open thread – September 29-30, 2017

by Alison Green on September 29, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Regretting my new job part 2*

    I wrote in last week (https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/open-thread-september-22-23-2017.html#comment-1652489) about regretting my new job that I’d only been at for six weeks. Since then, I’ve actually been offered a new position elsewhere with more flexibility (though with about the same number of hours overall, which is fine) and I will more than likely be putting in my notice today.

    When y’all have left jobs in a short amount of time (this is the end of my seventh week), how have you phrased your notice? My plan is to go in to my boss explaining that I’m unhappy, that I’ve given the job a good faith effort and I don’t feel that it’s for me, and that I wanted to be upfront about that sooner rather than later. I will give her a chance to address the concerns that I have but I don’t think she will because if she wasn’t willing to before I started then I doubt she will now. (She actually just told me like an hour ago that my few-days-a-week walks to get coffee—25 minutes tops—had to stop. So I’m not hopeful for anything else.) And they won’t change the whole corporate clock in and out policy just for me, certainly.

    I am just dreading the guilt trip I’m gonna get because when I was offered this job they said they knew this position wasn’t exactly what I wanted and that they didn’t want me to just take this job for the sake of taking a job and then leave in a few months. And that’s exactly what I’m doing. I honestly underestimated how miserable I would be in a job I’m not passionate about with hours that I hate. My mistake, but I do feel like I’m kind of screwing them over (even though honestly I feel like they screwed me over) so it’s hard for me to not feel guilty. How would you all handle this conversation?

    1. Janelle*

      25 mins to get a cup of coffee seems excessive. Some places do have that flexibility but this one doesn’t so really it isn’t something you should be doing. I’d be wondering where one of my employees was for 25 mins and not happy about it myself.

      1. AwkwardKaterpillar*

        I agree. I can understand chafing under this if you were used to being salaried and not having your time tracked, but being gone for 25 minutes on a coffee run seems excessive.

        It seems like it just might be more of a rigid schedule than you like. They should have been more upfront about the hours during the interview process, but from what you’ve said I am not sure screwing you over is their intent.

        1. Janelle*

          I should note also that I am always up front about hours with my employees but I’d never think I’d have to mention that leaving the office for half an hour three days a week for coffee isn’t ok. I can’t imagine someone really even thinking it’s ok. Especially after 6 weeks. You have yet to even prove yourself and you are giving yourself an hour and a half of time off a week? Maybe once you are established and are a rock star employee. It comes off as fairly entitled to me. You can find other jobs but I wouldn’t be expecting this to be ok in most.

          1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

            I do this and it’s really not a big deal. I’m salaried and most days I eat lunch at my desk, but a few days a week I’ll walk to starbucks for a stretch and a break in the afternoon. Considering I also frequently stay late or work long travelling days, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. I get my work done, I’m responsive, and my boss doesn’t mind. I can see that it wouldn’t be okay in lots of jobs, but in lots of professional workplaces this is no big deal.

            1. Health Insurance Nerd*

              I agree with both this and Janelle’s comment above yours. As a manager I have zero issues with my people going to grab coffee, but these are people whose work habits are well established, and they’ve been on my team for quite some time with a proven track record of accountability and productivity. If a person who was only 6 weeks into employment on my team, I would balk at their taking these same liberties.

            2. Janelle*

              Now this I agreee. Since I used to eat at my desk and work through lunch I’d sometimes do similar. I also have when I know I have a super long day. 6 weeks into a new job? Not cool.

            3. Gaia*

              I guess I see this differently than what was being put out there. As a manager, I would see that as your de facto lunch. No big deal. But if you’re stepping away from work for lunch AND a 30 minute coffee break in the afternoon? Eh, I’m not going to love it. If you stay late, are super flexible with your hours and generally a high performer I’m probably not going to make a big deal out of it but if any of those boxes are not checked I am going to say it needs to stop.

            4. bopper*

              You are probably also a veteran employee with known work output/and ethics.
              The OP may be fantastic, but as a new employee I would expect more normal hours at first until they prove themselves.

            5. bopper*

              You are probably also a veteran employee with known work output/and ethics.
              The OP may be fantastic, but for a new employee I would expect more normal hours at first until they prove themselves.

          2. Temperance*

            I’m exempt and do this regularly. Sometimes I even just go for a walk or run a quick errand. It energizes me to do my job.

          3. RG*

            I do this, BUT I also regularly am on calls late at night, early in the morning, or on the weekends, and am otherwise essentially on call. When I was a consultant and billing time, this would have been deeply inappropriate (though a 25 minute lunch break would have been ok on a non-crazy day).

          4. AshK434*

            Really? I’m surprised by all of the backlash about this! I think it’s totally normal to take coffee-breaks throughout the day (or whatever your vice is). I do it quit often myself. Granted my trips are usually 10 minutes but still! I would feel really stifled in a job if I didn’t have the freedom to to leave my desk to take short breaks a few times a week. Maybe I’ve just been lucky so far and haven’t had overly rigid work environments?

            1. Optimistic Prime*

              It is normal to take a coffee break, but 1) not an extra 25 minutes 3-4 days a week and 2) when you’re only six weeks into a new job, you have less flexibility until you prove yourself.

              Now of course I am assuming that she’s taking this on top of an hour lunch every day. If this is just her break and she eats lunch at her desk every day and works through it…then her job is being a little crazy.

              1. The Other Dawn*

                “It is normal to take a coffee break, but 1) not an extra 25 minutes 3-4 days a week and 2) when you’re only six weeks into a new job, you have less flexibility until you prove yourself.”

                Yes, I feel like this is what is making people say, “Um, no. That’s excessive.” And I agree. If you’ve been there much longer, have proven yourself, and your work is getting done, then no big deal.

            2. Dust Bunny*

              I do coffee breaks, but not 25-minute coffee breaks. I go get the coffee and then bring it back to my desk, so it’s only a few minutes, and I’m nearby so if my boss is looking for me, I’m either easy to find or will be back in two minutes, anyway. And I’ve been here 13 years so if my lunch hour runs a bit over or whatever, I have 13 years of good reviews behind me (plus, I make up the time. I’m hourly, but with a schedule that has a little wiggle room as long as I’m on hand mostly within our open hours.)

            3. Green T*

              I’m hourly and my company gives me two 15 minute breaks a day. So using 2 breaks back-to-back to get coffee sounds reasonable to me.

              1. Janelle*

                Many won’t allow this just due to lack of coverage for too long but I’ve done it before. That being said I give the boss a heads up. “I’m dying for a frap, I’m gonna take a longer break to get one instead of two breaks”. This because if I was needed suddenly it doesn’t look good to be mia for half an hour.

              2. Someone else*

                Depending on your state, the whole “2 15 minute breaks” thing for a non-exempt employee would specifically not allow those breaks to be taken back to back. The point is there is supposed to be 2 of them.

            4. AnonAcademic*

              I work in academic research and not being allowed to make decisions about my own time would be a deal breaker for me so it’s interesting to see how rigid office environments can be. For me schedule flexibility almost offsets being underpaid :). For every 25 minute coffee break I take, there’s a time I’ve woken up in the middle of the night with a break through idea, or otherwise found myself “working” outside 9-5 hours. Sometimes the walk to coffee is when the ideas come –
              so is that still considered a “break?” I realize there are “ass in seat” jobs requiring coverage but it sounds like in the OPs last job she was able to do the job well with a flexible schedule, so this sounds to me like a mismatch of culture fit.

              1. Gaia*

                But I think this is different than what is being talked about. People who are established in their work habits, generally show flexibility in their hours, etc do not tend to get backlash on this (when specific hours for coverage is not an issue). People who are 6 weeks into a job tend to get some side eye because so little is known about them at that point.

              2. Elizabeth H.*

                Same, where I work as long as you seemed to be getting your work done and were available and responsible seeming when you were at your desk, and if you weren’t working fewer hours in total than you were supposed to, it wouldn’t be remarkable to go get coffee during the work day. I think there’s also a difference between leaving the office and going to the office kitchen where you can kibitz with coworkers or whatever. That can “read” as being present and on duty but can eat more minutes in total, but it’s just optics.

      2. Susanne*

        “What has made you think that 25 minutes is reasonable for a coffee break? In my work experience, it’s more like 5 – 10 … enough to walk to a coffee stand or cafeteria or break-room and get the coffee, and maybe chit chat a minute or two with coworkers. I have to agree with your management. That’s a looooong coffee break. The only exception I can think of is if you and a coworker are walking to a coffee shop, but discussing business along the way, stopping to get the coffee and then coming right back.

        1. atgo*

          For a position that is supposedly salaried, I think this is an unreasonable ask. There are not performance concerns, the job is a required overtime position, I don’t see the issue here with taking coffee breaks as long as the performance and time requirements of the job are satisfied.

            1. Janelle*

              I own my company therefore have all the flexibility in the World and even I wouldn’t be taking a 25 min coffee break.

              1. BenAdminGeek*

                “all the flexibility in the World” – my dad used to joke that the best part of owning your own business was that you could work whatever 90 hours a week you wanted :)

          2. New hiring manager*

            And it sounds like this position isn’t salaried – saying “here’s your salary” (as in annual total pay) isn’t the same thing as saying, “you’re salaried/exempt.” This position sounds like it’s hourly – and this person is leaving for (what would be in my industry) an unreasonably long time for an hourly employee.

            While I think a set amount of hours, clocking in/out, not being allowed to leave for long periods of time, and a set schedule are totally reasonable/normal, it’s fine to say that those things don’t work for you, and be more picky when job-choosing in the future.

            1. designbot*

              Even for a salaried/exempt position, that could be an issue. My company has a flexible schedule, but has ‘core hours’ where you’re expected to be present, because design is a team sport and your coworkers have to be able to ask you questions or do an impromptu review without having to hunt you down.

              1. Natasha*

                We have the same core hours situation, but it is very acceptable here to step out for a long break- my boss has been getting coffee every afternoon for over a decade. I did wait a year before I started leaving work for little breaks like this, but nobody looks side-eyed at a new person who takes an afternoon break.

    3. Say what, now?*

      Agreed, I don’t think you’ll get as bad of a guilt trip as you think. If they’re unhappy about your coffee breaks (although, I’d be unhappy too to be honest. We have SLA’s every 2 hours so I couldn’t have someone going over their 15 by that much) they’re probably not feeling that you’re a culture fit on their side either. I think your manager will likely say something along the lines of “I get that it’s not a good fit. I’m happy we tried it, but this will be better on both sides.”

      If she does go the “you’re screwing us and we asked you not to take this job just to take a job” route, you could point that out yourself with something along the lines of “I feel bad about leaving after a short amount of time, but I’ve gotten the sense that I’m not fitting your office culture expectations. I think there’s a better fit for you out there.” Framing it as, I’m taking something off your plate (having to coach expectations) and making it about finding a better solution for her is likely to earn you good will.

      2. JanetM*

        What is “SLA” in this context, please? I know it as “Service Level Agreement,” but I’m not sure that makes sense in your sentence.

        1. Oceans*

          In my industry, we use SLAs to describe deadlines. Two hours away, two months away, two years away…doesn’t matter. No deadlines, only SLAs.

    4. Samiratou*

      I would be honest about the bait-and-switch on hours and you weren’t expecting to have to work OT to make the offered salary and those hours just aren’t sustainable for you long-term and you’re having a harder time than you expected with certain duties like cold-calling etc.

      Or just give the “it wasn’t the right fit” and move on. You don’t really owe her a full explanation.

    5. Beth Anne*

      I think it’s weird if they didn’t think you were a good fit why they even offered you the job. My guess is they didn’t get a lot of applications and needed to fill the position.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Some times doing what we have to do does not come without a bit of guilt.

      My suggestion is to go into it with her. She says, “Well. I knew all along that you would not stay.”
      Then you say something like, “Yep, you were right and I am very sorry.”

      It costs you nothing to agree with her. BUT if you stand and disagree with her THAT could cost you a lot. We can feel pangs of guilt and still be classy and still take the high road. You might be surprised to find that you feel better about it all when it is over.

      See, at this point all she is going to hear is “I am sorry”. She won’t be able to hear too much else that you say. And honestly, you probably will not feel motivated to stay by anything she has to say. So you are both on equal footing there. Let her vent, knowing the whole time that you win this one because you are leaving, it’s over. Silently remind yourself that when a boss loses an employee that is not a win for them. In reality, her win is actually her loss and she set that one up herself.

      I hope your new place is great.

      2. Lissa*

        I agree with this. If she is going to take it badly, it’s unlikely there’s anything that you can say that will convince her to be OK with it, and I get that it’s really not fun to have somebody else not think well of you, especially when you do have reasons. But she probably won’t hear them and think “oh, OP is right I will now change my opinion” because she’s likely to feel inconvenienced.

        Just apologize and live with it, reminding yourself you’ll be at a new job soon, I think. Convincing somebody else they’re in the wrong in a case like this has never worked out for me even whein I am 100% sure I am right!

    7. Future Analyst*

      I totally get the feeling of screwing them over, but reframe it to yourself: you’re not exactly doing them a favor by staying in the job if you’re so miserable there. Most of us don’t do a great job in a role where we just don’t feel a good fit. And I just read your post from last week– I’ve done the move from a “you’re an adult so manage your own time” to “we’re watching every single thing you do and you have to track everything down to the minute,” and it SUCKS. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you for chafing at that. (Though I will agree that a 25 min coffee break is excessive, unless it counts as your lunch.) Give your notice, apologize pre-emptively, and wish them the best. If they do attempt a guilt trip, apologize again, then leave the conversation. There’s nothing to be gained from trying to convince them that they shouldn’t be frustrated.

    8. Triplestep*

      “My plan is to go in to my boss explaining that I’m unhappy, that I’ve given the job a good faith effort and I don’t feel that it’s for me, and that I wanted to be upfront about that sooner rather than later.”

      I would not say “I am not happy” or “It’s not for me”. I would save all the “me” talk for taking accountability. “I should have seen this was not going to be a good fit”. “I realize that time has been spent training me an I’m leaving you in a bad position” . “I am sorry”.

      Steer clear of “You” talk as well, since most of it will come off as finger-pointing.

    9. RVA Cat*

      It’s probably too late for the OP, but wouldn’t the fact of the new offer be all that’s necessary? Especially considering they acknowledged it may not be a good fit.

    10. Anion*

      Personally, I’d focus more on the fact that you’ve been offered a job that’s an amazing opportunity, and you couldn’t pass it up, rather than explaining the things you dislike about *this* job. That makes it less “I know I said I wasn’t taking this job just to have a job, but I was,” and more, “I’m sorry, but this fell into my lap.” They don’t need to know how much of that is true, you know?

      Don’t let them guilt you. You took the job in good faith.

    11. Regretting my new job part 2*

      For what it’s worth:

      1) We clock in and out and are paid by the hour BUT it’s treated more or less as a salaried job (ie can go to doctors appointments or lunch without clocking out etc).
      2) I usually walk with a coworker who is also new, and she was not similarly reprimanded (which I know because I told her about it when it happened and she was surprised). She said the person who trained her regularly took hour long walks in the afternoon.
      3) I routinely took lunch at my desk.
      4) No concerns about my performance were raised in conjunction with the time, nor had any been raised previously, with the exception that my boss once told me my emails were too long. I wouldn’t have been so miffed about it if she mentioned that she was concerned with my work but to the best of my understanding I’ve been doing well. (Have had no real feedback at all, honestly? And my job has not ever taken up the full 9.5 hours we were required to be there in a day.) I spent most of my time there being pretty bored.

      In the end the job just wasn’t right for me. It wasn’t about the coffee, but that just solidified my decision.

      1. Elizabeth H.*

        If the job is salaried, you don’t clock in or out for lunch or if you have to leave mid day for a doctor’s appointment, and you typically stay at your desk working over lunch, it seems to me that leaving the office for a walk or coffee break or something during the work day would be a standard feature of this type of role. It seems very weird to me that it would be seen as inappropriate.
        Lots of people work through lunch but take some other leave-the-office break. Not because they are “proven” but bc if you have a salary job and generally manage your own time it should include that type of minor flexibility from the get go.

        1. Regretting my new job part 2*

          Right, and when I was on the fence about taking the job my boss told me she wasn’t a micromanager about what hours we worked as long as it was 47.5/week and we arrived by 8:30 every morning. Which I always did, so I figured I was in the clear. I was told I could manage my own time within that framework so I did and then got reprimanded for it so…whatever.

          I start my new job October 9 and I have this week off so I am enjoying not having to go get coffee in the first place because I didn’t have to get up before dawn to get to work on time! :)

    12. Safetykats*

      Just in case you haven’t had this conversation yet – I would try hard to keep it about business concerns. You can absolutely say the schedule isn’t working for you, and leave it at that. Talking about how unhappy you are – in my opinion – probably isn’t appropriate. It’s not your manager’s job to make you happy, and blaming your short tenure on unhappiness with the culture and lack of passion for the job doesn’t make you look any better. You don’t really owe them an explanation, so just give your two weeks notice and move on.

      I do hope you’re at least planning to give standard notice. That is probably the only thing you can do to help the situation at this point, and so I think it’s important. It sounds like they suspected they were just filling a gap for you, and you’ve proved them right much faster than they thought you would – which probably means you’re unlikely to ever get any kind of good reference from them. However, handling your departure professionally and by the book may mean they won’t have any concrete reason to give you a bad one.

      1. Regretting my new job part 2*

        I planned to give two weeks but I ended up getting walked that day (which I thought I might, it’s sales and I was technically moving to a competitor) but I took extreme care to leave good notes on everything I was working on in the time I was given—about two hours or so, I guess. I’d never been walked before so I didn’t really know what to expect as far as what I would have to do to wrap things up. And yeah, I probably burned a bridge with that boss in particular but the HR guy, to my surprise, assured me I wasn’t leaving on bad terms and that I could contact him if I ever looked for a job with that particular company again. I doubt I will since their policies played a huge role in why I left, but it was still nice to hear.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      OK, well, I think you know you’ve probably burned a bridge here… BUT as Allison says you get a pass on a job that is a bad fit ONCE as long as this kind of thing doesn’t happen often. Six weeks is not long, and you will most likely leave this job off your resume.
      I think you phrase it as you’ve said, that you did try to make it work, and are indeed sorry, but the company culture/job/hours are just not a good fit for you and rather than prolong this mismatch you’ve decided to leave. I don’t think I’d tell them you’ve even found another position.

      Sometimes things simply don’t work out.
      As for feeling the “guilt trip,” just don’t. Most companies wouldn’t hesitate to fire you without a by-your-leave.

    14. Looc64*

      I interpreted “25 minutes tops” as 25 being the maximum length, and longer than the average length of these breaks. If that’s the case, then the breaks might usually be a reasonable length.

      1. Regretting my new job part 2*

        FWIW, I would probably estimate 15-20 on average—five minute walk there, five minutes in line, five minutes back. Occasionally we would also hit another coffee shop because we each didn’t like the other’s national chain preference, and there was one of each within two blocks of our office. Those walks were usually closer to that 25 minute mark depending on the crowd in each shop, but we didn’t do that as often.

        Again, if it was raised earlier or in conjunction with something I needed to improve, fine. There was a time where I was about to head out to grab coffee that there was something urgent my boss needed me for and I was more than happy to turn my butt around and do what she needed me to do, because work is more important than coffee. But when nothing urgent was on my plate and it’s a beautiful morning, I don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t have been allowed to take a quick walk for some coffee.

    15. Beryl*

      I have had the same experience in my life…always taking a job that I can do, but not passionate about it. I don’t know how old you are, but I have to tell you to work at what you want and what you are going to enjoy regardless of the money. Flexibility. well, you might have to cut your coffee time to 5 to 10 minutes and have your long coffee breaks during lunch. Coffee is not that important. When you take a job just based on financial and pressure from other people that you don’t have a job, is a big mistake. Don’t waste time. Say yes to what you REALLY want and need. Time is very precious and to waste time, nerves and dignity on something you don’t want is not a good idea at all. I would speak to my superior and say: I really appreciate you offering me this position and I have to agree with you that maybe that taking this job may not have been the best choice. However, I did learn valuable skills in my short tenure here, that I will be able to use in my next job. Thank you so much for welcoming into your Company. I wish you the best at your new job.

  2. Definitely_maybe*

    — Such-a-cute-colleague type of question —

    I found a new job this week. I’m really happy about that, hated my current one. I’ve already communicated my decision to my supervisors.

    I’ve spent last months working full-time on a project in another city – one in which my next job is based and where I will be moving to for good in several weeks.

    In the project team there was a coworker I sometimes had some contact with, but not much. He’s 2 levels higher in the hierarchy than I am, but I was reporting to his colleague, not him. At some point he started staring at me – I found him attractive already before that but it was only then that I developed a bit of an infatuation with him. Or was it because of the job which I hated? He always seemed so sweet and polite compared to this awful position.

    If I understood it correctly, when he learnt that I was considering changing my job, he pressed my direct supervisors to offer me an immediate promotion to stay. That’s something I found out indirectly, but I think my interpretation was correct. Which shows he’s at least a nice person I guess. Although it might be that he was simply very happy with my work – I know all managers were – and that I’m reading too much into it. (I turned the offer down).

    The question is of course whether I should do something about the infatuation, now that I’m leaving the company.

    Is there any way for me to find out for sure if he wants to meet me after work? Or, better, is there a way to make him want to meet me? :) I don’t think he’s married, can’t know whether he’s in a relationship. We are in a similar age. He seems slightly introverted and shy. I’m an INTJ and not very good with understanding if a man likes me or not, wouldn’t like to embarrass myself. The truth is I don’t know if I didn’t misinterpret everything I know about him.

    1. lisalee*

      How about sending him an email (after you’ve left, of course) with something like “As I’m sure you heard, I’ve taken a new job at Company B in City. I really enjoyed working with you at Company A and I was wondering if you would like to get a coffee sometime.”

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This is the best option. Super casual. If nothing else, it could be the foundation for a good friendship.

      4. k.k*

        This is great because if it turns out you’re reading him wrong, this still sounds very casual and professional. That could easily be interpreted or spun as wanting to stay in touch as a business contact, friendly catch up, or more.

    2. Sadsack*

      Maybe you could send him a message that you are leaving and enjoyed working with him, and that you are moving to where he lives so he should let you know if he’d like to catch up some time?

    4. fposte*

      “Hey, I’d love to keep in touch after I leave; maybe we can get coffee. Could I get your number?” Then if he gives it to you text him, maybe a week after you go, about coffee. If you don’t get an enthusiastic yes, let it go.

      There are never any guarantees, but I don’t think a “No” is an embarrassment; just a pitch you legitimately and politely swung at and missed.

    5. JN*

      Since she’s moving to his city, perhaps she could ask him if he has any recommendations or knowledge about something there that she might not have discovered while working in that area temporarily. Could provide the opportunity for a no-pressure interaction.

    6. Lucky*

      I say, through caution to the wind and ask him out. I know, if he says no, he doesn’t like you that way or that he’s married or something, it will be embarassing. But it will only be embarassing for a minute, because then you’ll walk out of his office & out of the building and you won’t run into him in the halls a million times a day.

      Or even just, on one of your last days, go into his office, tell him you’ve enjoyed working with him, thank him for recommending you for a promotion (if it’s not totally weird that you would have heard that rumor) and tell him that if he ever wants to get together for coffee or drinks, to send you an email. Then hand him a post-it with your email and phone number.

      OR, just say all of that stuff in an email to him, with your personal email address and phone number and say something like “let’s keep in touch.”

      [I think he LIKE likes you and you obvs LIKE like him so you should give it a try. Then come back so I can have some vicarious romance since I’m a boring married person.]
      [My marriage is happy and very not boring, but sparks flying and first kisses and all that is my jam.]

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      Ask him out. Why not? Just be clear about your intentions. It’s unkind to ask someone out for ‘not-really-a-date’ when you really want a date, especially if it is just to save face if in case you’re rejected.

      1. FiveWheels*

        Yes, this. I’m not a fan of Schrodingers Dates. (I’m in a Schrodingers Relationship at the moment but that doesn’t mean I think they’re good ideas, lol)

    9. Stop That Goat*

      So, I think casual is best way to handle this like suggested. I think I’d stay away from ‘trying to make someone want to meet you’ though.

      1. Definitely_maybe*

        This “trying to make someone” thing wasn’t meant very seriously.
        Although I think we all try to present ourselves as attractive as possible to the people we fancy and make them fancy us.

        1. Stop That Goat*

          Sorry, but it came off to me a little like trying to force someone. Just an outside perspective. You aren’t making someone fancy you. You are putting yourself out there and they either will or they won’t.

    10. ClownBaby*

      Don’t beat around the bush. If he thinks it’s a professional/networking thing and not a date…him being in a relationship won’t necessarily stop him from saying yes.

      On your last day, or (if you have his contact info) after you’ve left, plainly say to him “Would you like to go on a date sometime?”Like ripping off a bandaid. There will be know speculation about “Is it a date? Is it not? Does he like me or is he just networking?” Worst thing he can say is no. Which, I’ll admit, can sting. Rejection sucks. But it’d be over just like that.

      Best of luck!

    11. Anon this time*

      I’ve been in a sort of similar position lately, except it was them who left and I have no idea whether they liked me more than a colleague or not.
      As they are the sort of person I would love to just stay in touch with and get to know better as friends, even if they don’t like me like that, I dropped them a good luck message and then told them to let me know if they ever fancy a coffee.
      Ball’s in their court now, I may never hear from them again, but the opening is there if they want to use it (for a date or just a coffee), and if they don’t then I (hopefully) didn’t come across as a really creepy individual!!
      Good luck with whatever message you decide to send :)

  3. D.W.*

    How do hiring managers and companies view candidates applying for more than one job?

    I am ready to move on from my current job and transition into another field completely. I have done some work (internships, fellowships, and volunteering), in the field I want to permanently transition into, but I haven’t been able to find full-time employment (probably because I lack many years of experience in said field).

    There are two jobs at Company A that are really up my alley. The only thing is one job is a program assistant position and the other a program officer position. I’m currently an associate at my company, and to be honest, I don’t want to regress back into an assistant position, but this field is pretty hard to break into, so I’d be willing to start off as an assistant to get my foot in the door.

    I want to apply to both because, based on the job descriptions, I know I could do both really well, but I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot since they aren’t the same title or pay grade.

    1. Dawson*

      I wouldn’t mind hearing the answer to this either. I’ve got an application in at a company for a manager position in my field, but they’re also advertising two other management positions (they all appear to be part of a new group being formed) and several individual contributor positions (all reporting to the aforementioned managers). I would have included in my cover letter that I’m good with any of the manager positions in the group, but their automated system allow allowed uploading of one document – so I attached my resume. I don’t know whether I’m expected to submit for the other manager position or not.

      I assumed that if they were under the same hiring manager, they’d be smart enough to be able to reallocate the incoming resumes themselves and would be annoyed with multiple submissions.

      On the other hand, it’s been a month and I’ve not heard anything, so I’m assuming the submitted resume wasn’t strong enough for what they were looking for. Although I hold out hope that Hurricane Harvey just delayed things. :)

    3. esra*

      So generally I’ve been okay with people applying to a couple jobs on a similar level (say, social media and copywriter, with skills in both), but am wary of someone applying for different levels of the same job, which it sounds like you’ve got here. If the program officer job is the one you’d want, I’d throw my hat in for that one. If they like you but don’t find you quite qualified enough, then they can pitch the lower-level option to you. We’ve done that for candidates we like, but don’t quite fit the job they applied to.

      1. Where's the Le-Toose?*

        I agree completely with this advice for private sector jobs. I’m a managing attorney in a government office, but when I was in private practice, when someone applied for both the senior and junior role simultaneously, it always struck me as the candidate being desperate. D.W., go for the more senior job if that’s the one you want!

        However, as for public sector jobs, if you ever apply for a civil service position, then you have to apply for each one if you want to be considered for each one. If you apply for Senior Teapot Analyst and don’t apply for the Junior Analyst position, they can’t offer you the junior position, even if they really like you for that spot.

        1. LAI*

          I work at a public university and I’d have the same questions about someone applying for multiple roles seeming desperate, or not particularly thoughtful about their search. I see applications ALL THE TIME where it just seems like the person is literally applying for every single job at our organization. So if you do apply for both, I think you need to write very good cover letters for each, explaining why you are applying for both. If you only apply for higher level position, then I think the risk is that they won’t necessarily think to consider you for the lower position or they might fill the lower position first.

        2. Artemesia*

          We often recruited for similar positions that were senior and junior. If we got a good candidate applying for the senior job that we felt was more junior we would just query to see if they were interested in being considered for the other position and let them know what that would mean in terms of salary difference. It happens fairly often and it isn’t always clear what the difference would be to the candidate when they applied.

    5. Quirk*

      From experience in my current company, with candidates interviewing for positions in different teams it’s been no problem at all; if the positions were at different levels I think it would only attract much attention if the candidate seemed ill-suited to one of the roles.

      However, if you have two interviews, you have twice as much chance to say something that someone takes as a red flag and communicates to people involved in the other hiring; I’m not sure how to weight that, but it is probably worth considering.

      1. Quirk*

        That is to say, applying for senior engineer / team lead is probably viable, but junior engineer / CTO not so much.

    7. designbot*

      The times I regard multiple applications poorly is when they’re for really different jobs. I just reviewed one yesterday in fact for two totally different positions in my company, and won’t be moving forward with the candidate despite them seeming qualified, because I’m hiring for the position in the department we’re less well-known in, and my assumption is that he’d rather be doing what we’re more well-known for otherwise he would’ve tailored his application to my position. I’m afraid that if I hired him, he’d be trying to make a sideways move into another department ASAP and leave me in the lurch.
      BUT, that’s not the case with you! You’re essentially applying for one role type, and being open with them that you might be on the bubble between these two levels of it, and you’d like them to assess which one would be the better fit. Ideally you could find someone in your field to advise you, but in the absence of that I think it’s an understandable place to be in with no underhanded intent (like in my example), and easily covered in your cover letter.

    8. Liane*

      I think it depends, like many things, on the company. There is a pretty big employer in town, a teaching hospital and health professions university; everyone is employed by state government, so okay pay and great benefits. A very good friend* who worked there, encouraged me to apply there over and over, told me all about the culture and gave interview tips. She assured me that applying for multiple positions in the areas I qualified for was okay and encouraged, and when I started getting interviews, I got the same message from hiring managers and HR.
      But I know not every place is like that.

    9. Trout 'Waver*

      Honestly, I view it as a negative. Not so much so that I wouldn’t interview a qualified candidate.

      It goes in the category of things that aren’t disqualifiers, but that the best candidates usually don’t do.

