make you cry.

    3. Daisy-dog*

      I also cry a lot. It can be silly reasons like I will randomly have a sweet/sad memory that makes me tear up. Or I’m listening to a podcast that takes an emotional turn. Hearing really good news like someone’s promotion can also trigger tears. I have ways to control this. (If I thought I was alone and wasn’t, I pretend I almost sneezed and it passed.) Anything beyond just a couple tears does mean that I find privacy first, but that hasn’t happened in the last few years.

  12. DrSalty*

    I am wondering what type of crying Vanessa is doing. Is it like, “mostly silent dabbing her eyes trying not to make a fuss” crying? Or is it like, “audibly weeping” crying? All of the above? Somewhere in between?

    I’m wondering since she asked you all to just ignore it, and I know how uncomfortable that would make me as her coworker would depend on the type of crying we’re talking about. The former is easy to deal with, the latter not so much.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I wonder about this too, and maybe the OP can comment with more info. I started off the letter picturing Vanessa’s crying on the “sometimes tears leak out of my eyes but I’ll dab them away and you should all ignore them” side of the spectrum, but Tim being distracted by her crying and her coworkers trying to head off the crying in the bird situation had me leaning more toward “audibly weeping” by the end of the letter. Like you, I would pretty easily be able to ignore silent tears and would be very distracted by audible weeping.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        I’d still agree with silent tears that actually run down her face that she should leave the room

        1. Double A*

          I think someone who has a physiological reaction to certain stimuli that makes their eyes leak… that could be something a team reasonably ignores. I’m thinking of when I was pregnant, pretty much all music made me cry. Was anything the matter? No! Not at all! I promise I am not invested in this insurance commercial, it just has swelling strings that make my eyes leak! If I had been in a work setting where music played frequently, I would have missed a lot if I had to leave every time my eyes leaked (fortunately I wasn’t).

          If someone is a known quantity of eye leakage and can kind of laugh it off and be discrete about wiping and step out if it goes beyond some tearing up… that seems like it could a quirk a team could accommodate. But the team isn’t just ignoring the tears, they are *managing* them and it sounds like Vanessa expects this. That’s a big problem.

          1. allathian*

            Oof, I teared up at the drop of a hat when I was pregnant, and I just put it down to hormones. I had to quit watching the news because any news involving children would have me bawling uncontrollably. When I was pregnant, pretty much every emotion I felt would make me cry. I’m very glad I had my own office at the time. Now I share with someone else, but we sit back to back with a cubicle wall between us, so I could get away with silent tears… That said, I’m mostly remote, so I could be weeping all day and nobody would be the wiser, unless I’m in a meeting with cameras on.

      2. I am Emily's failing memory*

        Or even if it’s not audible, there’s also a difference between “Vanessa is silently shedding a few tears while being visibly engaged with the meeting (eye contact, participation where expected),” and “Vanessa is giving the floor a 1,000-yard stare with her face scrunched up in an expression of despair while others awkwardly try to have a business discussion.”

        If it was really just silent weeping, but she was dabbing her eyes with a tissue so that she didn’t have tears running down her face, and she was still nodding along with the presenter, and asking/answering questions as needed, it might still be jarring to someone new. But it’ll be far less off-putting if they learn that the team is just politely ignoring someone’s unintended crying the way they’d politely ignore someone’s unintended fart, in a “can’t always control biology!” way, than to be blindsided in a meeting by someone having A Very Emotional Reaction that includes but isn’t limited to tears, and then to see everyone else in the meeting awkwardly try to carry on like it isn’t happening/without addressing it.

    2. Bibliothecarial*

      I wondered that too. I remember someone on here looking for scripts to tell her colleagues to ignore her leaky eyes. Audible or visible sobbing is unprofessional, but leaky eyes are fine at my workplace. (Ever since I turned 20, my eyes have been very leaky and none of my colleagues care.)

      Also, you can lay out expectations clearly with someone leaky-eyed as long as your tone and demeanor is compassionate!

      1. DrSalty*

        Yes, that letter is exactly what I was thinking of. But from Tim’s reaction it sounds like maybe that is not the situation here, there is something more going on.

    3. K8T*

      Both kinds would make me deeply uncomfortable. And as someone who’s cried at work a couple times (horrible job clearly, frustration tears are a real thing) – I’ve never done so in front of someone. You simply have to excuse yourself when you feel it coming and go somewhere others aren’t

    4. Daisy*

      Yes, this is what I was wondering also.
      Getting teary and quietly wiping away, preventing others from seeing and becoming distressed? Fine by me, although I do think some therapy around regulating her emotions/distancing her emotions from work performance may be helpful.
      Audible weeping and “performance crying” which can derail a meeting or change the behavior of others is something else altogether. Having two coworkers jump into action to delay her and remove a dead bird, instead of just directing her to sit with her back to the window before she sees is a bit over the top IMO.

    5. Samwise*

      Doesn’t matter. Silent dabbing your eyes at every meeting and team lunch? Yeah, no. It’s just as disturbing. Someone is sitting there suffering…quietly…bravely dabbing their eyes…trying so hard not to make a fuss — but it IS a fuss.

      I’d be distressed at anyone emoting like that, I personally might ask them to come on out in the hall and let’s talk depending on our relationship (I have done this with coworkers in the past). And if it happened all the time, day after day, year after year? I’d be *mad* — it’s disruptive and distressing and frankly forces everyone to notice and pretend not to notice.

      1. Modesty Poncho*

        “Someone is sitting there suffering…quietly…bravely dabbing their eyes…trying so hard not to make a fuss — but it IS a fuss.”

        This is you projecting. If I’m sitting quietly, crying but otherwise calm (no big loud sniffs, no sobs, watching what’s going on), I AM TRYING TO BE IGNORED. I do not want attention. Attention and fuss will make it worse. It is not manipulative, it is not under my control. If you can’t put your own emotions aside and believe her when she says it’s nothing, that’s not her fault.

        1. Storm in a teacup*

          So if you worked with someone who always cried and was upset and told you to ignore it whilst they sat quietly dabbing their eyes, could you ignore it? Would there be zero emotional toll on you to do so?
          Modesty I guess you relate / empathise with Vanessa (no pun intended) but the reality is, most people are kind. Most people want their colleagues to be ok. Seeing someone crying generally means they’re not ok and that’s not as easy to ignore as you seem to imagine.

          1. ItIsWhatItIs*

            I would also have a very hard time ignoring someone silently crying every single day as well.

        2. vegan*

          The appropriate and fair thing to do is to excuse yourself, leave the room, go off by yourself, and return once you have calmed yourself. Basic manners. Not complicated.

        3. takeachip*

          I think the commenter you replied to was talking about the impact of the behavior, not the intent. It may seem like “nothing” to the person crying but it’s unusual and uncomfortable to other people in a work context, and no amount of “don’t mind me” signals will change that. It’s like asking people to ignore a parrot on your shoulder. Even if the parrot stays as quiet as possible and doesn’t flap or hop around, it’s still a parrot and its very presence is distracting.

        4. Samwise*

          OK, I agree, I amped it up.

          But truly, if someone is quietly crying at meetings and team lunches and at their desk on the regular — not just once in awhile but every day? For **years**? It’s disturbing and distressing to have to see and hear, it’s *work* to just ignore it. And clearly OP’s staff isn’t really just ignoring it, they’re trying to prevent it.

          It’s too much. It’s inappropriate.

          Here’s the thing — it may not be in Vanessa’s control. That doesn’t make it appropriate behavior. That does not mean that everyone else ought to adjust to it.

        5. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

          I feel like I have seen both the kind of crying Samwise is talking about, and the kind Modesty is talking about, and they’re *different* – you probably couldn’t put the difference into words, because it’s about the dynamic and the vibe in the room, but you know it when you see it.

          Modesty, do you think your coworkers would say that your crying “mostly” wasn’t a problem to them because “they’d adapted” (while also taking action to try and avoid any situation arising where you might cry)? Or do you think they’d say something more like “… hmm, I guess she does leak from the eyes, now you mention it? We don’t really take notice of it any more than Leslie’s hay fever”?

          1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

            Hey, Modesty, I hadn’t read to the end of the thread and you provide a lot more context, so ignore my questions here! FWIW I used to have a slide at the start of my lectures warning that I would cry (I’m an English professor and I CANNOT read sad passages aloud without crying, and I taught a lot of sad books!) – different situation but a bit of overlap. I hope you find a good place to work.

  13. ThatGirl*

    I’m gonna say something potentially controversial: I don’t think being an empath is a real thing. I think most people who call themselves empaths actually have anxiety, serious boundary issues, or a history of abuse that makes them very sensitive to other people’s feelings.

    Now, I’m not trying to diagnose Vanessa here. And as someone who occasionally tears up herself at inopportune moments due to frustration or an excess of emotions, I get that sometimes people can be sensitive without being wildly unprofessional. But if she cries that often, it definitely seems like she needs a push to deal with this herself and not count on others to coddle or ignore her.

    1. They Called Me Skeletor.....*

      being an empath isn’t about someone being sensitive. most empaths will feel the emotions of every single person in a room when they walk in if they don’t have a good enough coping mechanism in place. it goes well beyond the normal feeling of empathy. most empaths deal with social anxiety disorder because it’s very difficult to be in public and to feel all of that pummeling you every minute that you’re outside of your house.

      1. Dr. Rebecca*

        Sorry, I have to agree with ThatGirl–the type of empathy you’re talking about doesn’t exist. This isn’t ST:TNG. If someone thinks they feel my emotions when they’re near me, they’re either accurately reading my expression or something else in my body language, or they’re wrong.

        1. DocVonMitte*

          This. As someone who is neurodivergent, I’ve never had an “empath” read my emotions correctly.

          1. ADidgeridooForYou*

            I feel this so hard haha. A lot of times my face/body language don’t reflect what I’m actually feeling – I often seem upset when in fact I’m not. There have definitely been a number of “empaths” who say they can sense I’m sad when I’m just chilling.

          2. hatorade*

            I remember waiting for the train and a complete stranger walked up to me and said “I’m an empath, so I can totally feel the ~vibes~ you’re putting out. Hard week huh?” She also acted like this was a huge inconvenience for HER.

            It was 5pm on a Friday, so it wouldn’t take a genius to figure out that the average human taking public transit at a peak travel time at the end of the week would be a bit tired/stressed.

            No self proclaimed empath has actually had any empathy when it came to someone else’s situation, they just made it about themselves.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              There was the shop that received a 1-star online review from an empath who allowed that the goods and service were great BUT the terrible black clouds of energy coming from the sales clerk’s spirit were overwhelming to a delicate empath.

              The shop copied the review, put it on a sign out front, and sold T-shirts.

              2. Martin Blackwood*

                Im the opposite of an empath, but ive had that “oh weird vibes coming from the barista in this artsy hole in the wall coffee shop” moment. Doesnt take exceptional skill to pick up on that
                (I didnt write a bad review. My barista assigned chai tea latte was very good)

              4. UKDancer*

                Sounds like the colleague who said I had a distressing aura and the colours made it hard for her to focus. I had no clue what to do about it. I don’t believe auras exist and if they do I can’t help the colour of mine. I thought we got on fine so I was somewhat stumped.

            2. Irish Teacher*

              I once had the most bizarre conversation online where I was having a conversation about books with somebody and mildly disagreed with them…I wasn’t even arguing, just “yeah, I suppose that could be the case sometimes, but I don’t think it’s always true” and they responded with “well, I’m going to end this conversation because I can feel that you are really tense and I don’t want to absorb that emotion.” Um….I thought we were having a fun conversation here.

              The person didn’t specifically describe themselves as an “empath” but…that seemed to be the sort of vibe they were giving.

        2. Richard Hershberger*

          I was going to go with the ST:TNG reference too. When someone tells me they are an empath, I think they are imagining themselves as a Federation counselor. Except for that guy in college, this being before TNG came out. He was odd mostly in how unempathic he was. He wasn’t a jerk about it. He just seemed to entirely miscalculate what was normal, perhaps due to his lack of empathy, and imagined that what little empathy leaked through was remarkable.

        3. Peanut Hamper*

          Troi was actually like that in the pilot episode of ST:TNG and it was annoying AF. I’m glad they toned it down afterward.

          1. Richard Hershberger*

            In fairness, most of the first two seasons were annoying AF. Even the episodes that didn’t feature Wesley Crusher.

            1. Relentlessly Socratic*

              I’ve renamed that episode of TOS as “The poor woman who was gaslit into being a martyr”, but it’s not as pithy…

        5. Roland*

          I love all the comments on this letter that are like “she doesn’t sound like an empath at all! I would know because I really AM an empath, unlike her, the faker”.

          1. Queen George*

            Whenever someone tells me an empath story, I always wonder “But how do you know that you were correct in your perceptions? Are you sure you aren’t just going to parties and turning everyone into a character in a short film in your head?”

            1. AnnieB*

              I think this! people used to always confidently report to me what were the hidden dynamics between people, the secret background etc, and I always wondered how they could TELL, dammit, when I would be thinking “well this combination of behaviours suggest either this, or this, but then again if this other factor is in play which we don’t know about it could be this”. I thought I was completely unperceptive. and then the first time someone confidently described a situation to me where they turned out to be completely wrong, I thought “hmmmm, maybe I’m not less perceptive…. maybe I’m just more realistic”

      2. ThatGirl*

        I agree that it’s not about being sensitive. I’m saying I don’t believe empaths can actually feel the motions of everyone in the room — I think it’s nearly always a projection of anxiety, poor boundaries or abuse.

      3. Robin*

        “Empaths” are, to me, part and parcel of the New Age woo that’s taken over parts of the internet. This type of empathy that you describe does not exist! And if you feel like that, please go to therapy.

          1. Emily*

            I don’t think having a debate about whether empaths exist is helpful. It’s not really relevant. Whether or not Vanessa is indeed an “empath”, the issues are how she is behaving at work, how it is impacting others, and what should be done to address it.

          2. Student*

            I think that there are people who sincerely believe that they experience other people’s feelings.

            I think there are people who sincerely believe they’ve experienced ghosts, alien abductions, and spoken to animals, among other phenomenon.

            I don’t believe that any of these people are correct. Just that they are sincere in their mistaken beliefs, and probably also in need of professional help.

            I think that if any of these abilities or experiences were real, we’d be able to document them, study them, reproduce them, and collect mountains of compelling evidence about them. I also think that if these things were real, corporations and governments would be making & spending money over them, because profit makes the world go ’round. Corporations would post empath job positions. The government would hire animal speakers to deal with animal control issues and work at national parks. Everyone would hire alien abduction victims to siphon as much alien tech intel they possibly could. Real estate agents would routinely offer ghost rehab, relocation, and remediation services as part of their services, and mortgage lenders would ask questions on forms in triplicate about a residence’s hauntibility rating.

            So, as soon as a marketing or banking company posts an opening for an empath, or a job where empath abilities are a listed requirement, then I’ll believe.

            2. House On The Rock*

              You may enjoy the Netflix series Lockwood & Co. as it’s kind of this premise.

        2. They Called Me Skeletor.....*

          most empaths already are in therapy but thanks for the recommendation.

          2. Former Young Lady*

            That’s a…bold claim. Can you cite an evidence-based source that defines what an “empath” really is, and provides hard data for a percentage of such people who are in therapy?

            1. They Called Me Skeletor.....*

              unfortunately, there are no studies. however the empath group I belong to about 85% of the people, and this is a group of about 5,000 people, are in therapy.

      4. Zap R.*

        I don’t think that’s being an empath then; I think that’s having social anxiety disorder.

      5. Hi! Hello! Good morning!*

        Funny how they never feel the positive emotions. They don’t feel elated when someone “in the room” read a text with happy news, they don’t feel proud when someone “in the room” sees they got all As in their last semester, and so on.

        1. Gemstones*

          Yes, I don’t understand it either…why does Vanessa’s empath-ness only manifest in tears? She never picks up on joy?

    2. Chick (on phone)*

      I am a person who would fall under the “empath” umbrella and I agree with you entirely. I also think it’s a terrible idea to romanticize being an empath- I find it exhausting and annoying to deal with.

    3. Ammonite*

      Ehhh, affective empathy is a real thing, and people have varying degrees of it. “Very sensitive to other people’s feelings” is basically affective empathy.

      The real problem I observe with people who label themselves empaths is that sometimes they misread affect and start empathizing with an emotion that the other person does not actually feel.

      1. ThatGirl*

        There’s a difference between understanding how others may be feeling and literally feeling it. I can be very empathetic toward people. I am not an empath. Your last sentence basically illustrates this — misreading someone’s body language or affect and assuming they know how that person is feeling.

      2. Distracted Librarian*

        Your last sentence–yes. I’ve had people ascribe mistaken emotions to me, and it’s exhausting and frustrating to deal with. Like, no, I’m not mad/sad/whatever. They’re projecting, and it makes it really hard to communicate with them–especially when they argue with me about what I’m actually feeling.

    4. Whew*

      A lot of what people call being an empath is just…projecting a lot. I’m so empathic I know and feel your feelings, and they just happen to be the ones I have decided you have? Definitely being “an empath” and not poor boundaries, history of abuse leading to scrutinizing every hair of subtext, or massive anxiety.

      The only thing Tim is off base on is “tough love” – he’s spot on otherwise.

      1. I edit everything*

        Yes. I’ve been married 25+ years, and my husband, the person who knows me best in the world, still gets it wrong more than half the time, when he describes what he thinks I’m feeling.
        I don’t believe a random person can accurately *feel* the emotions of everyone in a room. They might be incredibly perceptive (a la “The Mentalist” or John Edward) and good at reading expressions, but there’s no psychic link. That would drive anyone mad, if they were in the same room with more than five people for any length of time.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          One thing I loved about The Mentalist is that the show really stressed that Jane is an ex con artist and practiced mentalist who uses cues, memory tricks and general knowledge of human behavior to do his “astounding” feats of prognostication. He’s not unusually sensitive to others at ALL–his Big Feelings are all about the tragedies he suffered and even his job as police consultant is geared towards his own ends in the early seasons.

          He makes the point, over and over, that people who insist that they are super woo-woo type sensitive or psychic or whatever are at best, self-deluded to some extent, and more probably trying to rip you off.

      2. Kit*

        I am well aware I am biased when it comes to self-described “empaths” – an ex who projected heavily and then tried to minimize any emotional responses I had that they didn’t like will do that – but yeah, all of this.

        I did note that LW is the one who described Tim’s approach as “tough love,” though, and I would not be surprised if another reader (or Alison herself) might describe it as “matter-of-fact” if not seen through the lens of needing to protect Vanessa from her own reactions. If you know Vanessa is going to cry at any negative feedback, it may well be kinder to rip the band-aid off than to dance around specifics of what improvements need to be seen in order to keep her on the team.

      3. Zap R.*

        Came here to say this. I grew up in an emotionally abusive environment. Learning to sense other peoples’ moods and feelings was a survival tactic. As an adult, it’s led to A LOT of projection.

        2. DoodleBug*

          And wanting to manage other people’s emotions, which gets overwhelming fast! (Been there too)

          1. arthur lester*

            Managing other people’s emotions isn’t just overwhelming for the manager, it’s also overwhelming if you’re being managed! I understand and empathize (hah) with the sort of trauma that might lead someone to do that, but also, if I’m expressing minor frustration over something, I don’t need to be treated like a child having a temper tantrum. I’m an adult; if I stub my toe or something, I am allowed to be pissed off for a second. I will be fine. Do not manage me.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              And it’s exhausting, also, in that you can’t have any strong emotion EVER without setting this person off and feeling panicky that they did something wrong, or missed a cue. You end up feeling horrible for hurting them when something happens to you!

      4. ThatGirl*

        Yep. That’s exactly what I’m saying! (I know you agree with me, just agreeing back.)

      5. BethRA*

        Agree. I feel like people who call themselves “empaths” are just the weepy, melodramatic cousins of the people who call themselves “blunt” “truth-tellers.”

      6. Jellyfish Catcher*

        The phrase “tough love” was used by the OP, not Tim, to describe her take on how he would handle this issue.
        Tim asked for information (ADA, etc), and said that he would discuss the issue directly with the employee, as she would need to stop that behavior.

        This had apparently never been done! So, OP interpreted it as harsh.
        Tim did not indicate that the employee had to go; he indicated that the employee had to be Managed to stop a specific behavior.

        I expect that the entire team will need some reset as well, since this group dysfunction has gone on for so long.
        Tim, good luck!

    5. NotaBean*

      I was young when I first heard of empaths, and I immediately resonated with it. I definitely called myself an empath at some point. I also had severe, untreated anxiety and depression, and trauma that resulted in me being overly sensitive to small changes in perceived behavior.
      It wasn’t until I heard more people talk about being empaths, and how we should thus bend over backwards to make them feel good, it became clear to me that it’s just…not a thing, and even if it was I hated that people took it to the point that they did. So I completely agree with you.
      Being sensitive is a wonderful trait, but if you make your sensitivity the problem of everyone else it’s obnoxious and entitled.

      (10 years later and I am 10000% better FYI)

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I’m on the autism spectrum and have gotten to be very good at reading facial and body language cues mostly to protect myself from doing or saying the kinds of mortifying things I did and said in social situations when I was younger. (I’m also fantastic with animals.) I am not an empath–I can make a good guess at what the other person is feeling and respond accordingly, but I don’t literally feel their feelings.

        My response when it looks like I hit a nerve is to back off and change the topic to something lighter. So far, this hasn’t failed me. Digging in and ramping up the emotions seems really intrusive–how, when, and to what degree their emotions are expressed is not my decision to make.

    6. bream*

      Thank you for saying this. Any “empath” I’ve known is almost always wrong in the emotions they attribute to others, and everyone ends up on edge trying to avoid whatever triggers will make the “empath” decide that others are sad, angry, whatever. It totally derails productive conversation.

    7. K8T*

      +1,000. Absolutely not a real thing and it kills me when people describe themselves as such.

    8. Meow*

      Hmmm… yes and no. I agree that I think there’s usually some underlying issue that makes someone an “empath”. But in the context of say, Autism or ADHD, difficultly with regulating emotions is it’s own unique problem that most experts argue is a trait of the condition, not caused by abuse or anxiety. That said, there are others that believe that the emotional disregulation that comes with ADHD and with some people with autism *is* actually caused by widespread chronic abuse, because so many of their parents and teachers verbally abuse and gaslight them, often without even realizing it. :(

      1. ThatGirl*

        I am sure I didn’t cover all of the reasons someone might call themselves an empath without having any actual psychic powers – but you get the drift. :)

    9. arthur lester*

      I have been frequently labeled as an empath by other and you are absolutely correct. I have a history of environments that lead me to need to be attuned to others’ emotional states to maintain safety, and incredible pattern recognition.

      It’s not supernatural, and it is frequently incredibly self-serving. Other “empaths” do not like when I tell them this.

    10. Fluffy Fish*

      Hard agree. My therapist and I joke that I have an overabundance of empathy – the thing is is it’s NOT about anyone else but me. It’s about my feelings on things and the work we do in regards to it is to help me manage my emotions to not act in appropriately in a given situation.

      Bottom line – Vanessa’s emotions and their manifestation are about her and her perceptions and she’s inflicting it on everyone else around her. Meanwhile OP is so focused on managing Vanessas feelings that she’s ignoring everyone else.

      If this was someone who was prone to bouts of rage no one would tolerate it nor suggest it had anything to do with “sensing” others emotions.

      I say all this because I think OP needs to try to come around to a different perspective on what’s going on. Whatever reason for the behavior doesn’t really matter – the behavior and disruption its causing does.

      I would also encourage OP to take a step back and reconsider Tim’s suggestion. I suspect it’s less tough-love and more simply not coddling Vanessa.

    11. Double A*

      My husband is an empath (I guess? I also dislike that term), but what that means is he is a parabolic dish for emotion. Whatever emotion is around him, he reflects it back more intensely. It’s absolutely a trauma response and it does not make him more sensitive to other people’s emotions; if anything, he’s LESS sensitive because he’s too amped up to be compassionate towards anyone else.

      I’m not empathetic, and it makes it possible for me to do compassionate work with people in difficult situations, because I don’t spend a ton of energy all up in my own feelings because of someone else’s feelings. I can be kind of detached and calm in the face of strong emotion.

