open thread – December 30-31, 2022

by Alison Green on December 30, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Kat A.*

    Why do interviewers ask questions like this? I think it’s ridiculous.

    What animal would you be and why?

    What’s the correct answer? There is no correct answer because it depends on how the interviewer perceives the answer you give.

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      “Homo Sapiens, because I wouldn’t have to change anything , and I’m basically lazy”

    2. Fishsticks*

      Yeah, I don’t know. I’ve fielded so many of those increasingly bizarre “personality” questions that just absolutely have nothing to do with the job whatsoever. My theory on this is that it’s a sneaky way to try and figure out whether or not you’ll be their buddy once you get the job.

      1. MJ*

        Ha. I initially read this as your actual answer to the interviewer. Brilliant.

        It wasn’t until your last question that I realized it was just a reply to OP. :(

    3. The Eye of Argon*

      “A T. Rex, so I could eat interviewers who ask me stupid questions.”

      Is what I’d want to say. I’d have no idea how to answer it seriously, either.

    4. Elle Woods*

      I hate these kinds of questions too.

      From what I’ve read and been told, interviewers ask these questions because they supposedly gain insight into your thinking process and/or attitude.

    5. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Ugh I just had a really great interview. The questions were thoughtful and clearly not googled 5 mins before the appointment except this one question, “What reason would we have for not hiring you?” UH………What?

      I don’t know why. Perhaps he panicked at silence? It was odd and I hope he realized it.

      1. Hexagon*

        Is that supposed to be a really off-putting version of “what are your weaknesses?” I once had a job ask if anything they turned up in the background check would disqualify me, but they had valid reasons for wanting to save time and effort on that. (I said no, which was accurate, and I got hired.)

        1. Sabine the Very Mean*

          I honestly don’t know! All the men in my life said they liked that question because it would let them humble-brag about themselves. Maybe it’s a guy thing?

          I said something like, “uh I guess if the fit isn’t right, if you don’t like my personality, or if you’re aware that tomorrow someone will offer me $200K/year.” My answer was as stupid as the question itself and they better not penalize me.

        2. Marna Nightingale*

          “What are your biggest weaknesses?”
          “Puppies, fancy milk chocolate, 5-year-old cheddar, and Chris Evans.”

          1. Marna Nightingale*

            I have never actually done this but I did once respond to that question with “Actually, one of my biggest strengths is knowing when to shut up” and that went okay.

          3. I’m screaming inside too*

            “Kittens, McDonald’s bacon, egg and cheese biscuits, and well-written murder mysteries.”

          4. GingerNP*

            “I tend to be pretty straightforward and, as I’m sure you know, that doesn’t always go so well for women, since we’re generally expected to be… softer in our communication.”

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Oh that’s a terrible question. I think your answer was just fine, I especially like the twist ending (“you realized you won’t be able to afford me, I’m too valuable”).

        I had its sibling, “What’s the one reason we should hire you?” – keep in mind this was after an entire day of on-site interviews with various people covering a wide range of my experience that might be valuable to them… I mean, if they phrased it like, “Give us a final recap of your best selling points” or “the elevator pitch of your candidacy” because they wanted that, then I could do it. But the way it was asked, I didn’t hear it like that.
        All I could think was like gee if you haven’t figured out why you might want to hire me, I doubt I’m going to clinch it in my response now.

      3. nm*

        Them: what reason would we have for not hiring you?

        Fantasy version of Me: the reason is that your interview questions fail to identify good candidates :)

    6. Alpaca Bag*

      My true answer that I wouldn’t share in an interview: An alpaca, because they’re cute, kind of skittish until they get to know you, and loyal to others in their group.

      1. the cat's ass*

        “A cat.” And then slowly shove a bunch of papers of the interviewer’s desk. And then get escorted out, i suppose. Great way to do an interview at a job you don’t want?

        1. Sabine the Very Mean*

          Slowly at first while maintaining intense eye contact and then furiously and then total stillness.

        2. Meep*

          As a literal cat who has knocked things off of coworkers’ desks (jokingly), this is the only way to respond. Cats are great. None of that love everyone who looks at them B.S. dogs have going for them.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Whenever a maintenance person comes into my apartment, one of my cats immediately twines around their legs and offers his belly for tummy rubs. Hilariously, he only does that for complete strangers; if I try to rub his tummy he gets cranky.

          2. JustaTech*

            I have a friend who, in the middle of an interview said “oh, kitty!” as the office cat walked past the conference room.

            He got the job.

            1. CatMintCat*

              I was once waiting for an interview in a small office, which was just a couple of rooms in the owner’s home. The family cat came in, inspected me, then curled up on my lap and purred. Apparently, I had the job from that moment.

              It was a good one. They had a dog, too.

      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        See my honest answer would be “a cat so I can sleep 20 hours out of 24 and nobody would object” but I don’t think that’s a good job interview answer.

        A butterfly so I can eat my weight in sugary nectar all day?

        1. MI Dawn*

          LOL…I’d be a cat, too, because I’m very curious (aka nosy) about things and like to snuggle up to people. But yeah, that wouldn’t go over well in an interview.

          My other answer would be a mongoose, because I love the story of Rikki-Tikki-Tavi.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Mine would probably be a cat because they are independent, picky, stubborn and hate the cold, but that wouldn’t be very interview appropriate either.

    7. Watry*

      I once filled out an application that asked me to choose what color I was from a list. It did not get better from there. Still finished it, since I was on unemployment and running out of open positions.

    8. Me ... Just Me*

      I have asked this exact question and to me it’s a way to gauge soft skills. Can this person relate to others on a personal level and also roll with new/surprising tasks? Unless the job is entirely for a position that does not interact with others in any way, I’m going to be leary of a person who is truly stumped by this question as it’s kind of a softball question (it doesn’t have a “correct” answer, after all). Of course, in response, I share my own choice of animal and take it as an opportunity to share something of myself that is fairly benign. I work in healthcare and soft skills are very important. Honestly, you cannot judge clinical skills from a sit-down interview and so rely heavily on previous work experience and what little you can glean about the person during the interview.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        I really think you should re-think your approach. There are plenty of ways to gauge someone’s people skills without asking questions that throw most people off and don’t relate to the work at all. I’d wonder if my interviewer even understood the job herself if she asked me such a question. Like, “uh, I thought this was an interview for a nursing job…?”

        “Tell me about a time you were dealing with a angry/aggressive/defensive patient and how you handled it” seems so much better. “Tell me about your most difficult patient experience” is another.

        1. Observer**

          Also questions like “what do you find the most challenging aspect of this kind of job?” “what do you find most rewarding about this kind of job?”, “what do you wish that all patients understood about this job?”, “What would advise all patients to do before they come in to our facility?”. Add “and why” to all of them. These are questions that can tell you a LOT about how people relate to others, especially patients. Not just what they say, but how.

          I could think of a lot of different questions, but they would be more specific to the role.

          In any case, these are the kinds of questions that actually give someone insight into thinking RELATED TO THE JOB, unlike “what kind of animal would you be?” Like if someone tells you that they want to be a butterfly because they like beautiful things, what does that tell you?

          1. Lana Kane*

            I’n not advocating for or against the question, but the answer itself isn’t the point of asking it. It’s how the candidate pivots from standard questions to unexpected ones.

            1. Observer**

              But the thing is that you simply don’t learn anything relevant from that. Unless part of the job is dealing with TRULY irrelevant queries that need to be answered on a regular basis.

            2. Kay*

              No – what this question does is to see how the candidate reacts to employers who have poor interview practices.

        2. Me ... Just Me*

          Nobody. And I mean nobody is going to get those standard questions wrong. Seriously. If anybody comes in and can’t relate a “time” that they had an interpersonal conflict that they handles well or when then worked collaboratively with someone, or …

          Who get’s those questions wrong? In real life. With a degree and a some sort of work history?

          The animal question is designed to get people out of interview mode and to elicit a personal (or at least more genuine) response so that I get an inkling as to the actual person behind the pat answers.

          1. fencer*

            I interview A LOT and first, people do have bad answers to those questions all the time and at all professional levels. Second, those questions aren’t supposed to have ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ answers (aside from the extreme examples of course). They’re supposed to give you insight into how the person thinks and behaves. If you’re interviewing effectively you don’t ever need to ask a BS question like the animal one to learn about the actual person and it will turn off good candidates.

          2. Observer**

            The animal question is designed to get people out of interview mode and to elicit a personal (or at least more genuine) response so that I get an inkling as to the actual person behind the pat answers.

            You keep on saying that, but it’s simply NOT true. And even if you DO get some information, it’s still generally not relevant. Someone loves StartTrek / the MCU / Some other fantasy world? Someone loves beautiful stuff? Someone likes adventure? What relevance do ANY of these things have to what you need in a healthcare type of role?

            And, yes, people “tell on themselves” all the time. Yes, even people with work history and a degree. But, as noted, there are also a lot of other questions you could ask that are not “standard” but are far more relevant. And you might want to check your biases here – the degree has absolutely NO relevance to this issue.

          3. Sabine the Very Mean*

            You’re just wrong, Me…Just Me. And you’re showing your candidates more about yourself with the question and with this reasoning here.

          4. Quinalla*

            People actually give telling answers to those types of questions quite often. And if you are looking to get the person out of interview mode, again there are other ways to do that. Ask about a hobby/volunteer/etc. item on their resume. Hell, ask if they have fun plans for the weekend. That’s a question will also throw some people off, but at least it is a genuine question that after a bit they can probably recalibrate and answer. I am glad I’ve never been asked one of these oddball questions, I’d do my best to answer if I was, but I would be unimpressed and might even follow up with “Why do you ask?” Worst I’ve gotten is the greatest weakness question.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              I’d be careful about “fun plans for the weekend” questions, since honestly answering that type of question often reveals information on protected characteristics(such as if the interviewee is married, has children, is pregnant, is gay, or is Jewish, off the top of my head). I’d stick with stuff on the resume.

          5. SQL Coder Cat*

            Back in my (thankfully long ago) call center days, I had a supervisor tell me that my spirit animal was a sloth- because I seemed sort of slow but was actually really smart. I did not take it as a compliment, and was not at all surprised when he was fired a few months later for sexually harassing another team member. So my initial reaction to this would be horror.
            Once I reminded myself that this was intended to be a softball question, I would probably go with elephant. Why? Because their herds are supportive of each other. Unsaid would be the part where they are total bada$$es who will kill a woman, show up at her funeral, beat up her corpse, and tear down her house. To this day I really want to know what that woman did.

          6. LilPinkSock*

            Plenty of people get those standard questions wrong—I’d be very surprised if somebody in hiring/recruiting had never experienced a candidate whose “tell me about time when” response just wasn’t a good match for the role, team, or organization. Having been on both sides of the interview table within the last 18 months, I definitely recommend you revisit your methods for discerning “soft skills”.

      2. Observer**

        If this is the best gauge you have of someone’s ability to deal with the unexpected and to relate to people, you are DEFINITELY not getting the best candidates. I work with a lot of people whose position absolutely require this pair of skills who would NOT respond well to this kind of question.

        Also, I strongly suspect that this question went on the Cons side of the Pros and Cons list for strong candidates. Because, to be honest, this does nothing to make me confident of the competence of the interviewer.

      3. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I’m sorry! I just am weird and get thrown into social anxiety by questions that have no ‘ right’ answer but you’re judging me on. Oddly I’m ok with client care because there’s a real reason people are asking ( reassurance, want a ‘ professionals’ opinion) but random chaos? (Literally dies)

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I don’t have social anxiety, but I would not deal with this well during a job interview. Interviews are high-pressure situations, and there are so so many weird meanings that could be read into the question. If I say beaver, is that sucking up? If I say cat, will they think I’m lazy? If I say rabbit, will they think I’m skittish and can’t handle difficult clients? What if I choose an animal the interviewer hates, and they judge me for it?

          If you want to see how someone does in a situation, it’s much better to drill down into exactly how they’ve handled that situation in the past, or do some sort of exercise where the interviewee can demonstrate the skill.

          1. Giant Kitty*

            Exactly this. I’m neurodivergent so my mind would be spinning off in a million directions at once, both trying to figure out why they were asking & what they thought they were judging & what they wanted to see as it filtered through every animal I’ve ever heard of weighing the pros & cons of every answer. And none of that would reflect on my ability to do/not do the job in question.

      4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I agree with Sabine, that is not a good way to gauge a person’s soft skills. The interview itself creates a very specific context where “What is the right answer” is a valid response.

        You yourself demonstrate this, as you say you would be “leary of a person who is truly stumped by this question.” You consider it to be a reasonable, softball question. Many people find it offputting and strange, yet *you* have a power in the situation that’s unique to the interviewing situation.

        Soft skills aren’t going to be figured out via a specific question. You get them from interacting with them throughout the interview process.

        1. Lana Kane*

          “You consider it to be a reasonable, softball question. Many people find it offputting and strange, yet *you* have a power in the situation that’s unique to the interviewing situation.” Well said. The interviewer is bringing their own sets of norms and biases and applying it across the board, in a high stakes situation.

      5. Generic Name*

        If you/your company care at all about diversity, I would seriously reconsider this approach. This question could be problematic for neurodivergent people. And frankly, being able to answer an off the wall question isn’t necessarily an effective screen for people with good social skills.

        1. Observer**

          You are so right that being able to answer of the wall – and totally irrelevant questions is not an effective screen for good social skills.

          When I’m at the doctor, I don’t need someone who is a scintillating conversationalist. Nor do I need someone who can chat about various forms of flora and fauna. I need someone who knows their stuff cold, knows what the limits of their knowledge are, cares about the humanity of their patients, and has some sense of how their words are likely to land. You are not likely to get ANY indication of any of this from a question about white kind of tree, plant, animal, etc. you would be.

          I have no doubt that the doctor who told me that it was just as well that I lost my pregnancy because it made things easier for him could have answered your question quite well. But he had no respect for me as a person- he also apparently thought that I had no brains.

        2. Mockingjay*

          I find it problematic for all kinds of people, including myself. How are you going to get an accurate assessment of my skills and approaches to problem solving and customer/client relations out of a randomly picked animal?

          Quite frankly, I’ve never considered what kind of animal I would be since I was a kid, other than 1) wanting to trade places with my spoiled rotten dogs (because they live the GOOD LIFE) or 2) fantasizing about being the wolf alpha’s mate during late night reading of trashy shifter romances from my e-library service. (Hey, they’re fun to read while I’m waiting for my book club selection to ship.) As a serious interview question – not.

          1. Employee of the Bearimy*

            Oh, man, I’ve totally gotten into those trashy shifter romances, too. They’re TERRIBLE and I just love them.

      6. Michelle Smith*

        I don’t want to be an animal and don’t have an answer to this question. At all. I still relate well enough to people and roll with new work tasks just fine.

      7. Irish Teacher*

        I’ve never interviewed, so I may be completely wrong, but I’m not sure if that question is really likely to give you an answer to that. It’s the kind of question some people love and think about for fun and wouldn’t be at all surprised by because they have an answer from various online quizzes they’ve done for fun and that other people would find weird and a bit childish and something they’ve never thought about.

        I suspect the main thing you’d learn from whether somebody finds this question easy or difficult is whether they like internet quizzy thought experiments.

        I also think that what is a softball question varies widely from person to person. Generally the softball questions are the ones I find most difficult. Not that one specifically. I’d find it odd and probably assume the interviewer couldn’t think of something to ask and just asked the first question that came to mind or something, but I wouldn’t find it especially difficult. However, things like “did you have a long journey?” can confuse me, because I start wondering if say an hour counts as long, whereas ask me difficult questions about the job itself and I’ll be away with it.

        I’m not saying you shouldn’t ask this question or it’s not a good one. I don’t know enough about interviewing from the point of the interviewer to really be able to judge that, but I would be careful about assuming that somebody flubbing a “softball question” means they are not good with people or don’t have good soft skills as it likely does not mean that. Most likely, it simply means that what is a softball question to you is not to them. It that joke about how a question is “only easy if you know the answer.”

        Nor do I think that question really indicates whether a person can relate to others or not. A person could be very good at relating to others with casual questions like that and yet unable to handle deeper issues. In fact, somebody who is poor at relating to others might well have built up a selection of conversation pieces like that that have easy to learn off answers and yet have no idea what to say or how to react to say somebody being upset. Equally, somebody might have very good social skills but be confused by a question like that, possibly due to literalism or because they were raised in a different culture where perhaps such thought experiments aren’t as common (I don’t know if this is a culturally based thing but it feels like it might be) or because they are nervous in an interview and overthinking the questions.

      8. I edit everything*

        I would not consider this a soft ball question at all. My brain would absolutely start whirring gears, over-analyzing every possible answer for what you might take from it. Like, “if I say a monkey because I’ve always wanted to be good at climbing trees, will she think I’m a goof-off? OK, can’t use that. How about a dog? They’re fluffy and people like them, but calling someone a dog is a bad thing, so I shouldn’t call myself one. Cats sleep too much. I love owls, but I don’t want to cast myself as someone who’d be good on the night shift….” and on and on until my brain freezes up completely.

        I truly don’t think this question does what you want it to.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, I could definitely field this question in a social situation. Maybe even a cheesy icebreaker at work. Asking it in an interview puts way too much pressure to come up with a “right” answer and opens the door for a lot of biases.

      9. Hen in a Windstorm*

        Nobody is “stumped” by this question. They think it is inappropriate and unprofessional. I’m leery of a person who doesn’t know how to interview well enough to know that an oddball question is not how you gauge if someone can roll with a new task. You sound like you have no idea how to gauge soft skills and so you glommed onto “this one weird trick” you read on the internet.

        I’m even more horrified you work in clinical skills. Alienating patients by asking them useless questions is not a “skill” nor should you be seeking it. You can absolutely judge those skills from a sit down interview. That’s exactly what the 10 minute interview with a physician is, and I can definitely judge a doctor or nurse in that brief interaction, so it’s pretty shocking to hear you admit that you can’t.

        1. Observer**

          I’m leery of a person who doesn’t know how to interview well enough to know that an oddball question is not how you gauge if someone can roll with a new task

          Yes. And the doubling down is another red flag. It doesn’t sound like they’ve actually paid attention to what anyone is saying. Talk about being able to roll with the unexpected.

          Alienating patients by asking them useless questions is not a “skill” nor should you be seeking it

          Exactly. It’s also concerning that this poster doesn’t seem to realize how alienating it can be.

        2. Myrin*

          Oh, I would absolutely be stumped by this question! I already didn’t find these types of quizzes oustandingly fun in the magazines I read as a young teenager, but at least there I only had to answer questions actually relating to my personality/behaviour and the animal would be the end result – having to come up with all of that myself in a matter of seconds? Forget it.

        3. Old Battle Axe*

          Thank you, thank you, thank you. If a person cannot judge clinical skills via interview, that person should not be interviewing. Health care is such a weird beast like this, as this happens in performance reviews as well. They gather 360 evals that are more popularity assessment than anything else, and completely fail to evaluate actual performance. This has been a consistent theme throughout my 20 year career.

      10. Cordelia*

        seems like its not a “softball” question for everyone though, given the responses in the comments. You can ask better questions that get into how the person responds to new and surprising tasks, by asking for examples of how they have responded to new and surprising tasks. Or by asking how they would respond in particular novel clinical scenarios. Or for examples of how they use their personality in their work, how they relate to their patients on a personal level while remaining professional, etc etc. Soft skills are definitely important, but finding out whether someone would like to be a cat doesn’t help you assess these.

        1. Observer**

          Soft skills are definitely important, but finding out whether someone would like to be a cat doesn’t help you assess these.

          Well, cats like to sleep, so now @JustMe “knows” that this person likes to sleep. And that’s not something that that a lot of prospective employers like. So maybe there is a “right” or “wrong” or maybe “not right” answer. On the other hand, if you say that there REALLY is no “wrong” answer, then what are you really finding out?

        2. Me ... Just Me*

          And, you think that anyone is going to say, “Oh, I hate change” in an interview where it’s known that things change twenty times a day? Obviously, the question isn’t for every situation, but I have found it useful in the past and so won’t disqualify it as a potential question in the future.

          I guess I could jump up during the interview and throw down a Resusci-Anne mannequin and make the person role play an emergent medical situation if the animal question is too hard …

          1. Cordelia*

            oh its not too hard – I’d just say “cat”, and then ask you if that was the right answer, and what you were hoping to learn by asking the question. And if you weren’t able to give any better reasons than you have done in the comments, I’d know that I wouldn’t want to work for you, so I guess it is a useful question after all.
            You seem to find it a ridiculous idea, but I have indeed been asked in an interview to talk through what I would do in an emergent medical situation, and I think the interviewers got a much better picture of my clinical skills and my fitness for the position than they would have done by knowing that I’d like to be a cat.

          2. Giant Kitty*

            And pray tell, what answer to “what animal do you want to be” is the one that successful alerts you it to the fact that this interviewee is actually resistant to change?

            More importantly, why do you think ANY answer would successfully alert you to the fact that this interviewee is resistant to change?!

          3. Irish Teacher.*

            Couldn’t you ask people about a change they experienced in their previous role? I know plenty of people who will say in all kinds of contexts, “I’m not resistant to change, but…” and then go on to criticise every change they’ve ever dealt with. I don’t know if they would do it in an interview situation or not, but it seems likely and certainly, I would think you’d learn more about a person’s attitude to change by asking them about changes to the field you work in than by asking what animal they are.

            I also don’t think that anybody is objecting that the question is “too hard.” More that it’s probably giving you a less than accurate picture of people’s social skills, making some people look better than they are and others look worse.

            Personally, I don’t think it’s helpful to think of questions in terms of easy and hard as every question will be really easy to somebody and really hard to others. So it’s not a matter of trying to find questions that aren’t too hard. It’s about not assuming people have poor social skills simply because of their response to any one question or thinking of any question as a “softball” that nobody will have problems with.

          4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            Examples of questions that would help an interviewer understand whether someone can roll with changes:

            “Tell me about a time that you had to navigate simultaneous (or successive) changes in the workplace. Especially over a short time, say a four hour period.”

            “We’re a workplace where things change at least 20 times a day. Could you tell me about your experience handling a similar day to day?”

            I expect @Me … Just Me and anyone who (silently?) agrees with them will say that people can lie/make up an answer…but then, that’s true of any answer. So, if you assume people are lying or have stock answers prepared for all questions, why bother interviewing at all?

            The ability to roll with a question that makes no sense in context is different from the ability to deal with an everchanging bureacratic process, a patient who suddenly goes into an emergency situation, or other changing situations.

          5. SofiaDeo*

            You don’t need to be dramatic/weird as an interviewer. In my decades and decades of health care, I have never heard interviewer questions like this, except at the facilities the company I worked for was brought in to “fix”. Your doubling down/being dramatic to defend it, has me agreeing with others, I most definitely would not want to work for you. This is supposedly a *job interview* you are conducting. There are numerous ways to assess candidates without asking them questions totally unrelated to “are you a good fit for this position.”

          6. Observer**

            but I have found it useful in the past

            What that tells me is that you are not a good interviewer and I question the quality if your hires.

            I guess I could jump up during the interview and throw down a Resusci-Anne mannequin and make the person role play an emergent medical situation if the animal question is too hard

            In other words you haven’t actually read anything anyone has said. Nor do you intend to. Because no one has claimed that the question is “hard”. But they HAVE given you some really good suggestions 0n how to assess the things you are looking for, but instead you’ve jumped to a dramatic and obviously ridiculous “alternative”.

            In fact, this whole exchange is a perfect example of what people are getting at. If you told about this exchange in an interview, no matter how you spun it, I would know that you actually handle both change and critiques of your work very, very poorly.

      12. Cyndi*

        Nobody being interviewed for a job will ever believe there is “no correct answer” to a question, even if you tell them so outright. You’re still making a major decision about their livelihood based in part on how they respond.

        1. Chilipepper Attitude*

          This, exactly this! You are picking me for this job based in part on how I answer. And I’m not getting out of interview mode or giving you an honest answer. I’m giving you an answer based on what I think you want to hear based on our convo so far because this is such a useless question that I don’t know what else to do with it. I’m not thrown, but I am wondering is you run a professional office or a hellmouth or a banana cracker factory.

          I think what you meant is, I don’t know how to do small talk or have a regular conversation with ppl so I use this ice breaker in my interviews.

      13. Meep*

        Echoing others but from a different perspective. This is a really ableist question to ask!

        I would be stumped and unable to answer because I would be sitting there unable to answer without feeling like I would be severely judged. Why? Because I have c-PSTD that you just triggered.

        1. Bert'n'Tom by the fire*

          If you feel that your answer to that question would make you “severely judged,” wouldn’t that be the case with any interview question, at any interview? Sorry, I’m trying to get a sense of how a question, be it that one or any other, could be phrased to not trigger you – how could an interviewer be sensitive to that to make you as comfortable as possible, while still trying to elicit information to judge whether you are the correct person for the job? Is it the fact that it’s a question about animals that’s triggering, or that it asks you to use your imagination, or just that it’s a question about yourself at a job interview? What could a sensitive interviewer do to help you in this situation–would a trigger warning help, for example, or telling you that you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to or that there is no “right” answer? I certainly wouldn’t want to traumatize you in a job interview!

          1. SofiaDeo*

            IMO it’s more about “I thought this was a job interview, this person is wackadoo, I need to get out ASAP”

      14. MeepMeep123*

        So if I say that I want to be a sea cucumber because sea cucumbers never have to go through job interviews, what does that say about me as a person?

      15. Nightengale*

        I’m a pediatrician whose patient parents routinely rate me very highly on communication skills. . . and I am completely stumped by this question. It requires a completely different kind of thinking and communication than I use to relate to my patients and their families. (Possibly because I, most of my patients and many of their families are all neurodivergent?) And is completely different from the unexpected questions my patients and families ask me or unexpected things that occur during visits. I am not stumped when a patient starts throwing toys or removes all their clothing, and true medical emergencies are rare in my field but I am prepared for those as well. I have no idea how to answer the animal question.

    9. Keymaster of Gozer*

      I’ve always answered ‘Dragon’ due to a habit of hoarding old technology and breathing fire at people who annoy me.

      As to why? It’s the mark of an interviewer who doesn’t know what they’re doing. See also ‘if you could be inside a book which one?’

    10. RJ*

      I got this question at an interview once and pulled a 30 Rock reference by stating ‘an eagle with the head of a bear’. The interviewer had absolutely no response to this and immediately moved back to technical questions. She was thrown off.

    12. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      “Hm, that’s an interesting question. Could you tell me more about what you mean and why you’re asking?”

      In my head, if this question came from a potential boss, grandboss, or someone else in my reporting line, this would go into the “consider declining to move forward” pile.

    13. Mark*

      Although I would never ask that in an interview, I did ask that when I was a volunteer with the probation department juvenile division. When he answered with lion, I asked why. The response was something to the effect of, “They are powerful, strong, and feared. Nobody messes with them. They can do whatever they want to someone.” I remember it making me worry about his past & future; you don’t feel that way without something having happened. The response came immediately to mind when, years later, I found out he was in jail for the r-word.

      1. Artemesia*

        which is exactly why these questions are a trap — there IS a right answer — in your case, it wasn’t ‘lion’ — and there will be judgment — but it is not obvious what a right answer would be.

      1. Pennyworth*

        I might go with nudibranch, because they are so beautiful and the interviewer probably would have no idea what they are. The are resourceful, and do things like harvest cells from jellyfish to arm themselves against predators.

    15. Chirpy*

      My boss asked this once and I said narwhal. He was confused. “You want to be a whale?”

      No, I want to be the unicorn of the sea. Apparently he’s not as imaginative as some of my previous coworkers who lthought narwhals were cool, haha.

        1. Chirpy*

          I’m glad you enjoyed. They’ve been my favorite sea animal since I had to do a report on them in 4th grade.

      2. nm*

        I used to do speech and debate in school so my mom got roped into being a volunteer judge at some events (where i was not competing). English is not her first language and she has never had much interest in animals. So when someone gave a speech about narwhals she was convinced it was made up nonsense and gave them the lowest score.

        1. Chirpy*

          Oof. But I kind of get it, most of Europe didn’t know they existed back in the day so Scandinavians made pretty good money for several hundred years in the Middle Ages selling “unicorn horns”.

    16. Michelle Smith*

      Is that a field-specific thing? I’ve never heard of this question, but I’ve only worked in relatively conservative fields.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I work in tech, which definitely isn’t a conservative field, and they’ve dropped all “thought questions” from interviews. It turns out that the ability to solve puzzles involving burning ropes or to estimate how many tennis balls would fit into a bus don’t actually correlate at all with job performance.

        If you want to find skilled, qualified people, you should keep the questions grounded in those skills and qualifications.

    17. TacoBelljobfar*

      The correct answer is they don’t know how to interview. I got asked for a position at a well known ice cream parlor. “If you were an ice cream flavor what flavor would you be?”

      1. Pippa K*

        Even in the context of an actual ice cream parlor I’d never be able to answer this one with a straight face because of that movie line (Wayne’s World, maybe?): “If he were an ice cream flavor, he’d be pralines and dick.”

    18. Audiophile*

      I still remember getting this question once during a face-to-face interview (back when in-person interviewing was more common). I recall laughing, then staring blankly at the interviewer before asking her to repeat the question.

      This is such a bad question.

    19. Girasol*

      A friend once told me, as we walked into the woods, that it would be great to be that little lizard that could explore in all the interesting places that we can’t. Then he said, “But I can’t say that at work when they ask what animal we’d like to be. At work all the women are supposed to be cats and all the men are supposed to be predators.” Someone gave us that icebreaker question at my workplace a week later and darned if he wasn’t spot on. All the women named cats. Most of the men named predators and those who didn’t were laughed at. If anyone ever asked me that question again, I think I’d tell that story and leave it hanging there. (In the same meeting a coworker leaned over and whispered, “I want someone to ask, “What’s your name, what’s your department, and what’s your favorite petrochemical.”)

      1. sundae funday*

        Oh dang, I’m a woman and my answer is cat (specifically a pampered house cat) because I want to sleep all day and have no responsibilities, but I really don’t think that’s what I should tell employers!

      2. Chilipepper Attitude*

        THIS is the best answer. Tell the story of the workplace that used this as an ice breaker, gendered answers complete with laughter at “wrong” answers. THEN say, Hm, that’s an interesting question. Could you tell me more about what you mean and why you’re asking?

    20. Cellyn*

      A cross between an elephant and a koala bear. Why? Because I have all of the “relephant koala-fications!” Cringe.

    21. RagingADHD*

      Most interview questions don’t have a “correct” answer. An interview isn’t a school exam. Questions like this are supposed to be a way to get you talking about something isn’t dry or serious, so the interviewer can see a little more about your personality.

      It’s a silly question. It is more likely to make people feel confused or awkward than put them at ease. Most people who use questions like this don’t really understand what purpose it serves, either – they’re just taking bad advice.

      But it’s bad because it’s too weird, not because it’s subjective. Job interviews are always subjective, because nearly everything about being a “good fit” on a team is subjective.

    22. sundae funday*

      “a house cat so that I could sleep all day and have no responsibilities.”

      But something tells me that’s not the response employers are looking for….

    23. A.D. Kay*

      Recently I was interviewing with a team of three developers and fielded their questions handily–then at the end, one of them asked “If you could have any superpower, what would you pick?” I was annoyed!

      1. Kay*

        I would love to sigh, hang my head with a shake and say dejectedly “And here I thought things were going so well”.

    24. WoodswomanWrites*

      I was on an interview team where we had collectively come up with a solid list of questions. My colleague who was new to interviewing added the question about what animal the candidate would be. The team manager included it, and I silently cringed every time my colleague asked it during interviews. We ended up hiring someone who was stellar, but they later mentioned being baffled by that question.

    25. DannyG*

      Some version of that question has been around for a long time. I first ran into it during a managerial development seminar maybe 30 years ago. We were asked that question then had to share in the small group breakouts. My answer then, and what I have been prepared to use if ever asked again, was a red-tailed hawk. Loves to fly (I was working on my private pilot’s license at the time), not flashy like a falcon or eagle, committed to family. The person leading the seminar analyzed the responses, some kind of pseudoscientific psycobabble, with my response indicating that I was steady and reliable. Whatever.

    26. Zzzzzz*

      Wow, timing! Even Barbara Walters, may she RIP, couldn’t resist asking this stupid question– of Katherine Hepburn, of all people:

      “After being widely mocked for asking actress Katherine Hepburn what kind of tree she would want to be, Walters defended herself by noting it was Hepburn who made the comparison. Walters simply asked, “What kind of tree?”

      https://www.npr.org/2022/12/30/172253629/barbara-walters-dead

  2. Texan In Exile*

    Hello to the two women behind me in the crosswalk in Chicago on Wednesday night!

    I wasn’t intentionally eavesdropping, but I overheard one of them talk about how she had tried to negotiate so OF COURSE I had to turn around and say, “Ask A Manager! Ask A Manager dot com! She gives great advice on this!”

    And the other woman said, “Yes! I love her blog!”

    Alison – you are becoming a household name.

    3. Mimmy*

      Haha, even my husband says, “go to your ‘Ask A Manager’ site” when I tell him about a job search quandary!

    5. Avery*

      Hah! I’m a Chicagoan myself, good to know there are others of us out there! I’ve plugged the blog a few times myself, but usually to Internet friends rather than in-person.

      1. Pennyworth*

        I used to refer people to AAM from other advice columns – Dear Abbey and Miss Manners in particular.

    6. Silly Janet*

      Amazing. I met someone who knew was just as fervent a believer in AMA as me and I got really excited.

    9. New Mom*

      I would excitedly tell everyone about AMA but now that I semi regularly ask questions on Fridays I’m paranoid haha. Who is reading? Do they know it’s me? Anyone else?

      1. Captain Vegetable (Crunch Crunch Crunch)*

        Yes! I really think my sister could benefit from this place, but I suspect she’d recognize my user name… and I used to complain about her here when we worked together. I just console myself that she doesn’t really take advice in general so I’m not keeping her back by not suggesting the site!

    10. KuklaRed*

      Absolutely! I mention to the people on my team at work. My daughter has been following for years and she tells all of her friends and co-workers about the site too. AskAManager is the gold standard!

  4. Ahhh*

    We’ve all read the story about getting a job offer but seeing if the current boss will match it.

    What about the opposite. I started a new job a few months ago. It’s an understatement that I’m struggling and that this is a so so fit. For legitimate reasons I’m surprised I haven’t been put on PIP. However everyone I am speaking with said I’m doing great. :-l

    I actually really like the job, the challenge. However after a rough week, on a whim I applied to a position I saw online. Image my shock that they offered me the job.

    Would it be unprofessional to go to my current boss, not to match the offer but say… I love it here and want to stay, I’m catching on slowly but I’m struggling. If you don’t think this is a good fit for for the department I’d like to know your thoughts as o have another job offer.

    AAM Thoughts?

    1. rayray*

      I’m always tell anyone, look out for yourself first and do what is best for you. If this new offer looks like a better fit, make the move. You can certainly talk to your boss and have that conversation that you’ve struggled to catch on with this job. It’s hard to really say without being in your shoes and knowing exactly what is going on and the dynamic between you and your current boss, but I think you could definitely have that conversation.

      1. New Mom*

        I’d say have the convo but don’t mention the job offer. You’ll probably get the answer you are looking for.

        1. Tio*

          Yeah, this. What would the purpose of telling them you have a new offer do? You can ask them if they think you’re catching on, ask them for specific goals to set to measure progress, but telling them you have another job offer will only put them on edge. You really need to decide if you think you’re doing well and enjoy this job, and move on from there.

    2. Marna Nightingale*

      I feel like going to the boss would be fraught and could go any number of ways. But, since you are enjoying the challenge, and your coworkers feel like you’re doing really well, if you would RATHER stay where you are, there might be a middle way:

      Is there one of those people who say you’re doing great that you feel you can go to and say “So, I actually need a straight answer to this: AM I doing great, or are you being encouraging? Not because I object to you being encouraging, but because I feel like I’m really struggling, and I’m not sure if that’s normal new-kid stuff or something else. So, do you think I’m struggling, or am I just stretching?”

    3. A Penguin!*

      I think you can safely say all of that *except* the ‘have another job offer’ bit. Right or wrong, some bosses will put that into the ‘already has one foot out the door’ bucket, and after only a few months I don’t think you can safely know how the boss will interpret it.

      4. I edit everything*

        This is what I was going to say, too. That conversation is worth having, with or without the job offer, I think.

    4. Marissa*

      Your own desire to not feel like you’re struggling and a so-so fit is a valid reason to take another offer. Some people enjoy jobs with steep learning curves, and some people don’t. Even if your boss says you’re perfectly on track, that doesn’t negate your own level of comfort!

    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      It wouldn’t be unprofessional. I question the use though. After all, they’ve said you’re doing great. If they were lying, why would they tell you the truth now?

      The thing is that it’s common for someone to struggle to learn a new job. So, it’s reasonable for you to feel like you’re struggling and for them to feel like you’re learning. Your best bet is to ask someone you trust about your performance without bringing up the new job.

      But otherwise, do what’s best for you.

    6. Panda*

      I took a new job over six months ago and still feel like I’m struggling but it’s getting a little better. The people I support say I’m doing great as well. I know it takes a year or two to really catch on to a new job, depending on how complex it is, so maybe thats why? I know when I received promotions at my old job, I felt like I was drowning for the first year trying to figure everything out.

      1. Jet*

        Also started a few months ago and feel like I’m struggling, but everyone is saying I’m doing great. Some jobs take a looooong time to learn.

        You said you really like the job and the challenge, so I think stick it out! If you are focusing only on what the worst things that could happen there, might I encourage you to spend an equal amount of time focusing on the best things that could happen there?

        You got this job, and you just got a job that you applied to, so it seems like you’ll be able to get another job if this one really doesn’t work out.

    7. Samwise*

      Find out if you actually are doing as so so as you think you are. Lots of suggestions in the comments.

      Jobs with steep learning curves: I love these. Otherwise I get bored. Typically it’s 6-8 months of “crap, I am never going to get the hang of this,” 2 years of “I am so freakin good at this,” followed by a long time of “damn I’m good but what made me think I really understand it?”

      When I get back to “I’m so freakin good at this and nothing surprises me”, time for a new steep learning curve job.

  5. Rayray*

    I’ve been job searching for a while. I’m currently working in the mortgage industry which is seriously suffering. I’m trying to make a shift and find something I’ll actually like. I have applied at a company my friend works at and the recruiter told her they loved my resume just not for the particular position I applied for. I’m keeping an eye on their job board, but I’m wondering if maybe I could reach out to a company recruiter on LinkedIn or something to chat about potential roles. Good or bad idea?

    And to anyone who has successfully shifted career paths, how did you do it? I feel like companies want such specific experience in certain things. I’ve only been in this job about two years. I’ve held a handful of other jobs and have a college degree. I just feel like my resume gets trashed because I haven’t specifically been a “Llama Groomer” but I have held positions that had related duties. I feel like o have a solid resume but ATS is zapping me out.

    1. Corrvin (they/them)*

      I made a 40’s career switch to libraries. I interviewed three librarians with specific questions and went to two library workshops after I’d been accepted to grad school (but before my first semester). I interviewed for some jobs in January before the semester started, because I had very little interview experience and needed the practice. I was able to use what I learned in the workshops and informational interviews to talk about my previous experience in library terms. I actually got offered two positions and took one of them. :)

      I don’t know if your specific “Llama Groomer” field has a professional organization but it probably wouldn’t cost much to join if it did. Pull on your connections a bit to get some informational interviews and see what you can pick up? I bet you just need a little help to get in the door.

    2. Avery*

      If the “Llama Groomer” field has courses you can take, or a certificate you can grab, that can make a big difference! I spent my 20s dithering around in various admin-esque positions, then got a paralegal certificate, and even without experience in the field that certificate make a significant difference in my job search. Having something on your resume to say “I’ve looked into the field and have some knowledge of it” can be helpful if you don’t have experience in that niche field per se.

      1. BottledPoetry*

        Do y’all think it’s a red flag if a hiring manager has all the interviewees redo their applications? I was referred to this job by a friend who said hiring manager told her that “no one filled out the application how she would want it” and that after interviews she planned to make people go back and do the application again. Because I’m a friend of a friend, I’m probably gonna get an interview/offer but now wondering if this is a good idea. This job would be a change in fields so not sure if this is common.

        1. Michelle Smith*

          If you followed the instructions initially, then yes. I would consider it a red flag. I’d have a serious conversation with whomever you can safely ask whether this person is a micromanager.

          1. The Real Fran Fine*

            That part. I have never heard of having job candidates redo an app just because the hiring manager didn’t like how they responded. Like, wth?!

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Isn’t the point of the application to *screen out* people who don’t respond the way the manager wants (e.g. insufficient experience, bad fit, etc)?

        2. Employee of the Bearimy*

          The only reason I could see this being okay is if the hiring manager is working with an unreasonably bureaucratic HR that will require specific boxes to be checked in order to make someone eligible for a position. And even then it speaks to an overly rigid work culture.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Some sectors (such as government) do have extremely rigid job applications, but that usually means they reject your application if you don’t fit. I’ve never heard of someone reapplying after the interview.

            1. Southern Ladybug*

              I work at a public academic institution – I have been in the position of needing a hire to add info (a certification they didn’t think was important, volunteer experience I learned about etc that can be counted towards “years of experience” etc) in order to help me justify a hire or salary. But in my group’s cases we’ve been upfront with the applicant about why (help us help you) and the reasoning/HR hurdles. Never would I just have someone redo a resume or application because it wasn’t how I would do it.

        3. Tinkerbell*

          The only time I’d see this as being okay is if the hiring manager accidentally left off some questions they really needed answers for, and needed to ask everyone to send in the additional info. (eg they asked “do you have certificate X?” but what they really needed was “please provide proof of what level certificate X you have achieved.”) *MAYBE* if they needed their applications to be formatted a certain way for their software and didn’t make that clear initially.

          If the hiring manager just thinks everyone didn’t do it well enough – and doesn’t consider the fact that if everyone did it wrong, maybe it was the instructions at fault – then they’re probably not someone I’d want to work for :-\

      2. Sharon*

        Agree! Do something deliberate that shows you’re interested in the area in which you’re applying to work rather than just applying to a million different jobs. It doesn’t have to be a full going back to school – going to industry events or attending a professional seminar can help.