    10. Jadelyn*

      It depends on how similar or dissimilar the two roles are. If they’re adjacent or overlapping roles – say, Marketing Associate, and Outreach Specialist, which both are part of the marketing & communications team and require similar skills for the most part, just have different focuses – then I don’t see anything wrong with it, although I’d recommend you note in your CL that you’re also applying to [other role] so it’s known upfront by the hiring managers.

      Different levels of the same job, though…I actually saw that not too long ago. We have a branch with a member services position and a manager position open, and someone applied to both. I side-eyed that one a little – if you’ve got management experience, why on earth are you considering regressing to a customer service role? And if you’re more qualified for the customer service role, you don’t have the necessary experience to be a manager and I’m not sure why you applied to that, which makes me wonder about your judgment.

      It wouldn’t be a red flag, but it would be a yellow flag and definitely something I’d be exploring in a screening or interview with you.

      1. JanetM*

        “We have a branch with a member services position and a manager position open, and someone applied to both.”

        I could imagine the thought process behind that being along the lines of, “I’ve been doing member services for N years, and I’ve taken on some manager-type responsibilities, or filled in for the manager when she was on vacation, and I think I’m ready to move up to a manager position. But I’ll cover my bases by applying for both.”

        But I’m just making that up in my head, and I could easily be wrong.

        1. D.W.*

          That’s exactly my thinking, but from what I read, my motive would more than likely be called into question. So I want to weigh the costs as it were.

    11. D.W.*

      If I can add more information.

      This is in the non-profit sector. My preference would be for another associate position, but they don’t have any associate vacancies. And I have the same thoughts about only applying for the higher position, but possibly being offered or considered for the lower position.

      I guess what I’m afraid of is only applying for higher position and not being considered for the assistant position, which then places both positions out of reach because I wouldn’t then apply for the assistant position.

      Any way I look at it it looks like a gamble, but all of your responses are really helping me decide on the best way to approach it.

      1. PunkrockPM*

        I wish I had seen this thread sooner. I’ve applied for multiple, related, positions in several companies. Really need to get Alison’s book!

    12. Kimberlee, Esq.*

      At my company, we like it when people apply for lots of jobs; we have a strong preference for people who are really pumped about coming to work for us specifically. Plus, we’re big enough that hiring is a bit siloed; there’s too much going on to expect that a hiring manager for one job would automatically think to consider you for another in a different part of the company, so I always tell candidates to apply for all the jobs that they want separately so they don’t fall thru the cracks.

    13. Chaordic One*

      Back when I worked in H.R. I would encourage qualified applicants to apply for more than one position. Often, very similar positions would be in different departments and the people who actually reviewed the applications and made the hiring decisions would never know if an applicant had applied for a similar position in a different department because there was no one keeping track of that. Of course there were rare occasions where two different jobs might be open in the same department and in that case, Allison’s advice is sound.

  4. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Thanks everyone who gave me advice on attending my first professional conference! It was last weekend and it was fantastic. I learned a lot and ate way too much!

    2. periwinkle*

      There’s no such thing as eating too much at a conference. Too little, certainly…

      Professional conferences can be a lot of fun, especially when you’re surrounded by people immersed in work similar to yours. Someone who understands, yay! I’ve learned a ton from conferences. Sometimes it’s interesting to pick a random session about something outside your realm – you never know what you might bring back to your own specialization.

  5. Emergency contacts*

    Inspired by the recent discussion about emergency contact numbers, I’ll be reaching out to our 100+ employees soon and getting all of their contact information updated. I’d also like to put some kind of company-wide policy in place that describes under which circumstances an emergency contact will be called – i.e., a certain amount of time after a no-call, no-show. However, we employ office workers, warehouse workers, and retail workers, and their behaviour to coming in to work can vary widely. For example, office workers are almost never absent without leave. Warehouse workers sometimes just stop coming in without warning, instead of formally quitting. And due to the nature of their variable schedule, sometimes retail workers will mix up their hours and miss a shift or come in late unintentionally. Has anyone here had any success in setting up an emergency contact policy in such an environment? (Or maybe just in retail or warehouse environments alone?)

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you’d be fine to make a consistent policy. Presumably if a retail worker screws up their schedule and you call them to find out why they aren’t at work, they will actually answer the phone and communicate that.

      Whatever steps you put in place should obviously include reaching out to the employee directly as a first step.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’d write the policy to be open ended, such as “The company may call your emergency contact under these circumstances: x,y,x”
      That gives you permission to call, but in the case of a flaky employee you don’t have to call, because you pretty much already know they quit.

    3. Liane*

      Considering we’ve had a couple letters from people whose contact–even out of town ones–got called for ridiculous reasons, like the employee already called in, make clear that this won’t happen.

      1. nonymous*

        What about tying it to HR-level escalation? So the supervisor or manager doesn’t have access to emergency info willy-nilly, they have to ask HR to reach out as part of a defined follow-up procedure after employee fails to respond directly. This also takes the onus off an individual manager to document appropriately in case the employee did walk off the job or needs to be on a PIP.

        I imagine that reaching out at this level would be rare and for consistency’s sake, should be a task limited to a small number of staff to prevent any faux pas.

        1. Luku*

          I can imagine HR being Very Unimpressed with having this added to their workload. I would create a policy like this cooperatively with any HR staff to make sure it will actually be implemented.

          2. Emergency contacts*

            I am, in fact, a one-person HR department, and am completely fine with having this added to my workload. I intend to be the guarder of all contact information.

          3. CoffeeLover*

            Depends on the level dysfunction in the HR department. I’ve had HR departments where even asking them to do their job made them Very Unimpressed.

    4. Student*

      Mostly, people want their personal number kept mostly private – available to their own boss, not available to every boss int he company and especially not available to everyone else in the company. As a woman who works in a male-dominated field, I don’t want just any guy in my company to have my number, and I will give you a fake number or burner phone number if I think you’re going to do that to me.

      They’ll want to know they are not “on call” and this is just for emergencies. If you have union employees, make sure you check their contract, in case there are rules about contacting them outside of work, so that you abide by your contract’s rules for them.

      I don’t think you need to say much in the policy. I think you need to make it clear to the people who will have access to these numbers when they are and are not appropriate to use, more than anything else. That’s not the same as writing a policy – that means actually stepping through the policy with them.

      1. Emergency Planner*

        Yes. Professional emergency manager here – corporate and govt.

        People sometimes hate giving their home and cell phones. I get so much pushback, even from people who insist on being designated critical personnel.

        So two things I’ve found works:
        1) “It’s not mandatory, but could be important in an emergency.” (Some quirk of human psychology – I’ve only had maybe 3 people still refuse after that, at 20ish client orgs.)
        2) Show you care like freaking freak about PII Data and safeguarding it. Put “PII data” in the subject, and a bold italicized red line at top and bottom that “This contains PII Data, you must safeguard as per company data security policy/Privacy Act”. Be very clear when it gets used and who has access to it.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked/supervised in retail/manufacturing settings. Let people have discretion here as much as possible.
      First, make the emergency contact number optional.
      Second, keep that info within the immediate group, such as the supervisor or department head.
      Next, indicate that the emergency number would only be used in times of absolute emergency, such as bad weather or serious injury on the job. This last step here allows some leverage for reprimanding bosses who use the emergency contact info in irresponsible ways. Upper management can say, “That emergency number is for dire situations only, not to harass Employee’s Family Member because Employee was late for the fourth time this week.”
      As far as no calls no shows, that can be handled by telling the employee when they start that absences without a phone call are not tolerated.

      1. MI Dawn*

        My company always requests emergency contact(s) and tests them quarterly – email, phone, cell, whatever you give them (we’re insurance, so we may have to work/be contacted in a state of emergency.) Most of my managers have also requested emergency numbers. I’ve rarely been contacted out of business hours, and only once would I have personally not considered it an emergency. I’ve never been contacted to check on me if I didn’t show up to work. However, I can see if I am a no-show my bosses would check on me, knowing that I always, always, always notify them if I won’t be in the building or working from home.

        If I was a no-call, no-show, I can imagine being checked on. It doesn’t bother me since they don’t abuse it.

    7. Emergency Planner*

      We generally look at those populations separately, because they just have different expectations and experiences.

      Corporate office workers, warehouse (which has a mix of office, management/sups, highly skilled floor, low skilled floor — and many workers don’t have a cell phone) and stores (which have mix of managers and workers).

      In general, here is a really good resource for small businesses. https://www.ready.gov/business

      Don’t forget, Sept is Preparedness Month! Good time for this.

    8. Blue birds fly*

      I suggest you also get the physical address of the emergency contact(s). I found out the hard way that first responders would rather deliver bad news in person instead of over the phone. One of my coworkers passed away suddenly, and we did not have her son’s physical address. The whole situation was heartbreaking already, and not having this information added an unexpected level of stress.

  6. comms coaching conundrum*

    One of my colleagues has asked for help coaching one of his team members with a communication issue as part of formal performance improvement that I’m not sure how to approach. I’m much more confident coaching writing rather than verbal comms stuff, so I’d appreciate some input.

    His staff member is completely fine when communicating in writing, but has had repeated feedback from frustrated team members and other employees outside the team that when he speaks to them in person (particularly when it’s an off-the-cuff conversation rather than a planned interaction), he comes across as condescending and superior. He interrupts and makes a lot of assumptions about what the person is about to say before they’ve finished speaking. This issue seems to get worse when the employee is asked a question about an area where they have a significant amount of experience or technical knowledge.

    Based on the info I’ve had so far, the main issue seems to be lack of self-awareness about how he’s coming across, rather than a personality issue around actually *being* superior or condescending – the employee doesn’t come across as arrogant otherwise, has taken the feedback extremely well so far, is enthusiastic about working on this, and understands that he’ll need to improve this aspect of his communication in order to keep his job. But his own suggestions so far for how to improve have come across as tone deaf and suggest poor understanding of how other people perceive him (and how they prefer to be communicated with).

    This is trickier than anything I’ve had to give coaching on before, and my question is twofold:

    If you’ve had an employee like this (difficult and condescending in conversation, but not actually arrogant/egotistical otherwise) who’s managed to make significant improvements, what coaching or self-awareness techniques helped them to overcome the issue?

    And if you’ve been the person receiving feedback about your in-person communication style rubbing people up the wrong way, what helped you develop self-awareness around the issue and improve your communication? Any particular lightbulb moments?

    1. Dawson*

      We have someone like that in our office. As I’ve observed the situation (and how close I might come to being labeled as such), I’ve been trying to implement one rule more in my own communications. Maybe it’s simple enough that your employee can find value in trying himself:

      Listen more than you speak.

      If we can practice more active listening, try to make less assumptions, and make the things we say simple and concise, it generally comes across far less condescending.

      1. Jesca*

        I think you nailed it! He is just not actively listening and it is coming across as condescending and arrogant. I would definitely pick up some literature on this and use it. He just needs to pause and listen and doesn’t realize that.

    2. NW Mossy*

      The key with this kind of thing (and really most issues at work) is that you have to get very very specific about the kinds of behaviors that work well and the kinds that don’t, with clear examples. I coached an employee on something similar and she found them really helpful and did make a significant improvement. In this situation, that might look like this:

      Works Well – Nodding to show agreement, reflecting the other person’s thought back (“So if I’m understanding correctly, you’re saying that…”), asking neutral questions (“Can you tell me more about that?”), letting the other person speak first and most

      Doesn’t Work Well – Interrupting before someone’s finished speaking, finishing someone’s thought for them, doing most of the talking in the conversation

      From there, it’s about teaching the employee to recognize the good and not-so-good behaviors as they’re happening and to pay attention to how it changes their results. Pretty soon, the good results become their own form of reinforcement for further improvement, and that’s really cool to see.

    3. atgo*

      First, I would give the clear direction that interrupting should be entirely off the table for him.

      Second, going over active listening techniques and underlining that the key is to make sure you fully understand what the other person is saying. You can practice these skills with him in focused, scenario oriented role plays. Bonus points if you video tape them and review them with him – a lot of times people don’t see the impact of their communication styles until they can actually watch them from the outside. My company invests in leadership training with an external company that takes cohorts of people through some of this, and it’s paid off in dividends.

      Just a personal aside here as well to support how important it is for this guy to get this feedback while he’s willing to take it… I’m one of the few women in the technical side of the organization I work in. We used to have a (male) director in a different team who consistently behaved this way, especially towards me. The relationship was so personally challenging that it made me question my competence and ability to stay in my field (despite the fact that I have consistently been one of the most high-performing people in my peer group at every job/volunteer position/class I’ve ever had). Additionally, the culture on his team was incredibly toxic and engendered more of this problematic behavior, isolating them in the organization. At the time, the executive he reported to was really weak (has since left) so there wasn’t any avenue for correction there. I did eventually confront him about it; it went so badly that I told my management I would no longer be interacting with this person unless it was explicitly required of me. Finally (thankfully!) he left and I’ve been able to be more effective in my work.

      1. Dawson*

        In my office, you can’t hardly get a word in edgewise if you don’t interrupt the “one who must teach us all everything they know.”

      2. Bend & Snap*

        All of this. I train people on giving interviews as part of my job, and the hardest people to coach are the ones who don’t really understand how their behavior comes across. Video is a great way to point out behaviors and have someone look at them objectively.

      3. LKW*

        I second the video taping, there are all sorts of negative non-verbal cues such as leaning back with arms crossed, lack of eye contact, pointing, putting one’s hand up in the “stop” pose. Waving one’s hand dismissively while saying “That won’t work – I’ve seen that fail.” is negative but saying “That idea has merit but in my experience, these are potential risks… how can we mitigate them?” is collaborative.

        The interrupting has to stop. Period. It’s rude. We do it when we’re on conference calls because we can’t see one another – but if everyone is in the same room, interrupting is rude.

        1. Mike C.*

          “That won’t work – I’ve seen that fail.” is negative but saying “That idea has merit but in my experience, these are potential risks… how can we mitigate them?” is collaborative.

          Wait, why is this bad to say if it’s the truth? Risks have a probability of failure while if you know something is certain to fail there are few things more demoralizing than wasting time, effort and resources on something that simply won’t work. Especially if someone knew it wasn’t going to work but put the emphasis on collaboration rather than results.

          Or are you focusing more on the “waving hands” issue?

          1. NaoNao*

            It’s not bad to say that an idea has serious, even fatal risks. It’s more in how you say it. If the person bringing you the idea didn’t arrive with a powerpoint full of CAD renderings, it’s likely they just had an “elevator pitch” not the fine details. If one is dismissive of an idea right out of the gate withOUT any fine details, it comes off as very rude and harsh.
            So I think what is being said is “seek to understand before saying that it’s going to fail”.

            1. Mike C.*

              Ok, I can see that point.

              Yet, and maybe it’s because I work in such a highly regulated environment but if someone told me “we’re going to do A, B and C” and I know that A, B and C go against Federal Teapot Administration regulations, or they go against the plans signed and certified by Teapot Engineering, it doesn’t make sense to me discuss the merits and risk mitigation plans for an idea.

              Now, so long as I sense there isn’t anything unethical going on I’ll certainly try to find alternatives that work, but at least in my industry I would feel like it’s my responsibility to point these issues out early and directly (and have done so in the past) rather than being more circumspect.

          2. NW Mossy*

            “I’ve seen that fail” is generally not problematic – you’re just describing your own experience, and can go into more detail about why it didn’t work. But “that won’t work” assumes a future that hasn’t yet come to pass, and that’s why it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. People are often wary when someone expresses certainty about the future (“it will be like this”) rather than a probability (“it’s highly likely it’ll be like this”), because it triggers that “how can you be so convinced that it’ll work out the way you think?” reaction.

            I have a co-manager who says “that’ll never work” a lot, and it drives me up a tree because she doesn’t understand the extent to which her intense reaction will shut down the very discussion she needs to draw out good ideas. When I talked to her about why, she expressed the same point you did – why waste time? But many people can’t develop good ideas and drop them in front of a group like shiny perfect pearls – they need to wrestle with bad ideas, think through why they’re not right, pick out the salvageable bits, and then piece together a decent concept from the wreckage. Most ideas are not out-and-out terrible in every respect; it’s more that they’re not sufficiently responsive to some critical point. But when you say “that’ll never work,” people are picking up your implied message of “never speak of this idea again, and be wary about bringing me anything less than perfect in the future.”

          3. Someone else*

            I think you can still speak the truth but the difference might be between “That won’t work – I’ve seen that fail.” comes across a little like “You’re wrong. I’m right. No.” Where “I’ve had a number of experiences where that method wasn’t successful, so I advise against it.” comes across more like “I’ve considered it but disagree.” The ultimate point is the same, expressing you think it’s a bad idea, but I think the latter will be more well-received by most.

    4. nonymous*

      I just want to point out that while interrupting and being condescending is inappropriate and unprofessional, take a hard look at the expectations of the rest of the team. I work with a group that is highly technical and skilled in an area that is tangential to mine. It is very very common for them to assume that their (very superficial and incomplete) knowledge of my field is on par with their competence in their own area. Plus they are completely dismissive of my field. So I have had to work very hard to polish my “with all due respect…” and “Let’s back up to XYZ for a moment,….” type statements. It may be that the employee does not have such skills or does not realize that a persistent soft touch is needed.

      An analogy would be someone driving in a Ford Flex and assuming the model name means flex-fuel.

    5. designbot*

      I’ve been that person, and stumbled on something that really helped me through kind of an indirect means. I started making sure that I was expressing gratitude to one person a day–whether it was about something big or small, making sure I took the time to say “Thank you so much for X,” or “I really appreciate the work you put into Y” to teammates. This really helped out because I was coming at more conversations from the perspective of looking for something the other person was doing RIGHT so I could complement them, and also I think it bought me a bit more benefit of the doubt in my colleagues’ eyes. Not only did my bosses noticed and repeatedly said how amazed they were at my transformation, but I managed to do it without feeling like I was faking my way through the day.
      I know this might sound unrelated to coming off as condescending, etc. but I promise that when you reframe your interactions with people in your own mind it has ripple effects through all of your interactions.

    6. N Twello*

      I’m glad that he’s receptive to coaching on this issue, and as long as the coaching is done with a lot of encouragement and positive feedback, it might be fine.
      But I am concerned about all these co-workers who have been complaining about him. This doesn’t seem like a serious enough offence to warrant an official complaint. It sounds more like annoyed gossip, and like they’re ganging up on him.
      Offices can have a lot of social dynamics, and one that is pretty common is the group turning on one of their own. Often there is a single instigator and a lot of people who follow that person. There can also be multiple instigators. But the point is: a whole bunch of people complaining about someone does not always mean that the person is a problem. It can be a sign that you are developing a toxic work environment.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I think this is very common with people who are highly intelligent in the US. Others are already feeling stupid so if you don’t do a good enough job greasing the social wheel for them it results in complaints to management. I have been in his shoes many many many times.

    7. N Twello*

      I’m glad that he’s receptive to coaching on this issue, and as long as the coaching is done with a lot of encouragement and positive feedback, it might be fine.

      But I am concerned about all these co-workers who have been complaining about him. This doesn’t seem like a serious enough offence to warrant an official complaint. It sounds more like annoyed gossip, and like they’re ganging up on him.

      Offices can have a lot of social dynamics, and one that is pretty common is the group turning on one of their own. Often there is a single instigator and a lot of people who follow that person. There can also be multiple instigators. Why are they complaining about that behavior, and not other annoying behavior? The root cause could be that they’re jealous, racist, sexist, ageist, etc – or just that they always single out someone.

      Multiple complaints do not necessarily make the complaints valid. A whole bunch of people complaining about someone does not always mean that the person is a problem. It can be a sign that you are developing a toxic work environment. Perhaps your workplace could use a team bonding exercise that emphasizes treating each other with respect and kindness.

      1. Friyay*

        Yes this 100%. I had a group of women gang up on me and say that I was mean and condescending because I had said that a suggestion was “inappropriate” because of A, B and C. When I spoke with HR about it, I politely reviewed the definition of the word appropriate and why the suggestion was in fact inappropriate and it was all cleared up. The people involved later said that they felt terrible and ridiculous about the whole thing.
        The culture within that office is known to be toxic and multiple people have left.
        It is possible that the person you are referencing is rude, condescending and creating a terrible work environment, but I would also look very carefully at the people who are complaining so that you are sure that you have the full story…

    8. Phoenix Programmer*

      I have been that coworker. Something that has helped me whenever anyone comes over to me is to think “this person is going to have emotions about work event. How do I want then to feel about my response?” Then I use emotional language like “I am sorry you are dealing with this (technical item that is not my fault but I am helping fix). Here is solution!” Previously I would jump straight to “here is solution” and was getting a lot of complaints that I make people feel stupid etc.

  7. TGIF*

    My current position is a support position to a team in marketing/sales. There are two directors, a team of 15 representatives, and then me and Alex in our support positions. Alex’s focus is the directors and mine are the representatives.

    Alex is leaving in the next few weeks and I’m worried about what is to come. There has been talk of not filling in Alex’s position and just having me support everyone. This is not possible; at least, not without me going crazy trying to keep everyone happy. I think the directors don’t realize how needy and dependent on Alex they are because they told me that not much would change for me, but I know everything Alex does; there’s no way for one person to do both jobs. The directors said not much will change for me but I don’t believe them, and neither did Alex when he heard that comment.

    I’m even more anxious because this is exactly what happened in my last job. I was one of three support staff; one left and her work was split between me and my coworker. Manageable workload between the two of us. But then my coworker left and my bosses tried to make do the work of all three of us. When I tried to push back, to say it wasn’t possible, they didn’t listen to me and just forced it all on me. It was one of the big factors for why I left that job.

    So I’m terrified it’s going to happen again. Is there anything I can do? I don’t mind helping with the extra work while we’re in a transition period looking for someone new to fill Alex’s place but I worry the directors will think that everything is going fine with just me at the helm. What can I do to make them understand what’s manageable? Or do I need to start looking for a new job again? Is this a common thing, to not fill in positions and just dump the work on others to save money? Also if a new person comes and the directors wanted the new employee to help the representatives and me to help the directors, is there any way I can express my preference to stay with the reps? Given a choice between them, I much more prefer to help the team of representatives; their tasks are more varied and less frantic than the directors.

    1. Blue*

      Can you get a written summary of the tasks Alex is responsible for (maybe with an estimate of how many hours per week)? Then if you do the same with your responsibilities you should be in a better position to talk to management about what responsibilities you’re expected to cover.

      It should be very clear that covering everything is just not possible.

      1. Hermione*

        And if they ignore you, go back to them every time you’re overloaded and point out how long each task will take, and then tell them which tasks you’re going to prioritize over others.

        And meanwhile, I would start putting out feelers for new jobs, because you’ve lived through this before and know that sometimes managers don’t listen.

      2. LKW*

        Seconded. This is the only way to help the directors see how much effort is required to support them. Alex makes it look effortless because he’s good at his job, not because it takes no effort.

    2. Samiratou*

      ” Is this a common thing, to not fill in positions and just dump the work on others to save money”

      IME, yes, very much so. Ahead of time, I would say document as much of Alex’s workload as you can, but if they don’t want to hire, you will need to establish boundaries and priorities and get good at asking the directors, when you don’t have time to do All The Things, which are a priority. If this means you end up not supporting the reps because the directors take all your time (my money is on this happening), you will need to be clear with the reps about your priorities, which are controlled by the directors. It then puts the onus on them to complain about lack of support, but if work isn’t getting done that may be the only way to get the directors to understand that two people really are necessary for everyone to get the support they need.

    3. Artemesia*

      This happens all the time. I would now be keeping really good records of what you do each day and have Alex do the same and provide them to you. When he leaves, I would do what you can and let the rest fall off the table When that happens, you say to your current people, ‘I won’t be able to get to this, because I have XYZ to do for the directors.’ or you go to the directors who make requests and say ‘this is what I have on my plate for the staff I am supporting, what do you want me to drop to do this for you?’ Learn to manage your anxiety and make clear which things will be falling off the table. I would not pick up more than 20% more stuff in this situation. If everyone starts getting slow service and you make it clear that you can’t do X or that Y will take 3 days at least because of other priorities someone might decide hiring a new person would be appropriate. They won’t care if you work late and scramble and get sick getting it all done; that is what they are counting on.

      And if it doesn’t get better soon, time to look for a new position.

    4. nonymous*

      The tip I can offer is to start from a place where your day is full with the rep support. Presumably this is why you’re being paid full time, because there is 40hrs of work to be done just supporting the reps. So to make space for some of the mew work you’re taking on due to Alex’s departure, you will have to reduce that load (duh). This is a great opportunity to question why some tasks are being done. Maybe some weekly or monthly tasks can be pushed off and become quarterly?

      You can also ask that both reps and directors come to you with their tasks at a later stage. For example, if the normal routine is that you pull preliminary data and forward it to reps for review before you format it into a report, is it possible for them to pull the preliminary data? Or if you’re the person collecting/collating/processing data, would they be okay if the report was less-polished? Are there any tools (templates, semi-automated workflows) that the group relies on you (instead of learning the technology to use on their own)? For example, the directors can start booking their own travel (or at least start the trip in Concur for your review)?

      This sort of consolidation can work, but it requires everyone affected to be willing to change their ways, and that takes buy-in. Think of back in the day when execs used to have admins copy stuff. Now we all plop our own pages down on the copier and follow the instructions on the screen.

      While I agree that if everyone expects you to magically do all the tasks that it took 2 FTEs to accomplish without anything changing, they’re crazy, I also think their is opportunity to redefine your role into one of process-developer and reviewer. In a healthy org, you would have a lot of power in this situation to determine what tasks persist, and I’ve seen staff navigate these transitions into a promotion. For instance support -> admin or admin -> specialist. I encourage you to look at your duties as “Make sure essentials get done” and less “do all the work”.

  8. Lunch Breaks*

    How do you ask about lunch breaks in a new job? I am a finalist (they’re checking references) for a position that is only 1.5 miles from my house. I would like to take an hour lunch break to go home and walk my dog, but how should I go about asking this? The HR rep said official hours are 8-5, but when I met with the team, they said they normally work 9-5. I’m still new to the workforce, so I’m not sure how customary it is to ask about lunch upon hiring, or if it’s something that should be figured out once I start working….

    1. Caro in the UK*

      Definitely ask! Although I’m terrible at wording these things, so another commenter might be able to give you more specific advice. I’ve asked similar things in interivews, and been asked as an interviewer, and it was never an issue.

      It’s almost certainly not a big deal at all (or even a small deal!) But if they balk at the question, then that gives you valuable information to consider if they make you an offer. It might not be a red flag, but certainly a yellow one which you can factor into whether you accept the job.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      It depends on whether or not being able to go home for lunch to walk your dog is a deal breaker for you.

      If it is, ask now.

      If it’s not, wait until you get the job and get a feel for the office culture.

    3. fposte*

      People usually don’t ask about it until after they’re hired unless it’s important enough to be a dealbreaker for them. Sounds like it might be for you. “What kind of flexibility is there at lunchtime? I’ve found it useful to take an hour lunch and get my work done outside of that–will that work here?”

      At least in the U.S., an hour lunch is going to be unusual, but that doesn’t mean no place will have the flexibility to do it.

      1. Pontoon Pirate*

        Hmm, why do you say an hour lunch is unusual in the U.S.? Outside of retail work in my youth, all but one of my professional jobs have included a 60-minute lunch break (including a position in academia, where the full-time week was considered 37.5 hrs). Is your experience very different?

        1. Jennifer M.*

          Everywhere I’ve worked has been official hours of 9-5:30 (ie half hour unpaid for lunch) though varying levels of flex time was available (recent job I usually worked 9:45-6:45 because of traffic, now I work 7:45-4:15). But I’ve always worked in government contracting and we bill a standard 8 hour day to the government and can’t bill them for lunch so that might be it. I had one job that specifically stated in the employee manual that 30 minutes for lunch was the standard except for the receptionist who got 45 minutes. Of course, I’ve always been exempt so no one was particularly checking on my time if I was getting all my work done.

        2. fposte*

          Yup. I could take an hour for lunch in my position, but it’s pretty unusual for people at low levels in their career in a lot of fields; the half-hour Jennifer M. mentions is much more common. And you really don’t want to be annoying people by taking an hour if your workplace isn’t an hour-lunch kind of place, so I think it’s worth checking if it’s important.

          1. Anna*

            Every office job I’ve ever had aside from the one I’m currently in has had an hour lunch. I think it’s probably more common than you assume.

            1. Future Analyst*

              Agreed. I’ve never had less than an hour for lunch, outside of working in food service back in the day.

            2. fposte*

              I’m willing to believe that! The thing is, enough people are reporting non-hour lunch restrictions that I think the OP would be taking a risk to assume that her job is one of the hour-lunch places. I don’t think it’s a particularly fraught question to ask, so I stick to advising she do that.

            3. Amber T*

              Is the one hour lunch a standard rule in white collar/office types of positions? Everyone here pretty much eats at their desks, usually working while doing so, but we have a lot of flexibility when it comes to stepping out for necessary things.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                Yes, that’s my experience too. I can do pretty much whatever, but the default is eating at my desk.

              2. a1*

                A lot of people in my office eat at their desks, BUT we do get an hour lunch. It’s just that a lot of people don’t take it for various reason – want to leave early, focused on project, brought their lunch, want to be alone (ish) in the cubicle/office, etc.

          2. nonegiven*

            My husband has a lunch hour built into his day, he doesn’t always get it at the same time every day. Sometimes he leaves and goes out, sometimes he’s out of town and has to eat out, a lot of the time he sits at his desk reading the news while eating leftovers.

        3. Liane*

          It’s not unknown IN US retail. (In)Famous Retailer automatically scheduled hourly employees for 1 hour lunches on 7-8 hour shifts. And even for parttimers, those shifts would be several times a week.

        4. Janelle*

          This is odd to me too. I have always had an hour. I started one where they said 30 mins but based on the location I couldn’t even get food in 30 mins let alone eat it. My boss really just let it be an hour or sometimes more so long as we were getting our work done. 30 mins is ridiculous to me. It isn’t even close to enough time.

        5. BenAdminGeek*

          In my industry, regularly scheduling a 60 minute lunch is fairly uncommon. Then again, most folks eat at their desk during busy times so there’s not really any lunch at all.

      2. MI Dawn*

        Where I work, we unofficially (salaried workers) get an hour for lunch (1/2 hour paid, 1/2 hour unpaid) because state law requires 2 15 minute paid breaks in the day. In many departments, the staff combines the breaks with their lunch period. The only areas that can’t do that are the hourly employees who have to take the 15 minute breaks separately from their lunch break.

        As for where you go and what you do at lunch – as long as you’re back on time, they don’t care if you go home, a restaurant, running.

      3. MicroManagered*

        Really? I’ve never had a job that considered it unusual–whether FLSA exempt or nonexempt. I’ve even had employers that required a full hour lunch for coverage reasons. This may be industry-dependent?