    12. Observer*

      I’m gonna say something potentially controversial: I don’t think being an empath is a real thing. I think most people who call themselves empaths actually have anxiety, serious boundary issues, or a history of abuse that makes them very sensitive to other people’s feelings.

      The thing is that none of this is really relevant.

      That’s the thing that the OP needs to realize. The discussion is interesting and I also tend to agree with this statement. But it doesn’t really MATTER. Because it does change the problem.

      The basic problem is that for some reason Vanessa’s emotional regulation is bad enough that people who don’t know her get seriously distracted by her behavior and people who DO know her take quick and strong action to keep her from melting down. That’s just not viable at work.

    13. morethantired*

      This take is a little absurd. Most people are capable of empathy, and it makes sense some people may be better at it than others just as it makes sense that some people are really bad at feeling empathy. It’s not like ESP or anything. The term is just short-hand for people who are highly empathetic to the point where they can sometimes feel others feelings as if it were their own. Some folks take it too far in assuming what it can mean, but it is real. There are research studies to support this.

      That being said, the behavior described by LW isn’t empathy. That would be if Vanessa couldn’t help but cry if others were crying or upset. It sounds like Vanessa is just incredibly emotionally fragile. She cannot handle any strong personal emotions without crying.

      1. ThatGirl*

        That was my point though, it’s not ESP, these people aren’t psychic, they’re having trauma responses or anxiety or similar things. They’re not actually feeling other people’s feelings, they are projecting and internalizing.

        1. morethantired*

          But that’s not it. Research studies that support the concept are like those where people received electric shocks and then later told someone close to them is getting the same shocks. Their brains then reacted in the same exact way as it did when they were receiving the shocks themselves. They experienced the pain. BUT as this study indicates, contrary to how most people talk about it, this kind of extreme empathy more predictably occurs when you have an actual connection with the other person and have experienced what they are experiencing yourself.

          1. design ghost*

            No one is saying that empathy as a concept doesn’t exist lol. But people who call themselves “empaths” do often mean that they think they have ESP. There’s people posting on this page saying that they can feel the emotions of everyone in a room when they enter it.

            And yes, there are studies showing that some people have a stronger empathic response than other people, under certain circumstances. That’s part of the range of empathy that everyone experiences, not just people who call themselves “empaths”.

            1. morethantired*

              Just because people misuse the term doesn’t mean there isn’t such a thing as an empath. It’s more like how OCD is a real condition and yet so many people say “I have OCD” because they like things super tidy or organized. Experts in psychology and neurodiversity talk about empaths. My point is that it’s real, it’s just very misunderstood by most people. Like most things having to do with neurology and mental health.

          2. I should really pick a name*

            Assuming that’s what the study described:
            That’s actually an example of what ThatGirl is describing. Someone is reacting to what they perceive as opposed to actually feeling what other people are feeling (which is what some “empaths” claim they can do).

            They have been told that someone is getting shocked. That doesn’t mean someone else is actually getting shocked.
            Also, they are having the reaction when they were told about it. They didn’t feel it when the other person was shocked (if they were).

            Further to that, they are experiencing THEIR impression of a shock, not the other person’s.

            1. morethantired*

              The other person was getting shocked and it was a simultaneous reaction, so it was as if both people were being shocked at the same time, but only one was. And this didn’t occur in all the test subjects, just some of them. You can google the study.

          3. Spencer Hastings*

            There have also been studies where they scanned people’s brains while asking them “what do you think about ethical issue X?” and “what does God think about ethical issue X?” The same parts of the brain lit up. This is not evidence for the existence of God, but rather that people project themselves into the situation. I think this is a similar thing.

            1. morethantired*

              First, these are studies on determining what qualifies a highly empathetic person (empath) and the capacity of humans to feel each other’s feelings. The study you’re talking about probably wasn’t trying to prove the existence of God. Asking a study to provide evidence for something it never sought to find is not how scientific research works.
              Second, it stands to reason that anyone who believes in God would have, in some part, rooted their own ethics in their religion. Therefore, it makes sense that they would be thinking of ethics in the same part of the brain as religion. And most religion does heavily involve ethics.
              Third, imagining what someone you have never met thinks is completely different than a response to your loved one getting a painful shock, you had previously experienced these same painful shocks, and then you’re hearing or seeing them receive these shocks either in the same room or remotely. The former is entirely theoretical. The latter is a tangible experience.

              1. Happy*

                I think you’ve missed the point. There’s a difference between being an especially empathetic person (which I haven’t seen anyone argue doesn’t exist) and being a self-described “empath.”

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I believe you can practice the skill of ‘ empathy’ a bit too much. I have practiced my skills so I’m a little sensitive but it’s not magic.

      3. Glen*

        that’s… literally what they’re saying? Read some other comments here – plenty of people (bizarrely) think “being an empath” – the ability to literally “feel” other people’s emotions, an actual paranormal ability – is a real thing. People who call themself an “empath” don’t just mean they are particularly empathetic, they mean that they have an ability akin to telepathy that allows them to supernaturally perceive other people’s emotions.

      4. They Called Me Skeletor*

        Thanks for calling my take absurd. You’ve reminded me why I very rarely comment on this site. ” I’ve never experienced it and I don’t believe in it so you and your take on something is absurd.” That’s very….disrespectful…..discourse. Thanks for reminding me why I only read this site and no longer actively participate.

        Back to major lurker mode.

    14. design ghost*

      It’s wild that people treat empaths as a real thing when it’s pretty much the same as telepathy. You can’t read anyone’s emotions by walking into a room any more than you can read their minds. It’s not a real thing.

      You can be influenced by other people’s emotions, but that describes literally everyone. Some people are more easily influenced than others, sure, but it’s still a very normal human experience and not magic.

      And yes, some people are better than others at reading other people’s emotions, but it’s only emotions they are giving off signals of, and even then it would mostly be accurate for people you know. Anything else a so-called empath claims they can do is about as credible as “body language experts.” Even people who are very attuned to emotions due to a history of abuse, for example, are most accurate about reading the emotions of their abuser, not everyone else.

      1. STAT!*

        “You can’t read anyone’s emotions by walking into a room any more than you can read their minds. It’s not a real thing.” So much agree with this statement! In fact, if neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett is correct, then there is no difference between thoughts & feelings. (My understanding of her argument, anyway.)

    15. Rex Libris*

      This. I’m willing to believe someone is an empath the second they can explain how they’re reading the neurochemical changes the limbic system in my brain is producing in response to stimuli, because that’s basically all emotions are.

      I think it’s entirely possible that some people are so sensitive to minute physical changes in body language, facial expression, etc. that they’re reading those, possibly without even realizing it, but that’s not being an empath, that’s anxiety and/or hypervigilance.

    16. Feotakahari*

      My problem with the “empath” label is the way it gets positioned as “good neurodivergence” versus cluster B disorders as “bad neurodivergence.” There’s an alarming amount of online content that basically positions empaths as messiahs come to save us from the inherent villainy and corruption of people with cluster B disorders.

    17. Cheezmouser*

      Empaths are real. I’m married to one and I’ve observed him for 20+ years. The problem is that people confuse “empathy” for “sensitivity” or just being emotional. Most people have some degree of empathy, and that’s normal; empaths perceive the emotions of others to an unusual degree. It’s like the difference between a smart person vs a genius. Many people are very smart; there are few geniuses. It’s hard to describe the difference between the two, but it’s tied to degree and innate ability. Likewise, a lot of people are very empathetic, but that doesn’t make them an empath. There is a lot of misunderstanding and mislabeling out there.

      Some examples of empath stuff from my husband:
      *He can sense the emotions or “energy” of those around him. This is not the same as reading social cues. For example, he can often sense my anxiety acting up before I do, like those medical alert dogs except for emotions. He does this even if I’m doing something normal, like reading on the couch or making a sandwich.

      *He sometimes knows things about people that he should have no business knowing, things that they would not admit even to themselves, like “Bob is so hard on Bill because he sees a younger version of himself in Bill, but he resents that Bill is able to achieve so much in his career without sacrificing his family, while Bob felt he had to sacrifice his family for his career. Bob tells himself it was worth it and he made the right choice, but secretly Bob is deeply ashamed and regretful that his children and wife are estranged, so he clings to his career for his sense of identity and makes himself feel better by being condescending to Bill.” (This was Husband’s former boss, and there was no way in hell Bob would ever admit the above to Husband, but Husband could read it anyway. It’s unclear if Bob had ever even admitted the above to himself.)

      *He is incredibly emotional stable and has strong emotional management skills, because otherwise he wouldn’t be able to function. He learned coping strategies as a teen, so that he could separate his own emotions from the emotions of people around him. Sometimes my anxiety gets too much for him and he needs to open up a window to “let all the nervous energy out of the house.”

      *He can oftentimes (but not always) tell when someone is lying.

      *It is incredibly hard to surprise him with a gift. I once told him “I got you a little something” and he guessed the exact gift based on those words alone.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Being really observant and making logical jumps in assumptions about people he knows is impressive, to be sure, but it doesn’t make him psychic. You mention alert dogs and I believe it’s roughly the same thing – picking up on subtle cues from someone you know well. And – even if he 100% is an empath (still not sure that’s exactly what you describe) -he’d still be the one extremely rare case among hundreds of anxious boundaryless people.

        1. Cheezmouser*

          Of course he’s not psychic, although sometimes he makes me wonder, lol. He’s done the “correctly guess the present” thing to me on multiple occasions, but that’s because he knows me so well. He wouldn’t be able to do that to strangers. My point is that when an empath combines the insights that he gleans from empathy with his understanding of a particular person, he can have really deep levels of understanding of that person, to the point that he can often predict their actions.

          Yes, it’s definitely based on subtle cues, although it’s weird cuz sometimes he doesn’t even have to look at or talk to them, he can just “feel” the emotions coming off someone. It’s kinda like how your skin crawls when you’re stuck in a crowded hospital waiting room with fifty other sick, injured, worried, desperate people. You can practically feel the misery in the air. Normal people can feel that because the emotions are so concentrated; he can feel that coming from just one person instead of fifty. And it’s not just strong negative emotions, it’s any type of emotion. There’s a lot of interpretation that comes with it, like “this person seems anxious, it’s probably because they’re in a new situation where they want to make a good impression but they lack confidence so they’re trying to cover it up by faking it until they make it.”

          Yeah, agree that most “empaths” are not actual empaths. I think some of it is genetic. His mother sometimes does empath stuff. She talks about people’s “auras”; he talks about “energy.” None of his 4 other siblings display unusual empathy or speak in those terms.

          1. sascha*

            “this person seems anxious, it’s probably because they’re in a new situation where they want to make a good impression but they lack confidence so they’re trying to cover it up by faking it until they make it.”

            to be honest, an analysis like that doesn’t sound too far off from a horoscope

            1. Cheezmouser*

              In what way? In that it seems generic and could apply to anyone? Obviously I was giving a general example just to illustrate how perceiving someone’s emotions can lead to better understanding of their fears, motivations, actions, etc. If you want a specific example, then you’d have to point out a specific person and my husband would have to read them to see what he could glean. Sometimes it’s really specific, like “she is trying way too hard to catch that guy’s attention because she’s afraid of being alone” or sometimes there’s just “she seems like the really chill type” or sometimes there’s nothing specific. He’s not a psychic, and he can only somewhat control his empathy. Sometimes he picks up stuff he doesn’t want to, sometimes he picks up nothing even when he’s trying.

              1. sascha*

                well, yes. “she is trying way too hard to catch that guy’s attention because she’s afraid of being alone” and “she seems like the really chill type” are extremely generic and not really something you’re able to verify in any concrete way. seeing a women acting up to get someone’s attention and saying she’s probably afraid of being alone is not only a very mundane conclusion but something that can be applied to countless (if not virtually all) people

        2. Gemstones*

          I’m reminded of Miranda’s response on Sex and the City to Richard telling Sam he got scared and thus cheated: “So what? They get a medal for correctly identifying a feeling? We do that all day long. I feel pissed off. Ta-dahhhh!”

      2. Lucky Meas*

        How does he know that Bob thinks that if Bob has never said that to anyone? Could also be that Bill said something to Bob in a private conversation your husband didn’t know. And guessing presents from your spouse doesn’t take a superhuman level of sensitivity…

        1. Cheezmouser*

          Husband is “Bill” in the story above. He knows because he can read Bob’s emotions. He can sense Bob’s pain and regret when Bob is talking big about his son coming to visit (son lives on opposite coast, hasn’t visited in 2 years). Husband can hear it when Bob starts ranting about how he got where he got because he was willing to make sacrifices. The empathy allows Husband to see the disparity between what Bob says vs how Bob really feels. Bob doesn’t realize that Husband reads him that well, and obviously doesn’t know about the empathy thing, but Husband is known throughout the company as the Bob whisperer cuz half his job is wrangling Bob. (Think of Bob as moody genius who generates a lot of revenue.) The empathy allows Husband to read Bob and know when Bob wants to be left alone, when Bob wants to vent, when Bob wants to show off in front of someone, etc. Husband is a very good wrangler because of his empathy.

          1. design ghost*

            So your example of how your husband is an empath is that he identified his boss’s emotions.

            And your proof that he’s correct about those emotions is that he’s an empath so obviously he’s right.

            Makes perfect sense, no notes.

          2. Gemstones*

            It sounds a little like wishful thinking to be honest. “My boss is so hard on me because he wishes he had my life!” It feels less “empath” and more like something you tell yourself because you’re frustrated with your boss.

          3. Lucky Meas*

            Sorry, I still don’t think that being able to discern pretty obvious emotions (Bob explicitly ranting about his sacrifices…) in someone you work very closely with means you have superhuman abilities. Any good secretary, business partner, spouse, friend, dog should be able to do that…

      3. The Charioteer*

        Guessing what present you got is being an empath? That makes it sound like he’s reading your mind.

        1. Cheezmouser*

          Sorta. He’s not psychic, and maybe that wasn’t the best example because it’s specific to me. He wouldn’t be able to do that with a stranger. If a stranger asked him to guess a present, he wouldn’t be able to guess the exact thing, it would be more like “it’s something tricky because you don’t believe in empaths and you want to trick me just to prove your point; the box may even be empty” or “it’s something personal to you, like a photo or a piece of jewelry, because you feel really close to that person, they mean a lot to you.”

          Okay, now that I’m looking at it, it does make him sound like a psychic, LOL. But he’s not, he’s just really good at reading people and getting a feel for them, which sometimes allows him to predict their actions. I don’t know exactly how it works either, but I’ve learned that he’s usually pretty close.

          1. The Charioteer*

            So he can guess what present his spouse got him but not one a stranger got him? Shocking…

            None of that makes him sound psychic at all. These seem like normal conclusions that you’re presenting as some sort of paranormal ability.

    18. Cheryl Blossom*

      THANK YOU.

      I’d also add that most people who self-describe as empaths are drama magnets who want to make everyone else’s emotions (real or projected) about themselves.

    19. HalJordan*

      There was an interesting paper I read a few years ago about potential connections between emotions and scent.

      The premise was essentially that (1) human release various hormones during strong emotion (which, yeah); (2) hormones contain olfactory/scent markers; (3) humans have an ability to (subconsciously) pick up on lingering or strong scent markers of emotion and may be able to assign them to an associated emotion. So, like, if you walk into a room that just had an exam in it, you might be able to pick up *~*vibes*~* of stress and think you’re an ~*~empath~*~, when you’re really faintly smelling the traces of people’s cortisol and producing your own in response.

      But, a couple corollaries:
      1. this ability, such as it is, has probably decreased through evolution (like any ability we have to navigate based on magnetic fields). we’re obviously not as good at sensing scents as other animals. because we figured out words
      2. because we’re not great at it, it requires strong emotion, preferably from lots of people simultaneously, which usually has other markers (e.g., visible tears, or, you know, you’re in a room on campus during exam season). So the less-strong the feeling or the fewer the people feeling it, the less likely there’ll be enough to pick up or identify
      3. it doesn’t work at all remotely.

      I don’t think that’s what’s happening with Vanessa or a lot of other performative empaths–that seems to be more about feeling Their Feelings, rather than others’–but it’s an interesting perspective on Vibes!

  14. L-squared*

    I’m so happy with Alison’s answer, because while reading it, all I thought was “Tim is 100% right, and you (OP) has been there so long you are ignoring a serious issue”

    Even in how he is discussing it, he is right. You say you know Vanessa is an adult, but don’t seem to be willing to talk to her like one.

    The fact that 8 people have now just “worked around it”, but you are expecting 8 others and a new manager to do the same does call into question how impartial you are being here. This sounds like you have a more personal stake in Vanessa, and you don’t want this outsider coming an and commenting on real issues that are there with “your” team.

    1. Cat's Paw for Cats*

      Me too. I was worried as I read this that I would be the odd man out. Frankly, I doubt that Vanessa’s coworkers are as okay with this as OP seems to think.

    2. Observer*

      . You say you know Vanessa is an adult, but don’t seem to be willing to talk to her like one.

      Exactly!

      Agreed with the rest, as well.

  15. They Called Me Skeletor.....*

    I just want to say that there’s a big difference between having empathy for someone and being an empath. being an empath involves feeling the feelings that everyone in any room is feeling and it comes at you like a freight train and unless you’ve got some really good adaptive armor going it’s blindsided. it’s well beyond the normal empathy that one would feel for a fellow human being.

      1. They Called Me Skeletor.....*

        no all I’m simply saying is that she may be overwhelmed with their emotions. it is overwhelming unless you have good protective armor put up.

        1. Gemstones*

          But why is the only feeling she picks up on sadness? Her coworkers are presumably happy sometimes…wouldn’t she sometimes pick up on joy and thus NOT cry during a meeting? Also, presumably her coworkers all have different feelings, since they are separate people. What happens if one is feeling joyful, one is feeling a little sad, and one is feeling bored? I guess I’m just confused why it all seems to translate to tears.

    2. TeacherofMiddle*

      Being an empath or not isn’t the issue because it is not a protected class. Even understanding what it is like to be an empath does not change what needs to happen in this situation. Vanessa needs to be able to handle herself.

      1. Observer*

        It wouldn’t matter if it was a protected class. Because the protection is not against needing to behave appropriately at work. And right now Vanessa is NOT behaving appropriately.

        Now, protection would require that the employer make reasonable accommodation, but the OP and their company don’t need a “protected class” to make *reasonable* accommodations, if Vanessa figured out what she needs to be enabled to keep her behavior in check.

    3. bream*

      I said this on another comment above, but in any interaction I’ve had with people who call themselves empaths, they are often wrong about the emotions they attribute to others. That makes it seem to me like it’s more about them than the emotions others are having. It is so exhausting trying to convince someone that you’re not sad, angry, or whatever and it totally derails productive communication.

    4. Conundrum*

      If the empath is so empathetic, shouldn’t they feel that their empathy may be causing others to feel uncomfortable?

      1. Observer*

        Not necessarily – if someone is really feeling everyone’s emotions, then that could be too overwhelming. Which is why they would need good “armor”.

    5. sookie st james*

      I feel for you (if I’m interpreting correctly that you identify with this label) that you experience significant amounts of overwhelm and hyper-sensitivity.

      I struggle with the word ‘empath’ because it implies that whatever the empath thinks others are feeling is a fact, when it’s nothing more than a perception or an assumption which could be off base – no matter how intense the feelings attached to it are.

      I do believe it’s possible for people to be hyper-sensitive to others behaviours/expressions/body language. But I don’t think they should allow their actions to be dictated by the conclusions they draw. What they are experiencing is an onslaught of their own emotions – triggered by perceptions that may or may not be grounded in the truth. In reality, we can never *know* what other people are feeling unless they tell us.

      Regardless of where Vanessa’s feelings come from (a paranormal experience of others’ emotions, being highly perceptive, or because she’s misinterpreting her own emotions as having an external rather than internal source) choosing to use the language of ‘empathy’ – a positive characteristic – to describe what is happening fails to acknowledge the very real damage she’s causing to her team by refusing to figure out how to manage this in an appropriate way.

    6. Cheryl Blossom*

      Even if I agreed with you that being an empath is a real thing, my answer would be the same: if that is how you are going through life then you would probably benefit from therapy and better coping mechanisms.

  16. Queen George*

    “Empath” is not a diagnostic term, and it is sometimes used as a cover-up to avoid what Captain Awkward would call the “broken stair.” If everyone is having to change their routines and behavior to accommodate a single individual to this extreme, something needs to be addressed. I’m definitely one of the people who would find this troubling and distracting.

    1. Observer*

      I think that the whole discussion of whether Vanessa is an empath, whether empaths actually exist, whether they are right or wrong, or whether it’s a diagnostic term, to be a distraction.

      Vanessa’s behavior and the OP’s reaction do sound like a classic “missing stair” situation, as you say. And I think that this is what the OP needs to focus on.

      1. Poppy*

        Agreed – we’re not supposed to arm-chair diagnosefor a reason. Hundreds of comments on whether empathy exists and whether it’s OK or not to cry about a relative’s pet dying are *so* not to the point. Tim is doing what he can to address the problem and we could focus on that instead. Vanessa sounds exhausting and barely adult and could do with learning some coping strategies, for everyone’s sake, and Tim is right to draw attention to this problem. Chances are he’s been asked to address it and that’s why he’s doing so while he’s new.

        OP, try to listen to your new manager!

  17. Chairman of the Bored*

    The bird thing is bananas.

    Vanessa’s colleagues should have to scurry around creating distractions and disposing of carcasses in order to spare her from possibly seeing a dead bird.

    It sounds like her “quirkiness” is imposing a lot of additional work on the people around her, and Tim is right to be skeptical of this whole arrangement.

  18. The Person from the Resume*

    She is an empath and cries a lot.

    Being emphathic (extremely perceptive of the feelings and emotions of people around them) doesn’t actually correlate to crying a lot. It’s feeling all the emotions of people around them not just sadness.

    So you’re left with someone who cries a lot and while she is fine being ignored while crying, that’s really awkward for the people around her. She needs to stop crying when she’s feeling big sad upsetting emotions about small things that everyone else in the office deals with without crying.

  19. Marketing Unicorn Ninja*

    LW, I mean this as nicely as I possibly can, but Tim is right and you are wrong. I have worked with a Vanessa. She cried at everything — a cupcake fell on the floor, someone didn’t thank her profusely enough for doing her job, it was raining when the weather forecast had called for sun, a late frost killed the daffodils, etc. — and it was frankly beyond exhausting to try to manage her emotions and manage her feelings and manage meetings so that her feelings and emotions wouldn’t get hurt or overwhelming. It got to the point that no one was willing to work with her on anything — even though she was very good at her core job responsibilities — because she was just so mentally exhausting to deal with and no one was willing to trade the hours of tears for cooperative work with her.

    I don’t think ‘tough love,’ is the right approach, but I do think Tim is right that y’all have danced around this for so long that your sense of normal is warped.

    1. Nook Nook*

      This. All of this. I have a Vanessa on my team as well. Thankfully we aren’t in the office and all WFH now, but the tears still flow during Teams meetings. Last week it was because her internet cut out for 4 minutes at the most (during a slow period in the day), and just yesterday I had to calm her down because the font color on one of our programs changed from blue to a darker blue.

      Tough love may not be the way, but allowing this to go on and enabling this behavior definitely cannot continue. Tim is right for wanting something to be done, LW. Can’t wait for an update on this one. I’m sure there will be many tears shed.

    2. Salsa Verde*

      I said this above, but I am not convinced that tough love is what Tim is suggesting. That’s what the OP described it as, and I’m not sure exactly what OP means by that.

      1. bream*

        This exactly. If Tim just wants to be able to talk to Vanessa as an adult, that’s not tough love.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Yes! Tim isn’t her family member or friend, he’s her manager who wants to have functional adult relationship with his report, as is reasonable.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, I would like to hear from a disinterested third party on this. The OP seems far too invested in protecting Vanessa for me to believe that Tim’s love is all that tough.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I had a roommate that cried every single day, multiple times. It was how she dealt with anything she found unpleasant, even minor, everyday things. The 6 months I lived with her was the longest 5 years of my life.

    4. Grace Poole*

      I once asked a colleague to look at a document I was sent from a vendor that I work with that was directly related to her area of expertise. I later got a call from her manager asking what I said to her, and all I could say was, “I asked her to review a pdf if she had a minute.” Apparently, the document made her feel stupid because of how it was worded, and she burst into tears and had to be sent home. I heard through the grapevine that it wasn’t an isolated occurrence, and that department just keeps stepping over the broken step of her emotions.