        Also explicitly highlight transferable skills – for example, if you worked at a non-profit and you want to be a paralegal, saying you “advised clients on how to navigate government agency requirements and successfully complete assistance applications” will be more helpful than “supported food assistance program”

    3. DJ Abbott*

      I switched from analyst to member services, a position where I help members with complex financial things and do administrative work.
      I didn’t finish college. I started working with data in the 90s and had data and financial support positions until I landed a job as a entry-level analyst.
      I felt bored and isolated in my analyst job, and after my position was eliminated in 2019 I wasn’t motivated to pick up extra skills in that field. I figured out I needed to work more with people, so I was applying for administrative jobs and getting nowhere.
      What made the difference for me was working at a grocery store last year. This confirmed that I really enjoy working with people and gave me a customer service experience, so I started getting interviews and started in my new position last March.
      If there’s a specific experience you’re lacking, can you find a quick and easy way to get that experience? Like working in retail, or volunteering or doing freelance work?

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Please ignore the random “a”s in my post. Siri inserted them automatically and I missed taking them out.

      2. DJ Abbott*

        Also, I didn’t apply through an ATS for my job. They Indeed post said to email my résumé, so I did.

    4. Clisby*

      Not sure whether you mean a path within the same general career but not the same as what you’re doing now? Or a complete career change?

      My first degree, and career, was in journalism (14 years). I went back to school for a degree in Computer Science, and that became my career for the next 27 years.

      But in my case, a change in career path from newspaper journalism could have been a switch to public relations or marketing or tech writing, which would have required something different.

    5. Michelle Smith*

      I reached out to former colleagues who had successfully made the transition for help and advice. This was the biggest key to my success. I learned from people who actually did what I was trying to do and, because they are good people and because I acted on their advice, they were instrumental in providing referrals and championing me as references. I spoke to anyone they’d connect me to and did a ton of informational interviews. I worked on my resume over and over and made sure it highlighted transferrable skills. I perfected my cover letter. A lot of people don’t bother to write one, but I found it was a really good way to explain why I was making the transition and why it was a natural next step in my career journey in a way that my resume did not. My resume explained why I was a good fit, but my cover letter explained the why behind my desire to move away from a field that is generally seen as prestigious and coveted (law) to something that would pay less and be less socially admired. I hired a career coach to help me work through my rejections and to help me with things like practicing my interview skills, evaluating whether job opportunities were a good fit, and noticing red flags in application processes. I also hired a therapist to help me keep my spirits up and help me maintain my sense of self-worth. It took about 2 years, but I got the role I was looking for.

      I also don’t mean this to sound as harsh as it does, but I took ownership of my success and didn’t blame databases. The whole ATS is holding me back thing is a huge scam line that people have perpetuated in order to sell you things like resume rewrites. It is a lie. Stop buying into it. If you listen to actual recruiters, they explain that the ATS is actually just a database that holds people’s application materials. They can search it by keyword, sure, but you’re not getting kicked out by an automated system in the United States because it would be illegal for that to happen. Automatic rejections ONLY happen when you answer knockout application questions incorrectly. If the job posting says it requires 5 years experience in llama grooming, the application asks you “Do you have 5 years experience in llama grooming, yes or no?” and you answer “No,” you’re getting rejected. But it’s not the system rejecting you. It’s YOU self-selecting out because you don’t meet the basic job requirements. I highly recommend you check out Amy Miller on YouTube. She’s a recruiter with decades of experience. Her Recruiting In Yoga Pants videos explain all of this much more articulately and actionably than me. She has a video on knockout questions and she has multiple debunking popular ATS myths.

      Final thoughts – if you don’t have people you already know who have made the transition you want to make, get on LinkedIn and start searching. You can get a free trial of LI Premium if some of the filters are locked that you need. Search for people who have similar titles to yours in their work history, follow or connect with them, and reach out. Again, you might need Premium to message people who aren’t in your network. In my experience, people who are lower on the totem pole are easier to connect with for interviews, but shoot your shot regardless. If someone never posts on the site (you can check their activity from their profile), see if they have an email address in their contact information or some other way to get a hold of them. They’re probably not checking messages often. And maintain those relationships. Reach out to the people you meet and let them know how your job search went after you get what you were looking for. There is nothing more rewarding for someone who spent their time giving you advice than hearing back that it helped and the person got the job!

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I was rejected by the ATS for a job where my experience was a 90% match because I didn’t have a degree.
        I wasn’t going to lie and say I did have a degree. That would look really bad!
        I also wouldn’t lie and say I have more experience than I have in a particular thing.
        Either of these two options makes it look like you will lie to get a job. That can’t be good on any level. An employer who’s OK with that is an employer who will lie to employees and job candidates.
        I’m still salty two years later about the ATS rejection. Their loss!

      3. Lady_Lessa*

        Another way that ATS is fantastic at weeding people out is by their age. When you have to put the year you graduated from HS, college and any advanced degree, it is a very simple matter for your application to go into the reject/never seen file.

        1. voluptuousfire*

          The ATS wouldn’t weed out your resume by listing your college or high school grad dates unless that would be a knockout question. Also using that as a knockout question is incredibly shortsighted and discriminatory, potentially causing a lawsuit or a complaint to the EEOC.

          As someone who uses an ATS in their daily job, it’s a big ol’ digital filing cabinet. It’s basically a candidate database. Also echoing an above poster, Amy Miller with Recruiting in Yoga Pants is a great resource for learning about how recruiters work and a ton of great job search info.

    6. Totally Minnie*

      I recently went from libraries to performance auditing. I did all the research I could about the field, and when I was ready to start applying, I printed out the job posting and annotated it like I was back in college doing a research paper. The job requires this skill, have I done anything like it? Which job was that and what’s the associated story?

      From there, I could tailor my resume and cover letters to point toward the specific experience I had that could translate to the new field, and it gave me a head start on my interview prep because I had already started thinking about all my “tell me about a time when…” examples.

      I’m pretty happy in my new field so far, and I hope you get to have that experience too!

    7. Mid*

      I’d reach out to the same recruiter you’ve already talked to, since they’ve seen your resume and liked it, and ask them if they know of any openings that might be a better fit, since you’re interested in working at [Company]. I don’t think that would be weird at all.

    8. beach read*

      Temping might be helpful. When I needed to find an adjacent job, I got a lot of help from a local employment agency/staffing company. I had an in-depth interview and great conversation with the recruiter. She sent me on a temp assignment in the field I had wanted to move in to and I became a permanent employee within a year. Unfortunately, I was moving from banking to the mortgage industry and as much as I love it, I have to re-invent yet again. Good Luck with your search!

  6. Fishgirl56*

    Resume question: lost job last Spring, got my resume down to 1 page, currently working a contract job well below my skill set but needed the $. As my contract ends this Spring, how to add this temp job to my resume as I will be starting in the new year. Amazing company just no room for me at my level. Also how to update linked in?

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Absolutely. And only put in the skill sets/accomplishments most relevant to your main job target so it’s not too distracting. Same with LinkedIn.

      2. RagingADHD*

        It’s a stylistic nitpick, but personally if the contract has gone on for several months, I’d probably put “Contract” instead of “Temp”.

        Technically they mean the same thing, but Temp implies or gives the impression of multiple short-term positions, while Contract implies more stability.

    2. But Not the Hippopotamus*

      1 page is good for folks new to the work world, but there’s some flexibility as you progress. I think this is especially true with younger folks who change jobs more often (and the amount of space taken up just by the Company/title info). So… consider if it’s necessary?

      1. WoodswomanWrites*

        Yes to this. You can sell yourself short by arbitrarily limiting your resume to one page and leaving out things that might be compelling for a hiring manager. I’ve been in the work world a long time both as an applicant and part of the hiring process, and two pages is common and acceptable.

      2. Tinkerbell*

        Also keep in mind that you’ll be tweaking your resume for each job you apply to, AND most places will want you to apply online (so nobody’s sitting down to look at a formatted paper resume anyway) – ultimately, it’s more important that you’re accurate and thorough than that you fit on exactly one page.

  7. DesperateInTheCity*

    I am in a more senior level and haven’t been working during pandemics. Also have a couple gaps but very strong resume. I’ve been looking for work for 8 months and can’t find it. Interviewing for both Project Manager and Director level jobs. Even for jobs I’m totally qualified and have the right background, they nitpick and want a resume that perfectly matches what the job is about including specific sub-area. Making it impossible to get an offer. But I do think the issue is the gaps and only being promoted in one of my past positions. Or perhaps now I’m expressing myself during interviews.

    Any tips on what I may be doing wrong and how to express those gaps and sell my transferable skills well when I do get interviews?

    1. Ellie*

      What types of jobs are you applying for and how much experience do you actually have? How relevant are the jobs you’re applying for? I wonder if there’s a mismatch you’re not seeing.

    2. Stitch*

      How long have you been out of the workplace? They may be hesitant to hire someone for a more senior job who’s been out of the industry and missed more recent developments. Unfortunately you may have to aim down a bit if the gap is big.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        I left the workforce for 3 years to run my own business, and when I went back it took me many years and a few jobs to get back to the salary and level of responsibility that I had when I left. My first job back was probably 2 or 3 levels below where I was in the previous position.

        This was back in 2007, and I think with the pandemic gaps are more common and less of a red flag to employers than they used to be, but I also think at least some of that bias is still there. So this may indeed be part of the problem.

        1. Canada Goose*

          2007 is 15-16 years ago now, so it’s time to drop older jobs from your resume and bank of interview stories. If you focus on the last 10-12 years, the role progression and types of (relevant) experience you have should be more obvious.

    3. Me ... Just Me*

      In the context of trying to be helpful, I would suggest going over your resume for typographical and grammar errors. Your post here has a few errors (and, I know that this isn’t a resume) and so it could be that your resume and cover letter have some errors that you may have missed. For senior level roles, hiring managers and HR professionals will definitely be looking at those types of things. Also, you might practice your interviewing skills with a trusted friend who would be able to give constructive feedback on how you present yourself. Good luck in your job search!

      1. Totally Minnie*

        And if you can’t find a friend to practice interviewing with you, check in with your local library to see if they have any job search resources. The one where I used to work has a subscription to an employment website that has the standard templates and advice, but also allows you to do online coaching like resume reviews and practice interviews.

    4. Sabine the Very Mean*

      You mentioned both being in a senior level and that you have only had one promotion. Also that you don’t work during “pandemics” (we’ve not had plural pandemics). COVID has been raging for three years. Does that mean you’ve been out of work for that long? What qualifies you for senior level or project management? If you have been out of senior level work for three years, you should know you may have missed out on critical experience managing and leading during such events. The whole work world has changed drastically and likely won’t go back.

      I don’t understand the last sentence of your first paragraph. I’ve found my killer cover letter is what gets me interviews –even for jobs I’m not qualified for like an OP who updated us a few days ago. Do you cater your resume to each specific job you’re applying for just like you should be doing with your cover letter? Perhaps it’s time for a refresh of both.

    5. M2*

      I agree with all the replies to this post. Also, start applying for not senior level jobs. Many years ago I was at a Senior Director level role and wanted to switch sectors so ended up taking a manager role, but within a year (after hard work and accomplishments) I ended up at Director level. Just saying if it isn’t working sometimes you do have to take a step- down and that is okay! Good luck.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I find this part of your post quite relevant, “Even for jobs I’m totally qualified and have the right background, they nitpick and want a resume that perfectly matches what the job is about including specific sub-area.”

      Are you hearing their feedback and using it to calibrate which jobs you apply for, skills and experience you highlight, or training to invest in?

      You say the problem are the employement gaps and only having been promoted once, which makes me think you’re ignoring the real feedback prospective employers gave you. If it was about your employment gaps, they would have said so (since they’re willing to give feedback at all).

      So that’s where I suggest you start, look at the real feedback you’ve received and act on it.

      1. Mercenary*

        Yeah, the word nitpick stuck out to me too – it sounds like it indicates you have an attitude about (and are resistant to) their feedback instead of taking it on, which makes me wonder if that’s coming across as resentment or defensiveness in interviews or otherwise.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you may need to aim down. When you have a gap on your resume, it’s often hard to return to higher level roles. I would look for something a step or two down. I’d also consider the feedback you’ve gotten. If folks are saying they want people with experience in the specific sub-area of the field, I wonder if how well you’re tailoring your resume or if you’re not being selective enough to the jobs in question.

    8. Cacofonix*

      In my experience, the nitpicking about very specific skills or experience on an otherwise strong resume in these types of roles are either a) they already have someone in mind but their policy requires that they have a more expansive search or b) they don’t understand what they actually need or are inexperienced in hiring for these roles so they focus on technical skill vs leadership skills in leadership roles.

      That might explain some of what you’re seeing, but if it’s a pattern as you suggest, other great responses are probably the way to go.

      1. Tinkerbell*

        also

        c) they’ve discovered they can force their current staff to kinda-sorta cover the gaps for no extra pay, so they’re only going through the motions,

        d) there’s not actually room in the budget for them to hire someone with the skills they want so they reject every candidate they can’t drastically low-ball, or

        e) they’re only “hiring” because it’s the whim of some higher-up who doesn’t understand what the job actually entails so the posted job requirements have no bearing on the actual job they need someone to do :-\

    9. Hello Sweetie*

      I’m struggling to reconcile a few things:

      – I don’t understand the statement “I left the workforce for 3 years to run my own business.” That doesn’t strike me as being out of the workforce. That’s a specific job you are doing that should not show on a resume as a gap, but be described in terms of impact & outcomes. How are you handling this on the resume?

      – “I am in a more senior level…” doesn’t track for me with “only being promoted in one of my past positions.” You’ve described what I think is a long career and senior level positions, but that doesn’t jibe with only ever receiving one promotion and I am wondering again what you are documenting in the resume. “How many times were you promoted at a past employer” isn’t something I am worried about as a hiring manager. I’m looking to see what the progression/path is in your career as documented on the resume. Lots of people *move jobs* to promote and that’s absolutely normal.

      – “even for jobs I am totally qualified for” …”they want a resume that perfectly matches what the job is about”. You have said that multiple potential employers have “nitpicked” about this which makes me wonder if your interpretation of “totally qualified” doesn’t track with how you are tailoring your resume to the needs of the position. Are you bumping off the qualifications in the job description to be sure that your resume clearly indicates that you have all the pieces?

      The way I like to think of a resume is it should tell me your story in such a way that as the reader, it completely makes sense to me why the position I am hiring for is an obvious next step.

    10. Ginslinger*

      When you say your haven’t been working during pandemics (multiple?) Have you been leaving companies because you didn’t want to work in-person? What’s the story you are portraying to hiring managers? I certainly understand that some folks have had to stay home to be a caretaker or may have long-term recovery, but a lot of Hiring Managers are now leery of folks with these gaps.

  8. Trixie*

    For those who work from home, do you have a separate room/space or do you work from dining room/living room area? I currently have a spare room to use, and as I look at future apartments, would really like to keep my work area separate if possible. While budget determines everything, I know I appreciate being able to literally walk away from my work setup at home in the evenings and weekends.

    1. Baby Yoda*

      I work remotely but we already had an office type area set up in an addition on the back of our house. I do like it being separate, yet there’s still a window that looks into the kitchen so it’s not too isolated. It is nice to leave the office behind sometimes.

    2. Employed Minion*

      I work a hybrid schedule. My wfh station is setup in the den, a space I rarely use otherwise. It helps my mental health (especially when I wfh full time) to have that separation.

      I think it could still work if I had to setup at the dining table or living room. As long as I can ‘pack up’ and put the work away so I’m not looking at it during my downtime

      1. The Real Fran Fine*

        Your last paragraph is what I do. I went fully remote a year before the pandemic hit and live in a studio apartment downtown in a mid-sized city, so extra space is not really a thing. I’ve always worked at my dining room table with my laptop and external monitor with no problems – when I’m done working, I unhook everything, put my monitor in a space behind furniture and my laptop and other gear back in its bag, then in my hall closet. This set up works for me right now (though I am considering moving next year to a bigger apartment if the economy doesn’t completely tank, at which point, I’d have room for a separate work space).

    3. Roland*

      I work in the spare room. I use it a little bit outside of work if I need to do something on my personal laptop for long enough to use The Good Chair And Monitor, but I’m mostly in there for work and it’s awesome. If you have the space, highly recommend putting your office outside your living areas.

    4. WellRed*

      I have a work are meeting with desk and office chair tucked into not living room corner. It generally works but I really wish I could afford to take over the third bedroom for an office so I could get work out of sight.

    5. Sassy SAAS*

      I just recently moved into a larger home and now have my own office after having a desk in my living room or working from the kitchen island for the last 2 years. Even though its not completely set up, it’s been AWESOME to not work and relax in the same space. I feel like I can walk away from work, and I’m not reminded of it when I happened to glance at my desk in my living room of my older place. I really think having something separate is the way to go if your budget can afford it!

    6. CindyLouWho*

      We have an office space upstairs, so it’s separate from my living room. Hubs has his desk set up in the guest room, so separate also.

      It’s good to have the separation so you can walk away at the end of the day.

    7. Sloanicota*

      This is something I need to work on. I do most of my work on the couch in the living room and I think it’s a huge motivation drain. The TV’s right there, it’s a relaxing space, and it’s not the best situation. I used to work at the dining room table but it’s not as comfortable. There’s an office upstairs but the dog can’t stand it when I go in there.

      1. Marna Nightingale*

        Would a big fluffy dog bed for the office help? Maybe a couple of high-value toys or some chewies that are office-only?

        1. Sloanicota*

          Alas, his problem is that he can’t handle the stairs any more :( He’s an older boy. But, I could still work to set up a better office-like environment on the ground floor or even the walk-in basement.

    8. Marna Nightingale*

      I have a perfectly good office … and I’m sitting here proofreading on my bed, because I have a heated mattress pad so the animals are all here.

      OTOH, right now the rest of the family is away and I’m undisturbed, and also the office is chilly. In warmer months or when things are chaotic at home I do work there, and I appreciate having a place to keep stuff I need for work but don’t use every day (like the printer, and my ridiculously vast collection of reference books and style books and dictionaries — I don’t use my Merriam-Webster or my Chicago Manual or my Oxford Dictionary of Australian English or the Oxford Dictionary of Religious Studies or or or … for the steady gig, but when I need them, I NEED them) organized and tidy.

      I’m also a fan of the tax break, which may not apply outside Canada, or may apply differently.

      1. Avery*

        I’m right there with you! I have a desk set up for my work, but most days I’m paralegal-ing from bed. The blankets help in winter months, and it makes my animals happy because they can hang out with me in there.

    9. A Penguin!*

      My wife and I have an office, but we spend most of our non-work time there too (both big on computer gaming). When I work from home I work in the office on my gaming rig (VPN’d in to my work system). My wife actually works from the dining room and not from our office when she works from home. The dining room gets used for dining maybe 4 times a year, so it’s actually much more of a separate work area than any other room in the house would be.

    10. Lesbian in Tech*

      I have a 2BD apartment and use the 2nd bedroom as my “office” (and kitty litter space and general storage of crap space), but I think I’ll have to downgrade when I move next year to a 1BD. I will say that having a separate space for work was vital for me to keep sane.

      At the start of the pandemic, I had to work off of my personal computer setup because we didn’t have laptops/monitors/etc to go around, and it really made “work mode” hard to switch off, because my personal computer is also the source of my main hobbies: gaming & writing. I would be sitting at my computer trying to play a relaxing game at 11PM and thinking about the next day of work because my brain wasn’t able to switch contexts anymore. Before I got my work setup, I had to make a conscious effort to create a decompression time between ending work and transitioning to hobbies/chores/cooking in the evening. I started watching the local/national news since it was a full hour block and at least took me to the living room and let me sort of shut the mental door behind me.

      Even now with my separate work setup, I still stick to my news-watching because apparently I am now my grandma. I feel like it’s giving me just that extra step away from work at the end of the day.

      If I do have to downgrade, I’m going to put my work setup in the living room and buy some of those folding screens to sort of barricade the work area from view.

    11. Outta Space*

      I have a 700 sq ft apartment with a separate bedroom and a kitchen into a large living room with a small den that admittedly lives as a bit of a junk room.

      I have a desk set up at the far end of the living room right by the window, as far away from the door and the bedroom as I can. It actually worked out well for such a small space. The couch, bookshelves etc are all closer to the kitchen so the desk really is its own area of the apartment. It isn’t always natural but generally I do feel able to shut down over there and enjoy living in the rest of the space. No laptop in the bedroom is my hard rule.

      The caveat is that I live alone. But I did want to let those of us in expensive areas or with lower paying jobs know that it is possible to get a pretty decent setup in a one bedroom.

    12. Alpaca Bag*

      I’m in the corner of our living room and my wife has the whole dining room (we clear it off to feed people at holidays). I’ve gotten used to seeing my office area about 3 feet from the sofa, and it’s much better than if I had to commute again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    13. Clisby*

      I am retired after 17-18 years of working remotely (computer programmer), and always worked from a separate home office. My husband also used the home office to wfh occasionally before pandemic, completely during pandemic shutdowns, and occasionally now. In all 4 of the houses we’ve lived in together, the home office was the smallest bedroom, but plenty of room for two desks/computer setups. The current one even includes a closet that we outfitted with a table so our kids could have a desktop there when they were in school. I really liked having everything corralled in the home office.

    14. Mostly Managing*

      We had three of us working from home as well as three doing online school from home at the height of the pandemic. To say the house was full would be an understatement!

      DH and DD set up “Office Space” in the unfinished basement. This meant that there was a door (at the top of the basement stairs) between “work space” and “rest of life space” which was really important for them.

      The kids worked various places – often at the dining room table with me which meant I could interrupt my own work to explain fractions or subject/verb agreement or whatever. Fortunately, my work is very interruptable (mostly data entry, and flex hours – as long as I met deadlines, nobody cared when the work happened).

      The kids are all back in bricks-and-mortar schools, but DH and I are still working from home (he’s in the office 1-2 days a week, I’m not). He still prefers to work in the basement and I still prefer the dining room table.

      1. Joielle*

        Off topic, but would you mind saying a bit more about the kind of work you do, or how you would go about finding something similar? My spouse is looking to change jobs and he has some health issues that can make 9-5 work challenging, so a job that’s flexible and remote and can be interrupted if necessary would be perfect. What kind of job titles would he be looking for?

        1. Mostly Managing*

          Through that stage of the pandemic, I was doing ad-hoc work for a friend with her own business. She does bookkeeping/accounting, and I was taking on a load of the “grunt work” so that she could do the bits that required knowledge of things like tax deductions, payroll, etc.

          I’m not really sure how you’d go about finding it. My way was a bit unconventional – my puppy took a shine to hers and tried to hump it and we got talking….

    15. Dino*

      My industry requires WFH setups to be in a room with a door that can lock (and must be locked during the day). They don’t pay me enough to afford a 2bdr, and I don’t want my work in my bedroom. Especially since the company installs cameras to monitor you during your workday. So no WFH for me!

      1. A Penguin!*

        Wow, from the outside that sounds ridiculous. Locked in and camera monitoring!! I like my WFH options, but not at that price.

        Very curious about the industry, but I recognize that if you wanted to share you would have already included it, so I’ll just sit here and wonder. :)

        1. Dino*

          It is well-founded. I deal with hundreds of SSNs and credit/debit card numbers in a week and the cameras ensure we aren’t writing down that kind of information. The lock makes sure no one will barge in and see confidential information, which literally 99% of what I do is confidential.

          I work in as a video interpreter in VRS, and the FCC is very very strict. Before the pandemic WFH was rarely approved and came with even stricter requirements for home office setup, including random inspections to make sure workers are following all regulations at all times. Covid loosened things a bit, but still very strict compared to other kinds of WFH situations.

          1. A Penguin!*

            I’m unreasonably fascinated by how these random inspections could work. Clearly my work is not capturing enough of my brain cells today. To let somebody into my house to show that I have in fact locked the room I’m working in pursuant to their policies, I’d have to first unlock that room so I could get out of it to go unlock the door to the house. Frankly, if anyone was in position to barge in to my office I’d have bigger concerns than the confidential documents (my safety! it would have to be an intruder).

            1. Dino*

              Sadly I don’t have info on how it all used to work! I would guess that this was pre-cameras in your WFH setup days. It was so rarely done that it wasn’t well known what the requirements were. I’d imagine the inspection was just to make sure you didn’t move your workstation into your living room after you passed the first inspection.

      2. Girasol*

        That hardly seems fair. There are occasional noisy outbursts of one sort or another in the office too, but that hasn’t put an end to door-less cube farms, much less open office plans.

    16. RMNPgirl*

      I have a bedroom that I use as a library/office. The library is on one side of the room and my desk is on the other so they’re kind of separate.
      I also make sure that I wear “normal” clothes when working so that I can have that psychological separation between work and relaxing. It helps when I want to sit in my recliner and enjoy my library because when I do that I’m in comfy clothes.

      1. The Real Fran Fine*

        +1 to the wearing “normal” clothes comment

        Very rarely do I work in my pajamas – I’m either dressed in the same kind of business casual attire I would have worn to previous office jobs or I’m in my workout clothes (because I plan to do some form of exercise in the middle of my day to de-stress). Once I change out of my work clothes and my equipment is put away, I’m done for the day and don’t think about work anymore.

    17. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My work table is in the living room, which is my personal lair (as opposed to the “dining room” which is my son’s). The table/desk is dedicated to computers – my personal laptop and my work laptop. Work laptop stacks on top of the other one when I’m WFH, and goes to the office the other days.

      I do, however, use my desk chair for both computing and sewing, which means it travels across the room to my sewing machine as needed.

      We’re not going to talk about the fabric stacks that litter the space between.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Same. My living room is my workspace and sewing room. I angle the desk to point to the wall. I only see patients on video from home one half day a week but I do a lot of messages and lab results from home. We have a virtual desktop and I just don’t log into it if I’m not working.

    18. Double A*

      My workspace is in my bedroom, but our master bedroom is big. I find I have no problem shutting my computer off and being done, but I have strong boundaries around work anyway. Also I have kids so when I end work I switch to caring for them and don’t have time to just happen to do some work.

    19. Stitch*

      I have a separate space. I need dual monitors for my job so I need space. I also need to be able to close the door on say, sick days when my husband and I trade off on childcare.

    20. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I WFH full time since 2014, so when I was house shopping in 2015, a separate office was on my must-have list. My house does that mid-80s thing of two living rooms, or “a (formal) living room and a(n informal) family room,” so I took the one that was off to the side for my office and kept the one that was central to the main living area as our actual living room. So I don’t have a door, and the layout precludes adding one, but I am out of the way of the main area of the house.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Thinking about it — all three of us in my house WFH and have office space (me in my family room, my husband has one of the spare bedrooms upstairs, my brother has a big workspace in the finished basement) but all three of us keep our work computers and our personal computers on the same desks. I only use my personal computer during the workday, any after-hours personal computing is done on my iPad in the actual living room, but my actual office room is where my bookshelves and craft supplies all are stored. The boys both use their personal desktops for video gaming and I assume just ignore the work computers after hours? So we all have designated office space where we work from, but overall use of the space is mixed between work and personal.

    21. Casper Lives*

      I’ve got a home office in a separate room. L desk, sit/stand desk on top, orthopedic chair / keyboard / mouse / foot pad, the whole works. I love it!!

      I started the pandemic in a one bedroom apartment and worked in the “living room” there. It was horrible. Especially hurting myself by sitting on a non orthopedic chair and hunching over the dining room table.

    22. Roscoe da Cat*

      I work in my living room, but the set up is to the side. I can turn off at the end of the day and it is out of my line of sight. Some of my friends do well with those small cabinets that open up into desks and you can easily close at night.

    24. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I use a corner in the living room but it’s a large room. I’m at ‘ work ‘ when I’m at the desk and at home pretty much any other time except for when I use my laptop on the couch ( sorta sick) or the bed ( very sick)

    26. Random Bystander*

      I have a rather odd space/room in my house. This house was built in the 1930s and it’s almost like a really wide (7 feet in the narrow spot–there’s a stair to the upstairs on one side) hallway rather than a proper room. I have a desk that exactly fits (L-shape) between the bathroom door and the closet. I rarely go into this space when I am not working–but another trick that helps me a lot with the ‘away from work’ mindset is that at the end of the day, I always restart the computer and turn off the monitors (that way those darn screensavers don’t pop up and catch me if I do come through). This space also has a window … back in the office days, I was on the window side of the office, but the person at the next desk *insisted* on having the light-blocking shades down all the time, so I am absolutely loving having a window that I can glance outside through, even on miserable rainy days like it is where I am today.

    27. Generic Name*

      I have a separate room with a door that functions as my office. A former coworker of mine built a house with the intent of working from home. This was years pre-pandemic. In his temporary living situation, you could hear his child and wife in the background playing or doing dishes, or any myriad of household activities. We all gave him the benefit of the doubt since he was living with family while his house was under construction. So after he moved into his newly built house, I was surprised that the background noise actually seemed worse. Computer microphones can be very sensitive, which is something to be cognizant of when working in a common area of a dwelling and other people are around.

    28. Phillip*

      I had to take a job away from home at the beginning of the pandemic. Had a small apartment. After a couple of years I transitioned to a 100% online position with the same company. Worked there for 3 months‘till my lease ended. Always having my work setup in front of me in the dining room was annoying. Meanwhile, my wife converted a large, walk-in storage closet (used for bulk supplies from Sam’s/Costco, etc.) into office space. Works great. Have a riser for my laptop/extra monitor that lets me stand 30/sit 30, walk in place, etc. and I have a door that I can close either for privacy or at the end of the day so I don’t have to look at.

    29. Jay (no, the other one)*

      For years I worked at the dining room table when I brought work home. I am now Officially Old and my back won’t tolerate that. At the beginning of the pandemic, hubs and I had a study we shared. Since I’m a doc, I can’t have anyone in the room during telehealth appointments so he moved his work into the guest room and he’s stayed there while I gradually adjusted the study to be what I want it to be. When I was WFH full-time I only used this room for work and I drastically cut back on my non-work computer time. I really needed the separation – I needed to be able to leave work and shut the door. For a while I also exercised and showered immediately after work to create even more space and force myself to shift gears. Even if I was physically capable of working at the dining room table I would have worked in a different room. I’m well aware that we are really really lucky to have the space. Our daughter was a college sophomore in the spring of 2020 and she was living here and going to school full-time online from March to August. She worked in her bedroom, hubs worked in the guest room, I worked in my study. I’m so grateful we were able to do it that way.

    30. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      I have a room in my semi-finished basement that we converted into a home office. I’m 100% WFH and have been for the last two years, and for me having a separate space is essential. It gives me privacy for zoom meetings, has very few distractions (no TV, refrigerator or even a window), and like you said, when I close the door at the end of the day it really helps me to turn off work mode.

      Sometimes when work is slow – like this week is particularly dead – I’ll work upstairs to get some sunlight, and in those cases I do work at my kitchen island. But I wouldn’t give up my home office for anything.

    31. A Becky*

      I have an office, but I flip between using that and using the living/dining room. The office isn’t a total waste of space when I’m not using it, because it’s where my sewing machine and fabric live.

    32. New Mom*

      We have a shed in our backyard that my husband works out of and I float around the house doing a few hours of work in different spots.

    33. Tio*

      I used to work at the living room table back when WFH was only going to be “for a few weeks” and just kept going with it for a couple years, until this year I cleared out one of the guest rooms, sold the beds, and got myself a nice standing desk

    34. afiendishthingy*

      I have an office but i almost always work while lying on the couch. I only use my office when I really need my external monitor; otherwise I’d rather lie down with my laptop.

      I think I need a comfier spot in my office though; I moved a few months back to a bigger place and haven’t really furnished the office. If I had my office better set up I would spend more time in there and I do think it’s nice to walk away from work at the end of the day. It does help that my job has very set hours and at 4 pm we all say good night and turn off the computers; zero expectation to be available after hours.

    35. DJ*

      As I live in a 1 bedder I work in the hallway opposite the kitchen. Next to the desk I have a double IKEA cube bookcase on its side for storage. Used to have my small dining room table there but moved it to the loungeroom under the window. I’d love a second bedroom/sunroom apartment where I could put a desk up one end and a single bed the other end for guests. Currently I have to keep it very tidy.

    36. sundae funday*

      I have an office, but honestly, I often end up setting up at the kitchen table. I think the reason is my office suffers from what I’m going to call “spare room syndrome,” which means it sometimes ends up with a collection of things I don’t know what to do with, and I can’t work there because it’s too cluttery.

      So my advice if you’re going to set up a separate space is to avoid that happening at the beginning rather than waiting until it’s as bad as mine and then trying to find the energy to clean/excavate….

    37. MigraineMonth*

      I live in a 3-room apartment with a roommate, so my only choices are my rommate’s bedroom, my bedroom, or the common room. The internet connection is sketchy in my bedroom, so I work in the common room.

      I just make sure that I shut down the computer at 5pm and don’t turn it on until 9am the next work day. I also don’t have the email on my other devices, and I disconnect 100% during my time off. It’s worked for me to keep my work and non-work time separate.

    38. Lalaith*

      I’m using a bedroom as an office, which I think is the best if you can manage it – I can close the door to minimize interruptions, and I have a definite separation of work and home life. In my previous apartment, I had a pretty big living room, so I was able to block off one corner of it with my desk/monitors/bookshelf. That worked fairly well too, as far as separation of work and home went, since I didn’t have to look at my work stuff or sit there when I wasn’t working.

    39. Adrian*

      I work on my dining room table in a 1 BR apartment that’s a nice size in itself, but can’t accommodate even a small desk without a major compromise.

      When it’s not in use, I keep my work laptop on an end table I got as a computer stand. I bought an external monitor early in pandemic WFH, which stays on the table since it’s not really in the way there.

      I recently changed to a job that’s far less demanding than my old one. So while my work setup is in my living space, it doesn’t feel like the intrusion that my old job did.

    40. Honey Badger Just Don't Care*

      I have a large bonus room that I converted to a library just before the pandemic and WFH became a permanent thing for me. I moved my personal office into that area and had this small cubby area in the corner that turned out to be the perfect place for a full sized ergonomic desk, dual monitors, and excellent chair. Because it’s tucked away, it provides a nice dedicated work space that doesn’t interfere with my relaxing use of the rest of the room. All my personal PCs and non work stuff are available without having to get into the work area for anything. It makes shutting off from work far easier. I’d highly recommend that if you can afford a place to create a dedicated work station, you do so. I think overall, you’ll be happier.

    41. MeepMeep123*

      I have a separate office that is just an office and nothing else. I have my treadmill desk set up the way I like it, there are no distractions, and the only thing I can do in that space is work. I love it.

    42. Cass*

      We converted our formal dining room into a library/office which is where I work. Totally agree with having a dedicated space that you can walk away from at the end of the day. If not possible, could you have a desk in a room or maybe a dedicated space in your home that is work/productive computer type work only?

    43. Cookie*

      When I bought my condo, room for a separate work area was high on my wish list, as was room to put my stationary bike. I figured it would be the same room, but the available property that met my needs had MORE room than I needed, so the bike is in a room of its own. I use the office (former resident’s bedroom) for work most of the time, but of course my cat prefers I sit hunched over a laptop on the couch. The office is also handy for doing telemed appointments, online trivia where I have to be on camera, etc. And I store stuff there, well organized – bookshelves, cabinets, a closest etc. keep it contained. Also a great place for the cat’s litter box – easily accessible but not out in the living area.

      I love this. The condo is a financial stretch for me, though, so I’m not sure it will be like this long term. If I had half the space, I’d be squeezing my stationary bike into the same room as I’d always envisioned.

    44. pcake*

      I’ve worked in the living room since 1996. I have a medium sized desk with monitor and hutch, cart with printer, 2 computers, battery backup all in one side of the living room. During the day, I’m often alone at home, but I still felt too isolated using a room only for my work.

      But that’s just my own preference…

    45. Tango Maureen*

      I work remotely, and I have a one-bedroom apartment that has a fairly sizable linens closet/pantry that I turned into a very small home office. There’s almost exactly enough room for a desk and chair but not much else. This works pretty well, but since there’s no natural light I sometimes have to take long breaks away from the computer screens.

    46. allathian*

      We’re fortunate enough to be able to afford a 5-bedroom house in the suburbs. I’m a very restless sleeper, so my husband and I haven’t shared a bed since our son was born. I work in what is essentially my husband’s bedroom. He also has his own computer in the same room, although he leaves me to work in peace if he’s off work and I’m working. I have a 1-monitor/2 computers setup, and as soon as I switch off my work laptop, I’m done working, even if I continue to stare at the same monitor on my personal computer. To be fair, though, I’ve cut down on personal computer time a lot since March 2020, and usually only use it during the weekend or when I’m on vacation.

      I don’t want any electronics in my bedroom, not even my cellphone. I have a sunrise alarm clock, although TBH I’m usually awake before the light switches on. When my husband is WFH, he works in our library/movie room, and uses our 60 in TV as an extra monitor when necessary.

      Our son has a bedroom and a separate schoolroom/gaming room. This was really useful when he had to do remote school for a few months in spring 2020. Thankfully he’s been back in a brick-and-mortar school since fall 2020, but the setup worked fairly well because he was self-driven enough even in 5th grade not to need constant supervision. We like this arrangement, because it means that he’s not tempted to spend half the night gaming with his friends.

  9. Cj*

    I was in way over my head at a job I started in August, and was let go yesterday. I’m not going to put it on my resume because I don’t have any accomplishments to show for it, but what do I say if potential employers ask what I’ve been doing those months? I don’t want to lie, both because of the fact that it’s never a good idea, and if they do a background check the job will probably turn up. Do I just say it wasn’t a good fit, admit I was in over my head, or what? I actually wouldn’t mind admitting I was in over my head if I describe the kind of clients I was handling because I don’t want to be in the same situation with a new job.

    I started applying to jobs yesterday already, it went into some interesting things in the job description. Like saying they are looking for youthful energy (I am 61 and can see somebody my age suing for age discrimination if they’re not hired). Or saying they’re looking for a creative person, when these are jobs and accounting. In my opinion the words creative and accounting should not go together. I decided to apply for that one anyway, until I got to their website and saw that you had to answer questions like what podcast should we all be listening to. I’ve never listened to a podcast in my life.

    I did find five jobs to apply to, four of them that are supposed to be remote, however, from what I read you, I wonder if they really are fully remote. The other one is within commuting distance of me, and has remote in all caps in the job description title, but at the end of the job description it asks if you are within commuting distance or willing to locate to the city that it is in.

    1. Marna Nightingale*

      “In my opinion the words creative and accounting should not go together.”

      Not unless you’re the accountant for the Dendarii or something, no…

      2. Prospect Gone Bad*

        I work finance-adjacent. I think “creative” is a broad term here that can cover situations like:

        1) Someone not being able to assign charges to GL codes on their own, asking about how every little thing should be categorized
        2) being able to think up solutions ongoing solutions. For example if someone does something manually every week, is there a way to automate it? Or have the other company or department automate it and send the information in an easier-to-use format? A creative person would ask those sorts of questions
        3) being able to research different situations. Yes Accounting is logical but it doesn’t mean there is a pamphlet for every situation? What if you discover revenue was overstated in 2019? How do you check if the tax rates you’re charging in Austin are correct? These are things that are out there but not easily searchable and you need a tad of creativity to know how to find what you need to find

        1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

          Yes! I was a Cost Accountant for 5 years and my creativity definitely was an asset for problem solving and identifying inefficiencies. Even though I wasn’t doing creative work, I was much more likely than some of my other co-workers to think of and suggest new ways to do things.

        2. Cj*

          I agree with everything you said here, and that kind of thinking is a true asset in accounting. I guess I’ve just never really thought about it as being creative, although off hand I can’t think of the truth I would use instead.

          My thinking is probably influenced by the fact that one of my first job was for a place that had the word Creative in a title, and what the guy was doing was not all above or. It was the only job I ever walked out of without notice.

          2. The Real Fran Fine*

            Yeah, I wouldn’t have used the word “creative” here either for the same reason you mentioned (terrible connotation in this context), lol. If they’re looking for a self sufficient problem solver with strong critical thinking skills, they could just say that.

            1. Cj*

              I guess that’s why I couldn’t think of the word I was looking for, because it takes way more than one word to describe what they are looking for. You worded it very well.

        3. sundae funday*

          Right, the true definition of creativity is the ability to think originally, make connections between unlike things, and apply knowledge gained in one sphere to another. So many people think of it as just meaning art, but creative thinking is broader.

          That said, the company OP is referring to sounds like it’s trying way too hard to attract a certain kind of trendy young person. I like podcasts and all, but making a podcast recommendation really shouldn’t be a prerequisite for a job unless it’s a job in, well, podcasting, I guess!

          1. Cj*

            I know creative when used in this context is not meant to mean art. But the historical connotations of Creative Accounting is doing something shady. At least in public accounting. It sounds like people Manufacturing or Finance environments don’t run into that.

            1. Dancing Otter*

              Oh, it has the same connotation in Finance. When I worked for a bank, we had an ongoing battle with the Investment folks. Short version: GAAP is not optional.
              You don’t get hedge accounting for speculative derivatives just because it makes your results look better. Would you rather take our word for it or wait for the auditors to issue an adverse opinion?

      3. MigraineMonth*

        I started reading Bujold just so that I would understand the Dendarii Free Mercenary jokes. Thank you, it’s wonderful.

        1. Cj*

          I had a Google that referenced so I knew what they were talking about. It sounds very interesting, and if I remain unemployed for a while, I’ll probably start reading it.

      4. Pennyworth*

        My accountant, when I was trying to recover money my ex-husband had borrowed from me over the years. told me “You tell me what you need and I’ll make the numbers right”.

        1. Cj*

          Oh, my. This is what I was taking about, although it kind of past creative into outright fraud (although creative does often mean fradulent).

          Since you are anonymous here, just curious what you said to your attorney.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      Employers will ask about a four month gap.

      I’m not sure that a background check will turn up this job unless they ask for tax returns. Unless your employer was signed up to the work number or something. It’s easier to confirm employment then determine you were employed elsewhere. But even you lied and said you were unemployed, it’s not like that would help you much.

      You have to come clean. So, it might as well be on your resume. But at 61, you’ll have to come up with a good story as to why you were over your head at the old place but won’t be elsewhere.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        Yeah I’m not sure how a background check would turn up this job. That’s not really how background checks work and their isn’t a database of every job you’ve had unless, like PG said above, they ask you for your returns which may not be available to them until April or May.

        I don’t agree that you “have to come clean” like PG said above. Plenty of people have gaps in their resumes especially now. Tell them you were handling family issues that are now resolved.

        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          “Plenty of people have gaps in their resumes especially now. Tell them you were handling family issues that are now resolved.”

          That’s a better idea.

        2. Cj*

          Laughing at you saying my returns won’t be available until April or May. Mine are usually filed on October 15th, the due date of extended returns. You know the saying “the cobblers children have no shoes”, because they do shoes for other customers but not their own family? That’s what I’m like with my own return.