        I agree though. Probably not an interview-setting question unless it’s like “I absolutely need an hour so I can go to my child’s school and administer medication” or something equally deal-breaking like that.

      4. kittymommy*

        In every job I have had save for one retail position , my lunch breaks have always been an hour: clerical at medical offices, mass market retail, law firms, 501,c(3), government, etc. I can’t relaly think of anyone I know who doesn’t have an hour.

        2. Justin*

          Yeah, aside from crappy jobs earlier in my career, it’s been an hour unpaid. Always. And unless you come back drunk or something, they genuinely do not care what you do in that hour (since you’re not being paid).

        3. Mobuy*

          Teachers. We’re always the fastest eaters in any situation because we’re used to cramming our lunch, prep, talking to students, and a tiny bit of relaxing into 25 minutes!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Tell them you are confused about start times because HR said one thing and the team said another time, so you started wondering how the start time and breaks work.

    5. nonymous*

      Unless it’s a dealbreaker issue, I think it’s reasonable to ask when you start talking logistics like start date, when to show up for orientation. I assume (and suggest giving others the impression) that should you not be able to go home at lunch, you will have to coordinate with someone else (doggie daycare, sitter, neighbor, housemate) to ensure that pup gets appropriate breaks and that needs some lead time to arrange. Less than childcare, but still.

  9. New Job Guilt*

    I have been looking to leave my job for several months, and now that I’ve got a viable option, I all of a sudden have cold feet. My current job isn’t terrible: my boss is great and the benefits are decent, but there is a hour one-way commute and not enough work, so I am bored with little to nothing to do 70% of the time and I’m not learning or building on new skills. This new job would be much busier and allow me to learn a lot of new things. The benefits/pay is about the same and the commute is less than 10 minutes! All-in-all, I think it’s a good next step for me, but I can’t help but sometimes think that things aren’t really that bad here and I feel guilty because my last day would be about two weeks before a huge event that I help plan. Please tell me cold feet is normal and not some giant red flag I should listen to!

      2. Specialk9*

        Normal. Personally, I don’t feel guilt, I feel imposter syndrome. During the application and interview process, I felt confident I could do it… But after I’m committed to it, I’ll be a giant failure and never be employable again and will have to eat dog food… Then I start and realize I’m actually ok, this is doable

    2. TGIF*

      I say jump on this new job! The guilt is a common thing. My last job was one that I absolutely hated and was glad to leave but I still felt a little guilt/anxiousness about the change. It’s normal when you’re leaving a familiar environment for something new. But it sounds like the pros of the new job far outweigh your cons. Go for it!

    3. miyeritari*

      Cold feet is normal! You’re having anxiety about change because humans have anxiety about change.

      Your life will be SO much better with the shorter commute. You can do this!

    4. BlueWolf*

      Totally normal! I felt a little guilty about leaving my old job because I had a close relationship with my coworkers, and I was definitely in an integral role. However, I was looking for new challenges and opportunities, and I felt moving on was the right thing for me. You need to do what’s best for you and it sounds like the new job will be better. I’m sure your old job will get along fine without you, especially since you say you don’t have that much work anyways.

    5. Tara*

      I just went through this! I had a wonderful at my last job, and felt bad about leaving her and the support she provided. But this new job, while being a big learning curve, has definitely been the right move. I felt guilt too, but it will pass.

    6. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I have been there and experienced the same hesitation even when I knew for sure it was the right move.
      Go for the new job!

    7. anna green*

      It’s totally normal! I’m in the same boat, I’ve been looking for almost a year, and now that I actually found something, I feel completely guilty and sad that I’m leaving. But I know its for the best and its the right decision. Change can be emotional! (and I didn’t leave this current job for several years even though I wasn’t happy because I kept telling myself “things aren’t really that bad here”. which is true, but that doesn’t mean I can’t find something where i say “things are good here!”) good luck!

    8. Amadeo*

      I had this problem too, when I left my last job for this one. I knew the department I was working for would lose the position entire when I left, I loved the people I worked with (for the most part, it was a university department populated by some faculty. There’s always one…) and had some pretty doggone good benefits in the shape of great health insurance and free tuition.

      My current job offered me similar benefits that weren’t quite as generous, but still pretty good and the salary was a $10k raise from what I was making. I hemmed and hawed about it, feeling guilty, until my brother nearly hit me over the head going ‘what is wrong with you, take the job!’

    9. stitchinthyme*

      Totally normal. Change is hard, and changing jobs is especially stressful — you’re spending a significant chunk of your waking hours there, and you won’t know how that will turn out until you get there. Unfortunately, it’s way too easy to think, “Better the devil I know” and stay in a bad job situation because of fear of change. (I know you said yours isn’t bad, but from your description it doesn’t sound great, either.)

      The worst that could happen is you hate the new or they don’t like you. In that case, you move on. It’s a job, not a marriage. Even if you got fired, people bounce back from that all the time. You learn from the experience and get on with your life.

      About guilt: as Alison has said many times on here, people leave jobs all the time; it’s part of the reality of doing business. No one is completely indispensable, and they’ll get along without you. I always look at it this way when I’ve felt guilt about leaving a company: if they decided that cutting my position was better for their bottom line, they’d do it without hesitation; therefore, I’m not going to feel guilty if I leave. I *do* try to make the transition as easy on my coworkers and supervisors as possible, of course, because I do feel some guilt about leaving them in the lurch, but I know that even if they have a rough time at first, they’ll deal with it and move on.

    10. Librarygirl*

      It’s so normal. I did that with my last job change. It wasn’t the greatest job but it wasn’t the worst and I was terrified to leave it. I was so scared, I posted in here in a total panic. Alison and others helped me realize it was just nerves. I felt like a prisoner who so comfortable in their cell they don’t notice the door is open.
      If it helps at all, I’m very glad I took the new job. It’s a challenge but I’ve grown and learned so much.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        My last job wasn’t terrible, but it wasn’t great either. I spent so much time complaining about it to my husband that he was getting sick of it — we both subscribe to the philosophy that it’s annoying to complain endlessly about something that’s in your power to change. So I finally took the plunge and found something else, and left despite the massive guilt trip from my boss…and I am *so* much happier at my current place! (Been here 4 years now.)

        I have also left at least one “okay” job for a really horrible one. I realized within a couple of months that I hated the new place, so I started looking. I was there about four months total, and liked my next job much better. If you hate your new job, you are under no obligation to stay. (With the caveat, of course, that you don’t want to job-hop TOO much…but I’d think most employers would forgive one or two quick hops if you have good reasons.)

    11. MicroManagered*

      I heard it called “graduation goggles” once. Like, when you’re about to graduate high school and suddenly everything feels nostalgic and wistful. Even when getting away from some decidedly toxic workplaces, I’ve felt it. Totally normal.

    12. Trout 'Waver*

      I remember reading about a study* that measured happiness awhile ago. The number one predictor of happiness in general was length of commute, with shorter being better. It was more consistent than family, salary, hobbies, religion, or anything else.

      *I wish I still had a link to it.

    13. Stop That Goat*

      I’ve been there! When I left my last employer, I actually cried in the car on the way home because of all the mixed feelings about it.

      In the end, it was definitely the right decision (for me) and one that I should have made years before. Good luck on your new job!

    14. MissDisplaced*

      It’s normal!
      Remember, you began looking for a reason. The 1 hour commute alone would be a deal breaker for a lot of people, especially if something closer came up. As they say… it’s not personal, it’s business.

  10. Weirdornotweird*

    Is it weird or not weird to tell your staff (10-15 people) at a regular meeting that you’re bringing up a topic of discussion and no one is allowed to leave the room until every single person has contributed an original idea to the topic of discussion? Is it weird or not weird to do that at pretty much every regular meeting?

    1. all aboard the anon train*

      That’s pretty weird and also bound to create an awful atmosphere full of resentment. I don’t like being forced to speak if I truly have nothing to contribute, and I’m sure others feel the same way.

    2. Squeeble*

      Weird and annoying and probably not generating whatever results the manager (or whoever’s asking) is looking for.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It’s super annoying to have to come up with ideas on the fly. If you want to solicit original ideas, give your employees prep time to think about it.

      1. Weirdornotweird*

        So how do you go about telling the person doing this that it’s annoying to a.) try to come up with good ideas on the fly and b.) be annoyed at the time wasted when people invariably just sit there for as long as possible not answering/say something not useful just to get out of the room.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I would approach them outside of one of these meetings and ask if they could start providing an agenda at least 24 hours prior to the meeting, especially if they would like team members to contribute new ideas, to give people time to brainstorm. Frame it as making the meeting more efficient because everyone will come prepared to present their ideas.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          So if people suggest an idea can they leave and not wait for the others? /joking, sort of.

          I have been hostage to these discussions myself. What happened was people ran out of things to say and just said, “I have nothing to add.” We can’t make people come up with something when they have nothing.
          Personally, I have used:
          “You will have to come back to me, because my thought was the same one Bob had and now I need to think of something else.”
          “Well, my thought on this one is ideal world stuff and not applicable to our setting. [Launch into useless idea.]
          “Well there really seems to be just the three options here and I don’t have anything else to add.”

          I said these things right in the meeting , because no private conversation could fully describe the uselessness of holding people in a room indefinitely. Sometimes people learn by living the real life exercise.

        3. nonegiven*

          Make up weird stuff, like how every one should be working on developing their telekinesis technique. If everyone starts competing for most bizarre unusable idea, maybe she’ll take a hint.

    4. Emily S.*

      Alison recently covered this in a post – but I can’t find it. The letter was written by someone who was working under a manager who did this.

      She said that managers shouldn’t force every person to contribute a new idea in a meeting.

      So yes – not just weird, but unfair.

    5. Louise*

      Yeah, I think that’s weird and also not really how you treat adults. And I know for me at least, I’m a bit of a slow processor when in comes to taking in information and then spitting out ideas. I would have a really hard time with this, especially if materials on the topic weren’t sent out ahead of time.

    7. 42*

      >>…and no one is allowed to leave the room until…<<

      That's weird and that's also the definition of a hostage. I don't take well to someone telling me I'm not allowed to leave a room.

    8. LCL*

      It’s not the concept, it’s how it’s presented that’s annoying. Making sure to call on everyone in a meeting so they have at least minimal input on a topic is the way to do this. Telling them they can’t leave the room is treating them like naughty schoolchildren. And yeah, call on everyone including the quiet ones who usually don’t speak up. You should lead the quiet ones a little, and end with the offer to send them an email with further information.

    9. Artemesia*

      If people not participating is a problem that needs solving, the leader needs to be reflecting on what is going on to discourage contributions. If you want to use a structural method to encourage the habit of contributing, then perhaps contact people ahead of time and ask them to come prepared to make a suggestion about how to deal with X. Or contact one third of the people before each meeting with that request. Something like this might help get the ball rolling, but it is important to think about why the norm is to not participate. Often it is because the leader sucks all the air out of the room or there are punishments for participating. It doesn’t take many ‘ya, but we tried that and it didn’t work’ comments to shut people up.

      1. Weirdornotweird*

        I think the problem lies in the fact that there are typically always like 6 good ideas but 12 people in the meeting. So six people are usually quick to grab those possible answers, and then maybe 2 people come up with some real out of the box answers, and then four people are left with nothing, either because they weren’t fast enough to come up with the 6 or creative enough to come up with something else. People do participate, it’s just that the leader wants 100% participation and that’s tough to achieve when there are a finite number of possibilities and/or everyone in the room isn’t super creative.

        1. nonymous*

          Why does it need to be a new original idea with the last four? If there are 6 good ideas the next set of staff will be participating if they’re debating the merits (presumably the team will only implement the top one or two), or demonstrating that a particular idea will likely have greater adoption.

          1. Weirdornotweird*

            Because the leader doesn’t want a debate on the merits. The leader wants a laundry list of ideas, and they all need to be different. You could offer very useful information about an idea someone else mentioned, but you also have to come up with your own idea.

    11. Mike C.*

      So what happens if not everyone can’t come up with a unique idea? That’s a stupid expectation. What happens when you’re called on last?

      1. Weirdornotweird*

        Everyone has to say something, so people end up offering terrible answers. They know they’re terrible answers. But an answer means we can move on, so they’re pretty much expected at this point.

    12. Claire*

      Echoing what everyone here is saying about it being weird, and also you could be setting yourself up for a false imprisonment tort (a situation very similar to this was used on one of my torts exams)

    14. Nico m*

      The solution is:

      Everybody prepares for the long haul (empty bladders, blood sugar topped up).

      Then nobody volunteers an idea.

      And wait.

    15. Observer*

      The boss is an idiot. Full stop. This is a good way to demotivate people. If this is happening at weekly, or even monthly meetings, he’s likely to start losing his best performers, because it’s time wasting and extremely disrespectful. And it’s going to burn whatever good will he has with the people who have the most options.

      He needs to provide an agenda at least one full workday in advance. He needs to STOP treating people like naughty children and hostages. And he needs to recalibrate his expectations. Expecting each person to come up with a new idea each time is a sure fire recipe for NOT getting as many good ideas as you can get, since people are going to stop trying to come up with anything reasonable. The first new thing is what’s going to come out of their mouth, even if there really are better things to suggest.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Comments with links in them go to moderation until I release them. It looks like you submitted yours several times to try to get it to go through (and thus it showed up here twice); it’s better to avoid doing that and wait for them to be released from moderation.

      1. Regretting my new job part 2*

        My apologies!! It was a very long, trying week—as you might imagine. Hope you have a lovely weekend, and sorry again for spamming that comment!

  12. Foreign Octopus*

    Bit of a frustrating experience with my former employer this week.

    I decided not to renew my teaching contract in the middle of June and informed her then. I clearly stated that August would be the last time I would be available to teach her students. She came to me and asked me to continue for one more month with one student (4hrs for the month) and I agreed but said I had to stop in September. Cut to Wednesday this week and I send her a text message to remind her that my last lesson with the student was the next morning. She comes back and asks me for another lesson next week.

    I know one hour isn’t a lot and I could have done it but I was so frustrated at being asked that I said no. My schedule has been very complicated with these lessons and I felt annoyed that despite giving her three months notice (the last teacher who left gave her one week’s notice in the middle of the academic year), she still hadn’t gotten everything into place. I know that my turning it down put her into a difficult position but, at this point, I felt that I had been more than flexible and accommodating for her and so I had to say no for my peace of mind more than anything.

    She also has yet to pay me for the month (she normally does it on the last day of teaching but she wasn’t there when I left) so there’s that to sort out next week.

    *Sigh*

    2. Amber T*

      That’s a big ol’ nope. And you didn’t put her in a difficult position – she’s known since June you were planning on leaving.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Rephrasing might help: “I know that her inaction on replacing me put her in a difficult position, but I have no control over that. Therefore it is not my problem.” Glad you stood your ground!

  13. Awkwardest Turtle*

    What are some good verbs for an achievements-based resume? Beside for “managed”, “implemented”, and “improved”?

    Related question – if one of my achievements was a group effort (I was on a committee to update our custom software) how would I indicate that on the resume?

        1. Artemesia*

          to me ‘championed’ sounds like ‘I sat in the corner and said atta’boy but didn’t actually DO anything.’

    3. MuseumMusings*

      JN has some good ones, but I’d also like to add coordinated, designed, and fabricated (though this would probably be for physical objects).

        1. Not So NewReader*

          LOL. Fabricated was the word my husband used instead of “cobbed”. So some where in my mind, “fabricated” became “cobbed, but with intelligence.”

        2. MuseumMusings*

          Haha, I used to work in a museum where I did a lot with collections and exhibits. My resume is littered with phrases such as “designed and fabricated Historical Teapots of the 1600s exhibition” or “fabricated 16 chocolate, raspberry, and blueberry teapot spout mounts in a two-week span.”

          1. SoCalHR*

            True – I was about to add that if I was interviewing that person I would certainly ask what role they specifically played on the team (so AwkwardestTurtle should be ready to explain that) :-D

            1. Awkwardest Turtle*

              Luckily I actually was integral – could definitely explain it well in person, not sure how to put it briefly on the resume.

    5. SophieChotek*

      secured (i.e. secured funding/grant) perhaps?

      there must be some good short way to say like “brought on/signed on X new clients/vendors”…? (if that is something you might need)…

    7. Five after Midnight*

      directed, coordinated, revised, implemented, led, project-managed, developed, delivered, prepared, built, appointed to, participated, challenged, initiated, completed, owned, shortened, guided, supported, conducted, created, standardized, wrote, interacted, redesigned, automated.
      These are all from my current resume in the order they appear excluding repetitions. Good luck!

  14. Regretting my new job part 2*

    Okay here’s my real question!

    I wrote in last week about regretting my new job that I’d only been at for six weeks. Since then, I’ve actually been offered a new position elsewhere with more flexibility (though with about the same number of hours overall, which is fine) and I will more than likely be putting in my notice today.

    When y’all have left jobs in a short amount of time (this is the end of my seventh week), how have you phrased your notice? My plan is to go in to my boss explaining that I’m unhappy, that I’ve given the job a good faith effort and I don’t feel that it’s for me, and that I wanted to be upfront about that sooner rather than later. I will give her a chance to address the concerns that I have but I don’t think she will because if she wasn’t willing to before I started then I doubt she will now. (She actually just told me like an hour ago that my few-days-a-week walks to get coffee—25 minutes tops—had to stop. So I’m not hopeful for anything else.) And they won’t change the whole corporate clock in and out policy just for me, certainly.

    I am just dreading the guilt trip I’m gonna get because when I was offered this job they said they knew this position wasn’t exactly what I wanted and that they didn’t want me to just take this job for the sake of taking a job and then leave in a few months. And that’s exactly what I’m doing. I honestly underestimated how miserable I would be in a job I’m not passionate about with hours that I hate. My mistake, but I do feel like I’m kind of screwing them over (even though honestly I feel like they screwed me over) so it’s hard for me to not feel guilty. How would you all handle this conversation?

    1. Eowyn*

      I’ve done a similar thing before (left a job after 8 weeks) and I just said something like “another opportunity unexpectedly dropped into my lap and I have to take it”. These things happen and yeah your boss might be frustrated, but you can’t manage her feelings for her. Try not to let the guilt get to you, you did give it a good faith effort after all. Just think that after an uncomfortable five minute conversation and two-week notice period, you’ll most likely never work with her again anyway!

    2. Wordy Nerd*

      Do you have to tell them the truth about why you’re leaving? Honestly, I’d just say something like “This new position fell in my lap and I couldn’t turn it down” as opposed to explaining problems. If you get into explaining, they might assume that if they fix the problems then you’ll stay.

      1. Regretting my new job part 2*

        Admittedly, they would have to fix a LOT for me to stay. But I also want them to be aware that their shitty policies result in people leaving. But I guess I don’t owe them that.

        1. Eowyn*

          I honestly wouldn’t bother doing that, but if you wanted to, I would do it in an exit interview and not when you resign. Do you think they’d even be receptive to the feedback?

        2. WellRed*

          I personally am a big fan of letting companies know they have crappy policies. Not letting a salaried employee take a few breaks to walk/get coffee? WTF?

          1. Gaia*

            I mean, it isn’t as if they said the OP cannot go and get coffee. They said an extra 25 minute break 3x a week wasn’t reasonable.

        3. Naruto*

          You don’t owe them that, and if they don’t ask, I think it’s very unlikely that the message will get through. Unless they have a trend of people they hire only lasting a few weeks, they’re going to think the problem is you, not them.

      2. The Cosmic Avenger*

        I agree; enumerating the problems means that the boss will probably either promise to solve them or “explain” why you’re wrong, and they’re not actually problems. And I assume you’ve mentioned them before, Regretting, or they’re things that seem like common sense to you, so it should not take the threat of you leaving for them to want to change them if they agreed with your assessment.

        But do think of some verbiage of how you’re sorry that this didn’t work out, or that you didn’t realize it was such a bad fit — something to acknowledge that this is a (minor) violation of the job-hopping norm. You have good reasons, and it’s probably best for you and your employer that they find someone else, but they don’t necessarily need to hear that part right now. Some contrition for the problems this will cause might help smooth things over.

        Or maybe that’s just me, I’m one of those people who apologizes way too much.

    3. fposte*

      By resisting the temptation to explain :-). I was going to say that you should think of this as a business transaction, but maybe romance is a better fit. “It’s not working out for me; I’m sorry. I’m sure you’ll find somebody great.”

      If you’re this unhappy about a bunch of stuff, there’s really not much point in trying to get improvements. In both business and romance.

    4. Regretting my new job part 2*

      Well, I did it. I got the guilt trip I expected (“you told me you wouldn’t do this, you said you’d give it the old college try”) and I said I am disappointed too, but that the job is literally making me ill and I’ve been getting migraines almost constantly. They made me close out everything this afternoon so as of 3pm I am sitting at home enjoying some toast so all in all it went okay. The HR guy said I could reach out to him if I ever wanted to work at a place owned by this company again since I wasn’t leaving on bad terms, so even though I don’t really like the company, that was comforting to hear. I really am going to miss my coworkers though. They at least made the days somewhat bearable. But they all told me to keep in touch and seemed sincere, so it’s all good.

      Thank you everyone for your help and encouragement. It is so appreciated and I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders. :) Now off to the weekend!

      1. Stop That Goat*

        Well, too bad that you got the guilt trip. I seriously doubt they would have kept you if it wasn’t working out for them so I wouldn’t feel any guilt about this at all. It didn’t work out. It happens and you and the company will likely be better off in the long run if it wasn’t a good fit. Good luck!!

  15. NK*

    Does anyone who is not naturally super-organized have tips for staying organized? I’ve read all the organizational tips, and especially love the AAM ask the readers post on organization. My issue is that I have a hard time actually sticking to a system. I am now in a job that requires being on top of a ton of details. I am buried in emails with to-dos and action items from meetings and conversations. I’ve tried flagging emails, bullet journals, etc, but I have such a hard time sticking with anything. Would love to hear tips from any naturally disorganized people who have found ways to get themselves to stick to something!

    1. Blue*

      I like the “Mindful” app (extension?) for chrome. It’s a very simple to-do list checkbox. It’s really good for keeping everything in one place. I use it to keep a simple list of the projects I’m working on, and then under each project I have sub-bullets of the things I have to do/deadlines, etc. I think it works for me because it’s not complicated. You still might have to dig through your emails for the action item, or details of a conversation, but at least the list is there to remind you of that task that needs to be done.

      Good luck! organization isn’t my forte either.

    2. LucyUK*

      For me, sticking doesn’t work at all and I find I naturally switch between a couple of systems (primarily post its on my desk, or a written to-do list, or a typed-up to-do list in my emails).

      As soon as one of them goes stale and doesn’t feel like “the real list” any more (usually because I haven’t been strict about breaking down tasks, or because I start using the current list as a hybrid of important-do-now stuff and long-term backlog/nice-to-have stuff), I capture the most important stuff to actually get done soon in a different list type and then roll with that until that one goes stale.

      I find it hard to keep disciplined about using one type of list well, and somehow manage to not confuse myself by switching every so often.

    3. Awkwardest Turtle*

      If you haven’t tried it, are you able to block off time each day for organizing? Personally I find it difficult to stick to a system as well because i just forget to use it day-to-day. The calendar reminds me that it’s time to re-vamp the to-do list and then I’m reminded of all the things I’d forgotten to do.

      1. NK*

        I think this is what it’s going to come down to for me – just setting aside time daily to get caught up. I’ve tried some of the apps people suggested below, and they’re cool and all, but they’re only as good as the data that I put in them.

        1. Awkwardest Turtle*

          Exactly. But it helps if you find what you think works best for you and stick to it.

          Personally, I just use a word document where I list all my projects, with all my action items bolded. Every few days I go through and update what’s happening with that project, any new action items, and deal with anything I forgot to do. What I like about the word doc is that if I find it’s not working I can change it up (e.g. start color coding/alphabetizing, whatever).

          Also I found it really tough to start a new system because there’s just so much going on. If you feel this way, don’t feel like you need to organize everything at once – just add them as they pop up on your radar.

          Also a big fan of the “categories” in Outlook so you can easily find all emails related to a specific task. I struggle with folders.

        2. Princess Scrivener*

          NK, I attended Effective Edge in the fall of 2013. As an executive assistant, I had more tasks than I had minutes in the work day. I’m still using it, although I’ve moved on from a support position to a writing job, and I can’t imagine working without it. It’s all based in / around your email account, so it’s one tool. I drag any emails requiring action into a new task; if someone stops by and asks me to do something, I open a task and start taking notes while they’re talking. Every task is stored (until you delete), so it’s great for referencing historical stuff. Every morning you get a list of your tasks for that day… My email inbox has been empty for four years!

      2. LKW*

        This is what I was going to say – it doesn’t matter the method or the tool, it’s time and consistency. You have to put in time every day where your phone is off, no new emails are getting answered and you’re going through your list, your plan, whatever they may be. Start with a daily 1/2 hour at the beginning and end of the day. At the beginning of the day outline what you have to do and what your priorities are. At the end of the day , make sure whatever was completed is marked as such. File away relevant emails. Add new tasks and reprioritize for the next day. Next morning – catch up on any new emails and reprioritize if necessary.

      3. nonymous*

        +++ I find it helpful at the end of the day to figure out what tomorrow me needs to do to keep on track with whatever I’m juggling. I treat it like if I was delegating to the best assistant/subordinate ever. That’s to keep the day on track. To keep a project on track, I try to work on tasks in discrete blocks within that project. So I don’t write an update email while I’m placing the order for additional materials, I do one then the other. Once I finish a task then I check that there’s clear documentation (sometimes it’s just a TODO note for future me, sometimes it’s updating the group) for what’s next with any deadlines.

        1. Awkwardest Turtle*

          I need to get better about prioritizing for “tomorrow me” – and to a larger extent “Monday me”. I feel like every time I come in on Monday I have to start from scratch, especially after a particularly eventful weekend. When I do remember to do it is so so so helpful.

    4. Professional Shopper*

      I can never pick a good system either–but I do set aside 5 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes at the end of my day to update & review my work.

      I usually end up consolidating all my day’s notes into one list or calendar. then in the morning, I look at the list again, and plan out the day. The bookends of time help me more than any particular system.

    5. SoCalHR*

      I’ve been really happy with Wunderlist – I can see it on my phone and my computer which helps. Also there is various lists you can make that I use to categorize my work (I wear a LOT of hats). The best thing I did was add a “waiting on/follow up” list where I can drag items to once I’ve done my part on something and am waiting for a response. That way it doesn’t get lost but I know its not currently my responsibility. You could do that with email folders too if that works better for you.

      you’re going to stick with something that works for you, so it sounds like you haven’t quite found what that is yet.

    6. Tara*

      I just started using Trello. I like that you have one “card” for each task, and then can add comments of where you are in the process, and attach documents/emails to the card, so you don’t have to go through your email to find stuff. It does require you to actually engage with the system, but things don’t fall off if I make a card for each task. It’s been working well so far!

      1. Louise*

        Yes! Trello is the best! Other people can also create cards (tasks) for you. I do a lot of writing for other people in my org, and whenever someone has a project for me they just drop a card on my trello board with all the info!

        I have mine set up by week, month, quarter, and long term tasks. This helps me stay focused on the task at hand and allows me to strategize what comes next.

        I also have a daily to-do list. I sometimes struggle with executive function stuff, so it helps me to break the projects into small, manageable tasks that I can tick off each day.

        1. NK*

          I’ve tried Trello before; the issue for me is sticking with it. It’s another browser window I need to keep open all the time, and another system to input things into. It works well enough on my slower days, but I just don’t keep up with it on the crazy days. I’m also often in situations where I’m in in-person meetings where whipping out my phone or laptop to input to-do’s isn’t appropriate. I know it works well for others, it just ends up being inefficient for me.

          1. serenity*

            So if you would rather not use tech (either desktop, tablet, or phone-based), what are the kind of suggestions you are looking for? Using a notepad or something really basic?

            1. NK*

              I think part of the issue is that I have a lot of email-driven to-dos, and then to-dos that come up in meetings where I’m not always connected. So it seems like either way I’m spending a lot of time transferring tasks from one medium to another, and when things are really busy, the organization gets dropped. What I’m asking for is not so much suggestions of a specific app or cool paper notebook, but more how you stay on top of whatever system you choose (because ultimately they’re all pretty much the same).

              1. CrazyEngineerGirl*

                I think the thing is, it’s a change in mindset where the organization becomes one of your top priorities. I know it’s easy for that to be the thing that goes first, especially when we’re busy. For me it’s easy to stay organized and keep all the bits and pieces together and in the right places for later. But sitting here thinking about why that is? Only thing that I really came up with was that it’s important to me and I make it a priority. Easier said than done. Whether you do it once a day, twice a day, or every hour on the hour, maybe try rephrasing how you think of it? Take it from this THING that’s nice to do if you have time to the ONE THING that is most important because it’s what allows you to accomplish every other thing that you do later.

          2. Louise*

            That’s fair—a lot of people use trello at my org, so it’s normal to say “hey I’m going to jot this down in trello super quick” during in-person meetings.

            Something that I tell myself when I feel annoyed by the time it takes to input tasks, etc is that every minute you spend organizing, you save yourself an hour of work. I always end my days reviewing my email, checking my notes, and putting together my to do list for the next day. That way I can come in and get started working immediately with a clear head.

            1. NK*

              Yeah, I think this is going to come down to taking time out of my day, no matter how hectic, to get my action items organized and prioritized on a daily basis.

              1. Mike C.*

                Schedule this time on your calendar, same time every day. Don’t beat yourself up if you miss it or don’t do a complete job on a given day, just keep at it. Sometimes it takes a few nags from Outlook for me to stop ignoring stuff like this.

        2. atgo*

          I’ve been using Trello to make sort of a rolling to-do list. It’s not perfect, but it’s been helping a lot as my workload has been increasing. Instead of the specific week/month/quarter/long term columns like Louise mentioned, I keep things looser (works better for my messy mind).

          I have a left-most column that is “Soon,” then longer time horizons span out in additional columns to the right. I can also put due dates on specific items, leave myself comments for status updates, attach documents, links, checklists, etc.. It’s been a lifesaver.

          As I work through the “soon” column, I pull in items from the columns to the right to fill. A couple of times a week I also take a cursory pass through the other items to make sure I’m not missing anything.

      2. serenity*

        Was just coming to say the same thing! I love Trello – it’s easy to use and I love how customizable it is.

    7. DC*

      I find online/computer based apps hard to use, since they fall into out-of-sight, out-of-mind territory. I also found bullet journaling to be harder, since there was no pre-set structure and it actually made me stressed.

      So I switched to a get to work book. It’s a planner – a large one, so it’s always on my desk, so it’s always in mind, and as things come in I can put the task on the appropriate day. I would REALLY recommend checking it out- she also makes weekly pads if you don’t like the planner idea, that would let you make a to-do list per week.