  20. JelloStapler*

    I am a raging empath and manage to regulate my emotions at work (I have to as I work with students who sometimes are bringing a lot of emotion to me and I need to be the calm one). Do I get teary if very frustrated or touched by something, yes. but I have managed to only do it behind closed doors or with a select few one on one whom I trust and am close to.

    I do think there can a middle ground of respecting Vanessa while gently encouraging her to get some tools to manage this instead of a missing stair situation.

  21. Falling Diphthong*

    I want to push back a bit on the implied prioritizing of empathy as the most evolved state.

    One aspect of maturity is that you can dial down your empathy to deal with emergencies, and more generally with life’s slings and arrows. The trajectory is self -> empathy for others -> regulating that to carry out needed tasks as an individual and member of the community.

    Example: If someone is bleeding badly, you want an adult who will apply pressure to the wound while directing others to call 911 or get the first aid kit or otherwise be useful; you don’t want the person who just redirects to themselves with “I feel your pain!!!! It’s like it’s my pain!” Sometimes maturity means clamping down on our emotions, because we would not do anything useful if we really reveled in the shock or horror or grief or whatever.

    2. PoolLounger*

      Thank you. I would absolutely never call myself an empath (I don’t really believe it’s a real thing—as others said above, it usually seens to be more about anxiety and projecting, and aspects can be the result of having lived with dificult or abusive people) but others have called me that, and I’m definitely very sensitive. There are aspects that are positive, but many that arre negative. I wish I could be a vet tech, or a nicu nurse like my mom, or work in a variety of other helping professions—but I absolutely can’t. Even with lots of therapy I can’t control my emotions (and sometimes their outward displays, like crying) very well. When I look for help I’m not generally looking for an “empath,” I’m looking for someone who can keep a good head on their shoulders and actively help, whether they understand my feelings/pain or not.

      1. Cut short for time*

        I realize this may be an ironic response, but I sincerely feel you. I have to have a job where I can say “No one is going to die from you screwing up”, because I am too emotional of a person and I would lose it on the regular if my job mattered in that way.

    3. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      My husband and I are both good in a crisis and we joke that it’s our finely tuned ability to dissociate.

  22. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

    I find people like Vanessa very draining to be around, and I suspect people on the team do too.
    Being around that level of emotion all the time is exhausting.

    I understand some people are just criers but asking her to go somewhere private to let it out isn’t hindering her quirkiness. Vanessa can be professionally quirky, that’s a reasonable ask.

    1. goddessoftransitory*

      You can get used to being exhausted and having a huge portion of your energy stolen in this manner soooo easily, though. I work with a variant of Vanessa–he’s not a crier, he’s a desperate seeker of friendship from every sentient creature in a fifty mile radius. No inside voice (he’s like if a happy yak and an opera singer had a baby), fifteen minute calls where he does his “comedy routine” for the hapless caller who just wanted to order a pizza, repeating a joke fifteen times a shift; if he was a character on a TV sitcom people would dismiss him as “too broad,”

      We’ve been stuck with him for years and he doesn’t appear to be going anywhere. The days he’s not there you can FEEL the difference of energy in the room as people realize they don’t have to mentally shield themselves from him, and that shielding has become normal.

      1. MsM*

        I’m sorry for your suffering, but you paint a vivid and entertaining picture of the situation.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          He’s honestly not a bad guy at all, which is why I’m sure he’s still working there. He’s just –a LOT.

  23. PiperWhite*

    Please leave birds be. A lot of them that you think are dead are merely stunned. After a while, and the time varies, they recover and will fly off and be okay.

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        I believe this to be the only time I have spontaneously laughed at a M—- P—– reference! Amazing

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Completely irrelevant to the question at hand, but I was thinking the same thing! Just leave them be!

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        It takes some of them a bit, but most eventually fly shake it off and fly away.

      2. Phony Genius*

        If they just used the shovel to put the bird into an outdoor trash can, which usually has an open top, it may well have woken up and found its way out of the can. So the bird may actually be OK.

    4. EMP*

      This is only kind of true – many of them have head trauma and won’t survive much longer even if they fly away. And in the meantime, if they are stunned, moving them to a sheltered spot nearby (e.g. at the base of a potted plant, under a bush) where they won’t be stepped on or easy prey for a passing raptor/dog/large rodent is a kindness while they recover.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      It is kind of ironic that they rush to intervene in the bird situation but have done nothing for years about the employee!

  24. Eldritch Office Worker*

    “I think there is a real benefit to accepting the misfits, the quirky, the sensitive among us.”

    Your heart is in the right place OP, but accepting someone and asking an entire team to either bend over backwards, or suffer discomfort themselves, in order to accommodate them is something else entirely.

    I really like the guidance the ADA uses here, and I also like that Tim asked about ADA accommodations – he’s coming at this from the right headspace. A workplace should give any accommodations that an ADA eligible individual may need to do their job as long as it doesn’t place undue hardship on the employer. Tim is correct as identifying this as an undue hardship to himself, and her colleagues. As Alison says, there may be ways to work around this, but what you’re doing now, and the burden you’re putting on your staff to accommodate her, is not acceptable.

    I cried easily when I was younger, and I really needed medication. I’m not here to diagnose Vanessa, but it may be worth it for her to look into an EAP, if your employer offers one, or to talk to a doctor about ADA accommodations. A medical professional may be better positioned to work with her to come up with actionable solutions.

    Again, OP, it’s lovely that you care. I would just encourage you to take a step back and think about the health and efficacy of your team as a whole, instead of hyperfixating on this individual.

    1. Observer*

      I really like the guidance the ADA uses here, and I also like that Tim asked about ADA accommodations –

      Good point!

      This tells me that Tim is not just someone who thinks that everyone MUST fit into one little box.

  25. Cut short for time*

    I know this is not what most people experience, but as a “sensitive” person, who was a “sensitive” child, the crying response to stress is semi-involuntary. I have to work very hard whenever there is anything distressing in my environment – I have learned to cry silently, so that if I am on the phone and someone raises their voice, I can at least sound calm and controlled. I have gone to many a bathroom directly after stressful meetings to cry. I love working from home because I cry after any stressful meeting without it affecting anyone else, or can blame connectivity issues and turn off my camera if something really distressing happens (hasn’t yet, I usually can delay until after the meeting). I know that people will see Vanessa as immature – people often have seen me that way, even as I feel like I am bending over backwards to accommodate them. I know it is distressing to others when I cry, and I try so hard to make sure it doesn’t affect anyone else. I am constantly calming my overactive nervous system down so as to appear professional, and to maintain that all day in front of others is wearing, which makes the crying stress response easier to sneak through. It is a lot, I know I am a lot, but I am just working on a different operating system. I don’t know the best way to accommodate it, because I have tried so hard to be professional in front of others, but I guess I just want to say that it does suck and I don’t want to be like this either. I would love to be like everyone else and have normal levels of emotional response, and not have to work so hard all the time, but this is just how my body responds.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Gently, if you haven’t talked to a mental health professional about this, I would recommend it.

      I’m sorry though, that does sound very hard.

      1. Cut short for time*

        I have, thanks. I had one tell me I should not mask these emotions and let people see my real emotions, which obviously would not work in the workplace. They are not super helpful at changing how my body works.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Ugh, that’s definitely not helpful. Ideally you would do something like neurofeedback. I’m sorry.

        2. Engineer*

          Cognitive behavioral therapy may be of better benefit. It focuses on how to redirect both mental and physical reactions when something triggers a response. It takes some time to really learn a good adaptive technique and then using it as second nature, but when it helps, it really helps.

          1. Cut short for time*

            I have also tried this and it didn’t work. Don’t worry everyone, I have been to a lot of therapy! If you can think of it, I have probably tried it! My urge to cry is like an urge to pee – I can hold it in only for so long, but when I feel it, I should probably make a beeline to the bathroom!

          2. PoolLounger*

            Gently, I’m not the original commenter and don’t soeak for thrm, but I’m someone who also cries a lot. When you have any brain/emotion thing that’s not typical to other people’s experiences people often mske suggestions. It can be extremely frustrating to have people suggest things that I’ve either tried and didn’t work, or that I’ve not tried for specific reasons. We’ve all heard of therapy! It can also be frustrating for people to not just accept the differences when many of us try our best not to let these differences impact other people. I’ve had multiple therapists (including dbt and cbt practitioners) say that going to another room and expressing emotions through crying is perfectly healthy. Feeling strong emotions isn’t automatically negative.

        3. Observer*

          I hope you can find someone who is a bit more helpful.

          Also, if you haven’t please look at the possibility of medication and underlying health issues. Because “overactive nervous system” sounds exhausting. And it sounds like a genuine health issue.

    2. AnotherSarah*

      This sounds so hard. I think the question for OP is, is this an undue hardship on the rest of her team? (Tim seems to think it is.) It may well suck/be hard for Vanessa to have to develop some new strategies…but that’s not a reason to not have her do it.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I also have crying as an involuntary stress reaction. My poor husband, I’ll be sitting in bed and he’ll look over and I’m just quietly crying because I’m overwhelmed about something he has no control over. Meds have helped, and over time I’ve learned to control it in the workplace a little better, but it’s incredibly hard and I do empathize with both you and Vanessa. It’s not immaturity, and it can be both really difficult and a little embarrassing.

      But I also don’t think it’s fair to Vanessa’s coworkers to handle things the way OP has been. An office where I can close the door has been helpful for me, though I have the unfortunate addition of being very pale and being visibly blotchy for like an hour if I cry. A hybrid or remote environment like you describe can be helpful. What actually works in this instance will have to be figured out internally. But “just ignore me” is unfortunately not realistic.

      1. Cut short for time*

        I completely agree, I don’t have a great solution, I guess I wanted to give people a little empathy (ha!) for the hair-trigger criers, because so often I see people just think people do it for the drama, when I know in my case that’s not true. And while I can seem normal and professional for work, I realize it might be even harder for someone worse off than me.

        1. Observer*

          I think that one of the reasons that people are reacting so strongly is because of the way the situation is being framed. Like “Vanessa is an empath, so you can’t complain about her behavior” and “No one minds” even though there is good reason to believe that this is actually not a good reflection of reality, combine to create a situation that is not just difficult but intractable.

    4. Chirpy*

      This, I also have crying as a semi-involuntary stress response. I learned to sob silently in middle school. Generally, I can keep it to just teary eyed until I can step away and calm down, but if it’s an emotional argument or particularly someone trying to do “tough love”, I just can’t stop the tears from happening. It’s very frustrating that I can’t, because I do know exactly what others think about it and how “bad” it looks for me.

      It does sound like Vanessa could use some better coping mechanisms, but tough love isn’t the best way to suggest that.

      1. Cut short for time*

        It sucks, doesn’t it? I literally have spent my life trying to not be this way, and I just think others think because they can control tears/don’t cry easily, it must be the same for everyone. It is inconceivable to people that we are not willfully dramatic. It is so frustrating.

        1. Chirpy*

          Right? Some people just process things differently, or more deeply than others. In my case, there’s also some trauma response issues that make it harder to regulate (getting yelled at or made fun of for crying does NOT help someone “get over it”) but truly, I don’t do it for drama. I’d honestly really, really prefer to avoid that particular drama of crying in front of people, especially at work.

      2. Random Dice*

        Thanks for sharing this.

        Tim is factually right, and EQ-wrong.

        Yes they need to address it.

        No, tough love is not remotely the right approach.

    5. JustAnotherEmailMarketer*

      This sounds super stressful! I’m so sorry you have to deal with that.

      BUT I think you clearly are doing multiple things to manage this and mitigate its impact on your coworkers and the people you interact with! You talk about all the strategies you implement so that you’re NOT just sitting in a meeting crying while everyone tries to carry on as normal. I’m sure that adds an additional layer of stress when these situations and related emotions come up, but it sounds like you’re doing a great job!

      I feel like if Vanessa excused herself in these moments, Tim might be more understanding. Obviously if it’s still happening all the time it could be disruptive, but people step in and out of meetings and lunches (or away from their desks) fairly frequently and that seems like it would be less distracting than someone just sitting there crying.

      All that to say, I think Vanessa would benefit from some of your strategies and I hope you’re taking good care of yourself!

      1. Observer*

        BUT I think you clearly are doing multiple things to manage this and mitigate its impact on your coworkers and the people you interact with! You talk about all the strategies you implement so that you’re NOT just sitting in a meeting crying while everyone tries to carry on as normal. I’m sure that adds an additional layer of stress when these situations and related emotions come up, but it sounds like you’re doing a great job!

        Very much all of this.

        1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

          Yes this! Also sending good vibes your way, Cut Short – you paint a really vivid picture that I totally sympathise with, though my own bodily stress reactions are different.

    6. Anon for this*

      honestly, I used to cry daily, and ugly cry in inappropriate situations, including hiding in the bushes at an internship to be away from people.

      I did DBT therapy and it helped, but the number one helpful thing has been medication. the emotions and compulsions just aren’t as strong when I’m medicated so I can deal with them appropriately and not be overwhelmed by them.

    7. beanie gee*

      If it helps, I’ve been there and it’s gotten better! From past trauma, I used to cry at just about anything that made me feel emotions. It’s taken 30 years, and I still auto-cry if someone yells at me, but I’ve been able to control myself at work for more than 15 years. I don’t know that there was anything specific that helped, but maybe a combination of time and increased confidence in myself.

      1. laser99*

        No one should be yelling at anyone at work, anyway, unless you’re about to step in an open manhole or something.

    8. Modesty Poncho*

      I’m like this too. It’s related to my autism, it’s not something I can turn off, and therapy and meds have only helped, not eliminated the problem. I now cry when I reach a 7 or 8 level of emotion, where I used to cry at a 3 or 4.
      Every time this topic comes up it reminds me I’m unemployable outside a work from home setting and I hope people realize that’s what they’re implying when they say that crying (quietly, as unobtrusively as possible, requesting no accommodation or special treatment) is unprofessional and unacceptable.

      1. A person*

        I love this comment… I think it hit what I was feeling reading this thread.

        I don’t cry at work much but when I do, I can’t help it and I hate it.

        My experience in the past with people that cry a lot is that it is easy (to me anyway) to sort of get used to “that person always cries so I don’t need to do anything about it”. I’m much more disturbed by seeing someone cry that doesn’t cry much, but I rarely judge someone for crying at work regardless of frequency or reason. Sometimes it just happens.

        But wow… all the negativity around “quirky” people here in the comments just sort of stings… i already mostly feel like a fish among birds but reading all the comments about how much people hate “quirky” people has hit a nerve especially as someone who has been told they “don’t make a good first impression” (yes that exact phrase and yes by someone I trust)… I promise I’m not trying to be cute and disruptive. I hate that I don’t know how to interact with people. I desperately wish to be “normal”, but I don’t know how to do normal and attempts at normal usually come off even weirder than I already am.

        1. laser99*

          I am very sympathetic with this. My issue, and maybe this is shared by other commentators, is sometimes it can be performative.

        2. Metal Librarian*

          I feel exactly the same – for me, my strong emotions are a symptom of my ADHD and I hate that I cry so easily and can’t control it.

        3. Critical Rolls*

          I hope you reconsider how you’re reading the comments, as I don’t think anyone is trying to express hate, that’s a *very* strong word. This commentariat has its share of misanthropes who are impatient with nearly any human fallibility (the “why am I expected to converse with my coworkers in anything other than work-related declarative sentences?” crew). Unfortunately, many people here have encountered people who use these behaviors in a manipulative way, and it has made them wary. And we are mostly conditioned to perceive crying as a sign that Something is Wrong and Action Should Be Taken, or at least that it’s rude and unkind to ignore tears and carry on talking normally. The LW’s failure to acknowledge that this places a burden on the team, both in the moment and in the “how do we keep from setting Vanessa off” department, is frustrating to a lot of people.

          If you look at previous letters, and even the response to this letter, you will find that both Alison and the commentariat are generally supportive of *occasional* tears at work, because humans cry sometimes. But Vanessa’s constant tears are another matter.

    9. Phoenix*

      Cut Short, I totally sympathize and I don’t think you’re exhausting or that there’s anything wrong with you! The difference between you and Vanessa is that you actively take steps to mitigate the effect your crying has on other people (wait until after meetings, turn your camera off etc) while she seems to just expect people to look away or otherwise accommodate her.

      FWIW, I’m with you on being super annoyed by people who act like crying is a choice and is always manipulative. Personally, when I cry, it’s not a choice, I can’t help it! But I can step away, hide my face, delay the tears for a couple minutes, etc.

      1. Lifeafterburnout*

        I, too, am a crier. Had to resign a brilliant job because the last 18 months of extreme, sustained stress – both work and family, ended up with me in tears way too often. Very unprofessional. Therapy helps a bit. Medication helps a bit. Rest helps a bit. Menopause doesn’t help at all. Trying to get rid of or working through the stress areas helps, but when you are waiting for 4 elderly parents to pass on, sigh. So yes, too much stress and no end in tge immediate future means lots of tears.

        Reading Cut Short’s posts is so helpful. It is so hard to stop/break the circular, spiral of emotions, especially when the physical is so overwhelming. Hearing your strategies are working is so inspirational for me.

        1. Lifeafterburnout*

          Just to clarify, I’m not looking for sympathy. I’m looking for any strategies, hints and tips to control emotions and not display them at work in an over-the-top manner.

          It is nearly impossible to control emotions when inflicted with so many stressors – emotional, psychological, physical, etc. Hence why I’m taking time for me first to address those stress points before looking for more appropriate work.

    10. Aggretsuko*

      This is what I’ve been thinking: you literally can’t stop someone from crying. What the heck do you tell Vanessa, that she can’t cry? Should she run to the bathroom every time it happens?

      1. Snell*

        She doesn’t have to go to the bathroom specifically, but I think it could benefit everyone if Vanessa excused herself for a short while to regain composure as needed. I mean, the person you responded to /does/ go to the bathroom for a measure of privacy while they cry.

        I don’t recall anyone here advocating telling Vanessa that she can’t cry, and if they did it would be the double-suck of unkind and genuinely useless as advice. “Crying is banned” and “cry anytime, anywhere” are two extremes with a wide stretch between them of solutions that could benefit everyone in that workplace—Vanessa, her old team, LW, Tim, the new team members. AAM brought up a few possibilities (“leaving the room if she needs to cry, a private work space if that’s feasible, a leave of absence if it’s needed, an EAP if you have one”), but I think the reason that a lot her advice and that in the subsequent commentary focuses on trying to convince the LW to seek out other solutions at all because the LW is so firmly convinced that status quo is the kindest thing to do for Vanessa (definitely arguable) and seems to have a blind spot about what might be kind for the rest of the department, or even what makes a functional workplace.

  26. Clisby*

    I feel tired just thinking of working with someone like Vanessa.

    I don’t know about Tim’s “tough love” approach – not sure what that would entail – but he is 100% right that she needs to knock it off.

    1. Antilles*

      Same! I can’t imagine being one of the new team members in this merged situation. The first time I see Vanessa start crying in a meeting or at her desk or in a team lunch (???) over totally normal every-day occurrences, I’m going to (a) wonder what happened and (b) be absolutely walking on eggshells going forwards.

      If she’s crying over the vanilla discussion of the merger, how’s she reacting when I have to ask for a status update on something? Am I going to have to worry about her busting out in tears in front of our client if we get on a Teams call? How do I do the normal back-and-forth of “why’d you do X?” What if I’m reviewing her calculations and find an error, how do I address that without it turning into a thing?

      Maybe the rest of the existing team has gotten used to just sort of ignoring it, but there’s no way the newly merged people or newly hired outsiders are going to be comfortable with this.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        > crying over the vanilla discussion of the merger

        This may be me projecting my own experience, but I thought this could be due to anxiety over what the future will be like, job security, what does it mean that we have this new team, will they need everybody or will some of us be let go?, will things change in the way we do them (I bet she isn’t very good with change either), will these new people break up our little circle, why couldn’t things just stay the way they were, why did we have to merge with this other company… etc.

        1. Observer*

          I was thinking about that. But in that case, can you imagine what it’s like to be sitting in that room worrying about all of this stuff and on top of that, is this person who is crying so much that she’s distracting the new person who has not yet learned how to pretend that it’s not happening. Shudder.

          TLDR; If you are correct a bunch of stressed out people had to sit and deal with highly emotional behavior, without getting overly emotional themselves, while trying to manage a bunch of concerning reactions of their own.

  27. Cafe au Lait*

    I’m a sensitive soul. I cry happy tears at at happy pet videos. I cry when I see sad videos. I cry tears of gratitude when something incredibly nice happens to me or someone else. I squeeze out a few tears, sniffles a few times, cough and then get back to work. Oh, and never watch sad pet videos at work.

    Here’s what I also do: excuse myself quickly. “Whoops, these are happy tears! Katherine sent me a really nice note thanking me for the help on the Llama stitching project. I’mma gonna duck out for a moment.” It’s not crying for an entire meeting.

  28. Sindy*

    This is very concerning behavior. If it was only an occasional thing then it’s understandable to tolerate it, some people just cry in response to stress but otherwise function well in their day to day. But it sounds like Vanessa’s crying is out of control and its alarming behavior.

  30. Choggy*

    I can empathize with Vanessa, but also with Tim. It’s one thing when one person is being handled with kid gloves by the team they’ve been a part of for years, it’s another to keep expecting new people to jump on board. I am sure others on the existing team feel the same but since their manager is allowing it, they have to be fine with it too. Alison has provided really good advice here, I hope the OP heeds it, for the good of the current and new teams, and Vanessa.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      Accommodating Vanessa this way wouldn’t surprise me if she was going through a hard time after a recent death in the family, or was a few months from taking retirement and struggling with her mental health in the interim. Short term accommodations for life slinging especially hard at a coworker this month.

      Ten years, and the slings and arrows are lunch with your coworkers? That’s not a normal length of accommodation, or degree of needing accommodation.

      1. Anonymous for this*

        Right. I was Vanessa some years ago when my child was diagnosed with cancer. Even so, my excellent manager sat me down and said, everyone’s heart is breaking for you. Everyone understands. But everyone is also very distressed about your crying at work and it’s affecting the department’s ability to get things done. You really need to expedite going on leave. We can cut your hours in the meantime and give you work to do at home as much as possible, but…this can’t continue.

        And she was completely right.

    2. Observer*

      This is the definition of the “missing stair” phenomenon.

      And you are so right that there may very well be people on the existing team who are not so ok with it but feel like they need to be.

  31. Goncha*

    Vanessa is not an “empath” – she is not showing any concern here for how her behaviour and the demands she is making of others affects their feelings! She is someone who prioritises her own emotional reaction at the expense of everyone else. She is self-centred, overly emotional and unprofessional.

    That is not what being an “empath” means.

    1. Zap R.*

      Exactly. If I tear up at an inopportune moment, I go find a quiet place to get myself together. Weeping in a meeting is disruptive and an “empath” should get that.

    3. Distracted Librarian*

      Exactly, and thanks for saying this. Forcing people to deal with outsized emotional responses to everyday happenings is the opposite of empathetic. Here’s the hard truth: we all have emotions. At any given moment in any given workplace, someone is expending a lot of energy to manage their own emotions–and now they’re also supposed to deal with a constantly crying (or yelling–anger is also an emotion) co-worker? No, no, no.

    4. allathian*

      “She is self-centred, overly emotional and unprofessional.” QFT

      I’m definitely on Team Tim here. I’d also bet money that if Vanessa gets managed out/fired, a number of her teammates will say that they’re glad she’s gone.

    5. rusty*

      YES. Some of us feel big feelings, some of us cry much more easily than others, and I think it’s very unfair to judge anyone who ever cries at work – sometimes it can’t be helped. But this is ‘I’m an empath and so you have to deal with my feelings about your feelings!’ No.

  32. Peanut Hamper*

    She’s an empath but she only feels things that make her cry? Does it really work like that?

    (I’m not being critical, I’ve just never heard of….this. I’m not even sure how to describe it.)

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      No. It’s not. She cries in response to stress – that’s a thing! This isn’t an empathetic response.