      2. Cj*

        I was in over my head because I am from rural MN and at least 70% of my clients have always been farmers. This job was remote and the company is based on CA with and entirely different type of client.

        I was offered the job two hours after my only interview. They knew my specialty was farm returns. Both they and I should have done more due diligence to see if it was a hood fit.

        The firm employs about 25 people. Since I started in august, I am the third one fired, and 5 people have quit. I talked to a former coworker that started the same time as me, and they are thinking about looking for something else due to lack of training.

        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          “The firm employs about 25 people. Since I started in august, I am the third one fired, and 5 people have quit. I talked to a former coworker that started the same time as me, and they are thinking about looking for something else due to lack of training.”

          And that’s a good explanation.

          1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

            +1

            I don’t think any interviewer would even blink if you put it that way. It absolutely frames it as a them problem, not a you problem. That sort of turnover is not normal in a functional office.

            On a different note, I worked as a contract employee for 6 months for a similar small, dysfunctional firm, and I will never work for such a tiny company again.

          2. Hen in a Windstorm*

            No, it isn’t, at least not as written. CJ will need to finesse the answer a bit. Something more like, “It’s a small company and 1/3 of its staff was either fired or quit since August. I was one of the casualties.”

            1. Chilipepper Attitude*

              Hen in a windstorm wrote that perfectly!

              Maybe add, and here is what I learned from the experience…

              1. The Real Fran Fine*

                Yup, definitely add the learning piece to the end of this so the hiring manager will know you’re self aware and will bring that same awareness and due diligence to this opportunity.

              2. Cj*

                It’s better than a direct quote of what I have said, but want that be bad mouthing the company, but you aren’t supposed to do?

                I would definitely say I learned from the experience, and think explaining the type of returns I have experience with compared to the type of clientele at my former employer would be a good idea.

                1. Tio*

                  The advice against badouthing the company means 1. Don’t say anything that is subjective, i.e. the management is bad, the supervisor wasn’t competent, basically anything that is not a fact and 2. Don’t go on an extended tear against the company. You can say what Hen wrote, and it would be fine; it’s a fact. But if you then started talking about how it was a bad experience, or management was terrible, etc then it turns into a rant and is off putting. They’ll assume what they want about the fact the staff has left; let them. Give them the information and then launch into something positive for yourself.

            2. Aggretsuko*

              This sounds like a pretty bad company if they keep having people quit/get fired. Maybe CJ shouldn’t feel so badly about this one going wrong when they are not the only one.

    3. kiwiii*

      “I was in a job that is pretty unrelated to the work I’d be doing here; i’m excited about the opportunity to do x and y here”.

    4. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I think you can simply say you took the job with the understanding it was X and it was more about Y, so it was not a good fit for either party. Then quickly pivot to a relevant question about the job you’re interviewing for.

      1. cncx*

        This is exactly what I said in interviews about my last job. Like OP there was a lot of turnover so I was like, « once the dust settled, my job was y when at hire I was told it would be x. I’m interested in working here because you mention more x which is what I am best at. »

    5. Joielle*

      I just read a random article on here where Alison gave a script for this! She recommended addressing it head on and honestly explaining that you were let go and it wasn’t a good fit on either side for XYZ reasons. Let me see if I can find the article and link it in a reply comment.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      I would say any one of the following: bad fit (give a good reason or two why and it’s not a big deal imo), of if you don’t want to mention the job: minor health issue that’s resolved, helping with a family situation, taking a few months off for a refresher, once in a lifetime travel opportunity etc, etc

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I would not do the travel one. A lot of people love hearing about travel, and they will ask for details.

    7. DJ Abbott*

      I think the one that says remote, but asks if you’re commuting distance and whether you’d relocate, is a red flag. They’re trying to get applicants by saying they’re remote when they’re not really remote. They understand people want to work remote, but are not willing to accommodate it. If they’ll do that, they’ll do other deceptive and unethical things. Tread carefully with them.
      I saw a few of these posts last winter before I got my job. It’s a trend I noticed in job posts, they say what they think we want to hear whether it’s true or not.

      1. Tio*

        Also, for all the remote ones, be sure to ask specifically about it and whether its permanent in the interview. Their reaction may tell a story

      2. Luca*

        OT, I’m thinking that requiring occasional in-office time could be the WFH version of mandatory vacations in highly regulated industries. If a remote worker is doing something they shouldn’t like juggling multiple gigs, this could catch it.

      3. Cj*

        I never thought about it meaning they might be deceptive or unethical in other areas. That one would actually be only be a 20 minutes commute for me, but I definitely want to find out more details about them saying remote in the headline versus saying being incoming distance in the body of the job description.

        It says they are urgently hiring, and with busy season starting next week, I wondered if they recently added the remote part and forgot to remove the must be in commuting distance or willing to relocate from the job description. But even if that’s the case and they would let me work remote this tax season, it doesn’t mean they won’t make me come to the office later. Which in my case would be doable, but like you said, deceptive. Especially if they hired someone who wasn’t in commuting distance, they quit their job to take this one, or turn down other offers, and now there is no way they could keep this one if it wasn’t remote.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Yes, Exactly.
          I saw this so often in the last few months of my job search (through February 2022).
          Remote, often in caps, at the top and then at the bottom, something about coming to the office. It was so common they can’t all be oversights.

  10. But Not the Hippopotamus*

    I know I’m probably unreasonably upset, given I’ve been having migraines all week and they make me rather crabby, but I work hybrid and went into the office yesterday and two separate people had to tell me, at length, about how they put up festive wreaths on all the office doors for the “holiday” party, but the one on MY door (and the other Jewish person’s door) had blue ribbons instead of red because we are Jewish.

    I feel like it’s Hanukkah balls. I’d have no problem with them putting up wreaths, because I get some people find it pleasant and festive, but… It makes it feel like it’s “my wreath” rather than an office decoration, and not only do I not celebrate Christmas, but I find the idea that “we make it blue so it’s Jewish” offensive! Not only that, but it’s sort of single-out-y.

    These folks are older and legit mean well… But I was at a total loss. I think I just said “oh” and tried to change the topic (nope, let’s look at photos!).

    Any ideas on how I could have handled it better? Or how to convey that this is offensive – even if the other Jewish person doesn’t mind it? Or should I just let it go since I know I’m extra crabby right now?

    1. WellRed*

      Let it go because you are crabby. Maybe for next year, suggest people decorate their own doors IF they wish.

    2. Marissa*

      I would be FURIOUS. In my current job I’d talk to my boss about it, because I trust him to confidentially and sensitively handle that kind of issue. In other jobs I’ve had, I would let it go… and tell it as a funny/horrifying story absolutely every chance I got.

    3. Thegreatprevaricator*

      I think they’re trying to be inclusive and failing because, as you say, it singles you out as different. I’m not sure why they would think a Jewish person would have a problem with a Christmas wreath in red – it’s a secular decoration not a religious symbol (disclaimer, not Jewish).

      If you can be bothered, I think my approach would be to talk to the people who approached you directly. I’d say how I appreciated the effort they’d gone to, and apologies for not being more effusive but the problem is that it makes you feel singled out and in fact has the opposite effect to what you assume they intended.

      Perhaps next year they might have input from a wider diversity of voices so they can avoid this kind of thing. Possibly something festive but more generalised so people feel included not singled out.

      I think the pressure to be graceful with things like this is sadly with the person who is being excluded rather than the excluders. It is basically discrimination as a result of unconscious bias. Sorry it feels like another thing to deal with – it’s ok to be annoyed about it.

      1. Jessica*

        I would argue that a CHRISTMAS wreath is not secular. It might not be a religious symbol in the way that a Nativity scene or a crucifix is, but it’s decoration that is specifically for Christmas, which is a religious holiday. I think the whole very common attitude of “let’s all celebrate the secular side of my religious holiday” is itself a problem, because some people genuinely do not want to celebrate your religious holiday at all.
        Ask yourself, would an office with a workforce of 100% religious Jews be putting up wreaths right now? Probably not, because these are Christmas wreaths.

        2. Girasol*

          I’ve always thought that too, but when I said the same in another forum there was a lot of “you’re SO wrong about that!” The fact that decking the halls with greenery has become such a part of Christmas tradition, some said, makes them symbols of a Christian festival to most people. I still think greens symbolize the sun returning at solstice but I guess I can see their point.

          1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

            “Sun returning to solstice” is not something everyone celebrates or acknowledges, either. Please don’t expect people to substitute yet another belief system for theirs.

          2. Pennyworth*

            I think evergreen foliage was to represent life continuing through the depth of winter, the candles are for the return of the sun. Wreaths and greenery pre-date Christianity in Europe, as does the mid-winter date (Jesus is assumed to have been born in March), so as a lapsed Christian I use all the ”Çhristmas” decorations that aren’t actual religious symbols as part of my entirely secular celebrations. It is above all a commercial event, which is sad, but that’s capitalism.

            1. allathian*

              Yes, me too. The only explicitly religious symbology I’m comfortable with is the star at the top of the tree, which symbolizes the Star of Bethlehem.

              That said, I’m not buying the argument that even secular Christmas is anything but a Christian holiday for people who follow or have been raised in another faith tradition.

      2. mon*

        I suggest that non-Jews stop weighing in on this since they’re clearly missing some of the cultural significance. It’s not a secular decoration, it’s a Christmas decoration and Christmas is not a secular holiday.

        The assumption that Jews should be assumed to partake in “secular” symbols of Christmas is offensive and it’s tied to assimilation concerns that are deeply serious ones for many Jews. (I’m not blaming you for not knowing this but non-Jews should hang back for that reason.)

        I’d be pissed off, would remove the wreath and would speak to whoever will be in charge of this next year.

        1. But Not the Hippopotamus*

          The wreaths were all down when I went into the office. They were up for the party, I think.

            1. But Not the Hippopotamus*

              Yes, the “regular” decorations were still up (tree in lobby, sparkly garland thing on the reception desk, and a “Happy Hunnukah” sign/thing on a table, etc.). This was a particular hallway where my office was. There’s maybe 10 offices, including the branch execs, and an EA. The receptionist and EA were both telling me about it. The EA was the one who whipped out a phone to show me pictures. I don’t know why those were down – I assume they were just for the party. Somebody might have told me, but I was feeling so cranky and awkward it took all my energy not to snap at them.

              1. Tio*

                Ooof. Maybe suggest for next year that you each get to decorate your own doors? Or that you, at least, prefer to do your own decorations?

              2. Tinkerbell*

                Ugh. I’m (nominally) Christian, but this would really bug me too – it’s one thing to put up generic winter-themed decor in shared spaces of the office, but putting them on individual people’s doors and then color-coding them by religion is just creepy. That feels like they’re decorating your space without your consent, and that’s not okay.

                My advice (FWIW) is to address the specific thing you’d like them to do differently – “While I appreciate that you were trying to be thoughtful, Hanukkah is not the Jewish equivalent to Christmas and it feels weird to be singled out like that. Next year, could we just decorate the break room and keep it generally festive?”

                1. Pennyworth*

                  The blue ribbons must have been very upsetting. Putting distinctive decorations on the doors of Jewish employees is – well ”awful” isn’t strong enough. Does no one study history any more? First, I hope your migraines get better. Second, take time between now and November to think about what you would have considered appropriate and not upsetting, and whatever it is, advocate for that.

      3. Marissa*

        For a religion that has been attempted to be erased, repeatedly and deliberately, by Christianity, a red and green wreath on a door at Christmas is not a secular symbol. Christians have done a great job convincing most of the US that Christian symbols are secular, but many of us in minority religions absolutely do not experience it that way because of this history our culture has with Christianity. Please do more reading before speaking for members of a community you’re not part of.

        1. Ali + Nino*

          Christians have done a great job convincing most of the US that Christian symbols are secular, but many of us in minority religions absolutely do not experience it that way because of this history our culture has with Christianity.

          +1 great observation

        2. Thegreatprevaricator*

          Totally acknowledge my lack of lived experience here. The op seemed to suggest they didn’t have a problem with a wreath.

          I will also note that I’m in the UK and I think it would be safe to say that a wreath really is a secular thing over here. (Recent census shows that less than 50% identify as Christian thus making it a minority religion). I should have considered the different context in the US!

          ‘Please do some reading’ puts my back up if I’m honest. Read what? I’m reading that as patronising and a bit of a dig if I’m honest.

          1. Me ... Just Me*

            In the US, most folks aren’t going to church on (or even around) Christmas and Christmas is entirely secular for them. Nary a baby Jesus or nativity scene present.

          2. Chilipepper Attitude*

            I think you just said you don’t have any lived experience with this, did not think about how this works in the US, and noted that the OP would not mind a Christmas wreath but did mind a “Jewish” wreath AND ignored that the OP said that other Jews would not all think the same way – then you gave your thoughts on this, were told you were off base by ppl who do have experience with it and are Jewish (or not xtian) – and finally were puzzled by anyone suggesting you learn more??

          3. Emma2*

            Also in the UK – December holiday wreaths are definitely Christmas-themed decorations, and Christmas is still a Christian festival even if some non-Christians choose to celebrate it as a secular holiday. While less than 50% of people in the UK identify as Christian, that is to do with declining religious practice not with other religions becoming substantially larger (people identifying as Christian went from 59.3% in 2011 to 46.2% in 2021; people identifying as “no religion” went from 25.2% to 37.2%; the largest other religious group in the UK is people identifying as Muslim, who are 6.5% of the population – the total percentage of people identifying as any religion other than Christian was <11%). A very large proportion of people who identify as "no religion" in the UK come from a Christian background (or themselves identified as Christian in the last census 10 years ago); I don't think it is at all accurate to describe Christianity as a minority religion in the UK – it is more than 4 times larger than all other religious groups combined.
            I think the holiday wreaths OP posted about were completely out of line (am personally a "no religion" but from a Christian background)

          4. Giant Kitty*

            I am not religious and not Christian (but am from a nominally culturally Christian background) and choose not to celebrate Christmas exactly because it IS a Christian religious holiday.

      4. fueled by coffee*

        Wreaths are Christmas decorations. Jewish people don’t celebrate Christmas, regardless of if the tinsel is red or blue.

        Making the wreath blue adds to the insult — not just, “we put up Christmas decorations around the whole office because most people celebrate Christmas,” but “we aren’t even trying to pretend that you celebrate a completely unrelated holiday during this time of year. We know you’re Jewish, but we’re only going to acknowledge it by putting a blue ribbon on our religious decorations so that you can celebrate OUR holiday, too.”

        OP, I don’t know how much capital you have or want to spend here, but I’d suggest snowflake decorations for next year.

      5. is there such a thing as too PC?*

        See, I would think it’s offensive to put up a wreath on a Jewish person’s door, and therefore, I wouldn’t put any decorations up at all.

        I really don’t know if “don’t do anything” is the answer, but I don’t want to risk hurting anyone’s feelings.

        I might be overthinking it, though? I mean, I stopped at a gas station on Christmas Eve on the drive to my mom’s house for a little snack. The guy behind the counter appeared to be Middle Eastern. Without thinking, I said “Merry Christmas” as I walked away… and then I felt awful because what if he doesn’t celebrate Christmas? Surely it wasn’t offensive though? I usually go with “happy holidays” when I don’t know what someone celebrates, but I guess “Merry Christmas” popped out of my mouth because it was Christmas Eve.

        1. is there such a thing as too PC?*

          I mean I wouldn’t put up any decorations at all in the office, not specifically not on the Jewish person’s door.

          But it sounds like OP is fine with the wreath, just not the blue ribbons.

          1. But Not the Hippopotamus*

            All the discussion has gotten me thinking. I view the door as part of the public space. If the company wants to decorate it, fine. But by making it “my wreath” they have made it look as if I am putting up Christmas decorations or somehow like this – while singling me out as Other… in order to be inclusive! And they wanted appreciation for it.

            I didn’t like the wreaths, but I can shrug that off. It’s the part that kinda forces it on me as an individual that makes me clench my teeth.

            1. But Not the Hippopotamus*

              I would also have been upset to have it left off entirely because that ALSO Others me

            2. DJ Abbott*

              I understand. You feel singled out because of your religion. Either not putting anything on your door when they were decorating other doors, or changing the decoration for your door has the same effect.
              Also, that whole thing of them telling you about it and insisting on showing pictures is weird. Like they wanted your approval or something. That would make me uncomfortable by itself.

        2. allathian*

          A person who looks Middle Eastern can be Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, or atheist, or… Some Muslims, while they don’t celebrate Christmas, don’t object to Christmas wishes because for them, Jesus is a prophet. That said, I do think it’d be insensitive to say Merry Christmas to a person who’s wearing something that visibly marks them as non-Christian.

          That said it’s not always that simple, because people who work in customer service can rarely afford to show that they’re offended by something a customer says. But as far as that goes, wishing a merry holiday that the other person doesn’t celebrate is at the relatively mildly offensive end of the scale. (Drinking age here is 18, and when I worked in a grocery store as a college students and carded people who looked too young to buy beer, I sometimes got threats of assault and even a death threat once when I refused to sell it to them when they weren’t carrying ID.)

    4. Mostly Managing*

      In the moment, you handled it fine. You didn’t erupt, you were polite but not enthusiastic.

      For next year, it depends on how much capital you want to spend and what you want the outcome to be. But this shouldn’t be a huge deal if you are dealing with reasonable, rational people.
      Talk to whoever does the decorating nice and early. Mid-November at the latest.
      Assure them that you know they acted with the best of intentions, but that a wreath is not a Jewish thing and making it blue felt exclusive rather than inclusive. Then tell them what you’d prefer:
      – the same wreath as everyone else
      – a blank door
      – to decorate your own door (if you pick this, I’d love to see a llamas and teapots theme!)
      – some other option that makes you happy

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        “…a wreath is not a Jewish thing…” I agree, but! A few weeks ago, a group of us were caroling in the neighborhood of our church. We would ring a doorbell, ask if they would like a soup or cookie mix, and ask if we could sing a Christmas carol. One lady declined both, said she was Jewish, and pointed out the Stars of David in the wreath on her front door!

        And I agree with other answers. Let it go for now. When I’m crabby, I try to limit putting that on other people. It keeps the drama down.

      2. But Not the Hippopotamus*

        This got me thinking… I think part of my annoyance (a very small part) is that I don’t care about the decorations and don’t want to listen to people talk about decorations that aren’t even up right now like they are super exciting. So, that probably got the whole thing off to a bad start before I even heard about my special blue ribbon.

        Thanks for helping me achieve that insight!

        1. Sister George Michael*

          It’s totally Hanukkah balls, it’s completely reasonable for you to be upset, and if there’s anything worse than people explaining something offensive, it’s when they do so At Length.

        2. is there such a thing as too PC?*

          Ohh I didn’t realize the decorations weren’t even still up. So you wouldn’t have even known about being singled out if they hadn’t told you? Sounds like they’re trying to win “PC points” or something, which is really annoying.

    5. Roscoe da Cat*

      I am with you. IF they are doing wreaths for every season (person in my office does one for winter, spring, summer and fall), I could roll with it. But this is about a religious holiday that is not relevant to you (or me).
      It also drives me crazy when people equate Hanukkah with Christmas. They are not equivalent and stop trying to drag me into your insanity!

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, the thing where “Happy Holidays” is supposed to be religion-neutral… is just not the case. If you wish people Happy Holidays in December, but not when any of the most important Jewish, Islamic or Hindu holidays occur, it’s not inclusive.

        1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

          Why can’t we just celebrate the New Year if people want an excuse to glitter up their space? Even if your religion has its own New Year based on something else, at a different time, we all use the current calendar in our everyday lives. It’s the closest thing I can think of as a common celebratory date for everyone. Or not, and nobody (at least nobody reasonable) gets offended if you want to live your life glitter-free on that date.

        2. DJ Abbott*

          But non-Christians at least get a couple of days off, right? And the new year applies to everyone. Can’t we all take Happy Holidays as good wishes for these days off and/or whatever celebrations are involved?
          Or is there another phrase that would be better to convey good wishes?
          I am and always have been nonreligious, and I’ve always taken happy holidays as a an indication of good wishes. I usually don’t do anything for Christmas and find it a little boring compared to regular daily life, but I’m not offended by people who give me good wishes.

          1. AndieNYC*

            The day off you are referring to is for a Christian Holiday (Christmas) so Jewish people shouldn’t be grateful to get that day off. I would rather not take a day off for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur of my PTO instead.

            1. DJ Abbott*

              Yes, that would be better! But still, it’s a day off you all can use any way you want. Take the opportunity to rest or have fun.

        3. LeAnn*

          In my opinion “Happy Holidays” is inclusive. Everyone where I live recognizes the New Year as a celebratory – or at least noteworthy – event.

    6. *daha**

      Ugh! “We went around and put special markings on the doors of our Jewish employees on our own initiative.”
      I would ask your local Anti Defamation League if they would be kind enough to send a letter explaining that this is a very poor choice indeed, regardless of their intentions.
      You can also do a search on all the complaints against the Wreaths Across America people, who hang Christmas wreaths on all veterans’ grave markers for the holiday, including those with a specifically non-Christian symbol on the marker. You might find some of their language helpful.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        THIS. It was bad enough that they hung the wreaths. To tell OP about it AFTER THE FACT – oy oy oy. They are either making the point that having Jews in the office is a PITA or they’re looking for a cookie for being so “inclusive” or I don’t even know what. I would be FURIOUS, migraine or no.

      2. Not my real name*

        What’s worse about Wreaths Across America is that the founders of the “charity” own a wreath business. And they charge the “charity” full price for those crappy wreaths.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        There are a lot of “charities” that leave me scratching my head, but that one sounds particularly dumb. Exactly what problem were they trying to solve, an overabundance of evergreeen boughs?

    7. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I’m Jewish in the western US and I would do the same thing I do whenever someone tries and misses the mark. I giggle to myself with a “how adorably misguided” thought and move on. I think it’s sort of hilarious when a Goy tries to include me and I look forward to these experiences. To me it’s very much like the lady who gave the vinegar-maker a jar of mold. Hilarious, weird, human.

      1. Lup Taaco*

        Insert Will Smith jpeg “He’s a little confused but he got the spirit!”

        Would it be better to ask that the major Jewish holidays be emphasized instead when the spring rolls around, rather than bringing up the Hanukkah ballsiness of the not-so-secular wreath? (Apologies if I’ve misremembered anything; I am one of the aforementioned “goy”)

        1. mon*

          Honestly, no, please just leave us alone at work. Our holidays are not workplace events and they’re likely to mess something about it up if they try. Just leave us alone and don’t expect us to participate in yours. That’s all we need.

          2. Ali + Nino*

            100%. With this kind of situation, I’d just roll my eyes. I don’t need a tit-for-tat commercialization of my religious observance.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I’ve listened to Jewish friends and family members talk about this. The only consensus is for people to be aware of high holy days and NOT schedule critical work events on them. Everyone’s wishlist includes flexibility to take those days off without conflict. Several suggested that at least one minor company holiday (e.g. Presidents Day) be converted into floating holiday so people of minority religions could take THEIR holiday, be it Yom Kippur, Eid, Samhain, or another.

      2. But Not the Hippopotamus*

        That’s all fine and good… but sometimes I just want to not have to deal with it at work, ya know?

    8. Notjustatree*

      Yeah, I came in to find what was later described to me as a “nondenominational festive tree” decorated in our branding in the lobby of my office area a few weeks ago and thought that that was pretty upsetting. A Christmas decoration by any other name is still a Christmas decoration. Add the layer of marking your door because you are Jewish (yikes, have these people never read a history book!) and this merits some anger. But I get not wanting to aim that at an enthusiastic but oblivious coworker. Is it someone’s job at your office to promote equity and inclusion? Could suggest that they get involved in planning the year-end festivities next year? Fixing this madness is not your job, but presumably it is someone’s job.

      1. But Not the Hippopotamus*

        Honestly, this may be the nail in the coffin for this job. I got a birthday email from the new CEO… using my legal name, that I don’t go by. It would be fine, except they specifically ask for our preferred names when we start. I was already irked by this birthday email, when wreath-gate happened.

      2. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        “Add the layer of marking your door because you are Jewish (yikes, have these people never read a history book!)”

        I’m not even Jewish, and this was the most horrifying thing to me. Especially with the terrifying amount of anti-Semitism these days, how in the world could anyone with a fiber of common sense not get how gross and wrong that would be?

      3. But Not the Hippopotamus*

        A non-denominational Christmas tree doesn’t bother me. Christianity has denominations, so by saying non-denominational, they are saying genetically Christian. Now, if they say non-sectarian that’s another story.

        But that’s probably my own bugaboo.

        1. Observer**

          Nope. I think that a lot of people would agree with you. I feel like, I don’t want to get into the branches of Christianity, so I’ll take your word for it that this tree works for all branches that celebrate. Go ahead and enjoy and thank you for leaving me out of it.

        2. sundae funday*

          It’s a pet peeve of mine when people say non-denominational when they really mean inter-faith.

          1. Tinkerbell*

            Yep – people say “non-denominational” to mean “look, we included everyone! [Everyone *important*, anyway…]” and don’t have the slightest awareness that they’ve just snubbed everyone who doesn’t belong to a religion that splits into denominations :-\

    9. Annony*

      Can you remove the ribbon? If asked, you can say that you don’t mind the Christmas decoration on your door but felt weird about the attempt to make it Jewish with a blue ribbon.

    10. Observer**

      Or should I just let it go since I know I’m extra crabby right now?

      I think you need to let it go FOR NOW, because being crabby is going to make it harder to have the conversation in the way you want.

      But, before next year’s “holiday season”, it’s worth bringing up. Hopefully you won’t be dealing with migraines so you’ll be able to call out the very legitimate problem, but calmly.

    11. Janeric*

      I’m not Jewish so several grains of salt, but I think reacting neutrally when they wanted a cookie for inclusion is ONE reasonable course of action — reacting as if they’d done something off putting and awkward was a reasonable thing to do. I agree with other posters about other potential courses of action if applicable, but making it uncomfortable for the people being weird was handling it well.

    12. But Not the Hippopotamus*

      Thanks for all the perspectives, everyone!

      If you have more, feel free to share, but I’m getting ready for Shabbat now and won’t be back until it’s over :)

      1. Chilipepper Attitude*

        I think I’d go to the boss and say, I was told that during the holiday party, decorations were added to my door to mark it as the office of a Jewish person. This is inappropriate on several levels and I would not want us to break any discrimination laws, can we talk about this, is there a person in charge to talk to?

      2. WoodswomanWrites*

        First, I think you’re smart not to respond when you’re not feeling well.

        How you respond depends on your relationship with the individuals and what your goal is. Are they individuals you could have a heart to heart with and explain why it was offensive? I’m Jewish, and for me personally, I would start with honoring that my colleagues were trying to be inclusive but how they did so was not good. I would share why, and do so in a non-confrontational way, with the intention of having them learn to be more genuinely inclusive.

        I’m thinking of times when I’ve messed up about inclusivity myself. I really appreciated when people told me directly how what I did wasn’t the appropriate response, and these experiences have been very helpful learning opportunities for me to avoid repeating mistakes. Also, my being responsive strengthened those relationships going forward.

        Now if you have the conversation with your co-workers and they are dismissive and defensive, that’s a different story. I would likely escalate the issue to my manager at that point.

    13. SnappinTerrapin*

      I’ve been accused of being a Scrooge, and have been known to say “Bah, humbug!” on occasion.

      I find a lot of Christmas stuff to be a distraction from my own commemoration of Christmas, especially the stuff that syncretizes pagan traditions with Christianity. On the other hand, I don’t object to others celebrating what they want to, the way they want to. People don’t have to please me.

      Whatever the solution may be to decorating the “common areas” of a workplace during any holiday, I think it’s better to let individuals make their own choices about the more personal areas of their workspace.

      This illustrates some of the ways it can go wrong when someone guesses wrong about how to make someone else feel “included.” We need more respect for people’s individual preferences and beliefs, and less effort to homogenize everything in society. Mixing it all up doesn’t necessarily make it better.

      I’d rather view a diverse culture as a tapestry than as a melted blob. The differences can make our society beautiful, because recognizing that is part of recognizing our common humanity.

  11. Roland*

    It’s annual review season and along with the standard stuff I’m used to, my job has a “what rating would you give yourself” section. Never had to do this at previous jobs. How do you approach self-ratings?

    I’m in the newer side (less than a year) and a high performer in general so it feels like I risk underselling myself with a “meets expectations” and coming badly for overconfidence with “exceeds expectations”.

    1. But Not the Hippopotamus*

      I have the same problem. The first time I did this my boss said I was too homogeneous and my grand-boss said I am a harder grader than he is. Now I just try to be as honest as possible rather than think about it. Mind, I had a slider-bar to score with, not categories.

    2. Sloanicota*

      I have struggled with this. I’m from the Midwest so my instinct is to say “meets expectations” and let my boss say if he feels I’ve done better. It feels like bragging otherwise which I’m not comfortable with – plus, I generally feel like I could be doing better in anything. But, there were some years it ended up really dinging my overall performance evaluation and maybe hurt me in the eyes of my own boss! It’s hard, but if I think I’ve done a solid job, I try to pick “exceeds.”

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Some advice I was given on doing self-reviews: Grade yourself up and provide details on why. Don’t wait for your manager to notice your great performance, lay it out for them.
      What specifically makes you a high performer? Think of it like your resume of the year, and focus on accomplishments/metrics if possible. E.g. I completed 15 projects and the office average is 10. I had the fewest customer complaints and was most often requested to provide assistance.

      I worked at a company where self-reviews were optional but helpful since it was an opportunity to include things your manager may have forgotten about, or didn’t realize were big challenges, or otherwise provide context on your performance. It helps to keep a record of your successes throughout the year too (another bit of advice I got).

      1. Tinkerbell*

        This! Give yourself top marks and be ready to provide a few reasons why that’s plausible. This is unfortunately one area where cishet white men are at a strong advantage because they tend to overestimate their own achievements while many other demographics underestimate :-\

    4. kiwiii*

      if you’re unsure of the expected assessment levels and can’t ask, I would pick a few things (33% or less of items given) to highlight as exceeds expectations that you either feel are really important to the people you’re reporting too, you’re doing significantly better in than counterparts or people in the role historically, OR you feel you’re doing above and beyond better than expected, and call the rest meets. you’ll have more info next year.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I’m struggling with the same thing and appreciate that advice (rate your strength as exceeds).

    5. Jillis*

      It’s times like these that I ask myself “how would a White man in my position answer?” I vote put exceeds expectations

    6. Joielle*

      Not exactly the same, but I recently participated in a 360 review with a self-scoring component and I scored myself WAY lower than anyone else scored me for almost every single category. It was eye opening! For a review, I guess I feel like… if your boss is going to give you lower marks than you think you deserve, why make it easier for them by pre-agreeing with that assessment?

    7. Najek Yuma*

      Since you are new to these types of ratings, I’d probably vote for putting mostly “meets expectations” unless there are a few specific areas that you confidently feel you are exceeding expectations in. But as others said, make sure you specify in the review why you feel you exceeded expectations in those areas. Do that the first time around, and then after you have your review you’ll be better calibrated for both how your manager handles these and how the company does.

      I know as a manager I intentionally avoid looking at an employee’s self-ratings before I do my ratings of their performance. I like to have my own thoughts laid out, and then compare to the employee’s thoughts, rather than start from the employee baseline. I’m sure other managers are different. I will say that if I see an employee puts “exceeds” or “greatly exceeds” and I have legitimate performance issues with them, that is very concerning because it means the employee isn’t aware of their failures (even if they’ve been specifically talked to about areas that need improvement).

    8. RagingADHD*

      If there are multiple elements, I’d mention areas for improvement but give an overall high score.

      If it’s supposed to be one overall rating, I’d give exceeds expectations but “show my working” to mention the same things – awareness of some goals to work toward, but high overall.

    9. Roland*

      Thanks y’all. I also asked my manager in our one on one today but she’s new to the company so she’s still learning how leadership uses it and I imagine her own manager will be involved, and she won’t have the final say this year. The rating question just forces you to choose one option, no freeform text. (Lots of freeform text elsewhere in the self-review portion but more general questions and asking for example but no rating). Appreciate hearing how others approach it.

      1. Sloanicota*

        That says more strongly to pick “exceeds” for yourself, as your boss is uncertain and may not be advocating for you. Someone must be your advocate and sometimes it might be you.

        1. Tinkerbell*

          You can be exceeding YOUR OWN expectations, since they can’t possibly expect you to be inside your managers’ heads. If they want to know what the managers think, they’ll need to ask like anyone else :-P

  12. Bummed*

    Just a little bummed today. I thought the bosses would be closing the office early today (as they have just before every other holiday) but so far no note has come about closing early.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        In my old job, once people just assumed it was happening and made plans around it. Then as it got to about lunchtime, someone realised that nothing had actually been announced and thought she’d better check. Turned out there was no plan to close early that day. It ended up with some not very happy people.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      we sometimes get told at 4:09 that we can leave early (we end at 4:30), but of course, we’re all in the middle of something because we haven’t been told anything, so at 4:22 when the supervisors come blazing around to shoo people out the door, it’s a scramble to put everything away, lock down the computers, and get your coat on.

      Not a festive end of the day, thanks.

      1. A Penguin!*

        Not relevant at my current job/today, because anyone who could tell me to leave early is out of the office. But… my schedule is typically earlier than my peers, and I always ‘loved’ it at a couple previous places when bosses would come around and say ‘you can leave at 4:00’ – when typical quitting time was 6:00 but mine was 3:30.

    3. Green Fan*

      I was shocked to get the announcement as typically this day can be one of the busiest of the year.

    4. Gatomon*

      My company usually does this, but I’ve noticed it’s only if it’s the day directly before the holiday/observance of the holiday. So no early release for New Year’s this year since the day isn’t until Sunday and we are observing on Monday. :( But last year I believe we did because we observed the day off on that Friday.

  13. Lesbian in Tech*

    I don’t know if I really need advice or if I’m just ranting. A couple of weeks ago, I got ambushed in a meeting by a coworker who basically tried to order me to never speak to customers again and only go through her. Our jobs are at the same level, although she is older than me and has been in the working world at least 10 years more. I ended up hanging up on the call with her because she simply would not accept that I was not going to agree with her mandate. I took notes during the meeting as I was nervous not having a witness, and immediately called our mutual boss to tell him about this meeting and that I hung up on her. He agreed that it was inappropriate for her to try to order me to not speak to customers and that her comments on my “lack” of experience, “inauthentic” demeanor, etc. were also not professional, but I’m frustrated that it even came to this in the first place.

    Although she went off on personal attacks (and I said shortly before hanging up that her comments were getting personal and not okay), I tried to remain both professional and neutral in this ambushed conversation. I didn’t want to hang up on her, but she literally would not shut up. She’s always been like that, asking a question and listening for two words before she starts to talk over you, and I wasn’t really surprised that she wanted to cut me out of communications because she’s a control freak. But I didn’t say any of that to her face because it’s unprofessional.

    I haven’t spoken to her or had a meeting with her in the almost month since that ambush, but my boss wants to arrange a meeting with the two of us and him to “hash this out.” I’m really struggling with how I’ll stay professional, because I’m angry with her for the obnoxious behavior and I’m also upset with him for not clamping down on her more. I don’t know how she’ll act in this meeting, because when she talked to our boss post-ambush, she downplayed the entire thing according to him. I feel like I’m going to go into this too angry and come off worse, despite being right that she overstepped.

    Ugh, I don’t know what I want. I can’t just stop working with this woman even though I really want to, although I have told my boss that I will no longer have a conversation or meeting with her that does not involve witnesses. I want to do my work and support our customers, but also part of me really wants the justice of this woman getting slapped with actual consequences, which I don’t think my boss will provide.

    1. Jessica*

      Ugh, this sounds like a manager who won’t manage. Is that normally how your boss is?
      I feel like we’ve all seen this so many times—Employee A does something inappropriate involving Employee B, and instead of recognizing that A’s conduct is the problem and actually dealing with it, the manager decides to act like it’s some personality clash that A and B need to work out together.

      1. Lesbian in Tech*

        Lol he literally described it as a personality clash!

        My boss is overall great (gone to bat for me to get a huge raise & bonus, constantly supporting me with taking on opportunities, actually cares about my mental health), but he’s been in a bit of a slump lately I think because of overwork and some frustrations above him. With this woman in particular, he’s only been her boss for about a year and I think he both doesn’t want to deal with her and doesn’t really know how to handle someone being so disrespectful, because the rest of our team gets along really well.

        I’m going to call her Doris for simplicity. Although Doris has been working the same job in our department for several years, she was only recently moved to our team when admin realized her job really belonged in our area the whole time. She was under my grandboss for a few months, and then about a year ago moved under my boss. In that time, I got a huge promotion and started working on larger/more visible projects, and tasks that didn’t fit under my new role have been slowly handed out to others. She took one of those tasks, and that’s what she’s trying to now shut me out of. She wants to be the customer’s sole point of contact, and anything I need to ask them would have to funnel through her, and then their answers funneled back to me. None of our team works like that, and it would be a major hindrance for my job since what I do is literally listen to the customer’s problem and then work collaboratively to build a solution.

        I feel like I should try writing out what I want to say to Doris, starting with the cathartic super and angry unprofessional rant, and then ramping that down into something firm but civil.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Start with this at the core of your approach: “She wants to be the customer’s sole point of contact, and anything I need to ask them would have to funnel through her, and then their answers funneled back to me. None of our team works like that, and it would be a major hindrance for my job since what I do is literally listen to the customer’s problem and then work collaboratively to build a solution.”

          If you can frame it as a simple misunderstanding on her part, that might help defuse the tension (for you and boss; obvs she’s willing to go negative). She’s asking you to change a work process in a problematic way; clarify that the change would add disruption, time, and opportunity for miscommunications, while the current process works to get the best outcome as demonstrated by past performance and current team practice. It sounds like your boss is too willing to only hear “she wants to do it this way, I want to do it that way” and put the burden on you to patch things up. Make it as clear as you can to your boss that this is not your opinion but a proven record of success.

          1. Lesbian in Tech*

            The misunderstanding thing might be a good approach, because part of her personal attack centered on her perception of my “lack of understanding” of how to work with customers, and she compared my role to another coworker who is backend/infrastructure only. The projects we work on are complex, and something a customer requests of me could cross into her area, so under her system, at what point would I have to stop talking to the customer? It’s a large customer base, and if every single request has to first go through her just in case it possibly involves her area at some point, that bottleneck will freeze the entire department.

            1. Tio*

              Yeah, you can ask him, what is it that he would like to come from this meeting as well? Unless she wants to apologize, I don’t see what needs to be “hashed out” in a meeting, and an apology can be sent via email.

            2. linger*

              That’s entirely intentional, as it makes Doris indispensable.
              But creating a single point of failure is never in the best interest of the company.

        2. Tinkerbell*

          Why say anything? She’s way off-base, your boss agrees with you, and she’s not in a position to affect your ability to do your job if you just ignore her. I would go into the meeting acting politely puzzled because of COURSE you have no issue with her, you told her no and you know that such a level-headed and reasonable co-worker would understand that she was in the wrong, so what’s the “interpersonal conflict” again? If she has a problem, she should be encouraged to speak to her boss about it, but her problem doesn’t need to include you!

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Can you say a little more about how your boss behaved when you raised this issue? That will allow you to better prepare for the meeting. IMO the boss should just be having a conversation with your coworker about how out of line she was and not involve you at all, so my spidey senses about your boss are going off.

      It was absolutely the right call to go to him immediately after the ambush call. And it is good that he acknowledged how unprofessional she was being. I wonder if you got the sense that he thinks she had any points? (To be clear, I am assuming she is out to lunch. Just hoping to gauge the boss a bit). Because if the meeting is him hoping you both apologize and the problem goes away you will obviously have to work harder to assert yourself. Calm is the way.

      “Unprofessional” is going to be a key word for you in the meeting as is having some basic talking points in mind so you can keep as neutral and professional as possible (nice work doing that in the initial call! It must have been tough). I am thinking something like “it is not appropriate for you to behave as my supervisor when we are peers”

      I’m sorry this is happening to you. And especially that you are being let down by your boss.

      1. Lesbian in Tech*

        He has had a couple of one-on-ones with her since the ambush and obviously has not divulged exact details to me about what he said to her, but he say that he told her she did not have the right to tell me what to do. He did also say in our immediate post-ambush conversation that he was sorry I had experienced it, and the belittling comments were unacceptable.

        He did say, which frustrated me, that maybe she had a point with being the sole point of contact, although he backed down when I pointed out that I have witnessed how she does not always convey messages accurately (telling customers that only one specific path was possible which threw a huge wrench in their plans, and I stepped in to remind her that a second path which was less of an issue for them was actually approved.) I think he wants people who can act independently and don’t run to him for approval of every little step (which I agree is the best approach for our work), but this is a case where he needs to reel an independent person back in because her judgement is not good.

        Maybe I’m giving him too much leeway, but I really do think he’s burnt out and struggling a little bit, which is why he has avoided taking a more disciplinary route with her.

        1. The Cat's Mother*

          “He did say, which frustrated me, that maybe she had a point with being the sole point of contact, although he backed down when I pointed out that I have witnessed how she does not always convey messages accurately (telling customers that only one specific path was possible which threw a huge wrench in their plans, and I stepped in to remind her that a second path which was less of an issue for them was actually approved.)”

          I’d put something of this into your communication as well. Do people still play what we used to call “Telephone,” where one person whispers something to the person next to them, and that person whispers it to the person next to them, and so on down the line, and the last person says the thing out loud so you can see if/how much it’s changed? That’s not what you want happening between customers and you.

          Intermediaries inevitably introduce errors (unless they are literally forwarding the other party’s messages, in which case there’s no need for an intermediary….

    3. Don’t put metal in the science oven*

      Your instinct to try and be calm is a good one. Don’t be the craziest one in the room. Don’t let her trigger an emotional response from you. Try to write out some bullet points of your narrative & also have some thoughts, facts & examples of things your coworker might bring up. If she talks over you again, say “Manager, this is what we discussed earlier in terms of coworker’s lack of boundaries and unprofessional behavior.”

      1. Lesbian in Tech*

        Bullet points are a great idea! I tend to get flustered in high-stress situations and forget important points. This is probably the therapist in me, but I did think I should try to keep my comments focused on me and my job–the good old “I” statement approach. Having this written out in bullet points ahead of time will keep me from getting sucked into any attempt by her to go personal again.

    4. Purple Loves Snow*

      One of my mantras in situations like this is “be so calm you are scary” … so basically keep your cool and let it roll off your back as those attacks are a reflection of your coworker and not you. Also remember that you can only control how you react to situations, how other’s act is beyond our control.