      Why this works for me: One long list was hard when I couldn’t complete one task until X day because of something I was getting sent to me on that day. So being able to use the GTWB like one big weekly to-do was a lot easier, since it let me break things down.

      Happy to chat more/send photos if you like!

    8. Muriel Heslop*

      I am really disorganized by nature and my job requires a lot of paperwork, official forms and meetings. What I’ve found (through trial and error) is that keeping one spiral notebook, writing everything down in it, and just keep a running pile of notes, times, dates, deadlines, meetings and date each day as I go.

      Downside: I can’t lose the notebook or I’ll be dead. But I only have to keep up with one thing. It’s not fancy, but it works for me.

    9. LizB*

      I have accepted that I am a pen-and-paper gal through and through. I’ve used plenty of organization apps, but none ever worked, so I use a physical planner.

      I had to design my own planner, because none of the ones I could buy quiiite fit my needs. I ended up just buying some composition books that I turn into planners. (I love the brand Decomposition Books – they have fun cover designs and the pages are 100% recycled – but choose your own fave notebook.) I need a full page for each day’s to-do lists, but I also wanted month-sized calendars and week-planning spreads, and all the planners I could find would give me either month + week or month + day layouts but not all three. I also built in a section for notes at the back of the planner with numbered pages.

      One habit that has been essential for me is an end-of-day planner check. At the end of the day, I have to sit down and make sure I’ve checked off everything I accomplished, copied everything I didn’t accomplish to the next day, or crossed out anything that actually doesn’t need to get done. I’ll often start my to-do list for the next day at this time. Also, if I took notes, I’ll write the page numbers they appear on at the top of the day’s page, so if in the future I need to find my notes from the Teapot Symposium it’s super easy to find them. It took a while to build this habit but it’s been SO helpful.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I would love a to have all three as well. How did you get the monthly calendars and weekly / daily spreads into your composition books? Did you hand-draw them or make printables?

        1. LizB*

          (I don’t know if you’ll see this, but…) I hand-draw them. It’s pretty easy to draw a month calendar with just a ruler (and the benefit of lined paper), and for the weekly spread, I just divide a page into six boxes then divide the sixth box in two for Saturday/Sunday. My setup does take up a lot of space — I generally fit three months into one notebook, although I could probably fit four if I were okay having fewer notes pages.

    10. Airedale*

      I just use a Word document. It has two lists, Priority tasks and Secondary tasks. I look at it first thing in the morning and last thing at night.

      I will say, when I look back on one former position where I felt disorganized, I now realize my workload was insanely high. You can have the best system in the world, but talking with your boss to see if you some of your tasks can be delegated is worth considering.

      Good luck!

      1. Optimistic Prime*

        This is a really good point. There are some times when I feel very disorganized, but when I take a step back I realize it’s because I have way too much in my plate (or I’m herding cats. Or both). I’ve had to reluctantly accept the idea that sometimes things are going to feel a bit rushed and chaotic.

    11. Meg*

      I am also in a really detail-oriented job, and this is the system that works for me. I have a full-sized planner (Blue Sky Academic Year Weekly & Monthly), which opens up to a weekly spread, with ample space for each day. All of my to-dos go into this planner, ASAP, and it’s only for to-dos. (Project notes, meeting notes, etc., go in other notebooks, and I use an online calendar for meetings.) In the Saturday slot, I write down the big projects for the week, e.g., board presentation, quarterly report. In the Sunday slot, I write down the big projects that are getting pushed to *next* week. And then each day is full of all the to-dos, no matter how small. Like: email assistant to schedule that meeting, spend an hour sketching this report.

      All of my to dos come through email, too, but using your inbox as a to-do list is really bad practice, IMO. As soon as you see a to-do in an email, immediately transfer it to your planner: it’s either a small to-do that you can assign to a day, or it’s a large project that you can add to the “this week” or “next week” list (and then later break it down into small tasks). If you’re in a spot where you don’t have your planner, read the email and then mark it as unread so you’ll see it when you’re back at your desk.

      At the end of each day, I write my to-do list for the following day, referencing my calendar and my list of projects for the week. I review it at the beginning of the day, too, to get myself situated. It only takes a few minutes, though a little longer on Friday afternoons and Monday mornings. I’ve tried a LOT of systems, and this is simple and really works well for me!

    12. Optimistic Prime*

      I am not naturally organized at all and people frequently tell me how organized I am, so I feel like my system must work lol:

      -I have a weekly planner that each Monday I take about 15 minutes filling out to look at my week. It’s broken into 3 squares for each day. The top square I list all my meetings for each day, so I know roughly what meetings I have and when things are due. The middle square I write a high-level description of what I need to do each of those days – deliverables and pieces that aren’t meetings. (The bottom square I list personal commitments, partially so I remember and partially so I don’t think “Oh I can just finish this at home” when I have a concert to go to or a happy hour or something.)

      -Then every day or every other day I have a written to do list and I break down my higher-level deliverables into smaller pieces that I need to get done. Who do I need to mail, who do I need to call, what do I need to write…I make these small pieces because checking them off is motivating and satisfying for me. This takes me about 5 minutes every day.

      -I have one electronic to do list. The electronic one is for “let me write this down right now because I will forget it 2 minutes later.” It isn’t organized in any particular order, but I can set a reminder on it to ping me later.

      In my inbox I have a sub box called “NEEDS ACTION ***”. Emails that I can’t immediately respond to, but that I need to respond to, I stick in this box. Then I have a designated time every day that I go in that box and respond to those/do what I need to do there. (Flagging doesn’t really work that well for me so this is what I do instead).

      -I noticed that sometimes as I was taking notes in meetings I would end up with a to-do list but it was hard for me to find the action items in my notes, so I bought a notebook that has a to-do list built in on 1/3 of the page, every other page. Then when I’m taking notes in a meeting (I write my notes by hand on paper) I can add the to-dos on the side of the notebook and know exactly where to find my action items! It was very expensive and I would not buy it again, but I like the layout and I’ll be trying to find another option that has a similar layout for less money. (Or if you are less picky about your notebooks than me, you can easily create your own simply by using a straightedge or ruler to draw a vertical line to separate 1/3 of the edge of the page from the rest, then add some checkboxes every other line.)

    13. wingcolor*

      So, what works for me to stay organized is to have a few different systems, and know that while no single system will cover everything, taken together, nothing will fall through the cracks.

      So first, I have electronic reminders. We use outlook, and I have a number of recurring tasks set up—things that need to be done monthly, weekly, daily, etc. And they all have reminders set up, so that the little reminder pane will pop up and annoy me.

      As well, in Outlook, you can drag emails onto the tasks icon, and it will create a task for you. You can set the due date, and again, set a reminder. I do this for any random emailed requests that come in that I can’t get to right away. (You can also drag emails onto the calendar icon if something needs to be done at a specific date and time. Super handy!)

      I also keep a written daily to do list in a small notebook. Sometimes I will set up an Outlook task and then write it in my notebook as well, but I don’t worry if something doesn’t get written in my notebook as long as I know I have a task for it, and vice versa.

      And finally, because we use Slack at work, if I ever need to make a note of something or remind myself to do something when I’m away from my desk/computer, I open the Slack app on my phone and use its reminder feature to make a note to myself that will pop up at approximately the next time I’m at my desk. That covers things that occur to me when I’m on the go, or when I can’t stop my brain from thinking about everything that needs to get done the next day when I’m trying to go to sleep at night.

    14. Looc64*

      I’ve also had trouble with picking out a good organization system and sticking with it. What’s currently working ok for me is to use those electronic post it notes that you can put on your desktop and the notes app on my phone. The good thing about this sustem is that it doesn’t require setting things up or much maintenance.

    16. samgarden*

      I am the least organised person ever. My memory is awful, I procrastinate, and I get bored by things super easily. I have a full-time office job, a home business, and I am studying for a uni degree. As a combo, it is The Worst.
      So this is what works best for me. It’s not foolproof, but it’s easy enough to implement and stick to.

      -Hard-copy notebook. ‘Normal’ pages (right-hand side) are a running to-do list. ‘Back’ pages (left) are notes / whatever. I colour-code my list with a highlighter dot beside each one, and as I complete them I cross them out. When I no longer need a note, I scribble it out. I know that everything in the book is current, and I put EVERYTHING in there, e.g. email Wakeen re: teapots, buy Jane a birthday present, finish Llama assignment – due 30 October. It sits on my office desk at all times.
      -Email. I use Outlook at home and at work. I have literally seven everyday work accounts, two uni accounts, and a couple of personal ones. Outlook keeps them all nicely in one place. I set up folders for each account, and once an email has been actioned, I mark it as read and drag it into the relevant folder. Anything that hasn’t been actioned sits as unread in my inbox. I love an empty inbox, so this motivates me to get as much done as I can in this regard. I also use coloured categories for a few specific tasks, and have set up templates for emails that I send regularly. Can I just say that I hate email flags and they don’t work for me. I ditched the Outlook tasks pane aaaages ago.
      -Calendar. I use my Outlook calendar for an overview of holidays and work schedules. My husband works away, and we have his kids stay with us on school holidays- this way I can easily see where dates overlap and so forth. I also have work meetings and social events in there. I set up colour categories for everything so I can see what’s what. As soon as I have something to go in the calendar, it goes in. No procrastination, otherwise I WILL forget. It takes one minute, and saves me having my head bitten off by whoever I forgot about. It’s all synced with my phone, so no excuses to not chuck an appointment or reminder in there straight away.
      -OneNote. My home business is website design. Every time I acquire a new client I set up a OneNote notebook for their stuff, and dump all relevant info in there. It’s not neat or pretty, but it’s a one-stop shop for everything from HEX codes to fonts to email addresses to screenshots of inspo to quotes to deadlines… literally everything. You can paste images and emails and documents and all sorts of stuff in there, and again it syncs to other devices so if for example I am at the airport and need to send someone their FTP details I can just go in and send them to them.
      -LastPass. I just started using it. Oh my lord… use it! I don’t have to remember any logins, ever. Save your brainspace for better stuff.
      -Automation. I set up direct debits for bills and accounts. I schedule emails for appropriate times. Again, save your brainspace. Let the machines do the work!
      -Files and folders. DO NOT SAVE ANYTHING ON YOUR DESKTOP. Take a few seconds to name your files properly when you save them, and put them in appropriate folders. Future NK will thank you. I end up flustered when my e-filing is a mess. A stitch in time, and all that jazz.
      -Housekeeping. Every now and then, when I feel overwhelmed or whatever, I will give myself some time to avoid responsibilities and just sort myself out. I will pick through and archive any emails from over a month ago, put my old papers in the recycle bin, go through my ‘in’ tray and put things in order of priority, shift old tasks on my to-do-list to the newest page so they don’ get left behind… that kinda thing. It helps me feel more on top of things, and reminds me that I am not actually as swamped as I feel.

      It took me ages to settle on this level of simplicity. The easier you make it for yourself, the more you stick to it. I still balls up all the time, but this is by far my best system.

  16. lemonwater*

    Question re: adding a personal trip to a work trip, or even just staying an extra day or two in a fun work trip destination. I’ve done this a lot, and it’s never caused issues, but I was wondering how other people handle reimbursements for the boundary between work and personal? My workplace doesn’t do per diem, so I always need to submit receipts for reimbursement.

    Example: Suppose I am in city A for work, and if I were to go home right after my work responsibilities were done, I would fly home on Friday, and work would reimburse my lunch and dinner since it takes me all day to fly home, and they would reimburse my cab home from the airport. Suppose now I decide to stay in city A until Saturday, so Friday is “time to explore”. Would you still claim Friday lunch/dinner and a cab home on Saturday?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would claim the cab home on Saturday (you would have needed a cab home anyway) but not the meals on Friday. That would just make me feel more comfortable with the whole thing, especially since I would be getting lunch and dinner in places I wanted to, not, say, close to the airport because of flights. Once the “I’m-on-vacation-and-enjoying-myself” starts, my non-travel reimbursement claims end. Other people might feel differently, of course, but that’s my personal line.

      1. Artemesia*

        This is what I have done; as soon as the vacation starts, e.g. Friday in this example, the meals etc are on me. My best ‘win’ was a few years ago when I was flown to Hawaii to speak and they rented me a car so I drove myself to and from the airport and to the conference center etc. I brought my husband along and he could stay in my room without added cost, and then when we continued for 8 days of vacation, I was able to keep the car and just pay the rental cost above the 3 days they paid for. It worked out so that the 3 day cost was about half of the cost of the whole 11 days and so they were subsidizing the car without it costing them more. (they of course saved money on the airfare since my 11 day airfair span was cheaper than flying in and out in 3 days without a Saturday over.)

    2. A Beth*

      I say claim them! It’s essentially treating them as two separate trips; you just happened to not have to fly back out for the personal leg.

    3. Beatrice*

      I would claim meals for the day I traveled back. You’re taking a vacation day in the middle of a work trip, essentially. You have Friday off, so your stuff on Friday isn’t expensable. When you begin traveling back on Saturday, you’re resuming work, and your meals that day should be reimbursed, as they would be if you’d traveled back on Friday.

    5. The IT Manager*

      I did it recently. It was kind of a pain, but basically I looked at what my trip would have been without the personal stuff and didn’t count extra. I counted any travel or meals during travel (airport) as reimbursable. But once I got to the hotel that night (a few days early) I was on vacation and it was all my cost. And then 3 nights later, the night before my conference started the reimbursable expenses started again because I was there for work.

      So I would not claim Friday lunch or dinner, but I would claim Saturday breakfast, lunch, (assuming you spend Saturday traveling and not site seeing) and cab as reimbursable. It’s the same # of meals – just different ones.

    6. SophieChotek*

      I am doing this next week. I am claiming the hotel (for the nights I was there for the event). But since I could have flown out Saturday, but am choosing to stay Sat/Sun night so I can see more of the city, I will not claim Sat/Sun.

      Will claim all meals up through Saturday. (Even if I flew out Saturday I would still have to eat.)

      Will claim rides to/from airport on both ends, so those were necessary regardless.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Where I work, our policy would be to pay for anything involved with getting you home. So the cab ride home on Saturday– yes. The meals on Friday –no. Friday is your non-business day so any expenses that day would not be eligible for reimbursement and that would include the hotel. We would not reimburse for Friday night’s stay.

  17. Blue Anne*

    Funny work thing: I took a “sick” day yesterday for my mental health. I said, truthfully, that I was feeling hit by a truck because of medication changes. I did not specify physical or mental medication. (It’s completely mental.)

    Came back in today, feeling a lot better. Boss says “You still look a little rough, Anne.”

    Thanks man. Good talk.

    Ha!

      1. Blue Anne*

        Luckily, I just think it’s hilarious and a result of not wearing any makeup. Now I know how to look sick to my boss…

        1. Chaordic One*

          I have this kind of awful dark orange colored top and if I wear it with no makeup everything thinks I look pale and sick. If I ever need a mental health day I’ll wear that top the day before and/or after.

      1. Camellia*

        Yeah, stress tends to show on our face and body more than we might like to admit. In your place I might have considered taking today also, for a four-day weekend.

        1. Blue Anne*

          I was very tempted, but I knew I had an urgent tax notice for a client sitting on my desk here. Too damn dedicated. :)

  18. Savannnah*

    Last week I wrote about how I gave my boss 7 months’ notice for a February departure and he hasn’t done anything with that information yet- even though it’s a highly specialized position within a small field. I emailed him this week to ask if he had notified anyone above him or discussed with our HR dept. He told me he didn’t remember that I told him about leaving and that he doesn’t want to tell anyone until budget season is over, which is in December. I understand its not my job to follow up but I really want to go over his head on this one because I am spearheading a 5 year merger which is launching in Jan and I am unsure how to proceed. I work closely with grandboss, who is very prominent in our field, on the merger and it is ultimately his deliverable.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you owe it to grandboss to give him a heads up if you are directly reporting to him on that specific project.

      1. anon because*

        I’m inclined to agree, if you’re pretty sure you won’t be pushed out earlier by doing so, but you might want to give your boss a heads-up first. Sounds like your boss is trying to protect his budget/headcount, and likely from your position you won’t know all the impacts of sharing the information sooner. Aim to walk out with a good recommendation from both boss and grandboss, and you will likely be in good stead.

        1. Savannnah*

          I have no fear of being pushed out because my field is so specialized and because our company is located in an unsexy city. I’m feeling like I have to tell grandboss soon and would have liked to give him 4-5 months notice at least as this project was what he was hired on to do and I have worked with the company we are merging with for many years prior to my position at my current company. My position could stay vacant for 6+ months but you are right in that I don’t know what disclosing that info before budgets are final will do though!

    2. Anono-me*

      I would email your direct boss and explain that due to all the work that you will be doing directly with Grand Boss on the big important 5 year merger that you feel you need to share youe Feb. 2018 resignation information with Grand Boss. You and Grand Boss will be talking about Big Merger stuff that will be happening in March and further down the road. The fact that you will no longer be at the company in March will come up at some point.
      I would also try to work in some mention of the fact that you gave notice back in July.

      I am suggesting emailing, both to document that you have given a very generous notice period and to maybe make it feel more ‘real’ for your regular boss.

    3. TCO*

      Could you play dumb on this one? Tell your Grandboss, “You’ve probably already heard from Boss that I’ll be leaving in February. Since you and I working so closely together on this project, I want to make sure that you and I are also communicating directly about my departure, and not just through Boss, as it pertains to the transition plan for this project. How would you like to handle that planning process?”

      2. Cedrus Libani*

        Might have been the best way to handle it before the latest conversation with Boss, but now that she’s been directly told to keep her mouth shut until December, I think it’ll come off as insubordination. I like Anono-me’s method better.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        I think that as the OP has just asked the boss about it, she now can’t get away with playing dumb.

    4. Observer*

      I hope you have all of this in email.

      Talk to your boss about the need to let GrandBoss know about this. If he’s unyielding, let grandBoss know the day budget season is over, and explain that your boss explicitly ordered you to keep quiet. The issue here is that if this is a small field and your grandboss feels burned by you, it could come back to haunt you. So you need to make sure that you don’t leave the impression that you were ok leaving him in the lurch.

  19. A Beth*

    How do y’all stay involved with pet projects/causes when your role has changed? I moved to a different role in my organization about six months ago but there are still folks battling for the changes I’d like to see (all professional development-related). I’m still in a position to work on this kind of stuff but I don’t want to overstep when it doesn’t affect me as personally anymore (and when it only tangentially relates to my new job) and I hate to drop it altogether because it really is important to me, for myself and my peers and the folks who will be affected in the future.

    1. Bess*

      For me, having been on both sides of this type of situation, I’d say proceed with caution, but proceed. Would your involvement be welcomed? If so, maybe there’s an advisory role you could take, based on your previous experience and knowledge. But if it’s now run by people who feel a strong sense of ownership over it (particularly if their vision is very different), it might be better to respect that boundary and let the project go. But that doesn’t quite sound like the situation (like where it’s an official project within a department that someone else now formally owns), so I don’t think a role change necessarily means your participation would be overstepping.

      If that’s the case, feeling out the project owners, or say offering yourself for input or volunteer work, etc., would likely be fine. There’s ways you can do that while being clear that you won’t be offended if they say “we’ve got it, thanks anyway.”

      1. A Beth*

        Thanks for this — I might just try to stay in the loop with the friend who is still really involved, and otherwise back off. It’s all grassroots but I can see where some people might want me to leave it to them since it won’t affect my day-to-day work life.

  20. all aboard the anon train*

    I REALLY dislike online job application platforms. I was trying to apply to one this morning and after I registered with a new account and submitted my resume, my computer froze when it tried to go onto the next screen.

    The recruiting platforms says my application is incomplete, but I was sent an immediate email thanking me for applying. There’s no way for me to actually click on my incomplete application to finish it. So I’m assuming my application won’t be looked at now because it’s marked incomplete. I really hate these types of platforms. They’re such a hassle.

    Also, I had a HR recruiter miss a phone interview for the second time yesterday. I’m so frustrated at this point in my job search I could scream.

    1. TGIF*

      I had this happen with an application. It kept saying I hadn’t filled in a section but I clearly had. There was no help email/phone number, and it didn’t help to log out and come in again. Thankfully I wasnt a job that I really wanted, just something I qualified for, so I just stopped trying to submit it. Online apps can be such a pain!

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        This was a job I was really interested in, which is extra annoying. I sometimes wonder if the people choosing these platforms for applicants have ever actually used them to see how they’re not user friendly they are.

        1. Kelly L.*

          The time it happened to me, I was merrily chugging along when…SUDDENLY, ESSAY PORTION! I took some time to think about what to write, and then could never get back in.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Urgh this has happened to me too. I hunt around for ages trying to find the thing. I like the ones that take you right to the part you didn’t fill out (or if it was more than one, they take you to the first one).

    2. WellRed*

      I tried to apply for a seasonal retail position yesterday. Got registered just fine. But when I tried to log in using the (nonclickable) link they sent me, it didn’t work. Not off to a good start.

    4. Camellia*

      Just heard that our company has purchased Taleo – after all, it’s a best-of-breed! I cringed thinking of all the negative feedback I’ve heard on it.

      I’m not on the implementation but will keep my ears open for feedback.

    5. Nant*

      I feel your pain – that happened to me recently too! Also annoying things about online applications – having to enter every qualification from high school up via a dropdown for every. single. one. /o\

      hands up for a ceremonial burning of online applications~

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        Also annoying – platforms that have surprise mini-essay questions halfway through that time out if you don’t click submit after an unspecified amount of time, and that submit your application as incomplete or reject it because you didn’t write your answer quick enough.

        Honestly, I sometimes think these platforms are designed to annoy applicants.

    6. Liane*

      Hate-hate-hate the ATS applications. Big employer here *used to* have one that was a dream for applicants. You could apply for multiple positions without having to type anything in except for a few position-specific items, it gave you auto-updates, stated clearly that you could add a cover letter to your resume, didn’t lock up, etc. They changed over to one of Those :(
      Also WHY bother to have a Resume Autofill function for job history fields if it doesn’t do that correctly and your applicants have to fix every entry? I have learned they don’t work well if you list multiple titles under the same job, but even when I use my “ATS resumes” with only the last job title, I still end up with stuff all over the place: Title for Job 1 in section for Job 2, random numbers in start date fields, only 1 field autofilled when all the info is there….

    7. The New Wanderer*

      YES. And the really galling thing is, this is what I (am qualified to) do for a living – fix awful user interfaces. Except the parents are because I don’t want to work on software if I can help it. I’ve heard from colleagues who do this work that if it’s too costly to fix, it stays “good enough” regardless of their efforts to actually improve things. Demoralizing for the end user and the folks who know how to fix it andjust want to fix it and … can’t.

  21. not so super-visor*

    Over here singing the End of the Month blues…
    It is the last day of the month for us which is always our busiest day of the month (customer driven). Despite having no call-ins for the entire week, I have 3 call-ins today. All of them claim to be too sick to come in. Then there’s the 4 people asking to leave early citing family emergencies. Per AAM, I don’t question the legitimacy of these and try to treat people like responsible adults, but this is a company-wide problem — no one wants to come in on the last day of the month. It’s always the worst when the EOM falls on a Friday or Monday. How do you overcome this? Every department feels the pinch. It causes a lack of coverage and customers not being serviced in a timely manner on a day that we’re already slammed. We don’t have work-from-home as an option.

    1. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

      Can you find some way to reward/incentivize those who DON’T call out on those days? I dunno what’s possible at your workplace, but possibly something like public recognition, treats (free donuts in the break room?), extra consideration for flexibility requests (coming in late/leaving early) on other days… something that would help the people who don’t try to call in feel that their hard work is being valued and appreciated.

      I think that an explicit reward like that would help the morale of those who don’t call out, as well as making retention a bit easier (“my boss appreciates my hard work” is definitely an incentive for a lot of people to stay in a job). Side benefit, it might also discourage those people who call out from doing so without genuinely needing to, since they’d miss out on whatever the end-of-month reward is, and quietly let them know that hey, their slacking is not going unnoticed.

      And for people where you can point to a regular pattern of calling out at the end of every month? I think that can reasonably be considered a performance issue – they’re making more work for their colleagues, and you need them to be there reliably even on busy days. If someone has a genuine recurring medical need to call out around the same time every month (and I can think of a few that could definitely qualify), that needs to be communicated clearly and arranged in advance – it’s not an excuse to call out day-of every time.

      1. Xarcady*

        A professor I had fought the good fight on attendance the day before big holidays (like the last class before Thanksgiving) by either a) giving a really easy quiz (Name one book we have read this semester. When did the War of 1812 start?) or b) giving a big hint about the final exam (There will be a question on X topic on the final.)

        Just a little reward for those who managed to show up for class. I agree with Anonymous Pterodactyl that if you can find something that most of your employees care about, attendance might increase.

        Another thought is that if the workload is predictably heavy every single last day of every month, you could look into ways of directing more resources to dealing with customers. Hiring temps, using personnel that don’t normally handle customers? I don’t know what would work in your environment. Or may figuring out a way to stagger the customers? Have half of them end the “month” in the middle of the month or something? Because if the problem is that bad that people are calling out, maybe there’s a message for management there, that something needs to be done.

    2. MMDD*

      Maybe offer an incentive of some kind? I’ll admit it sounds ridiculous to reward people just for showing up to work, but you’ve got a situation to be addressed. Say every time an employee shows up on the last day of the month four months in a row, they get an extra vacation day, something like that.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Or, order in lunch for everyone on the last day of the month? Boss-sponsored Chipotle orders are the only thing that gets me through tax season.

    3. Yorick*

      You can definitely address any patterns (so if someone often calls in on these busy days, you can ask about that and reiterate that you expect them to work those days too).

      I think you might also be able to question the legitimacy of these if they fall on a day when people might be more likely to fake, but I’m not sure how to do that well.

    4. Janelle*

      I’d do what my old company did. If someone called in sick the day before or after a holiday we had off you had to provide a doctors note. Any other sick days they didn’t ask but since so many people tried to extend their mini vacations they required it for these times.

      1. kittymommy*

        This is what my company does. It was such a widespread problem that now if you want your holiday pay say for July 4th, and you call in sick on the 3rd or the 5th, you better have a note, otherwise, no holiday pay.

        1. Stop That Goat*

          I’ve got a friend whose company does something a bit stricter. If you are out the day before/after a holiday without any previous notice, you just don’t get the holiday pay. Short of someone having a heart attack, I doubt they’d make an exception.

    5. LCL*

      I wonder if some of your workers don’t realize the affects being short staffed has on everyone else. Do you have morning briefings with the gang? We do, and I always go over what happened the previous day. If staffing affected the people left, I mention that at the meetings in a factual way. ‘Random crated the teapots for shipping. Usually Brand does that but he was out of office after 3PM.’ Let it be known that when they take unplanned leave, you personally don’t care but their coworkers are impacted.

      You are right that you can’t question this stuff too much. The frequent fliers are the bane of my existence too, but you can’t make people have ethics. It may help to tell yourself that even the most egregious of abusers of leave have real problems occur, sometimes. EG our worst offender who didn’t think to tell me that the reason he was taking a couple days of short notice unscheduled leave was because his mother DIED.

    6. nonymous*

      jumping on board the incentive train. Food (or cash cards) are nice if you have a budget for this kind of stuff. Otherwise how about EOM points which can be used for other high demand time-off days? So if you have hard limits on max no. of people who can be scheduled off for certain days due to workload, priority goes to the staff that has worked the most EOMs. Or staff with stellar EOM attendance can go home early occasionally (ideally on the clock). My current location has “off site meetings” 2-3 times/year.

      Also maybe a point system? I worked at a company that had a rolling 10 point system — iirc it was minus 1 for being late and minus 2 for unscheduled, undocumented leave. The point wasn’t to question staff about leave, but to draw a threshold when this type of leave was beyond the capacity of the org to handle with routine scheduling (and maybe the employee needed to adjust their personal life, change to a different shift or start the FMLA ball).

    7. Observer*

      Before you start making changes, you actually need to see what your real problem is. It could be that you actually have more absences on these days – and it could be that you just feel them / notice them more. So, your first step is to actually look at absence / early departure patterns. If your company has a good automated time keeping system, this could be pretty easy to pull. What you are looking for is REAL spikes in absences / early departure across the department, and what specific people are doing. If you have 3 people who always leave early and 2 who always call out, then even though the rest of the staff are not acting any different, this could make everything look much worse than it it. Also, that means you need to deal with THOSE people not make across the board changes.

  22. Programmer Rob*

    I’d like some advice and reassurance on requesting accommodations.

    I injured my knee a few months ago in a bike accident. I can walk fine, but standing for extended periods of time makes it hurt. This hasn’t been a problem at work in the past, but my department is understaffed right now and I have to do some work outside where I have to stand all day, and after that my knee is killing me for the next day or two.

    I’m the youngest person in this department so I’m self-conscious about the optics of saying that this is physically straining to me. Does anyone have suggestions on how to make it go smoothly? Thanks!

    1. Emily S.*

      I would think that a doctor’s note would help here. Sure you have some documentation of the injury?

      Maybe you could have a doctor write up something that specifically says you shouldn’t stand for any substantial length of time. That seems like the best way to handle it — just present that to your employer, and say you can’t do that anymore.

      1. Programmer Rob*

        Yeah, from what I’ve read it’s classic ADA accommodations. My company is huge and I’m sure they’re familiar with the process.

        I’m just nervous about it because I just started and I’m 26 while everyone else is in their 40s. I worry that it’ll come off as trying to get out of work (even though this did not come up in the interview or job description) and I’ll look bad and get a bad performance review or something.

        1. Emily S.*

          If you’ve got that kind of medical issue, what does it matter how old you are?

          Injuries happen to people at all ages. Surely they’ll understand that, if they have competent HR, as you suggest.

          1. LCL*

            We have way more time lost and accommodations for injury for our younger workers. Bike wrecks, car wrecks, martial arts, hiking injuries, etc. Us older folk still recreate, we just have (mostly) learned our limits.

        2. J*

          Once in a previous job, when I was the youngest person in my company, and I hadn’t yet been there for 6 months, I tripped and fell in my driveway and broke my leg. I had a somewhat physically demanding job at the time and it was really inconvenient, and I got written up for “not being helpful enough” (because I was not mobile), and I also got a lot of crap for getting injured in such a ridiculous way.

          But getting crap for it and written didn’t change the fact that I had a broken leg, it just demonstrated that they were ridiculous and a terrible place to work (I learned more about that later). I guess what I’m trying to communicate is, a reasonable employer will try to accommodate your injury as best they can. It’s in their best interest to do so, after all, so that something you do at work doesn’t make it worse and turn it into a work comp thing. If they don’t, they’re jerks.