  33. I edit everything*

    I’ll admit, I don’t understand the “empath” thing. Being highly perceptive of other people’s emotions shouldn’t automatically lead to crying–I mean, surely every team meeting or lunch doesn’t involve such intense trauma, that she’s crying because someone else is upset. What the what?
    I’m a crier, more than I want to be, and I would never expect my coworkers to deal with my emotions this way.

    1. Heidi*

      I honestly am not seeing how the bird thing matches up with the empath thing at all. She can’t be feeling the feelings of the bird because the bird is dead. Wouldn’t she be feeling the anxiety of her coworkers who are scrambling to hide the dead bird?

  34. Zap R.*

    “Empath” is not a medical diagnosis. I’m a crier myself – when something bad happens, I usually need to quickly “cry it out” before I can deal with it – so I’m sympathetic to Vanessa. However, Vanessa is at work and empath or no, she needs to find a less disruptive way to deal with this.

  35. Sandi*

    How is Vanessa as an ’empath’ any different than the average person who has emotions and empathy? Is she using the term as an excuse for her inability to contain emotions normally. Most people are able to sense the bad feelings of others yet we don’t experience sadness randomly and without reason. If she is constantly sad and emotional then she probably needs professional help to keep it out of the workplace. I work and socialize with people who have mental health issues including anxiety and depression, and I work to support them on their bad days, yet Vanessa’s behavior would cause me a lot of stress and distress. If she has been doing this for 10 years then she has no desire to fix the problem. If she won’t get help then I would be tempted to ask her to step out of meetings and if she can’t attend any meetings without crying and if she misses a lot of meetings then maybe address it as a work issue?

    I think Vanessa is likely emotionally dragging down everyone on her current team and they are supporting her because they are worried she will get a lot worse if they don’t. Who wants to work with a ticking emotional bomb? It isn’t fair to them that they have to tiptoe around her, and I think OP has lost sight of this. If her eyes get teary and moist then I don’t think that would be a problem, but if people are leaping to intercept her and running outside to hide a dead bird then it sounds like she is having a very visible emotional reaction.

    I think it is fair to cry during very emotional meetings, for example I once cried when an awful manager gave me unreasonable critical feedback. My emotions were based in frustration at my situation and I resolved it by acknowledging the tears and asking to continue and then promptly finding a job somewhere else. If the team has remained together for that long then I wonder if either Vanessa has a valuable skill-set that can’t easily be found or this is the best option they have. Either way her behavior is a problem to others.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      She might have poor emotional regulation, she might cry as a stress reaction, she might have a medical or psychological condition, it’s hard to say. But in the traditional understanding of the word empath – which to be clear, is not a clinical term – no, this is not well aligned with that.

  36. Falling Diphthong*

    OP, what if one of the new employees is a super empath? And every time Vanessa cries, the new employee cries even harder, and for longer?

    The above thought experiment is to illustrate an important thing about the missing stair, that there can be only one. This isn’t about accommodating a range of minor quirks–this is about one person seizing the power as the one you can’t reason with, that everyone else must bend to accommodate, and that won’t work once two people are trying to maintain that roll in the group. (And a typical response would be to close ranks to protect the original member, while deriding the new person for being ridiculous.)

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      As HR, whenever I have someone like OP in management who really wants to bend over backwards to care for a particular employee, my first question is “what will you do if there’s a competing accommodation?”

      Especially for this situation where there is no formal accommodation in place, that can be as minor as “this makes someone uncomfortable, and I can not look them in the face and tell them sitting next to someone crying for an entire meeting is a requirement of their job”. Because it’s not, and no ADA request would rise to the level of making them deal with that.

      People have asymmetrical needs, and sometimes those are in opposition to each other, but when you have one person taking this level of emotional labor from the rest of the team, you do not have a functional team.

  37. Anele*

    I just want to add that accommodating Vanessa is also unkind to Vanessa. How will she be able to handle future jobs if she expects that everyone will accommodate her?

    Vanessa needs to learn and practice some coping strategies, and the letter writer is preventing her from doing so.

    1. Emily*

      This is such a great point, thank you! What OP and the co-workers are doing may seem kind in the moment, but is doing nothing to help Vanessa in the long run.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Tim hit the nail on the head when he said OP wasn’t willing to talk to Vanessa as an adult. OP took exception to that, but didn’t outright disagree. OP just said that Vanessa was an adult, not that they were willing to talk to them like one.

      Tough love may not be the best answer, but I’m not even convinced what Tim is proposing is tough love. It’s setting expectations. As an adult, Vanessa should be able to engage in that dialogue. OP is absolutely infantilizing Vanessa in this situation.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      YES. I’m reminded of the “we have to line up male/female at the bus stop and nobody can wear a ring on one hand if they don’t wear one on the other hand too because Jane can’t deal with asymmetry” letter.

    4. Storm in a teacup*

      Exactly! LW you may want to read up on Radical Candour. This feels very much like ruinous empathy and it’s not helping Vanessa in the long run

    5. goddessoftransitory*

      I mentioned a coworker above who’s a Vanessa variant, and I think one reason he’s still there is people are genuinely concerned he could never get another job.

  38. Ginger Cat Lady*

    “I’m an empath” doesn’t mean everyone around you has to manage your emotions for you and protect you from seeing things any more than “I’m a hugger” means all your coworkers have to let you touch their bodies whether they like it or not.
    And yes, Tim is 100% right about long standing teams and dysfunction like this. There’s a reason the “missing stair” analogy resonates so much. It’s true.
    You and your team have been tiptoeing around Vanessa for so long you can’t even see how wacky it is.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      This reminds me a lot of the “I’m an artist” excuse for being flaky–actual artists who make a living at it are usually not flaky, much less wearing their flaky as a badge of pride that proves they must have artistic talent.

      1. CommanderBanana*

        Hah, my favorite was my now-ex-boyfriend’s friend telling us that he ‘didn’t have to be nice to people because he was a writer.’*

        *I know that not having stuff published doesn’t mean you aren’t a writer, but AFAIK he has not published one jot nor tittle.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Reminds me of an Anne Lamott novel where a character observes that the majority of “writers” of her acquaintance mostly slept, drank, and talked on the phone all day.

  39. Bird Lady*

    I am guilty of being the person in the office that the team cleans up a dead bird for. In my defense, I have pet parrots, support avian rescues with both time and money, and teach people how to care for their companion birds. But if the bird is breathing, I’m also the person that gets called to care for it or find it a rehabilitation site.

    On the other hand, I can’t remember the last time I cried at work. At home with a glass of wine about work? Sure. But at the office? Nope.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I don’t see any issue with a team protecting a coworker from an unusual and non work related experience that they know will be difficult for them. That’s kind. The issue here (which someone articulated upthread better than I did when I had a similar thought) is that it’s unclear if they’re doing it to be kind to Vanessa, or to avoid the fallout of her emotions.

      1. Observer*

        This. But also, it seems to be pretty clear that this is *not* an “unusual” situation, but rather something they’ve learned how to head off very smoothly. Big red flag.

  40. Justin*

    That sounds jarring to everyone. I don’t know that she needs tough love but she could be encouraged to step away if she feels it coming on or something like that.

  41. Observer*

    OP, a few lines jumped out at me:

    anessa cried throughout a meeting explaining the merger. My team simply let her be, but it was clear Tim was distracted

    That’s a LOT. It’s no wonder Tim was distracted. And while your team “let her be”, I can’t imagine that this was easy for them – either they have to shut down their own empathy or they are stuck trying to process someone’s intense emotions while trying to process their own emotions.

    One of my team members stalled Vanessa in the hallway while another ran outside and moved the bird to the garbage with a shovel.

    This is a clear indicator that Vanessa’s emotions ARE presenting a problem at work and that people are putting in real effort to forestall her melt-downs. That’s an unfair burden to put on others. And while I’m sure no one is complaining, it doesn’t mean that they are ok with it. It may very well mean that they feel like they can’t say anything.

    Because when Tim pointed out ““Can you see that you can’t talk to Vanessa like an adult?” you respond that “She *is* an adult” (emphasis mine) but still don’t want to talk to her like one.

    And while you say that you think that you should deal with personality conflicts “if” they come, you’ve already pushed back on *a supervisor* who is having an issue. People almost certainly see that “I also want Vanessa to keep being Vanessa” is going to mean that people who are uncomfortable are going to be expected to work around her.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “Because when Tim pointed out ““Can you see that you can’t talk to Vanessa like an adult?” you respond that “She *is* an adult” (emphasis mine) but still don’t want to talk to her like one.”

      That stood out to me like a blaring siren.

  42. Emily*

    If Vanessa was truly an empath, she’d be more worried about her behavior is impacting others (I’ve also yet to meet an empath who is truly an empath, but I digress). OP, Tim has seem really good insights (especially about teams that have been together a long time not always seeing dysfunction) and I hope you take what he is saying into account. Vanessa’s needs shouldn’t trump everyone else’s, and right now it seems like they are.

  43. Jodi*

    Her team ignoring Vanessa’s crying drama doesn’t mean they’re OK with it. I’d certainly ignore her crying but be inwardly rolling my eyes and wondering why her behaviour was allowed to continue for so long. I’d be happy that the new manager was finally doing something. If she needs to cry, she should be told to leave the room and stop holding others hostage to her emotional neediness.

  44. Olive*

    What are the options if Vanessa can’t or won’t stop crying? I don’t think that her behavior is fair to her team – crying throughout an entire meeting because of a merger announcement and crying during team lunches sounds like a work environment nightmare to me. But it also sounds like something very hard to police, especially since it should be fine for her to quietly shed a few tears on occasion. And even if she has coworkers who resent constantly managing her emotions, getting people to stop doing that is going to be hard. What should the realistic next steps be if having a conversation with her doesn’t result in any changes?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      You treat it like you would any other performance issue: you describe the issue you’re seeing, you describe how it is impacting everyone’s performance, and then you lay out some guidelines about what you need to see change and a timeline for changing it.

      If you have an EAP, you can certainly mention that. And if your health insurance covers mental health issues, you can also mention that (in a very neutral way, of course).

      It’s the manager’s job to manage the “what”–we can’t have someone crying in the office all the time. It’s the employee’s job to manage the “how” part of making that change, whether it’s therapy, medication, making changes in other parts of their lives, or a combination of those things.

      And if Vanessa can’t make these changes, then you can go to a PIP and proceed as normal.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Yes. At the end of the day, Vanessa might need to be in a different job. She might need to be somewhere where she can be in virtual meetings and turn her camera off, or works in a more isolated environment, or isn’t as stressed as maybe she is in this job. That’s for Vanessa to figure out.

        I think it’s a kindness to work with her as much as possible, and be patient as patient as you can, especially if she’s clearly making an effort. And if she decides to go the ADA route, handle that respectfully – but keep in mind there are even limitations there, and it’s highly unlikely that the approach as it stands would fall under ADA accommodations.

        1. Olive*

          I think it would be great if Vanessa could figure out or accept that herself with the help of her managers.

          It’s just hard to wrap my mind around firing someone because ultimately they can’t stop crying. And I don’t like working with extremely emotionally expressive people – as a coworker, I’d be one of the people rolling my eyes and wishing she’d go away. But I can see why the OP has been reluctant to manage this, because I have a hard time imagining myself as a manager telling someone that if they can’t change their annoying but mostly harmless behavior, they’re fired.

          1. BL73*

            I don’t think it’s harmless behavior if it’s making those around her feel uncomfortable or unable to effectively work with her.

            1. Harper the Other One*

              Yes, it’s similar to having a frustrated coworker who’s constantly muttering under their breath or slamming their hand on a desk. If they haven’t directed their frustration at anyone, it’s technically harmless too, but people would absolutely tiptoe around them. People wouldn’t feel that it was inappropriate to use a PIP for that, but it’s also “just” an emotional reaction that’s distressing coworkers and interfering with tasks.

            2. Clisby*

              Yes – harmless would be if she could work entirely remotely, seldom having video meetings, and get all her work done satisfactorily. In that case, nobody would even know she’s crying off and on all day. It’s when everybody else has to put up with this that it becomes … not harmless.

          2. Eldritch Office Worker*

            It’s not harmless if it’s distracting from work or making other people sit in discomfort. I get what you’re saying, and emotional issues are always difficult to manage, but it’s really not that much different than if she was screaming or vomiting or doing other expressive actions that make the people around her uncomfortable and unable to work. It is still, at the end of the day, a performance issue in this particular role.

          3. Dust Bunny*

            It’s not mostly harmless if it’s causing problems for other people, though, and the OP can’t know that it’s not if she’s demonstrated that she’s unwilling to address it.

          4. Observer*

            because I have a hard time imagining myself as a manager telling someone that if they can’t change their annoying but mostly harmless behavior, they’re fired.

            This is the key to the problem. The OP is having the same problem. But that problem only exists because the OP is ignoring the fact that Vanessa’s behavior is actually NOT harmless.

  45. Ama*

    I think this may be one of those situations where OP initially agreed to accommodate Vanessa because how often can someone cry at work (and it sounds like it first manifested when she received feedback so OP may have been thinking it would largely be limited to those situations), but when it turned out Vanessa cries frequently and in a lot of different situations, OP thought she had to keep tolerating it because she already said she would. (I haven’t dealt with this with crying, but I definitely fell into this trap as a new manager where I gave a report approval to do something thinking it would be maybe a few times a year and had to claw it back when it turned out to be a few times a week.)

    It isn’t a fun conversation, but it is okay to go back to Vanessa and say “I should have probably said something earlier, but the crying is happening more frequently than I thought it would when we first talked about it and we need to find better ways of handling it other than having you regularly sit through staff meetings with tears running down your face.”

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Yep, if this is the case, it’s perfectly okay to say that something had previously been approved is now problematic because it’s happening far more often than originally anticipated.

      This is a thing that happens, and good managers follow up on this. Bad managers don’t and hope it goes away and instead it ends up festering and becoming a bigger problem.

    2. El l*

      Yeah, I think that’s probably what happened – the first time OP thought “Everyone has bad days”, and by time #10 they’d lost the chance to address the pattern because, consistency.

      Having Tim and this merger is a chance to break this cycle. Maybe not tough love, but certainly a call to action is needed.

  46. DramaQ*

    I am someone who is programmed to cry at the drop of a hat. I angry cry, scared cry, sad cry. Strangely I do not happy cry. The thing is I know that is not going to help me in the workplace and I’ve learned to manage it. The thought that my co-workers would feel the need to go shovel a bird off a sidewalk lest I disrupt the entire meeting is mind boggling to me. That is someone who needs professional help. Tim is correct the letter writer has been trained by Vanessa to view this as normal at the expense of the rest of his team. Just because the rest of them go along with it doesn’t mean they like it and I wouldn’t be shocked if they are all secretly hoping that the merger will result in exactly what Tim wants to do and if not will start job hunting. Tim was not insensitive he asked the right questions about ADA accommodations to determine what path of action he should take. I would not be shocked if the letter writer ended up being cut along with Vannessa after awhile because his sense of normalcy is way off. Being neurodivergent myself I certainly appreciate people who recognize that and will work with me but at the same time I have no right to hold everyone else hostage. I have to be capable and willing of meeting my fellow adults in the middle.

  47. RagingADHD*

    I always think of crying at work as the emotional equivalent of a physical symptom like throwing up.

    Anybody might have an episode where they throw up at work for some reason. It’s best if they can excuse themselves to the bathroom first, but if it really hit them out of the blue, they might not make it and that shouldn’t reflect badly on them.

    If they have some kind of chronic situation like morning sickness, they probably need an accommodation so everyone understands that they might have to step out of a meeting or conversation suddenly. Again, this shouldn’t reflect badly on them.

    But nobody would think it was okay for a team member to *routinely* throw up at their desk, in meetings, or at a team lunch, several times a week, and expect everyone else on the team to ignore it. That team member needs to show some courtesy and self-awareness. Maybe they need to go to the doctor. But you can’t have a healthy environment if all but one of the team members have to sit through these episodes with their (metaphorical) fingers in their ears, going “la, la, la, nothing’s happening” when something definitely is happening.

    1. Rainbow Stripe Dress*

      This is such a thoughtful comparison! Will definitely use it in conversation.

    3. Former Young Lady*

      I never would have imagined that the best-written, most thoughtful analogy I’d read today would be about barfing in public, but here we are. This comparison is excellent, and I’m so glad you wrote it!

    4. authorized user*

      This is a wonderfully useful analogy and I appreciate it, but also it made me feel better about actually vomiting with no warning at work last week (bad reaction to a medication change). So thank you for that!

    5. Cut short for time*

      Agreed, good analogy. For most of us emotional vomiters, we really do try to make it the bathroom in time!

    7. T'Cael Zaanidor Kilyle*

      There are some fields where, due to health codes, anyone who throws up has to go home immediately and can’t come back to work until it has been at least 24 hours since the last time they vomited.

  48. Emma*

    I have had to work with a Vanessa before and honestly the tears were sometimes weaponized. I was a colleague and not a manager and got reprimanded for “making her cry.” It was impossible to give her necessary, constructive (even sensitively-delivered) feedback that was imperative for doing a job correctly. Another manipulative person in HR took advantage of this and reported me for bullying! (for offering normal feedback that no one else had an issue with) and HR backed her up because again, tears. I ended up leaving the organization voluntarily because of it — eventually people caught on to excessive crying and she left. The HR person who took advantage was moved to another department. Moral of the story, you need to have some baseline professionalism. I have cried sometimes at work too, but I pull it together and/or go to the bathroom.

    1. Just Another Zebra*

      Yes! The Vanessa I work with definitely weaponizes her tears, so that people will be “nicer” to her, ie avoid telling her anything negative or uncomfortable. It’s really exhausting trying to work around her, let alone with her.

      1. Emily*

        Yeah, I can definitely see that happening. That is one of the first things I thought of that Tim may get framed as being mean/bullying simply for wanting Vanessa to behave in a work appropriate way.

        OP, I really hope you can frame this in your head as trying to do what is kindest for Vanessa, and what is kindest for Vanessa is letting her know what changes you need to see in her behavior and brainstorming coping techniques with her (such as leaving a meeting if she starts to cry) because what is happening now is not kind for Vanessa or your other employees.

    2. Lacey*

      Ugh, been there. I had two criers. One held back her entire department from improving for over a decade because any changes broker her heart.

      The other was supposed to be helping me, but cried over my marking her work with corrections. I got told to stop correcting her work and it stifled her growth for years.
      She’s still horrible at her job, but of course that just means she got promoted to management.

    3. Observer*

      OP, I think that if you really want “quirky” Vanessa to be accepted, you need to really thing about this comment.

      I don’t know if Vanessa weaponizes her crying or not. But you can be sure that some people will see it that way. And once that happens, they are not going to cut her – or you for that matter – any slack when the garbage hits the fan.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        And some people will weaponize it *for* her (the “omg, you made her cry!” phenomenon).

  49. Mensa CW*

    “I cry a lot – just ignore it.”

    I cannot fathom the ridiculousness of an entire department coddling this employee for a decade – and the ridiculousness of not recognizing the many levels of dysfunction it’s created. I am not without sympathy for sensitive people but one person has held this department hostage for 10 years.

    I’m not sure how I would approach this as a new manager. It’s going to be brutal. I’m rooting for you, Tim!

  50. Antilles*

    I’m really curious about how OP provides negative feedback to Vanessa. “Having a meeting and laying out some things that need to change” sounds like totally normal boss-employee discussions; if OP is worried that will be way too harsh and needs softening language, I’m wondering how OP handles discipline to Vanessa.
    Unless she’s a perfect employee who’s never late on a deadline or missing a goal one month or whatever, don’t you have to deliver bad news every now and then? Or are you just ignoring Vanessa’s flaws to avoid provoking a reaction?

    1. Observer*

      I was wondering about this, too.

      It seems to me that this is one of the reasons a few people mentioned that Tim may not actually be suggesting that “tough love” needs to be employed here.

    2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      OP, let’s extend this. Do you have trouble providing negative feedback to your team? Have you found it difficult to have any difficult conversations only with Vanessa or is this true for everyone you manage? These are normal parts of managing and if you haven’t had a conversation with Vanessa about her obvious behaviors, what else have you been avoiding?

  51. MisterForkbeard*

    I have a person working for me (used to be two levels below me) who was excellent at her job, but did cry when under pressure or when receiving significant criticism. We were honest with her and told her that we loved her work ethic and skills, but that the tendency to cry in stressful situations was going to hold her back from working with other people outside the team or even getting much more seniority than she had.

    To be clear, she was not nearly as bad as Vanessa. But it did cause some uncomfortable moments. We laid it out as a professional development challenge and she took to it. I promoted her to management a year or two later and she’s actually one of my best managers – empathetic, doesn’t criticise unless it’s warranted, and really pushes her team. And at the same time, they know she really cares about them and they try to meet her expectations.

    Which is to say: Tim’s right here and you should talk to her about it. This is and will hold up her career and her ability to work with people professionally and she should fix it, or at least learn to hold it in during work hours.

  52. Another County Heard From*

    There have been so many spot on comments about how Vanessa’s emotions being managed by her coworkers is unprofessional and inappropriate but I also have to echo that Vanessa is being miscategorized as an empath. There is no mention of any other displays of emotion outside of tears? Does she spontaneously break out into fits of laughter when a colleague giggles? Does she throw and break things if a coworker loses a deal? It sounds like she is only reacting to sad or uncomfortable emotions with displays of tears, classic attention seeker behavior that was probably adopted as a child and that adults like LW have continued to perpetuate and accommodate. It is also important to reiterate that the only feelings that Vanessa is feeling are her own and she is forcing everyone around her to be empathetic to her feelings while she is completely obviously of theirs or of professional norms for that matter.

    My final thought here is that Vanessa’s displays of emotion could be very insulting to some people who work very hard to manage their emotions and remain professional even in the worst of circumstances. Of course people have and are entitled to their own personal reactions and how they process their emotions but for a coworker to have the same emotional in a meeting about a company merger as to a death of an animal, it diminishes all her emotional responses. She is devaluing her own reactions by having the same emotional outbursts at every turn. Her tears now mean nothing but have become a cumbersome inconvenience that those around her are forced to deal with even when she herself won’t. If this were one of my direct reports and they refused to develop coping mechanisms or develop strategies to cease all emotional disruption at work, I would seriously consider letting the employee go with cause.

    1. Double A*

      It doesn’t seem like she’s even reacting to *emotions;* she’s reacting to events. Which means she’s not an empath, she’s just sensitive. Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with being sensitive, and I’m not the label she gives herself even makes a difference (although people who announce they’re “empaths” are kind of proud of it, like it’s a good thing, and “sensitive” is less of a positive label).

    2. PoolLounger*

      Tears all the time aren’t necessarily attention seeking. Most of us who cry at the drop if a hat will leave the room or try to stifle the tears. We don’t want attention for crying, and in fact it’s usually negative attention.

  53. Heather*

    All brains belong. Someone who struggles to control their emotions (like me) still need to earn a living, are still capable, and can still be professional. I agree that something should change in that office, but not that she needs to be pushed out. She shouldn’t be allowed to cry during meetings, but should be allowed to silently slip out of meetings if she is going to cry. Some of us have tried everything, including various medications, to no avail. Some of us do need understanding and sympathy for these struggles, which, while they don’t have a protected label, are certainly not on par with the emotions of most people. We need more understanding and acceptance of neurodivergence in the workplace.

    1. Heather*

      One more thing, it greatly saddens me how the overwhelming number of commenters (which does closely mirror how it is in society) assume she can control her crying and is therefore worthy of scorn and punishment for this “selfish” situation she has carved out for herself. I’ve been viewed this way too for being labeled as overly emotional because of my struggles that I work hard to control (while downplaying how hard I work so that I don’t appear even weaker – which ironically makes it look to others like I don’t try hard at all). And calling herself an empath – that’s just because there’s no way to describe these sorts of struggles in a professional setting that save face. I feel like the way neurodivergent people are treated nowadays will be something that rightfully horrifies the next generation…

      1. Dust Bunny*

        As opposed to how they’ve been treated in the past? As “hysterical women” and “losers”?

        I’m ND and Vanessa’s behavior would have had me searching for a new job, like, yesterday, precisely because her emotions–hers, specifically–are too much. And I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to ask people to limit how much of their emotional lives they bring to work because it’s a shared space and there needs to be room for everyone to function. That some of us have had a particularly hard time doesn’t entitle us to take up the oxygen in the room–we can do that at home and with our therapists.