      For specifics in this situation, all meetings with your coworker are to have a witness or be recorded on Teams/Zoom for review purposes should you be personally attacked again. And all communications between the 2 of you will be in writing with boss CC’d on all emails.

      Good luck!

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And sometimes when you stay calm, the other person gets wilder, trying to get a response out of you. You won’t be the unprofessional person in the room.

      2. Tinkerbell*

        I particularly love a technique I think I learned on here – when someone goes off and is throwing a tantrum, in my head I like to pretend they’re a literal toddler. Outwardly I may be silent but in my head I’m saying “Oh, good job sweetie, using your words! I’m so proud of you!”

        It doesn’t entirely mitigate the problems with idiots throwing tantrums, but it makes it a lot easier to stand there with an enigmatic smile on your face while they make themselves look stupider and stupider :-P

    5. Stitch*

      I wouldn’t apologize, even reflexively. Maintain boundaries and your status that her request was unacceptable. She’s likely to tantrum. Stay calm.

    6. Jessica*

      Of course it depends on the guy and your relationship with him, but I think I would feel inclined to push back at boss first (do you have a standing 1:1 or other chance to talk with him before this 3-way meeting would happen, or can you ask to meet with just him?).
      And I would try to ask him questions like: is this the workflow you want (everything for this client through Doris as sole point of contact), does Doris have authority over me, what exactly are you hoping this meeting will accomplish, if you think I did something wrong please specifically identify it, why does it seem like you’re looking for me to manage Doris when I’m not her manager, etc. Maybe phrased less bluntly, but trying to force him to think clearly about the situation. Because it sounds like Doris is gonna Doris, you’re going to be dragged through some super awkward meeting that does not end in a magical problem-dissolving group hug, and afterwards the management problem he doesn’t want to admit he has will still exist, so then what will he do about it?

      1. Lesbian in Tech*

        I have actually pushed back on several aspects of this with him (we have a 1:1 regular meeting, and I’m part of his strategic team), and I think I’ve gotten through to him a bit on the management missteps here. Part of the issue between me & this woman related to her springing a requirement on the customers that was not reflected in official policy, and when he told me that they told her she was given the freedom to make these unofficial policies, I pointed out the practical ramifications which would create problems for me and others on the team in the future (literally increasing our workload with a restriction we could neither audit nor enforce). He had been in favor of her new policy until then, because he hadn’t fully thought through the tech side of it.

        1. Tio*

          Sounds like she’s good at selling him on something and avoiding the practical details, and he gets taken in on it very easily. It’s nice that he course corrects when practical points are laid out to refute, but a red flag that he seems to be agreeing to things without confirming them with others first.

    7. SofiaDeo*

      I am not sure why there needs to be a meeting to “hash things out.” She was being bossy and inappropriate/making personal remarks, whether or not your boss thinks she downplayed the intensity of it. There will always be people at work who are jerks. I always prefer to avoid them instead of engage them. They aren’t likely to change, and they will say anything in defense of their remarks/actions. In the long run, they aren’t worth the angst to get sucked i to their drama. Ask your boss what he hopes to accomplish by this meeting? Because she isn’t likely to admit to any wrongdoing let alone apologize, and even if she did you know it likely would be insincere, right? So why bother having a meeting? On your end, IMO the difficult part is to wrap your head around the fact that there will often be a jerk a work, and to not let them get to you. I get that it’s generally impolite to hang up on people/walk away in the middle of a convo, but if *they* are doing/saying something inappropriate, it’s not rude on your part. My personal thing, was something along the lines of, to interject a louder “STOP” and them in the short pause quickly say “I won’t continue this unless you can be civil” then hang up/turn around and leave. If it was a phone call, I just simply hung up. I haven’t had a boss really push this, though. There’s no need to have meetings to “discuss” why someone is having an off day at another person, is there? If you would rather not?

      1. Lesbian in Tech*

        I did actually say several times before hanging up “I don’t think this is a productive conversation. You should bring this up with Boss.” She would immediately reply with “why is it not productive” and hence the hang-up. I was actually laughing a little bit towards the end because of the sheer audacity on display.

        I’m willing to have the meeting only because we are still on a big project together, and she already tried to enforce her mandate by contacting the stakeholders without including me (one of them kindly added me to the email thread so I could see that she was completely changing the agreed-upon process.) We actually had a previous meeting like this when she tried to give me orders via email a few months ago, and Boss stepped in to shut her down without me even saying anything.

        This feels like a kind of “last chance” meeting for her. I also think Boss might want to give me the chance to set boundaries and show that he’s supporting me.

      2. Katydid*

        FWIW, the supervisor of the hotline where I volunteered taught us to calmly tell an abusive caller* something like this: ‘I’m going to hang up now. You can call back when you’re not (brief description of abusive behavior’—the only one I remember is the prisoner who was pleasuring himself to the sound of a female voice). Then you hang up. If they don’t hear you because they’re ranting or whatever, that’s their problem.

        *I’m not talking about someone who’s suicidal, but someone—like that prisoner misusing his regular phone time—who is abusing the hotline and the volunteers. It wasn’t common, but it did happen. The technique for handling it helped me ever after.

    8. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I’ve honestly had only good luck with telling the boss straight out, “that wouldn’t be appropriate. This isn’t an issue between two people; this an issue with one person and you need to manage her.”

    9. I'm Done*

      I think it’s obnoxious that he thinks you should “hash it out”. Your colleague was completely out of line and your boss needs to have a conversation with her alone about her inappropriate behavior. Instead he’s doing the condescending and paternalistic version of ‘you two girls just need to get along.’
      How do I know? I’ve been the recipient of that even though it was clear that the other manager (also female) was 100% at fault by refusing to provide me with the information for the area I was taking over from her and by not informing the customers that she was no longer in charge. Among other things, she’d go behind my back and scheduled meetings with my customers. Each of us were in charge of budgets amounting to billions of dollars. So to be treated like I was a child was infuriating and I lost all respect for my manager. Ultimately I ended up leaving because it seriously impeded me doing my job.

    10. *daha**

      Perhaps (and this is a big perhaps) you could ask a rep from HR to sit in on the meeting. Or you could tell your boss that you would like him to ask a rep from HR to attend.
      This sets up the understanding that you were treated badly in the original conversation, and you don’t wish to be diverted from that or to be treated badly again. Bring your notes – or provide them to HR in advance.
      I say perhaps because you may not have an HR department that would be helpful or responsive, and you know your company better than I do.

    11. But Not the Hippopotamus*

      Hash it out often means that one person gets to go off on the other OR boss is trying to get to play peacemaker. If the meeting is anything other than a clear expression of expectations (boss is the only one who changes people’s duties, keep personal comments in your own head) and a demand that professional behavior be maintained, I’d call it a red flag.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Even if it the meeting with Doris is a clear expression of expectations, it’s not good management to involve Lesbian in Tech in the meeting. It sounds like Doris needs a serious talk about whether or not they can stay in the role, and involving additional people is only going to make Doris more defensive.

    12. RagingADHD*

      I mean, there’s really nothing to “hash out,” is there?

      You can go to the meeting and hear an apology, or you can go to the meeting and correct anything she lies about. You can reiterate that it is unworkable and ridiculous for her to make up policies on the spot without any knowledge or consultation about how it affects the rest of the project.

      Then it’s up to your boss to decide how to make this work.

      You have apparently been doing your job just fine for the last month while refusing to have one on one meetings with her. You can keep right on doing that. If he wants things to change, he can come with a solution that doesn’t involve you putting up with this kind of nonsense.

  14. Mimmy*

    I have two things I need help with today. This is the first one.

    TL;DR – Is it ever appropriate to reapply for jobs in the same department / office where you’ve interviewed with before? I have two jobs I’m looking at.

    Job A
    I had a first-round interview in August for a Teapot Specialist position at a mid-sized private university and never heard back. I saw this same job reposted on HigherEdJobs a few times since, including twice this month. Last week, I emailed the HR department about it and was told that the position I interviewed for was canceled, re-evaluated, then reposted under a new requisition number. I asked if candidates for the prior posting (the one I interviewed for) were still under consideration; the rep said I would need to apply under the new posting if I was interested. The details of the position I interviewed for and the new posting are very similar; the only real difference I could find is the education requirement. With the position I interviewed for, a Master’s was required; now, only a Bachelor’s is required but a Master’s is preferred (which I have). The Teapot Services office is small (maybe 3 or 4 FT staff).

    Job B
    In April, I applied for a Teapot Specialist position at the Teapot Services office on the main campus of a large state university (similar to Job A above but a bit narrower in scope but the office has more staff). I was never selected for an interview. In July, I applied for a slightly lower-level Teapot Coordinator position at the same office; I had an interview in August but was not moved to the next round. A Teapot Specialist position has again come up in this office. This position reports to one of two Assistant Directors. My interview in August was with one of them; I do not know if this new position reports to the same AD.

    I’m interested in both positions but worry it’d be too aggressive to reapply. I have no idea whether I was being considered for the next round of interviews for Job A since they had to cancel and re-evaluate the position. For Job B, I’ve applied with this office several times in the last 3 years for various roles; I’ve gotten two callbacks, one of them leading to a first-round interview (the one in August). I should probably cut my losses with this office lol. There are similar units throughout the university system I can look into.

    If I do reapply for either position, should I just send the same cover letter and resume? Could I add something in the cover letter to explain why I’m reapplying?

    Relatedly: I know it’s somewhat common to have to repost a position several times (I think I asked about it before). Regardless of the reasons, do I need to be wary of employers that have to do this?

    1. kiwiii*

      at universities and for state/government positions it’s probably necessary to reapply again to be considered. for job A, they didn’t reject you, they had internal stuff moving the position around. i don’t think tt would be considered aggressive to reapply — if you wanted to add a line about reapplying in your cover letter, keep it to a line.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Yes, reapply for Job A if you’re interested, and you can use identical materials if they still match the current job posting. It could be that they forgot to tick a box on their back end so the thing that needed to be updated has nothing to do with what you’re seeing, but at any rate the applications the committee gets to see is tied directly to that requisition number, so they won’t get to see previous applications. No need to mention why you’re reapplying if its because they reposted it – they know that. It won’t be seen as aggressive, they’ll be glad that applicants are still interested!

      1. Mimmy*

        the applications the committee gets to see is tied directly to that requisition number, so they won’t get to see previous applications.

        Good to know that my continued interest will be seen as a positive. Thanks!

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Yes, reapply. There is a candidate who has applied for two positions in my office. I would love to hire them, but in both cases someone else was a better fit for the position I had open. One of my team is talking about retiring and this person would be a perfect fit – but if he doesn’t reapply I can’t hire them!

      1. Mimmy*

        See, that’s what I don’t understand. Why make candidates reapply when HR could just draw from prior applicant pools when looking to fill the same or similar positions? I used to always see “we will keep your resume on file for future opening”. In your example, why couldn’t HR allow you to contact the person and invite them to reapply?

    4. Samwise*

      Reapply and do not say you previously applied but the job was reposted etc etc. Just apply.

      The people reviewing or running the search may not even be the same people.

      The woman (now retired) who eventually got promoted to director of our program applied twice to our entry level position. Wasn’t even interviewed the first time.

      2019/2020 I headed a search for a mid level position in our dept. Long story, we went straight from resumes/applications to “second round “ interviews (didn’t do phone interviews). Boss sees list of people we want to interview—it has to be blessed by HR before we can invite. Boss says, XYZ has applied twice before and never gets past the phone interview, it’s always a terrible interview. Well, I say, we aren’t doing phone interviews, some people are just terrible at phone interviews, and the committee wants to interview her. If she’s terrible then we won’t recommend her and even if we recommend, you don’t have to hire her. But you charged us with reviewing and interviewing and we’re going to interview her. Which we did. My boss apologized. And hired her. One of our best hires in several years, topnotch. But terrible at phone interviews.

      1. Mimmy*

        I love your examples, especially the second one! It solidifies for me that reapplying is completely okay.

        It’s interesting that an employer could lose a really strong candidate due to weak phone interviewing skills. If you’re able to share with using identifying info, I’m curious what was different about her in-person interview from her phone interview.

        1. Samwise*

          We did zoom interviews. She came across as warm and thoughtful, really knew her stuff. We have a panel interview, presentation, short interaction with the staff, interview with the hiring officer. She had more time to talk than in a phone interview, more in depth questions, more opportunity for her to ask questions too

          On the phone, she came across as awkward and unable answer questions well. I think the lack of visual cues played a part. Also the phone interview is a screening interview, much shorter, couldn’t go into depth.

          More recently I ran a search for another mid level position. No one on the committee felt phone screens were super helpful, so we did 30 minute zoom interviews and had just three pertinent questions that gave the candidates an opportunity to answer in some detail and which gave us a chance to really interact.

          When I’m the interviewee I actually like an initial phone screen— I have my notes (although I don’t read for them — Ive reviewed them really well, and have short prompts in large bold letters laid out to ensure I cover the points I want to make. I also have a clock to make sure I don’t use too much or too little time.

  15. MicroBioChic*

    How do you stay productive when you are super burnt out and unfulfilled at work? I’m taking vacation next week and using that to kick start a job hunt, but I need some tips to help me keep semi focused and productive at work so I don’t burn bridges and screw over my team in the meantime.

      1. rayray*

        I agree. I find it very helpful to make small goals and reach those. For example, you could have a goal of “Find 4 positions to apply to this week” or “Work on resume”. It’s something to keep you motivated and feel accomplished when you can check things off.

    2. Sassy SAAS*

      Standing while working, putting on “work clothes” or sneakers (both can trick your brain into being in “work mode), using timers, headphones to cancel out distractions, breaks, and just knowing that some days you can only be at 20% productivity, even if you weren’t burnt out!

    3. kiki*

      Treating myself for completing things, even if they are basic and wouldn’t have required a reward before. So, like a fancy coffee for getting that report done and to Janet before deadline. Telling myself I can stop working a half hour early if I complete X, Y, Z before then. It’s not necessarily sustainable long-term if the rewards are expensive, but it gets me through the hardest times.

    4. thatoneoverthere*

      I use ASMR to focus when I need to. It helps me relax, as well as focus. I just left a highly stressful job, in which I was incredibly burnt out. I listened to alot of ASMR while I was working.

      Also I did alot of things that really fulfilled me outside of work. Walking and hiking (when the weather was nice), exercising, planning and going adventures with my kids.

    5. Mid*

      If your work is fairly repetitive, I’ve found listening to audiobooks and podcasts can help pass the time and make working feel less like a drag.

      Otherwise, treats help! When I’m dreading something, I go to a coffee shop and get myself a fancy coffee and a pastry to kick start my day with something positive. And I’ve been setting small goals, like “clear 10 invoices in under an hour” and celebrating those.

      Also arranging for fun things outside of work helped me a lot when I was burning out and unfulfilled. I prioritized seeing friends and family, trying new things, joining a sports team, etc. and then also putting in the minimum hours at work and not staying late or working extra.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Doing fun things outside of work has kept me going for 25 years. I joined a music and dance community and I’ve been having fun with them ever since.

  16. Anonymous Today*

    McKinsey & Company – anyone know what it’s like there in terms of culture?
    There is a consulting position in their healthcare section that I’m sort of interested in. I check every qualification they’re asking for. However, from what I can understand their culture might be quite competitive and cutthroat? I also heard from some people that the hours could be quite intense. I’m also curious if anyone knows what their benefits are like?
    My current job has really nice time off and I don’t pay much for health insurance, but I’m at a non-profit so my pay is lower than it would be if I went to private industry. I do make enough for a comfortable living but I don’t want to limit my career earnings if I have a chance to make more.

    1. Lost academic*

      The shift from nonprofit work to a multinational consulting firm is going to be significant. Billable hours, heavier workload, more to juggle, focus on rapid response are all things you should look into closely to make sure the fit will be something you want to try and know what you’re getting into. Time off is also harder to do in consulting because you’re always available. Benefits like insurance are very likely to be much better and you can get the package from HR if you get an offer. After you decide if the regular requirements will work for you, you can see if you can find out about the team/division culture.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        Just wanted to flag that you should check the insurance benefits carefully – my hard-won experience taught me that my *really great with $5 monthly employee deduction* medical insurance at my non-profit was a HUGE benefit that I did not fully appreciate and ended up getting…much less take-home-pay difference at Fancy New Corporate Job once the employee contribution there was taken into account. :/ So worth clarifying very specifically if your NP job keeps that cost [extremely] low for you.

    2. Ellie*

      I don’t work at McKinsey but a big 4 consulting firm, and I can tell you that you can expect intense hours (~60+) when you’re on a study and potentially a lot of travel. Go check out fishbowl – it’s a lot of consultants and you can get the info you’re looking for.

      Also expect to be significantly down leveled if you have no consulting experience and are applying for a consulting role (not a support or research role).

    3. Tex*

      I have not worked there but have friends who are consultants.

      First of all, the average tenure of someone at McKinsey is about a year (that includes all employees, so a significant number of people burn out after a few months). A lot of people can’t handle the lifestyle – get a phone call on Saturday, be on a plane by Sunday night to be at the client site on the other side of the world by Monday morning. Unwritten rule is that clients come first, even at the expense of your personal life; it gets better once you progress up the chain of command. If you are a subject matter specialist, you might have it easier with long term assignments, or research roles (much different than consulting positions). You will be paid well, but not top of the line for consulting because they think the prestige of working for Mckinsey makes up for it. Benefits are extremely good for corporate life BUT a lot of them (in hindsight) are because they are working you so hard – sure you can expense dinner in the office, but that’s because you are expected to work until late in the evening.

      The culture is competitive, you will be surrounded by exceptionally smart people – I have no idea about petty politics, but everyone will be angling to be assigned to prime clients.

      If you choose the consulting route, your life will be your team and you will be around them from morning until post-dinner, yes there will be late nights. So interviewing will very much be about fit and if they like you and if they can imagine wanting to hang out with you. Discretion is prized.

      Those are the negatives. But having McKinsey on your resume, even for a short while, will open so many doors for you in the future. They are very discreet about their clients and who they work for, but every major CEO and most governments have them on speed dial for a reason.

    4. Roscoe da Cat*

      Haven’t worked there specifically, but I will point out the switch of working for a dollar vs. working for a cause. I went from non-profit/government to consulting and I hated the culture of making the client happy as opposed to doing something right.

    5. feeinatree*

      I can tell you that I have worked with a lot of ex McKinsey consultants and they were universally backstabbing and unpleasant to work with. I’ve also been forced to sit through a lot of “listening to mediocre white men state the bloody obvious “ presentations commissioned by them from their old firm. It’s not a place where I would ever want to work.

    6. Educator*

      Yep, they are evil. I went to a school that funneled a lot of people into consulting roles, and so I am good friends with about ten former McKinsey consultants—note that they are ALL former McKinsey consultants. Even coming from our super competitive school, they thought it was super competitive. The travel was insane and so were the hours. It was like they just fell off the face of the earth for six days a week because they were working all the time.

      Also, if you are coming from a nonprofit, I assume you have a conscience. Do you really want to work for the healthcare wing of a company that STARTED THE OPIOID CRISIS?

    7. Anonymous Today*

      Thank you everyone for basically confirming what a few people in my orbit had said too, that this probably isn’t for me. I do think I would like consulting in the healthcare field and would bring a lot of good experience too it, but not at this company.
      I did take a look at their Wikipedia page and there are a lot of things they were/are involved in that are huge red flags.
      I don’t think it will be too revealing if I say that my non-profit is a community blood center, so we provide blood products to local hospitals. Not what most people think of when they think non-profit, but still we’re saving lives and doing something good for people. That kind of mission does make me feel good.

      1. Educator*

        It really should make you feel good! Blood products have saved my life, and the lives of a lot of people I care about. Thank you, and I hope you find the right consulting fit!

      2. Mid*

        On the other hand, a year there could give you great experience and could open a lot of doors, and the compensation could be worth it to stick it out for a year or so. It might not be a good long term fit for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s inherently the wrong choice.

        I recently made a switch to Big Law and there are certainly a lot of culture changes to adjust to, and I don’t love everything that this firm does (but they do also do a lot of good things and a lot of amazing pro-bono work), but I have a lot more room for growth within the company, and having a few years at this firm on my resume will open up so many doors in the future.

        Also, the money is great. And having more income has allowed me to do more work in my community, and to donate more time and money to causes that are important to me. I don’t have to work two jobs anymore. I never wanted to be the kind of person who took a job for the money, but honestly, I’m mad I didn’t do it sooner.

        I’m not saying you should do it, because it’s a company known to be a meat grinder, and I also understand the ethical qualms. But, it’s worth considering what your specific role could look like, who you’d be working with (a great boss can make or break a position), and if it would allow you to go down a career path that you’d ultimately find fulfilling.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I was totally thinking this after Alison did the Twitter stories – we need a whistleblower at SW to share some posts next! I went down a rabbithole last week with some amazing insider coverage of the TSA and the security theater that goes on, and I could see a great series for this blog about regular employees speaking up.

    2. Working mom*

      My BIL is a pilot/captain for Southwest. He was scheduled to fly out on Christmas day for probably a couple day trip. He’ll do several flights over a few days and then have off for a few days. We were curious about how he was doing and texted him on Tuesday I think. He said he was double booked for a flight and was supposed to be doing two at once so he picked the route he liked beat and did that one. Said the call in scheduling was a mess and took a long time just get a hold of scheduling to find out where he was supposed to be.

          1. Observer**

            Yes. Their scheduling system is a royal mess.

            I’ve hears a number of people saying that their systems are way outdated and that they have been dragging their feet on upgrading / updating. I believe it!

            I was listening to an interview about the mess and someone was trying to explain that one of the problems is that Soutwest doesn’t use the same Hub and Spoke systems that other airlines tend to use so they don’t always know where the planes are. If that’s what is happening, that could only mean that their systems don’t actually track what flights are happening and / or which planes are flying which flights. Why would it be any different for the pilots?

        2. Totally Minnie*

          Based on what I’ve read this week, it seems like their scheduling software is based on where everyone would be if every flight took off and landed exactly as scheduled. If something goes wrong, somebody has to go in and manually update the software with the correct crew locations. All the weather related delays and cancellations made them have to do way more manual updates than usual and the system couldn’t handle it, so it started doing completely bananas things.

    3. Roland*

      The New York Times said their that to notify employees of changes, their only official systems are calling them or finding someone to track them down in the airport to tell them. It’s 2022. Wild.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah I read on twitter (so, MMV) that there were crews ready to fly but they couldn’t connect with the dispatch system to get matched with planes and flights, so they ended up timing out and having to book hotels too. The guy posting was saying he hoped they’d get reimbursed by the company …

    4. Observer**

      Yeah, this is a company in melt down. And given how badly they are handling the situation, they may never recover, despite low prices.

      I just saw an article about one incident. People were not being rowdy, but the gate folks called security anyway – and the police threatened to arrest people for trespassing if they didn’t leave the secured area. The airport confirmed that security was called, but the *airline* officially said that they have no idea if this really happened. (and there are videos of some of the interactions as well!)

      1. Paris Geller*

        It’s frustrating to watch this from the sideline as an avid Southwest flyer-the main reason being they’re one of the few airline companies with a good customer of size policy, and I’m a plus-size woman who has had to take advantage of that policy multiple times. I hope they can recover, though I cannot blame anyone who looks at this mess and decides to be done with the whole airline for good.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          Yeah, Southwest until now has been a very easy airline to deal with and about the only one I used pre-pandemic on a regular basis. Now I just don’t want to fly anywhere, though.

        2. Tinkerbell*

          I’ve never flown Southwest (they don’t fly anywhere I or my family lives), but I’ll note that Spirit – despite nickel and diming customers for every little thing – has a few rows of wider-than-usual seats at the front of each plane that are something like $30-$50 more per flight. Their normal seats are on the narrow side – I’m a size 14 and I think I’m about the max that would fit comfortably – but the “extra comfort” section might be an option if you don’t like the usual choices but don’t want to have to upgrade to first class or pay for two seats.

      2. Roland*

        My guess is this won’t have a huge long-term effect on them, unless there’s more severe incidents before they finally upgrade some of their systems. People (myself included) often *say* we’re going to avoid so-and-so in airline travel but when it comes to the booking stage… Money talks. My understanding is that one of their main draws is that they have a lot of point to point flights that the big US carriers don’t. When the alternatives for those routes are so much longer and more expensive due to flying through hubs instead of having a nonstop, it’ll take a lot for folks to switch over imo.

        1. Sloanicota*

          Plus, they’re one of the only airlines where the standard is flights can be rescheduled or canceled last minute with basically no penalty. So when they canceled my holiday flight out, I was actually in a better position than I would have been with most other carriers re my return flight.

    5. MigraineMonth*

      I have a family member that does work with Spirit Airlines, and she was very happy it wasn’t that company melting down.

    6. Samwise*

      It’s too bad their scheduling software sucks so much and they haven’t spent the $$ to upgrade it. (I know that’s not the only problem but it’s a big one). I really like Southwest, partly because their prices are good, but also because their service is stellar. Excellent employees — in the terminal, on the plane, and on the phone. Website is easy to use. Never had any trouble with my bags. Very helpful when I traveled with an infant. Extremely helpful when my very depressed husband lost his boarding pass between the counter and TSA and started to fall apart— I can’t tell you how grateful I am for their kindness and patience.

      Plus they don’t charge for two checked bags, and if I cancel a non refundable flight I can apply the funds to another flight within a year.

      I hope they come thru ok, I’d be sorry to lose them as an option.

      1. Observer**

        I really like Southwest, partly because their prices are good, but also because their service is stellar. Excellent employees — in the terminal, on the plane, and on the phone. Website is easy to use.

        I think that this is why the meltdown is going to hurt them more. Their customer service here has been quite poor. I just saw an article that described their outage page FAQ as “kafkaesque.” Multiple high profile stories of people sleeping on the floor of the terminal because the airline wouldn’t help anyone find transportation / overnight lodging and/or refusing to issue vouchers. Multiple high profile stories of people spending hours trying to get some information and repeatedly being redirected and misdirected (eg phone telling people to talk to gate agents who then tell the people to call customer service back.)

        Also, it’s highly likely to blow up their attempts to get into the business travel segment. Yes, it’s a fairly price sensitive segment, but reliability is still the highest priority. And this mess is going to make anyone who cares about that very cautious.

  18. NewRole*

    I have a low stakes question. I am starting a new job in mid-January and am looking for advice on being in touch with a previous interviewer from the same organisation, who offered me a role I decided to turn down only a few weeks before I accepted this job.

    For further context, I interviewed for and accepted an offer for my new role in mid December. Only 3 weeks before that, I interviewed for a different role at the same company and was offered the role. I decided to decline the role, I was really excited by the organisation but the role itself wasn’t quite what I was looking for. Fortunately I saw another role in a different team at the same organisation straight away which seemed like exactly what I was looking for!

    I won’t be working directly with the first hiring manager, but I expect we will interact at times, I’m trying to decide whether to get in touch proactively with her when I start the job, or wait until we come across each other in our work. I’m leaning towards contacting her during my first week or so as I wouldn’t want to be surprised by it, but I’d really appreciate hearing from anyone who has been in a similar position?

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      I’m a hiring manager and I think you’re overthinking this! It’s not weird that you thought one team was good fit for your goals even though another wasn’t. There’s certainly nothing wrong with reaching out – if you did and said something like “I just wanted to reach out and say hello and to let you know I ended up on Team Y” if she’s a reasonable supervisor, her thought will likely be something like “Oh, good for Team Y, NewRole was a great candidate! Employer is lucky to get them after all.” If you don’t reach out and end up organically running into her, her thought will likely be something like “Oh, good for Team Y, NewRole was great candidate! Employer is lucky to get them after all.”

      1. Interplanet Janet*

        I should have added: Early career I declined a job offer from a university because I got a more local offer and a few months later ended up moving jobs again and working for another university in the system. Part of the job was sitting on a system-wide committee that met once a quarter or so, so I ended up being on this committee with one of the interviewers who offered me the initial job. They were friendly and pleased to see me, and never anything but professional and nice in our time on the committee together. So my answer is rooted in both having been on both sides of this!

    2. DJ*

      They may even think you had both job applications on the go at the same time and picked the one that you felt was the better fit!!

    3. NewRole*

      Thank you both, it’s good to hear that I’m probably overthinking it! I’m sure once I am busy with my new role it won’t seem anything like as important! I’ll probably see how it goes in the first week so I can get a better sense of how much we’ll interact :)

  19. Time zones*

    Anyone work remotely for a company that’s many time zones away, and wants you to keep to their hours? How is it going for you?

    I’m currently in the interview process for a company like this, and I’m feeling uncertain. My current company is laying people off like crazy, so there is urgency to my job hunt.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Ooh I will be interested in the replies to this! I didn’t take it, but I was seriously considering a remote job based on the West Coast (I’m on the East Coast) that would have required me to keep their hours. That seemed maybe doable if everything else was perfect, but already a strain. I can’t imagine managing a bigger time difference.

    2. Roland*

      I haven’t specifically faced this but I’ve worked at multiple jobs that span the US and they’ve both had “core hours” that are reasonable on both coasts. Sometimes meetings are scheduled after these so east coasters are at a disadvantage but I still think it’s miles better than no acknowledgement at all of multiple time zones. That said, if you don’t MIND working their hours then go for it, but do it clear-eyed.

    3. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Not me, but a coworker told me about his experience with this.
      He said that while the job was flexible and WFH, he had a weird day. Like up at 5am for Europe calls, long break during the day, but then late nights for Asia calls. He said it was ok when his kids were little, but he got very tired of it. Said it felt like working ’round the clock after a while.

      1. Tinkerbell*

        I worked for a while writing English workbooks for a company that did test prep materials, primarily for kids from non-US countries who wanted to attend US colleges. My boss bounced among San Francisco, Seoul, London, and Dubai. I never knew what time zone he was in and unfortunately I had a lot of issues come up that required his input before I could proceed further. I technically could set my own schedule as long as I got assignments in before the deadline, but this meant a LOT of “email, see if he replies immediately, check every two hours until he does, then get back to work” kinds of days. When you have a 48-hour turnaround, randomly losing eight hours every time you have to email your boss really messes with you.

        Ultimately I quit that job because I had a newborn and they always wanted me to make corrections for free, which dragged the amount I was actually making per hour down below minimum wage :-\

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I have two experiences, but only 1-2 hour differences in time zones:

      *1 hour difference (i.e., 10am local = 9am work)
      This was amazing for me. I really liked having the option to have a lazy morning, schedule appointments, exercise, generally wake-up, etc.

      *Two hour difference (i.e., 10am local = 8am work)
      Did not enjoy this setup at all. I’m not a morning person, so it’s a push for me to start work on time (7:30 am is the earliest I manage and that’s still late, since it’s 9:30 am there).

      1. allathian*

        I’m the opposite, I’ll happily sit at my desk by 7 (WFH) or 7:30 if I have to go in to the office, but I’m practically useless for anything but routine work after 3 pm, unless I’m working to such a tight deadline that I get the energy to push through from adrenaline. But I also know from experience that this isn’t sustainable for very long.

        Admittedly I shower in the evening rather than in the morning, so that saves at least 30 minutes because my hair takes so long to dry and style, even if I work in a casual environment and don’t do much personal grooming because I don’t wear makeup, only moisturizer in October-February and sunscreen in March-September.

        I’m very happy that I work in an environment where the core hours are 9-3 and we have a lot of flexibility beyond those. That early morning lets me get the jobs that require deep focus with no interruptions done without having to put myself on DND all the time.

    5. WestsideStory*

      See if you can clarify whether they want you to be available or on the clock for those specific hours on a daily basis, or just as needed. Are they asking you to shift your actual work hours to theirs? I’ve had a few positions where (living on New York time) I had to be available 5 am for regular scheduled phone meetings with Europe, and then be available to respond immediately to email requests from West Coast or Asia that went on into the evening hours. But I did not have to be in the office so did those calls/email sessions WFH. I didn’t mind it as it was only say once or twice a week and was able to get into the rhythm of it.

    6. Mid*

      I’ve done work with East and West Coast, so like 4 hour differences. Working West Coast time on the East Coast is much nicer than working East Coast hours on the West Coast, imho, but neither was that terrible. I didn’t do either long term though.

      It’s all about what you get used to though. I know plenty of people who work on teams with an 8+ hour time difference, and while it can be weird when starting, they’ve all adjusted in time. One of my friends is East Coast US and works on a team primarily in India, and likes that her work hours don’t line up with local business hours, so she can do appointments and shopping while everyone is at work.

    7. Anon for This*

      Honestly, it depends on the job. I was hiring for a position in public relations where the employee needs to be able to respond to the press in a timely manner. One candidate lives in Asia, but insisted it would not be a problem to work the night shift for them, day shift for me. I am always willing to be flexible with my employees, but this seemed like too much of a stretch so I hired someone else.

      1. Professional Button Pusher*

        I’ve been remote in 2 different international organizations that span lots of timezones for 8+ years. My current org is in central EU, I’m in US central time, and my co-workers span all the way around the world from US west coast to Tokyo. I’m only required to overlap with the EU folks for half of my day (~7-11am) and I can say that the constant early meetings get old fast, especially pointless meetings and last-minute meetings with invites sent during the night while I was asleep. I’m a morning person, but I’m also a runner and I work best when I can get my run in before work starts. That’s often not possible before 7am in winter (ice + darkness = badness), so I shift my personal schedule around during certain months, which gets the job done but makes me a grumpy person. I’d say it’s not my ideal schedule, but it works, and I really like my job. One thing that’s helpful is that other colleagues have the same (or worse) situation with the early mornings, so there’s some camaraderie and some equally bad hair during those early calls. If I was the only person working shifted hours, I would have different feelings about it.

      2. Tinkerbell*

        My cousin lives in New Zealand but attends MIT in the US. When COVID hit, students were all sent home to do classes online… which was 18 hours off. His family lives in a TINY apartment, so he essentially barricaded himself in his bedroom for a year so he could go to class at 2 AM every day without disturbing everyone else. It was doable, but it’s not something I’d choose long-term!

    8. New Mom*

      When my husband goes to England he works East Coast hours and he says it sucks. It’s like 2pm-10pm. He’s not a morning person so he doesn’t get up early and make the most of the morning so it ends up feeling like he’s working constantly.

    9. An Australian in London (currently in London)*

      I often work IT contracts across large time zone gaps where I kept the client’s hours: US East Coast / London (5 hours, not too bad); US East Coast / Melbourne (19 hours, also not too bad in the opposite direction); London / Melbourne (11 hours, very challenging).

      I inverted my life for the latter. I’d work 8pm – 4am local time, and I need at least a couple of hours to transition from work to sleep. It needs work space far from living & sleeping space. I don’t see how it would be possible with children. It messes with my health some too

      Tips: dedicated work space with a door; treat natural light and outdoor time as mandatory self-care; consciously plan meal and exercise times; consciously plan date/family time; ask for some forbearance, eg. do you have to keep identical hours or is it enough to have a core overlap?

      Good luck!

    10. Never Knew I Was a Dancer*

      I live 3 hours ahead of the official company time. I worked out a schedule I can do a couple days following hours in my own time zone, but even then it’s hard. By the time I get to those days, my brain is in Other Time Zone mode and used to late morning start times, so I end up working their time zone anyway, or feel like I’m missing out somehow when I sign off at a normal hour in my time zone while other people are in the middle of their workday still. It messes up my “life” schedule now that I don’t really have evenings to do things like cook or do anything but space out and be tired. It’s not sustainable for me beyond a year or two, tbh. But meanwhile, I have coworkers with similar or worse differences who have been doing it for that length of time or longer.

      FWIW, it would be easier if I were ahead of their time zone. I’m not a natural morning person, but that would give me the evenings to spend time with family and friends when they’re available, or enjoy my off time (three extra hours in the morning = mind constantly focused on the countdown to when I have to clock in).

      If this job would have you on a more drastic shift—say, working from 3am – 12pm or 5pm – 1am—I can only say proceed with caution, especially if pay and benefits aren’t drastically better. Spend a week living on that schedule and to see what it makes possible and impossible in daily life. Pay attention to the minor annoyances during that time—they’ll grow over time if that becomes your daily life.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      Functional companies that have remote employees and don’t suck at having remote employees have remote employees work standard hours in their own timezone, not in headquarters’ timezone. So unless you specifically wanted to work those other-timezone-hours, I’d take it as a red flag that they do this.

    12. pcake*

      I have worked remotely since 1996.

      A while back, I worked for a local company that used graphic artists in the Philippines, and I managed them on ICQ. I also worked with many people around the world who needed me to be available during their working hours.

      Honestly, I’m a night owl, so that part worked out fine for me. Except when I needed to deal with medical appointments, jury duty and other things that required local business hours. I found it very hard to deal with morning appointments as my options were A) deal with them before going to bed but while very tired or B) deal with them on very little sleep or C) when possible, which it often wasn’t, get late afternoon appoitments.

      Other than that, it worked out fine for me. I still work with people in Europe, but now I only need to wake up, read and respond to emails, and then I can head back to bed.

  20. Mimmy*

    Second question: Job applications!! They always stump me.

    I have particular difficulty when filling in the Employment Experience and References sections. First, when filling out the employment section, are they usually only looking for paid employment, or do internships (unpaid) and volunteer experiences count? I know those can go on your resume, but I never see anything in applications that allow space for adding volunteer work, which for me mainly consisted of committee involvement.

    Second, the employment section sometimes asks for the name and number of the employer and supervisor. When providing a list of references (often asked up front in my experience), do I list those same supervisors, or should they be different? Sometimes, supervisors are required to be included in this list.

    Thanks!

    1. Mimmy*

      There was *supposed* to be a “first” question but it appears to be caught in moderation. Just an FYI in case anyone was confused lol.

    2. Lesbian in Tech*

      I’m not sure about the first question, but right after I graduated, I included my unpaid internship as work experience because it was actually a requirement to get my degree. I work in a completely different field now, though, so YMMV.

      For the second, I have listed supervisors as references where there’s a separate “list past supervisors” section in an application, and never had trouble with it. References seem to be the most finicky of requirements!

    3. A Penguin!*

      In my opinion internships count, whether paid or unpaid, but volunteer does not.

      References can be the same as the listed supervisors, but don’t have to be. They should still be somewhere with oversight over your tasks – I’ve sometimes used a grandboss or a peer of my direct manager (who still oversaw parts of my work), but most of the time my references have been direct managers.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I would be ok with volunteer IF it was substantial, regular, and required skills that are relevant to your current target job.

        So, ushering at the community theatre, not so much. But putting in 10-12 hours a week in the box office and business office, sure. Or being on the publicity or fundraising committee during fundraising season if it also included substantial boots on the ground to do the actual work (as opposed to delegating).

        1. Cat Lover*

          Agreed, for example, I’m a volunteer EMT. I have a state license, run an ambulance etc. I’m looking at switching to medical jobs full time and yeah, my “volunteer” position is almost more important that my full time job (in a medical-adjacent role).

  21. DivergentStitches*

    Friends, I’m at a crossroads and haven’t decided what to choose.

    I currently work in a project management role that’s classified as a client service role (and thus underpaid by about $20,000 per the market). It’s on senior leadership’s desk to reclassify us, but who knows when or if that’ll happen.

    My manager knows I need more money and that I’ve been looking within and outside the company for a better paying job. He REALLY wants to keep me and rated me as outstanding in my performance review, and he tells me I’m getting a 7% raise in March (usual raises are about 3%). That’ll be a nice bump but I’ll still be underpaid by about $15000 per the market.

    Manager tells me I’m going to be receiving an offer for an internal role soon. I don’t know what the offer will be but I assume it’ll be a few thousand more than I’m currently making. It’s for a data analysis role, which I thought I wanted to move into (I recently got a data analysis certificate), where I’d get to learn SQL. BUT I’ve heard it’s a slower paced role and I do tend to get bored easily.

    So — do I stay where I am, getting a nice pay bump in March and where I love the work I do, the team, my boss, etc. but am underpaid, but possibly being reclassified next year into a title that has a lot of upward potential here or elsewhere (project management) ?

    Or do I take a data analysis role that’s less client facing, possibly making more $ but probably not where I’d like to be, that will teach me skills I want to learn but might be slow and thus boring for me?

    I know ultimately it’s up to me and not a bunch of strangers on the internet but I’m really wondering which of the two – project management or data analysis – has a better future in the wide world. It’s in benefits administration if that matters.

    Thanks!

    1. Marissa*

      Personally I would try the data analysis role, IF the pay is equal or higher to what you’d get after your raise. It’s a very hot skill, and if you do go back to project management it’ll still be great to have on your resume.

      2. Tio*

        Yeah, if you know you want the analysis skills no amtter what, take the data analysis job; it’s not going to be LESS boring later, and you have an opportunity to do it now, so take it while you can, I’d say. The caveat is if that’s also very underpaid; then probably just jump ship altogether.

        Whenever something has been “on the desk” for reorg/reclassification/restructure/whatever, it seems to almost always end up dying there unless something big happens. If you think it “might” happen next year, treat it like it’s not happening.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’d lean toward the more appropriately compensated job. And take it as your personal challenge to find ways to make it a less boring job — maybe there’s additional projects you can spearhead (using those project management skills) that will use the data for nice juicy purposes that other teams don’t have bandwidth for.

    3. cleo*

      I don’t know the answer about the future of the two fields but I do know that for me, doing interesting work with people that I like working with is really important for my mental health and well-being.

      It sounds like you might have to leave your company in order to earn what you’re worth. So which of these two jobs puts you in a better position to get the next job, one that pays what your worth and that you’d enjoy doing?

      1. Tinkerbell*

        This this this! I assume your company underpays across the board, so even if you got promotions you’d still pass up a lot of money if you stay there. Much better to position yourself well, look for your dream job at your dream salary while you’re comfortably employed and can afford to be picky, and wait for the right one to come along. Keep in mind that the longer you accept a below-market salary, the more the next job (and the next and the next) will be likely to underpay you too – everything gets framed as a % raise based on your starting pay (which is often set based on your previous job). The sooner you can get yourself up to competitive rates, the better your late-career earnings will be.

    4. Parenthesis Guy*

      A data analysis role where you’d you get to learn SQL? Is that it? That’s not going to take you very far by itself.

      Data analysis has a better future. But it’s not something you can just learn on the spot. If it was easy, everyone would do it. You’re already a project manager and that has a perfectly fine future. If you’re happy being a project manager, then I’d stay there.

      1. DivergentStitches*

        Problem is that because my job isn’t classified as a project manager right now, it doesn’t count as experience. So I can’t get another one that requires experience. And can’t ask my company to pay for a PMP certification.