        3. Specialk9*

          I’m old, and it wouldn’t even occur to me that you couldn’t have an injury or condition just cause you’re younger. I first got a significant sports injury at 14.

          That seems like a worry from inside your head, rather than something you’ll actually experience, unless someone is very unreasonable. This is a really normal thing.

    2. a1*

      Could you say something like “I’m recovering from an injury that makes it difficult for me to stand”? And then add something about how long you think it’ll last, even if vague “I expect to be fully recovered soon, but I’m not there yet.”

      Also, I sympathize big time. I have a similar situation with a knee injury, but I have a desk job. It’s my hobby that has me standing for long periods of time. I’ve had to cut back on it, despite loving it, because I seem to be delaying my recovery even more by suffering through the pain to have my fun.

    3. fposte*

      Do you know who you’d talk to, and what accommodation you’re looking for? Those are the specific things it would be good to have in hand. “Jane, is it possible for me to get a stool when I’m manning the fair booth? I’m still recovering from my bike wreck and the standing is a problem. I could bring my own or use the unused one in the warehouse.”

      If you’re looking to avoid that outside task entirely because it can’t be accommodated, it would be helpful to put a time frame on your problem and identify what extra work you can pick up instead to take the burden off of the co-workers that’ll be heading outside in your place.

      1. Programmer Rob*

        I know who the HR contact for my department is. They’re…not very good at getting back to emails, but something titled “Formal Request For ADA Accommodations” should get them to do something.

        I don’t think there’s any other accommodations for this duty aside doing something else entirely. Basically I work as a programmer for a megacorp that does work on both the hardware and software side. My role is supposed to be entirely software, but we’re understaffed and I’m being sent out to our other locations for hardware duty. I have to walk and stand all day for this, and there’s no way of getting around that. I tried it earlier this week to say I gave it a fair chance but my leg is still bothering me.

        Next time my boss asks me to do this I’ll explain the nature of the injury and offer to take up something else which doesn’t affect my knee. I’m just worried about doing that because I’m new here and I’m worried he’ll take this as me trying not to work and drop my performance review or something like that.

        1. fposte*

          I’d just start with your manager; looping HR in at this point seems like bringing in the big guns when they may not be needed.

          1. Programmer Rob*

            Sounds good. He usually just calls me up or sends me an email telling me to do something. I’m guessing that just telling him that I’m recovering from an injury that makes this painful for me plus offering to take on other duties and get a doctor’s note would be a good start?

            2. OtterB*

              Seems reasonable to me. I would also be inclined to give him a heads-up now so that he can figure it into his staffing plans. “Boss, I wanted to let you know I’m recovering from a knee injury that limits my walking and standing. It hasn’t come up before because it’s not an problem at my regular job, and I hoped it wouldn’t be for the work on location, but after my trip to XCorp this week I’ve realized that I can’t do those projects yet. My doctor estimates it will be about x more months before I’m completely recovered and able to do that kind of work.”

        2. TheCupcakeCounter*

          If it were me I wouldn’t wait and just pop into his office and tell him that after doing that work for a couple of days you are having some significant pain due to a still healing injury. Let him know there that you are more than willing to cover the in-house tasks until you are back to 100% and will keep him in the loop on your recovery. Unless he is an asshole I can’t imagine anyone getting upset. Maybe casually drop that info in water cooler discussions with your coworkers too so they sort of know why you all of a sudden aren’t available for off-site work. Something along the lines of if they ask what you did or are going to do for the weekend just say you would normally do X but since the accident/injury you are mostly rehabbing it and have to keep things low key.

        3. Snarl Furillo*

          How tight/restrictive is the environment you are in? If it’s open enough, could you use a stand/lean stool, or other portable stool that you move with you from place to place, and possibly a cane or scooter for the walking? Maybe a smaller anti-fatigue mat if you need to be moving from place to place? Obviously those won’t work if you are installing stuff in a ceiling or in a clean room or something, but it might work if the situation is more like “standing at a server terminal for two hours at each of three sites.”

    4. AndersonDarling*

      If you’re concerned about the optics of it, I’d suggest making it clear that you are taking care of the injury. To me, that is the line between stating a fact and complaining. Even if you don’t go to a doctor for it, you could do some research and purchase an appropriate knee brace, ice during breaks, stretch every once in a while …none of it to draw attention, but to passively say “I’m doing everything I can to get better.” If people see you are on the mend, then it doesn’t become A Thing.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Although you really should go to an orthopedic doctor to be sure you’re doing the right stuff at the right time. :)

    5. Anonymous Max*

      I think as long as you have documentation, asking for this accommodation will be fine. If you didn’t have any documentation, I can see that this might seem a little iffy, but with some paperwork, I don’t think anyone will mind/hassle you. It seems totally reasonable and you may even find that many of the folks in their 40s are highly sympathetic to your knee pain! I know I am, at 49 with arthritic changes in my knees since I was your age. Another point in your favor is that you gave it a try before asking for accommodation. Obviously for some accommodations, that would be insane but here it looks like good faith effort to me.

  23. seashell*

    I didn’t get the job :( got a standard form rejection as expected, no feedback. A disappointment because I thought the interview was one of my best, also a rough week at work because my coworker does nothing all day and my manager does not have any consequences for missed deadlines and a lack of accountability. It’s hard to have patience when I don’t want to be here anymore.

    1. earlgreyhot*

      Can you email the hiring manager and ask for feedback? It might help you with your next application. They might not respond, but you don’t have anything to lose by trying.

      Try to focus on your goals rather than your crappy co-worker. Focusing on that person won’t do anything good for you. Unfortunately, it’s part of working life that you’ll likely find a person like that at every job. Meh, whatever, let them be crappy employees (unless you need to say something because it’s affecting your work or business ethics are affected).

    4. Specialk9*

      I’m sorry to hear that. It’s so disappointing.

      Do you know things that help you deal with that first day of intense blargh feeling? For me it’s a smallish portion of sugary carb (like 1 bakery cookie, but not a dozen donuts, cause that’s its own bad feeling), turning up loud anthem pop I love and singing along to at least 10 songs, and Dr Who reruns.

      Here’s sending good thoughts for self care in the short term, and a good new situation in the longer term.

  24. Anonned for This*

    I’m posting this on behalf of my boyfriend, since he is not on AAM.

    BF has been coaching Sport for the Middle School of his alma mater. He has been doing that for a few years as the assistant coach. Last year, BF basically did all the duties of the head coach because head coach had to step in for high school. BF is probably the best Sports player that has come out of Alma Mater in 20 years. He won awards, his records are still in tact for our region and he played Sport in college where he won lots of awards as well (sorry, trying to keep somewhat vague here).

    BF was told the other day that an internal candidate (teacher) has applied for the newly opened Head Coach position at the middle school. Despite previous Head Coach recommending my bf, and despite my bf’s accolades and history (as a coach, alumnus and a former player of sport for alma mater), they went with the teacher.

    Teacher only played sport for 1 year in college. She is not an alumna of school district. She did not play sport in high school. She did not do well at sport. You can look up her data on Sport and it is not good. She has never coached. Her only qualification is that she is a teacher at school. Not trying to be rude or cocky about bf’s skill, I’m being completely realistic. He asked atheltic director if she has any coaching experience and was told no.

    BF is stuck. He is not breaking his commitment and will be her assistant coach, but he doesn’t know what to do. He is afraid that she will take advantage of him since he knows how to do the job, yet make double his salary without doing the work. He can’t go above and beyond because she will take all the credit, he can’t let her fail because he CARES about these kids and he does not want Sport to fail, nor does he think that is acceptable to do either. He is afraid that since she does not have experience in sport she may tell them to do something dangerous and he does not know how to tell her that it is dangerous when she is technically his boss.

    He wants a future here. It is our alma mater. We are planning on raising our kids here. Kids who will also do this Sport. He wants this program to succeed. He never did anything over the years of his coaching to make school district mad, before that gets suggested. Is there any advice on what he can do in this position? He is very shocked and disappointed that he did not get this position, but he does not want to fail the kids.

    1. Malibu Stacey*

      Sorry to hear this. What I don’t know about youth sports could fill the Grand Canyon, but I can see how a full-time teacher could be given preference for a school coach for operational reasons.

      1. LAI*

        Agreed. The one piece of knowledge I have about school sports is that teachers who coach get a stipend on top of their regular salary. I am assuming that stipend is less than paying an outside person to coach.

      2. Specialk9*

        I think that’s very common. My sister was a middle school teacher, and was required to coach a sport (two actually) as part of her job. I know a lot of my high school coaches were teachers. For most people are that level, sports are a hobby.

        So realistically, if he wants to make a life out of this instead of a hobby, he needs to treat it like a job. Leaving a dead end job is what will secure his future, and your future. He’s not failing the kids (keep perspective here – middle school sports), he’s being a responsible adult with responsibilities. He should leave with all grace and without burning any bridges, but just say that he’s looking to his future and can’t raise a family based on his current position. There’s a good chance that a position would be made, but if not, he’ll be in a better position.

    2. Rockhopper*

      I think this is pretty common, at least in public schools. I know my son’s cross country coach never knew if he would be renewed until right before the season, since he wasn’t a teacher, but as it turned out, no teachers applied during the years my son ran, so he did get to be the head coach. My brother also has done the assistant coach thing for many years and even been hired by parents of kids with scholarship level talent to do private coaching, but has never broken through to be the head coach; that has always been a teacher at the school.

    3. Essie*

      Teachers within a district are usually given preference for coaching. It’s partly professional courtesy, and partly because they know the coach will by default already be on campus and thus have a schedule that easily accommodates the sport.

      You don’t mention if your BF even teaches, much less in the same district, but this is very common (in my experience, in several states). If your BF wants that level of preference, he needs to get a teaching job in that district.

      Also, it sounds like he takes this far more seriously then most kids will at the middle school level. He may want to consider pursuing college-level coaching.

      1. Anonned for This*

        Coaching is a side job for him, so I don’t think he’s interested in a teachers license. He takes the middle school a bit seriously because that’s what got him interested in Sport. It started his love because of the coaching experience he had, and he just wants to help the kids like his coach helped him.

        Before this gets suggested by anyone, he’s not like some of the crazy out of control parents that can be on the field/court/whatever screaming at their kids for not getting enough playtime or whatever (I’m really knowledgeable about sports, I’m sure you can tell lol). He just loves sport and this has been a good side job for him.

        He’s more concerned with how to handle her being his boss and him being taken advantage of/ how to handle if he disagrees with her for safety reasons or even success reasons.

        1. Specialk9*

          I don’t think we were necessarily picturing him screaming, just that you were making it sound like he was building it up in his mind into something really big – if he leaves he’ll let down the kids, and it might be dangerous and they might get hurt if this teacher coaches by herself. It’s great to help kids get healthy and learn teamwork and skills, but it’s still middle school. He can leave, or just assistant coach, and it’ll be ok. He should make the best decision for him and his future.

        1. Anonned for This*

          We do have kids, and they show a lot interest in the sport (they are a few years out from middle school though). Obviously we are fine with whatever they want to do!

          1. nosy nelly*

            gotcha–i misread “We are planning on raising our kids here. Kids who will also do this Sport. “…and may be a little hypersensitive due to personal experience with a coach parent. kids’ sports can be intense! glad to hear everybody is fond of it.

      3. AndersonDarling*

        It’s kind of like this in some hospitals as well. There can be an opening for an asst accountant and 10 super qualified accountants apply and then one nurse who took 2 finance classes applies. The job goes to the nurse because, hospital.

    4. TGIF*

      Could he get an online teaching certificate to make him look better to the school? Knot that he has to be a teacher but maybe a certificate could beef up his resume to get the school to promote him to the head coach job. Good luck!

      1. Anonned for This*

        I don’t think he’s terribly concerned with EVER being the head coach. He does it because it’s fun and he likes doing it and it’s side income. He was perfectly fine being assistant coach when previous coach was still there. He’s more concerned with the fact that his new boss is not qualified for the role and he’s not sure how he should be handling day to day.

        1. LAI*

          Gotcha. I read your original post to be more about him feeling undervalued and being a bit resentful of the new head coach. If that’s not the case and he is happy to continue in his current role, I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t just try to help her as much as possible. I’m assuming she wanted the role because she is genuinely interested in it and plans to work hard at it, which may mean learning a lot from your bf. If that’s not the case, of course (like if she’s shirking her duties or doing a poor job) maybe he’ll need to talk to someone higher up. But I don’t see any reason to assume that will happen. He should just keep doing his job well, and try to help her learn the ropes as much as he can so that they (and the team) can all succeed.

          1. Anonned for This*

            Oh, he definitely feels undervalued and underappreciated…but yes, he knows he needs to push that aside and do the best job he can. I just don’t want him taken advantage of when he’ll get paid half of what she will.

            1. nonymous*

              One way to reframe this is that your BF is building a mature and successful athletic program for your kids to step into. It sounds like your family personally will get a lot of benefit from this (more than a random teacher would). Some other students will benefit as well, and that’s just icing on the cake.

              While I agree that it sounds like the new Head Coach could get paid disproportionate to the division of labor, it may be that the Head Coach can take on some duties that your BF doesn’t have time for/takes away from active coaching. I’m thinking that as a teacher, she can liaise with other departments and school groups in a way that takes more effort for BF (like coordination that happens during meetings, school day, in-service workshops, with other school staff and students). One example would be if the Teacher has a student aide, that student may be tasked to do some boring admin stuff like making flyers or whatever it is that kids do these days. When my MIL was a teacher, she acted in a rep capacity between her department and the school board. It could end up being a nice division of labor – if BF has a good relationship with exiting head coach, maybe he can get some ideas for what to ask for? The exiting HC might have some projects didn’t work out which the new person has social capital or skills to push through.

              I’m wondering why you think she will take credit? has BF’s prior experience with her shown that she is attention-seeking or adversarial?

              1. Anonned for This*

                Yes, liaising definitely is part of it! It’s been part of bf’s duties to coordinate with other clubs/organizations at school to make sure they come to an agreement on practices, so this might be something that new coach would be able to help with immensely since she would be in the same building with those teachers.

                I’m wondering why you think she will take credit? has BF’s prior experience with her shown that she is attention-seeking or adversarial?

                Yes, unfortunately. The new high school head coach has worked with her teaching wise and has said that she does not give credit. I told boyfriend to take that with a grain of salt, but he’s been friends with high school coach since they were in school together. It’s worrying him, but he is absolutely hoping that his friend is just being difficult/projecting his own views.

                1. Specialk9*

                  I’m not sure our assistant coaches ever got “credit”, they just picked up different areas, and were usually the ones who had the solid hands on experience. So the head coach had lots of coaching experience but hadn’t played – he was the big picture, positioning, plays, conditioning drills guy. The assistant coaches had played (a couple were D1 college phenoms, one won a big college award for the top school in the sport) and taught us the finer hands-on techniques. I think the head coach must have thanked the assistant coaches, who were all volunteer, but I don’t remember much of that.

                  What were you hoping she would say to give him credit, other than saying thanks for his work?

    5. miyeritari*

      It sucks for your BF that this happened when they obviously really wanted and really cared about this position, but it doesn’t surprise me that a teacher would get this posistion regardless of how qualified your BF is, just because everyone else at the school has a lot more regular time/experience with the teacher than your BF (as a professional, not a student). Maybe, also, parents preferred a teacher coaching than an external person, for the above reasons, or just because they feel the school has more power over the teacher.

      You don’t mention here anything about your BF’s coaching style vs the platform the school would like to run the sports as. Could your BF want to have Super Championship Team, whereas the school prefers the teacher because they just everyone to show up and have a good time?

      BF should see how good the teacher does as coach, how much the kids/parents like them, and how well the Sport goes. It’s possible that someone (administrators, teachers, parents?) could totally regret not picking BF, and go back to him next year, and even with more value/recognition of his hard work and passion for Sport.

      The only crappy thing I can think of is that BF is in a weird spot because let’s say that Teacher is ultimately awful at coaching, but since BF wants the kids to succeed and half a good time, he works twice as much for half the recognition, and in the end the teacher is rewarded or re-signed. BF has to find the weird line between ‘I want everyone to feel supported’ and ‘I would do a lot better at this job if i was head coach and everyone knows it, and I’m going to make a point of it,’ and that’s hard. Blargh.

      1. Anonned for This*

        Your last paragraph is exactly where his thoughts are. One of his friends who coaches for the high school has worked with new coach in a teaching way, and he said that teacher does not share credit well. Boyfriend is trying not to let that cloud his judgment though, he sincerely hopes she is better than everyone is expecting.

        Previous head coach was not a teacher, and boyfriend would probably continue the same style of coaching…but with changes that he learned from college/coaching at other school districts. I suggested to him that maybe they didn’t want more of the same coaching style, and he could see that.

        I’m noticing a lot of people suggesting that he’s trying to make this a super championship team, that’s not at ALL how he is. I promise. I’m a little emotional about it because I know it’s something he cares about, so I may be projecting that passion :)

    6. The IT Manager*

      Hmmm … I understand your concern but I think you’re and your BF are off base with your expectations. Middle school sports are not college sports. Even high school sports usually have a teacher as coach; although, it does vary if they seem more like a coach who teaches or vice versus. I expect the middle school coach to either be a teacher who does a little extra coaching or a enthusiastic part-timer. If your BF wants to coach and not teach, he needs to move up -probably to college level or non-school associated teams.

      Some of the things you list as pros strike me as strange arguments. Alum of a middle school? Unimportant. Still holds records? May be helpful but a coach doesn’t have to be an allstar to be a good coach and the ability to teach kids is most important.

      I do agree, though, it does suck to be the low paid assistant and to do all the work. You don’t know if that’s what the new teacher intends. It’s likely she just wanted /needed to supplement her teaching salary and thus is the way teachers do that.

      I just feel like your expectations are not in line with the way middle school sports are run, but there’s a lot of variability location to location.

      1. The IT Manager*

        And I see from your responses that your BF is just trying to navigate the new boss which he hasn’t heard great things about.

        Good luck. I hope it works out because it does seem like you both care a lot.

    7. special snowflake*

      The other thing to consider is that the school district and parents may prefer a teacher because it’s a bit easier with prioritizing academics over athletics. Your BF may be firmly in that camp but the next non-teacher may not be.
      There is also the problem of favoritism when your kids get old enough.
      My high school had and continues to have nearly a decade after I left many many problems caused by non-teachers as head coaches over the years. It was fine before their kids aged into the programs and then their children and children’s friends were prioritized over either a) winning or b) everyone getting a chance to play. Teams that had regularly gone to the state championships stopped rather abruptly.
      I am firmly of the stance that teachers should be running the athletic programs because of that – it’s not perfect, certainly they can and do play favorites but overall they’re used to being more objective. (obviously this isn’t infallible – plenty of teachers have children who move through the systems they work in)
      Beyond that (and again possibly not for your BF) rightly or wrongly there is an assessment that someone who was the star cannot always connect with someone who isn’t.

    8. Jeannie*

      I’m sorry your boyfriend is in this situation. I think I’m approaching a similar problem at my full-time job and can sympathise. My manager (who has limited digital expertise) has just announced this week she wants to transition to a digital director role. He’s been the manager of a cross-discipline production team, and (seeing how the organisational structure winds are blowing ) now wants to present himself as a digital expert (my specialty). It’s very frustrating but I can’t see a good path forward. How would that conversation go? “Excuse me manager, but I think you don’t have anywhere near the expertise for that kind of title. I would be much better at it.” Can’t see that working out positively…

      1. Anonned for This*

        I’m sorry, that really stinks. I’ve been in those shoes before at my professional job and I just looked for a new job. I hope it works out for you!

    9. Anonymous Max*

      If that position is his dream, I’d tell your BF to stick it out. If Teacher isn’t great at Sport, she’s unlikely to stay in that position for long, especially if it’s mostly the higher pay she’s after – is she passionate about Sport? People like that find jobs that pay what they want to make that don’t involve doing something they suck at, or they get pushed out (in the saner orgs) by people who would like the position to be filled with someone who does excel. I know in the initial disappointment phase, it’s hard to see the playing field ever changing (har har), but I’d bet that Teacher is not going to be in that position for more than a couple of years, at most. And if BF is the best darn assistant coach ever, the school probably won’t make the same mistake again.

    10. Artemesia*

      I would if him be looking for a coaching job at another school in the area if there are any. When they take you for granted and give the job you should have to a weak candidate that is a strong message that it isn’t getting better. If that is off the table there isn’t much to do but be taken advantage of. Or I might with draw this year only for some temporary ‘other’ commitments. But again if he is willing to be exploited he will be exploited; it becomes eventually a matter of self respect.

      1. Anonned for This*

        Thanks Artemesia, I agree. Luckily it looks like he’ll also be assistant coaching at the high school and might be able to claim split time with that!

    11. New Girl*

      My SO pretty much got hired in his teaching position because he also happened to coach the one varsity sport that was in need of a new head coach. His school really likes all the coaching positions to be filled by teachers. I believe its actually part of his contract that they get first opportunity for coaching, club advisers and other after school activities.

      1. Xarcady*

        My brother really wanted to coach high school football after he retired from the military. So he spent the last few years he was in the service getting a teaching degree, because he knew that was the best way for him to get a coaching job.

        1. nonegiven*

          I think my high school didn’t hire teachers who could coach, they hired coaches with a teaching certificate.

    12. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      So BF has never been head coach before and has always been an assistant, if I read that right. How did BF handle these exact same issues with the previous coach? If that worked well, why is BF so concerned about a new head coach? (Please, please, please tell me it isn’t because new head coach is a woman…I say that because the new head coach’s gender is the only one mentioned. OP doesn’t mention the old head coach’s gender or the students’ gender. We don’t know if we’re talking boy’s basketball or a coed swim team. Could be either. )
      So a teacher got head coach over a community member. Happens all the time, and is completely normal in a school setting.
      My advice:
      Respect the new coach, take a collaborative approach but defer to her when there are differences, because she is head coach and BF is her assistant.
      Only ever speak well of her to the students, do not undermine her authority. Creating strife and division doesn’t help anyone. Don’t ever say anything to a student remotely resembling “I know Coach Wilson told you to do X but I have more experience at Sport than her and so I am telling you that Y and Z work better.”
      Remember she’s the boss, even if your BF thinks he’s all that because of Reasons.

      1. Anonned for This*

        Previous coach had been the coach for at least 15 years, and bf felt comfortable enough with previous coach to express any differences. Gender does not matter in this, at all. It was the difference between 1 year of sport playing vs. 15 years sports playing competitively + over 3 years coaching for multiple districts.

        I’m realizing now from the comments that teachers get priority. I knew they would get extra consideration but I thought that qualifications would matter, too.

        He absolutely will respect the new coach, and to be honest I’m taking a bit of offense to you insinuating that he would talk bad about her, or that this is in any way gender related. We are supposed to take OP’s at their word, and believe me when I say that he IS more qualified. Not because of “reasons” or gender.

        But this sport has changed a lot in the 10 years since new coach participated. They have discovered that certain aspects of coaching back then is actually physically VERY DANGEROUS to players. Most people do not know this unless they have been involved in Sport recently. He does not want to seem like a know it all, and I wrote in asking how he can delicately handle this when they do have differences. My suggestion was to say “in the past we have done this like XYZ, how would you like to proceed” but he’s also extremely concerned about injury. I was a little emotional when I wrote this, and I’m damn proud of boyfriend, so that may have colored my post a bit, but I’d definitely like to stress that he is not planning on sabotaging her. That would be unprofessional and would not help the kids at all.

        1. Specialk9*

          Oh, interesting clarification that it’s not a generic ‘she’s inexperienced, they might get hurt’ (I was thinking they might pull a muscle if she didn’t have them warm up enough) vs a specific ‘the old way is dangerous but most people don’t know this’ – that’s actually a really useful distinction.

          So you then have an assistant coach who has to figure out how to manage up on this safety topic, while making the coach feel respected, and also dealing with his own feelings of hurt and feeling let down. Yeah, that’s a hard one!

          So in that case, I’d prioritize the safety thing, bring printouts of articles on why Old Way is bad, and pretend he’s not trying to educate *her* but rather wanting to educate the *kids*. ‘From everything I’ve seen you have a good head on your shoulders and seem to care about the science behind the sport. Here’re my source docs I’m relying on, I’m thinking of explaining it to the kids this way and doing this drill this way. But I wanted your thoughts on whether that’s the best way to teach kids not to do X.’ And sprinkle plenty of verbal and body language respect in there.

          Then if she insists on doing it Old Way and kids could get hurt, that he can take to the school.

    13. Coach's wife*

      For my husband’s school district, liability comes into this, too. They are required to have a faculty member on the staff of every team, because the teachers are part of the larger district policies on adequate supervision. Community coaches can only ever be an assistant, for that reason. He’s worked in 3 different school systems and they all had this policy. It doesn’t sound like your boyfriend’s district is that explicit about it, but this could mean that a teacher will get hired over him whenever possible.

      In general, if you want to head coach at a school, you have to be a full time employee there.

      1. Tawaki*

        I run an after school club for an elementary school, and the reason I have a teacher with me is strictly liability/insurance issues required by the district . I have a degree, but not in teaching. I’ve also been finger printed, back ground checked (felony and sex offender), 6 personal references (all called), 4 work history references (all called) and I carry liability insurance. This for a one hour/twice a week non paying gig. I still need a person with a valid teaching license in the room during club time.

        It doesn’t matter if you are an coaching elite athletes for the Olympics. If you don’t hold a teaching license with the state, you will always be a coaching assistant in the public school districts in the area.

        If the local high school wanted Marta Karolyi to coach their girl’s gymnastic team, the 24 year old first year teacher with the teaching license would be listed as head coach.

        I’ve also done enrichment classes at different private schools, and they also have the same requirement.

        This has nothing to do with how good the person is as a coach, it’s a CYA for the district if something horrible happens and people come loaded for bear. All school sponsored events must have a licensed teacher as the lead person.

        Personally, I would probably go finish out this year and look for a better fit. If your husband is that good, he’s going to chafe always getting little to no credit for his hard work. He’s making an inexperienced person look good. The winning/losing goes under the coaches name, not the assistant coaches.

        If this is all for the love of being around the kids, and paying it forward, you can live with the above situation. If it isn’t, I’d start looking now for somewhere I could have more control over the situation.

    14. Mobuy*

      I am a jr. high track “coach” who never ran track. I don’t even really coach the kids, but I’m a head coach. Know why? Because I do all the paperwork, order sweats, deal with uniforms, cheerlead every kid, show up every day, recruit runners, liaise with other teachers, plan awards banquets, create end-of-year certificates…I’m getting exhausted just thinking about it!

      The point is, coaching at a school is a lot more than just getting the kids to run faster. Yes, there are sprint coaches and jump coaches and throwing coaches and distance coaches and hurdles coaches, but it would be really tough for them to do what I do on top of their other responsibilities. And yes, usually the teacher gets the head coach job, unless they can’t find a teacher to do it. It’s the reality of school sports teams. I would be lost without all the area coaches, but honestly, they’d be lost without me too. I’m sorry your husband didn’t get the job since it sounds like he’s good at it and loves it, but school jobs are going to go to school personnel.

    15. Snarl Furillo*

      Former Youth Sports Professional (doofy eyeroll) opinion: if this is truly just a side hustle he does for love of the game (which is awesome!), he’s mismatched in the middle school athletics program and might not ever be happy with his roll there. I have seen guys with similar profiles have good success in either independent coaching (like AAU or club volleyball, etc) or especially with small camp and clinic businesses. Day camps during school breaks, “Coach Y Warrior Workshop” one-day Saturday things, one-week summer camps, etc. If he really loves coaching, he can then move into the coaching clinic space, where he gives one-day seminars to whatever middle school teachers get assigned indoor track that year (sounds like that might be right up his alley since he is still fluent with best practices and player safety?).

      I’m seriously envisioning your boyfriend’s minor Greco-Roman wrestling empire and it’s delightful.

      (Junior college coaching might also be a possibility if he is willing to move out of the middle school space- most programs are pretty small and he would likely have wide latitude to do development camps and similar.)

    16. msroboto*

      You handle this the way you handle any situation like this. You act in the best interest of the children without regard to who gets credit.
      You are talking about new information that has come to light in the sport as to the best way to play or teach etc. You share this with the head coach and do what’s in the best interest of the kids.
      In my role as a programmer / tech I have always been willing to share all my information. I want people to do the right thing. If someone becomes knowledgeable enough to usurp me so be it. I know it’s quite different but you don’t make others look bad to advance yourself. You give your colleagues credit as well (in tech the quiet ones can be overlooked. I will say Fergus had a great idea and let him have the floor).
      He probably has to accept the teacher is head coach and if he wants to participate he can as the assistant.

  25. BRR*

    My employer does raises/promotions at the start of each calendar year and I was told that one was in the works but I was passed over without any explanation. My manager left right before they were announced and I asked my grandboss/acting manager for a raise and promotion and got roughly a third of what I asked for, which was very realistic, and no promotion. My grandboss acknowledged the raise wasn’t as much as what I asked for but strongly praised what I have accomplished and said that we will continue talking about how my role will grow. It was strongly implied that she agreed with what I asked for but couldn’t get that for me and that if I didn’t leave I would get to where I should be at the start of 2018 (I’m aware this sounds like I might be misinterpreting the situation but I really think this was the point she wanted to get across).

    Now is around the time they start planning for raises and promotions that will be put in place at the start of 2018. I want to follow up but am not sure who to check with. I have a new manager who started a little over a month ago. It feels awkward to ask someone who isn’t really familiar with my work but I don’t want it to be going over his head to my grandboss.

    Should I ask my new manager about a raise or continue a prior conversation with my grandboss?

    1. fposte*

      I would start with the new manager, because otherwise you’re going over her head and that’s got high problem potential.

    2. CAA*

      This is actually a perfect discussion to have with the new manager. He needs to learn the process for giving raises and promotions at his new company, and he also needs to learn what his team needs from him. Bring this up in a regular one-on-one meeting, or if you don’t have those, then ask him if he has a few minutes at a time when things seem relatively calm. You can start the conversation by explaining that you know the company does raises and promotions in January and they begin planning for that now. Then tell the story (very briefly!) of what happened last year, just mentioning that your grandboss got involved right after your previous manager left. Then talk about your accomplishments this year and your value to the business, and tell him what raise and title you’d like to have come the new year.

  26. Temperance*

    Is anyone else super sluggish today because they decided to stay up/get up early to try and snag an SNES classic? I’m so tired, but it’s going to be worth it once I get to actually play the darn thing. :)

    1. Bekx*

      WALMART CANCELED MY PRE-ORDER!! They sent me the email at 3 AM today. I was so upset. Calling stores, hurrying through my hair/makeup to run to walmart this morning….then I had to go to work and it was selling out everywhere.