        You conceded to Eldritch Office Worker below that it’s about finding a balance but that’s not what your original comment or this reply suggest. Finding a balance means that Vanessa’s emotions don’t get priority all the time.

      2. Courageous cat*

        This last sentence though. You think the next generation is going to be like, yes, everyone cry at all times, that’s totally fine and not disruptive at all?

        Your mental health problems are not your fault, but they are your responsibility. I’m depressed, that doesn’t mean I get to be an asshole to everyone around me because of it, and anyone who treats me poorly for it is being “ableist”.

        1. H.Regalis*

          I am having an extended falling out with a friend who thinks exactly just that: Everyone needs to be cool with him yelling, punching holes in walls, sobbing at the drop of a hat, sulking/throwing tantrums, asking the same thing over and over when he doesn’t like the answer he gets, and so on; and now that I’m pushing back against it, I’m ableist, a bad friend, and unsupportive. I’m also neurodivergent! You still need to be considerate of other people.

      3. Irish Teacher*

        I’d agree with you in a general sense, that crying is generally not something people do deliberately and though I seem to be in the minority here, I do think it is generally reasonable to expect people to just ignore it.

        However, in this particular case, I am a little more doubtful, mainly because of the reaction to the dead bird. I do not know whether this is indicative that Vanessa is…well, maybe somebody who has realised that tears get her what she wants or whether the problem is more with the coworkers. It is possible Vanessa would be fine about the dead bird; it might make her cry but that is something she’s used to and wouldn’t expect people to go out of their way to protect her from it but they are the ones over-reacting and interpreting her tears as a bigger deal than they are.

        But in either case, delaying a meeting and somebody going out with a shovel in order to avoid upsetting somebody who cries easily (I think it would be different if this were a particular phobia of hers) does indicate an issue somewhere.

        1. allathian*

          This really reminds me of my year in the UK.

          At the start I was often frustrated because my limited English skills meant that I didn’t always understand the teacher’s instructions, and the teachers’ loud voices scared me at first (I came from a small rural school where my teachers could easily make themselves heard in their “indoor voice”). Thankfully I learned quickly, and after 3 months I no longer needed a student tutor to help me with notes in class. But early on, I often cried out of frustration in class.

          I was 12 when we went there, and quickly realized that in the UK, kids over 5 (especially boys) are not supposed to cry unless they’ve hurt themselves badly enough to need some medical attention, like cleaning a scratch or worse.

          As a consequence, my teachers couldn’t deal with me crying at the drop of a hat, and I got away with a lot of things that my English classmates wouldn’t. By the end of the year this had become my MO.

          I stopped crying all the time as soon as we returned to Finland and people either ignored me completely or looked at me like I’d grown a second head when I cried, instead of tying themselves in knots to try and console me, anything to get me to stop crying.

          I was 12 and 13 at the time, trying to learn a new language and culture, and in retrospect I think that my behavior was manipulative. I find it strange that I got away with it for so long. I got good grades, too, so the teachers didn’t penalize me for not conforming to expectations of appropriate behavior. Vanessa doesn’t have those excuses.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      We do, but it goes in multiple directions. Crying can also be triggering and uncomfortable for other ND folks, and make it hard for them to focus and do their jobs. Not all jobs are suited for all temperaments, and that’s a real conversation that some people need to have. In a hybrid world it’s so much easier for us to find more comfortable settings than it used to be. Now I’m not saying Vanessa can only work remote, or has to leave this job, or that they should stop trying to work with her – some sympathy and dialogue is absolutely needed here. But OP has let the pendulum swing way too far in the other direction, and Tim is right about that.

    3. Zap R.*

      We have no evidence that Vanessa is neurodivergent and no one said anything about pushing her out. It sounds like everyone involved is trying to be understanding and accepting of Vanessa; they’re just struggling to figure out what that should look like.

      1. Courageous cat*

        Right. I would also love it if commenters here would stop ascribing any negative behavior ever to “neurodivergence”. Many (if not most? not sure?) people are *not* neurodivergent – why not take it at face value instead of assuming she simply must have some kind of deeper reasoning?

        1. allathian*

          Depends on what’s included in the definition, according to some estimates about 15-20 percent of the world’s population has some form of neurodivergence, and a large number of those exhibit several forms. And many/most diagnoses don’t affect a person’s ability to work well with others. I’ve never heard anyone claim dyslexia as a reason to treat others badly, for example.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Your comment makes me wonder — if we asked Vanessa to actually get up and slip out of the meeting to have her emotion, would she actually have the big emotion by the time she left the original space, walked to the new space, and gave herself a moment to recompose herself?

      It’s the “get a drink of water” trick that resets your brain a bit and lets you regroup.

      And if she’s doing that, then the rest of the team can just get on with what needs to be done, and maybe Vanessa starts to internally reinforce a more adaptive strategy for these moments and can transition toward “I bring a bottle of water with me to meetings and if I get overwhelmed I’ll take a sip, close my eyes, and reset for a few seconds so that I don’t disrupt the team.”

    5. Snell*

      Yeah, but Tim’s not trying to push Vanessa out, he’s trying to address the situation at all. 10 new people are joining the team, Vanessa’s conduct isn’t something that people can typically expect in the workplace, and it’s not something that people who work alongside her should be expected to put up with or handle/manage for her. The LW’s solution is to not address the situation at all, because they believe the situation as it stands (everyone in the workplace working around Vanessa, even if it puts them in uncomfortable situations) is solution enough.

      For my own estimation, I’m not sure that LW will actually address “personality conflicts” as they come up (as they say they plan to), since Tim already brought concerns directly to LW and received this response. It’s wonderful that LW is considerate of “the misfits, the quirky, the sensitive,” but it will only benefit those who are willing to be vocally out of the norm. Loads of people who are “not normal,” enough so that they’re societally penalized for it, learned early on to shut up about…everything, really, just to avoid attention to protect themselves. LW says everyone who currently works with Vanessa is okay with it, but there’s really no way to know that. It’s an assumption that the LW takes for granted, possibly because this is how things have been for so long.

      1. Observer*

        For my own estimation, I’m not sure that LW will actually address “personality conflicts” as they come up (as they say they plan to), since Tim already brought concerns directly to LW and received this response.

        I’d go further – the OP clearly is not going to deal with it. They don’t even recognize that the problem exists. Tim was distracted and brought this up with them, and yet the OP says that they should deal with conflicts “*IF* they come.” What is going to have to happen for the OP to recognize the issue?!

    6. Observer*

      Someone who struggles to control their emotions (like me) still need to earn a living, are still capable, and can still be professional.

      True. But Vanessa is not controlling her emotions. That’s the whole issue here.

      but not that she needs to be pushed out

      No one is advocating that as a first line. First line is to lay out what needs to change and hold her to that. And to work with her to find accommodations if possible.

  54. Just Another Zebra*

    I work with a Vanessa. Like your team, OP, my office mostly works around her. But let me tell you how that looks most days – there are frequent comments / remarks / grousing about “making Vanessa cry” if we have to tell her anything the slightest bit negative. 50/50 she gets weepy. This has resulted in many people just emailing her, because speaking face to face is… exhausting. She’s liked as a person, but not as a coworker. If Vanessa gets distressed, she cries, and workflow stops at her desk. She is unavailable for a time to answer questions while she composes herself. Vanessa is a nice person, but a difficult coworker.

    Listen to what Tim has to say. It’s possible you really are desensitized to Vanessa’s issues.

  55. Rainbow Stripe Dress*

    Tangent! Please feel free to nip in the bud if unproductive. One of the features of my autism is “hyper-empathy,” and the most frivolous example I can think of is that I wear all my clothes in order, an equal number of times—because I don’t want any single piece of clothing to be left out and have its feelings hurt. My inability to emotionally regulate in the way most people consider “normal” (never mind professionally) has been a constant obstacle in my work life. And yet I try SO HARD for that not to be the case! I go to great lengths to mask these difficulties, not least because other people’s distress in response to my distress can cause… I dunno, like an embarrassing level of emotional escalation for all concerned. On one hand, I’m genuinely jealousy that Vanessa has found a workplace that will cheerfully ignore her tears.

    On the other, one of the reasons it took my therapist years to convince me that “hyper-empathy” was a real thing and relevant to my life was all the wildly self-centered and manipulative people who call themselves “empaths” and use their volatile emotional states to control the people around them.

    The fact that one of Vanessa’s managers sees in her the first kind of person and one of her managers sees the second is, weirdly, not nearly as relevant information to me as what her peers think. The kind of person who controls a room with well-timed temper tantrums and other outbursts usually also manages to suck up pretty effectively to the boss. All the people working with her already know if she’s a cancer or just a lil’ softie, but they also already know that OP is firmly on her side—like if Tim’s focus on this issue was actually brought about by a complaint from one of OP’s direct reports who is used to OP declining to handle this issue, that’s pretty meaningful information.

    /fanfic

    1. MsM*

      I suspect Tim’s bringing this up because he knows his team, and knows there are personalities who are either going to have no patience for this or are going to be set off by it themselves. (Probably the former.)

    2. arthur lester*

      +1 to all of this– hyper-empathy is a hell of a thing and I’m a little envious that Vanessa is given such a pass on it, but also, if I had to work with someone that out-of-control after how much work I put into seeming “normal”? I would flip my lid.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Also an autistic who anthropomorphizes inanimate objects here: I cried hysterically when I had to donate my first car because the transmission blew up. I felt like I was putting a pet to sleep for something that I could maybe fix if I had more money, just tried harder, etc.

      (It was not actually fixable–the replacement transmission would have had to have been the same kind that had just self-destructed).

      But I don’t get to do that work. And my coworkers should not have to put up with it at work. And, honestly, I’m not jealous because I’m not the only one who has to function in this space and I care about those other people, too.

      1. PoolLounger*

        I’m just so glad to hear that other adults also anthropomorphize inanimate objects. (Tangent: another thing that made me feel better about it was reading Buddhist writings about rocks and plants having Buddhanature. Even some philosophers from hundreds of years ago felt this way!)

      2. STAT!*

        Your anthropomorphisation of things is very interesting! Is it all kinds of objects, or only ones that already have some kind of emotional salience for you?

        1. arthur lester*

          I can’t speak for anyone else, but mine has nothing to with actual sentimental value. Like, if I think about getting rid of something that’s meaningful to me, it makes me sad because I don’t want to lose it. But if I think about getting rid of an object my hyperempathy has latched onto, it makes me sad because I don’t want to hurt its feelings. (And my workaround for not hoarding with this is to imagine that every object wants to be in a place where it belongs and where it is loved, and that it would be cruel to keep it when I can’t provide that to the whatever-it-is.)

    4. Observer*

      That sounds EXHAUSTING. I’m sorry you’re dealing with it, and I hope your therapist is being helpful.

      I also don’t know that your last paragraph is fanfic. The OP is clearly and firmly on her side. Everyone on the team surely knows that. And whether or not Tim had a complaint or just was able to read the room more effectively is not really relevant. Because clearly even if it were just Tim, he’s still a person who is significantly negatively being affected by it.

    5. RagingADHD*

      That sounds like a lot to deal with, and I’m glad your therapist is helpful in managing it. But to be literal here, these are your own emotions that you are ascribing to these objects.

      You are emotionally attached to the objects, and relating to them in ways that help you process your own feelings. And that’s fine! Everybody has things they are attached to in one way or another, it’s just really intense for you and you see it a particular way.

      The clothes do not have feelings. You do. This is part of you expressing your humanity in the medium of a beloved object.

      1. Rainbow Stripe Dress*

        Yes, this is what hyper-empathy is! “Too much empathy” i.e. I feel things too deeply. It isn’t magic, it’s the way my brain works.

  56. Czhorat*

    If the LW’s approach is wrong, it is wrong for the best reasons and in the best of ways.

    Is a conversation merited, and has Vanessa become a bit of a loose stair? Possibly. Is standing up for the misfits, the quirky, and the sensitive a good thing? ABSOLUTELY.

    In fact, I’d say it trumps “professionalism”. If the choice is between following professional norms and supporting your lovable weirdo you should always relax the normal “professional” standards.

    Ideally, though, there’s a middle ground in which you can do both. Let Vanessa take a break. Find a quiet room for her. Figure out what most triggers her worst collapses and see if you can adjust her work away from that.

    But by all means, I applaud you for wanting to do the right thing – even when it isn’t easy.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I’m afraid I’m picturing a pitched battle between employees who each want to be the lovable weirdo everyone else has to bend to accommodate.

      1. Former Young Lady*

        This. “Everyone has to do extra emotional labor for me because I’m special” isn’t being empathic. It’s Main Character Syndrome.

        1. Czhorat*

          And that’s fair.

          To be clear, *I* am probably the office weirdo, but more a “teaches tourist to lunch during my lunch break and talks about myself in the third person” kind of weirdo than the “everyone has to handle me with kid gloves because I’m VOLATILE” weirdo.

            1. Czhorat*

              Sorry, typo. I meant “teaches tourists to juggle”.

              Not sure how I got “lunch” in there.

              1. Bibliothecarial*

                Heh. I love how fixing the typo actually made the sentence more weird. (If I am ever a tourist in your area, please teach me to juggle.)

          2. Observer*

            See, I am COMPLETELY on board with accepting your kind of “weird”. But the other kind? Not so much.

            Empathy? Yes. Accommodations? Absolutely where ever possible.

            Think about this – would people see you the same way if you tried to FORCE people to juggle?

      2. Rainbow Stripe Dress*

        Didn’t realize until this exact moment how much I wanted a Manic Pixie Dream Girl Pageant—surely at the rate Hollywood does remakes, a Gen Z Drop Dead Gorgeous is coming soon?

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        Yes; what happens when Vanessa 2.0 comes along? Who’s even MORE teary and quirky and what have you? Does Vanessa get demoted as the “sensitive” one? Will there be a Thunderdome type battle over who gets their feelings worked around the most?

    2. Dust Bunny*

      All of these arguments in favor of being sensitive and accommodating ignore that they’re being completely insensitive and unaccommodating to everyone else who just isn’t willing to make their emotions everyone else’s problems. The Vanessas of the world aren’t special, they’re just ostentatious.

      The right thing is to consider that other employees may have needs that conflict with Vanessa’s.

      1. Just Another Zebra*

        This, exactly.

        Not a workplace situation so the parallels are a bit tenuous, but… when my mom is grieving, her emotions take up SPACE. I don’t know how else to describe it other than she’s very emotive in her grief. Growing up, it was very hard for me to grieve, because her grief took up all the space. Even now, as an adult, I don’t like to be seen as grieving. On a smaller scale, I can see this happening with Vanessa. Jane can’t vent her frustrations about a difficult task, because it will make Vanessa cry. Bob is dealing with a rough time at home, but feels weird expressing it because then Vanessa will get upset.

        OP can be commended for considering Vanessa’s feelings and personality… but she’s doing it at the expense of the rest of her team. That’s the problem.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I see we have the same mother.

          My mom and siblings are touchy and prone to Big Feelings, and grudges. My dad deals with emotions by denying that they exist. I’ve learned that I have to be the steady, low-drama person in the family or things are just unworkable.

          I realize that this is not a good dynamic but since Mom and Siblings take everything so personally and are so reactive, and Dad is a brick wall, there doesn’t seem to be a way out.

    3. SofiaDeo*

      I don’t agree with supporting the “lovable weirdo” when it directly impacts work in this way, to where my own work is affected. Criers, sneezers, hiccup-ers, emergency phone call-ers, all should leave the area and not subject everyone to whats going on when it occurs regularly enough to disrupt people. Let alone a number of folk actually stopping work to deal with them. Everyone working there there must be on pins & needles when this person enters a room, and it’s not that it’s “unprofessional” so much as “it’s interfering with the department functioning smoothly.”

    4. Cheryl Blossom*

      I’m sorry, but I don’t want people to be quirky and sensitive at work. Be yourself, sure, but be the work-appropriate version of yourself.

      I *am* a sensitive person who cries at the drop of a hat, and I work really hard to reign that in because it’s an unproductive response and it makes other people uncomfortable!

      1. UKDancer*

        It depends how intrusive the weirdo part is in my view. I have one colleague who is a bit eccentric, deeply passionate about his football team and when they win he comes in wearing his football shirt the next day (if we don’t have meetings with anyone) and his desk looks like a shrine to the club. This is somewhat weird but it’s tolerated because it’s not disruptive. One of my close work friends is a goth and tends to wear dark clothes and moderately goth make up (toned down for work).

        These are fine in our company and the one I worked with before because they didn’t really intrude on anyone else and weren’t disruptive. If you do something that intrudes on everyone else or requires them to do something involving a lot of effort then that’s going to be less popular. So swearing a lot or doing things involving lots of emoting that people need to intervene with very regularly will be less popular.

  57. BeepBoop*

    I think there’s a line here between managing Vanessa’s crying and managing Vanessa’s emotions. If Vanessa is just quietly weeping while smiling and going about her day, that IMO is fine, and probably the issue is everyone else overcompensation. Crying can be an involuntary response. I experience involuntary tears and involuntary stress hives, but I go about my day as though I am not experiencing these things. People can’t always control their bodies reactions, but she can control how she goes about her work while her body has those reactions.

    1. MsM*

      “probably the issue is everyone else overcompensation”

      But that in and of itself is a problem: either Vanessa is reacting in a way that is effectively forcing people to manage her emotions, or somewhere along the way the message went from “Vanessa’s fine; just go on with what you were doing and she’ll recover in a minute” to “Vanessa needs extra-careful handling,” and OP needs to figure out how that happened so she can fix the culture that’s sprung up around it.

  58. Boolie*

    I mean, if I’m reading correctly, Vanessa has been on the team for 10ish years and business seems to have proceeded just fine regardless. This sounds like a Tim problem.

    1. anna*

      Is that the response you would want from your management if a coworker were doing something disruptive every day? “Business is proceeding just fine so it’s a you problem.” What if were yelling instead of crying?

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      ” long-standing teams can be dysfunctional and not realize it because we are so used to working around it.”

      Have you never been in this situation? Where you have a teammate or someone otherwise integral to your organization that people just put up with even though they’re a nightmare? Vanessa may not be full nightmare, but it is incredibly common for people to work around problems instead of solving them. Tim is absolutely correct that even if her team has gotten used to this situation, it’s unreasonable to expect incoming staff to just deal with it. This is part of why we have professionalism standards. So people know what is and isn’t reasonable to expect to deal with in a workplace.

    3. Zap R.*

      The team merged with another team and Vanessa sobbed through the introductory meeting. That is 100% a Vanessa problem.

      1. Modesty Poncho*

        Nobody said “sobbed”. They said “Cried”. Crying can be nearly silent. It could have been a couple of minutes, or it could have been the whole meeting. Everyone always hears “I cried” and imagine “I wailed and boo-hooed and made it everyone else’s problem”

        2. Gemstones*

          She “cried throughout” to the point that Tim felt compelled to say something. And it’s a regular occurrence. It’s…a problem.

        3. Zap R.*

          It doesn’t matter. If I was a new team member sitting in on a welcome meeting and one of the older members of the team cried silently throughout the whole thing, I’d be really unnerved. That’s all I’m saying.

    4. Czhorat*

      I LOVE this LW and think that this is the BEST POSSIBLE way to be, but I also think Vanessa might have become a bit of a loose stair; they have gotten SO used to Vanessamanagement as an add-on task that they didn’t realize how much time and energy it’s taking.

      It’s possible that it can keep going like this, but also likely that – especially adding a larger team – there’s a need to adjust how they handle her.

      I just hope it remains as loving and kind as possible.

    5. Marketing Unicorn Ninja*

      Business seems to have proceeded, but you cannot possibly know from the outside if it has proceeded ‘fine’ or it has proceeded but could have proceeded much better if everyone weren’t constantly managed Vanessa’s emotions.

      I think we’ve all worked with someone about whom it’s been said, “Well, Jane has always been like that, and it’s fine!” and then Jane quits or retires or gets managed out or gets raptured by aliens and suddenly people get to experience what it’s like to NOT work around Jane and her obstructions and suddenly things are dramatically better.

    6. L-squared*

      Totally disagree. Just because people work around unprofessional behavior, doesn’t make it less unprofessional. Sometimes it just takes an outsider to see how messed up things are.

      1. StressedButOkay*

        Omg I have worked with far too many people whose behavior was not acceptable but since they – technically – didn’t impact business, was allowed to continue. It was bad for moral and exhausting to deal with these people. Just because there’s been unprofessional behavior allowed to happen doesn’t mean it should continue.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      The exact same thing could be said if Bob, who is in charge of submitting expense reports, had always demanded that these be submitted on a live chicken.

      The exact same thing could be said if supervisor Alex had an arrangement that any time someone was a minute late they had to give Alex $50 cash, which the employees solemnly explained to newcomers as fair because when you mess up you have to be punished.

      1. Observer*

        Are you referring to the letter from the person whose boss was going to fine her a half day’s pay for being late to work one day?

    8. Dust Bunny*

      Since we don’t know how it would have proceeded without her crying, we don’t know that it’s fine. It might be at 50% capacity and we just don’t know better.

    9. Belle of the Midwest*

      But whether the business has been proceeding just fine or not, it has been merged with another company and while it sounds like the big bosses are keeping everyone aboard, at least for now, there may be changes coming down the pike. Unless Vanessa has a hard-to-find skillset, if the decision is made to reduce headcount or there is a clash between her and some of the employees who came with Tim–who can perform as well as she does without needing to have their emotions managed by their coworkers–she may end up being managed out for any number of reasons. if OP leaves, that’s one fewer person who’s willing to accommodate her. The newer teammates may see her the same way Tim does–as someone who’s not been held accountable for managing her behavior–and they may refuse to accommodate her, too. This is NOT a “Tim problem.” I feel sorry for Vanessa, but I wouldn’t want to work with her, either.

    10. Observer*

      and business seems to have proceeded just fine regardless.

      That’s the classic excuse whenever there is some dysfunction that a new person wants to fix. “We’ve always done it this way! It’s FINE!” even when it isn’t.

      In this case, we know it’s not fine – Vanessa is the classic missing stair and her entire department has been forced to work around her.

    11. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Let me tell you, I have come in as the outside observer to dozens of businesses that have been operation for a while and seen issues so egregious that I have to sit there for a second and wonder how I am the same species as these people. What happens is that everything ‘works fine’ within the very dysfunctional system until an outside influence is introduced, and then it disintegrates in short order. Which is exactly what is about to happen. In the case of OP, even if they weren’t bringing on a number of new people who will probably be very disturbed by daily tears, there’s any number of things that could happen, or could have happened, that could have disrupted the system faster.

      Tim is right. If you’re in a dysfunctional system long enough you start working around the dysfunction instead of seeing it as a problem (see: Captain Awkward, 90% of archive). Tim’s solution, which is to attempt to get Vanessa the help she needs and retrain the team that no, this isn’t normal actually, is about the best case scenario here to a sudden change.

    12. Ochre*

      I mean, we have a co-worker who is rude to clients and other staff, skives off of her assigned work as much as possible, can usually be found in the breakroom instead of working…and she’s been there more than a decade because of a combo of: the complexity of union rules/discipline policies, her deficits are mostly soft skills and not easily quantified, and 3 managers haven’t managed to get rid of her. An outsider would say “she can’t be that bad because she is still here.” Lemme tell ya: she is that bad, we just work around her, don’t assign her anything we know she’ll screw up, and coldly ignore her when she’s rude. We don’t even bother talking to our manager about it most of the time because it’s clear nothing will change. It’s a bad dynamic all around (how much would it suck to know all your co-workers hate working with you?!). At least it sounds like Vanessa is personally likeable, but that doesn’t mean this situation is good for anyone. Productivity isn’t the only way to measure the health of a team/situation.

    13. Snell*

      I’m just not going to agree with the logic that “This is how things have always been, and we’ve gotten along just fine, therefore, the newcomers are the problem.” It’s the same logic used to push women/black people/other non-white people/non-straight people/any other number of “undesirables” out of the workplace and keep them marginalised. As a manager, LW must consider the needs of all their employees, not just the needs of Vanessa at the expense of everyone else.

  59. Lacey*

    Vanessa told you to just ignore the crying, but people clearly aren’t able to do that. They’re going out of their way to avoid anything that might make her cry. That’s got to be exhausting.