        I’ve got a data analysis certificate and experience working with data, but no SQL experience and this would be my first official data analyst job.

        I am also hoping for an external job offer that would be my first choice, but I may not get that.

        1. Hen in a Windstorm*

          I very much disagree with your assertion that it “doesn’t count”. Your handle makes me think you might be struggling with literalism here. This is exactly like when people write to Alison asking about “my title is X, but I’m really doing Y, how do I note that on my resume?” You are doing PM work, so apply for PM jobs.

          In my personal example, I was called a “Training Analyst” which was a holdover from a previous department name that didn’t even exist any more. I was trying to get my title changed right before I got laid off. So on my resume, I put my real title and then the more accurate description afterwards in parentheses: Training Analyst (Senior Analyst).

          So in your case, you could write Client Services Manager (Project Manager). Then describe all the PM work you are doing in your bullet points.

    5. I edit everything*

      Could you go by the department of the data analysis job, talk to the team you’d be working with, like a low-key informational interview, to get a better idea of the daily flow, the people you’d be working with, etc.? That might help with the decision on the “love my team/boss” front.

      Also, I’m not sure that you can’t apply for other project management roles that require a certain amount of experience. If you write your resume right, you can emphasize that even though your title/classification isn’t “Project Manager,” you’ve been doing PM work. That counts as experience in many contexts.

    6. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      As a Data Analyst now working as a Project Manager, I would give my left arm for a position that would teach me SQL on the job. I’ve tried to learn but I’m pretty bad at traditional education, I learn best when I have to use something related to my job from the get-go. I like being a PM and it pays well, but I could get paid far more as a Data Analyst with any kind of coding skill.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Oh, and just a note, I know some PM’s make a ton of money, but like the Data Analyst role, I have no certifications or formal training in project management. I’m not in a role where they would pay what someone with their PMP cert would be asking for.

  22. VetStudent*

    I’ve been feeling guilty about maintaining boundaries in a job where the scope of the job has expanded – basically looking for reassurance that I’m not being a jerk here.

    I’m a professional student and work a part time student job. When I applied for the job, it said weekend duty only which was perfect for me because I can’t usually work after class on weekdays because I’m a single dog parent and have to get home. When I got hired for the job, there had been a miscommunication between the person that posted the job and my actual supervisor. My supervisor expected me to work at least one weekday. I basically said, I’m sorry but if that’s the case I can’t keep the job. The miscommunication was worked out and clarified that it was only for weekend duty.

    Since then, the scope of the job (there are about six of us that do it) has expanded to where a student is expected to cover every weekday and they are constantly asking for people to work additional hours during weekday mornings. I have consistently said, sorry, I am only available weekends (except for some rare occasions where my schedule lines up to work a weekday).

    I kind of feel bad as I watch my fellow student workers work weekdays and I only do Saturdays. However, the Saturday shifts are typically longer and complex and I get really positive feedback from those I work with so I’m doing a good job. But I worry about worsening my opinion with my supervisors because this is a hard line that I’m holding based on the position I applied for. Thoughts?

    1. Roland*

      You should stick to your hours, and also yeah it might change some supervisors’ opinion of you. As long as you’re getting hours, so be it.

    2. Rick T*

      You aren’t a jerk, you are maintaining the boundaries you set and enforced when you took the job.

      You don’t know what the other people’s situation is, they may not be able to take on weekend work and prefer more weekday morning hours.

      Being “fair” is offering extra hours to all the employees, it doesn’t matter that they take all the weekday morning hours and you take none.

    3. Double A*

      I feel like when you work a part time job, especially a very part time job, people know that job isn’t your first priority and they can’t expect some of the flexibility or pitching in that might be more expected from full time work. I wouldn’t even think about it if I were you.

    4. fgcommenter*

      You’re not being a jerk for sticking to the agreement. People like to push for more, but that doesn’t obligate you to give it to them.

    5. SofiaDeo*

      Job scopes aren’t set in stone, but your life needs as a student are (temporarily). They can ask for more than what your life allows. Doesn’t mean you are obligated to give it. *They* decided you are worth keeping even though unavailable for work during the week, remember. Please don’t feel guilty about it. No reasonable supervisor is going to “have a bad opinion of you”. Is there a possibility that this may actually turn out to be a deal breaker for the new expanded job, that they *must* have someone available at least one weekday as well as weekend? Perhaps. Job needs are, what they are. Your availability is, what it is. When they work well together, great. But if/when they don’t, it’s not a personal failing of yours. If the repeated asks are polite/neutral, no harm in asking, right? And since you *do* accommodate when your schedule lines up, it’s not like you are even permanently refusing. If the repeat asks are accusatory/hostile, with eye-rolling, etc. when you say “no” that’s a different story. But *your* hiring agreement specifically was for weekends only, and even though the job itself has changed doesn’t mean you should have any guilt about not being able to change. Just continue to do your good work, and if it ever comes to where they *must* have weekday coverage more regularly, so be it. Remember, this is business, it’s not personal!

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      “I kind of feel bad as I watch my fellow student workers work weekdays and I only do Saturdays.”

      Alternative perspective, from a former student worker (now graduated): I worked extra hours because I needed the money. So, if we had been coworkers, you would have been helping me since that’s less competition for those shifts.

      1. Mid*

        Yeah, as a student worker, I loved being able to take extra shifts, especially in the mornings. For every student who doesn’t want the work, there’s at least one who does. OP, don’t feel bad about sticking to your schedule.

  23. rr*

    A number of weeks ago on the weekend thread there was a comment about how the people here had helped somebody find new employment options. I would love that too (I have been job searching for over a year, with very few results, and obviously no job), but am unclear what kind of background I can give without being too identifiable. Something that I’ve seen suggestions for is data entry. I wouldn’t (or don’t think I would) mind that, but I haven’t found any jobs like that where the pay is going to make it worthwhile.

    Some things I think would be ok to say without giving too much information:
    I have a couple of degrees, but I’ve never used them – they are not “practical” degrees, or at least haven’t been for me.

    I do a lot of data entry right now, but also a lot of customer service work.

    I don’t think I’m particularly good at anything, but I don’t know if that is because I’m not particularly good at anything, or because I haven’t really had many jobs (been with my current miserable place for many years – basically since I’ve been employed).

    I think I’m a hard worker and I think basically pretty reliable, but I don’t want to be that to be the basis of why I’m employable anymore (or at least not the only thing, anyway). I have zero interest in managing people.

    I can certainly use computers adequately for what my current job entails, but it is pretty low level too, so I don’t know how good my computer skills are/could be. I learn best by doing though.

    I know all of that doesn’t really say much though. I’ve looked locally, but I haven’t found anything that is local enough. There really isn’t that great a job market where I am. Because of that, and because I’m really not able to commute, I really am looking for something remote and ideally, flexible. I see jobs like that described here all the time, but the people don’t usually say what the jobs are – or if they are only for upper-level people.

    I would love recommendations – or at least recommendations about what I can say here without saying too much. What I do right now is both pretty specific to my current job (so I don’t want to say too much) and pretty general – administrative stuff, customer service, data entry. None of which seems to pay anything – at least where I am now – and/or which I don’t have enough of a background in either.

    I guess I’m asking for help figuring out what I can do when I grow up and get a real job. But you know, one that is decent and not a temp/contract job, since I need the benefits and the income, being in my forties with no retirement and health concerns.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Try the transferable skills tool on myskillsmyfuture.org. You’ll put in an occupational title that you’ve had (or, something that’s more or less close to what you’re looking for) and it’ll show you comparisons to other similar occupations. Click on all of the tabs and buttons to find out more info.
      Then, if you see something that you’re interested in, either click the jobs tab for current postings, or do a job search for that title in your favorite job board to see what’s actually out there.
      Once you find a posting that’s sorta interesting, then look at that company’s whole careers page to see what else is available because maybe there’s something interesting there too. And if you really want to see what people do and what the career ladders can be, go to the company’s LinkedIn page and look at the employees who have profiles so that you can spot who they are, what they do, and how they got there.
      Pay attention to what gets you curious or excited. That’s where you should direct your attention.

      And if you’re in the US, go to your local career center — find it on careeronestop.org — because there are people who will talk to you about this for free.

      1. rr*

        Thank you. I’m going to check out the skills website more: when I went there a little bit ago it suggested shipping clerks and postal worker, so I’ll have to dig a bit deeper.

        As far as the local career center, I went there a number of years ago (pre-pandemic) and they were…not helpful. I don’t think they really knew what to do with me. Where I live there are a lot of service/manual labor jobs and not much else (at least that I’m aware of), unless you have a highly technical background. They gave me some handouts and a list of websites to check out and said I could come back if I wanted them to look at my resume. I guess it might be worth trying again though.

        Thank you.

        1. Cookie*

          It gave me what I already do: administrative assistant. If I just put in “administrator,” it assumes I have computer science or data science degrees. Maybe there’s some trick to getting it to work? I soooo want out of this line of work.

    2. cleo*

      Do you have any experience with digital communications? Like updating a company website or sending emails using something like MailChimp or maintaining company social media? There are quite a few jobs in the sector that require some comfort with technology but definitely aren’t programming jobs. Things like web specialist or digital communications specialist.

      What sort of data are you entering and are you doing anything with it besides entering it? Data management is usually more lucrative than data entry. Does the data entry you do involve a CRM (customer relationship management)?

      1. rr*

        I do mail merges for email “blasts” (I use the term very loosely) sometimes. I am responsible for updating the shopping portion of the company’s website – but that requires almost zero technical skills.

        Data entry – I’m primarily reviewing (and where appropriate) and correcting for accuracy. I do a lot of what I think of as nitpicking. There is no CRM system where I work. We use the most basic of technology. I do 95% of my work in one computer program + email. I am going to look at data management jobs though! Thank you~

    3. Trisha*

      Government – any level of Government. There are lots of opportunities that often require “a degree” but it’s more of a screening tool. And often times experience in admin, customer service (or client service as they call it) and data entry are exactly what they are looking for.

      I started working in government 21.5 years ago and it was what gave me a career instead of just a job. The bureaucracy and red tape can get to you sometimes but the benefits far outweigh the negatives. I progressed from a call centre agent, to a trainer, to a quality assurance manager, to project management, to manager to senior manager. And while it’s corny, if you get a position that truly helps the citizens of your country, there is a sense of purpose. Starting in the call centre I spoke with seniors and people who had lost loved ones and it…made things real for me – that I was actually helping people who had no where else to turn. I sometimes hate my job (doesn’t everyone?) but as I’m nearing the end of my career (I’ll be leaving in 3.5 years when I reach 25 years of federal public service), I can look back and know that I made a difference.

        1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

          And not just federal government, but state and local government jobs. If rr is near a county seat, there are usually court-adjacent jobs, which can be state or local, depending on what court system and the size.

        2. Samwise*

          Admin asst jobs are hard to fill in higher Ed and good admin asst can move to better depts and get promoted too. Pay may not be as good but usually benefits are, especially if you’re working in a state university or community college system.

          We’re on our third admin asst in five years. They love working in our office but we can’t pay enough. First one moved to a better funded dept that allowed more remote work. Second one is now in one of our department’s professional positions, which pays a lot more than the admin job (they had the background). Third one: hoping she stays a couple years, she’s excellent.

    4. scurvycapn*

      Take a look at county government jobs. Before we met, my wife was doing temp jobs, went to the county job center, and found out the county was hiring. She got hired at the county Job and Family Services. She started in an entry level position processing Medicaid applications that she described as “glorified data entry” (no client walk-ins, face-to-face interviews, etc.)

      After a while, she took the jump to a full eligibility worker (interviews, etc.) and got hooked on catching people lying in their applications. A few years later, she got promoted into the investigations unit. Now she gets to play detective all day, calling out BS from crosschecking DMV records, Facebook posts, subpoenaing employers and other organizations.

      She makes $26/hr which is pretty decent here in Ohio.

      1. rr*

        Thank you both for the government suggestions. I have been applying – and have applied in the past – for these jobs, particularly the really local ones. I used to apply for the ones in the state capital, but they are just too far away. I will continue to look though!

    5. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Two things: mynextmove.org – it’s a website of the Department of Labor, but also a job search aggregator. So you can run your search and then run it again to get results from different websites. (Their front page literally asks “what do you want to do?” and one of the options is “I’m not really sure”.)

      Flexjobs.com – since you are in an area with limited options, look into remote work. Flexjobs is almost all remote, has been around for years, and has a great reputation. This is partly because you have to pay for a membership to use it (1 month is $25) – they use that money to pay people to vet all openings, so there are no scammers.

      Good luck!

    6. Happy 2023!*

      I see that you said you have a number of degrees. If you mean masters/PhD, rather than multiple BAs, check out the Facebook group The Professor is Out. In “Files,” they have a resource document that translates typical academic skills to industry skills. This might enable you to level up as well because many academic skills are higher order thinking skills that command higher salaries. Lots of great stories if you search for #howididit. Good luck!

  24. She Thinks She's Susan Dey*

    Are there any non-obvious jobs where business formal is still a thing?

    I’ve worked from home for my job long before the pandemic started, and spending the better part of a decade working from my apartment in pajamas has made me miserable. I want an in-person job where I get to wear a suit and heels every day, but my impression I get talking with friends in white-collar jobs is that their offices axed their dress code in lieu of giving employees PTO et al.

    So yeah – what are the job options if I don’t want to be a corporate lawyer, but I would like a job where I get to dress like one?

    1. rayray*

      It seems like a lot of finance type jobs still have people dressing up to go in to work. At least this was the case pre-pandemic when I was working in downtown of my city. The majority of people you saw were in business casual or business formal.

    3. A Penguin!*

      I don’t know how obvious you consider any of these, but: a lot of sales jobs, much of finance, management at some places (becoming less prevalent, but still around). In general most places you look, the higher up the org chart you’re looking the nice the dress code gets (whether written or just implied).

      Also, pretty much everywhere I’ve worked (engineering) the dress code has been casual or business casual but you can dress much nicer/more formal if you want. Dress codes are generally a minimum formality not a maximum. If you do it once in a blue moon people will think you have an event or interview, but if you do it every day it just becomes part of who you are – and generally in a modestly-positive way. My last company it was common for meetings to include (roughly equally senior) people in both shorts/t-shirt and 3-piece suit and nobody commented on either end of the spectrum.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Back when I worked in an office I tended to overdress compared to my coworkers who mostly stuck to business casual. I love fashion and had a shoe addiction, so people just realized it was a quirk of mine.

    5. Avery*

      May or may not be obvious, but it’s not just CORPORATE lawyers who have the fancy dress code. Any law profession where going to court is happening regularly, the lawyers will be wearing suits when doing so, and often the rest of the office will do the same or similar. Though to be fair, Covid’s changed that some too, since Zoom court is sometimes still a thing…

    7. SofiaDeo*

      I always wore what I felt like, which was more like “the bosses” than the staff. I got offered more projects, etc. John Molloy used to say “dress like the job you want, not the one you have.” It worked well for me. Unless you are taking a job where a suit/heels is impractical and would interfere with job duties, just go for it. Deflect the comments with “oh, this is really comfortable” or “oh, I really like this look” if anyone even comments. I remember responding to one person who commented on my heels’ announcing it was me was coming down a hallway, with a smile and “that’s why I wear them.” We all had a good laugh.

    8. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve been a fundraiser at large institutions (universities and hospitals) and the dress code is typically business, business casual occasionally, and business formal for events. Obviously, the regional culture plays a role and East Coast tends to be more formal than West Coast.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        Unless things have changed since I retired, the fundraisers in our cultural institution’s Development Division all wore fashionable clothes – mostly colorful (as opposed to business conservative) suits, and the office staff wore dresses or nice slacks. The organization’s executive office staff dressed nicely, too. The rest of us were happy slobs!

    9. strawberry ice cream*

      I work in an engineering company. The engineers are all business casual, but it wouldn’t be unusual for anyone in the finance dept or admins to wear suit/heels.

    10. An Australian in London (currently in London)*

      One London bank •requires• business suit to work in the office, even for back office roles with no customer contact.

      (Oddly, London requirements for men’s business suits does not include ties. My beautiful tie collection is useless here.)

    11. Generic Name*

      From what I understand, region matters as well as industry. Some east coast companies are more likely to follow business formal. Same with working downtown in a major metropolitan area versus a more rural area.

      1. Tinkerbell*

        Gender also matters, in a very general way – women tend to have a lot more leeway with styles, cuts, and colors than men do, even within the same band of formality. (When men wear suits, women wear pantsuits and dresses and skirts and tailored jackets. When men wear khakis, women can wear all of the above PLUS more relaxed shrugs and sweaters and lots more variations of length/modesty/temperature-appropriateness.)

  25. Managing in the Matrix*

    I’m looking for resources or your experiences on managing in a matrix organization.

    My company is in the process of transitioning to a matrix structure and as an IT manager I’m not sure how much my role will change. I know it will focus more on developing people’s skills and managing processes, since the project work will be managed by the product manager. How do I manage the people and processes successfully if I don’t manage the projects too?

    I’ve been asking my own manager about the transition, but it would be helpful if there are any books or articles out there that focus on being a manager in a matrix org so I can target my questions better and get a sense of what to expect.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I can share my experience.

      Context: I was a mid- to senior-level employee. My work was: One-third projects my manager and I worked on together, one-third for a separate team, and one-third “building infrastructure/capacity across the department.”

      My manager worked with me and others I supported to develop my annual goals each year. During our check-ins, we would alternate as needed between project specific discussions (usually the projects my manager was also on), status updates on my other work, and big picture “how is it going, what do you need help trouble-shooting.”

      A few key pieces that helped:

      My manager developed and maintained a relationship with the other teams and the owners of projects I was supporting.

  26. Rara Avis*

    A coworker of my husband’s was placed on administrative leave for sexual harassment because he was accused by a client of standing too close to her. This happened in a public setting with many other people around, and the work involves collaboration and hands-on helping. The accusation was determined to be unfounded and he was allowed back to work, but he is understandably upset and humiliated, and thinking about breaking his contract and leaving. They are already short -staffed. If I were a manager I would have conducted the investigation before the suspension, so I’d love to hear from managers if my instinct is wrong here.

    1. A Penguin!*

      I think you have to have the suspension (with pay) immediately/during the investigation if there’s any chance otherwise that the accuser/accusee would be in contact during the time the investigation is going on. If there’s any truth to the accusation you definitely don’t want to be forcing them into repeated contact.

      If there’s no chance they’d be in further contact, then I think it can go either way.

    2. Ginger Baker*

      Caveat, I’m not a manager, but I think this is a case where (so long as they treat all investigations the same way, which I would presume is true) this is a very reasonable standard operating procedure. I think there are two main benefits to immediately placing someone on leave (which: was it paid? in which case I think there is very little to complain about…) while an investigation proceeds. 1) By removing a potential offender from the job site, you increase the odds that witnesses, if there were any, will speak honestly about what they have seen. 2) Putting someone on leave as the first step indicates that the company is not dismissing out of hand the possibility that the employee in question *did* act in a problematic way. If the investigation proceeds and finds nothing: great! Return to work! If they do find something, proceed from there. But, to give a really extreme example for the sake of demonstrating why that removal-as-first-step is important, imagine that you heard an allegation that a camp counselor was sexually assaulting children in the camp – maybe an investigation finds it’s completely unfounded, but if the investigation *did* find wrongdoing, and the camp had allowed the counselor to *continue having access to potential victims for the weeks or months of the investigation*…that…would be pretty terrible.

      Your husband’s coworker feels terrible and maligned and I very much understand that, because we are humans and when someone accuses you of something it feels crappy. But the company took the right steps to protect any potential victims until it was sure that everyone was safe (including, of course, the company, safe from being sued).

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      Not a manager, but if the allegations had been true, but he was allowed to continue working with the victim until that was determined, is that better? That’s usually why a person is suspended (with pay), until the truth can be determined. Someone loses, whether the accusations are true or false.

    4. Cordelia*

      I’m a manager, but it wouldn’t be up to me – the employee would be suspended on full pay pending investigation. I’d have no choice in the matter, and my instincts wouldn’t come into it – that is the policy. I think it’s right – imagine if the accusation was proven but in the meantime he had been continuing to work with this and other clients? Horrible situation though

    5. Rara Avis*

      Everyone’s answers make a lot of sense. I guess my discomfort is that he was accused of standing too close — not of touching, not of saying anything inappropriate. People have different personal space bubbles, and so I wondered if it could have been resolved in a lower-stakes way.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        To be completely honest…as a woman, I have very definitely had men stand *intentionally* too close to me, in a way that had plausible deniability (“wow, she’s just a sensitive woman being hysterical, WHAT a drama queen” type defense) but was definitely (as evidenced by future actions) deliberate, creepy, and part of an ongoing effort to encroach on my boundaries slowly so as to pave the way for future escalation that I might at that point feel less secure saying no to.

        I’m not saying this is your husband’s colleague, but…I’m uncomfortable with the idea that because it was “just” standing “too close” it must therefore not have actually been a reasonable complaint.

        1. Samwise*

          Yes. Been there. “I’m just STANDING here, what is your problem?” You’re a millimeter away from touching me and you’re leaning over me and smirking, you creep…

      2. Rara Avis*

        Oh, and one more factor — he’s a POC, and there’s some possibility that the accusation was rooted in bias.

        1. Cordelia*

          But thats why the investigation has to take place. And thats why there has to be a policy that applies to everyone – suspension first, then a thorough and transparent investigation. It can’t just be left up to the manager’s “instincts”, because the bias could work the other way in other situations. It’s awful for this employee though.

      3. Sabine the Very Mean*

        I’m of course taking you at your word but don’t discount that men (or anyone really but men are often bigger than women) using their physicality can certainly be a from of sexual harassment. The details matter here. I’ve been sexually harassed by a man touching me with his erect penis through his pants and only the two of us knew it–also in a group of people. He enjoyed the publicness of it while also banking on the fact that I likely wouldn’t have the balls to tell someone about his boner.

        Trust that the investigation was legit and he is not guilty but it shouldn’t be because “standing too close isn’t sexual harassment”.

        1. allathian*

          Ugh, gross. When I was on vacation in Paris in my early 20s, I was accosted by a “frotteur” in the metro, as I was waiting for the train to reach a station and to leave. I wore nice shoes rather than sneakers as I usually would when there’s a lot of walking to do, so I made a point of accidentally on purpose kicking him on the shins and stepping on his toes as I made my escape. I realize that that’s a lot harder to do if you’re standing around somewhere…

          But I agree, regardless of whether the accusations were true or false, suspending the person with pay while the investigation was going on was the right thing to do.

      4. I heart Paul Buchman*

        I read something interesting once about how in many harassment allegations it’s a straw that broke the camels back situation. People rarely report the first, second, third event and give a number of ‘benefit of the doubt’ excuses. The problem is that when a person does finally report the people hearing that then go through the same steps (benefit of the doubt/second chance) but by then the person has had many incidents. You can usually assume that by the time things get bad enough to complain the victim is pretty sure they know what is happening. And don’t assume the reported offence is the worst, it often isn’t by objective measures.

    6. Anonosaurus*

      I can understand why your husband’s coworker feels aggrieved but this is a standard procedure and I think it is fair. It protects the party being investigated from accusations of trying to influence the investigation (such as talking to other staff) and protects the complainant from having to work with the person while the investigation is conducted. However, it sounds like the workplace didn’t handle the resolution of the complaint as well as it could have, in terms of supporting both parties in a return to work. It is always going to be difficult for someone who has been accused of such behaviour because a lot of people will assume “no smoke without fire” or that the investigation wasn’t properly conducted. It may well be that he chooses to leave, but that doesn’t mean the complaint was mishandled.

  27. Chirpy*

    The answer to a large number of my problems is definitely get a better job (stressful customers, physically demanding, bad coworkers, I’m not paid a living wage which causes a whole host of issues by itself) but I just feel like I’m frozen. I’m realizing I probably have pretty severe anxiety, which I can’t get treated (even Better Help is $20/week, which I can’t afford, there’s no free options locally, all but one regular doctor I’ve ever seen in my life just uses it as a reason to dismiss other physical symptoms, not diagnose or treat it, and the one who did I can’t see anymore.) But since I seem to have really bad anxiety about job searching/ interviews I can’t get a job that would pay me enough to get help with that.

    I also don’t even know what field to look in, jobs that match my degree want 10 years of experience (and haven’t been hiring for the last 10 years, I’ve been looking) and are generally few and far between anyway. All LinkedIn shows me are retail/sales because I’m currently in retail (or, randomly, medical jobs I have zero qualifications for aside from being a summer lifeguard once upon a time). Plus even if I find a better place to apply to, I’m afraid they’ll ask why I stayed in retail so long, and the answer is I have panic attacks just reading job descriptions sometimes. I’ve had one good “office job” a long time ago and it didn’t end well. I’m just so exhausted being broke and currently also sick because I can’t afford to go to a doctor.

    I don’t have any references (I can maybe track down one old boss who doesn’t use email and a current part time coworker offered), and I don’t know anyone who works in any field I’m qualified for for recommendations. My friends and family aren’t helpful, and I’m single and can’t afford to take time off (FMLA is worthless and unpaid, our EAP consists of a website that offers tips like “eat better and exercise”). I’m so stuck.

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      That fucking sucks. I have literally no useful advice ( seriously I’m like ‘ one small step at a time. A small step is something you can’t fuck up) but I think people feel better if you say something. Those assholes at your job don’t have health insurance do they? Sometimes therapists allow a sliding scale to help people though

      1. Chirpy*

        Insurance basically covers nothing, unfortunately (including the whole “regular visits are only covered if we find nothing” which there’s clearly some physical issue going on as well since I’ve felt extra like crap for several months, so there’s that…)

    2. WellRed*

      What are you good at? All other things aside, what would you like to do for work? What fields do you think you are qualified for?

      1. Chirpy*

        I’m qualified for some pretty niche jobs (one field has literally about 6 jobs in my whole state, the other is mainly state government jobs that are very difficult to get, and my major is slightly vague and I have zero work experience there).

        Unfortunately the things I like doing are not particularly things that one can make a living at. Like recreating film props from a particular sci-fi franchise…I’m not good enough nor do I have the work space to make/sell them even as a side job. (And I like sewing, but I hate sewing for other people). I’m better at writing than I am speaking. I’m a mediocre musician. I’m good at arranging things and random trivia?

    3. Sitting Pretty*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. It’s so hard to make progress when you feel stuck like that. I’m thinking that once you take a few small, manageable steps, the momentum will help you move to the bigger, more impactful ones. And you’ll be able to see your skills and potential paths more clearly.

      But which small steps, right? That’s the question of the moment.

      I’m guessing that the last thing you want right now is more to do, but one thought that popped to mind reading your post is volunteering. I’m not sure what volunteer opportunities there are in your community, but if you can find some place that fits with your interests/values and would appreciate a bit of unpaid office help, that might be a good way to supplement your retail experience. And honestly, many organization struggle because volunteers usually want to do the front line work, like serving a hot meal. And they have a harder time finding volunteers willing to do things like filing, data entry, etc. But that office admin work may be exactly the kind of work that you could do to help build up your resume. And volunteering just a few hours a week can also help you build relationships with potential references.

      I’m a part of a faith community that relies heavily on volunteers to do things like help organize events, enter basic information into the congregant database, filing, and other office organizing. From what I hear, the volunteers absolutely love doing the work and the staff appreciates them too. So I’m extrapolating here, but such a situation could also help you regain some confidence as you get on the job market.

      This is just one suggestion, there are of course a variety other small steps that you could take. I think the main thing is to focus as much as you can on something manageable right in front of you because tackling the big question of one’s Whole Career Future can be really scary even in the best of circumstances.

      Best of luck along the way.

      1. Chirpy*

        I can’t volunteer anywhere because of my work schedule and odd hours. I also have had to give up all but one of my “fun” things to do because I physically do not have the energy due to whatever is going on health-wise (on top of half the time I’m so exhausted/in pain just from work, I regularly can’t walk at the end of the day.)

    4. kiwiii*

      If it’s an option at all, working with temp agencies really ended up being the route that worked for me.

      Post-college I worked at a grocery store for a year while my anxiety skyrocketed and physical health deteriated. I eventually ended getting in contact with all of the temp agencies in the area (most of which were like 30+ minutes away) who did any clerical work, because I knew I couldn’t stay in the role I was in.

      The role I eventually ended up in (after some …… weird situations with a temp agency where they essentially would have me in to cover the desk under the guise of talking to me about placements??? so I would go in thinking I’d been there for an hour and then stay for 4 lol) paid less than I was making at the grocery store — but after I’d been at THAT job for less than 8 months I leveraged that experience into a role where I was paid over $16/hr for the first time (and after that finally got paid something actually liveable)

      As for like, “why you stayed in retail so long” the answer to that needs to be something not-off-putting for interviews. something along the lines of “I really enjoyed the flexibility” or “I was really good at X and Y but am ready for something where I’m not on my feet all the time, or where I can use my brain a little more.”

      1. Chirpy*

        I can’t handle the uncertainty of temp work. And I already make $16/hr, a living wage here is at least $20/hr.

        And I’ve hated this job since the moment I started, previously there were some good people and it allowed me to escape some of the depression from losing my “good” job but the flexibility mainly means “you can take off unpaid occasionally”, not “we’ll actually be flexible with your schedule”. I an great at arranging things (always have been, and once was a museum curator) , but my current department head really doesn’t appreciate it.

        1. Danish*

          I have a bit of a headache today so this is not as nicely worded as I’d like – please know that I say this with all love and extreme been-there empathy:

          I think your anxiety is making you be a little too literal in its attempt to keep you despairing. Kiwiii is giving you the sort of language that you say in an interview regarding your current retail job. It doesn’t matter if the flexibility isn’t actually that flexible, or if you don’t actually like it.

          I’m familiar with this sort of anxiety myself, where everything feels surrounded by the insurmountable wall of your own inability or circumstance, but I’d encourage you to at least try to not reply to every suggestion with a list of negatives. Which is not to say that you have to gratefully accept all suggestions when they don’t work for you, but it feels like your brain is actively sabotaging you with “nothing is worth trying and here are all the reasons why.”

          To bring it back to this specific suggestion – it doesn’t matter what the actual flexibility at your store is like or that you already make $16 an hour, neither of those things change the advice Kiwiii gave – to the extent that they’re almost nonsensical responses – but your brain spat them out like they’re legit reasons to a) keep worrying about what you’ll say in a hypothetical interview and b) not look for a temp job that could get you a stable, higher-paying job.

          I know it all feels very hopeless, but if you’re looking for small, small steps you can start with, I think “not immediately considering all the negatives in response to every possible action” is actually more helpful than people give it credit for. I’m not suggesting like, positive thinking will save the day! Or that you’re intentionally being negative. Being non-negative when things suck is HARD. But trying for at least not an immediate knee-jerk “impossible! despair!” will hopefully make it a little less fraught for you as you navigate out.

          Best of luck, this is all very hard but I am thinking the best for you <3

          1. Chirpy*

            I get that, but everyone suggests temp work. I can barely survive on my current pay, and I know temp work by its very nature is very tenuous and hit-or-miss, and I know I can’t handle it. I literally can’t afford to have any less pay than I already do (I won’t be able to pay rent!) and I’m clearly not good at uncertainty.

        2. M2*

          It may be worthwhile to look into temp. work

          I’m a hiring manager and for the majority of the roles I (and the managers I manage) hire need work experience in the field. Doesn’t matter if you have a degree in the field, you need work experience, unless we are hiring a paid internship or very entry level.

          Where I work many people over the years started as a temp (many temp parental leave cover even) and many get a full-time offer once their temp contract is up. They also do this when people leave (admin and exec assistant roles) and we need immediate coverage/ people already screened.

          Also friends who work in higher Ed (including at Ivy institutions) say they hire temps and those temps sometimes become permanent. They hire temps first because they need the coverage right away and then put up the FT role after HR goes through everything. Either way that experience can help on your resume to parlay it into something else with different skills and accomplishments.

          Look at roles in higher Ed- dealing with customers is very similar to dealing with students.

          Also, having temp experience will help you get more references if you need.

          Also, look into various customer service roles. Some are even allowing WFH situations.

          Good luck!

        3. M2*

          Also if you were once a museum curator can you look into becoming. A docent or volunteer in our spare time to add to your resume? Museum work is notoriously hard, but look at university museums! You get the benefits of the university and usually decent pay for the sector. Again, hard to come by but something to look into!

    5. Watry*

      I could have written this post a few years ago. If you have to get out nownownow, try looking for niche customer service roles. I went from basic retail to security alarm monitoring to doing FOIA requests for local government. It’s still customer service, admittedly, but it’s a heck of a lot better than retail, gives you some breathing room, and the transferable skills are obvious to the hiring manager.

    6. Tio*

      Pick either an industry or a company you want to work in, then start reviewing all the job listings posted for them. A lot of entry level job posting can have weird sounding titles (the entry level postings for my company are titled “assistants” because of our weird titling conventions, but are jobs almost anyone could apply to). Get your resume out on LinkedIn and Indeed and stuff; some recruiters may contact you. Make sure you list out all the tangible skills you have and work out a good spiel to sell yourself.

      1. Chirpy*

        Part of the problem is I just don’t know where I’d like to work, or where would be a good match for my skills. I’ve been on LinkedIn for at least a year and a half with no connections except a few recruiters looking for (mostly part time) sales reps. It keeps dropping my custom searches for things I’d actually like to work in (because they aren’t common jobs) and going back to either retail/ sales, or weirdly medical jobs (I am definitely not a neurosurgeon but that’s one of the things it keeps sending me!)

        1. Tinkerbell*

          If your current job is a) keeping you from being able to get the mental health care you need and b) keeping you from being able to volunteer, do planned hobbies, or structure your life in a way you can keep your stress to a minimum, while c) not paying you enough to live on, then the logical step is to find a different job. Even if you can’t find one that’s higher-paying (yet), you can probably find something that has set hours and/or a shorter commute and/or is less stressful overall. Then once you’re settled in that, you can start to sort out other things in your life (friends, hobbies, goals, budget) in ways that will slowly build up your mental health. It’s not easy, and it’s not fast, but it *is* baby steps toward bigger changes!

          1. Chirpy*

            I just feel like I won’t be able to get a decent job without fixing my anxiety first. I feel like I’m terrible at interviewing even for past jobs where I wasn’t quite so bad anxiety -wise (and in the past I haven’t been able to get even people who knew and liked me to take my qualifications- which they had seen in action- seriously.) So I feel stuck.

        2. Happy 2023!*

          Sounds like you need a “bridge job.” This is a job to solve the immediate emergency you described so you can get your feet under you and THEN find your next career. I’m with Watry; I was in retail (and retail management) and switched to entry-level call center (emergency life situation). The company had good health benefits (interview with “name” companies, not local small ones) and it gave me a breather for the self-examination and skill-building that a career transition requires.

    7. DJ Abbott*

      I agree with all the advice to take small steps and prioritize getting better health insurance. Keep looking for a way to get healthcare until you find one.
      When you do, see if they’ll give you medication for anxiety. I recently started anxiety medication. It’s a big help and it sounds like yours is worse than mine, so medication might help you also.
      I worked in a grocery store last year to get customer service experience so I could get a job working more with people. I transitioned out of it with an office temp job.
      If you work in a heavily customer service department like the deli, butcher, or cashier, that’s a transferable skill to any job where you work with people. If you’re working in stocking or shipping/receiving, those are administrative skills and they are transferable to any job with an administrative component. Especially if you’re doing any ordering, inventory or similar.
      Good luck!

  28. The drifting cloud*

    I’m posting this because I’m on a holiday break from my job and I don’t want the time off to lull me into forgetting how terrible my company is and how much I need to find another job. So this is just a rant.

    Employees rotate frequently between teams and worksites. There’s one employee, whom I’ll call G, who has a difficult personality and tends to get in fights — yelling, crying fights — with multiple coworkers. It seems that on every team G works on, they eventually have a fight with someone. Some employees openly refer to them as “Crazy G”. Sometimes workers will just call out rather than work with G. By the way, G’s work output is not consistently good, in quantity or quality. I feel bad for G, because they seem to have some genuine personal problems that are not their fault, but the only solution I can see is for G to find a job that requires minimal human interaction.

    This has been going on for a couple of years and management has done absolutely nothing. They will never fire G, because they never fire anyone unless someone commits an actual crime at work (and sometimes not even then). Ten years ago, when the labor market was different, they might just have given G very few hours. Now they basically have to keep giving all their employees work because they don’t pay enough to be picky. But more importantly, they don’t care.

    So all that happens with G is that the lowest-level supervisors have to keep soothing people’s hurt feelings after these fights. G gets “talked to” over and over. Coworkers will say they never want to work with G again, and the supervisors will say OK, but they’ll “forget” after a few weeks because they desperately need to fill the labor hole.

    And this situation is absolutely typical for this company. Problems just ARE NOT solved. The only people who have the authority to solve them are completely apathetic. It’s always been like this and it will never get better.

    1. WellRed*

      Every single employee that complains about G has the ability to walk away, from G, from the job. You keep mentioning how the job market means the employer is forced to put up with G(untrue, they just choose not to deal with the problem). That same job market is available to the rest of you. Is it easy? No.

      1. The drifting cloud*

        Yeah, honestly it’s like we’ve all somehow been hypnotized into staying with this company. There is, admittedly, something very comforting about an employer who will hire anyone and fires no one. As long as you can put up with the endless chaos and bullshit you will always have a job! Plus the work itself can be rewarding and enjoyable, at least sometimes. But the main reason I still work there is that I have a psychological fear of job-hunting. I suspect that’s true of a lot of my coworkers too.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          To be fair, job hunting sucks and is frequently frustrating and very hard to do. It does help when a job is safe and stable and as long as you can put up with it….

          So, yeah, I don’t have a Crazy G at my work (unless I’m Crazy G?!), but leaving is hard and for a lot of us, we’re not really going to be the best of the best to get another job, especially as things get worse.

    2. DJ Abbott*

      Sounds a lot like my grocery store job. It’s a high-volume store in a big city and they are desperate for staff. They have high turnover because of the way they treat people, but they will hire anyone and don’t fire often. When they do fire it’s usually for people not showing up.
      There were a lot of things I enjoyed about the job but it was not a good long-term option, and not just because of the pay.

  29. GrapefruitKitten*

    Hey guys! I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions for what I should say when people call/email me asking the status of payment for overdue invoices.

    For quick context, I work for a very small company and have no involvement in the accounting side of things. Also, many of these invoices should have been paid by now and these vendors have a legit reason to be a little upset. I just never know what to say! I also don’t like to just redirect people to our accounting department, because although they pay the bills they often don’t have direct control over WHEN things get paid, so they’re kind of in the same boat as I am.

    Any suggestions??

    1. rr*

      Do the people in the accounting part of the company at least know if a check has been cut or not? An invoice entered in the system? If so, yeah, redirect them. Just don’t ignore them – that’s really the worst.

      1. GrapefruitKitten*

        Yes I usually ask accounting separately on the status of the check. 99% of the time they’re waiting for funds/permission to pay the invoice. So it’s not like I can tell the vendor that is asking “yeah we have your invoice we’re just waiting to pay it even though it should have been paid months ago” >_<

        I def don't want to ignore the vendors either…I feel their pain.

        1. Parcae*

          It sounds like you’re trying to be a buffer for accounting so they don’t have to have uncomfortable conversations with vendors. Why? It might be a part of their job that sucks, but it’s still their job. And letting people experience the negative consequences of stuff is often the first step to getting that stuff fixed.

          1. Girasol*

            There’s bound to be someone who has the right level of control to deal with this. If you boot the issue to accounting, they can push it up the ladder to the right person. That might not be easy for them to do but it sounds like that shouldn’t be your problem.

        2. Luca*

          I felt your pain at a previous job, Grapefruit. Huge bureaucratic firm with some less-than-efficient financial procedures, and even less effective at dealing with some bottlenecks.

          If I could share my wildest stories, readers might fall over in shock at such stupidity. I can say that when they got an online system several years ago, they said it would enable management to spot stalled invoice and expense transactions and follow up with the staller.

          When I left, I wondered if the follow-up had fallen by the wayside, or the follow-uppers were being ignored.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      As a CFO I’m saying you should CERTAINLY forward the calls to Accounting. If there’s an accounting manager/controller/CFO forward the call to them. They need to know that invoices aren’t being paid on time. And if there isn’t enough money to pay them on time, it’s their job to message that.
      It is totally not your job to field these calls! Let Accounting take the heat

    3. WellRed*

      Redirect them to accounting. It’s nit on you to buffer accounting. New version of an old quote: “yes it’s a problem, but it’s not my problem.”

    4. Parcae*

      “I’m sorry to hear you haven’t received your payment. Let me transfer you to accounting to see if someone there can help.”

      Accounting might not have full control over the payments, but they definitely have more information than you do. So let them do their jobs.

    5. London Calling*

      Ex accounts payable here. Forward the calls to AP rather than get caught in the middle. Or tell the client you’ll find out, then go and talk to AP and ask for an update; although I’m a little perplexed about you saying they don’t have direct control over when things get paid if they are actually the finance department. It’s my experience over several decades that as long as people a) know you have made the effort to find out what’s going on and b) they are updated with the payment status and when they can reasonably expect payment (which is down to AP to confirm) they are usually happy. It’s not knowing where the hell their money is and when they’re going to see it that annoys people. Don’t ignore them, that’s when people start threatening debt collectors.

      1. Ina Lummick*

        Kinda reminds me a bit in a way when I tell suppliers: “y’know finance doesn’t actually do any invoicing” (and it’s 15 years since that system was actually supported meaning that it takes 20 minutes to raise a simple invoice)

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Is it happening a lot and ramped up suddenly? If invoices aren’t being paid and this is a new thing, it likely points to financial problems at the company. You probably can’t do anything directly about that, but I’d suggest keeping a resume ready and an eye on the job market.

  30. Joielle*

    Ohhhh my god I am so tired. I’m covering for a person on leave right now, which I’m happy to do but we’ve entered the busy season for my own job and I don’t really know how this is going to go. We’re in the process of hiring for another position that will take some of the pressure off me but that will take at least weeks, probably months, and then training time before I can fully hand stuff off to them. I am not used to dropping balls but I don’t see how we get through the next few months without me losing track of at least a few things.

    Also on top of all of this, I’m gunning for a promotion in the first quarter of 2023 so this feels like a really bad time to start messing things up. My boss (and his boss) have been really supportive and I know they understand the situation, but I’m still worried that I’ll either burn out trying to do it all, or drop an important ball and tank my chance of a promotion.

    ALSO also, most people in my agency don’t have much to do this week, so some people have started making up problems and emailing me about them. I actually have a lot to do this week and I do not have time for this. UGH

    1. kiwiii*

      Cheering you on!