      Boyfriend snapchatted me about an hour ago of him going to GameStop and getting me one. He’s a keeper for sure. I was crying!

      1. Temperance*

        Your boyfriend rocks! I’m so sorry to hear about Walmart – you would think that after the last preorder fiasco, they’d have gotten their shit together!

        1. Dr. KMnO4*

          I’m sure that Walmart is not entirely blameless in this scenario (it never is), but I would also take a long hard look at Nintendo. When the NES was coming out they flat out did not make enough units to satisfy demand, and they didn’t seem to care either. I believe stores were running out simply because Nintendo didn’t ship them nearly enough stock. The comment by Bess about Breath of the Wild suggests that Nintendo didn’t provide the stock, so Amazon couldn’t fulfill the order. If you’re interested, Jim Sterling (on YouTube, his show is the Jimquisition) has at least one video about Nintendo’s mishandling of the NES release.

      2. Bess*

        That happened with my Breath of the Wild from Amazon–like two days before release I got an email saying “this item will be delivered when it is back in stock.” I was so mad–I’d reserved pretty early. I think I ended up just downloading it when it went live, just to know I’d have it.

    2. Yorick*

      Boyfriend went but didn’t get one. I didn’t know he had planned to, but now I’m super sad to not be able to play it.

  27. SpookyMulder*

    Happy Friday! Yesterday I asked my touchy-feely coworker to please stop hugging me. It was terrifying, but it went well. So for anyone else dreading having that awkward conversation, you can do it, and most people will be reasonable and respectful. So go forth and assert your boundaries.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Most people really are reasonable- even if they are clueless about that one thing. I fret about so many conversations, but in the end, all I needed to do was share some slightly uncomfortable information, and then everything was fine.

    3. Clownbaby*

      Ugh I need to do this with a vendor. I used to work in my company’s purchasing department and was the only female there. This vendor didn’t hug me then, but he was the type to tell me to smile…I moved our of the purchasing department about a year ago and barely see this vendor anymore…maybe like once every other month and now he insists on hugging me because “It’s been so long and the fellas in purchasing ain’t as nice”.

      You may have just been my inspiration :)

      1. AnonAndOn*

        One of the mail couriers at my former job mistook my politeness for interest. When I announced I was leaving that job he asked for a hug. I bypassed that by saying “I’ll shake your hand instead.”

        Months after leaving that job I’d sometimes see him on the bus to a temp job I had. He’d say hi to me and I’d say hi back. But one time I saw him getting off the bus I was waiting for and said hi and he looked me up and down and said, “Hey, sexy.” Not cool at all. I said that but he didn’t hear me.

        I don’t like it when men act creepy towards women like that on the job. Dude was old enough to be my father too.

  28. Folklorist*

    Hello Everybody! It’s time for your ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!!

    Go off and do something that you’ve been putting off and come back and brag about it. You’ll feel better; we’ll be proud of you; the world will be a better place.

    Now I’m off to send a ton of cajoling emails.

    1. Temperance*

      I need to sort through the stacks of papers on my desk. Telling you and the rest of the commenters means that I have to!

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I was thinking about this post earlier this week, so I took care of uploading all of my documents on Tuesday so I wouldn’t put it off until today. :) It took me a couple hours, but that’s nothing considering I had been putting it off for months. Glad it’s done now, and I don’t have to look at that stack of paper on my desk anymore.

  29. MuseumMusings*

    Alternatives to candy dishes!

    I’ve found that if I supply a candy dish, it’s often a strain on my personal budget. Now I keep a bowl of kinetic sand at my desk and I’ve found people actually prefer it to the candy! It has the added bonus of being cheaper and lasting waaay longer (I usually get three months per batch). I have regulars who will come up to my desk just to play with the sand.

    Does anyone else have candy bowl alternatives? I’d like to mix it up occasionally.

    1. CAA*

      Anything people can move around and leave in a new state works.
      – those little magnetic shapes that you can stack in all different configurations on a base – I don’t know what they’re called, but if you search google images for “magnetic desk toys”, a lot of them show up
      – magnetic poetry kits are great, but you need something they can stick to
      – Euler disks are fun, but they can be noisy

      1. Blue Anne*

        When I was a kid, my dentist’s office had one of those magnetic bases with a ton of paperclips on it. It was great to play with and very handy for the receptionist.

      2. zora*

        I’ve had a couple places where there was a magnetic toy to play with on someone’s desk, it was always fun. And I’ve been looking at ones online called “Zen Blocks” that are nice looking little wooden blocks, but stick together with magnets. I’ve been contemplating buying one for my desk because I like to fidget.

        But your idea of kinetic sand just reminded me that the Bloggess has been posting about her obsession with bowls of buttons! I had been thinking about it for home, but now I super want a small bowl of buttons on my desk to play with! What a great idea, thank you!

      1. MuseumMusings*

        Oooh, I tried waterbeads for a week, but marbles might go over well (the main complaint was, “Where’s the sand?!”).

    4. soupmonger*

      What is this for? Why do you have candy bowls on your desk in the first place, let alone have an alternative to it? I’m in the UK and just have no idea what this is about!

      1. Lisa B*

        People use them for a few different reasons- as an enticement to get people to stop by and visit, or something for nervous people to fiddle with so they’ll be able to relax a bit.

        1. Lissa*

          But if the point was candy then why would marbles/sand be an alternative, people aren’t eating those! I don’t think the question was “why do people have candy dishes” but more that it sounds like it’s a necessity that requires an alternative, which implies there’s a reason to have it other than just candy!

          1. soupmonger*

            My question actually was ‘why do people have candy dishes’?
            I stated I was in the UK, ( because we don’t use the term ‘candy’ here), but I don’t understand the concept of actively encouraging people to stop by your desk with enticements of sweets (candy) or other things to fiddle with. It was the overall concept I am struggling with so any enlightenment will be gratefully received.

    5. Cath*

      I found that chocolate in my candy bowl disappeared waaay faster than just hard candy. Still there if you need a sugar fix, but nobody is dying pilfering all the butterscotch while I’m at lunch.

    6. Chaordic One*

      We used to have a coworker who had this flat bowl full of sand in it. It was supposed to be some kind of zen thing. Sometimes he’d draw pictures in the sand and he had this little rake that he’d rake the sand with. One day someone put a little toy tractor pulling a plow behind it in the bowl.

    7. Specialk9*

      Co-worker has 10 plastic balls with magnets, in a line on her cube entrance.

      Another has an always-morphing freeform statue made of company branded Legos (they were scrounged from a big bowl left at some point).

      I always grab my boss’ free paperclips to fiddle with. If you want something fun, there are all kinds of paperclips, or you could dangle a long chain of regular paperclips near the door.

      I knew someone with those Zen sand-rake-black pebble sets. Hard to resist.

  30. Direct Report Conflict*

    I started a new position a few months ago, and my direct report started about a week before me. Within the first few days that i started, my direct report told me that she also interviewed for my job and they offered her the lower job that opened up shortly after the interview process ended. They said that there were no hard feelings. It’s been about 2 months since then, and it seems like there are hard feelings and I’m not sure how to address it: they frequently question my decisions and talk down to me. I’m sure it doesn’t help that I’m 20 years younger than them, but I have a lot more experience in our field and a relevant master’s degree. I’m not sure if i should just let this go or address it. I hate workplace conflict, and i also completely understand from her point of view why it would be frustrating, but I also like my job and don’t want to leave it anytime soon. Any advice?

    1. WellRed*

      You’re her manager, right? Time to sit her down, acknowledge her disappointment and say, “What’s up? You keep questioning my decisions.” Also, would have been nice if the company had given you a heads up.

    2. Argh!*

      I have been in situations where employees questioned my decisions, and I have found that I really need to take the questions seriously, acknowledge the subordinate’s contribution, and explain my thinking. If they won’t let go (I had one like that) I will pull the authoritarian “Because I say so” line but not until there’s been a sincere conversation about the difference of opinion. You can’t enforce respect. You can only enforce compliance. Respect has to be earned, and if you start from that place in your head, things will go more smoothly.

    3. Jerry Vandesic*

      Your boss is an idiot. They should have let the junior position rest for a while, and after you were hired you should have been the one to make the hiring decision. That they would hire someone to work for you after the candidate failed to get your job means they don’t know how to hire.

  31. Rincat*

    Question for my husband: So my husband is looking for jobs as a desktop support tech, and there are two positions open at my workplace (large public university). The descriptions read almost the same – one is Senior IT Analyst, the other is IT Analyst 2. They are listed as belonging to the same department, but that could be incorrect, because our job application portal is jacked up and doesn’t list departments correctly. Anyway, the only significant difference between the two is that “senior” is asking for 6+ years of experience (which he has), and “level 2” is asking for 2-3 years. However the job duties are the same – maintaining computer labs and managing student workers. In fact the level 2 position lists quite a bit more work in terms of scope than the senior position (think more budgeting and people management).

    So my question is….should he apply for both? Or just the senior since he has more IT experience? I’m leaning towards the senior position because 1) he has 10+ years of experience and 2) it doesn’t mention as much budgeting and people management as the other job, but that could just be how they wrote that particular job description. I know both jobs are definitely under the IT division, so eventually our VPs and CIO would see his applications if he got through the interview process. Would it look weird to apply for both? Thanks for any advice y’all might have!

    P.S. Re: nepotism – we have a pretty generous nepotism policy here so him being married to me wouldn’t affect his chances at all, we just couldn’t report to each other.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Yep, I’d apply for the 10+ year experience job. Both positions may do exactly the same work, but the Sr. does the advanced projects while the IT Analyst does the less complicated projects.

    2. dear liza dear liza*

      I’d apply for both. dear Henry is in IT and in (his) experience, that field doesn’t seem to mind when people apply for multiple positions.

    3. Stop That Goat*

      Personally, I’d go for both. I’m an IT Analyst and those positions are close enough that I don’t think you’d raise an eyebrow over it. That’s just my experience though. If you decide to only apply for one, definitely reach high if he has the experience.

    4. Specialk9*

      I’d go for the senior position. I’m guessing they’re looking for a junior and a sr position, working on the same tasks. He wouldn’t take junior pay, would he?

      But also, if you know anyone there, ask. (Bonus, it gives them a heads up to watch for/look for his resume; these places sometimes jack up the outgoing side of applications too.)

  32. NGL*

    Update on last week’s question about telling my boss about my pregnancy…

    My boss and I, despite sitting in adjacent cubes, almost never speak face-to-face. After taking Monday off (stupid cold), I spent all day Tuesday trying to figure out a plausible reason for a face-to-face check in. Then Wednesday morning he asked if he could speak to me for “2 seconds.” The 2 second conversation was to announce I was getting a merit raise! (5% vs the company’s average annual raise of 2%) So I thanked him, and then said I actually wanted to talk to him since I had big news…

    Boss took it well, which I was expecting. He and his wife just had their first kid in the spring, but I’d forgotten that they hadn’t announced until after NY Comic Con. She used to work in the same company (totally different department, but still involved in Comic Con) so last year they went through the exact same thing of her reduced availability to work while hiding it from colleagues. So boss has volunteered to take over anything I can’t handle or run interference if I need it, and will absolutely keep it to himself until I’m ready to tell others.

    So it’s been a fantastic week: a raise, boss knows I’m expecting, got an absolutely delightful pregnancy care package from my sister-in-law (who just had her third kid! I’m in awe she pulled this together what must have been just a day or two before she went into labor), AND husband and I scored an SNES classic this morning.

    2. Emmie*

      Congratulations! If you don’t mind sharing, what was in your preggo care package that you loved? I would like to do that for someone one day.

      1. NGL*

        The parts I loved was “The Big Activity Book for Pregnant People” (or very similar title) which is hilarious, a funny T-shirt that coincidentally I’d been eyeing (“You’re Kickin’ Me Smalls” because I quote the Sandlot way too often), and a sonogram picture frame.

        She also sent What to Expect When You’re Expecting which I’ve been side-eying since I’ve heard it’s worse than WebMD for making you freak out. But she said it was more helpful than Googling, and she’s successfully had 3 kids, so I won’t burn it immediately ;-)

  33. A.N.O.N.*

    Hey, HR folks.

    I asked this late on last week’s thread but wouldn’t mind more opinions.

    Thoughts on getting an MBA?

    I’m fairly new in my HR career (but have progressed quickly), and am currently at a University where I have tuition benefits. I’m thinking of taking advantage of it by doing the part-time MBA program, but I’m still on the fence on whether it’s worthwhile time-wise. I certainly don’t think it’s necessary, but I imagine it’d be helpful if aspiring to be a CHRO or something to that effect? Maybe?

    1. miyeritari*

      Would also be interested in thoughts here. I currently do user operations, but I don’t know a lot about how to move my customer interaction skills into using data to get things implemented skills.

      1. Specialk9*

        MBA was my best decision. I was in a role in which a great degree was needed to unlock the next rung (esp bc we billed clients based on degrees), and management knowledge was needed. Frankly I did MBA because it’s generic and applicable in any industry – knowing how to manage and understanding business are always necessary.

        My biggest recommendation for MBA is to find a simple book on the class topic – high school textbook or those terribly named Complete Fatuous Lamebrain books, which actually are pretty good and also funny – to make sure you *really* understand the basics. They got me through my degree.

        I’d say a nice benefit of my degree is that I have a broad understanding of business terms even if I don’t use them regularly, and I have a framework to slot new things into.

    2. La Revancha*

      I don’t think any type of Masters is necessary unless it’s a requirement of a specific job. Experience is more important than a graduate degree, since it will likely take more than 15 years to reach a CHRO type of position. Focus on being a bad ass at your new job.

      As a side note, I just looked up 10 different people on linkedin with CHRO titles and none had a Masters degree.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        That’s sort of what I was thinking: experience is key and MBA, while nice, is not necessary (I think).

        Curious to know if the CHROs had any other sort of education/certification?

    4. InOverMyHeadHR*

      I’m in a similar boat…only not at a university, so no tuition benefits for me :(

      Moved up very quickly…probably way too quickly…in HR. I am now the sole head of HR for a company with just over 200 employees.

      I am hesitant to get any debt…especially after I worked so hard to pay off all of my undergrad debt, but I feel an MBA is a must, not only to boost my business know-how, but also to gain some respect from my peers, who are all 20+ years my senior with post-grad degrees. The CFO here says I really don’t need one, but the Exec VP and DOO are both pushing it. I may try to ask for some financial support from the company if they really want me to pursue it…but the fact that it is the CFO who is telling me I don’t need to kind of answers the question.

      1. Specialk9*

        As a business person, not in HR, I think that PMP and MBA have roughly the same weight, and PMP – while grueling in the short time – is a way lighter haul in terms of time and money. They aren’t exactly the same, PMP is about how to manage projects, while MBA is about leadership skills – finances, presenting, marketing, management. But you might get the bang you’re looking for with PMP.

    5. A.N.O.N.*

      Nice to hear I’m not the only one having this debate!

      I’ve generally heard that leadership would take someone with an MBA more seriously, and while that’s good, I don’t know if it justifies spending the time/money to get a degree. If having an MBA opened doors to job opportunities that would be closed otherwise, then sign me up. But is that the case?

        1. A.N.O.N.*

          My employer covers 90% of it, so it’s significantly cheaper than it would be otherwise, but it’s still thousands of dollars – certainly more than I’d want to spend if it’s not really going to help me in the long run.

          1. Specialk9*

            Wow. You are insanely lucky. I had pretty good tuition assistance, and still ended up $50k in the hole, at a school I specifically chose for price.

    6. Trixie*

      If you have tuition benefits, I say go for it. I work in HR at a University and at least four staff (including CHRO and two partners) have an MBA. I wouldn’t go into debt for it but tuition benefits with a part-time program is beyond ideal.

    7. Belle*

      I actually completed my MBA through a weekend program and am glad I did. The cost was reasonable in my case (due to reimbursement) and while it did take two years of weekends, it has helped me professionally make the next step up a couple of times. It isn’t the degree only but what I learned and applying it in my positions going forward (plus the networking was good to meet people in other industries).

      My last two jobs have been at bigger corporations and they take both experience, education and certifications into consideration – so I am glad I did. Not sure I would pay it completely out of pocket but subsidized helped. I am also making double what I was before the program – so I am seeing ROI.

    8. i wish it were a banana*

      Yes. Do it. If nothing else, it gives you additional tools and perspective as a business partner. Nearly all of the HR staff at my company have either a masters in HR or an MBA.

    9. periwinkle*

      I’ll repeat my answer from last time: MBA = learning to speak finance and finance = the language of the C-suite. You’ll learn how to back up your proposals or analyses with estimates of money spent and value created. Is it necessary if you don’t aspire to the C-suite yourself? Maybe not, but it will help you be taken seriously by leadership if you’re able to speak in their language.

    10. Sr. Manager Human Resources*

      I’d say you are correct, a Master’s degree (business administration, management, leadership, org development) would be very helpful in moving up the HR ladder. IMO, strategic HR leadership requires a deep and broad understanding of business in general, as your organization & market specifically. The value of these degrees is not the specific content (academic knowledge can go stale quickly); it lies, I believe, in understanding the processes, developing competence in critical thinking, evolving a coherent systems standpoint from which to frame your work. The value is more often in the journey than in the specific facts acquired.

      I’d really recommend looking at the alternate business degrees before going the MBA route. At least in my local area (SF Bay Area), MBAs are pretty much the degree du jour and not particularly well respected. The broader degrees are viewed as having a longer lifespan and more applicability in the HR realm. YMMV of course!

      Earning and maintaining an SPHR or another similar nationally recognized professional certification is also becoming a ‘must have’ in many fields. And experience – progressively more demanding experience is required; I’m sure you realize 15 years doing the same thing is not 15 years’ experience! You don’t say how long you’ve been in HR, just that you’re relatively new. I generally advise working 3-5 years in the field before going into an MBA program. However tuition benefits are not to be sneezed at! I’d look at the other business degrees before settling on the MBA, and then go for it!

  34. paul*

    I’ve got a conundrum.

    I’ve been asked to collate data on the sorts of things that a particular demographic section of our clientele in rural counties needs. For example, think “vets over sixty”, although that isnt’ what it is. And I’m supposed to try to tease out trends and commonalities in this data.

    The problem is the particular demographic slice they’re trying to analyze–apparently for a grant of some sort–is so damn narrow that there’s no more than, literally, 2-3 clients of ours in most of the counties they’re looking at that match it (which isn’t shocking, most of these counties have between 1 and 3k people in the whole county), so I’m not sure how much confidence I can have in any trends I may spot or how to put that when I submit this. I’m more than willing to vouch for the data itself, but I’m not sure how many conclusions I can draw from it given the small numbers we’re talking.

    1. dr_silverware*

      I mean…you probably can’t draw any conclusions. Would you be able to provide the data, and then include collations for wider demographic swathes of the county? Like, “here’s the data for white vets over sixty who drive Corollas, but since that sample size is so small, I’ve also provided data for vets over sixty, where we can interpret these data as a trend.”

    2. nosy nelly*

      How statistically rigorous are they expecting you to be, here? Could you provide confidence intervals or standard deviations or some other metric that demonstrates how meaningless a metric based on 2-3 clients would be? Or could you investigate further in some way to provide “profiles” on the clients? More qualitative evaluation of characteristics…?

      1. paul*

        I have zero training in statistics and know relatively little about it (I googled standard deviation after reading your post); I just have enough common sense to know that when you’re talking an aggregate total of *nineteen people* over 18 counties, 1/2 of whom are in the one real city in that area (10k total population), there’s just not a lot of hard conclusions to draw about any trends.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      When that happens to me, I go back to the requester and tell them “Your N is 3. You need to open your criteria to make any analysis possible. How would you like to do that?” I usually get a new data criteria without a problem, but it may take them some time to re-think their question.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Although every once in a while someone will request a list of the records that fit the set and they will just read those cases to see if they even should proceed with the project.

      2. paul*

        I just emailed our ED (who’se the one that requested this) with a statement like that. We’ll see how it goes.

        I just don’t’ want to get held to predicting trends when I know there’s not enough people here to actually predict anything!

        I’m not sure about the details of what they want the data for; if it’s a niche grant they may not be able to open up the criteria much, I don’t know.

    4. Inspector Spacetime*

      A small sample size doesn’t necessarily mean that you can’t draw conclusions. You can tell whether something is statistically significant based on its P-value, yes? But I’m sure you know this already, sorry.

      dr_silverware has a good idea. Or maybe you can say that “These are the patterns I noted,” without vouching for their significance.

      1. paul*

        I have no idea what a P-value *is*. I’ve seen them referenced but I don’t know what they mean.

        I’ve got 0 statistical training; I strongly suspect I got asked to do this because I know how to use Excel better than most of the rest of the office so I can gather the data quicker…

        1. Jerry Vandesic*

          See if you can get some help from someone who knows statistics. Coming up with bad insights is worse than not coming up with insights.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            This, very, very much so.

            Honestly if you don’t know what a P-value is, they, really really shouldn’t have you doing anything related to statistics and trends in the first place. It’s like asking you to write a report in Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics – no matter how hard you work, you’re only going to produce nonsense.

            In your place, I’d say outright that the sample size is much too small to draw any conclusions.

            And as a side note – p-value analysis is useful, but also prone to misinterpretation, particularly with small sample sizes. Doing small number statistics properly is advanced work, and even professionals regularly get it wrong (in published papers. that are subsequently used to set government policy)

      2. nom*

        Actually, sample size is pretty important and *can* affect significance tests. Probability of type I and type II error goes up with small samples — basically, you’re more likely to get a ‘false positive’ or a ‘false negative’.

        I use a lot of population level & survey data, and our general guideline is that the in order to generate a population estimate, the minimum number of valid responses has to be at least 50.

    5. OtterB*

      As a rule of thumb, if your sample size is small, you can increase it by broadening the criteria (as you already mentioned), or possibly by aggregating over a larger time period. So if you have 19 people that meet the criteria in the previous year, you might look at information for the past 3 years. This makes sense for some things but not for others, so it depends on your need and your data.

    6. N Twello*

      I’m not sure you’ve got a problem. There’s a problem if your sample size is too small or is unrepresentative, but it sounds like it’s your total population that’s small. So if there are 3 of these people in a county and you have the data on all three of them or on 2/3s of them, then you can go ahead and make claims from the data. Statistically, it’s perfectly valid.

      1. Jinn*

        This.

        You have the total population under consideration. You don’t need to sample it and then conduct statistical tests to determine if that sample produces data that is generalizable to the total population and not random. Because you have the total population already. In surveys, it’s called a census survey.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Going the opposite way, why not just talk about these 2-3 people?
      Statistics is more for handling larger groups and estimating trends. When you have 2-3 people it’s easier just to do the people directly.

      More to the point, if this is for a grant will these 2-3 people actually want the benefit from the grant? It could be that they don’t and you are all wasting your time.

  35. K.*

    Has anyone moved into consulting (for a firm, not solo)? I’m starting to take some info interviews with consultants I know. I’m thinking of making that shift but am not quite sure where to start. What questions should I ask?

    1. anna green*

      I’ve always worked in consulting (for a firm). without knowing exactly what you do, i will try to be general, with consulting, a lot of it is flexibility. Especially if its just informational interviews, i would ask about how many hours they are working, what hours, are your hours per day flexible, how much travel, how much advance notice they get on projects/travel. What types of project and what variety and are there busy times per year and slow times. how much autonomy they get on projects, what is the support structure at the firm, what resources will you have. are you completing projects on your own, or are they larger team projects. will you deal directly with clients or is that someone elses job, etc. not sure this will help :)

    2. Clever Name*

      Ask how much responsibility you’ll have for bringing in new business. Ask about what metrics they use to assess performance. Do they just look at a raw number of billable hours, a percentage of the time you’re chargeable, or how much revenue you bring in.

  36. Super Anon*

    For those of you who have gone through IVF and the procedures leading up to it, how have you managed your absences in the office? My clinic doesn’t open until 7:30a.m., and it’s 30 minutes away from my office, so even with lunchtime appointments and early morning appointments, I’m typically late or taking an extended lunch. I work in a smaller office, and so those absences are noticeable. I also don’t want my co-workers and especially my boss to know I’m going through IVF. My boss, in particular, tends to like reasons, and if I tell her it’s a medical issue then she’ll dig for more details before approving the time.

    So any suggestions for ways to handle this?

    1. FDCA In Canada*

      If your office will allow you to use sick time for appointments, use it. Your boss absolutely doesn’t need to know anything other than “It’s a medical issue that’s under control, but my doctor is requiring some frequent monitoring over the next [couple of weeks/couple of months depending on your treatment cycle]. It’s fine, though!” and then change the topic. If she presses, “well, what kind of monitoring?” you can just say “It’s fine! Thanks, though!” and change the topic again. As long as she’s aware it’s a medical thing, I’d just stick to “My doctor requires a lot of monitoring at this time.” That way when you aren’t going in for the constant appointments anymore, if she asks, you can say “It’s been resolved for the moment.”

      1. Super Anon*

        I like the line about frequent monitoring. Because that is pretty accurate, and it provides some detail without providing specific details.

      2. blackcat*

        If you get asked “well, what kind of monitoring?” you can respond, “I need frequent bloodwork to check on a few things. Needles gross me out, so I’d rather not talk about it!”

    2. PR for Now*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry to hear that. Your boss might like reasons, she may even dig for them, but you don’t have to give them to her. If she or your coworkers ask why you’re coming in later or taking longer lunches, you could tell them that you have a doctors appnt in a matter-of-fact way and immediately move on to a different topic. Preferably in the same sentence. For example, “Oh I just had a doctors appnt, and, actually I’m glad I caught you because I wanted to talk to you about Work Thing.” It’s none of their business.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. Super Anon*

        I think the problem is that she can deny the requests for the time, if she gets into the mood. And she has denied PTO requests for appointments in the past. She’s generally very good, but her need for details before approving time is frustrating.

    3. Call me St. Vincent*

      Infertility is covered under the Pregnancy Discrimination Act so you may find coverage there. My state has additional protections for pregnancy and related conditions so you can check for protections in your state as well.

    4. Cath*

      I had a coworker get fired because of IVF. Because so much of it has to be done at the last minute, she didn’t 24 hours notice before calling out. I did clomid and had one last minute appointment for an extra ultrasound on my lazy ovaries, but if I had made it to IVF-level intervention, I would have got intermittent FMLA to cover myself.

      1. Observer*

        That sounds odd to me – with IVF, clinics tend to try to control the scheduling, so for a lot of things you actually do know 24 hours in advance.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      Personally, I told my boss what was going on – we were dealing with age related issues, so we had about a year and a half of intensive treatment. My boss was very supportive. Basically, I found it easier to have people know, so they weren’t making guesses, and I didn’t have to keep thinking of excuses and dodging concern when I was in hormone hell.

  37. Long time lurker*

    Can you get a job in finance (specifically with risk) that’s 9 to 5?

    I love models and math and the Black Scholes equation is the most advanced calculus I’ve seen with anything that was related to a professional occupation. I’d love a job involving that kind of stuff. But working more than 45 hours a week isn’t worth it for me. So… Is it possible to get a job like this with good work life balance?

    I’d like to know because if not, I won’t pursue it.

    1. Kali*

      I used to work in a call centre for a credit card company, and their risk team worked M-F, 9-5. I’m not sure if they did what you’re describing though, so maybe that’s not actually very helpful. :/

    3. London Actuary*

      I work as an actuary (in the UK – I think the US is similar) and most of the time my job is 9 – 5:30. You have to take exams but you get time off to study – I’m studying for one right now and I used Black Scholes around an hour ago!

      It’s very competitive to enter the profession but well worth it once you have a foot in the door! Actuaries work in many more fields than just pensions and life these days.

      1. Actuarial Octagon*

        US Actuary here. Agree with all of the above. I work 8 – 4:30 plus time to study during the work day. I work in retirement and there are other financial but not actuarial jobs and we all work a steady 40 hours per week. Consultant’s travel but gain flexibility so they still hit about 40.

    5. Leslie Knope*

      I’d look to an underwriting job in a Commercial Bank division of a larger bank. Those can be very 9 to 5. They won’t be as Black Scholes heavy, but you can get some of that modelling and risk side evaluation with the true “bankers hours”.

    6. Becky*

      Have you looked at risk modeling or risk analytics or even business intelligence? In my experience most of those are generally 9-5 jobs.

  38. Karlie Floss*

    Thank goodness, I need you guys!

    Does anyone know of a product that can sit under a computer monitor to stop it from shaking, like some kind of IT shock absorber? I work in an old building with poor construction and the entire floor moves constantly. I do zoomed-in detail work frequently, and it’s like trying to read in a moving car. The nausea and headaches are constant. (No, they won’t move my desk, or do anything else to help. I’ve officially complained up the chain with no luck. I’m on my own.)

    Extensive Googling only finds tips on how to deal with a flickering monitor, not the entire computer being physically shaken.

    Any brainstorming would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Squeeble*

      Oh wow. Maybe you could set some heavy but malleable things on top of the monitor base? I’m thinking, like, sandbags but it’d have to be something cleaner than that.

    4. fposte*

      How big a foot does it have? Does it have enough clearance that fans aren’t a problem? If so, I’d probably try some foam or gel padding underneath it, trying to dampen the wiggle rather than to fix it in place.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I’m thinking felt squares. You can get a stack of them for a few bucks at the craft store. They would be soft enough to be absorbent, but still firm enough to provide support.
        But it’s the “neck” of the computer stand that amplifies the shaking. There must be something for use on boats and trucks and things. I wonder what the super spies use while they are driving around in unmarked vans?

        1. fposte*

          Oh, you’re right that it’s the neck itself. So we need the computer equivalent of a yaw damper (which is so fun to say it almost is a solution in its own right).

    5. anon24*

      Would it be possible to get something rubber or foam to set underneath the monitor? I’m wondering if you could get a one or more small rubber mats that you could cut and stack to absorb some of the movement.

    7. LCL*

      Here are my brainstorming unproven ideas of things to place under your monitor. Go to your local sporting goods store and buy a package of flooring meant for gyms. A small package. I use that stuff on slippery floors for my dog. Some of it is shock absorbent. Or, buy a yoga mat if you can find a cheap one, cut it up as appropriate and slide it underneath. Or try one of those allegedly shock absorbent mats meant for standing on. Prices on those vary wildly from low tens to over 100 dollars. Or google foam supplier to find one near you and buy some closed cell foam and try it. Or if there is no money at all, try multiple thicknesses of cardboard held together with duct tape around the edges under the monitor.