    1. Somebody Call a Lawyer*

      Yes! This is the biggest sign that Vanessa is draining to work near.

      OP, there was a Vanessa in my support group (not for grief) who cried every time she said anything, week in and week out, regardless of the content. Just the fact that she was talking set off full-on sobbing. This was a support group, so it held all the space in the world for tears, so I tried to factor that in. I never ever I came to dread/hate being in the room when she spoke because it kicked up so much — feeling manipulated, feeling trapped, feeling like I was being made to be responsible for managing her emotions around taking up space or even breathing, feeling like someone was forcing me to relive dysfunctional parental relationships, abd more.

      I mention this because this was in a setting were tears were fine. Not in a work setting. And it was still a nightmare. Letting a whole team remain captive to Vanessa’s behavior is seriously wrong on so many levels.

      1. Somebody Call a Lawyer*

        Oops, I meant to write “I never ever expressed my frustrations with her (I had an expression of “there, there” plastered to my face), but …”

  60. New Senior Mgr*

    I can understand that when you’re a very close and small team, going through birthdays, anniversaries, funerals, illnesses together, that this would seem like just another day of caring for your team member. You care for her so no biggie, right? But do take Alison’s advice. It’s a kindness to her and a kindness to the whole team. Goodness forbid you eat end up with old team vs team issues over it. That wouldn’t be good for anyone.

  61. StressedButOkay*

    OP, like many people here are saying, I think you’re so used to this that it seems normal. I do think it’s lovely that you want to make it a safe space for Vanessa but you’re overbalancing it for everyone else. Even those who are used to it – not everyone has to be comfortable with it, though they might speak up.

    Also, how loud is her crying? How extreme? It’s clear that this is disruptive for everyone – including Vanessa! I can’t see how she’s able to pay attention when feeling overwhelmed by emotions enough to cry. It will actually be a kindness to her and all of your staff to address this.

    1. Modesty Poncho*

      I can answer this, as a crier.

      Sometimes you aren’t overwhelmed with emotions. You just had a quick, flashpaper moment of intense frustration/anger/sadness/overwhelm and you started crying. Then the feeling is over and you’re fine, you’re just still crying because once it starts it’s hard to stop. When I worked in an office the easiest and fastest way to get it to stop was just to be ignored and keep working. My head was clear, it was just my eyes that weren’t.

  62. Flower*

    The behavior to head off crying is much like the eggshell-walking and enabling that goes on to keep someone from yelling.

    I, too, came in as a manager to a formed team with a frequent crier and a group of employees who had also learned to dysfunctionally work around the person who regularly cried. This person also had one champion who would point out the crying and how much distress the person was under and demand that managers do something about it. I came to see things as Tim did — there was a manipulation going on there and frankly, worries about the possibility of the crying could paralyze the team. It wasn’t healthy and I addressed it in a calm but persistent way. The person left not long afterward. And the team exhaled, including the champion of the crying employee. Things got way better.

    Since crying is a sorrowful kind of distress, I think people are more willing to try to accept it because they fear looking insensitive. But really, at its core it’s an emotional outburst, not that different from yelling, which people are generally less inclined to accept.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      > This person also had one champion who would point out the crying and how much distress the person was under and demand that managers do something about it

      “Be careful what you wish for”!

  63. I edit everything*

    OP, have you ever watched to see where people sit relative to Vanessa in a meeting? If she’s one of the first to the conference room, to other members of the team willingly sit directly across from her or next to her at the table, or is there a preference for sitting neither too close to her nor with her directly in their line of sight? That might give you some insight into how Vanessa’s crying is perceived by others on the team. If they find it distracting or just don’t want to deal with witnessing it, they’ll arrange themselves in ways that minimizing their proximity and visual engagement.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      That’s smart. OP is taking for granted that the rest of the team is just fine with this. If the bird situation played out with the amount of anxiety I’m imagining, that’s already a cue that they’re not. Other nonverbal signals might be very helpful to observe.

    2. NNT*

      NNT*
      April 4, 2023 at 4:06 pm
      This is so smart, and so true. The OP will likely be tempted to ask a few members of her team whether they are bothered by Vanessa’s behavior, but that’s the wrong approach. At this point, her entire team has spent literal years getting the message that managing vanessa’s emotions comes with the job, and likely won’t want to tell the boss who has allowed it to go on for so long that yes, in fact, they have found it highly irritating the entire time. But you know what never lies? Voluntary seating arrangements. :-)

      1. Mrs. Hawiggins*

        But you know what never lies? Voluntary seating arrangements. :-)

        One thousand percent this!!!

    3. What name did I use last time?*

      Wow, what an intelligent comment! I wouldn’t have thought of it, but this would provide some objective information that no amount of “How do you REALLY feel about Vanessa?” conversations would.

  64. Office Skeptic*

    Wait, if Vanessa is an empath, and empaths feel the emotions of those around them, and Vanessa is crying all the time… that would mean everyone in this office around her is miserable. OP seems to believe Vanessa is an empath, so then why aren’t they worried about the apparent heartbreak of the other staff that she is picking up?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yeah sensitive and empathic are not the same thing. There’s some skepticism that the latter even exists, but if it does this isn’t what it looks like.

    2. Lacey*

      Right. I think… maybe she is just a crier. I’ve known a few people who cry a lot. Happy, sad, angry. They’re going to cry. But that’s different than being an empath.

  65. SirHumphreyAppleby*

    I do wonder if OP you feel this isn’t a big deal is because Vanessa is crying. if she were for instance banging on keyboards or slamming doors when she was upset or had received feedback you’d see the problem much more obviously.

    Vanessa being an “empath” – I hate this term, since it’s often used to excuse exactly the kind of behavior being exhibited – isn’t a reason for every one to have to deal with a regularly crying co worker. Many people may say it’s not a problem, that’s just who she is, but I’d bet that many people would prefer to not have this problem.

  66. Grace*

    I’m being brief, but I have sympathy. Maybe she needs professional help and can be encouraged to get it. I was like that post-partum. 10 mg helped. Also, felt like crying a lot in a job that was not suited to me, full of snarky coworkers. Change of jobs, voila! No more distress.

  67. T Slam Another Meeting*

    I’m an empath. Things touch me deeper than most people. I notice things most don’t. I’ll say “poor baby” and almost cry when I see a dead animal on the road. But when I’m at work, I’m in WorkWorld. I am focusing on work, and while I use my skills as an empath, I don’t cry at work (ok I did once when I was pregnant and had a tyrant for a boss) nor force my co-workers to work around my feelings. In what work space is this ok? Finally a place that really operates like a family, but a slightly toxic one.

  68. GingerNP*

    I currently work as a staff nurse in an emergency department and 1) we’ve all cried at work at some point but 2) the result is concern and sympathy from colleagues and the consideration of allowing us time to hide (usually in a storage room) and collect ourselves. Our work is physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding and sometimes tears are the outlet valve – but it’s not always one particular person, and frankly we’re not collectively putting in any energy to avoid the tears.
    Vanessa has altered what is normal for your team, LW. It is something you and Tim should figure out how to address.

  69. Cat among the pigeons*

    Crying is a sign of distress but not just of distress. It can also be relief, love, being moved by someone or an act of kindness, joy, and sometimes we cry without truly knowing why we cry.

    I understand it’s not very regular, but I wonder if it’s considered distressing for others because it’s out of the ordinary or because people are genuinely upset.

    If I had a colleague who would weep at anything at all (I mean some minor tears, not big tears and/or wailing) , I would eventually just get used to it and ignore it. Actually, the more often this happened, the more I would be able to dismiss it as “Oh, that’s just how they are.”

    Why would we accommodate autistic folk in the workplace, but not someone who sheds some tears at odd moments?

    So in that sense, I completely understand LW, and applaud them for not making a big deal out of it. Also pretty amazing how coolly Vanessa herself has handled it apparently: “I do that sometimes, just ignore it. ”

    I do get that there are many people who find crying upsetting, but then, there are people who feel uncomfortable dealing with disability or neurodivergency.

    If she is a super hardworking well-performing colleague that gets on well with others than this is something that can be accommodated.

    1. HR Friend*

      Because accommodations are for disabilities. Being a (self professed..) empath isn’t a disability. Whether or not *you* find crying upsetting doesn’t matter – plenty of people do, especially in a workplace! Crying is objectively disruptive. It takes all the focus from work to whatever the heck Vanessa is on about this time.

      “That’s just how they are” is not a good reason to let people act however they want to act at work. I’ve personally talked to a coworker who had a habit of sighing loudly and muttering to himself when he was stressed. None of that harms me, and I could have tried to ignore it I guess, but I spoke up because it was distracting and distressing to listen to all the time.

      Btw there’s nothing in the letter indicating that Vanessa is hardworking, a high performer, or well liked.

    2. Samwise*

      Because we don’t accommodate without reserve every behavior, even if the behavior is caused by a disability or a baked-in difference. We accommodate what we can, to the extent that it is not disruptive or unreasonable to do so.

      If we’re in the US, ADA requires *reasonable* accommodations.

      Vanessa is getting is being accommodated unreasonably. She is being accommodated at her team members’ expense. And the new work context — merger, new manager, new team members –is making this very evident.

  70. MuseumChick*

    Late to the game today but I agree with Tim. It sounds like your team is so used to Vanessa’s behavior you are not seeing it clearly.

    Someone crying through a whole meeting would have me very distracted as someone new to the team and is deeply unprofessional. Let say someone on your team leaves and you need to hire someone new. If I came into a job and was expect accept that someone cries all the time (including through entire meetings!!) I would be looking for the door fast.

    I do feel for Vanessa as I can often be an emotional person. But at the end of the day the behavior your describing cannot be allowed to continue. Look at how much effort is going into your team “working around” her behavior. You have to also consider how this makes the team look to other departments. If I saw someone in a department constantly crying I would have a lot of questions about that team.

    Her being an “empath” is to a large extent irrelevant. Tim is being heavy handed with his approach but you have also mishandled this by allowing it to continue for so long. Alison is right, you need to sit down with Vanessa and come up with ways she can manage this like Alison suggests.

  71. Modesty Poncho*

    I have to force myself to sit this one out but I agree with the LW. Sometimes Vanessa cries. The whole world would be better off if more of us could get OVER the selfish (in a non-judgmental sense) need to soothe and comfort someone they see crying who has asked directly to be ignored. Vanessa is existing as best she can. I’m sure it’d be more disruptive for her to disappear for five, ten, fifteen minutes every time she feels herself getting teary, rather than just waiting it out and getting work done in the meanwhile. New people will be surprised at this, but why is it Vanessa’s problem if someone isn’t able or willing to take her word that she’s not distraught, she’s just crying and they don’t have to do anything?

    The fact of people not being able to ignore me when I’m just having emotions at my desk is one reason I feel forced out of the traditional workplace. But maybe Vanessa can be offered work from home as an accommodation.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Again, though, this puts the onus of dealing with the situation entirely on everyone else, whose emotional needs are equal to Vanessa’s. It’s no less selfish of Vanessa not to learn to temper her responses or remove herself from the setting.

      The world does not, or at least should not, revolve around Vanessa and her needs–she owes as much to everyone else as they owe her.

      1. Modesty Poncho*

        Yea, and it’s very possible that this is the best Vanessa can do. In my case, it was five minutes of quiet crying at my computer or 15+ minutes of hiding in the bathroom begging myself to stop crying so I could go back, setting myself off again over and over. This was after years of therapy and meds, and after having gotten better. I really do believe this is a more immediate need than someone else feeling uncomfortable with hearing someone else cry and leaving them alone. If someone is crying at their desk, it’s not your problem.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          At your desk is different than in the middle of a meeting though. If she has to miss a few minutes of a meeting for the sake of the person leading it, she can be caught up, while it may actively impact the ability of the person leading the meeting to do their job (as indicated with Tim) or may impact the meeting being able to continue (as indicated with the bird). Ultimately it’s an internal discussion about what boundaries are acceptable for this workplace. Neither Tim nor OP seem to think Vanessa is doing it on purpose, and I do hope they can continue with sympathy, but they need to find better solutions for everyone.

          1. Modesty Poncho*

            That’s true. I just have trouble imagining a Tim as described being OK with Vanessa missing chunks of most meetings because she’s going to cry, and that not itself being a disciplinary issue. Someone above mentioned that it’s also a problem if she spends too much time away crying, so what’s the answer?

            This isn’t about you, I just can’t pull myself away from the comment section and it’s doing a number on me today. I literally am unemployable for this reason, when “just ignore me” is actually the answer. Alison has advised easy criers to say exactly this in the past. It shouldn’t be so hard for people to take her at her word. She isn’t demanding everyone kowtow to her whims and she isn’t asking people to walk on eggshells for her. If they stopped trying not to upset her and started just – as she asked for – ignoring the tears and not trying to make her feel better, I wonder if EVERYONE would be able to relax more, including Vanessa. The fear that I’m going to get in trouble for crying provoked far more tears than the actual momentary things that set my eyes off.

            And yes – I have been around people who are distressed and asking to be ignored, and so I ignore them. I was around a casual friend when she had to be checked out by an EMT team in full view of our community theater dress rehearsal. As far as I know, no one pried into what had happened to her. We made sure she was alright and no action was necessary, and then we went about our day. Uncomfortable? Maybe, but that’s not hers to worry about. Crying surely is less distressing than an ambulance being called. Why isn’t it the same principle?

            1. Dust Bunny*

              If someone needed an ambulance called on a regular basis, I guarantee you their coworkers would be concerned.

          2. Storm in a teacup*

            I would also add that it’s disruptive for everyone else attending the meeting. Your companies have just merged. Everyone is probably a little nervous or on edge or stressed. Seeing Vanessa crying through the whole meeting? I’m sure there would have been colleagues in that meeting who were distracted and not just Tim.

            The world does not revolve around Vanessa

      2. BL73*

        This is correct. Vanessa’s needs do not trump anyone else’s. Frankly, I could not work with her and perhaps a traditional work place isn’t the best place for Vanessa. If WFH is possible, great. Because I could not sit in a meeting, at a team lunch or near the desk of someone who cries all the time, which is what the LW is describing.

    2. Underrated Pear*

      I think saying that people feel a “need to soothe and comfort someone they see crying” is a misreading of the situation (not just this specific situation, but in general). The truth is, it’s very difficult not to feel some level of distress when someone else is crying, and having to concentrate on your own work (and your own emotions, if an upsetting decision is being announced) would be EXTREMELY tough to do. It’s unfair for Vanessa’s coworkers to have to feel that all the time.

      “Vanessa is existing the best she can”: OK, but as a hypothetical, what if the uncontrollable reaction was not tears, but anger? Imagine if you entered a new workplace and your new cubicle neighbor said, “Hi, something you should know about me is that when bad stuff happens, like getting a frustrating email response or finding a mistake in a document, I tend to react by punching the wall and cursing furiously for a few minutes. Ignore it! I’ll be fine in a few minutes, it’s just a reaction I can’t control.” Would that be reasonable?

      This is not a perfect example – I think you’d be justified arguing that anger is “worse” because it has the added element of not just being uncomfortable, but frightening to others. But the overall point is still the same: you can’t just say, “these are how my emotions work, deal with it” because that’s asking people to turn off their OWN natural reactions in response. Other people have emotional needs, too, even if they’re not going around crying or cursing all the time. I certainly think there’s a middle ground and that we can be understanding of each other’s different ways of dealing with things, but within reason.

    3. Samwise*

      If it were *sometimes* Vanessa cries, then sure. But she cries at meetings. She cries at team lunches. She cries at her desk. She’s crying a LOT.

      And everyone is on alert to make sure that things don’t happen to make Vanessa cry. The bird is kind of an extreme example (I actually get that one and don’t think it’s unreasonable), but I betcha there’s a lot of day to day don’t upset Vanessa emotional work going on in that office.

    4. Cheryl Blossom*

      Trying to comfort people who are visibly upset is one of the main ways that we as humans show (actual) empathy! It’s just how we work! The problem here is not that everyone else is “selfish”, it’s that Vanessa seems to have issues regulating her emotions in a way that is actively disruptive.

    5. A person*

      This whole comment thread has made me very uncomfortable about myself… I don’t cry much at work (not never… but not often), but I am easily startled and I work at a place that has a lot of sudden loud noises so I jump… a lot (several times a day at least). Most of my colleagues know that, but with newer people I usually have to say “it’s fine, I just startle easily, just ignore it” until they get used to it (and yes… some of them try not to make me jump and will warn me when they’re going to do something that may be startling – I haven’t asked them to do this and it isn’t necessary but they do it… does that mean that I shouldn’t be able to work there because my colleagues feel a need to be careful about making me jump, and I’m a horrible person for inflicting this emotional distress on my colleagues ?). I have no control over the jumpiness and I am good at my job and don’t think I should be disqualified from it because someone might feel a little bad for accidentally making me jump.

      Sure… crying is probably arguably more upsetting to the general population than making someone jump. But there are a lot of people here that are really quick to jump to “they make me uncomfortable because they aren’t a robot so they may not be suitable for a traditional work environment”. I suppose a traditional office is pretty robot-ish… but maybe it shouldn’t be.

      1. Critical Rolls*

        There’s quite a lot of daylight between “They make me uncomfortable because they’re not a robot” and “she cries constantly, to the point of it being disruptive, and everyone is now conditioned to leap into action to try to avoid setting her off.” There is also a big difference between trying not to startle you, but continuing with work as normal, and holding up a meeting to deploy a strike team to quash a possible source of startlement.

      2. Mothman*

        A startle reaction of a few seconds is nothing like someone crying for hours a day. Unless you scream AT people for making loud noises or work with total jerks, I wouldn’t worry!

  72. Me*

    It’s refreshing to see so many people calling out the ~~empath~~ bs. This is a Very Online phenomena that is mostly claimed by people who want attention.

    1. Mothman*

      My therapist referred to me as an “empath.”

      I’m on your side. It has lost whatever meaning it may have once had. If it had one.

      I mean, I DO want attention. But, I want it to be for my infinite wealth and fame, not for my claim over a buzzword. :)

  73. CLC*

    I think there’s a couple things going on here. I am a person who cries easily as a purely biological response, sometimes when there is no clear situational or emotional reason to, sometimes as a response to mild anxiety, etc (though oddly this hasn’t been as much of a thing for me since I was pregnant a few years ago). Anyway, I have on a few occasions in the past had to tell people I often cry at somewhat odd times and it really hurts to try to hold it in, so please don’t think I am really upset. But it sounds like Vanessa’s issues isn’t that she physically cries a lot, but that she *is* really upset a lot. I think that’s a big difference. The crying thing can be dealt with with Allison’s suggestions. The getting upset part—I don’t know what you can do there. While it is really disruptive for the team to feel they have to scramble to hide a dead bird, a person who cries at the sight of a dead bird still has the right to earn a living. I would say just stop walking on eggshells around her. Like let her see the bird even if it upsets her? I think the problem is less Vanessa but the way people respond to her.

  74. Suzy Q*

    I would absolutely hate working with Vanessa and try every way to get off her team. Every self-reported “empath” I’ve ever known was narcissistic, incredibly unself-aware, and the least aware of others’ feelings.

    1. Melissa*

      Same here. “I’m empathetic” means “I am a kind and compassionate person.” Whereas “I’m an empath” means “I’m self-centered and you all need to rearrange your lives around my comfort.”

  75. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

    I think that there needs to be a discussion about the crying, especially with the new team members having joined. I would be curious to know more about the “tough love” and “softer” approaches. Because “tough” to me sounds unnecessary and more about Tim’s discomfort than Vanessa’s issue. Clearly, the characterizations could be way off and “tough” just means “forthright.” But if Tim’s approach to workplace issues is “knock it off,” that’s not good management. People who are 100% uncomfortable with feelings being expressed are as sensitive as people who cry at the drop of a hat.

    1. Observer*

      I see absolutely no reason to think that Tim is actually just all about “knock it off”. Keep in mind that the first thing he asked about was accommodation. And the OP’s perspective is so far from reality that they simply are not a reliable reporter here.

      Not that I think that they are lying! But they talk about “if” personality clashes happen when Tim is ALREADY having a problem and says explicitly that he knows that the new staff is not going to be able and willing to work around Vanessa to the extent that the OP’s existing staff are.

  76. Maybesocks*

    For me, sometimes there was no reason at all for me to be crying my eyes out. It just happened. No emotions behind the crying. Apparently, it is a common symptom of depression.

  77. NNT*

    This is so smart, and so true. The OP will likely be tempted to ask a few members of her team whether they are bothered by Vanessa’s behavior, but that’s the wrong approach. At this point, her entire team has spent literal years getting the message that managing vanessa’s emotions comes with the job, and likely won’t want to tell the boss who has allowed it to go on for so long that yes, in fact, they have found it highly irritating the entire time. But you know what never lies? Voluntary seating arrangements. :-)

  78. mimi*

    I’m one of those people whose physical response to stress is to get teary – lots of therapy has lessened it only a bit – and I’ve definitely used the “Please just ignore it” line, so I can sympathize with Vanessa to an extent. But man, I can’t imagine not doing everything in my power to make sure that it doesn’t affect my workplace (if nothing else, it’s embarrassing!). Tough Love may not be the exact right approach, but the team has gotten into an unhealthy pattern that needs to be addressed.

  79. Lemondrops*

    I agree with both managers. Compassion is sadly lacking in today’s world. Yet I’m concerned that her crying has been happening for years. she seriously needs therapy either via EAP or BetterHelp or through health insurance. This is having a detrimental impact on her work.
    I liken it to having a physical hurt like a broken leg – you get it seen to. you don’t excuse it and just let it be. same with mental health.

    I hope she gets help and has a good career and life.

    1. Observer*

      Compassion is sadly lacking in today’s world.

      I’d be willing to bet that some staff are saying that about the OP.

      I liken it to having a physical hurt like a broken leg – you get it seen to. you don’t excuse it and just let it be. same with mental health.

      That’s true.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      So where is the compassion for the coworkers?

      Also, I don’t want to hear any more about how compassion is lacking in today’s world when we have, like, all of history to prove that the current condition of things is hardly unique. I’m not sure how the child labor/Jim Crow/your wife is literally your property era was somehow more compassionate.

  80. Roland*

    I cried at work this morning while talking to my HRBP and I still think this sounds like too way much crying at work on a regular basis.

  81. Gary Patterson's Cat*

    I agree this sounds like it has become very excessive – but then again, some people are just overly choked-up with emotion and blub at the drop of a hat (triggered by songs, films, news, births, birthdays, sad or happy, you name it!).
    How is Vanessa’s work in general aside from the constant crying? Any other issues? Does the crying prevent her from meeting deadlines and otherwise interacting and being a productive employee? Does she perform her job duties well and to good standards? Does she otherwise fit in and is liked by other employees? If there aren’t any other performance issues, then I think Vanessa needs some coaching, EAP, therapy, medication, or all of the above to help her manage her emotions better in the workplace before having Tim take any more drastic steps. Vanessa may never be cured of this completely, but if she is otherwise a decent employee, she should be given a chance to remedy this quirk and manage herself in the workplace better.

    1. Observer*

      Does the crying prevent her from meeting deadlines and otherwise interacting and being a productive employee?

      Yes. Of the two examples that the OP mentions, the second one definitely did affect work – it delayed a meeting.

      Does she otherwise fit in and is liked by other employees

      How would the OP really know. They are clearly out to lunch on the matter and ignoring things that are glaringly obvious to others.

      she should be given a chance to remedy this quirk and manage herself in the workplace better.

      Of course she should. But it won’t happen unless and until someone lays it out for her. Which is what it sounds like Tim wants to do. And I think that the OP, by blocking him from doing this, is making the potential fall out when he DOES act, far worse for Vanessa (and possibly the OP, too.)

  82. RussianInTexas*

    I may take flack for this, but if someone tells me they are an “empath” it will 100% damage my view of them and I would not be able to take them seriously.
    So many “empaths” are out of the woods suddenly. They are everywhere.
    I consider them as legit as “I am stubborn because I am a Scorpio”.

    1. ~*

      Empaths exist, even if everyone who identifies as one isn’t actually in that category. It’s shortsighted to write off a group of people just because not everyone who claims to be in the group actually is. I have diagnosed OCD, and I wouldn’t want someone to ignore that just because people say they have OCD when they wash their hands a lot.