      If you’re worried about determining which balls may effect your promotion chances, a frank conversation with your boss like “since i’m still covering for Eugenia and it’s about to be busy season in my role, I’m planning on ensuring that A and B for her role get done and X and Y from mine, with Z if there’s time, and putting off everything related to W until it slows down/Eugenia is back — does that align with what you were thinking or would you rather I approach it differently.”

      If you feel like you need to caveat it at the beginning like “I know you’re counting on me/have been really supportive, but I want to go into this period with straightforward expectations” or something.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Reframe it in your mind from “dropping balls” to (e.g.) “re-prioritizing the standard tasks”. Showing awareness of the business context and what influences the priority is a useful thing in itself to demonstrate as you go for a more senior role.

    3. Your local password resetter*

      You probably don’t have enough hours in the day to do two busy, fulltime jobs at the same time. So please don’t try to do everything, but focus on the highest priorities of both jobs.

      Also ask your managers if you havent already. Which parts of your current job do they want you to drop to make room for the covering job? And what is their plan for the near future, when you have busy job + covering job + training to do?

  31. New Mom*

    Has anyone ever quit a job so that they could go on a vacation and did not regret it? I’d love to hear your stories!

    1. ConstantlyComic*

      Might not be the flavor of answer you’re looking for, but I left a job I had already put in my two-weeks for early so I could attend my great-grandmother’s funeral out-of-state. While I’m generally not fond of funerals, I was fond of my great-grandmother, and it was very nice to see and celebrate her life with my extended family, some of whom I hadn’t seen in years and some of whom I haven’t seen since. Leaving that job early also meant I was able to avoid some awkward last-day encounters (including interactions with one overly sentimental coworker who had grated on my nerves since he’d started working there)

    2. Trisha*

      Yes. Now I had only been working there about 5 months but the vacation was pre-planned and I had specifically asked about being able to take time off at Christmas for a family trip which they said would be no problem. They had a weird pay system because most of the staff were salary but the department I worked for (customer service) was hourly. Except they paid a month behind (i.e. you got paid for September at the beginning of November, October at the beginning of December). It was bizarre that they didn’t want to do a separate accounting for the hourly people but paid them on the same monthly schedule as the salary people, just a month behind so that they could input the actual hours worked. And working conditions were…odd, we all had to have the same lunch time and had to eat together in the lunchroom (though supply our own food), no leaving and take all of our breaks together, no coffee pot onsite and no way to get one at break, nothing at our desks but a water bottle with a cap …and this wasn’t manufacturing, like I said it was a customer service position (we were updating the yellow pages for various cities). Anyways, I tried talking to my supervisor about my vacation in October…”oh my dear, we’re not talking about Christmas yet.” November “oh my dear, we’re not talking about Christmas yet.” in December I was like, “I need these two days off.” and it was, “oh, we don’t approve hourly people time off during the two weeks at the holidays, you only get Christmas and boxing day and then back to work! You’re lucky to even have a job, you should be thankful you get the two legally mandated holidays. We don’t really encourage people to take time off here anyways. I mean, you don’t really make enough to take a real vacation.” I was floored. I talked to some of the hourly people who had been there for a while and they were all super excited that in December, they would get paid out their vacation time. And I was just aghast that this place expected that they only days off were week-ends and stat holidays. And people had worked for years there with that being okay. A week before Christmas I walked in and said I was quitting, and handed my supervisor a print out of the provincial regulations that stated I had to be paid my last pay within two weeks. “Oh, we don’t do that.” Oh, yes you do. I told her that was not an acceptable answer, I expected my December pay in early January or I would go to the labour board. I had to meet with some higher up lady later that afternoon who poo-pooed my quitting and the fact that I wanted my actual last pay within a timely manner. I pretty much knew I wasn’t going to use this place as a reference so I got mad, raised my voice and accused her of trying to steal from her employees, breaking the law, trapping people on site, running a sweatshop, I was going to report them to the Labour board, the province, I was going to sue them…just everything I could think of for this pretty terrible place for the hourly employees. She said she’s see what she could do. 10 minutes before I left on my last day, my supervisor handed me a cheque and asked me to sign for it. It was a final pay cheque, including my vacation time and the stat holidays (no taxes withheld, but I really didn’t care.) It had been a crappy place to work and I wanted out. Not giving me two days off was just the piece that made me just leave. Oh, and Atlantic City at Christmas time is amazing!

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        Oh my god the second hand satisfaction I got from this is golden! Thank you so much for sharing. I’m in the minority on AAM where I don’t subscribe to the idea that managers are superior to me and that I just have to fall in line. I have never had any problem telling my bosses if they messed up and have lost my respect. I have high expectations for my managers and I pretty much make sure they meet them or I bail. I have told managers who have treated me badly that they owe me an apology and that if it happens again, I won’t be accepting any apology and that our relationship won’t recover. I have never suffered any consequences either. I once had a boss call me to the carpet only to be groveling at the end by saying, “Sabine, I’m human too” which is met by, “yes but I won’t suffer by default”.

        1. Giant Kitty*

          Yep. I had a retail manager who, after a regional managers meeting where they taught them about different personality types, confessed that until then (when he learned about my personality type lol) he had been really irritated that instead of asking permission to use the restroom, I would tell him I was going. I was amused. Not only was I a grown ass adult over the age of 30, I was older than that particular manager! Why would I ask “permission” to take care of an ordinary bodily function? I was responsible enough to only do so if & when I could be spared from the floor so there wasn’t an issue with coverage, and I wasn’t abusing the ability to use the restroom at non-break times or anything, it just annoyed him that I said “I’m going to use the restroom instead of “can I”.
          Even when I was in school and DID need to ask for permission/a hall pass, I very politely said “Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms. Teacher, I need to use the restroom” not “can I” LOL

      2. Scarlet Magnolias*

        is this Melissa and Doug? I heard they would make all their employees take lunch together and keep nothing but a water bottle on their desks

      3. DJ*

        Good on you. You’d specifically asked for those days off and were told initially it was OK. Also what a horrible answer to say “oh, we don’t approve hourly people time off during the two weeks at the holidays, you only get Christmas and boxing day and then back to work! You’re lucky to even have a job, you should be thankful you get the two legally mandated holidays. We don’t really encourage people to take time off here anyways. I mean, you don’t really make enough to take a real vacation.” Firstly why didn’t they tell you that at the beginning “we don’t approve hourly people time off during the two weeks…” and secondly the snarky dig “you don’t really make enough…”

    3. Chirpy*

      I’ve absolutely had a vacation I would have quit over, but in the end my vacation time was approved (unpaid) so in the end I didn’t have to quit.

      1. mztery1*

        Not exactly but – but I had an opportunity to do something for a week that would really help the other kind of work that I do (writing and performing). It’s a long long story, but I had gone back to work for a former manager who started a new company not at all related to the company I worked for him in the past. I wasn’t sure it would work out, so we had an agreement and if it didn’t, he would agree to lay me off and not challenge my unemployment. I’m glad I had that agreement, as when I requested the week off, even though there was plenty of coverage and my coworkers were OK with it he refused to give me that Time off. He was true to his word and when I said I was going to quit over it he said you don’t have to I will just lay you off.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      Not exactly, but in one not-so-hot job I was furloughed for two weeks. I bought a one-way ticket to a faraway country, thinking either a) I’d get laid off during the two weeks and could travel however long I liked, or b) I’d get called back to work and would have some fresh perspective on whether it was time to quit (and therefore I would have the option of traveling however long I liked). I got laid off and had some extra travel time. :)

  32. slowingaging*

    So question to libraians, what is the standard for access to collections? I’m not sure if this belongs here or on the weekend open thread.
    Decades ago, when I was young, I was in London and walked into the British Library and asked for access to books, because I was researching family history. They gave me a temp library card, directed me to the card catalog. I found a couple of books which were delivered to the desk. I dreamed of walking around the library and looking at books, which I learned was not allowed. However sitting at the desk with a lamp in the library was a joy in itself. I went back several times while I was there just for fun.

    My ancestors came from a small village near Luton in the 1600’s. I went to the library and asked for access to village records from village. They directed me to a room with paper and pencil and brought me sheepskin rolls. I could see my family name written in what seemed to be jury trials. I was dumbfounded. I finally asked to make copy of the rolls. The librarian did that for me.

    A family member collects books about the state he lives in. We were talking and he told me that he used to have access to the rare book collection at a nearby university, but the director changed and he no longer has access. He also stated that he can’t access most of what I would think are research libraries. What is the standard and how is it determined?

    1. Talvi*

      None of these examples sound out of the ordinary to me. Our understanding of “access” can differ from the general public’s, though. The stacks may be closed, but the books/records are often still considered “open access”; we just have to bring them to you rather than letting you browse. Librarians and archivists are generally all about providing access to their collections, so restrictions related to accessing the stacks are usually in place to protect the collection rather than restrict access. (Some things are legitimately restricted access – in archives, this often has to do with privacy legislation.)

      One major factor is how replaceable the collection is. In rare book collections and archival collections, the item you are looking at may well be the only one in existence (such as the sheepskin rolls you described), so the stacks would be closed to ensure that nothing gets damaged, stolen, or even misfiled. (I’m not exaggerating when I say that in an archival collection, if a file gets returned to the wrong box, we may never find it again.)

      Other practical factors include the fact that it is common for archives to have some of their collection stored off-site, as well as safety reasons, since retrieving items may involve ladders and/or cherry pickers (the latter of which require certification and two staff members to operate).

      Finally …you probably wouldn’t be able to find what you’re looking for anyway. These types of collections often use idiosyncratic systems to shelve their collections, so it’s rarely as simple as looking up the Dewey decimal number and finding it on the shelf. (Even we sometimes struggle to physically locate something in our own collections, and we’re intimately familiar with how said collections are shelved!)

      All that being said, if you’re interested in seeing the stacks in closed-stack collections, inquire about a tour — the library or archive will often be happy to accommodate this! (But do make your inquiries ahead of time, not when you arrive or you will be disappointed.)

      1. slowingaging*

        Wow, thanks for the reply. I’m in SoCal. Would you know what libraries would be willing to do tours? Or do I just start cold calling the interesting looking ones?

        1. Talvi*

          Check their website first, as they may have an existing procedure for tours (especially if it is something they do routinely). Otherwise, contacting them directly is indeed probably the way to go. My own archive usually ends up doing a couple of small group tours a month, and it usually is people simply calling us up and asking if they could have one.

          1. slowingaging*

            Thanks. I will start looking. Unlike my relative who is a serious amateur collector, I just like to look and be amazed.

    2. V8 Fiend*

      It can depend – my experience is working in an academic library and then an archive within an academic library.

      For the academic library, the bulk of services were for students, faculty, and staff. We did have community cards, which would give people limited to access to things – they could check out a few items from the general collection, use the computers for limited amounts of time, things like that.

      For the archive within an academic library – we were open to the public, but they had to have an appointment and items could only be viewed in our reading room; nothing could be checked out. Some collections were closed to the public, meaning no one not associated with the university could access them. Some collections were closed to everyone, meaning no one could access those. Access to a collection could also change depending on if we were doing collection maintenance, if the collection was on loan or on exhibit, etc.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      As other’s have already done a good job summarizing types of access, I’ll leave that alone. I will add, years ago, it wasn’t uncommon for “friends of the collection” to basically be allowed to access rare books stacks freely in some places and still isn’t 100% stamped out. Since your relative noted that the director changed, I am wondering if there’s a lot more to this story than you might know. When my old director at one job stopped allowing the local book collecting club to just “walk into the vault” for obvious security reasons, they were still mad about it 15 years later. (We honestly would have happily walked anyone back there as long as they were accompanied by staff and promised not to touch anything without asking first.)

      1. slowingaging*

        Yep, that sounds about right. I appreciate that people collect them for specific purposes. I just like to read books and wandering around libraries and picking up a book just to look at it is fun. So I probably belong in the general public area.

    4. Generic Name*

      I mean, I have cards to 3 different public libraries, and I’ve gone and sat in/browsed in a fourth. Nobody in the library had any way of knowing I lived 50 miles outside their boundaries and nobody asked.

    5. Wink the Book*

      Another piece I would encourage you to investigate is what your local public library’s interlibrary loan scope covers. It is not the same as wandering the stacks, but a HUGE amount of stuff is available for lending/access if you ask. I work in a public university known for research, and we lend happily to all of our public libraries, both physically and scans of owned materials, or electronic materials we have lending licenses for.

      Each state has its own ILL policies (and those can be broken down by systems and consortia too), but I think it would be worth your time to check your local public and ask if they have any kind of lending agreement with any of the local academic/research institutions.

      Also, not sure how things are with y’all, but my University is still off limits to non-university students/staff/faculty. So digital might be your option for some places.

  33. Worker bee*

    I am wondering how to best deal with this situation that seems to happen regularly. I have a boss that is a hands off micromanager, which can be very frustrating. I find that I am often in a triangulation kind of situation, where something is happening to our medium organization that I may or may not know about, and I run into the boss who vents? about how x is not getting done, and is aghast that no one has consulted me (I am an expert in our major system but not an IT person). I end up feeling like I need to go and and try to help because of said expertise. Sometimes in fact it is not a problem with our system, but with IT (like a port issue), or with the vendor, sometimes I can be of help. It seems boss has not gotten all the information or has decided not to trust whoever is in charge of that project. I think it’s uncomfortable to me because I hear that boss wants me to interfere, but I have no clear mandate to do anything – the other people involved typically are my peers organizationally, although I am considered a senior to most. Boss definitively should address their concerns directly to the person involved but what to do when they come to me instead?

    1. kiwiii*

      Is sketching out this issue something you could do with your boss in the moment? Like after they say “i can’t believe they haven’t consulted you”, you go “you say stuff like that a lot, what are you looking for when you say that? should i consider that a directive to reach out and offer some perspective/clarity?”

    2. Tinkerbell*

      One thing that may or may not help is to reframe your responsibilities in your own mind: you’re not obligated to be aware of everything you COULD be doing and chase down those tasks, you’re only obligated to do the things your boss has requested. That relocated most of these triangulation issues to “someone else’s problem” unless and until your boss loops you in – at which time you can ensure you have all the data before you have to worry about anything.

  34. Lup Taaco*

    Need input regarding taking off my shoes in the workplace.
    Important to note that:
    A.) I’m behind a desk in my own office 95% of the day.
    B.) I put them back on if I have to go any farther than the neighboring office to talk to a coworker, or if I’m meeting with someone important or outside the agency
    C.) I am fairly certain that I’m not stinking anything up when I take my shoes off. (I have a condition which causes me to sweat very little, which comes with its own pros and cons. I also run a diffuser in my office.)
    D.) I am in my mid-20s in my first supervisory role, and in the 4 months I’ve worked here, I have received one comment from my supervisor regarding professional conduct in a webinar format. (I wasn’t rude by any stretch, but I have a very casual demeanor that can veer into unprofessional.)
    So are sock feet in the workplace a major problem that I’m trying to downplay for my own comfort, or can I pass as “business eccentric”?

    1. Scribbles*

      I personally feel it’s “business eccentric” as long as you’re putting your shoes back on when leaving your desk. I’d start putting then on even when going to the neighboring office. But I’ve also worked in pretty casual workplaces.

      1. Lup Taaco*

        Fair. I think I’ve been avoiding putting them on for short trips because I’m wearing heavy, lace-up boots today and it’s not as easy as a slip-on shoe.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          That’s why I have a pair of worn out crocs in the office. They’re black, so I pretend they are professional.

        3. Hen in a Windstorm*

          I think the answer is for you to get some office shoes. Leave the boots off, be in sock feet at your desk, but when you get up, you slip into your flats/clogs and walk to wherever. Put the boots back on to leave for the day.

        4. allathian*

          Get some office shoes. I’m in Finland, and this is very much a shoes off culture, while we also wear boots for at least 4 months out of the year. Even for a formal event at someone’s home you bring nice, dry shoes to change into. For informal events, simply wearing socks is totally normal. I keep a pair of fairly smart flats (Clarks) at the office, which I change into even in the summer.

    2. lost academic*

      It personally bugs me when people walk around without any sort of shoe in the workplace but I don’t see why it would be a problem to have them off at your desk. (From a very basic safety perspective, wear SOMETHING when walking around the office.)

      I would generally avoid having them off if anyone can notice because it is going to read overly casual/weird.

    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      My vote is that having shoes off under your desk, if no one can see, is fine. But do not walk around the office with no shoes on.
      #1 it’s pretty unsanitary for everyone (those floors just are NOT clean)
      #2 you could step on a staple or something and get hurt!

    4. Aphrodite*

      I too have my own office and go “shoeless” in it. The only times I have shoes on is coming and going, visiting the restroom, and going into other offices to interact with my supervisor or co-workers. But then I have a firm longstanding “no shoes in the house” policy at home as well. My feet are happier, I am sure, and my shoes last for many more years than they might otherwise. No one at work (higher education) has said anything and yes, it’s probably viewed as “business eccentric.”

    5. Cordelia*

      I’d say it was fine for the 95% of time you are sitting at your desk, but walking round the office – even to the neighbouring office – is business essential verging on the unprofessional. It would look very odd even in my very casual office.

      2. Lup Taaco*

        Yeah, I think I needed to hear this. I’ve earned a reputation as the lovable weirdo in past workplace, but I also haven’t been responsible for supervising anyone in those environment. Time to upgrade to eccentric professional (emphasis on the professional).

    6. Ahdez*

      Sitting at your desk with your shoes off is fine as long as the stink is controlled. Walking around in socks (or worse, bare feet) is a hard no. I think that would be very unprofessional, because no matter how casual, you’re in an office, a communal space, and it’s not the same as being at home.

    7. Honey Badger Just Don't Care*

      Not wearing shoes at your desk so long as it’s not readily visible to others is fine. I used to wear high heels all the time and would slip them off when I was at my desk. But as others have pointed out, please put something on when walking through the office. The floors in most buildings are just…gross and you can easily get injured on the stupidest of things. Unless you are working after hours/weekends. Then go running about barefoot if you dare!

    8. Tinkerbell*

      I kick off my shoes and sit on my feet when I’m at the computer. I don’t even think about it, and I get antsy when I can’t. When I was working in an office setting, I just made sure to wear slip-on shoes most of the time so I could put them back on the moment I stood up. (Sometimes I would go barefoot for short errands, if no one else was nearby, but it was easier to just train myself to put my shoes back on.)

  35. Timing a Job Change?*

    I would appreciate advice from hiring managers and other frequent interview panelists. The perspective of other people working in the public sector or local government would also be excellent.
    When reviewing applicants’, what is your preferred length of tenure at previous jobs?
    I am beginning to job search due to culture fit issues. I joined my current office directly out of grad school about a year and a half ago. I was promoted 8 months into that time.
    Would reaching two years at my office, or a full year in my current position, significantly improve my applications for future jobs? I enjoy my work and my goal is to remain in this field long term.
    Thank you for your time.

    1. Scribbles*

      For me, it really depends – for example, if most job tenures were pretty long (think 5+ years), I wouldn’t think twice about a job in the mix that was under a year in length. If all the jobs are shorter tenures, I’d be ok with them each being 2+ years, but if it each was a year or less, I’d likely pass.

    2. kiwiii*

      so, two things. i work at a non-profit that works with local governments and we hire for a more or less entry level job (some experience is nice, but more than 5 years would be unrealistic and we’ve hired without any experience before), and a couple stints at or about a year wouldn’t make us bat an eye.

      I can think of two candidates (of about a hundred) where we paused at their experience: A had about 6 jobs listed, the most recent 3 or 4 all within in the last two years; B had two under 16 month stints in the last 5 years, not marked contract or temp or anything, and there was like a 8 month + gap between them and between the last one ending and them applying. Everyone else’s was just … normal. some job-hopping is normal after college.

      second, i worked for my state prior to this, and there were SO many people who left jobs after 9-18 months that I wouldn’t have batted an eye at a coworker coming in with short tenures other places.

      1. kiwiii*

        **who left jobs after 9-18 months *to go to other state bureaus/departments*, that I wouldn’t have batted an eye

    3. ecnaseener*

      I would only care about your length of time at that office, not since the promotion. A year and a half wouldn’t bother me at all.

      In general, with this being your first job since grad school, I wouldn’t be too bothered by a short stay but I’d be that much more interested in hearing why you’re leaving. Multiple short stays in a row is where it gets concerning.

    4. Sitting Pretty*

      I work at a state university and have hired several classified, entry- and mid-level employees.

      I pay less attention to the length of each role in an organization or company and more to the overall length of time as well as the responsibilities/accomplishments at that organization. I’d be fine with someone who spent 1.5 years at one place after grad school, and seeing a promotion midway through that time would be a plus.

      But yeah, in terms of the whole story of your career history, if you leave this one now, and your next job is only a year or so and the one after that… That’s when things start to look sketchy

      So my suggestion is to take your time and be thoughtful about the job you take next, because it would good to make the next one last 2+ years.

    5. Trisha*

      For my public service area, we’re often looking for experience gained over a certain period during another extended period – like:
      12 months experience in X within the past 36 months; or
      2 years experience in X within the past 5 years.

      It can be cumulative though so if your jobs were similar, it would still be fine. You would just need to clearly articulate that (i.e. from xx to xx at company a [8 months] and from xx to xx at company b [17 months] experience in X [cumulative experience is 25 months in the past 5 years).

    6. Educator*

      I worked in public education administration, and moving around with some longer and shorter stints was not a flag for me at all. I wanted to know more about what the deal was if a candidate had a sustained pattern of short stays. And in some public-sector roles, when you leave matters more, because it can say a lot about your commitment to the work and your team. I would definitely wonder about a finance team member who left right in audit season, a school-based team member who left a month before the end of the year, etc. So it might be worth thinking about that too.

    7. A Penguin!*

      Your tenure wouldn’t bother me.

      In general, I like to see at least a year in early jobs (1st or 2nd ‘professional’ job), and for mid/late career candidates (people with over 10 years total experience) I like to see at least half their jobs hit 4-5 years and not more than one or two positions of under a year.

      Retail or clearly labeled temp/contract work is exempt from my scrutiny of tenure unless it’s really short (like single-month).

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I hire medical coders — individual contributors with required certifications — but different health care organizations train their coders to different levels. So while I’m looking for an overall cumulative total of experience in the specific area of work – three years of coding experience – a bunch of short stints at a large hospital, which I would expect to have a longer training period due to the complexity of the case mix, will be more of a red flag than short stints at much smaller organizations like family practices that would have a shorter training period because they wouldn’t be doing as many or as complex cases. Basically, how likely does it look that you’re booking it out of a job before you even finish training. Heh.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Government has its own rules for hiring, so I am often limited in who I can select. The answer will depend on the job and the applicant pool. Over a year in a position wouldn’t be a problem for an entry level job. For a senior position it would depend on the competition, but a record of job hopping would be a concern.

  36. ConstantlyComic*

    I’ve been looking into going to grad school for a degree associated with the field in which I work–this degree is typically required for higher-level positions and the median salary for people with the degree in my area is almost double that of those without it, so it makes sense for me to do it if I want to stay in this field. My workplace is generally pretty accommodating towards people working towards the degree (my supervisor got his a few years ago while also working there full-time, and I’ve talked to him about my intentions), and there are a couple of universities in my state that offer the program completely online, but I’m concerned about the general stress and balance issues, especially since I’ve suffered from pretty bad academic burnout in the past. Does anyone who was in a similar situation in the past have any general advice about how to budget time when both working full-time and attending grad school?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I did two simultaneous masters degrees (one fully online, one hybrid) while working full-time.

      An accommodating workplace will help a lot – if you have some wiggle room in your schedule and can work entirely or partially from home, those were the two biggest things for me, especially in semesters where I had an online class (my school was about an hour away from home).

      Figure out ahead of time what balls you can drop — that might be planning to cook less and eat more takeout, embrace the dust bunnies or hire a cleaner instead of spending a lot of time on housework, having your groceries delivered instead of going out and doing your own shopping. Find where you can make time and lean into it.

      Calendar like your sanity depended on it, because it probably does. I booked a weekly slot, Tuesdays 5-9pm, and if I had homework, that’s when I did it. Obviously sometimes it overflowed that slot, but the point is, nothing else took that slot unless I legitimately had no schoolwork that could be done. Conversely, I also booked a weekly slot, Thursdays 5-9pm, and that was ALWAYS me time. For you, it might be Wednesday night trivia at the pub, or a Saturday morning hike with your dog, brunch with your partner, or whatever — book YOU TIME that does not get pushed out of the way for SCHOOL TIME or WORK TIME. Put your assignments (ALL of them, even the weekly quiz you’ll remember because it’s every week, because some week you won’t) on the calendar, and flag yourself milestones on the big ones. (Example, a big term paper: set a deadline, topic by week 3, outline by week 6, draft by week 9, whatever. Even if none of this is required to be turned in, break it down for yourself.)

      Remind yourself — this too shall pass. (And so shall you! ) It will almost certainly suck sometimes. I hit a point in the middle of literally every semester where I was hauling out Excel and doing the “what do I have to score on the remaining assignments to get a B-” math. (That doesn’t mean I was settling for a B- — I finished both degrees with an A- average – but sometimes knowing the baseline helps settle the brain weasels. :P ) But it will end, and the schedule will go back to normal, and at the end of it, you’ll have a shiny graduate degree. :)

      1. ConstantlyComic*

        Unfortunately given the nature of the job, I doubt I can manage much working from home, but my supervisor has generally been good about giving non-public-facing time to people who need it, and since I’m pretty sure he worked on school-related things in his office when he was getting the degree, he can’t exactly call me out too hard for doing the same thing, lol.

        The calendar advice is really helpful, especially since I’m not the most organized person in the world. Did you find yourself frequently overflowing from your designated school time?

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I didn’t very often — occasionally a little bit extra on weekends, if I had bigger assignments going on, or group sessions. (Ugh. Group work. :P ) But by the time I got to grad school, I was actually going on years of full-time-work-and-full-time-school-simultaneously — I did an associate’s degree 2010-2011, a bachelor degree 2011-2014, grad school for the two masters 2014-2018 and then another bachelor degree (there were reasons I promise) in 2018-2019, all while working full time for the most part, and now I don’t know what to do with my free time so I still take random classes at the local community college. :P So I was plenty practiced at time management and smashing my homework into its allotted timeframe by then :)

    2. Chapeau*

      Grad school while working full time isn’t fun, but it doesn’t have to be horrible either. The summer I took four classes was horrible. The semester that followed, when I only needed 1, pretty nice.
      If possible, ease yourself into it with one class the first semester, and talk to others in your cohort about which classes need to be only class that semester and which can be done 2 per semester. It’s hard to take 2 heavy reading or research classes in the same semester.

      1. ConstantlyComic*

        Oh wow, four classes in a summer sounds like a lot! I definitely won’t be doing that if I can help it, since summer tends to be when my workplace is at its busiest.

        My supervisor recently finished getting the same degree I’m looking into at one of the schools where I will likely apply, so if I end up enrolling there, I can probably ask him directly (that school is one of the two in my state that offers the program entirely online, but is currently my second choice since the other one has more asynchronous classes available).

        1. Chapeau*

          Being so busy I barely had time to think was an excellent way to avoid the guy who cheated on me, but wanted to hang out since he was home for the summer and his new girlfriend was in their college town.
          I can procrastinate the heck out if something if I have endless time ahead of me to get it done, but if I have to schedule every second of my day I can manage to fit everything in. I have never been as organized as I was that summer!

    3. An Australian in London (currently in London)*

      I also did two Masters concurrently on campus in evenings and weekends while working full time.

      In addition to the many excellent answers already provided, I add: just never fall behind. You will not have time next week to do two weeks of reading and assessment items. Find a way to do whatever is required to do each week’s study in its allotted week.

      Another tip: do all the reading before class. I found that meant I could understand 75-98% of the material from a first pass on my own, and could use the classes to confirm and clarify. Many classmates did the opposite and their understanding and grades were worse for it: they wasted class time on first-pass learning, and had to do all follow up on their own.

    4. Tinkerbell*

      My spouse did this when we were first married – her work paid for one class per semester, so she ended up doing half a dozen or so before deciding the degree wouldn’t be worth the trouble. This was before we had kids and when we were both working, but her hours were somewhat flexible (9-5ish but salaried, not hourly) and mine were more variable. It certainly didn’t help our marriage, simply because there were lots of things that weren’t getting done (dishes, laundry, grocery shopping) and we hadn’t fully sorted out a division of labor yet. That said, it was helpful to be SUPER organized ahead of time with homework and studying (not my wife’s forte, and part of why she opted to discontinue the degree) and also to budget out free time parsimoniously as absolutely necessary. She got less sleep than she deserved and was generally irritable for about three years straight. Things got a bit easier when I dropped down to part-time, because I was able to pick up on some of the household stuff, but it was still exhausting for both of us.

      Probably not the anecdata you wanted to hear, sorry!

  37. Scribbles*

    I have heard thirdhand that someone on my team may be a Holocaust denier; let’s call him Percy. I have not witnessed Percy talking about this myself, but a coworker on a different team told me that she heard it secondhand from a third member of my team. On a personal level, I feel that denying the Holocaust is unconscionable. On a work level, it’s not only horrible and harmful but, in my opinion, dangerously close to discrimination based on religion, national origin, race, and sexuality.

    I know I need to verify that this is true and also talk to Percy about how this is inappropriate for him to talk about it. My working script so far is “Percy, I’ve heard secondhand that you’ve been speaking at work about the Holocaust and questioning if it actually happened. Can you tell me about that?” And if he does say he doesn’t believe it, I’d continue with “While I can’t change what you believe, there is a huge amount of documentation of the Holocaust occurring. But whether or not you agree, it’s really harmful to deny its existence and furthermore not appropriate to discuss at work. Moving forward, I need you to not engage in conversations about it.”

    Any thoughts from you all?

    I also have been told (again thirdhand) that he doesn’t believe the earth is round, that we landed on the moon, and other scientific things. Those are obviously also bonkers, but I’m not sure I have standing to talk to him about those since they don’t cross into quite the same level as denying genocide.

    1. CheesePlease*

      I wouldn’t talk to him directly as this sounds like gossip (about something very serious!). I would reach out to the member of your team who discussed this with your other coworker and ask “I’ve heard some things you were sharing with others about Percy. Can you tell me about that?”. If they then proceed to tell you that Percy went on a big speech about denying the Holocaust then you can approach him directly, citing specific phrases or things he may have said that are a violation of your workplace code of conduct, or would be considered discrimination.

      1. Scribbles*

        Yes, I’m absolutely going to take this step first! Just mentally preparing myself for it to be not just gossip…

        1. CheesePlease*

          Ok! And this certainly isn’t a topic like, idk believing that everyone should worship lizards that you can just ask him to stop giving lizard pictures so being prepared makes sense. I think you can clearly say something more direct. “Thanks for explaining your beliefs Percy. Making comments about denying the holocaust violate Company X’s policy on workplace conduct and anti-discrimination. This is not saying you cannot personally hold those beliefs, but discussing them at work, with clients etc will not be tolerated” And then just repeat that it will not be tolerated no matter what he says.

        2. Tinkerbell*

          Are you HR? Or in his chain of command in some way? Because if not, then you probably have no standing to fire him or give him consequences either, which makes confronting him not very helpful :-\

    2. WellRed*

      You heard from a coworker on a different team who heard it from a third person. Were soup cans involved? Are you Percy’s supervisor? Is there a reason why you haven’t spoken to this other person to get a clearer idea? I also feel like holocaust deniers usually have a bunch of other wacko red flags that are hard to hide. Has Percy done Anything To make you concerned?

      1. Scribbles*

        The coworker I heard it from is a manager who heard it from a 3rd manager who worked closely with Percy during his training (he just started). This really just happened yesterday afternoon, and the 3rd manager is out this weekend, so I haven’t been able to ask them about it. I know it sounds very convoluted, but since it’s all at manager level, I’m not classifying this a random gossip. I haven’t seen anything in Percy to warrant alarm, but I don’t work directly with him most days. I’m not Percy’s direct manager, but I am defacto HR, despite that not being my main role, so I would be the person with the standing to have this convo with him if it’s needed.

        So I know my first step is to talk with the 3rd manager who has worked directly with Percy, but just preparing myself for this in case it needs to happen!

        1. Cordelia*

          I’m really unclear who has actually heard Percy talking about the Holocaust? Did Percy say something to manager 3 during the training? Is manager 3 his manager? in which case, isn’t it something they should be addressing themselves?

        2. Hen in a Windstorm*

          He brought this all up during his training? Holy cats! I predict he will not last long. Being an evangelizing Holocaust-denying flat-earther means you will likely have other issues to deal with quite soon.

        3. Emma2*

          An employee managed to bring up the fact that he is a Holocaust denier shortly after staring with your company? I would be speaking to HR about what steps I needed to take to terminate that employee (frankly I would be speaking to HR about termination if any of my employees did this). Holocaust denial is fundamentally about antisemitism and hate speech, both of which are absolutely not acceptable. I can think of only two reasons someone would raise Holocaust denial – one would be to signal those beliefs to other like minded individuals so they can connect, and the other would be to signal those beliefs to the groups of people he hates (both are very problematic).
          Also, if Percy did not bring this up at work, but people were aware of it, eg because he is posting about it online, I would still be going to HR. I don’t think responding to hate speech is about being the thought police; hate speech is not a political disagreement, it is crossing a line that is fundamentally unacceptable.

        4. linger*

          If Percy is speaking openly, at work, about such beliefs/ ignorance, it would be surprising if Percy’s social media accounts did not also openly signal the same beliefs/ ignorance under his real name. So some direct verification may be possible before you have to have a conversation.

  38. Anon for this one*

    I know Alison has addressed this before, but I can’t seem to find it in the archives. My workplace recently implemented a title change that is absolutely bananas and will make it difficult for me to get another job in my field. (Keeping with the fruit theme, think “Banana Metrics Specialist” when my job is “Orchard Keeper” and has nothing to do with bananas or metrics.) How do I represent my original, more accurate title on my resume so I don’t get auto-rejected by ATS when seeking other orchard-related roles?

    1. Scribbles*

      I believe Alison usually recommends putting your real title first with the more accurate title in parentheses, like “Banana Metrics Specialist (Orchard Keeper)” – so if they call your current work to verify employment, they have the right title, butt hey can also understand what it is while skimming your resume.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think the usual suggestion is to use the common, familiar title and put the company-specific title in parentheses (with or without quotes). You can also reverse the order.

      Orchard Keeper (“Banana Metrics Specialist”)

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        Not sure if it’s just me, but the quotes make it look a little… snarky to me, like a little “sic” slipped in there (yes, I know the legit uses of sic and that isn’t one of them!)

        1. Anon for this one*

          Ha, I want so badly to be snarky about it! What a way to alienate an entire department by demonstrating that you neither understand nor value their work! I’ve been feeling too burned out to job search, but I see the writing on the wall.

    3. ecnaseener*

      IIRC, the advice from Alison was to just put it in parentheses like “Banana Metrics Specialist (Orchard Keeper)”

    4. Rick T*

      Your resume has what you put in it, it isn’t something you file at work for anyone to approve.

      If your resume isn’t posted for public access having a standard title there but non-standard job title in HR’s file at work shouldn’t be an issue.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Hard disagree.

        Many (most?) employers will do some sort of employement verication to your previous employers, even without a background check.

        It would be a BIG PROBLEM if a candidate’s resume says “Orchard Keeper” and then the former employer said, “Huh? No, they were the Banana Metrics Specialist.” Or even worse, “No, we’ve never had an Orchard Keeper.”

        The official title needs to be on the resume/application form.

    5. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Ha! I had a similar issue. My title “went with” a previous department name that was long gone, but my title still hung on, making no sense and having nothing to do with my job. On my resume, I put Training Analyst (Senior Analyst) because the first part matches HR records, and the second part is reality (there was no training anywhere in my job).

  39. Frankie Bergstein*

    How do you deal with people who are overtalkers? Specifically, I have a colleague who communicates like this:

    Me: When do you typically go to bed each night?
    Colleague: “well, it depends… if it’s a school night then this. If it’s a weekend then this. But if I’ve had coffee that day then this. But lately I’ve started taking Ambien so let’s see how it goes. Why are you asking? By when do you need to know? Should I check with my family members to make sure you get an accurate number?”

    This person also doesn’t listen and interrupts others when they are speaking. They also struggle to directly name an issue (e.g., “I disagree for X reason and suggest Y.”) As you can imagine, meetings go on (and on… and on…).

    Any advice on how I should deal with this? Just be prepared and take breaks before and after each meeting and set my own internal expectations that this will happen? Or perhaps something totally different, like interrupting her to say, “what I’m hearing is that your bedtime varies – is that right? That’s all I need to know for now.”

    1. Scribbles*

      If it’s a one-on-one meeting, I’d cut then off at a certain point and say something like “I feel like we’re getting a bit off track, but it sounds like your bedtime varies, is that right?” I think your script is great!

      If it’s a group meeting that you’re not leading, that gets a bit difficult, since it would be the meeting moderator’s “job” to keep people on track. But you could still use a variation of the above.

      You could also look at how you’re phrasing your questions – instead of “What time to do you go to bed?” you could say “In a brief answer, if no external factors change things, what time to do you go to bed on average?” Or if they’re disagreeing with something you’re proposing and they ramble – “Could you clarify a bit more succinctly what part of this you think won’t work?” or “I understand your examples here, but I’m having a hard time wrapping head around your actual feedback. Can you boil this down into what exactly you’re disagreeing with and suggesting instead?”

      I have this same problem with a colleague and I’m always trying to redirect him to stop giving me nano examples and condense it into something actionable!

    2. Short Answer Getter*

      I would probably ask the question, then say, “I don’t need an exact answer, just a range if you have it.” Sometimes it can help to specify that you need a short answer, e.g. I’m sure I’ve asked my colleagues, “can you give me like a two-sentence summary on this issue?”

      Of course your colleague might still respond with the same monologue but at that point you’ve warned them and it’s fair to then interrupt with the “What I’m hearing is that it varies…” that you mentioned.

    3. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I would honestly respond to odd questions like the bedtime one with a simple, “What’s up?”. Because the reason he’s asking is highly unlikely to be because he’s genuinely interested in your bedtime. More likely he’s struggling with not getting enough sleep but lacks social skills to ask his peers how much sleep they get for comparison.

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        Oops – the question was meant to be a general example rather than something I’d actually ask.

        I agree, it’d be weird for your colleague to ask that unless you weee like working towards a tight deadline and coordinating.

        1. Sabine the Very Mean*

          Oh dear! I totally misread this and flipped who was talking to whom. I’m sorry Frankie Bergstein! I’m on board now. I somehow thought you meant this was the type of person who asks a question but really wants an answer to the secret, hidden question. Ugh.

    4. Mary S*

      I’m probably a bit like your coworker and what really helps me is if people tell me why they’re asking what they’re asking. In your example, maybe something like:

      “I’m trying to schedule a meeting with our overseas colleagues. How late is too late for you to meet during the workweek? When do you usually go to bed?”

      Also, try not to make questions open-ended if possible. “Would 8 pm on Wednesday work for you?”

      Or, move conversations to writing. “I’m trying to schedule a meeting with our overseas colleagues. How late is too late for you to meet during the workweek? Can you fill out this spreadsheet with your availability?”

      And finally, prep helps too. If you send me questions in advance or have an agenda for the meeting, I can think up an answer without rambling. Also, having an agenda can help move a meeting along because you can say, “According to the agenda, we have 2 minutes to go over this – can you meet with our overseas colleagues at 8 pm on Wednesday?” “According to the agenda, we need to move on now. I’ll follow up on this by email after the meeting.”

      For solving the coworker not listening, maybe you can ask them to take notes, if that would make sense for the meeting? Perhaps you could also make it clear who’s expected to talk by saying something like, “Let’s give Alice two minutes to go over her feedback on this.”

      I think the other suggestions are good, too. I don’t mind being interrupted if I’m going on.

      1. Employed Minion*

        Me too! If I seem to be rambling to answer a question, I’m either verbalizing my thought process or, from my perspective, the question is too vague or too broad and I don’t know what information you’re looking for. Telling me the ‘why’ behind the question -and context- helps a LOT.

        For not listening: if possible, use their name. People are wires to listen when they hear their name. Something like ‘I go to bed at this time but it sounds like colleague’ bedtime varies. How can we standardize that? (Or whatever).

        For talking over others: Some people do this in an attempt the understand what is being said and to build on whatever is being said -it sounds weird but there are multiple people in my life who do this- Some in-the-moment redirections may be helpful. ‘OP, it seemed like you weren’t done with your thought. What were you saying?’

        Hopefully, this helps. The other suggestions are very good as well

  40. Bad Boss Haver*

    I’m coming off a really bad 1.5 year experience with a boss who sucked (the typical bad boss hall of fame: taking work away, setting me up to fail with an external, talking over me, asking me to run a meeting then shushing me and pushing his agenda then acting offended when I asked him why, negging me, blaming me for his mistakes-the reason I quit, insulting my language skills, telling me I didn’t act professionally… it’s wild). I’ve had therapy and job coaching and I’m in as good of a place I can be but I have three problems as I start my new job next week (not in the us)

    1. What red flags do I need to look for to make sure I’m not jumping from frying pan into fire? What are the green flags? One green flag I already saw is I have an official onboarding/training. That’s good, right?

    2. Interview process was good and I liked my future boss, if the new place is normal, how do I make sure not to punish new job for old job? How to be normal?

    3. I live in a place that gives official written references rather than phone references (Switzerland). Because I have a legal case here for constructive dismissal, with hr at old job I’m planning on going the route of « I went away quietly and didn’t take you to court so if you don’t want to go to court I’m going to need a decent reference letter » when they send me what I know will be a bad one (it’s the only thing this boss can do to get me one last time because I already have a job and in my field people are more likely to call the immediate prior job I had for ten years, who loved me).

    New job wants this letter for my Hr file next week. In interviews I just said old job was a bad fit, that I thought I was hired to be a llama groomer but they had me running the llama groomer ticket desk but not grooming at all (old boss said if I was good at ticketing I could maybe stretch into llama grooming, a job I held successfully for ten years prior). I also mentioned that at old job I wasn’t allowed to speak my foreign languages when that was a promise at hire, which was the only mildly negative thing I said (they still hired me so obviously I finessed how I said it better than here, this was also in German so I’m translating ). I will never tell new job how bad old job was, I just want to move on.

    All that to say: I’m thinking of just running the clock on old job’s letter with new job, telling them hr has been out for the holidays (while I or my lawyer hash it out because poor hr who can’t get it together for the letters are a thing) and I will check in when I know more. Is running the clock and not getting into it the right approach?