  39. Ignored*

    I’ve been at my govt job for four months. I’m an assistant teapot maker. There is a teapot maker but I do not report to that person nor do I assist that person. I have an assistant title merely because of my experience level and longevity in the organization. I report to the teapot designers who report to the teapot head designer. I noticed when I started that the teapot maker was cold towards me. Chalked it up to personality. And then she refused to train me or hand over duties that are supposed to be mine. And then the teapot designers started acting cold and stopped talking to me. No one has ever told me about any work issues. The head teapot designer gives me praise and has said I’m doing a great job. I got tired of the coldness one day and mentioned it to the office manager who said she was afraid this might happen. Turns out the teapot maker is really upset that my position does not report to her. She drove out my predecessor (I was misled about why that person left) by bulling, ignoring and leading the teapot designers to believe the predecessor was not competent. The head teapot designer apologized to me last week and said, this is not how I want my office to run, I will fix this. When I get back from a week long trip. So my being ignored has continued. I have no idea what the boss will do next week, if anything. I cannot continue working in a space where I am ignored, even when I speak. How do I navigate this?

    1. WellRed*

      Wait, if you speak to one of your coworkers they…ignore you?? What is this middle school? If it impacts your work, I’d focus on that next (though I sympathize with the isolation) and tell the head teapot designer how it impedes my job. I suppose you could also try saying something in the moment to the next coworker who ignores you. “have I done something to offend you?”

      1. Ignored*

        Yes, I am ignored by three people in our office. The ring leader adds groans and ugh’s when I walk by. It’s incredibly demoralizing. The office manager and head teapot designer both said it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with the teapot maker being upset that she’s not my boss. I have plenty more examples of her crappy treatment of me. The office manager and head teapot designer both said it would be taken care of. I just don’t know how they can do that. They can’t make someone talk to me. They can’t all of a sudden create a nicer work environment.

        1. WellRed*

          How awful! All though frankly, ringleader is just proving the point that she would suck as a manager of people. They CAN sit her down and tell her she needs to knock it off. Frankly, do you have anything to lose next time she groans and ughs by saying “Why do you do that?”

        2. Specialk9*

          Document every interaction – date, time, description. Keep it off-site. Tell your boss that you are experiencing a hostile work environment and that you expect the manager to fire the people doing this. I mean, it’s going nuclear, but it’s not like you’re keeping this job anyway. It actually paradoxically makes you harder to fire, though they still can, and increases the likelihood of a settlement.

      2. KR*

        Yeah, I think Ignored could potentially address this themselves by calling the coworker out. “Excuse me, did you hear me? Where is the spout lacquer?” “Teapot maker, did you get my email regarding the teapot design and the follow up emails? We really need to work on this.” “You seem to be ignoring me, have I done something to offend you?” “I don’t mean to be rude, but do you have hearing difficulties? I don’t know sign language but maybe I could write something down and we could communicate that way.” “You really seem to not like me, Fergus, because you ignore me when I speak to you and act very cold to me when you’re very friendly to Belinda. I hope I haven’t done anything to upset you – please tell me if I have as I’d like to apologize. ” Fergus will be the one clearly looking like a jerk.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah. Call them on it.
          They think they are getting even with TPTB in reality they are going to push an innocent bystander out of a job.
          Explain to them that you did not cause this problem, taking it out on you is misplaced anger. Meanwhile you can’t lose this job because you have [responsibilities].

          Do your self a favor. Lose a grip on the idea that the boss can’t make people talk to you. Yeah, she can, she just isn’t doing it yet. But, it’s HER problem to figure this out, not yours.
          If you decide to talk to them tell her what you are doing before you do it.
          Set a time frame, if this does not get better by 3 months or whatever, start looking to move on.

  40. Virgimates*

    Tbh, I’m mostly just ranting here, but I would like some feedback, since I’m still finding my way around professional norms now, nevermind back then.

    Back in 2012, I worked for a fairly large media company. The contract was temp-to-perm.

    During training, our trainer said goodbye to one of her coworkers with “bye, love ya!”, and then explained to us that she wasn’t gay, they were just friends. This prompted a discussion amongst other members of the training group with “of course you’re not gay! Lesbians are *insert-stereotype-here*!”.

    I spoke to the trainer about this, and she started with “I’m not being funny, but there was a gay guy in the group who isn’t upset about it.” She did do an exercise about prejudice with us after this, citing that homophobic comments had been made, but it didn’t seem to make a difference.

    A week later, I overheard a discussion between another two members of my group about why lesbians are lesbians. Apparently, it’s because they used over-large sex toys and real men couldn’t satisfy them. I didn’t mention this to the trainer.

    When we finally started working, I was in the same departments as the guy from that last paragraph. We were on the phones, working with the technicians. We had different managers, and worked on opposite sides of the office, about ten metres apart. I overheard him loudly ask “you know the female technicians? Do you think they all look like d*kes?”.I mentioned this to his manager, on the grounds that, if I could hear him across the room, he might be audible to any of the technicians on the phones. His manager came back to me with “he’s sorry, he didn’t know you were gay”, which strikes me as a really bad way to handle it.

    A while later, I had a meeting with my manager and the contact from the temp agency we were actually employed by. I asked if it would be possible to do more training on protected characteristics, like gender and sexuality, since the only training we’d been given was some online stuff about ageism. I can’t remember what my manager said, but the temp contact said “you’re the only one who’s ever had this problem”, and that she thought it was easier to tell someone’s age than their gender over the phone.

    Anyway, my temp contract wasn’t extended to permanent. A lot of that is completely on me; I’ve always been a bit socially awkward and didn’t fit in well in other ways – which reading this blog has helped with! – and, I’m embarrassed to say, I began a relationship with one of the techs and genuinely didn’t realise it wasn’t appropriate to call him from work. We’d been encouraged to call the techs as much as possible – hitting a specific amount of phone time with them was one of the measured statistics – and I didn’t realise they’d classify these as personal calls, though in hindsight, it’s completely obvious to me why it was inappropriate and I’m embarrassed that I didn’t work it out myself. I was upset about losing the job at the time, but I now realise I wouldn’t have been happy there due to culture fit anyway.

    That paragraph was mostly for catharsis. Anyway; is there any way I could have handled the complaints about sexuality better? It seems to me that this branch of the company was SO bad that there wasn’t much I could do beyond escalating to legal action, quitting, or accepting that it was part of the job…but, considering how that job ended, I’m inclined to find reasons to think badly of them anyway justified or not.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, gross. “Hey, could we not use that term? There’s a reason stuff like that’s illegal.” If you’re not in a state where it is technically illegal, it’s up to you if you want to audibly or silently add “in a lot of the U.S.”

      I think especially if you’re a temp or a newbie you’re likelier to get a lot better traction making specific and individual requests than suggesting the whole office needs training of some kind; that’s a thought that really needs a fair bit of leverage behind it.

      1. Virgimates*

        You have a point about the training; I was picturing just some online activities being uploaded, but even that may have been a bit much. My intention was to try to think of some solutions, so I wasn’t just telling them about problems, but they may well have sounded like demands.

        I didn’t feel able to speak up, since they were all conversations I overheard (though they were very clearly audible to a good chunk of the office). I can’t picture a way of doing that without looking confrontational. Maybe I could have put it through on the interoffice chat? Though I can’t think of a way I could have done that with the right tone. Thank you for your thoughts, I shall muse more.

        Incidentally, we’re in the UK, though I think that sort of thing is also illegal here!

        1. SarahKay*

          Yes, definitely illegal in the UK. It’d be considered harassment related to a protected characteristic (age, disability, gender reassignment, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation) under the Equality Act 2010. This includes things like abusive or threatening comments, jokes or behaviour.
          I agree that as a new start I wouldn’t want to comment on an overheard conversation; it’d feel really awkward. Although I’d certainly do it now – and have done so, although not about anything as egregious as this.
          The only thing I can think of that you could have done then would be googling something like ‘workplace discrimination in the UK’ (which is what I just did to get the details here) to be sure you’re clear on what you’re saying then talking to the manager and pointing out that you’re concerned by some of the comments you’ve heard because they’re putting the company in a bad place legally. If they do nothing you *could* re-iterate your concerns by email because then there’s a ‘paper’ trail, which makes it harder for the manger to claim in future that they were unaware, or you could take it to HR, if there is an HR department. But…in a temp position, you’d be vulnerable to them just letting you go. It’s also not legal for them to let you go because of a complaint like that, but what are your chances of proving it?
          But to be honest, that whole place sounds wildly toxic, and a discrimination case waiting to happen. On a temp contract, I’d be inclined to just see if the temp company couldn’t get me somewhere else, ASAP.

    2. Stop That Goat*

      “I’m not being funny, but there was a gay guy in the group who isn’t upset about it.”

      Yuck. Like one gay guy determines whether something is offensive for everyone. Honestly, it sounds like you may have dodged a bit of a bullet. Those comments are pretty outlandish.

      1. Virgimates*

        I think I remember it so vividly because it was just *that* bad. I do wish my own behaviour hadn’t been bad enough for my contract to be ended…but, realistically, it wasn’t the work place for me anyway. Thanks for helping me to unpack this!

        Oh, I just remembered another warning sign. During training, we did call listening. The trainer placed me with one staff member who, as soon as she left, physically wheeled my chair to another worker while I was in it, said “you work with her” and then walked off. Another staff member refused to let me call listen with him because “you won’t be working on this area”. Spoiler; I ended up in his team and covered his region when he was off.

    3. Specialk9*

      That’s really bad. Ugh. People who moan about PC are deeply invested in pretending (or convincing others) that this stuff doesn’t still happen.

        1. Virgimates*

          We’re in the UK, but I’ll definitely look into whether we have a similar system if I end up anywhere like that again!

  41. FDCA In Canada*

    I’ve had a bit of a frustrating experience interviewing–I’m in the process of interviewing for a remote position, and did a phone interview, did an exercise, and they asked me to come in-person to a final interview at a location about 4 hours away from me. This was rescheduled once, and then they emailed me again about 3am the night before asking if I could push it back three hours. That was fairly inconvenient for me and I asked if the original date was at all possible, and they said no. So I made it work and had a very long day of driving for a 20-minute interview, and after all that they weren’t able to give me a firm date on when I could expect to hear back from them.

    I know the hiring process can be hairy, but this level of disorganization is freaking me out a little bit. I do feel like I did well and I won’t be surprised if they offer me the job, but I’d like to have a close look at the benefit information and details before I say anything. I do have a job offer from Starbucks (cue the mocking as a millennial stereotype), which I’m planning on going ahead and starting, but this remote job has really got me questioning the whole process.

    1. Triplestep*

      Their inconsiderate recruiters could be a sign of greater disorganization in the company, or they could just be incompetent. I recently had an experience where a recruiter ghosted me – GHOSTED – because I could not make the one time she told me I could meet with the hiring manager. I told her this immediately and gave her my availability, but to no avail. It was as if she never had a candidate who was already employed before.

      If I didn’t know people within the company, I would have thought the entire organization was like this one person. But I know a really stand-up guy who works there, and he knows the hiring manager who he vouches for. I ended up taking a different job, but I would have pursued with the knowledge that this unprofessional recruiter does not represent something systemic in the company.

      In your shoes, I would let it play out; don’t eliminate yourself from consideration, and go get trained at Starbucks. If you get the remote role, you might even be able to fill in late nights or weekends with Starbucks and make some extra money. It’s not like you have to get up early for a long drive – you can go to work in your PJs!

      1. FDCA In Canada*

        Oh yeah, I’m definitely going to continue letting it roll–I sent out my thank-you notes and all that–but I’m hoping that it might be like other jobs I’ve had, where the hiring process is kind of a mess, but working there normally is not a problem at all. A headache from the front end for sure, but you can’t know that from the outside!

  42. Triplestep*

    Some of you have commented on a previous Friday post I made about a job offer with contingencies; A background check and a pre-employment health screen performed onsite. (Healthcare facility). I had asked the in-house recruiter to e-mail me once I had cleared the contingencies, and she replied that the results of the background check would not be back until after my start date. So it was clear that they expect you to give notice and leave your current role without the results, and that they fire you if you don’t pass. I have an offer in writing including start date, filled out pre-employment paperwork, and passed my health screen.

    I just wanted to report back that I decided to go ahead and play by their rules, and I gave notice earlier this week. My rationale for starting before the background check is complete are as follows:
    1. I read some of the archives here and note that it’s not uncommon.
    2. They can get rid of me any time for any reason anyway. They can give me a 90 day trial and fire me on day 89. They can also fire me on day 91.
    3. Hopefully on the very slim chance my report turns anything up, they’ll hear me out or let me correct it. I’m don’t have a criminal record, I didn’t lie about credentials, and have excellent credit. The only thing they might turn up is a dispute I’m having with my city over excise tax.

    Just wanted to say thanks to those who weighed in!

    1. anna green*

      Thank you so much, this is so helpful. I just received an offer yesterday with those exact contingencies and I was nervous to accept for those reasons but I didnt see that I really had a choice. I did end up accepting and I feel better knowing its common and also I dont really expect any trouble. Thanks and good luck!

      1. Triplestep*

        It’s pretty common to have a background check, and for healthcare facilities, the added health screen. Some places have drug tests. But any time I’ve been subject to a pre-employment background check, my start date is set *after* the results come in. This employer expects you to give notice and leave your current employer to start with them before the results are back.

        Anna, the best possible scenario is to wait to give notice until after you’ve cleared your contingencies. It just happens not to be standard where I am going.

        Congrats on your new job!

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks, and thanks again for your responses last week.

        I’d made up my mind over the weekend, and then on Monday I heard from the hiring manager. (This was after you’d helped me see it wasn’t a big deal that she hadn’t reached out yet, no matter what expectations the recruiter had set.) We spoke the next day :-)

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Congrats on the new job!
      Yes, this is quite normal. I recently gave my 2 week notice but during that time I also had to submit a drug test and get a background check with NewJob. I had no worries on either front, and indeed this is usually the case with offers and start dates. Generally, they are only looking for criminal records unless you’re applying for some type of government or teaching job which might be more stringent in requirements.

      If you did have anything amiss on your record, I you should bring it up well before the agreed-upon start date (for instance, a personal bankruptcy when applying for some finance jobs) and ask if that would affect an offer and/or adjust your notice/start date accordingly. It’s rare, but from reading this blog we all know that there are nasty surprises where job offers can be pulled over these things.

    2. Murphy*

      “I hate numbers” HAHA!

      I totally did #2 at a meeting today…but everyone else in the room was way above me, so I didn’t want to overstep.

  44. No more admin roles*

    I am trying to transition out of admin work and am unsure on how to list three jobs at the same company on my resume, given that two roles are exactly the same but with different titles and with a different role in between the similar ones. I originally started out in an admin role and was promoted to the Cup/Teapot Assistant role. Unfortunately, it was not a good move for the replacement in my role or for me so senior management wanted me to move back to my original position. I was also more interested in Teapot-related duties but the position was heavily focused on Cups, where I had difficulty. Following a restructuring, I was moved back to my original position but my title was rephrased (so not better or worse, just a similar but odd title). In the rephrased admin title, my duties remained exactly the same as when I was in the first position. I currently have the positions listed as: Company Name in bold, with Titles 1’s dates, Title 3’s dates and then bullet points for the two roles. Then I have Cups/Teapot Assistant (position changed due to organizational restructure), dates and bullet points specific to Cups/Teapots.

    I’m currently applying for Teapot Assistant roles so I don’t want to leave that exact title off my resume, but I also don’t want to scare future employers that might be wondering why I was “demoted” and moved back to my original position.

    I also did lots of Cups/Teapot work when in Titles 1 & 3, so would that make a difference in how I list my accomplishments?

    Sorry for the vagueness with titles, but want to keep anon!

    1. Specialk9*

      I worked for years for the same company, on so many projects, and my roles changed over the years. I lumped them together where applicable because it cut way down on the length and communicated my experience better.

      So if Teapot Designer and Teapot Modulator are basically the same job, my title would be “Teapots Inc, Antarctic City
      Teapot Designer/Modulator (2013 – 2016)” and then have the bullets under.

      Then Teapot Evangelist would have it’s own subsection under Teapots Inc, with its own bullets. I use same font but different size and italics to differentiate between the company name and positions.

  45. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I’m trying to resign from a volunteer position and no one will respond to me. I do reference checks for my dog rescue, entirely email-based and from home (I moved several states away from where the rescue is located), but after a very frustrating summer of applications and some other issues, I decided to stop. A few weeks ago I sent an email to the woman who handles all of our applications telling her I would stop doing references after October 31st– that would give us plenty of time to find a new volunteer and let me train him/her. No response. I emailed another address for her, still no response. I emailed someone else, no response. I emailed someone else on the staff to give her a heads up, and SHE responded, but I don’t think she’s been in touch with the applications coordinator. I am seriously frustrated, but I don’t want to just ghost at the end of October. Have I done my due diligence? What would you do?

    2. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      maybe send one more email to the overall head. Otherwise, you’re good. To be kind, write out what you do and how you do it and send it to all of them. The fact that they’re disorganized is not your problem.

    3. SophieChotek*

      I agree with a Little Teapot. Write again to overall head, etc. Then maybe re-affirm your end date (with instructions, etc.) to everyone you have already emailed and be done…if they this disorganized, that is on them. I get volunteer has an entirely different “feel” or “obligations” sense sometime…but they will have to find another volunteer (or do it themselves).

    4. JN*

      Sounds like you’ve done quite a bit. Personally, I’d give it one more try. Is there an organization head person or governing board you can contact? Perhaps by phone rather than email? If so, then I think that if you reached out to them and shared your efforts to ensure a smooth transition, that you could then consider due diligence to have been completed. Ultimately, however much admiration and commitment you may have to this volunteer group, you have no control over their organization or lack of it.

    6. Beancounter Eric*

      As much as I prefer e-mail, go to paper with this.

      Draft a resignation letter, mail with return receipt service, and at close of business 31 October, done. Costs you a little time and a couple of dollars postage, but you can stop with a very clear conscience.

  46. Typhon Worker Bee*

    I have a new job! Starting Nov 1st as a Knowledge Translation Specialist – doing science outreach and communication in a field about which I’ve already written a pop-sci book. I’m essentially expanding my favourite parts of my current job (which is about 10% of what I do, because they don’t allow people to specialize), plus a long-standing hobby / side gig, into 100% of my new job. Everyone I tell about the new position asks if they created it just for me; they didn’t, but the job description definitely read that way, and I got to take my book to the interview with me (I did an internal mic drop at that point). Plus more money and an option to flex my schedule to get every second Friday off. I *might* even get to take the best parts of my current job with me (my new team collaborates closely with one of my current teams). Definitely worth the stress of moving house and interviewing for a new job in the same week!

    I do have a question about how to deal with working at two different sites – I’m going to have a desk/cubicle in two different offices, at a university campus and a hospital that are about 10 km apart (connected by a free staff shuttle, as well as good transit and bike lane options). Part of the raison d’être for the new position is to create better connections between teams at the two sites. I feel like this set-up might be a double-edged sword… how do I prevent problems around people not knowing where I am / if I’m even working, that kind of thing? Is it best to set a fixed schedule as to which days I spend in which office, or to be flexible week by week? There are probably things I haven’t even thought about yet… Any insights and advice appreciated!

    1. MuseumMusings*

      That sounds absolutely fantastic – congrats! Do both offices share a chat client? If so, you could set your status to say which office you’re at, but you’ll have to remember to update it!

      As for a schedule, I think a fixed schedule will be easier for your coworkers to remember, but if you can, I’d set my calendar settings so that everyone could see them and then mark on my calendar when I’d be in which office.

      I’d also set up an autoresponder for the days you’re out, so clients and coworkers alike know when you’re off that second Friday (which sounds so awesome!). Just something like, “Thanks for emailing me! I am not available the 2nd Friday of the month, but I’ll get back to you [day you start your week again]. If you have an urgent request or emergency, contact X.” or something to that effect.

      Automation and schedules will be your friend. Best of luck!

    2. JN*

      If you can have a fairly consistent schedule for each office, that might be ideal both for you and for your coworkers in both locations. They’ll know roughly when you’re going to be with them (days/times) and *you’ll* know where you’re supposed to be. Does the university and/or hospital use a shared calendar feature? My university does, and people within the office share their Outlook calendars with each other, so we can see scheduled time off, meetings, etc. Even when someone is out for a “private appointment” of an unspecified nature. Very convenient for scheduling office meetings and coordinating staffing coverage.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      I’d fix at least 4 hours in each office each week. That way they know a time you will definitely be available. Also you can share out your calendar so people can find you if they need you.

    4. Typhon Worker Bee*

      Thanks all – I will make figuring out the shared calendar system my top priority!

      Oh, and by the way, I was the OP who asked about URLs in resumes (link below). I ended up including four URLs, and I kept the hyperlinks but removed the underlining and changed the colour to a darker blue. They said they loved my CV, but didn’t comment on the hyperlink formatting :) Thanks again to Alison for answering my trivial little question, and to the commenters who provided ideas too!

    5. Mimmy*

      Commenting to ask: What *exactly* is Knowledge Translation? I’ve seen the term and have always wanted to understand what it means. A “For Dummies” explanation would be helpful :)

      1. Typhon Worker Bee*

        It’s essentially turning research findings into tangible benefits – e.g. new health policies, educational tools, direct communication with clinical practitioners / patients and their families / journalists / educators / the public

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I work with a few people who move around quite a bit in the course of their work day. They look at email religiously and answer their phone as much as they can. I always know they will bubble to the surface within a few hours, they are that reliable.

  47. Spidersinmyattic*

    So I start a new job this coming Monday (yay!) after being out of work for almost a year – the environment seems nice from the interview and the role is fine (a little step back) but the money is terrible. I also just got notified that I have an interview elsewhere for a dream job next weekend.

    If, and it’s a big if, I were to be offered the dream job, is there a non-flaky way to call it quits with the first job?

    1. JN*

      I think you would have a few options. You could frame it as realizing that this new job just wasn’t a good fit. Or that this other opportunity came up and just couldn’t be passed up. Timing does suck a bit, but so much of the job hunting process is outside our control, and like you said, there’s no guarantee that the interview at dream company will actually end up with a job offer, so keeping on with this no-so-dream new job in the meantime is better than nothing.

    2. A.N.O.N.*

      You can say that you had applied to this other job before you got the one there, and that this is an opportunity you just can’t pass up. Say it apologetically, give two weeks notice. They might be a little miffed but will probably understand. These things happen. Worst case scenario they take it badly and you burned this bridge, but you’ll leave them off your resume anyway.

  48. Malibu Stacey*

    Do you have any pet peeves that your coworkers do that drive you bonkers even though it’s not that big of a deal? Mine is people who send IMs for things that aren’t urgent.

    1. Emily S.*

      YES.

      The girl who sits at the desk closest to mine clips her nails at her desk. I find the sound so annoying!

      1. Janelle*

        This disgusts me. I cannot believe people do this in public. This chick who annoyed me anyway used to do this and each click was like a nail being driven into my head. Ahhh.

    2. anon24*

      I’ve had co-workers who chewed with their mouths open. An old boss way back in the day was constantly eating (kept crackers or pretzels in his pockets) and he chewed with his mouth open and smacked his lips. One day I very nearly threw up on his shoes.

      1. KatieKate*

        I hate this!!

        Someone just responded to a request I made with “Here you go…” and I want to tear my hair out!

      2. Clever Name*

        I do this sometimes. In my mind it means my thought is trailing off. People read it as condescending?? I’m horrified. :(

        1. Not So NewReader*

          In school I remember being told ellipses mean “fill in with other words here”. I don’t know where that came from but it stuck in my head. I didn’t use them that much because I didn’t want people thinking there was more to my sentence but I did not write it.

          I can kind of see people using ellipses to soften a message but probably picking different words would accomplish that instead of using the dots.

      3. Ghost Town*

        Our liaison in the marketing department always addresses me as “Miss Ghost” and uses ellipses in place of periods. All. The. Time. Gets me irrationally angry every time.

    5. Essie*

      How much time you got? :p

      The Candy Dish Finger Licker
      The Whistler Whose Repertoire is Only the Beach Boys
      The Rhythm-Deficient Beatboxer
      The Profane Novelty Mug Guy
      The Soup Grunter
      The Pocket Pool Shark

        1. Essie*

          Imagine the stereotypical satisfaction noise after gulping down a soft drink in a commercial, only more…phlegmy. Slurp a spoonful – grunt. Slurp a spoonful – grunt.

    6. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Other engineers who have lots of conference calls who insist on using speakerphone instead of a headset. We are cubicle-bound. There are several conference rooms with doors, but, (a) most are large and (b) if the call is long with lots of entities on a project, I can understand wanting to be at ones own desk and multi-task while waiting for a topic where ones attention is needed. In the meanwhile, everyone near them gets to hear all about it.

      1. Janelle*

        Oh god. Anyone who uses speakerphone ever pretty much drives me nuts. I get it for a conference call but otherwise it is just ridiculous. I once wrote an employee up over it because he would not stop regardless of how many times I asked him to. I couldn’t hear my own conversations because his flipping speaker phone was blaring so loud all day.

        Don’t even get me started about people in public places on speaker phone. Put phone to head butthead. No one wants to hear it.

        1. Windchime*

          Yeah, what is this about anyway? There is a guy that rides my bus who holds the phone up very close to his face and listens on speakerphone, then shouts his answer back. The phone is like 3 inches from your ear! Take it off speaker and put it to your ear! So annoying.

          1. schnauzerfan*

            I have a hearing problem. My cell feeds directly into my hearing aids and all is good. But, office phone next to ear causes hideous feedback. Can’t hear caller. Phone on speaker? I can hear. I’m sorry for everyone who ends up stuck listening to my conversations. I encourage people to email, text, call my cell, let me know you’ll be calling so I can take the call somewhere private, but what can you do? Folks will persist in calling.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        The manager at Exjob who had an office (with a DOOR) near my cubicle but who liked to have long speakerphone conversations with the door open and the volume on high. >_<

    7. Janelle*

      An old coworker cleared her throat constantly. I mean ever two seconds. I did in fact count once during a meeting. She only does this at work not any other time. I sat next to her and nearly jabbed a pen in her throat once just to clear that scratchy throat up. Ok I didn’t but it crossed my mind.

    8. Stephern*

      When you send an email to someone asking if they prefer Process A or Process B and they reply: YES.

      And then I need to follow up asking if the “Yes” applies to A or B, which makes me feel stupid.

        1. Future Analyst*

          Ooh, I like that. I just go back and highlight what I wrote, and say “can you confirm which option you’d like?”

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

        Do you work with my mother in law? She does this all the time.

    9. Temperance*

      Whistling and humming. I hate noise, and whistling just gets under my skin.

      At my first job, there was a gross guy who would whistle while walking down the hallway, very loudly, and he would occasionally pass gas. Also very loudly. So I think I now associate whistling with farting, and being disgusting in general.

    11. Murphy*

      I have a visceral reaction to the phrase “please advise” in emails. I don’t know why.

      But there’s a woman who has an office near me (I’m in an open office area) who doesn’t close her door when she’s using speakerphone. She’ll check her voicemail, or be on a conference call, all with her door open.

      There’s also another person with an office near me. He gets a lot of calls on his cell phone, which he’s set up so that it picks up when he says “Answer.” It doesn’t work every time, so sometimes it’s like *cell phone ringing* “Answer…Answer…ANSWER!”

    12. Jukeboxx32*

      I work for the state, suffice to say people are bored here:

      The guy in the cube next to me constantly sends me links to old movie trailers asking me if I’ve seen them… YES I’ve seen The Village. We’ve all seen The Village! It came out in 2004! Stop coming over to talk about it! And nobody cares if you “spoil it”! Ah!

      The guy next to him that makes me take my headphones off so that he can rant at me about Marvel fanfiction. I am not into comics and have no idea what he’s talking about. But he’s on a mission to educate me. “What if Plastic Man had said THIS instead”?!

      People that reply to auto-replies and call me to find out what they did wrong.

      The twenty minute witch hunt that happened yesterday to find out who put fancy heavy weight paper in the printer. Then the afternoon long gossip session that followed in it’s wake.

    13. Mimmy*

      The coworker who goes on and on and on and on when giving his report during case conferences! O.M.G. we only have 50 minutes to get through reports from 6-8 people…quit babbling and get to the point!

    14. zora*

      Some of my coworkers have Very Loud Phone Voices. Way louder than their regular speaking voices, and yet they complain about the OTHER people who have loud phone voices!! I always want to reply with “Pot… Kettle…” but I bite my tongue.

      Also the person who always eats lunch at her desk, and then puts the dirty empty container/utensils on the shared table next to her desk immediately, and it sits there for the rest of the day until she leaves to go home. I know you like to work hard, but it takes 2 minutes to either throw stuff away, or rinse it out and put it in your bag to take home. Why do we all have to deal with your dirty dishes all day?

    15. MissDisplaced*

      JUST a moment please.
      Oh my tons… The throat-clearing lady. Betty Rubble laugh lady. Loud donkey laugh guy.
      Sneezy.
      Dopey.
      Sleepy.
      Constantly Sicky.
      Stinky wet shoe guy (but only when it rains) otherwise he’s ok.

    16. Lissa*

      Indirect, vague answers to yes/no questions in email, so I have to send multiple emails to clarify and look like a pain/nag. It’s hard not to think some of these people are being deliberately obtuse…

  49. JJJJShabado*

    We had a client in the office this week and there was a group lunch (5 from my company and 1 client) with him that I was a part of. I haven’t been to something like this before. Earlier in the week, there was a sheet where we listed our lunch order. I got it near the end and I didn’t want to order the most expensive lunch of the group. Basically everyone ordered ½ chicken souvlakis. If I had my choice, I would have ordered a ½ or whole beef soulvaki (which would have been $1 more or $3.24 more; $6.75 for ½ chicken, $7.75 for ½ beef or $9.99 for whole beef). How conscious of price should I be in an ordering situation like this? I wound up getting a ½ gyro souvlaki, which was the same price as the chicken.

    2. Malibu Stacey*

      I coordinate lunch orders like this for my office and I wouldn’t think much of it if you ordered the most expensive thing once or twice. But I have one coworker who will basically try to order his dinner to take home as well so I know if he’s included in the lunch, I order for someplace that let’s me create a group order with a cap per person.

    3. CAA*

      As the person who is always ordering roast beef sandwiches while everyone else orders turkey, I think anything that’s within 20% and/or $2 of the typical order will not make you stand out in a bad way. In this case, the 1/2 beef is 15% more and $1 more, so it meets either criteria. The whole beef is 48% and $3.24 more, so it might be more noticeable.

    4. rl*

      at my office, i wouldn’t think twice about ordering a more expensive sandwich. no one would blink. we don’t have unlimited budget, but if we’re ordering sandwiches, and everyone gets a sandwich, no one polices the prices of the individual sandwiches. if you asked for 2 sandwiches, or a sandwich and an entree salad, or a whole pizza for yourself, i’m sure it would raise a few eyebrows. but unless you’re told about a cap, and you’re sticking to the same category of food as your colleagues, i wouldn’t worry about picking a more expensive lunch!