      1. Melissa*

        The difference is that OCD is a recognized medical and scientific category. With diagnostic criteria. “Empath” is not.

        1. arthur lester*

          Yeah, “empath” is up there with “indigo child” for how seriously I’m willing to take it. I think both labels are covers for actual diagnosable conditions, but neither one is actually what people think it is. (And I say this as someone who has been told I’m both. Nothing special or magical going on here, just trauma and autism.)

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        One emerging definition of empath seems to be “A person who feels big, overwhelming emotions, which they firmly blame on everyone around them.”

      3. RussianInTexas*

        The difference that OCD is a recognized medical term and empath is a fictional thing from ST:NG.

        1. Roland*

          Lol exactly. And even if some people feel extra overwhelmed by others’ emotions – well, like thread OP said, and I agree, that it’s the people who choose to say “I’m an empath” that I can’t take seriously. Like, people can be stubborn, that’s not the same as announcing “I’m stubborn because I’m a scorpio”.

  83. STEM girlie*

    I’ve definitely cried in meetings a few times, but usually during specific hard periods. I also once (completely unintentionally) let out an audible squeal when finding a huge dead toad on the sidewalk, in earshot of everyone at the smoke shack. And then one of them buried it for me even after I tried to get them to just carry on and ignore that.

  84. Petty Betty*

    Vanessa is NOT an empath. If she were (which, for the record, I do NOT believe in empaths as a rule, just hypersensitized adults with traumatic backgrounds), she’d be picking up on the feelings/emotions of her coworkers who’ve been catering to her emotions all this time.

    No, Vanessa is an emotional vampire and she is draining all of you into complacency. Tim is right that this needs to stop.

    1. The House On The Rock*

      Thank you! This struck me too – someone who was truly empathetic would understand that unbridled emotional responses in the workplace can cause distress and would work to avoid them. Also love the use of emotional vampire, so apt.

  85. MicroManagered*

    I worked with a Vanessa years ago and it was so, so difficult for me. She cried at work almost daily, often to the point of hyperventilating at her desk. I grew up with a lot of violence in my home and thus a lot of crying, so it was very hard for me to witness.

    When she’d reach the point of hyperventilation, I would feel my adrenaline activate and tears would start to well up in MY eyes… and sometimes I’d have to leave the room to gather myself.
    Eventually I started to wake up fearing going to work because what if Vanessa has an episode today? What if her crying makes ME cry and my mascara isn’t waterproof? What if she starts up while I’m trapped on a call and can’t excuse myself, etc.

    When I tried to speak up about it, my manager would respond very much like OP’s letter and never did anything about it. So, yeah we all worked around Vanessa and probably “didn’t seem to mind” but believe me, we minded. Eventually I left that job and while Vanessa & my manager’s inaction weren’t the ONLY reason, they were part of it!

    Tim is right here OP.

    1. Tears for Years*

      I very much feel this too. LW, you cannot
      know if Vanessa is forcing any of her colleagues to relive childhood trauma day in, day out because she refuses to get help for emotional disregulation. Letting this behavior stand for years could easily be harming some of your team members in similar ways.

  86. Flowers*

    I’m agreeing with Tim. This….isn’t OK at all. And I’m not sure what being an empath has to do with any of this? I consider myself sensitive, and yes I cry, but I try my best to do it privately, in my car or in the bathroom if I really need to. I get crying over bad feedback, a rough client, even feeling upset, hell I did that today! but…all the examples stated above… over a merger ???

    I’ve spent time and lived with people who constantly cried, opoely or loudly, and more often than not it ended up being manipulative and/or performative.

    I don’t know how people are able to just ignore it. Once, I teared up when talking about my daughter, and I was embarrassed (to the coworker’s credit, they just handed me a tissue and we continued chatting and they pretended I didn’t cry – that was the best thing for me).

  87. MediumEd*

    I am a college professor and have a student who does this regularly in class. She told us at the beginning of the semester that she is an ’empath’ and that we should just ignore her tears. However, even with the warning, it was very, very distracting. The student would cry at the drop of a hat over things that didn’t seem that bad at face value (a band breaking up, for one example), and also about some of the more emotionally charged texts we were reading in class at the time. This student is also an adult (think late 30s, not early 20s). I was unprepared for the number of times she would cry in each class and it distracted from my lectures and student contributions to class. Everyone in the room was outwardly supportive and inwardly uncomfortable/exasperated. It would change the direction of the class from focusing on the material at hand to focusing on this individual student’s emotions.

    Tough love is not the answer here, but she needs to be told to learn to manage her emotions, even if that means leaving the room, and not relying on everyone else to just ‘ignore it.’ Crying is a sign of distress, as Allison stated already, and it goes against our natural instincts to just ignore it. Even if it is ok with your team, you can’t expect everyone who walks into a meeting with her to just roll with it. Allison’s suggestions are spot on!

  88. FYI*

    Crying is fairly involuntary. Is this disruptive? Does she sob or wail? Do her eyes well up? Do tears fall silently down her face? It’s unclear to me what happens when she cries.

    Obviously the team should not be running around trying to protect someone from the knowledge that a bird had died. But maybe the issue is resetting how the team does/does not react and how the employee handles it when she cries. That seems more reasonable than mandating someone doesn’t cry.

    Personally, my eyes well up anytime I mention my daughter, who died. In the almost 5 years since her death, I have ceased to give any Fs how that makes anyone feel, at work or anywhere else.

    1. Zap R.*

      Nobody is trying to mandate that she doesn’t cry though. And it is disruptive because it’s causing conflict with Tim.

    2. Systems thinker*

      This comment really lands for me– crying is generally involuntary. I agree with Alison that how Tim is proposing to address it could use some adjustment towards how to mitigate any negative impact on others (vs how to control something that is not controllable.)

      I see some concern in the comments that her colleagues must be exhausted handling this person’s emotions. I am curious about that but I also feel these folks are adults who can decide how they respond to people around them, and we don’t know how they feel about it. Maybe moving the bird was motivated by care for their friend (vs protecting themselves from her tears). Additionally I wonder if there is a group dynamic here where she is manifesting concerns held by others. Groups can do funny things. It might be about more than her.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        these folks are adults who can decide how they respond to people around them,

        So why the different/lower standard for Vanessa, since she’s playing the empath card? Let her also learn to decide how she responds to people around her, with less crying.

      2. L.Miller*

        If the manager is making clear that accommodation must be given them how honestly then can a co-worker, who may be frustrated by Vanessa, respond?

        They may wish to tell Vanessa please leave the room or even knock it off. But I doubt they’d feel the freedom to do that based on how the OP described the work culture in their group.

  89. The House On The Rock*

    As someone who inherited some “quirky” employees when I took over a new department and is now dealing with performance issues stemming from years of others turning a blind eye, I implore you to please take Tim’s concerns to heart.

    Tim’s approach might not be exactly right, but the behavior does need to be addressed both for the sake of the current team, any new members you bring on, and Vanessa herself who is likely being pigeonholed and held back in her career because no one has told her how she comes across.

    It’s unfair to subject people to that level of emotional response on a daily basis because you want to accommodate one person. And the fact that Tim asked about any ADA status means he’s not being a monster or uncaring, but he recognizes this is Very Not Normal and has to be addressed.

    1. goddessoftransitory*

      The original team has become an involuntary, unconscious cult of Do Not Upset Vanessa. They can’t even see how much of their energy and work capital with their coworkers is being spent on dealing with her, or how, frankly, off they probably appear to the incoming team members. They’re really back-footing how they come across to their new coworkers right out of the gate, and I’m sure the rest of the original company has kind of mentally written them off for a lot of interesting projects because nobody wants to have to sit through the Vanessa time-share presentation in order to work with their department.

      Tim is the guy saying hey, this “method” of dealing is not going to fly out here AND HE IS CORRECT.

    2. T'Cael Zaanidor Kilyle*

      The term “quirky” definitely jumped out at me, because to my mind, “quirky” is wearing cat ears or a Star Trek communicator pin to work, not appearing to have multiple emotional crises every day.

  90. T'Cael Zaanidor Kilyle*

    I cannot imagine how exhausting it must be for this team to keep managing Vanessa’s emotions on top of their real jobs. They may have gotten used to it, but Tim is certainly right.

    1. Henry*

      agreed, I think Tim sounds like he could be a breath of fresh air for this organisation.

  91. Sara without an H*

    Hello, LW — I haven’t yet read all the comments, but you don’t seem to be getting a lot of management advice. I’m offering some, based on 30+ years of management in academic libraries, a field that draws its share of quirky characters.

    I noticed that you didn’t say anything about the quality of Vanessa’s work. Is her work accurate and submitted on time? Is she willing to take on new projects? Does she work well with teammates? If the answer to these questions is yes, that should compensate for a certain amount of emotionalism, and you’ll be able to show Tim actual evidence of Vanessa’s effectiveness. If the answer is no…you have some thinking to do.

    Based on your letter, you and Tim are locked into adversarial positions regarding Vanessa. At this point, my advice would be to do some investigation. Can you check in with managers in other teams or departments who interact with Vanessa at least occasionally? What are their perceptions? Do they report that their teams avoid working with Vanessa? Or have they heard comments more to the effect that she’s a little dramatic, but gets the job done? Trust me, if she’s been with your company for 10 years, she has a reputation outside your department. Try to find out what it is.

    Mergers are big events and have huge implications for work culture. Be careful that you don’t lock yourself into the role of “Vanessa’s Defender!” While it’s good to speak up for “all things counter, original, spare, strange”…if others in the organization don’t see Vanessa that way, but instead see her as a nuisance who creates more work than she does, you will not be helping either her or yourself. It may be time to sit down with Vanessa (have a box of tissues handy) and talk with her about the need to find other ways to manage her feelings at work. Check in with your HR people for advice and whatever they have available in terms of EAP.

    But please don’t let your dislike of Tim (and I think you do dislike him) drive you to turn Vanessa into your Hill to Die On. That won’t be good for Vanessa and it won’t be good for you.

  92. RussianInTexas*

    My own childhood emotional trauma affected me in the way that I cannot manage other people feelings. I just can’t. The thought of having to deal with a constant crier, or screamer, or whatever else I need to walk on eggshells around makes me anxious and angry. Just reading about it does. Actually dealing with it? Not going to happen. It would mean a permanent stress that I am unwilling to subject myself to.

  93. Lilo*

    I’ve managed a crier. I do draw the line at meetings and public events. If someone cries in a one on one, I can deal, mostly by ignoring it. But having a multiperson meeting with someone crying is disruptive. I would have her step out at a minimum.

  94. Vanessa*

    I was a child who regularly had to see the school counsellor in elementary school due to my emotional outbursts. I was just an extremely sensitive child who had a hard time handling the world. My name also happens to be Vanessa.

    I am no longer a “cry-baby” who tears up at the drop of a hat and have only ever cried at work due to genuine distress that anyone would give me a pass for. I would say that this Vanessa is in dire need of some form of therapy to help her with her emotional regulation. If she gets a diagnosis of something, then great, but she still needs to actively work on it for the sake of her professional life. If there are any actual empaths in the workplace, they would likely be extremely distressed by someone constantly crying around them. I know I can’t stand when someone at work is angry or upset and it makes it very hard to focus. And I certainly don’t identify as an empath.

  95. The Bill Murray Disagreement*

    OP – I just want to add that while Tim’s approach might seem “tough love” to you (and maybe he’s even described it that way), informing Vanessa that she needs to do X, Y and Z to manage her emotions appropriately in the workplace is very reasonable. It’s a reasonable expectation to have of an adult working in the workplace, and it’s a reasonable thing to inform her of.

    That you think it won’t land with her / get through to her suggests that you’ve spent a LOT of time figuring out how to manage Vanessa’s emotions for her, versus setting expectations and letting her achieve those (with or without support and coaching). I think there’s actually some truth to what Tim is saying about your not treating Vanessa as an adult. If that’s accurate, I think you absolutely had the best intentions, but co-created a situation where everyone is managing Vanessa’s emotions for her rather than expecting her to behave according to pretty standard business norms.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      To second this, OP, did Tim use the phrase “tough love” or is that your interpretation? If Tim says he needs to have discussion with Vanessa–as opposed to giving her an ultimatum–that is not tough love. Your ability to judge the toughness of his approach may be compromised by your commitment to your approach to Vanessa over the past five years.

  96. Common Taters on the Ax*

    This is beyond quirky, but I do want to point out that it could be caused by a neurological problem. There are disorders that lead to inappropriate or out-of-proportion tears and laughter. If that’s the case, she should get an accommodation.

    If she’s calling herself an empath, maybe she knows that’s not the case. But it’s also possible that she came up with that self-diagnosis because she didn’t know there could be a physical cause. I would change the advice only to specifically leave open with her that she may want to find out if she needs a medical accommodation.

  97. upipaniot*

    I share the concerns about how Vanessa is affecting the rest of the team, but I really hate how any time the subject of tears comes up, there are people rushing to assume it’s manipulative or performative. I used to cry pretty easily and knowing that there were people probably thinking I was trying to manipulate them made it so much harder to stop what for me was genuinely a physical reaction I was working hard to get more control over. I honestly think there’s some sexism involved with the whole tears=girly=feminine wiles thing.

    Again, overall I agree that Vanessa needs to be dealt with because it’s not fair to the others on the team. I do worry that Tim’s approach might be informed by these attitudes though since they are so common, even though I think he’s right on the whole. I would urge whoever talks to Vanessa to avoid attributing any motivations to the crying and just deal with the behavior.

  98. Mrs. Hawiggins*

    If I were on a team like this (and I think I have been) I would coin it the way I did when I worked with the coworker – someone wants to say something but nobody wants to say anything. It’s a werid dynamic, and you just….do your job.

    I remember when I was Miss Hawiggins, there were times that yes I cried on the job. But that was my own issue – getting embarassed, upset, cruel bosses. The last time that happened 20 years ago I was in the ladies room stall wiping tears and blowing my nose when a sense of calm came over me and I let out the biggest, “What in the hell am I DOING!” To which a tiny voice replied, “you’re in a bathroom, so if you don’t know…”

    It would be hard to be in a situation like this. It would also be hard to be Vanessa. At some point it should be dealt with, for the sake of the coworkers, and maybe for Vanessa’s. Maybe because no one’s said anything she hasn’t really had to face it. Doesn’t need to be in a tough love way, or mean, or mad. Just appropriate.

  99. Former Crybaby*

    I (used to) be the kind of person who would cry at any sort of negative reaction from others. I thought I was just a super empathetic person, but it turns out that I’m a guy with ADHD and *very* bad rejection-sensitive dysphoria. I’m lucky, in that I’ve found a maintenance dose of a medication that greatly helps me with that. I’m also unlucky (in my opinion) because I’ve been the person crying at any sort of criticism (or perceived criticism) (or even customers yelling at *other* people, not even me).

    With that context out of the way… I’m kind of surprised Vanessa seems fine crying in front of others so much!! Even knowing it wasn’t something I could help, it was always terribly embarrassing for me when I cried at work – particularly when others reacted like I was faking crocodile tears to garner sympathy. (I was not, and it did make it pretty difficult for people to take my emotions seriously). A quiet cry at my desk when no one’s around? Sometimes that happens yeah. But in meetings? At lunch? If I was Vanessa, I’d be taking a bathroom break then, or eating in my car if it’s that regular of a thing.

    I realize everyone is different, and perhaps it’s just part of my RSD that heightens my own take on things, but it seems oddly… performative? To me? That Vanessa is crying in front of others so often! Not that I would say she has to somehow stop herself crying (I know from experience that the tears are gonna come no matter what you do), but I cannot imagine staying around people for more than a brief tearing-up. Perhaps she doesn’t think she needs to leave when this happens? Perhaps she *does*, but doesn’t think/know that removing herself would be an option? I’d think an “empath” would recognize that their emotional reactions could be upsetting to others, but maybe everyone is just too used to the status quo at this point?

    Vanessa being encouraged/empowered to take herself away from upsetting situations to have a more-private cry somewhere else might be a good option (for both Vanessa and for the others). Like if her desk is somewhat secluded, or if there are empty meeting rooms she could duck into? I definitely would *not* encourage her to go to the bathroom, that feels like it would cross professional boundaries (even though cold water feels good after a hard cry!). Vanessa being able to have a quiet space to collect herself in might help others not feel distressed by her distress, and it might also help her be able to help settle whatever emotions are so strong that she ends up crying from them.

    1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

      RSD was what jumped to mind – i know it isn’t the same but I have that as a facet of my ADHD too and it can make for Big Feels when I don’t want them.

  100. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

    Sounds like Vanessa flunked preschool. She needs to go back and read “Big Little Feelings.” My toddler cries a lot about random things but then she’s 2.

  101. Newbroom*

    Oh god, empaths and their pwecious feewings. I had a relationship with a guy who cried at the drop of a hat. When my kitten died, he went on a huge crying jag, and he’d never even met her! I had to comfort him about the death of my cat.

    When I caught him out in a small lie, he burst into tears and ran away. I ended up running after him and apologizing for making him feel bad about lying to me!

    Everything had to be about him and his feelings. Everything. At first I just assumed that he was going through a rough patch – we all have those, after all. After a few months I realized he was really a narcissistic monster disguised as a sensitive guy.

    OP, Vanessa knows she has you at her beck and call. She’s on a power trip, and you’re allowing it. Stop indulging her. Listen to Tim, he might be on to something.

  102. Morning Flowers*

    OP, I feel like you’re underestimating how *exhausting* it is to ignore someone crying.

    I have a sister/housemate who is currently in very, very bad health, physically and emotionally. I love her to pieces. I am Here For Her, No Matter What. She knows, and I know, there is very often nothing I can do to “fix it” when she looks incredibly miserable, or it outright crying. She usually just asks me to ignore it. And when she asks me to, I try to.

    It turns out ignoring someone looking actively miserable is like putting your foot down on a Lego and consciously willing yourself to *keep it there.* Every decent-human-being instinct you have is screaming at you to help, to change the situation, to do *something.* It is way, way more exhausting to determinedly do nothing than to do literally anything else. It has contributed to my own depression.

    There’s a reason your coworkers are leaping to manage Vanessa’s feelings — it is actually easier than ignoring them.

    The person who needs to be managing Vanessa’s feelings is Vanessa.

    1. Anonymous for this*

      I’m very sorry you’re going through this. It’s crushing–my husband is has been seriously depressed and anxious and spends a lot of time crying.

      I feel so so sorry for him. It’s heart-breaking. I know he’s suffering and he can’t help it.

      But I have to “ignore” it. I can’t also be sad and crying. Someone has to be calm and effective. Someone has to manage the house and go to work. Rationally I know, as you do, that I am doing the right thing. It’s exhausting, emotionally and physically.

  103. Poppy*

    If this has been going on for *ten* years, honestly it’s time it was addressed. I imagine everyone except Vanessa is very tired of it, as witness their instant swinging into action re: the bird. What’s staff turnover like in this team as compared to other teams?

    Good for Tim. Schedule a good sit-down chat with him – it may improve your own chances as regards the post-merger situation, for one thing, – as well as for Vanessa, for another.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      OP, please pay attention to Poppy’s last sentence. In every merger of which I’ve been a part, there was a period of evaluation and reorganization. Tim joining the company is probably part of this. You don’t want new leadership to view you as a poor manager who failed to manage an unprofessional situation. It could lead to you being demoted or let go. Remember, there are people above you on the hierarchy who are judging you for the first time. Protecting a disruptive employee will not help your standing.

  105. No Name*

    I think it’s bizarre that her leaving the room when she starts to cry isn’t standard. I know some situations won’t allow for this, but I get the feeling that Vanessa being able to cry around people openly is comforting for her. It could almost be cathartic. But the workplace isn’t the place to regularly reinforce those feelings.

  106. Fish Microwaver*

    Tim is correct. Vanessa is a missing stair and y’all have been dealing with it by stepping over it. I’m actually surprised Alison didn’t use this wording.
    I like to think of myself as an empath and a kind person, but Vanessa’s sensitivity is a barrier to effective work and helpful workplace relationships. I can see that Tim’s frustration could lead to wanting to take a tough love approach but this is likely to make Vanessa feel picked on. I would have a sensitive conversation with her, outlining how her frequent crying is affecting the team and suggest she work with a therapist to learn to manage her emotions. Not all workplaces are going to support her in the way yours does and she could find her professional opportunities limited or her behaviour result in termination.
    PS – I so need an update on this letter.

  107. sothenisay*

    I look at through the lens of it were a different emotional response- say, exchange frustration or anger for sadness and/or crying. Is it normal to get mad or frustrated at work sometimes? sure. Is it normal to bang on desks or yell at people or sigh loudly or roll eyes? Nope. Emotional responses are part of being human, professionality means not taking those feelings out on the people around you but processing them in healthy ways. Like excusing yourself for a brief moment. Or, if the situation allows, taking a walk or running to the restroom. Or going to therapy/the gym/walking the dogo afterwards.

    It’s not that she’s having emotional reactions to things, it’s that she’s not able to control it or find healthy ways to cope, either in the moment or afterwards-and subjecting coworkers to potentially uncomfortable emotional situations regularly.

    1. A person*

      I could be off base on this for others, but for me personally crying isn’t the same as banging on a desk or yelling at people. I find tears to be a much more involuntary physiological response to something than banging on things or yelling. I suppose that could be different for other people but I can definitely keep myself from raising my voice or rolling my eyes, but tears happen when they happen and usually no amount of trying to hold them in will stop them. So I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I think it’s very fair. I know plenty of people who will either swear they can’t control getting mad, or will swear they’re not actually raising their voices when they very definitely are. If I raise my voice at all my mother will literally yell at me to stop yelling at her (she’s yelling louder than I am).

  108. han*

    having some weird feelings about this one just because i was! the person in the office who would cry at the drop of a hat, especially during stressful situations, and while i would mostly do my best to remove myself from situations when it happened, sometimes that wasn’t feasible

    and i am fully on board with the people saying that this can impact other people etc, but the thing for me was that i like. physically couldn’t stop this? it was something that had impacted me my entire life. i could not be sure when or why it would start, and i could not make it stop. i had years of therapy under my belt strategies and techniques, etc etc, and still – any time i experienced a Strong Emotion, tears would show up.

    i relay this not to say that everyone should accommodate me, but rather, what do you do in this situation? a lot of people are proposing that she needs to be able to stop this behaviour somehow, but like…how?

    for me, it ended up being medication for a different issue that had the side-effect of turning the crying off like a goddamn switch, which led to a fun conversation with my manager about how proud he was of me maturing, which just felt…extremely unfair, because i hadn’t really personal growth’d my way out of this particular behaviour, i’d just accidentally stumbled across a medical solution.

    i don’t know that i have a point with this comment beyond, i empathise being the guy in the office who can’t control their physical response to something lol. i did my best to ensure that it didn’t impact my co-workers, but it’s difficult to have perspective on what that looks like when you’re the potential issue. it was a deeply humiliating experience for like, 24 years of my life, and i would have given anything to be able to stop doing it when it was ruling my life. and then it just stopped like magic.

    i don’t think it would have occurred to me that medication could help it, until that’s what happened. it definitely didn’t occur to me to talk to a doctor about it. i was just kind of resigned to being like that and minimizing the impact for the rest of my life.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      she needs to be able to stop this behaviour somehow, but like…how?

      Except you did find a solution. Nothing in the original post says that Vanessa has actually tried anything, or that the OP has encouraged her to as a necessity to the job. But that’s how–the OP holds Vanessa to a standard that requires a change (and by change I don’t mean complete elimination of the crying, just better moderation) and Vanessa acts to figure it out.

      1. han*

        i did! and i’m very grateful, but it was also entirely by accident. i got lucky, you know? and i really don’t know how i would have figured it out if it hadn’t happened that way. i thought it was like, a personal fault, rather than something that could have a biochemical solution. (i want to note that im obviously projecting onto this situation lol and can’t really comment on the actuality on it, only my feelings about my own experience that this has reminded me of)

        i think ultimately what i empathise with is the experience of knowing that there’s something wrong with you, wanting to fix it, not knowing how, and failing every time you try. obvs we don’t have information on how or if vanessa is trying, but also trying without succeeding at something like ‘stop crying all the time’ is going to look really similar to not trying, because people tend to only consider success as evidence of trying.

        sometimes people are trying really, really hard to address the impact their behaviour has on others, and don’t succeed. this comment section is full of a lot of people assuming obliviousness or selfishness on vanessa’s part, and i can’t comment to that. i can only remember the humiliation and futility of trying my hardest not to be this person, and failing every time, until suddenly i wasn’t.

        i’d never call myself an empath tho Yikes lol

  109. El l*

    Might reasonably claim that you’re managing this issue and successfully ignoring her crying if it’s just you in the room.