    1. PX*

      Definitely run the clock until you can get a neutral if not positive reference letter! Blame slow admin, the holidays, covid, snow, rain or sun but definitely stall for time!

  41. Harley*

    I work in a decent size company that has about 180 employees. When someone new gets hired, there’s an email that goes out and that’s about it. If the new hire doesn’t work in your department/floor then it’s not all that likely you’ll meet right away.

    About two months ago a new woman was hired, let’s call her Amber. I saw her welcome email, I think I might have had to message her once or twice during that time, but nothing face to face. Until last week when I happened to go into the department she works in and when I see her face, I realized ohhh, I know this woman. She just so happened to be on my favorite reality TV shows about 8 years ago or so. Think a competition show, not a romantic one and not a talent one and it’s still on the air now.

    I didn’t say anything to her about it when I realized because I felt awkward as heck if I just blerted it out. But the thing is I kinda want to ask her about it! I love the show, I loved her season and I liked her on the show a lot. She didn’t win, she did fairly well and was involved in a cool moment on the show.

    I just feel kinda awkward on how to bring it up. I don’t think she has any reason to be ashamed of the show. I kinda stalked her on social media when I got home and saw she does follow other contestants on Twitter and Insta but she didn’t seem to post a lot about her experience (probs because it was a long time ago!)

    I don’t want to like, pretend that this isn’t why I’m talking to her but I also don’t want to just be super weird because she is just a normal person! I know she isn’t a celebrity, I don’t want an autograph or photo, I kinda just want to… talk to her? Work friends, maybe?

    Any advice on how I should or if I should approach her or just see if it happens naturally? I kinda don’t want to pretend I don’t know who she is if we talk, I feel like not bringing it up right away would make it weirder if I ask about it later. Chances are we wouldn’t really run into each other often at work. If it helps, we’re both female and in our early 40’s.

    1. yogurt*

      I think it would make sense to use it as a way to spark friendly conversation! If you can find a natural moment where you might have 5 or 10 minutes to talk, just bring it up like, “This is crazy, but were you on X Show back in 20XX?”

      If you use that as the base of your conversation but then also segway into more normal small talk: “How long have you lived in X town?” / “What did you do for the holidays?” then it just becomes part of the conversation and a safe topic to bring up for future rapport…also, you might find once you get into a convo with her that maybe you don’t mesh at all – but then at least you know!

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Hm, good question. I dunno how she FEELS about the reality show and the attention, though….she might be cool with being asked, she might want to be on the down low and not be recognized these days.

      I’d probably lean towards “if it comes up in conversation naturally,” but you have a point on “I don’t want to pretend I don’t know who she is” either.

    3. Never Knew I Was a Dancer*

      I’m pretty sure there was a letter here some time ago from a LW who was a former reality show contestant. I’d recommend doing a search and taking a look at that.

      It’s possible they don’t necessarily want their reality show persona or background to be part of their work life/real life. Does anything on their social media profiles indicate that they keep those two things separate, or do they let them cross over at all? My take: I’d take my cues from that at first and get to know them at work a bit to get a sense of who they actually are before bringing up the reality show stuff.

  42. TacoBelljobfar*

    Good news I finally got paid from that guy who wanted free work! I was getting upset and antsy. I was going to send him a message next week telling him that he has not paid me and it’s already 2023. Luckily I did not have to do that.

  43. A Micromanager By Any Other Name*

    Hello all. I am curious to get your thoughts on this because I’m at a loss.

    CONTEXT: Over the summer, I recently started a new job where I manage a small team of half full-time employees and half contract workers.

    About a month ago, my boss changed the subject in my one-on-one to say he talked to Contract Worker Alex, and Alex said I micromanage him. Taken aback, I asked if he can provide examples of this as I was totally flummoxed. I’ve managed teams for a couple of years, I’ve never had this accusation before and in fact been praised for not having lost anyone in the “Great Resignation” in my last role.

    My boss couldn’t provide examples, and I thought about it and reached out to my boss the following day about what I can do because I’m at a loss. I even spent an hours researching symptoms of micromanaging on this site and in general on my own time and saw nothing that I did was micromanaging. In fact, since he’s missed some arbitrary deadlines (nothing mission critical), it could be said I’m not managing closely enough.

    A couple of weeks went by, and nothing came up, but when a task from a partner department came to me, then a day later (by mistake) was duplicated by someone else in the partner department and assigned to Alex (which I caught, confirmed, and corrected (cc’ing everyone), Alex accused me of micromanaging him again.

    Taking his feelings seriously, I scheduled a meeting when I discussed the partner department mistake and how it led to overlap and since I was assigned first I took it over. Since I had the time, and the accusation was refreshed, I asked about the micromanaging and asked for previous examples (since this newest thing was a simple misunderstanding). One of Alex’s main responses was that I take notes in meetings and he finds that micromanaging.

    I admittedly was at a loss since I take notes in all of my meetings and have been complimented for my organizational skills. Plus, since when is taking notes considered micromanaging?!?! Alex sees that I bring my laptop and take notes in all meetings regardless of who I meet with or the subject matter.

    I asked my boss about it, and he admitted that’s a weak argument for a micromanaging claim. He said I have to delve more into the psychology of it all, but that seems unnecessary to me because Alex is almost 40. I can theorize it’s probably insecurity on Alex’s part because I know how to do his job (a first for the dept since Alex started), we’re really slow, and he’s scared of not being made a permanent employee. But we need overlap for vacation coverage. The work can’t stop when he takes time off which is what I feel he wants to feel valued.

    But now my boss checks in with my entire team and reports on everything they say. For example, I was asked about a department head letting an F-bomb drop in a meeting we were in (they apologized immediately). But I got in trouble even though I didn’t say it because one of my staff found it offensive (but said nothing to me about it). I told my boss the person apologized immediately, they’re above me in title and I didn’t think it was my place to say anything. He dropped the issue, but it’s concerning to me that my boss talks about petty issues in this much detail. I talked to my friends who are also people managers and they say ironically that I’m the one being micromanaged.

    I realize I’m now being put into a defensive state and I am not sure what to do. I’ve never had these accusations thrown at me before and because my boss is choosing to get so involved it’s going to forever poison his view of me. What would you do? Many have said to cancel Alex’s contract which I could do, but, then there is no coverage for my vacations and sick leave plus it seems really shady under these circumstances but that could be Alex’s motivation for it all.

    1. kiwiii*

      Sounds like your boss sucks tbh. I’m sorry.

      As for actionable stuff, I would try and have a straightforward conversation with both of them about it separately.

      for boss — “I’d like to talk about a couple issues I’ve been seeing pop up and wanted more information from you/some guidance around them. We discussed Alex’s claim of micromanaging and landed at X; is there anything additional i should be doing around that? anything you’d like me to adjust in general? if (example similar to thing that’s making you defensive or — i heard there was some discussion around swearing incident — or something) happens, how would you like me to handle it in the future?”

      for alex, you can be just as striaghtforward — “lets discuss our working relationship and expectations. You’ve raised concerns X and Y around micromanaging, but these are not micromanaging, but rather tools used to do my job. Is there another way you would prefer me to handle situations like A or B in the future?” and you can listen to him, but if they’re not functional, they’re not functional.

      1. A Micromanager By Any Other Name*

        Thank you for responding. I really liked my boss personally, but after our latest conversation, I’m starting to realize that there is a micromanagement issue and it’s not me and I will have to speak to him about it.

    2. Rick T*

      If Alex thinks having accurate notes of a meeting is ‘micromanaging’ then you probably need to take a really close look at his work in general. The fact that he is threatened by you taking notes should be a red flag something is *very* wrong.

      1. Rick T*

        Also, you said Alex had been only person with his skill set before your arrival, making his resistance to having meeting notes even more concerning.

        If he is doing the specialized tasks in a properly timely manner and to a normal standard he shouldn’t care if you take notes. Now that you are there he has a manager who can judge his performance.

        1. Cj*

          And if Alex was the only one with that skill set, who covered for him when he was out? Why couldn’t they cover for the OP if Alex’s contract was terminated?

          1. A Micromanager By Any Other Name*

            Thank you for responding. Alex started a month prior to me, and because he is a contractor, does not have paid leave so he hasn’t taken any time off. Prior to him starting this specific work stopped and we’ve since resumed it now that the department is fully staffed.

            I’ve found out that there has been A LOT of turnover in the department which my manager has blamed on the great resignation because it’s been company-wide)

      2. A Micromanager By Any Other Name*

        Thank you for responding. The same thought crossed my mind as well, and I wasn’t sure if I was thinking it because it was a massive red flag, or if I’m now frustrated and taken aback by the nonsense of this whole situation.

        I’m also wondering if there is a workable solution on this level of micromanagement because people don’t normally change that much in my professional experience.

    3. But Not the Hippopotamus*

      People can accuse you of stuff… that doesn’t make it true nor does it indicate a problem.

      So, maybe go back to your boss and say something like, “I know we talked about the feedback that Alex gave where they felt I was micromanaging. From talking with you and with them, one misunderstanding with another group came up and the only other thing was that I take notes in meetings. I think you and I can agree that taking notes in meetings is not micromanaging, but a tool many people use to help them remember important details. Given this, can we agree that whatever is going on, it is not micromanaging?”

      Also, maybe talk to Alex and say something like, “You’ve mentioned that you feel you are micromanaged, but the only thing that’s concrete that’s come up is my taking notes. Since many people take notes in meetings, regardless of whether they are managers or not, and it’s a tool I use to help me track important information, that’s not something we can consider managing or that we can realistically change. Are there other concerns you have, or is there somebody else you feel is micromanaging you?”

      That last part is because maybe somebody else is doing stuff they feel is coming from you, but you don’t even know about.

      You might wrap up with something like, “It seems that you aren’t happy in the position right now. If there are things that we can reasonably do to change that, I’d like to know.” (assuming it’s true).

    4. PX*

      You have a boss problem not an Alex problem. I mean, Alex is probably a problem too but your boss is the bigger one. Basically you need to start understanding whether your bosses perception of you is going to change based on whatever the people you manage say (whether it’s valid or not) and how to handle that. But this is a bad boss FYI.

      1. A Micromanager By Any Other Name*

        Thank you for responding. As I look back on things now and talk to people and this forum as a touchstone, I am realizing that things are off. As annoying as being micromanaged is, I’m good at what I do and document well enough that I have no problem, but taking it to my management style and going behind my back to my staff is something that I can’t get behind.

    5. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      While I agree that both Alex and your boss are jerks and/or poor communicators, I wanted to offer a slightly different perspective that if Alex considers himself more of a consultant than a contract employee, he might feel like he should be doing his “work” [whatever that is] with little to no direction from you. And in fact if he is a consultant, he’s right about that. I understand that you taking notes in meetings isn’t giving direction, but maybe give some passing thought to if him being classified as a contractor is leading to some misunderstanding overall about supervision in this role. Of course, maybe he needs enough supervision that he is misclassified as a contractor… but that might be another letter!

      1. A Micromanager By Any Other Name*

        Thank you for responding. In our company, a “contractor” is a temp. Usually temp-to-perm, but not always. He knew when my role was filled that he would have a boss he would be reporting to.

  44. hamachi*

    How much nonsense should you put up with in regards to jobs? Broken websites? Waiting over an hour to be interviewed? Insane recruiters? Some other job advice giver said to put up with it, but how much is too much?

    1. kiwiii*

      it depends on what the job is, if there are red flags outside of the job recruiting process (just as often unrelated to actual job conditions), and how picky you can afford to be.

    2. RagingADHD*

      How good is your gut in other respects? And how badly do you need a job?

      Without more context, I’d say one major thing, or two to 3 middling things, or 3 to 5 minor things are enough to put me off.

  45. Flying Fish*

    Signing up for education when you’re leaving your job, or may be losing it.

    I’m pretty sure that my job will vanish within the next two-three months, and I have education funds and time available. Is it wrong to schedule some education knowing it won’t benefit my current employer who is paying for it? It would still be relevant to me and will count towards maintaining my professional certifications.

    The education funds and the time are part of my compensation package. As long as I sign up in 2022, the funds come out of my 2022 budget, even if the education occurs in 2023. I have worked here throughout 2022. My employer is a large and well off organization, but it’s very unlikely my particular office will exist in a few months. I’m actively job searching because in my field it can take 3-4 months between accepting a position and actually starting.

    It feels a little icky and like I could be taking advantage, but is it? Is it one of those things that’s technically okay but has weird optics?

    1. I am always tired*

      Man, maybe it’s just who I am as a person, but I don’t see the problem with signing up for education at all. 1) It’s part of your compensation, that you’ve earned by working this year and 2) You’re not even planning to leave your employer per se, you’re employer is (likely) leaving you. Get the compensation you can while it still exists!

    2. Asenath*

      I wouldn’t have thought there was any problem with it at all – unless, of course, you couldn’t complete the education before your office no longer existed and you became unemployed. The employer budgeted for this education, and provided it to you as a perk, that is, as part of your compensation. Use it now, before you lose it.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Have they announced that your job might not exist? Are they making plans to find you a new spot within the company? Is that something you’d want to do?

      Personally, I’d request what I would request otherwise, and let them make the decision.

    4. FashionablyEvil*

      Nothing’s firm about your future job and you worked the full year the money was budgeted for. Take it.

    5. Samwise*

      Nothing icky here. It’s part of your compensation. Take it.

      Also, although you may feel pretty sure your office and your job will be gone soon, you don’t actually KNOW it. You don’t know the date it will be gone (maybe it will be 5 months or 10 or 2 years). You don’t know that if office/job vanish that they want you to go or stay.

    6. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I retired at the end of 2021. In November of that year I finished off all my education money (had already used the time). Nothing wrong with that – it was part of my compensation package, I used it for approved activities, and my boss signed off on it.

  46. Bobarista*

    I have 3 new hires in a small cafe that I own and manage. I am having issues with the one girl (we’ll call her Sarah). In the past month that she’s been here, she has missed a total of 4 shifts. 3 shifts have been call-outs due to illness and 1 was her second ever shift due to vehicle malfunctions (although I have reason to believe that this may be untrue due to the fact that her boyfriend was visiting from out of town). She is nice enough but so far, I’ve been unimpressed with her reliability. I’ve followed Alison’s advice and had a frank discussion with her after her first missed shift about my low tolerance for absenteeism and what I expect of her going forward. However, I don’t know if the sick call outs are excuses or if she is genuinely sick (I have requested a doctors note for next time). In any case, where I’m located, I can fire without cause within the first 90 days. Do I have another discussion with her about missing shifts? Being sick these days is a good reason to not come in so how would I approach this? Or do I just cut her loose?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’m guessing that she doesn’t have sick leave coverage. And a doctor’s note may or may not be relevant, depending on the situation.

      I’d look at when she calls out — does she call in a timely way so that coverage can be arranged? Have you said specifically that her absences are having an impact on how the business runs, and whether you can depend on her for the number of shifts you originally discussed?

      If not, that’s the conversation to have. It’s important to be respectful of your employee’s health, but if there are factors that suggest that these sick days are something else, then that needs to be solved.

      Either she’ll pull it together next month, or you can start looking for someone who can be reliable — either by giving more scheduled shifts to the other employees if they are interested, or finding someone who can either replace or fill in for Sarah.

      1. Bobarista*

        I appreciate that response. She typically calls out a couple hours prior to her shift and sometimes there is other staff available but mostly I end up covering. I do want to be respectful of health issues especially with the times we live in now however, I don’t want to have sick call outs become an excuse for everything. With your suggestion, perhaps approaching it as, “are the number of shifts working for you or do we need to reduce them so there’s not as much strain on your health?” would be better?

    2. Rick T*

      If she isn’t more reliable in the next month there is no reason to keep her on longer. Start recruiting for more staff now.

    3. A Penguin!*

      I think Sarah’s absences are in the ‘high but not crazy’ range. Sometimes things happen in a cluster, and sometimes that cluster is badly timed relative to other things. Assuming you’re otherwise happy with her when she is there, I would make sure she understands what ‘sufficiently reliable’ means to you, and wait and see until closer to the 90. This means “I expect no more than n callouts in y period” not “I need you to be reliable”.

      Also, I wouldn’t require the dr note. You either trust her or not, and the note is a waste of her & the doctor’s time & money, especially if it’s an illness that is minor enough to not require the doctor’s input.

      1. Bobarista*

        After reflection, I do agree with you on the doctors note – it was probably more of a knee-jerk reaction than anything. She had mentioned her whole family was sick and she was going to the doctors so perhaps that’s part of it.

        I will have a discussion with her prior to her next shift regarding reliability – I like your suggestion about putting more of a number to it and maybe it will require me to reduce the number of shifts for her. I don’t want to seem uncaring but I also need to care for my business and ensure it’s success.

    4. Educator*

      Please don’t call your employee a “girl.” I assume you are not hiring children, so she is a professional who needs to be treated with respect. In keeping with that theme of professionalism, do you have a clear sick leave policy that you can review with her outlining when it is appropriate to call out in the context of your business needs and how to do so? If I were your customer, I would not want someone coughing into my coffee, so I would default towards believing her. (And asking for a doctor’s note feels expensive and unnecessary if she is not the kind of sick that requires medical intervention.) But a conversation about how you can support her–perhaps more communication about the schedule in advance? any accommodations if her illness is triggered by something on the job?–could be a good next step. Think collaborative, not punitive.

      1. Bobarista*

        I meant no offense in calling her a girl (most of my staff are highschool students).
        We are located in Canada and therefore getting a doctors note doesn’t cost anything but time – regardless, I do admit that was probably more of a knee jerk reaction. We do however have a sick leave policy that has been communicated since the beginning (reiterated during my first discussion with her) however, each situation is different and I try to take that into account. I do want all of my employees to succeed – I like your last comment about collaboration. I have a tendency to give too many chances and I’ve been taken advantage of in the past so perhaps that’s why I’m hesitant about this one. I plan to have a discussion with her when she returns to work about whether we need to reduce her shifts to make it easier on her health.

        1. Emma2*

          That’s not quite correct, doctors can (and often do) charge for notes in Canada – these notes are not covered by provincial healthcare reimbursement as they are not medically necessary so doctors can charge for them. Also, pubic healthcare services are a shared resource – the doctors’ time spent on that unnecessary appointment comes at a cost to the public; that is a very inefficient use of medical resources (while the doctor can charge for preparing the note, the actual health check will go on the public bill).

    5. Moonlight*

      It sounds like this employee is new. I am wondering if you’d feel different if she’d been around for a while? I ask this because you don’t know her as well as older staff, thus making her seem unreliable to you.

      Also, I’m wondering if you’d feel different if she’d called out a day or 2 before? Obviously with illness, it’s hard to tell. Plus, I know I had a mean boss where I told her the day before I was very sick with the flue and would need the next day off and even that I got ikto trouble for because apparently I should’ve waited until the morning to tell her just in case I felt better and I was like (a) given how sick I was, that’s unlikely (b) I didn’t think you’d appreciate finding out an hour before you expected me that I wouldn’t be coming in due to an illness I knew I had the day before (c) even if I had stopped literally vomiting all the time, I wasn’t going to expose my colleagues to something when I was clearly quite sick. I digress though; my point is that for most “reasonable” people, knowing ahead of time is beneficial. I’m assuming you’re a reasonable person who’s low tolerance for absenteeism comes from running a small cafe means that the nature of your work means you don’t have many options for short notice coverage in a situation where you need said coverage. So I’m wondering if you can come at it from that way. Can you ask staff to let you know the day before whenever possible to seek coverage? Can you afford to hire another person? I don’t know how cafes work; I’m just wondering what you can do there.

      This last part might not help because it sounds like it’s just the 1 person, but hopefully it helps as a launching off point for solutions.

      1. Bobarista*

        She is new and it’s entirely possible that I’m comparing her to more senior staff. My low tolerance stems from previous employees who would call out for more and more ridiculous reasons, telling me one thing and other staff another. I simply do not want to be taken advantage of. I want to be fair and understanding but at the end of the day, I need my business to run successfully. I also need to be fair to my other staff who end up picking up the slack when we are short staffed.
        Being sick is a real thing and I know I’ve been there! I’m just trying to find a balance. The suggestion of earlier call outs is a good one and some of my staff have done that in the past – gives me a chance to try to find a cover for them.

    6. Cj*

      So what exactly did you tell her what you expect going forward? That she not get sick? (unrealistic) That she comes to work sick? (a really bad idea.)

      One call out for being sick should not have led to a serious discussion, or really, any discussion at all, even if was shortly after she was hired, since you can’t control when you get sick.

      After the second call out, and especially the third, a discussion is warranted. But even then, I’m not how you could frame it as what you expect in the future, as the only two options I can see are what I mentioned above. It should be more along the lines of you understand she can’t help it if she is sick, but due to the need for coverage, you would need to let her go if the call outs continue.

      1. Bobarista*

        The first discussion with her was regarding her missing her second ever shift and making no effort to find someone to cover (which is my policy unless you are sick – in which case I find a cover). She wasn’t sick although her story about why she missed work was a little bit suspicious.

    7. M2*

      I would have a discussion with her about absenteeism but I wouldn’t ask for a doctors note for being sick. It’s that time of year and I would also offer masks to your employees on your dime maybe even mandating them for the day or two after they come back to work after illness.

      I just ate at a top restaurant last night and the hostess was coughing all over! She then coughed in her hands and proceeded to touch cutlery! It was so gross. The manager and staff saw and did nothing. I loved this establishment but will not be returning anytime soon. When I spoke with the manager I was told the hostess was not sick and I said well she should have worn a mask if she is coughing for another reason it’s not hygienic!

      If I went into your cafe and the baristas were coughing all over the place I would leave and find another. If she just started a month ago I would see how she is over the next couple weeks and I would look into more staff even maybe a PT person who can cover if you have call outs. Good luck!

      1. Clisby*

        I was wondering if it were possible to hire a PT backup person. My son is a college student, and is doing that for a restaurant where he worked last summer. They were glad to have him come back as a fill-in employee – he’s not guaranteed any particular hours, but their scheduling app shows how everyone’s scheduled for 2 weeks out and he can sign up for any open shifts that suit him. (He wasn’t looking for a job to support himself – just to have extra spending money. If employees here are often high school students, there might be somebody like that.)

  47. Bobarista*

    You are probably right that your boss is micromanaging you vs. you micromanaging Alex. Sounds like your boss has the backbone of a wet noodle and seems to take everything everyone else says at face value instead of determining the whole situation. I agree with the others that you should have a very frank and direct conversation with your boss. Sounds like you are doing your best to be a good employee and manager but perhaps Alex isn’t doing everything he should be if he’s worried by your note taking…

  48. Kesnit*

    I just want to get people’s opinions of a few things.

    Alison has posted letters about workplaces where some employees have extra access to leadership that others do not, due to circumstances. I may be in one of those positions, but I’m not sure how serious it is.

    My boss and I belong to the same gym and workout usually at the same time. This is not an expensive, exclusive gym. It’s actually the local franchise of a worldwide gym that pushes the “all are welcome here” theme. I didn’t pick this gym because my boss works out there. I originally joined in 2018 and only later found he works out in the same place. I let my membership lapse, but joined back in 2021 after things started opening up again (and I was diagnosed with T2D and wanted to keep it under control). I don’t work out with my boss (we use different machines and our workout times don’t usually match up 100%), but we will sometimes have brief conversations in the massage chairs or in the locker room.

    Also, my boss is an avid skiier. When I started here in 2017, he told me he has an open invitation for employees to go with him when he goes on a ski weekend. (We pay our own way.) I did go with him (and a 3rd co-worker) once in 2018, but then things got crazy and then COVID. He asked me recently when we are going skiing again.

    Both the gym membership and ski trips are things that any employee could take advantage of (though obviously my female coworkers wouldn’t be chatting with him in the locker room…) On one hand, I feel like this is innocuous. On the other, I do have access to the boss that others do not.

    Thoughts?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      This doesn’t seem particularly egregious.

      However, since you’re concerned and because clearly you’re aware of the inequities, I’d be particularly alert to not chatting about work at the gym, or using that familiarity to leverage into prime work assignments etc. Maybe pro-actively use that time to talk up your colleagues who might otherwise not be able to access your boss at these more physically active activities.

      1. Educator*

        That is exactly right–when you have extra access, the best move is to use it to give others, especially those who don’t have that access, opportunities too. If there is ever a way to use ski/gym time to suggest something more inclusive (“Hey, did you see the notice in the locker room about the cooking contest here next week? We should invite the team to come!”), that’s even better. Be the connector!

    2. Rick T*

      You live in the same community and are interested in the same things.

      The fact that you occasionally interact outside of work at a public facility isn’t any kind of issue I can see.

    3. Hen in a Windstorm*

      I think the gym is fine and the ski trips are not. “Technically, anyone can join in” is an excuse. Replace ski trip with golf outing and think about what that implies. Frankly, your boss shouldn’t have asked, but you definitely should not go.

      The ski weekend is you getting almost exclusive access to your boss for a whole weekend. Even if you don’t talk about work, you are bonding, and this really starts to sound like a boys club. He’ll think of you when plum assignments come up because you’ve bonded and your coworkers haven’t. Or other people will *think this is happening*, even if it isn’t. This is like when Alison talks about happy hours with only 1 or 2 employees – not okay.

      He really needs to act like the boss and make friends with people he doesn’t supervise.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Live your life and take full advantage of whatever opportunities are in your path. Any appearance of favoritism is your boss’s responsibility to manage, not yours.

      You aren’t blocking anyone else from going to the gym or going skiing. You are not taking up a scarce resource. You do not advance the cause of equality by pointlessly depriving yourself of opportunities to take care of your health or have a nice vacation.

      Encourage others to come, too. Be a buffer for those who feel shy. You have to be in the room to invite others into the room.

  49. AnonToday*

    One of the earlier comments on today’s open thread says not to tell your boss about a competing offer, but what if your boss is out the door themselves?

    I would like to stay at my current company, but will be receiving an offer for a higher title and pay from another company soon. My boss has already turned in their resignation and is on their final 2 weeks. Boss has stated they would like to stay in touch and be available in a mentorship role (I am early career), so I feel more comfortable about asking them if they think my current company would bump my title and pay. Any drawbacks to asking Boss about this?

    1. A Penguin!*

      I still wouldn’t do it while they are employed at your current company. The paraphrased contents of that conversation could end up as part of your boss’s hand-off to whomever is taking over for them.

      If you can possibly delay asking your boss until after their last day, great. But I wouldn’t do it before.

    2. Cj*

      It really doesn’t matter what he thinks their answer would be. The company would either say yes or no. If no, it doesn’t matter that you asked. If yes, and you agree to stay, you would be accepting a counter offer.

      *That* us what it generally isn’t a good idea, and is the whole point about not telling your boss about a competing offer.

      There have been many posts where Alison said why it’s not a good idea, so just search for counter offers if you don’t remember the details.

  50. Anon2023*

    I’ve been at my job for 12 years. This year the manager resigned and myself and another co-worker took over their duties. I did most of the heavy lifting and the co-worker did the lighter easier tasks (their choice). 10 months later it was announced that a new manager was hired from outside. At the same time the co-worker confided that they were offered the manager position but turned it down. I have my years of experience vs my co-workers 3 years. I was never offered the job and didn’t know a new manager had been hired until it was announced. It was the final straw in a long list of final straws so I’m going to resign. I’m giving a month’s notice because it’s hard to find workers in our field (food and hospitality). I know my leaving will leave a big gap because I’ve always been the one to fill in the gaps and generally be a good team player. It’s hard not to take this personally but I am. I’ve been offered another job and will walk into that one when this one is finished. My problem is what to say to the Big Manager when they ask why I am resigning. I don’t want to sound bitter and I don’t want to ask why they didn’t consider me for the promotion. At this point it doesn’t matter because I just want out. What is the best phrasing for “I quit and there is nothing you can offer me to keep me here?”

    1. Rick T*

      “Growth opportunities not available here” is fine, and why stay a month if two weeks is the norm?

      It being hard to hire to replace you isn’t your problem to solve, and any loyalty you have towards your (soon to be ex) co-workers is misplaced.

      2. Anon2023*

        One reason for one month’s notice is because at this time of year business is slow at the new job and they’re fine with my waiting a month to start. “Growth opportunities not available here” is perfect because for me to grow they must fire the new manager and replace them with me. Highly unlikely to happen since I wasn’t deemed worthy of being offered the job in the first place.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      why not just be bitter? Geezum! You’ve been used up and ignored.

      But yeah, you could also say “I need some growth opportunities, which don’t seem to be available to me here.”
      And why give them a month? Find a new position ASAP and give them 2 weeks. They’ve already set the stage for this outcome.

      1. Anon2023*

        I have a new position that starts in a month, hence the long notice. It’s the slow season for them but leaving early is tempting.

        1. Happy 2023!*

          Pointing out that you are already being self-sacrificing towards the new job (boundaries) and you haven’t even started! If you give two weeks notice, then take a two-week break to let go of bitterness, reset expectations, take care of stuff, maybe travel a bit, you can start that job renewed and excited. Alison has a bunch of stuff about not bringing old resentments onto the new job; maybe search for those? Finally, CONGRATULATIONS!!! Good luck at the new job!

    3. Cj*

      I’m not sure I would believe your coworker was actually offered the management position. You apparently only heard it from them, and they told you in confidence so you couldn’t ask anybody else.

      If the higher ups know that you are doing the heavy lifting, it just doesn’t make sense to offer it to them and not you. It makes way more sense that they would offer it to an outside person, but neither of you.

    4. Manchmal*

      What do you have to lose by just being straight with the GM and asking why you were not given the opportunity to at least interview for the position? If you keep an open mind you could learn something useful- either about you, how they perceived you, or about their own biases.

  51. WorkingRachel*

    I’m job hunting/career changing. My current job is in person and I have close relationships with my coworkers, two things that I really appreciate. I live alone and I think I would find it pretty isolating to work fully remote. I realize this doesn’t fit the usual bent here at AAM, but does anyone have suggestions for jobs that:

    a. Are fully or mostly in-person.
    b. Might tend towards people being social with each other and/or collaborating closely. I’m a 41F, so not really looking for the “20something tech bros play foosball” atmosphere, but I’d love to work somewhere where I might meet people to have coffee/get drinks with or that has some after-work socializing.

    My background is white-collar office work and I’m finding it a little challenging to find jobs that aren’t fully or mostly remote!

    1. RagingADHD*

      What resources are you using to look for listings? I find that the usual online sites skew heavily toward remote work, while local job boards (such as through the newspaper or even craigslist) have more in-person work.

      I also see a lot of listings that say “remote” as a keyword, when what they really mean is “hybrid” or “has a WFH option.”

      1. WorkingRachel*

        That’s interesting! I’ve been using a couple of industry-specific sites (one of which is specially for my area) plus idealist. I’ll try looking at some more local places.

    2. strawberry ice cream*

      I find that socialization after work has a lot more to do with the particular set of people in the job than the work itself. You could totally ask that about the culture when interviewing at new places.

    3. Ranon*

      Many industries that tend to lean conservative (e.g. oil & gas, construction) are in-person or hybrid even for office workers.

      Many smaller companies seem more likely to be in-person or hybrid than bigger ones.

      Universities and government jobs seem to swing strongly one way or the other largely depending on leadership and whether they had too much or too little real estate pre-pandemic

  52. Moonlight*

    Why am I suddenly seeing A LOT of comments about a resume being 1 page? I’ve always been told 2 is ok. But this year I’ve seen a lot of people talking about how only 1 page is ok unless you have 10+ years experience.

    This, to me, feels insane. I have 3 degrees, have had 4 jobs that are directly relevant to my work, and have taken at least 10 relevant courses. Once you factor in 3-ish bullet points per job (not a hard and fast number, just naming a reasonable estimate) + subtitles + contact info + size 11-12 font, this is 2 pages. I don’t have 10 years of WORK experience. I have 8 years of education + 5 years work experience so maybe the fact that this adds up to 13 years makes 2 pages ok.

    But it also seems like a lot of people still mysteriously use a 1 page resume with comparable experience and maybe I’m misunderstanding how they’re going about it. I KNOW you’re supposed to only use what’s relevant and trust me when I say I am – my unedited resume is 4 pages. I slash so much and if I cut more just for the sake of making it fit into 1 page, I’d be removing information directly relevant o a role (eg slashing that I took training in a statistics software for a research role) so I want to be clear that I am NOT looking for advice on making my resume shorter. I AM looking for an explanation on the push I’ve observed to stick to 1 page and if it’s ok to use 2 pages if you feel it is justified.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, ask 20 hiring managers about resumes and you’ll get 20 different “this the only way to write a resume.”

      Second, the 1-page resume limit isn’t new, the 2-page format is newer. I was seeing the 1-page limit back in 2008. Resume advice has trends, even though what actually works tends to be pretty boring.

      Third, as long as what you’re doing works, keep doing it.

    2. Hen in a Windstorm*

      I don’t know, confirmation bias? I think you are seeing a trend where there isn’t one.

      My resume is 2 pages, and I’ve been working since 1994. I leave off all my older jobs. My husband’s resume is also 2 pages, and he has a lot of technical stuff because he’s a chemist. He’s been working since 2003, and all of his jobs are on his resume.

    3. Samwise*

      Eh, one page is tough if you’ve been working a long time.

      I’ve been working full time professional jobs for 40+ years. I have a two page resume (the keep track of everything “resume” is 8 pages); I also have an academic cv that’s four pages. I usually write a two page cover letter.

    4. FashionablyEvil*

      I think this is kind of asking the wrong question—focus on on your work experience and accomplishments on your resume; education is not experience. I have yet to see a situation where an applicant’s “relevant coursework” section truly added anything to their application because, again, academic experience with a thing is very different than work experience.

      2. Cj*

        Yep. 8 years of education and 5 years of does not add up to 13 years of work. Nor do 3 degrees and four jobs add up to seven jobs.

        Each degree should only take one line (name of university, degree conferred, year if you don’t care of it reveals your age), so they are not equivalent to amount of space a job would take up. Plus they’d all go under one education heading, so no double spacing between them like you would have for a job.

        I’m not sure what is meant by relevant coursework. If they were taken as part of getting your degrees, you certainly shouldn’t list them. I would never list individual courses. If you took them as part of getting another degree or certificate, I might say you are working towards whatever, and they can ask if they care.

        I have 40 years experience, have had six jobs, plus a professional license, membership in a professional organization, and a couple of awards I list. Tax and accounting, practice management, electronic doumument mgt and similar software I’ve used is in a separate section so employers can easily see if I’m familiar with what they use, and doesn’t need to be repeated for each job, since some used the same software. I still only have a one page resume.

        I do have narrow margins and I think I squeezed my line spacing a little tighter than the default, and use 11 point font.

        I’m not sure how you would come up with the four page resume you say you have if you don’t cut anything. That’s an awfully lot for 4 what must have really short term jobs (since you say you have only 5 years of work experience).

    5. Girasol*

      Consider the busy manager who has a big stack of resumes to scan in order to select a short list to read over more thoroughly. However many pages you choose, you need to stand out at a glance on the first scan, and have enough info to interest the manager in an interview on the second reading, without the resume being so long that the hiring manager is annoyed by having to read so much. Page count shouldn’t matter as much as meeting the needs.

    6. Educator*

      I’ve always taken that advice to mean one physical sheet of paper when printed. I definitely use the front and the back! And that seems pretty standard for the resumes I see hiring too.

    7. anonymous resume screener*

      It depends a little on the job and industry, and a LOT on your writing & formatting skills. I’ve screened resumes for senior leaders for years and can tell at a glance which they’ll read further (and learned to peg interviewees & hirees like clock work). A two-pager with lots of white space, concise writing, and reader-friendly formatting would definitely get more interest than a one-pager with tiny font in paragraph form.

    8. Hit my head Glass Ceiling*

      I have no problem with 2 pages for experienced technical candidates since I am not going to waste time on a phone skills if I can’t see if your skills match the position. (Titles are worthless comparing level of technical roles at different organizations.) But if you have 3 pages, it can look like you are padding.

    9. Mid*

      The one page thing has been around forever. I was told about it in the early 2000s, and it likely predates that.

      The push isn’t new, but exists because hiring managers don’t want to read 7 pages of barely related information. A resume isn’t a CV/academic resume/government resume, it doesn’t have to include everything you’ve ever done. It’s supposed to highlight relevant accomplishments and skills.

      For say an admin job, I wouldn’t list “made copies, sent emails, planned meetings and events, screened phone calls, ordered supplies, cleaned office, sent mail, answered the door…” because that’s all pretty standard admin stuff that people assume comes with the title. I’d highlight the specific achievements I had like “implemented new remote working software for office during pandemic and provided frontline IT support and software training to staff” and “oversaw office renovation, managed contractors and vendors and ensured that the renovation was on time and under budget” and things like that. No one really cares if you collated reports. The one page rule helps people keep information relevant and not rambling.

      If you have 5 years of work experience and 4 relevant jobs, I would question how much you can really have on a resume that is worth listing. 3-4 bullet points highlighting the most important parts of your jobs should be more than enough.

      Coursework is rarely considered helpful to list, because a class doesn’t translate to real world experience, and there is a huge range in quality of courses. I took 3 years of ASL, that doesn’t mean I can interpret ASL. Some coursework can be listed, but I’d really consider if it’s actually helpful on your resume. You can also include coursework in your cover letter instead of your resume. If you’re applying to jobs in academia, this is different, and coursework is more commonly listed.

      Also, how much space are you giving to your degrees? And how much is going to your coursework? For the degrees, you really don’t need more than a line per degree, just listing the degree and the school. (Writing “Masters of Science in Alchemy and Applied Scrying, University of Middle Earth” should be plenty of information.)

      And how much space is going to your contact info? Mine is usually 2 lines:

      [Name] (14pt font usually, sometimes 12)
      [phone] [email] [linkedin] (10-12pt font)

      Then a space, and then my actual resume. I sometimes also list my city and state, or country, depending on the role and where it’s located.

      But, the one page thing has been explained to me as being a rule for a few different reasons over the years. I’ve gotten: 1. So no one loses the second page of your resume (not really applicable in the era of digital resumes) 2. Because hiring managers skim only the first page for 10 seconds so you want to have everything in one place (probably closer to reality than reason 1) 3. So people don’t have to waste their time looking at irrelevant information (also probably closer to reality than reason 1) 4. Because it encourages people to self-edit and think critically about their application and resume (might also have some validity, no one likes to work with the person who writes novels when a sentence or two could do) 5. As a sort of skills test to show how well you can condense relevant information down and then expand on it when asked about it later (which is fairly similar to 4.)

      I don’t think there’s really any one true reason, and plenty of people have a resume that’s longer than 1 page. It’s been a “rule” for at least 2 decades, and like most social norms, it’s in the category of “it’s a social norm because it’s a social norm” just like how it’s weird to go barefoot in most offices, or how a spittoon would be out of place in an office today. But, even if you disagree with it, ignoring the rule risks making you look out of touch with business norms. Is it fair? Probably not, like most other arbitrary social norms we have. But society is silly like that.

      1. Cj*

        It’s not a social norm, it’s a business norm, because like so many have said, the person screening the resumes only scans them, and doesn’t want to scan more than one, or two at the most, pages.

        Also, I was told in the 1070’s to only have a one page resume. Maybe it changed and changed back in the meantime, but this is nothing new.

    10. Roland*

      Are 3 degrees and 10 courses really all things that deserve space on your resume? I had courses on my resume when I was searching for summer internships and knew that it was important to show X skill to be qualified (and when my resume plenty of room). I’ve since taken all courses off, and that’s with just a single bachelor’s. Maybe they are all relevant, but that’s not the case for most people so that’s one possible reason for your confusion.

      1. Cj*

        Yeah, after you get your degree, why would you list coursework?

        I have a degree in accounting. The fact that I took principles of, intermediate and advanced accounting, cost accounting, auditing, etc. is pretty obvious.

    11. Kay*

      Mainly because it shouldn’t take more than one page to tell me if someone is worthy of calling for an interview.

      Someone with only 5 years of work experience, no matter what kind of education they have, is telling me a lot if they can’t figure out how to fit their relevant experience on one page. (and just to be clear, the “a lot” is nothing positive)

    12. Hello Sweetie*

      Why should you keep it as short as reasonably possible?
      – To show that you have good judgment about what is specifically relevant to the position
      – To show that you have the ability to communicate concisely
      – To ensure that the hiring manager can clearly see why your skills & experience are specifically relevant

      You are clearly proud of your accomplishments in schooling and professionally. And that is good. But as a hiring manager I do not need an entire line on your resume that says you took training on R in order to do something new on the llama analysis project at your second job, for example. You can just include R as a skill in a top line summary para (“Proficient in R, pandas/scikit, MATLAB”), or in the description of the llama analysis project if that is a highlight on your resume.

      I would expect a resume for what you have described to be able to fit into a single page, or slightly bleed onto a second. It is hard to imagine scope & impact of those short-tenure positions requiring significantly more real estate, regardless of how relevant the positions are to your education. That’s not because you didn’t do well in those positions; you just weren’t at these jobs long enough yet to warrant a bunch of real estate.

    13. fhqwhgads*

      This isn’t a new thing. It’s what I’ve heard for the past 20 years. Most people only have 1 page worth of resume-worthy stuff. If you have a long career, sure 2 pages isn’t inherently bad per se, but the advice is generally to err on the side of editing, making sure it’s all actually helping your candidacy, being thoughtful about what’s in there. It’s not a CV. It doesn’t need to include everything. The reasoning is: don’t include everything just for the hell of it. And if you have a shorter target in mind, it forces you to make those choices that’ll optimize the content. At least that’s my understanding of it.

    14. TX_Trucker*

      I spend maybe 10 seconds reading a resume before putting it in the yes, no, or maybe pile. A long resume is not a deal-breaker for me. But I don’t read the long ones to the end before making my decision. In my opinion, the purpose of a resume is to get you an interview … not to actually list all your qualifications, many of which may not be relevant to the job. For example, if I’m hiring a Llama groomer, I don’t necessarily care about your Alpaca grooming experience. The Alpca work may be useful. But I might put your resume in the “no” pile before I even read about your Llama experience. This is probably dependent on your industry. When I get resumes from folks with military or education experience, they are ridiculously long and written in a language that is typically incomprehensible to me. That may be normal in their industry, but works against them when trying to switch to a new field.