    That “it’s manageable” logic has already shown its limit with your small team of people who’ve worked with her forever can’t successfully ignore it. They’ve shown that by altering their behavior (as evidenced by the bird), and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been a burden to them.

    And now it’s impossible. Because when you’re in a larger company, it’s so much harder to build your office culture around little idiosyncrasies (at best) or actively disruptive behavior (at worst). You just can’t count on everyone knowing everyone else’s rules, built up over years working together.

    The time to change it is now. Soften it a little, sure, but things fundamentally have to change.

  110. Lynn*

    If I was Vanessa, I would be looking at Candace Van Dell’s youtube channel since she has video’s on empaths

  111. Anonys*

    Honestly, I’d recommend approaching it with the benefit of the doubt that there might be something ADA related going on, with the intent of finding reasonable accommodation. To be very clear, what’s happening now is *not* reasonable – it’s disruptive, it seems to be leading her coworkers to walk on eggshells, and if it’s leading people to tone down feedback or hesitate with higher pressure assignments it’s probably negatively impacting Vanessa’s career, too. That’s not sustainable.

    But framing it as “What can we do to make this less disruptive / is EAP or leave of absence something we need to look into?” comes across pretty differently than “just stop crying, it’s unprofessional” – and the latter approach can cause drama if it turns out there was indeed something ADA related going on. And not all disabilities are visible, you wouldn’t necessarily know if there was another factor here.

    (FWIW, there are multiple types of medical conditions that can involve convulsive crying without intense emotional distress – it’s a subtype of seizure. And this would change my mind on whether or not asking coworkers to ignore it is an appropriate ask, though it would still require making very clear to coworkers that they shouldn’t be pulling the “change your behavior to as not upset Vanessa” routine. “Don’t bring your emotional baggage into work, that emotional support isn’t reasonable to expect from your coworkers” is a very different ask than “stop having seizures where people can see you, it makes them uncomfortable.”

    Given how Vanessa is describing the situation, I suspect the above is *not* what’s going on here. But there have enough comments implying any people who are crying are intentionally looking for attention / are immature / etc., that this felt worth clarifying. And again, people don’t necessarily tell you when stuff like this is what’s going on, for a variety of reasons.)

  112. SB*

    People who describe themselves as empaths then use it to try to excuse their childish behaviours are ridiculous. Crying at work is almost never acceptable but when it is because you received some feedback you didn’t like or because a bird died it is incredibly unprofessional.

    1. Em*

      I remember I messed up within the first week of a new job, and I felt horrible, afraid of being fired, and tearful as I spoke with my manager about how to fix it (it was fine in the end). I couldn’t stop my voice from wobbling, but I was able to hold in my tears for the meeting and until I got to the bathroom stall. Sometimes you can’t stop it from happening but to expect people around you to be ok with frequent and prolonged bursts of extreme emotion, to the point of crying *through* a meeting, is wild.

  113. Young Business*

    Subjecting anyone to over-the-top emotions or disproportionate behaviour (even when it isn’t directed at someone in particular) is not fair in the workplace.

    I wouldn’t invalidate Vanessa’s emotions but I would emphasize that she needs to work on a way of coping with those emotions.

    As an outsider, I would perceive that the OP is oddly catering to Vanessa and probably favours her.

    The OP is setting a dangerous precedent whereby Vanessa’s emotional state trumps practicality and the emotional state of others.

  114. Hannah*

    I have been both the crier and around the crier in two separate work environments. Both were incredibly toxic and contributed to my own mental unhealth.

    I also get anxious and weepy when confronted with surprises in the work environment (especially the ones above that are not healthy), but it’s not a daily thing.

    I also think emotions are ok—crying is normal—excessive crying is not.

  116. Library Penguin*

    Oh I am so torn on this. On the one hand, I’m kinda side-eying Vanessa excusing herself as “an empath,” but on the other hand… I’ve been the office crier! I’ve been the person who goes “my eyes are going to start leaking during this conversation, but I promise I’m fine, please ignore it.”* But it sounds like Vanessa’s being more disruptive than that – is she actively sobbing or something? I was expecting it to be like that LW a while ago who knew she was going to cry in a meeting despite not being upset and wanted advice for how to be professional about it, but this… Isn’t that.

    * Yes this was undiagnosed mental health issues, yes it miraculously cleared up when I started treatment, no I do not want to speculate on why Vanessa is crying thank you.

  117. Em*

    I had a colleague, K, who sucked at her job and cried often. My manager left to a different job, and we met a few months after the fact to catch up. I mentioned a recent crisis due to K’s crappy performance and how frustrated I was with her inability to take feedback without crying and getting defensive. My former manager outlined this incredible strategy she used to talk with K: tell her how hard she’s been working, empathize with her that yes, she is having a tough time, ask her about her personal life, listen to all her drama, and then couch any negative or constructive feedback by a gazillion positive and/or sympathy driven comments. I was stunned that an adult was treating another adult in such a way and wondered how disadvantaged K had become because instead of being expected to behave professionally, she was allowed to behave like a child and treat her manager like a guidance counselor. It is extremely draining to work with someone like that, and it does them no favors to act like this is ok behavior.

  118. Miyon Im*

    I have a feeling Tim reads Ask a Manager, I think he’s dealt well with the situation all things considered and very “Alison” in approach.

  119. Come On*

    So I certainly agree that Vanessa’s behavior is over-the-top and needs to be addressed; however, I also want to address the ableism in the comments here. There is such a thing as a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP), and it’s not just someone being self-absorbed or dramatic. It’s a literal neurodivergence.

    That doesn’t change advice to the letter writer, as Vanessa really does need to work on controlling her emotional responses to things and she also may not have this. My comment is more in response to the “this isn’t a real thing/Vanessa is a big faker/there’s no such thing as an ’empath'” comments above. People need to be kinder. Vanessa’s behavior is problematic, but these comments are really unnecessarily mean and stigmatizing to people whose brains are just wired differently to yours.

    1. Spencer Hastings*

      Come on yourself — there are people in the comments claiming that they/their husband/etc. can read people’s minds. Do we want this to be a place where pseudoscience is promulgated uncritically?

      1. Come On*

        That’s not what I’m addressing, and I’m not saying ANYONE can read minds. I have no idea how you’re getting that from my comment. I’m saying that there are people whose brains function differently and are affected by different stimuli, and that’s not pseudoscience. Saying that they don’t exist and making blanket claims about them as people is stigmatizing.

        Again, not saying Vanessa’s behavior is okay and I would find it incredibly hard to work with a person who so frequently bursts into tears. I’m saying that people railing on her and saying she’s being manipulative is unnecessary.

    2. connie*

      It’s not stigmatizing to point out that claiming Vanessa is an empath might be unsupportable BS. It’s also not stigmatizing to point out that that kind of behavior has manipulative elements. There is also no proof here that Vanessa has a recognized neurodivergence.

      1. Come On*

        I’m not claiming that Vanessa is neurodivergent or even that she is an “empath”. I’m also not in any way excusing her behavior. It’s unprofessional and inappropriate.

        I’m saying that people commenting that being particularly sensitive to one’s environment “isn’t a real thing” for anyone is dismissive of something that is absolutely real. As someone who has survived trauma and is neurodivergent, reading these comments that this isn’t a real experience people have is absolutely upsetting.

  120. Polar Vortex*

    LW:

    First thought after reading these comments is “The dead bird is not the problem here”. (Because people are getting caught up in that.)

    Your problem is you have an employee that is disrupting the flow of the office on – what sounds like – a very regular basis. People have bad days, I’ve had to accommodate people who had terrible divorces and needed to work but could cry at the drop of a hat – we just booked a room for them for a week. People can be quirky – goodness knows I’m one of those people. People can cry at the drop of a hat for medical reasons – my hormones are wacky, I cry at anything and everything sometimes. But it’s just a quick tear up and then I’m done.

    But you’re using the excuse of “she’s quirky”, “she’s an empath” to discount very real problems. Imagine, instead of a quirky employee that cried at the drop of a hat, she she’s a quirky employee that got angry. Anytime something happened outside of routine, she’d get curt or she’d get loud, or she’d turn bright red and glare at people. Printer broke? Angry. Coworker’s car broke down? Frustrated and curt. Bird hits the window? Raises their voice. And so all coworkers learned to tip toe around her as to not set her off. You’d nip that in the bud right? You’d see quickly that it’s a serious problem to have that kind of negative emotion and disruption.

    Crying is a negative emotion and disruption just like anger is. Crying evokes sympathy though, so you’re not as likely to get your irritation going up in response. You need to view Vanessa in a lens that is full of empathy for Vanessa AND your office. Maybe your team is okay with it – I doubt it – but is the rest of the office? What do they think about Vanessa? What do they think about you and your team that you let this happen on a regular basis? Do they also tip toe around Vanessa so as not to upset her or do they avoid her entirely? Do they stop including her in greater office things because they don’t want to deal with that kind of emotional upheaval on a regular basis?

    Take a hard look, answer those questions, and think. And also think about this from a lens of yourself: are you taking Tim’s suggestions this way because in a sense you’re emotional about the changes that have happened? You went from a small to a large company and team. You now have another manager working with your team. That’s a lot of change and upheaval. Add to that the fact Tim is suggesting you’re not managing an employee well – it can feel like a negative attack on yourself and that can put you in defensive mode.

    FWIW: I have been around people who use sadness as a weapon to manage people around them. It’s just as emotionally tiring and damaging as people who use anger. They may not have realized they were using it as a weapon, they just saw it got them the attention, gentle treatment, tip-toeing around them that they felt they needed/wanted. Vanessa may not realize she’s doing this, but the only way to end this is to do what Tim and Alison say to do.

  121. Dust Bunny*

    I’ve already said way too much here but this occurred to me last night.

    There are quite a few comments on here about how workplaced should “celebrate” employee quirkiness and neurodivergence, although I hate using neurodivergence in this situation (I’m on the autism spectrum).

    1) Nobody is saying that Vanessa is a bad person or that she needs to fundamentally change who she is. They are saying that she is engaging in a behavior that is not appropriate to the workplace, or at least is engaging in it to a degree that is not appropriate to the workplace.

    2) Not all quirkiness is created equal, at least not in a workplace setting. Some varieties work better in some settings than others.

    I work in an academic library, which means I basically get paid to organize things and do tedious little research projects. It’s pretty much my dream job. But my boss cannot “accommodate” my ND and tendency to go down rabbit holes by letting me over-research things and take far too long on projects, because I still have a job to do and slowing to a crawl would foist too much off onto my coworkers.

    She did, however, turn over the department Instagram account to me, which means I get to post a picture of something from our collections and write a little blurb about its history. I get an outlet for my mania for trivia and compulsive need to find out how all things connect to all other things, but in a controlled and productive situation. That is celebrating an employee’s quirkiness and ND, not allowing her to be a distraction and suck up your team’s emotional energy.

    1. MuseumChick*

      I completely agree Dust Bunny. Especially this part “They are saying that she is engaging in a behavior that is not appropriate to the workplace, or at least is engaging in it to a degree that is not appropriate to the workplace.”. Others have mad this point that if we switch out crying for other expressions of strong emotion, yelling for example, no one would say “Well, they just have a strong reaction and don’t mean it so we just work around them.” Yes people cry, yes people get angry, yes emotions are normal, and yes some people cry more easily than other. But the frequency (which the LW makes sound like a lot) and intensity are key.

      Is Vanessa a bad person, probably not! But her *behavior* not work place appropriate in most settings? Yes! The LW has mishandled this in that instead of working with Vanessa to find reasonable ways to manage this they have just allowed it to go on unchecked for years and is now shocked that someone from the outside sees it for what it is.

      1. Crying! At the Disco*

        Hard agree. I’ve worked with a lot of emotionally draining people and that’s really unfair.

    2. Sara without an H*

      +1. I wonder if the Letter Writer has ever considered that what she’s doing isn’t really in Vanessa’s long-term best interests? For example, what would happen if Vanessa wanted to apply for a position in another department and found that her reputation had preceded her?

      There are a lot of reasons for emotionalism, some benign, others not. But I think the Letter Writer has been letting her own need to feel like a supportive manager get in the way of Vanessa’s long-term professional prospects.

    3. Mothman*

      *Snaps for saying you hate using “neuruodivergence” in this situation*

      My brain is unlike the average brain as well, and I really feel like people take folks like us less seriously when things like this are blamed on being neurodivergent! It’s not a free pass to be a jerk! It’s not really a free pass to anything, really, but especially that.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I won’t say it hasn’t made a lot of things in my life harder (I was in school in the 1980s and 1990s when there was zero accommodation or support. My academic career was chaos) but it’s made some things weirdly better.

        I automatically look for all the ways things connect, so I’m pretty much the ideal history person. But there are ways to encourage that that are derailing (allowing me to avoid work by going down rabbit holes), and also ways that are productive (I will definitely be able to find out for you how things that are not obviously related actually are related). That zig-zag reasoning for which autistics are famous/notorious is incredibly useful in historical research.

  122. JustMe*

    So here’s the thing about tears at work: whether the employee means it or not, they can be manipulative.

    I’m not talking those one-off instances where you get a phone call that grandma died, or a work project you’ve been working on for a year and a half suddenly loses its funding and you see all your time and effort go up in smoke. That is 100% normal.

    But I’ve seen in my own work that some employees may cry (again, not necessarily intentionally) in order to deflect blame or criticism. No one can give constructive criticism to a crying person, after all! I don’t think people do this consciously–I think they’ve learned in a weird way that when someone is less-than-happy with them, the crisis can be averted when they cry, and so they are more or less rewarded for it. I think Alison’s advice is spot-on here: she needs to understand that this can have a real effect on other people–not only by distressing them, but also by putting them in a position where they feel they can’t speak to Vanessa or express concerns (even mild ones!) about her work.

    1. Morgan Hazelwood*

      I know you tried not to, but I’m coming in here defensive at your comment. Although, I recognize you’re probably coming from it from a place of having to put up with actually manipulative people.

      I know that everyone is entitled to their feelings, but they should control how they respond to those emotions. And I hope Vanessa gets some therapy on better coping mechanisms. But, her reaction is hers, while management’s reaction is theirs. Some people feel obligated to comfort a crying person (or treat a crying adult as a child), but if asked to ignore it, that’s really the best way of minimizing what is often a very embarrassing situation for the crier.

      I know plenty of people who cry as a stress reaction. I cry 99% more when I’m frustrated than when I’m sad. And you know what’s frustrating? Crying because you’re frustrated. One of my friends cried when I took her to a weightlifting workout class because her body didn’t know how to do those movements, and it worked muscles in ways they weren’t used to being used – as a simple stress reaction.

      Personally, for hard conversations, I’ve been known to take to email so that I can be coherent and fully express my thoughts without the tears getting in the way. I have not found my tears to be ‘rewarded’ by less criticism or lowered expectations. I *have* been told that since I was crying, I must not want (to establish that boundary, that divorce I was asking for, etc), that my tears invalidated my words.

      Some people do cry to deflect. Others punch holes in walls when frustrated. I’m okay with my stress response, even if it is frustrating for both of us.

      1. Morgan Hazelwood*

        Obviously, managers should be working to fix a problem, not just minimize, but those conversations should be private 1-on-1 (or maybe 2-on-1 with HR or etc there)

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, but daily? In meetings?

        Crying when you’re frustrated and stressed is normal, but crying just, like, in meetings is really not. So either Vanessa’s work life is out of whack and that needs to be addressed or she’s crying over way too many things that don’t need to be cried about.

        1. Morgan Hazelwood*

          Yep! Hence me saying that Vanessa clearly needs help and that’s not appropriate.

          The part that sent me off was saying that criers are (probably) inadvertent manipulators who get rewarded for crying. In my experience, my tears prevent me from being able to clearly communicate my point, thus I often need to follow up in email. More often, my tears have been used to invalidate anything I say when I’m crying, which doesn’t feel like a reward.

  123. Yotey*

    I think you are also doing Vanessa a disservice by simply navigating around her and not giving her feedback that this is disruptive.

    Can she fix it in a day? Probably not. But if she is only known as “the office crier” and not for her work, it may be hard for her to move up, to be given genuine feedback, and to progress in her field.

    It may not always be manageable for her, but if she starts looking into tools to help her regulate her emotions now with you as a sympathetic manager it will be easier with the merger and changes that may need to happen in the long run.

  124. Jess*

    Some years ago in my final role as a medical administrator, I called a patient who hadn’t appeared for their important appointment and his wife answered. It was Valentine’s day, and she’d awoken that morning to her spouse of 30 years having passed away in the night next to her.

    In the line of work our small owner operated company provided, patient relationships were very important for outcome and usually long term. My heart broke for her and I stepped away from the front desk to emote privately and gather myself, knowing I could not leave my post to be alone. My colleague noticed my distress and I was telling her quietly what happened when the chief practioner passed by, took one look at me, asked what happened, and then said “get over it”.

    Yes he was a self centered whiny little dramatic prick who thought all his life problems were earth shattering, but I didn’t realize he was so cold hearted and saw these people as income until I began looking closely at him after that response.

    Anyway I left the medical field after that job. Not all medical practioners are created equal and after having worked for a wonderful man for almost 10 years before he retired, I just couldn’t work for people who profit off others loss and misery. Healthcare has not always been what it has become in the last 2 decades since managed care.

  125. Crying! At the Disco*

    Honestly I don’t think I’d be able to work with her. Seeing people cry is hugely triggering for me since one of my parents was severely clinically depressed and I was their caregiver as a child. Seeing that at work would almost make it impossible to come in every day. Just thinking about it now has me feeling some kind of way towards your employee. Vanessa is the only one you’re seeing the behavior, but it probably impacts and distresses your team. I think it was Allison who said on an older post that you’re not doing someone a kindness when you let them think something is okay when it isn’t.

  126. Audrey*

    I am not a crier (in fact, I have a policy that if a workplace brings me to tears, then it’s time to start looking). However, I’m most definitely the type of person who would cry if a bird hit a window and died in front of my eyes. Friendly reminder to everyone that as spring bird migration is beginning, window strikes are preventable and many employees have had success lobbying their building management to install bird-safe window film or decals to prevent bird strikes. I’ve seen these changes take place in large office buildings as well as smaller offices. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. :)

    1. Mothman*

      I had a bird fly into, break, and fall two stories down from my window.

      The window looked into my classroom.

      Full of sixth graders.

      I’ll tell ya, nothing stops a freak out reaction like knowing a bunch of 11 year olds are looking to you for how to respond! It was AWFUL, and I definitely wanted to burst into tears, but I had to go with a “whoa, that was awful, keep working and I’ll call downstairs to have someone check on it…”

      I 100% agree with the decal thing. Birds aren’t the brightest and just think the reflection of the sky is more sky. And any place that says “well, it’s less attractive” should be reminded of how unattractive bloody, broken windows are and how pricey they are to fix…

      (It took them 6 months to fix mine. Because education.)

  127. elle *sparkle emoji**

    I can definitely be an easy crier due to autism and anxiety(so much so that one of my disability accommodations in school was blanket permission to leave the classroom anytime to collect myself). Because of that, I do understand Vanessa but this isn’t the way to handle it. She needs a strategy to handle that, whether that be a little quiet cry moment in the bathroom(a personal fave) or finding a way to hold off tears by distracting from the tearful emotions. It’s not pleasant to work around a crier, but it’s not pleasant to be the constant crier either, I doubt Vanessa really likes this situation.

  128. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

    Mmf, there’s quirky and then there’s ‘crying every single day at work to the point your team desperately tries to avert anything that might possibly set you off’.

    The new company hired a manager, Tim, to work with me who is completely new, not a part of either previous company.

    Yes, that’s probably one of the reasons they hired him, OP. It wouldn’t surprise me if your team has become internally notorious because of Vanessa and this has been fed back to management. Either way, the amount of physical/mental/emotional work you and your team are doing to accommodate Vanessa is extreme and I’m not surprised Tim wants things to change.

    Alison is right that he should avoid the ‘tough love’ approach – unless he wants Vanessa to cry even more, which I don’t think he does – and you should help him talk to Vanessa about better, healthier coping methods. Because this ain’t it.

  129. Missy*

    Vanessa needs to get a grip, constantly bursting into tears would not be acceptable behaviour in most environments let alone in a workplace. Whether or not OP realises it, this behaviour is impacting her team and they probably don’t feel they can raise concerns because of how they have been expected to bend over backwards to accommodate Vanessa in the past. If Vanessa really can’t control this behaviour then she needs to reconsider whether this workplace is right for her.

  130. Sybil Writes*

    My gut reaction to reading the letter is that Vanessa is more of a narcissist than an empath. Consciously or not, she is getting everyone to dance around her emotional displays and perceived sensitivity. This seems more infantile than empathetic to me. Part of the implied message is that she is “more than” others (more sensitive, more needy, more deserving of support or leniency, etc.) At some point, the corollary becomes everyone is “less than”. Not a great situation.
    Compassion fatigue is real; I would be extremely uncomfortable and more likely to leave than allow it to become the inevitable resentment it would with time if I was constantly exposed to someone bursting into tears during meetings or other regular business activities. I would be equally uncomfortable/unwilling to be expected to act as her emotional support or to “just ignore it”. So Vanessa gets to bring her whole self to work, but I have to shut off part of my humanity? Emotional labor is exhausting and should not be casually thrust on an entire group to save one person from doing their own emotional maturing.

  131. Constable George Crabtree*

    I’m speculating here, but I wonder whether “tough love” from Tim isn’t actually tough love, but just a frank and professional conversation that doesn’t spend a bunch of energy emotionally manhandling Vanessa, and that *feels* like tough love to you. Of course, we didn’t hear what he said or know what sort of person he is – maybe he really did mean it in a harsher cracking-down kind of way, which would be a bit much – but be sure you’re delineating “tough” from “professional” in your mind!

  132. Mothman*

    I hate the word “empath” because I think it’s used to excuse all sorts of behaviors…BUT it’s also the word my therapist used to describe the level to which I feel other people’s pain, so let’s go with it.

    The feelings and other stimuli around me overwhelm me on the regular. I have a hard time even going to grocery stores because of all the colors, lights, and, especially, people, as I catch snippets of conversations and see looks on faces and have a very hard time not feeling like everything is terrible.

    I’ve been in the workforce for 21 years. In that time, I have cried in front of others at work four times: when my cat died; when I was unexpectedly fired; when my PTSD was triggered (which has happened more than once, but this time I couldn’t breathe through it); and when I had to meet with my boss to explain I was getting a divorce.

    My natural reaction to a lot of things IS to cry. I had also trained myself to not do it much by the time I became a teenager because I know there’s a time, place, and comfort factor beyond my own. (No, I was never in trouble for crying or anything. This was all me realizing it made other people feel bad to see me cry.)

    The only thing worse than claiming your extreme empathy is an excuse to cry constantly is claiming your extreme empathy is an excuse to make others alter their lives and needs to meet yours. If anything, it you are not, in fact, an empath. If you were, you’d know how you were affecting others.

    If I may be so bold, it seems more manipulative than empathetic. And even if it’s not, this can’t be helping her further her career. Can you imagine being managed by someone who cries every time they have to correct you? Even unintentionally, that screams hostility.

    I don’t think the tough love route will work, but it absolutely does need to be addressed and either a plan needs to be put in place or she needs to find out what’s wrong so she can get proper accommodations. Assuming she’s not doing this intentionally (and I know it sounds mean, but I’ve known a few adults who cried constantly on purpose to get what they wanted), I really do want her to get better. It’s no way to live.

  133. Wait, what?*

    I’m seriously LOLing at everyone saying what Vanessa needs is access to an EAP. Of the dozens of mental health interventions I’ve tried over the decades, my employer’s EAP was hands-down the most useless. This kind of emotional disregulation isn’t likely to be fixed by 6 sessions of CBT and a workbook, or whatever bandaid the EAP is going to dole out.

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