  53. CareerFamilyBalance*

    Hi everyone! I (female, early 30s) am an associate director in government. I like my job and find it very rewarding, and got my first promotion a little over a year ago after working there for three years. My boss is retiring in 2-3 years, and is asking if I would be interested in her position (no guarantee, but we would start training sooner rather than later). I currently work 45 hrs per week, and she currently works probably 50-55. Her children are adults and her husband is retired and does all of the ‘home stuff’, so it works for her. However, I want to have a family, and my husband is an associate in Big Law eligible for partnership consideration in 2025/2025 (albeit mid-west style big law with 1850 billing hours per year rather than the 2100 or 2400 on the East Coast). Objectively, 5-10 hrs more per week doesn’t seem like a big deal, but emotionally I just can’t imagine doing that + most of the house stuff + kids. But I also can’t imagine turning down opportunity for career advancement. Anyone else been in a similar position? Would love to hear other people’s stories.

    1. Ginger Baker*

      Can you free up some money to pay someone to take on some of the non-job load you are carrying? I suggest this because women especially are just…conditioned to think we “should” be able to just “do everything” and often don’t consider that there are problems money can solve (or at least, help a lot in solving). I work in BigLaw (not as an attorney but I am close with a number of the attorneys here and we discuss this kind of stuff as women in the workplace fairly often) and one of the major benefits to being an attorney in BigLaw is the money…so don’t be afraid to use it.
      Things that could potentially just be done with money:
      – Paying for food delivery/pre-prepped meals/Sunbasket type mostly-done dinner stuff. There’s services for kid’s lunches and breakfasts too (I have looked into a few). Grocery delivery service, especially anything with a subscription (I get a sheer ridiculous amount of stuff on Subscribe & Save for timesaving reasons).
      – Hiring childcare help (babysitters, au pair, nanny, “mother’s helper” aka a teen who needs some extra cash and doesn’t watch the kids alone but keeps them busy and generally taken care of while you do other things). Obviously this may be complicated in this covid world, but there might be some options that feel comfortable to you. One divorced partner I know shares a home with her sister, who is the de facto stay at home parent, freeing the partner up to focus on career. You might not want to invite your siblings to move in with you :-) but there might be some outside-the-box ways worth considering.
      – Laundry service.
      – Housekeeping service.
      – Home organizational helper (if it might help with getting things to a good point for better function; might not apply to you!)
      – Virtual assistant who could book appointments and handle various paperwork stuff.
      – TaskRabbit or similar for handy-man stuff, yard work, running errands.
      – My kids mostly buy clothes and stuff online now because delivery saves us a ton of time. If your kids are still young enough to be outgrowing clothes all the time, this could be very useful especially if you could have, say, a virtual assistant do the ordering.

      This is not an exhaustive list; there might be a ton of other stuff I missed. I highly recommend looking at each thing you do (regularly: free up daily time!; irregularly: the joy of schedule and book it recurring and never have to think about it again!) and ask “is there someone I can pay to handle this for me?” Mind, this is a solution that comes from a place of financial privilege *hugely*, but if you have it, I would lean into it (while keeping an eye out for equitable compensation and good practices on your part).

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        This — they say money can’t buy happiness, but it can pay people to do things that make my life easier, so I’m all in. And you’d be surprised what you can pay people to do if you look.

        Recently on “Wait, is that even a thing?” (literally everyone I have mentioned this to has said that) — I discovered a (local, woman-owned) service that comes around every two weeks and scoops the dog poo out of my backyard and disposes of it somewhere other than in my trash bin. I have two dogs, one of which is a near-100 lb (she’s only ten months old :P ) Great Dane, so I am ALL ABOUT paying someone else to take care of the mess. (For a giggle: the name of the service includes the word Scoop, and Mint apparently thinks it’s an ice cream shop and files it under “Restaurants.” Snort.) I also use a mobile grooming service for my dogs (well, the smaller one, the Dane just outgrew the truck :P ) – I started using it because one of my dogs gets carsick, but it saves SO MUCH TIME not having to either wait around or drop them off and pick them up. There’s a service in my area that does basically taxi service for dogs, I’ve never used them but my doggy daycare raves about them. (I, uh, don’t have any kids. Just the dogs. But that leans into what Ginger Baker said; think about what you can farm out, there’s a lot of options!)

        I don’t do much of my groceries on subscribe-and-save (though I do have a lot of dog supplies set up that way) but I use Shipt a lot, partly because it saves me the time of going to the store myself and partly because, honestly, my grocery bill went WAY down when I stopped going to the store and spontaneously throwing everything that looked tasty at the time in my cart :P CVS has a service for five bucks a month that gets me free delivery (like, a person bringing them by hand to my door, not just mail, though mail delivery is an option too) on my prescriptions and a coupon for $10 off any purchase per month. Even if I don’t end up using the coupon, I still save time and money on the delivery.

        1. Wish I'd thought of it first - maybe*

          Also on “Wait, is that even a thing?” – someone advertised in our local community group that for a fee they would move your trash can from the garage to the curb.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            After the third week in a row that the assigned housemate forgot to do it,
            I’d have been tempted :P

    2. Marissa*

      I would absolutely say yes to the training. If you do have children before your boss leaves, and at that point you decide you’d prefer the extra time over the career advancement, you can turn down the role then. A lot of things can happen in 3 years, personally and professionally.

    3. Samwise*

      Just because boss spends that much time at it doesn’t mean you will need to.

      But i actually think you’re “borrowing trouble”. If you have some interest in the work, I’d start the training.
      1. The training itself may reveal to you that you don’t really want the job
      2. Just because you train for it, doesn’t mean you will for sure get it.
      3. If you’re offered the job, you don’t have to take it.
      4. If you take the job, you don’t have to keep it.
      5. You have no idea what could happen in the next 2-3 years. Your boss might decide to stay. You may not get pregnant (at all, or when you hope to). Not to be a downer, but your marriage may not go as you hope. Your husband might not make partner, or might decide to quit law and become a brewmaster. You may get offered a job at a different employer. You or your husband could get sick. You might win the lottery. Heck, think back to March 2020…

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        This. Just because one person with a job title spends 50-55 weeks on the job, doesn’t mean the next person will spend that much, or should spend that much.

        1. Emily Gilmore*

          My thoughts too. And consider the generational gap. She may not be using resources or technology to manage the load as much as you may be able to. Plus, if she’s not “needed” at home, she may be filling in the time in the office. You’ll probably find that 50-55 hours@week isn’t necessary.

    5. Anon for This*

      I was in a similar situation, didn’t pursue the promotion, got the boss from hell and ended up leaving for a position that required more hours anyway. Go for the promotion, and when you are the boss look for ways to have work-life balance. A single mom who works for me goes home right on time, gets her kids to after school events, helps with homework, gets them to bed, then hauls out the laptop and puts in a couple more hours.

    6. BookMom*

      I know a fair number of couples who both have high responsibility careers and they hire help for just about everything. Nannies and lawn care are obvious ones, but also travel agents to plan fun weekend getaways, property managers who deal with getting repair bids and meeting contractors, personal shoppers for wardrobe, etc. It’s $$$ I’m sure, but the other option would be constant stress and lack of ability to focus on the careers that are frankly a big part of their identity and life purpose, and spend the free time they do have enjoying their families.

  54. Anon for this one*

    I keep bumping into this problem: what should I be doing differently?

    I have a fairly broad range of experience and skills both from previous workplaces (I have more than 2 decades in the workplace) and from individual study and research.

    Some of the experience isn’t directly related to what I am doing at company X. To use the normal analogy – let’s say they are in the llama grooming business. I have experience with llama grooming hence having this job, but also have deep experience with alpacas, crocodiles, houseplants, llama husbandry, etc.

    The company decides to go in a new direction with (e.g.) crocodile grooming. As this is new, they haven’t talked to me about crocodile grooming as it isn’t part of the role. They don’t “officially” know that I have any experience with crocodiles, it was on my resume when I applied but this doesn’t get committed to memory of course. So they go into it with no direction, or hire consultants, or make bad decisions… and I don’t get pulled into the ‘crocodile’ project due to them not knowing I had any experience in this area.

    How would you solve this?

    They send those skills matrixes round periodically but the trouble with those is they only account for knowledge and skills that are part of the company’s current landscape, not things they might attempt in the future.

    1. Executive Something or Another*

      Can you talk to the head of the crocodile grooming project and let them know you have experience and are willing to share it on this project? Or your boss if your company is hierarchical?

    2. TX_Trucker*

      I would approach the head of the crocodile project and express your interest. I would also approach your boss and say you have experience with xyz and would love an opportunity to work on those projects if the opportunity presents itself. I periodically get drivers approach me to discuss their skills unrelated to driving. Sometimes it leads to new opportunities for them. Sometimes it doesn’t. But I always hear them out.

  55. An Australian in London (currently in London)*

    Had anyone opened a company in Estonia as an e-resident? [*]

    I’ve just started one so as to contract to an EU client outside of punitive UK taxes. [**] I’m using a firm to manage the compliance; any traps or tips for young players?

    [*] They have a national ID that’s fully online, and is used for everything. It’s open to almost anyone in the world.

    [**] IR35. It’s the worst. An employee for tax purposes but not for benefits or rights.

    1. irritated Londoner*

      This type of tax avoidance is likely to be clamped down upon soon; you have already fallen into a trap by trusting this firm that is “managing your compliance”, as they are bound to know this, and are just taking your money while they can. Instead, perhaps you could just pay your taxes? Assuming that you are using public services while living in London – who do you imagine should be funding these for you?

      1. An Australian in London (currently in London)*

        Wow. A lot of assumptions there, and what seems like a lack of knowledge about this piece of UK tax law. I’d really hoped to hear about Estonian e-residence companies, but sure, let’s talk about UK IR35 tax law instead.

        IR35 was intended to catch contractors who were really “disguised employees”. Up until 2021 in the private sector, the burden for determining if a contract was inside/outside IR35 was on the contractor, and they were the one liable if HMRC disagreed.

        In 2021 the burden and liability were shifted to the end client. What was supposed to happen was that each end client would review each contract to determine its IR35 status.

        Spoiler: they didn’t. In Finance and banking every end client blanket-banned engaging workers as contractors and put them on payroll. But not as employees. As payroll contracts. Zero rights, zero benefits, but taxed as employees. Many have been paying all employee taxes and NICs while also paying the •employer• taxes and NICs. The law says I must be paid statutory holiday pay and I am: by deducting from my rate. Somehow this is legal.

        There are indeed many long term contractors who in all respects act like employees. Then you get freelancers like me genuinely in business on our own behalf: websites, marketing, multiple simultaneous clients, etc. None of my clients think I am an employe. Even my security access cards say that I’m not. We aren’t employees but we’re taxed like employees.

        My plans aren’t to avoid taxes. I still pay taxes in the UK; twice, actually, since I pay company tax on my company profits, and personal income tax on the salary I pay myself. I will also pay company tax and VAT in Estonia. “Compliance” here means compliance with Estonian tax and company law, also known as paying for bookkeeping and accounting, a fairly uncontroversial outsourcing practice.

        I’d have no problems being taxed as an employee if I was an employee with all employee rights and benefits, and I’d cheerfully pay that tax since it’s fundamental to civilisation and the social contract. We don’t tax any other type of business as an employee.

        Now, back to Estonian e-residency and running an EU company. I’d love to hear from anyone doing this.

  56. Executive Something or Another*

    I left my job as the head of a small nonprofit in early November after giving two months’ notice and spending the vast majority of that time making sure that I updated/created manuals for just about every aspect of my job. I planned to take some time off before job hunting again to recalibrate from the job and some family health issues.

    When I announced my resignation, I suggested to the board that they bring in someone temporarily to cover the administrative/operations for a few hours a week because they’re time consuming but can be done quickly and efficiently by someone who knows that they’re doing. The board decided to just have a local board member take on these responsibilities instead.

    Since I left the organization, I’ve received weekly lists questions from this board member and others about random things (where are the envelopes in the office? Who is our accountant – that they met, what is this phone number – the only office line), and I’ve answered them to the best of my ability. But I hit my limit of free and uncompensated work and wrote back politely that I will be charging a consulting fee moving forward. They didn’t take that well and sent back a rude response.

    Normally, I’d chalk it up and move on, but I was going to ask this board member to be a reference for me as we’ve worked closely together for the past several years. Is there any hope? Why do I feel so lousy keeping healthy boundaries?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Oof, sorry, that board member made a jerk move with that email :(

      You did nothing wrong.

      Honestly, given the board member’s response, I’d be wary of using them as a reference *before*. They don’t seem to understand professional norms or respect that we work for money.

      And I think you should not ask them to be a reference.

      I think you feel bad because you’re human and being attacked by someone feels bad, even when it’s unjustified. Or maybe especially when the attack is ubjustified, because then you also are trying to make sense of something nonsensical.

      1. Executive Something or Another*

        I so, so appreciate your support on this! I guess I needed a gut check that this wasn’t normal. This board member has previously given no indication that they’re going to respond like this so it was surprising and I was taken aback. I’m going to ask some other folks to be references instead of this board member since I can’t trust what they’ll say anymore.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Maybe I’m feeling bitter on everyone’s behalf today, but I’d be tempted to respond to the rude response including the rest of the board – mentioning the documented procedures etc and sweetly offering to serve as a consultant to the board at my consultant’s rates and availability.

      The bridge is burned with the board member who took on more than they were capable, but maybe the rest of the board can rethink their decision to wing it.

      1. Executive Something or Another*

        I was so tempted but I want to be the calm and collected professional on the surface (it took a lot of unsent drafts to get my snark out). I didn’t respond to their rude email but since then, they’ve outsourced their questions to the board chair who emailed me with some new questions and copied the board member. I wrote back the same thing to them, and it seems that the message has come through. Here’s hoping!

  57. Going dark for this one*

    I need a reality check: is it weird for an employer to require its employees to read self-help/pop psychology/spiritual books and then force them to participate in a lecture/discussion of said books, said books having nothing whatsoever to do with the work industry or duties of the employees?

    I think I’m working in a beehive.

    2. Rick T*

      It is a beehive for sure. How much can you just hang back, repeat the blurb from the back, and simply observe the discussions?

    4. Zweisatz*

      I’m watching the The Vow right now. Run.

      Seriously though, there should be no such cross-over between your work and your employer’s personal life. It sounds very much like a recruitment tactic where members are asked to look around their social circle and see who they can draw into the fold.
      Due to the power differential, it’s even worse (when your odd cousin approaches you it’s much easier to say no than to the person who cuts your checks or even a colleague that you want to have a good continued work relationship with).

      1. Going dark for this one*

        I haven’t seen The Vow, but I agree. Abusing the power differential is not okay. It’s just weird and inappropriate all the way around.

    6. Going dark for this one*

      Thanks, everyone I appreciate the feedback. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks its weird.

    7. MacGillicuddy*

      I had a boss who liked doing this sort of thing. I read the books on company time. When boss said I needed to read them on my own time, I said “you’re requiring us to read these so we can discuss, so they’re a work requirement, so I’ll be reading them on company time”.

      Boss countered with some nonsense about “being a professional” which I ignored. This boss had problems with boundaries, as well as not knowing the difference between “being a professional” with “answering a holy calling” (I think she actually expected people to spend every waking moment doing some sort of job-related activity. )

      1. Going dark for this one*

        I read it on company time as well, as did the co-workers I spoke with. If it’s a mandatory work requirement, they have to pay us for the time we spend on it.

  58. The Cat's Mother*

    I am job-hunting for the first time after working for 40 years; all my previous jobs were “right place, right time” sort of things. It’s hard, as you might expect!

    I’m interested in a position that is asking for a “brief biographical statement” in addition to a resume and cover letter. I think this is because the employer has a pretty specific focus and “fit” will be very important.

    How “brief” is “brief?”

    I have several official bios of various lengths, but they’re all focused on my work and are intended for use in publications. I am pretty sure that’s not what this place is looking for.

    I’ve seen suggestions for as short as 4 sentences and as long as 5 paragraphs.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Samwise*

      I would contact HR (or the hiring officer, or the recruiter) and ask.

      Otherwise I’d say one or two paragraphs.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      A biography in addition to a resume and cover letter?? Annoying and redundant.

      Anyways, I’d say a 200 character limit sounds right. Since this sounds like something they’re requiring of all applicants (bad hiring practice), I suspect they’ll narrow it down before even reading the bio.

  59. TM*

    Can you (substantially) reuse a cover letter?

    I ask because I applied for a temp, internal position about 6 months ago for, let’s say, director of llama rearing. I did not get the job but a couple days ago, I got a call from the hiring manager, encouraging me to apply for this new temp, internal position as a llama rearing trainer. She remembered me from the interview and thinks I would be a good fit.

    As I was updating my cover letter and resume, I really couldn’t find a reason to change most of the cover letter. Most of it applies to this position as well, so I just edited the parts that spoke to being a director and made sure they said trainer. Is that okay? Will they even notice?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think that sounds fine, if you think the cover letter talks to your strengths. I would suggest adding a line about having interviewed and being excited for a chance at this role becauase you learned [fill in the blank] in previous interviews.

    2. WoodswomanWrites*

      Sounds good to me. I applied for a position that was later withdrawn, revised, and reposted six months later. The recruiter invited me to reapply for the new role and I made only minor changes related to the tweaking of the position. I got the job.

    3. Samwise*

      Yes you can. I have a cover letter that’s pretty similar for most positions I apply for in my area (higher ed , academic adjacent). I rework paragraphs and freshen up examples as needed. Sometimes it’s not needed.

      I have a high application to interview invite ratio. Good resume, but excellent cover letter

  60. Goldfish*

    Can anyone point me toward any archive entries that would be relevant for someone who is trying to find work after a prolonged/hard-to-explain absence from the workforce? I have two family members who haven’t worked for a decade or more due to mental health issues and are now unsure how to job hunt with little experience and none of it recent.

    I’m sure this issue has been addressed on this blog before, but I haven’t found the right search term to find useful posts.

  61. Zweisatz*

    How is mingling supposed to work/what’s the expectation for talking to people at work functions?
    Or more concretely, what have you found works for you?

    Socially, I am very much of the find someone cool to talk to and if everybody’s happy, talk to them forever persuasion and I get the feeling that’s like the exact opposite of what you’re supposed to do at work parties. Also it doesn’t work when I just don’t have much in common with people.

    What do you do?

    1. TPS reporter*

      I try to talk to a handful of people to build relationships. If otherwise I’m not super good friends with anyone, I feel like even a quick conversation with a few people is a good way to get them to know me for any future work scenarios where we may need each other’s help.
      I am kind of awkward with small talk and especially with co workers where I feel like I can’t be my full authentic self. In that case I have a few topics geared up in my head to talk about, neutral things like the weather or an upcoming vacation. When it doubt ask them questions- like hey how is that one project going? And try to actively listen, just feed off of what they’re saying

    2. Educator*

      I have a few “exit lines” ready for when the conversation lags or when I feel like I have been talking to the same person for too long. “Well, it has just been so nice to talk to you! Good luck with [thing they mentioned earlier in the conversation].” is my go to. It makes it clear that we are done, but in a very friendly and positive way. If they don’t match that wrapping up tone in their reply, then I note my pressing need to grab an appetizer or refill my drink.

      Also, honestly, as an introvert, I scan the room for the other awkward-looking people or people by themselves. It is easier to talk to someone who is glad of the conversation partner. I also force myself to talk to all the higher ups relevant to my work at least once, ideally about something not related to work at all. A little painful, but important.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Generally, I’ve found people tend to join with their work friends and chat in groups. If it’s in a restaurant or something, it can be hard to move around much anyway.

      I don’t find it any different than chatting at lunch or break or during a free class, except that you have more time and aren’t keeping an eye on the clock.

  62. Chirpy*

    Ugh, on top of everything else, my otherwise nice coworker has figured out I’m single and is now badgering me as to why. My vague “I just haven’t found the right guy” (technically true, the full reasons are complicated and from experience few people understand, and are none of his business anyway) just gets answered by “you should get out more”.

    And I never know how to answer “get out more” because people usually mean “go to bars” which are a special hell for me so why would I want to meet someone who likes them? I just wish people would back off.

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      I’d go for a cheerful “just lucky I guess!” regardless of how you actually feel about it… maybe “I don’t know, it just seems like every guy I meet wants to pester me about personal things that are none of their business” if you’re feeling snarky :)

      1. Meep*

        I would be tempted to ask if he was offering his services, but I understand I would also be comfortable being snarky enough to turn him down if that was his actual intent. (Because insulting women for being single isn’t cute.)

        1. Chirpy*

          I’m pretty certain he’s not interested personally, he seems to be the kind of person who is just completely flabbergasted by the concept of a woman (well) over the age of 25 being single.

          1. Sadie*

            What? Why? That’s such a weird thing to be flabbergasted at. I know tons of single women of all ages.

            I dislike this guy intensely.

            1. Chirpy*

              Unfortunately, he’s by far not the first person I’ve encountered who has this weird idea. At least he hasn’t been mean about it.

        1. Cordelia*

          “OK, no more comments about me being single, thanks”. If he brings it up again, he is really not being “nice”.

          1. Chirpy*

            Yeah, it’s just literally the only issue I’ve had with him in over 4.5 years of working together.

    2. The Cat's Mother*

      “Why does my relationship status bother you so much?”

      “I only allow my mother to ask me why I’m not married.”

      “This is your business because…?”

      “If you don’t stop talking to me about my being single, I’ll be going to HR.” (if you have HR)

      1. Chirpy*

        I don’t allow my mom to ask that, either. I actually can’t contact HR except through my manager, and this is by far not the worst thing going on right now so I’d rather spend that effort on other issues. He’s not terrible about it, it just keeps coming up (he asked what I’m doing for New Year’s and apparently “sleeping in” wasn’t a good answer. I wasn’t invited to any parties and I’m okay with that because I’m really looking forward to a long weekend of mostly nothing.)

        1. The Cat's Mother*

          Yeah, my mother knew better than to ask, since it was apparent by the time I was a teenager that I simply wasn’t interested in any of that.

          I really don’t like NYE parties and the idea that you have to be kissing someone at midnight, so I hear you on that. the best NYE party I ever went to, we sat around and played board games all night and the only reason we knew it was midnight was the people in the next apartment started making noise.

        2. Samwise*

          “I don’t even talk to my mom about this. Why do you keep asking? It’s really inappropriate and you need to stop.”

          If he keeps doing it, he’s not as nice as you say.

          If he keeps doing it and you don’t want to escalate it, then I would say (every time), “I already told you this is inappropriate and this conversation is now over.” Then walk away. Every time.

          Also, just because someone asks, doesn’t mean you have to answer.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Not something I care to discuss at work, thanks!

      Nope, still not something I plan to discuss with you, thanks!

      My personal arrangements and activities aren’t up for debate, thanks!

      1. Chirpy*

        “I’m fine with it/I’d rather be single than with the wrong guy” are things I’ve tried with previous people, but just seems to offend this kind of people.

      2. The Cat's Mother*

        Yes, all of this.

        Just shut it down.

        I know it’s hard because you’ve engaged on the topic in the past, but you can say, “I’ve decided to keep my work and my personal life separate.”

    4. Polopoly*

      Why am I single ? Because if I were doubled, it would tear a hole in the fabric of spacetime and threaten the universe. Obviously !!! You dont go around duplicating people willy nilly !

    5. Manders*

      I am single and a while back I was working at a different job site than I normally do. I came in early, and when the admin assistant saw me she came RUNNING down the hall after me. I thought it was some sort of emergency, but no, she just wanted to to know what it was like to be single – she wanted to hear all the details. I think she thought I was living some sort of Sex and the City lifestyle, and I had to gently let her know that, nope, pretty much it’s just me and my cat. She ended up filing for divorce a couple of months later, so I think she was wanting to find out about all the hot dudes she was going to end up dating, LOL.

      1. Chirpy*

        Haha. Yeah, I’ve definitely horrified a few married people with the apparently shocking idea that being single is a lot more “choosing a rug for the apartment without consulting anyone else” than, I don’t know, wild hot sex or something.

    6. Emma2*

      Your coworker is being pretty rude and invasive (I realise you say he is nice, but this is not nice behaviour).
      I think “get out more” warrants a silent puzzled look in response – with a pause long enough to make it slightly uncomfortable before switching topics, or a “wow” also followed by switching topic (or in either case indicating you need to get back to something work related).
      On the general issue of repeatedly bringing this up, I think you should just call him out on it – “you keep bringing this up and we have had this conversation multiple times, I’d like to just move on and stop having this conversation” – or “you keep bringing this up and we have had this conversation multiple times – I am not sure why it bothers you so much, but could we just stop having this conversation”. He’s likely to respond that he is trying to be helpful (how?); I would just respond with something like “nonetheless, let’s just drop it going forward”.
      If he does it again, I think you can go with “I’ve asked you already to stop with the constant badgering about my relationship status, I am not sure why you keep coming back to this, but could you just stop?”
      I think something along the lines of “stop prying into my personal life” is also valid, but depending on how it is phrased, in this situation, it may send him down the track of deciding there are interesting reasons you are single, and he sounds sufficiently intrusive already that I would probably err on the side of avoiding suggesting that there was anything more to the story than what he has already heard.

      1. Chirpy*

        Normally that’s what I’d do (and if it were one of my more annoying coworkers I’d definitely chew him out) but I’ve worked with him for years and have never even been mildly annoyed at him before, this is really the first issue I’ve had with him. There’s also a bit of a language barrier sometimes (his English is sometimes awkward and I’m very rusty at his native language.)

        It’s mainly that he’s going down the usual path of people who can’t understand why single people exist, and if he says something a third time it’s probably going to be “why is a nice girl like you single” to which there’s no satisfactory answer and also deserves an answer that usually offends the other person. And I don’t need another coworker deciding they don’t like me for silly reasons, I have enough of those already.

        1. Hexagon*

          Yes, he’s nice and you don’t want to make him feel bad or strain the working relationship. As a very passive person myself, I get that.

          His pushiness on this topic is making *you* feel bad and straining the relationship though. It’s time to either push back a little or just accept that he’s weird about this. Those are your only options. He’s not going to read your mind and stop – you’ve got to tell him to stop.

          You say he’s a nice guy. If that’s the case, tell him outright that you do not want to discuss the topic at all, ever, and he should back off.

    7. RagingADHD*

      “Dude, this seems to bother you a lot more than it bothers me. Can we give it a rest, please? You’re starting to weird me out. And I’ve always thought you were a nice person, so it’s super disappointing if you going to keep making this weird.”

    8. Irish Teacher.*

      I think I’d say something like “not looking right now” or “I’m actually happy with my current situation” or “sure I’ve a great life. Why would I want to go changing anything?” Something that indicates I don’t actually want to change the situation. It is a weird question.

    9. Myrin*

      As a happily single asexual person, I usually say very cheerily “I’m not interested in a relationship!” or “I’m really happy being by myself!”, depending on how the topic came up (I can honestly say that I don’t think I’ve ever been asked, let alone pestered, the way you and many others seem to be. I’m chalking it up to my “aura” which apparently projects, especially to younger people, that I’m a person who’s just naturally alone, like the witch at the cottage at the end of the street. That might influence the way I answer, of course – it generally only comes up regarding other relationship talk happening around me, so I’m usually in a different conversational situation than if someone directly (and rudely!) questioned me about it).

      You say in another comment that answers in that direction might “offend” people but I honestly don’t see what could possibly be construed as “offensive” here since it has literally nothing to do with them.

      But also, since you say he’s a generally nice person and you’ve never had any problems with him, I’d try having a more big-picture talk with him, either in the puzzled “You keep bringing this up and I honestly don’t know what you want to hear from me – care to enlighen me?” or in the cheery “I’m not going to get into a relationship so you better stop asking!” or in the earnest “I know you mean well but getting this question all the time is really grating/draining/exhausting. Can you please give it a rest?” direction, depending on the situation and especially your specific relationship with him.

  63. Polopoly*

    Im wondering how to handle this situation. My department was recently reorganized into a completely different branch of the company – one with which my department supposedly has a contentious relationship. (most of it predates me and rumor says my grandboss had been fighting it but they ended up twisting her arm to make it happen). For the time being the stucture of our dept is unchanged – but who knows how long that will last.

    My role in our department is fairly technical (unlike most of my teammates), which is fine by me. When we went through this reorg, I noted that there were other groups in this new section that essentially already do what I do. My boss and grandboss have already sat me down once and asked me what i would like to do moving forward.

    Truth is, i dont know. After a year and a half, ive finally started to get traction – making contacts within and outside the group… seeing what needs to be done, and how to do it. My educational background could work in any of the existing groups, but they all are very narrowly focused and none of them align well with my strongest skills. What if the contentious relationship my current dept has (which I’ve been occasionally dragged into) taints my interactions with my new boss or coworkers ?

    Any advice ? Tips on what to look for or ask… or avoid ?

    1. Educator*

      I think the unspoken question here is: how can you be of service to your organization if parts of your role are made redundant by this reorganization and the people who already do what you do? So I would step back and look at the current big-picture goals of the group as a whole. Then, think about how your strongest skills can plug into that. If you are not sure about those big picture things, ask! People in leadership positions generally like talking about their vision.

      For example, I was on a team that restructured because we were growing our client base. I thought about that goal, and realized that I had some relevant technical experience that could be useful. I pitched managing some of those technical pieces to my boss, and he was thrilled (and eventually promoted me) because what I brought to the team was in line with what the team needed.

      So reframe–they are asking you what you would like to do. What they really want to know is what you can do for them.

      1. Polopoly*

        Well the problem is that i have a Swiss army knife of lots of random and useful skills… it’s just that i don’t have years of experience in them the same way folks who use them full time as part of their role. And its hard to market myself into a project when there are whole teams dedicated to each specialty. The advantage (and maybe it isnt) is most people dont have all these skills combined… but im not sure how I can leverage that…

  64. Avery*

    I’m curious about professional conferences, since I know they’re a thing in the working world, often a Big Thing even, but I’ve never attended one. How common are they, really? Should I be seeking them out on my own? How different is going to a conference versus being part of a professional organization that meets from time to time? How would I even find a professional conference for my line of work besides hearing about it at work or Googling “x profession conference”?
    (I’m a paralegal, but also curious in general.)

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I am not in the same line of work, but I’ve found that the regional/local professional organization events are more valuable for networking and exchanging information, and big national conferences are more valuable for overall education about advances in the field, cutting edge programs, etc. Typically in my line of work, there is no need to go to the big national conference more than every 3-5 years unless you are a consultant with a marketing booth. It’s good to go to as many local events as your time allows.

  65. My dog is my coworker*

    I feel like this comes up a lot but I’m concerned I’ll look like a job hopper if I leave my current job too soon. As some background, I was in my first post-grad job for about four years then I was in my next job for two years before I was laid off due to Covid. I was terrified about being unemployed during a pandemic so I accepted the first job I could find- a temporary one year contract position in my field. It ended up being a great fit but, alas, there were no permanent positions available when my contract was up. In some ways, I was fortunate to find my current job right after my 1 year contract was up, but unfortunately this job has been a complete nightmare. It’s the most disorganized place I’ve ever worked. We’ll make a big decision one day and two weeks later that decision will be reversed. Turn over is also so high that we’re constantly re-doing the same work over and over because we’ll forget that someone already did it. My mental health is starting to suffer but I’m also worried that I’ll ruin my resume if I leave too soon.
    TLDR-My work history has been 4 years, 2 years 1 year, 1.5 years. Is it too soon to leave my toxic job or will employers understand as long as I stay in my next job for a while?

    1. Person from the resume*

      They will understand. Lots of folks lost job during COVID. And your 1 year contract position can be notated as a 1 year contract on your resume and on apps. It is fine to start looking for a better job.

    2. Paris Geller*

      I think you’re fine. You’re really one had one stint shorter than 2 years (the 1.5 year job) because the 1-year contract was always supposed to be 1 year. I had a lot of jobs like that between college and grad school, and I would always put something like:

      Llama Grooming Specialist (1-year contract)
      Llama Grooming Assistant (3-month temporary position) on my resume so employers would know those were always meant to be short-term jobs.

    3. Cordelia*

      I think you’re fine. You’ve got perfectly valid reasons for all the changes, and employers will understand, especially in covid times. 1.5 yrs in your current role is plenty of time to know that it is not right for you. Don’t let your mental health suffer for it. Good luck!

    4. Executive Something or Another*

      No, these times are perfectly acceptable. Just explain in your cover letter and resume that a job was a one year contract, which shows that you didn’t leave because of anything other than the contract ending. Just make sure you have something short and sweet to share about why you’re currently looking, like “I’m looking to expand my experience in showcasing teapots, which I don’t have much of an opportunity to do at my current position.” Not a lie but not badmouthing the current job either. Good luck!

    5. A Girl Named Fred*

      I think you’ll be fine! The 1-year contract doesn’t really count as a short stay since it was planned to be one year from the start. If it helps, I recently got hired for a new role to get out of my own toxic situation, and my resume had stays of 2 years, 2 years, a little less than 2 years, and ten months. (I do intend to stay at this new role for a long time though!) Be prepared to talk calmly and confidently about the reasons you left/are leaving in case they ask, but it shouldn’t be a big deal. Good luck!

  66. AnxiousNewStarter*

    I’m due to start my new remote job on Tuesday. I’ve been sent my laptop etc – but haven’t been sent any schedule information!

    I’m guessing it’s just been a bit hectic over Christmas but I was hired back in October and the start date agreed then! I’m a bit of an anxious person (I like to know a plan) and I feel a bit stressed about it all.

    I sent a follow up email after confirming I’d received all the equipment but it was quite late this afternoon. I’ve left a really good job for this role so I’m desperate for it to work out!

    Should I just go with the flow on Tuesday and call if I don’t hear anything by 10 am?

    1. Glazed Donut*

      I’d definitely call a little earlier than 10am, depending on your office’s start hours.
      There’s a chance the schedule was sent to your work email (instead of personal) and once you log in, everything will be waiting there for you. It’s good news that you have your laptop already–in my world that’s the biggest holdup.

    2. Cordelia*

      that would stress me out too – but they are definitely expecting you, they’ve sent you the laptop. It’ll be because it’s the holiday period, I’m sure. I think I would send an email at 9 (or whenever you would guess at the working day starting) on Tues, saying “hi, I’m here, excited to be starting today – I don’t have any information about the schedule for today though, so I’ll wait to hear from you.” Good luck!

  67. Toasty*

    What is the etiquette on thanking a mentor who helped you reach a career goal? I was finally offered the promotion I’ve been working toward and I want to do express my gratitude to my former colleague who gave me advice during the process. Would a gift card to a nice restaurant be appropriate?

    2. WoodswomanWrites*

      I think it depends on your relationship with your mentor. If it’s formal and purely a business relationship, a card is appropriate. If it’s more that the person has become a friend as well as a mentor, I would take them out for a meal myself so that we got together for me to thank them in person. I don’t see a gift card being appropriate.

    3. RagingADHD*

      A nice letter is plenty, but if you want to give a gift, I’d keep it relatively formal, like a flower arrangement, a fruit basket, or a bottle of wine.

  68. AcademiaNut*

    And it sounds like some of the things that make them cheaper and make them more convenient are the things that are causing melt downs down now, so you aren’t going to get the same combination without the risk.

    Fly Southwest point to point with a cheap ticket, knowing that if there’s a round of bad weather you’ll be stuck somewhere, or pay significantly more to fly through a random city, knowing that you’ll be able to contact customer service and get rebooked. People will take the cheap option.

    1. Samwise*

      I fly southwest coast to coast, never non stop alas. The airports I go through are quite large and the few times I’ve had a connecting flight cancelled, they were able to book me later that day or get me on another airline. I guess it depends on what the connecting points are.

      This week of course it didn’t matter. But I’ve been flying southwest for decades and personally see this as a one-off. (I had a kid to get out of Chicago March 2020. Flight cancelled when Covid shut down the Midway control tower…they were super helpful, got him on a united flight the next day at ohare, which got cancelled after he got there, so they booked him back on southwest and were extremely helpful with reapplying funds from the first flight. Always great service.)

  69. Emmy*

    I’m struggling with the inability/unwillingness of a manager to do their job.
    I’m in the federal government, in a law-adjacent field. Our work relies on records and files. In my current role I’m often a problem solver for customer applications that have gotten lost, delayed or otherwise stuck in the system. This manager makes my job more difficult.
    I have cultivated a friendly relationship with him, but still struggle to get him to complete needed tasks. It may take weeks to get simple things done, only after multiple follow ups and clarifications.
    He is senior to me, but the only one in charge of archive management functions. If I need a file separated or an electronic issue corrected, I have no choice but to go through him. And I can’t resolve these issues without him.
    He is notorious for doing this, and the issue has been brought to his supervisor several times with no action taken over the years.
    For this and other reasons, I am trying to transfer, but in the meantime, how do I handle this? How do I make someone who outranks me do their job, since my work performance depends on it? I am documenting his most egregious lapses in cases I handle in a personal file, in case I am ever blamed for his mistakes–any other suggestions?

    1. Science KK*

      Could you view it as wow I’m glad I’m not him/that clueless/that…. whatever? I’d also consider pointing to him or maybe even providing his info if anyone comes to you with that arise, so then he has to deal with instead of you.

      1. Emmy*

        Thank you, that is a good way to reframe it! I will keep trying to make sure I don’t jump in to save him from
        his responsibilities/consequences.

    2. Hello Sweetie*

      I have been federal-adjacent for my whole career, adn so I know you probably don’t have what amounts to an automated ticketing system that will track what you have escalated to him and automatically track aging.

      But, could you start doing weekly statusing to him where you report the list of open issues you are working, in a format like:

      Name, open date, description, current status

      Blergmeyer archive search, 11/1, needs the Quantum Leap certification, with Joe as of 11/15
      Smith lollipop guild, 11/1, needs original guild reocrds, with Joe as of 11/2
      Candyland annulment, 10/12, needed birth certificate, forwarded from Joe this week and now closed.
      etc

      The trick is to do this for all your open stuff, so it’s not a “weekly accounting of how Joe is not doing his job” but a “weekly tracker of cases I am working to help me be organized and manage follow-up”.

      You won’t make him do his job, but what you will do is make your documentation routine so that if you ever get blamed for anything you just have this running documentation and it’s not a hit list on Joe and you aren’t documenting “his performance” – you are documenting your work.

      1. Emmy*

        That is such a good idea, thank you. I had been struggling to find a way to document what is happening without just making a list of criticisms of someone who outranks me. This will help a lot and I’m going to start it loin Tuesday!

  70. C2H Wannabe*

    Hi all – first time commenting.

    I’m a contractor who was hired in summer 2021 for a particular Project. This was not an explicitly contract-to-hire position when I signed on, but honestly, I hadn’t been employed full-time for more than a decade at that point so I was hungry for anything that would provide an actual income.

    In May of this year, I spoke to my manager, Bob, about coming on as a full hire, and he was enthusiastic about bringing me on full-time (my contract is for up to 40 hours a week, but I get no PTO or benefits). He spoke to his higher-ups, and they started the process of bringing me on.

    Because of this, I’ve been putting off (since May) the process of finding a new primary care doctor, therapist, and endocrinologist, because I’ve been afraid of finding new care and immediately being told I’ll have to switch because I’ll be on my employer’s insurance and my new care isn’t covered. (I have long-term health issues, but those are covered separately by the government.)

    Then the company was acquired, and things were put on pause by the parent company; then there was a hiring freeze; then there was a restructuring and Bob was no longer my manager. Since the restructuring I’ve been in regular contact with Tom, the VP in charge of my department, and he’s been my ally in moving the hiring process forward with the parent company. But I spoke to him last week, and he said there’d been another hiring freeze, and it should expire at the end of the year, at which point he’d ask for a firm answer on how the parent company was proceeding.

    I’m concerned that the company is going to string me along again – after all, they’re getting me for 40 hours a week at less per hour than I’d be making as a full hire and without benefits, it’s a GREAT deal for them – and if Tom comes back and says anything other than “they’re preparing an offer”, I’m inclined to say “okay, I need to start looking for other employment, then”. But I’m not sure that’s the best approach – especially since, as I mentioned at the beginning, this is my first non-freelance job in more than ten years. What’s the best way for me to come at this?

    Thanks for reading!

    1. Pam Adams*

      Don’t say anything- just start looking. If they come through, great. If not, you’ve kickstarted your job search.

    2. Mercenary*

      I personally wouldn’t put off medical care any further. I know it’s a lot of effort (as a former chronic pain sufferer myself). But you have to be doing something as you go forward, may as well be taking care of yourself medically. And as you point out, you’ve been putting it off since May because everything indicates a change is just around the corner and then it ends up being repeatedly extended for various reasons.

      1. Science KK*

        I agree. Even if you say no benefits no me they might wish you luck and kick you to the curb. A job will never love you back, care for your health above all else.

  71. Science KK*

    Don’t need advice really, more of a what’s your take/place your bets.

    We have an older (mid 30s) student interning in our lab. He was nice enough at first, and he had previous research experience so we were like great he’ll get up to speed fast, be more independent. Oh boy were we wrong.

    Long story short, he will say he knows how to do something that there’s no chance he knows how to do (think we do llama taming and he previously did cat herding, there’s no real overlap), talks over people in meetings and during presentations, makes condescending comments, and this doozy: yelling at our lab manager and one of our PIs (bosses) in a hallway about how this lab is disorganized, everyone ignores him, he can’t understand how they can run a lab like this and as soon as the semester is over he’s leaving.

    He doesn’t have to wait till the end of the semester to switch labs, with this internship you can change once you find another lab that can take you. My theory is he wanted them to go oh wait don’t leave, but they said well you have to do what’s best for you. I think after Christmas he’s going to act like that nothing and go back to his…..ways.

    Any other theories/thoughts?

    1. Rick T*

      You said you can’t trust him to honestly report his abilities. I’d think trust in a lab environment was a critical requirement for a lot of reasons. He is also combative and condescending towards a PI?

      Why are you planning on allowing him back at all after your winter break? Bounce him back to his degree program with an unsatisfactory rating.

  72. Mindy*

    I got some pink glitter glasses. I don’t care how ridiculous they are, I love them. Kind of conflicts with one of my goals of being taken seriously at work though.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      Run with it. I found out I can have lenses put in frames with online opticians and am so excited because I can finally get the funky frames I bought randomly online a few years ago finally made into prescription glasses. While mine are not pink glitter glasses (which sounds AWESOME btw), I’m happy to wear my new funky frames and will be taken seriously at work because I’m damned good at my job. Whimsical accessories are just the cherry on the sundae.

  73. Can't Sit Still*

    I asked last fall how to get rid of the bad smell in the refrigerator in my newly purchased condo. I received lots of good advice and each bit helped. I finally got the refrigerator gasket replaced this week and that did it! As it turns out, the old gasket had been failing, and all of a sudden food is colder and the fridge isn’t working so hard.

    Now I know to check my refrigerator and freezer gaskets annually, something which had literally never occurred to me before. Thank you so much to the commentariat!

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