    5. AJennifer*

      If they’re putting out a menu with lunch options, assume choosing any of those options is okay and order what you’d like for lunch and nothing more.

    6. Lissa*

      I think ordering the 1/2 beef would be fine, it’s only a $1 difference and beef vs. chicken is a preference thing. But I don’t think I’d order a whole one if everyone else had ordered a half. Not that there’s anything wrong with doing it but I feel like it’d stand out to order more than everyone else in a way that just ordering the same size/different thing wouldn’t.

  50. I'm A Little TeaPot*

    I started a full job search this week, as opposed to the “I’m looking, but it’s summer so everyone’s on vacation and I know it, so basically not doing anything until fall.” I’m pretty lucky in my field- recruiters are very heavily used, which makes the logistics of a job search much easier in some respects. Currently working with 3 different ones, and am being presented (applying) at 5 companies so far. Wish me luck!

  51. Jojo*

    Long story short, the project I was hired for at a small company has been reassigned to an outside third party and now I barely have any responsibilities. My boss seems slightly overwhelmed with her workload, is 9 ½ months pregnant and training her temporary replacement, so naturally my work would be on the back burner in her mind. I want to stay here for another 2 years and afford my MBA tuition without loans but I’m feeling underutilized, bored, and stalled by not learning anything to grow in my career. My current plan is to wait until my boss comes back from maternity leave before making any decisions but I guess my question is, should I be job searching? I know she doesn’t want to lose me and is trying to keep me on for big things but I don’t know how much longer I can last not having a purpose here in my current role. Am I being too needy and should just accept things until I can responsibly leave in 2 years? Should I just leave and fast track my MBA then start job searching after graduation? I wanted to stay for growth and experience but I don’t know if that is something I have with this company anymore.

    1. Celeste*

      Try to talk with her before she goes out on leave. She may have some work for you to do under the temporary replacement. I don’t know how long of a leave she plans on taking, but 8 weeks sounds like a safe bet. I don’t feel like you are going to become unmarketable in that amount of time, if you need to wait for her to come back in order to have a project. But do ask for work. Nobody wants to sit around all day.

      1. Jojo*

        I finished my portion of the project about 9 months ago and tried to find other work to do in my department by asking her and my coworkers during this span but it was met with her telling me “I know you won’t always have work to do, so I don’t mind if you play around on Facebook.” I don’t want to feel like I’m harassing her when that was such an obvious dismissal. And I specifically asked if she would be open to letting me watch her do the budgeting process (something she has to train her replacement on anyways and something I’m extremely interested in but only comes around once a year) and I was met with might’s and maybe’s and she trained her replacement on it without me yesterday. I just don’t know what to do anymore…

        1. W31RD0*

          Is there some self-study work you could benefit from at this time? Even learning something general like buying an MS Excel book and maybe even getting the certification. It might not be completely relevant, but I’m sure it might show your boss that you are a self-starter.

          1. Jojo*

            I really like the idea of getting the excel certification! I’m already the office go-to for excel questions so getting an actual certification would be really handy for a resume builder. As of right now, I’ve been doing my MBA class homework in the office to best utilize my time but I would like to work on something a little more professional and office experience related (one of the reasons I found AAM).

        2. W31RD0*

          Is there some self-study work you could benefit from at this time? Even learning something general like buying an MS Excel book and maybe even getting the certification. It might not be completely relevant, but I’m sure it might show your boss that you are a self-starter.

    2. Inspector Spacetime*

      It doesn’t cost you anything to look. If you don’t find anything good you can stay at your current job, and who knows, you may find the perfect thing!

  52. gingerbird*

    I am going to a picnic for my professional organization tommorow. What is appropriate to wear? It’s a picnic at an actual park.

    1. The Snark Knight*

      you can never go wrong with “business casual”. Just go a half-step down. Wear something that you don’t care if it gets something spilled on or otherwise ruined, but still looks good enough for a dress-down Friday.

    2. NaoNao*

      This is on the assumption that you’re wearing women’s clothes, but here goes:
      I would do a one-step from casual tee, something like you see at Ann Taylor—nice, heavy fabric perhaps with embroidery detail or a light weight pullover sweater in a bright color and sturdy fabric with a light top layered underneath.
      Then for the bottoms I’d do either capris or cropped jeans, or a midi length knit skirt (cotton or woven can sometimes be a magnet for stains or disasters). Midi length because you’ll be standing, bending, sitting in weird spots or perhaps cross legged, etc.
      For shoes, I would do fancy sneakers or cute hiking shoes, the flat all terrain kind, by Merrill or similar. Or if you have a pair of the Crocs flats or Melissa rubber flats, those could work too.
      I’d bring a spare shirt, a couple handiwipes, a hair tie, sunscreen, sunglasses, an umbrella, and if you’re wearing shoes with socks, a backup pair in case it rains or the ground is squishy and wet.
      For a purse, if you have a cotton or canvas bag, that could work to both hold your extras and be casual enough for a park outing.

  53. SophieChotek*

    Applying to same organization multiple times over the years?
    I think some people here have mentioned stories of having a “dream” company or a “good” company, etc. that they would like to work at but have applied more than once over the months/years?
    Did you get interviews but never get hired? Have you eventually landed a job there? Were you glad you did?

    1. nep*

      I’ll be interested in responses to / comments on this.
      I’m thinking of re-applying for a job for which I was rejected a few months back. (Didn’t even get to phone screen stage.) It’s being advertised again. I’ve read some on AAM and elsewhere about under what conditions it’s considered OK to re-apply.
      I don’t have new skills I could add to my application, but I do have ideas for how I can improve my application / answers to some screening questions. It’s a LONG shot, but I reckon, what have I got to lose? They can only turn me down again. Do I look ridiculous and desperate applying again?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I hope not because I just did that myself. I improved my resume layout and accomplishments to better highlight the relevant parts, and since the last time I found out that I have a connection to someone there so he’s been asked to look out for my application. Hopefully the improved presentation will make a difference, and if not, well I tried.

    2. DDJ*

      The system we use for tracking candidates shows every position that an applicant has ever applied for over…I think the last 5 years? So if I see that someone has applied to 3 or 4 similar positions, it doesn’t raise any red flags.

      If I see that a candidate has applied for 12-15 vastly different positions in multiple departments (true story), THAT’S when it’s a red flag. And I get that people have their dream company and just want to get a foot in the door, but as a hiring manager, if I see that you’ve applied for every position that’s come up over 4 years, I’m going to assume that you’re not really interested in the specific job I’m offering.

    3. Chicken Superhero*

      I applied to the FBI for 9 years running, hoping to get into their hazmat team. I passed the academic test (it was actually way harder than the State Dept test, which is usually the OMG so hard standard) and was working on my physical training – they have specific pushup and pullup requirements. Never did get the call. :(

      Honestly, I think it’s for the best. They had endemic funding problems – not, like, we can’t afford computers, but like we can’t afford to give new agents *email addresses*. That is some broke ass stuff there. And the agents I’ve met seem pretty unhappy and stressed, especially the women.

  54. The Snark Knight*

    I’m getting very annoyed at people being offended on my behalf. I have numerous handicaps including autism, a hearing impairment, and a some neuro-motor problems. I have had nearly five decades of coping with them so I get along fine with few accommodations required, if eve.

    Everything SHOULD be fine. The problem is I have to deal with people getting upset when jokes are made around me about my difficulties. I take it as the good natured ribbing it is intended to be, and I participate. These jokes are **not ** unwanted, I am **not** offended, but we have an office busy-body that tries to clamp down on it.

    The end result of this is that it is the busybody that is making me feel uncomfortable, not my colleagues who joke around with me. This has had a chilling effect and now I feel that I am being treated as “damaged goods” rather than the competent employee that I am.

    What would you do if you were in my situation?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Unfortunately, in a professional context, even if you’re okay with the jokes, there might be other people who hear them that are not okay with them. It’s possible the “busybody” has a loved one with a similar condition and finds the jokes offensive.

      1. The Snark Knight*

        No, just a busybody that is driving a wedge between me and my coworkers.

        I find it odd that I shouldn’t be able to joke about my own hardships as doing such is what allowed me to deal with them.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          There’s a difference between you joking about your hardships and other people making jokes about them in a public space.

          That being said, I think your most effective course of action is to speak up in the moment. Next time busybody says something, interrupt and say “I appreciate your support, but I don’t need you to speak for me. If I find something offensive, I will let people know.”

        2. geek*

          But there’s a different between YOU making jokes about your difficulties and other people making jokes about them – especially if they’re specific to your difficulties.

            1. geek*

              Because when you do it you’re in control of what’s being said. Other people may not know the line and may be far more serious than you think and are bullying you.

              1. The Snark Knight*

                I think I am intelligent enough to recognize when someone crosses a line and how to tell them they did so, but given the choice, I’d rather be bullied than infantilized.

                1. geek*

                  Are other people in the office being teased the same way? Is there general joking around the office about stuff everyone does? Maybe we need an example of the type of thing that your coworker is getting offended by.

                2. fposte*

                  It can be tricky, because I think there are definitely situations where it doesn’t matter if the recipient doesn’t mind; it still shouldn’t happen in the workplace. But it sounds like you’ve got a colleague who’s making protecting you her career, and it’s actually a disadvantage to be constantly framed as the person who needs protecting. I like Detective Amy’s wording; if that doesn’t seem to be getting heard, I’d bring out the “This behavior is actively harmful to me and my work here, and I’m asking you to stop.”

                3. Snark*

                  And, not to put too fine a point on it, it’s the little subtle social cues most folks with autism don’t pick up without a lot of practice, so….if you were being bullied in a subtle and deniable, ha-ha we’re all so chill about your autism (but not really) kind of way, how confident are you in your ability to distinguish that?

                4. Anion*

                  I personally would say something more along those lines to the busybody. As in, “I really do appreciate your concern, but I am capable of deciding for myself whether or not Bob has offended me, and of dealing with it myself if he has. If I ever need your help, I will tell you, but until then I’d appreciate it if you’d let me joke with my friends.”

                  And if they do it again, say, “Phyllis, when you step in like that it makes me feel like you think I’m not smart enough to understand what’s being said, and I’m honestly beginning to find it insulting. Can I ask you again to please stop interfering in my conversations?” You could even add something like, “The fact that I’m autistic doesn’t mean I don’t have a sense of humor,” or “The fact that I’m autistic doesn’t mean I need you to hold my hand. I can fight my own battles if the need ever arises.”

                  Because honestly, that’s what Phyllis is doing: not only treating you like a child, but telling everyone else that you’re not capable of knowing the difference between a friendly joke and an insult. That’s the kind of thing that might encourage some nastier elements to start picking on you–as well as potentially telling higher-ups that you wouldn’t be able to handle more nuanced work responsibilities.

    2. Backroads*

      I suppose I would first talk politely but frankly with the busybody about how you perceive the jokes and don’t mind a bit of good-natured roasting. It’s one of those things I work with my 2nd graders on (though from other end of the spectrum: good buddies understand each other enough to better know when to make such jokes. acquaintences not understand.

      I’m sure busybody means well, but if she is making this aura of awkwardness, then it is a problem. I don’t know if it’s HR worthy, but perhaps if it doesn’t stop or escalate…

      1. The Snark Knight*

        Thank you, the thing is that the jokes really do put people at ease. I can joke about having an autistic moment or about my autistic super-powers of focus, or “go ahead, talk in front of me, I won’t hear you anyway”. or when someone first finds out about my hearing and I ask them to move to my good side and they get embarrassed and say “Oh, I’m sorry”, and I say “It’s not your fault”. We both laugh and an awkward moment is turned into a bonding moment.

    3. Student*

      The employees making fun of you are opening the company up to legal liabilities. Every time they make such a “joke” about you, they give you the opportunity to sue the company.

      Even though you have decided, thus far, not to sue the company over it, the company has to consider these issues:
      (1) You could change your mind later (over some line they eventually cross, or over the same jokes as usual because you change your mind – say, you decide you want to quit and get a potential pay-day on your way out, or just get sick of the joke)
      (2) Other people can sue them over this, not just you. Maybe you have other co-workers with disabilities that are not as obvious or extreme as yours, or colleagues with kids/relatives with autism, etc., and they’re unhappy about it.

      Any good employee would try to get people to stop doing stuff that presents such a liability to the company. Think about it this way: If you were a manager, and you were expressly okay with your employees drinking alcohol and then driving company vehicles, or punching you int he face, that doesn’t mean the company is protected if your employees go do that and get someone hurt. You can’t personally bless them out of legal consequences for their actions -and there are legal consequences for this.

      1. geek*

        Another concern is if another employee with disabilities is ever hired and is NOT okay with any of the comments the coworkers may end up going “But The Snark Knight is okay with it!” – which is going to cause even more problems.

    4. Mari*

      You may actively enjoy the bonding, but there may be some liability issues due to ADA. Your company probably shouldn’t allow any comments made that could be considered disparaging or harassing (and the criteria is not what YOU personally find disparaging or harassing) as these could potentially be used by you (or anyone else) in a discrimination case. At our company, we are even discouraged from asking how old someone is or from making comments regarding their age (whether it is them being young or old since, in Oregon, age discrimination is not limited to 40+)…and I would love to joke about some of my coworkers just being kids since they don’t get my pop culture references!

      1. The Snark Knight*

        I find I more than slightly ironic that the only person who seems to have no input in this is the person who actually has the disabilities. Another reason why I despise the ADA.

    5. nonegiven*

      Complain about the busy body being condescending to you by jumping in on conversations she is not a part of.

    6. Chicken Superhero*

      You should talk with her – you make good points on how her defending you had impacts on you.

      But I think it’s important to keep your comments on discussions of disabilities personal. YOU don’t mind, and you have several disabilities, but you only speak for you. So you get to ask this woman to back down on your behalf, and explain how her actions impact you… but if the comments bother HER (or create a risk to the company), she still gets to speak up. You are not the only potential harm.

      I say this because on several previous comments I got that impression – that you went from ‘I don’t mind’ (which you 100% get to own) to ‘so other people shouldn’t mind – just don’t be so sensitive’ (which is not your call). Maybe I misread, but it’s a point to consider.

      Good luck navigating this one, it’s tricky, but good job looking to discuss it.

  55. Backroads*

    Teachers taking vacations during the school year: yay or nay?

    This seems to be controversial in the education community… what does the rest of the work world think?

    1. Emily S.*

      I don’t get why it’s a problem to have a sub for a week — as long as the sub is competent.

      BTW, I think off-season is the best time to travel.

      1. Observer*

        There is a HUGE difference between the regular teacher and a sub. My husband is a teacher, as is one of my children. They do not take off unless there is no way to work around it. No matter how good the sub, it’s quite disruptive.

        1. Emily S.*

          Point taken. I probably shouldn’t have even chimed in here, because I don’t really know.

    2. Jule*

      Do it, have a sub for the week, keep it vague with students (“out of town to see family”), and don’t post pictures of tequila shots in Cabo. That’s all I would ask as a parent.

    3. OlympiasEpiriot*

      I have never heard of that happening. I didn’t know schools allowed it. (Not talking about medical or family emergency leave, just vacations.)

      As a parent of a student, I make sure our family vacations happen within the bounds of the school breaks because even if my kid will be fine with a sheaf of assignments from the school, they are missing out on the sharing and learning that comes in a classroom setting. If I were homeschooling, obviously it would be different; but, in the school setting, I think about it as not only the student’s responsibility to be present for themselves, but also for their classmates.

      So, bearing that in mind, well, as an outsider, I’m thinking of the disruption that I’d imagine with a sub.

      When I was in university, I think I would have been completely insulted if the prof decided to take off during the semester. I put in a lot of hard work in those classes, even when they just used the same damn exam as they’d been using for a decade; I’d expect them to be around for office hours and lectures.

    4. Essie*

      The teachers I know only get 2-3 personal days per year, and those cannot be used adjacent to holidays or to sick days. Taking a vacation in those circumstances would require mis-using sick days, so they don’t do it.

      Teachers with contracts written differently may have other options.

      1. Julianne*

        We only get 4 personal days per year in my district, and we have a really good contract. We are not restricted in our use of personal days, but there can only be a certain percentage (or maybe number, IDK) of staff out before days are “closed” for time off requests, and days adjacent to holidays tend to get snapped up fast. I requested the day before Thanksgiving off at our first PD day prior to the start of school! (And I got it.)

      2. Humble Schoolmarm*

        We don’t get any personal days so any vacation must be taken without pay. I know of teachers who have done it, but only a day or two for fairly extraordinary reasons (a partner winning a national award in another city or if flying home the Monday after spring break will save the family a ton in airfare).

    5. very anon*

      As a parent and a taxpayer, I’m opposed. Time off for non-vacations is reasonable (medical appointments, etc.), but there are enough vacations built into the school calendar (at least in my area), that vacations should be confined to those time frames.

      Many industries have ideal time frames for employees to take vacations and for school teachers that coincides with the school calendar. I’ve worked many jobs where my preferred time to vacation didn’t necessarily align with work needs, so I adjusted my vacation scheduling.

      1. Snark*

        You do realize that many of the “vacations” built into the school year are opportunities not for actual vacations, right?

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Lots of what we think of as vacations are not vacations for the teachers. I’m on a Parent Association of a Middle through High public school and I know the teachers do lots of training seminars and other in-service work in the Summer “breaks”. We raise money for extra seminars that the principal has on the it-would-be-great-if list that can’t get covered by the budget from the DOE.

        Ultimately, it seems like they really just get the same vacation time that we do.

        1. LAI*

          I disagree. I live with a teacher and he definitely gets significantly more vacation time than I do in my regular office job. To the point that he usually plans 1-2 vacations a year without me. *Some* of that vacation time is used for professional development but by no means all of it. I’d estimate that, between summer, thanksgiving, winter break, and spring break, he’s off at least 10 weeks of the year. That’s why he tries very hard to never take vacation days during the year, or even sick days, because he doesn’t want to leave the students to a sub.

          1. Snark*

            And how much time does he spend grading, planning, uploading grades, calling/emailing parents, and doing paperwork in the evenings and weekends? I maintain that, when hours are averaged out over the year, teachers have no more time off than any of us do.

            1. DDJ*

              Yes! I have multiple teacher friends, and they’re putting in a LOT of hours. When I leave the office, I mostly get to unplug and enjoy my evenings and weekends. She puts in 2-3 hours of extra work every night, does a bit extra on the weekends, and I know for a fact (because I’ve seen it) that she takes her laptop and marking on holidays to keep up with it all.

              1. Julianne*

                Yes. I get more days off than my partner does, but even in my 4th year in the same role in the same school (so I’m well-versed in it at this point), I work 2-3 hours per day beyond my 7-hour school day, plus at least 3-4 hours most weekends (total, not per day).

                Between summer school (which was a voluntary commitment for which I was paid extra) and teacher leadership and PD (which I was voluntold to do, with minimal or no extra compensation), I only had a week off last summer. In theory I could have opted out and had 7 weeks fully off, but I’m still establishing myself in my district – and the extra money helps so much.

            2. Observer*

              That’s true. But in terms of days when you can make your own schedule? They do get more.

              I don’t begrudge it – as you say the hours are the same (or more), the work is HARD and the need for these kinds of “spaces in time” is real. And many teachers also wind up spending their own money for things the school should be providing. But, the days to actually take a vacation are there, and outside of extraordinary / non-flexible situations, you just don’t take vacation during the school year.

      4. Chicken Superhero*

        As a parent and taxpayer, I wish teachers were treated half as well as I am at my job. Or paid even half what I am. So I’m pro vacations.

      1. Wally*

        Many teachers do not get the summer off, either because they are needed for summer school or because they can’t afford it and have to work other jobs.

      2. Snark*

        Sure, for some value of “off” where that word is construed to mean “updating IEPs, planning lessons, doing professional development and training, teaching summer school, tutoring, and completing administrative requirements.”

      3. Julianne*

        Super false. In most states/districts, it’s 8 weeks at most, and often just six. Also, see other comments discussing how we use our “time off.”

      4. Observer*

        I hope you are being facetious. In the US, summer break is NOT 3 months. And, teachers are not getting a total of three months off.

    7. I'm A Little TeaPot*

      My teacher friends may occasionally take a mental health day (or other sick day, but for them, they separate the 2 in their mind). Vacations are during school breaks only. If they’re going to an event (wedding, etc), that’s “vacation”, but again, they separate it in their mind.

    8. A.N.O.N.*

      My partner is a teacher and this would be *severely* frowned upon. Having a sub for a week would not cut it. Honestly, my partner wouldn’t even take a day or two off unless he absolutely had to (such as being sick).

      It sucks, because your vacations dates are not up to you and are often during peak vacation times, but he sees this is part of the cost of being a teacher.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        Actually, come to think of it, there’s no way the principal of his school would approve it. I’m pretty sure teachers don’t contractually get vacation days, just sick/personal time.

      2. Snark*

        Ultimately I agree, because coverage and continuity are obviously really important for teachers and a sub doesn’t really cut it except as a stopgap for illness, emergencies, and the like.

    9. MechanicalPencil*

      One of my parents is a teacher and wouldn’t dream of doing this because of testing. The state test is at the end of the school year, so every possible teaching day that can be used will be, come hell or high water. The occasional mental health day/strep throat/(grand)parent emergency, sure. But a random cruise in February? Not gonna happen. Test scores matter to the principal, the district, and the state and ultimately affect hireability. Yeah, it’s f’ed up.

      1. A.N.O.N.*

        Test scores even affect the teacher’s rating, unfair as it is (my partner teaches one class that does not take a state test, so he’s rated based on their test scores in a *different class that he has nothing to do with.* Talk about it being f’ed up!)

        1. Bibliovore*

          How about never. I am actually boggled by the question. Sick days yes. Planning a trip during the school year. Never.

      2. Observer*

        It’s not just testing. If a teacher is out, it affects the students, even with an excellent sub. This is actually one of the reasons I think that school vacations are a good thing – they make it possible for to minimize unexpected teacher absences without effectively making it impossible for a teacher to ever take a vacation.

    10. Julianne*

      I wouldn’t do more than an extra day to create a long weekend. Planning for a sub is so stressful, and quality subs are hard to come by. I actually took today off and until I got off the plane, I was having some anxiety about whether things in my classroom were okay. I’ve had some truly lousy subs in the past, and my class this year has a lot of students who have experienced trauma. It’s not even a question of could I go on a vacation during school, it’s just too stressful in the lead up, and when I get back.

      1. Chicken Superhero*

        You couldn’t pay me enough to be a teacher. Couldn’t pay me to put up with the utter nonsense, crazy hard work, impossible expectations, and terrible benefits. Fortunately no teacher position would pay even half of what would tempt me, so I’ll just keep getting paid well to be treated like a human, and having my required work supplies paid for by work, not out of an already-meagre paycheck.

        /had 3 teacher roommates, teacher sibling, teacher friend, worked in schools

    11. blackcat*

      I got two personal days per year in my old job. This was sufficient to allow me to attend a one or two out of town weddings a year.

      I also got 10 sick days (that rolled over, so it was a lot). I used 1 or 2 each year. Folks with kids used a lot more. Sick days were expected to be used for doctors appointments, too.

      I also missed 1 or 2 days per year for professional development not through the school (conferences). This was not considered PTO of any sort since it was work.

      Roughly 6 weeks of my 10 weeks summer break and one week of my two week winter break were true time off. So that’s still 7ish weeks vacation, more than most other professional jobs.

      Overall, it was fine.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      For teachers, I don’t think it’s generally allowed. I could see taking a day to make a long weekend for something really unusual – being able to attend a close family member’s wedding, for example. But not a full-out vacation during term time.

      I think teaching is just one of those fields where your vacation times are specified and have to be fit into non-instructional times, the same way the parents have to fit vacations into school holidays. Even a good sub is not going to be able to match the teacher’s level of instruction – they can lecture and assign work, but they don’t know the students, and it takes time to get up to speed.

  56. ZSD*

    Congratulations to Rhode Island on becoming the 8th state to pass a law requiring employers to give their employees paid sick days!

    1. anon24*

      This is great news, but I think it’s sad that it’s 2017 and we’re still fighting for basic workers rights. Why are they “only” the 8th state to do this?

      1. ZSD*

        Indeed. For the record, the Maryland legislature passed paid sick days last year, which would have made Maryland the 8th, but the governor vetoed it.

  57. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Posting on behalf of my friend/college roommate (let’s call her Tali). Technically, she never graduated, because she was short one class, but for a few reasons, she was having a rough patch and wanted out ASAP. So she walked in the commencement ceremony, left the city where our university was, and got a job, planning to take the course at some future point. We’re about five years out of college now, and it’s never seemed pressing, so she never got around to it.

    She just started a new job a couple weeks ago, and they asked for her “credentials” to prove she graduated. No rush on them but they are expecting them at some point. She told them she’d get back to them. She’s been in touch with the university in the hope of taking something at a local school and arranging a credit transfer (she’s no longer in the same state) so she could explain the situation to her new job and explain her plan for rectifying it, and also wrap up the technically-non-degreed situation ASAP, and hasn’t been getting much help. Nothing unexpected for our huge, bureaucratic alma mater, but doesn’t help her get the information she needs to understand her options for finishing her degree in a timely manner.

    Any advice for managing the situation with her job? I’m sure she could share more detail, but she’s in a car right now, which is why I’m posting on her behalf. She knows that letting it slide until it became a problem was a mistake, but any advice about damage control would be really appreciated.

    1. Backroads*

      This is actually happened with Husband a few years ago (he was still finishing a certain course for the zillionth time, finally did pass it). He just told his superiors he was working on it, and I guess they didn’t care enough. It worked itself out.

    2. C*

      She should quit the job ASAP if she told them she already graduated (on her application or resume) & then finish the degree & then find a new job. Otherwise, she is likely going to be fired & marked as not rehireable for lying about the degree. I know you said it is 1 class short but 1 class makes a difference.

      Most schools don’t allow you to transfer in your last few credits. So, she may need to go back to the school, unless she can take something as an online course from the school.

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        The university does allow late-in-degree transfer credit under certain conditions, which she meets, but she needs to get the course preapproved. From what I understand, she’s not getting clear answers about what she needs to do to do that.

        I’ll pass along your comment to her. Thank you for your candor. If that’s the only way to mitigate damage at this point, so be it.

        1. LAI*

          I’m a college adviser. I can’t say for sure that this is how it works everywhere, but at my institution, she would need approval from multiple offices, which is why you can’t ever get a straight answer from one person. She needs to confirm that a) the course is transferable for credit, b) the course is approved to fulfill the requirement she is missing and c) she isn’t violating any university residency requirements by taking it outside of her university. At my institution, that’s 3 separate offices that have to approve.

          Also, if it’s a large bureaucratic institution, her best bet is to get an appointment with an academic advisor or graduation evaluator, depending on how her college works. If she’s been relying on email or any kind of online system, my advice would be to call and keep calling until she talks to a person.

    4. fposte*

      Oy. Just to be clear, she claimed she graduated? Was it on her resume and in her application? Or was it just a job that required a BA/BS and she applied for it without clarifying she doesn’t have one and made no mention of anything like that?

      If she outright falsified her application, this is a tough one to salvage, even if it’s rectified. I think C’s advice of bailing at that point has some merit; I might, if the manager seemed sympathetic, throw myself on her mercy to see if there’s a way to manage the situation or the departure as gently as possible. If she didn’t outright falsify, I still would try the manager route, but I might hold off a little until I got the degree completion plan in place. However, it still might be an issue for the job, especially because it’s likely that it won’t be until next May that she can actually complete the degree.

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        I don’t know what exactly went on her application but this is all really helpful, thank you.

    5. kittymommy*

      She may also want to check to see if the credits are still “active”. There are some schools that won’t accept credits if it’s been a certain number of years. At the end of the day though, I think it might all boil down to if she presented herself as having graduated or didn’t say anything.

    6. Traveling Teacher*

      As long as she was upfront about having to finish one class on her resume/application, I think that most people 5 years into the professional workforce will be looking at her work and references rather than credentials. From personal experience with this very issue! I’ve always been upfront that I needed to finish one measly class to get the actual certificate–due to an international move that was supposed to be temporary but became permanent, this took me years longer than it should have! I was always very upfront with any potential employers, and it was never an issue, due to the quality of my work and stellar references (not having that little piece of paper pushed me to excel just to prove that I wasn’t worthless…)

      If she hasn’t been honest, she’d better be prepared to go and beg for mercy and just lay it all on the table, something like, “I took all required classes for my degree and even walked in the commencement ceremony, but I have one incomplete course that I still need to wrap up. I’m taking abc steps to resolve this as quickly as possible *provide documentation here* but I completely understand if this is a dealbreaker for you. I should have been more explict/upfront about my degree status from the beginning of this process, and I take full responsibility for that claim.” I think that she should also say that she’s prepared to resign, either immediately or after two weeks’ notice, whichever they’d prefer. Only if there’s a really compelling reason, she could talk about not having the degree being due to xyz circumstances, but again, only if it’s really compelling, and I think that the apology is much stronger if she doesn’t try to make any excuses at all. Good luck to your friend!

  58. Oh anon.... Current employer at career fair....*

    I work full time and am go to grad school in the evenings. My school has many career fairs and related opportunities coming up in the near future. I really want to take advantage of them, but I know that my current employer will be at some of these. How do I handle it?!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Is your graduate degree in the same field where you currently work? Does your employer know you’re in grad school?

      I think it would be reasonable to expect to see someone that I know is pursuing a degree in a different field attending a job fair because I would be assuming they were planning to move on once they obtained their degree.

      1. Oh anon.... Current employer at career fair....*

        They do know that I am in school. My degree is in a tangentially-related field in an area that my employer is attempting to expand into. I have been told that my name has come up to help with these endeavors, BUT… I will believe it when I see it, the new department they are creating is a bit of a mess right now and I am very doubtful that they will pay me what I could make elsewhere. I think logically they know that I am leaving, but are in denial….

        1. Essie*

          If I’m reading this correctly, they are talking about having you man a booth for them at one of these fairs. Can you do that and have enough down time to search for yourself on the sly, in the guise of checking out the competition?

          1. Oh anon.... Current employer at career fair....*

            I am not tasked with working the career fairs (sorry if that wasn’t clear!)… I just want to go on my own time without it being awkward if I run into my current employer’s representatives.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Depending on what you’re studying, you could always say you’re there for a class assignment.

    2. ZSD*

      Is your employer small enough that you’re sure the people representing them at career fairs will recognize you? If it’s a largish employer and you don’t work in their HR department, it might not be an issue.
      Also, speaking as someone who presents at grad school fairs (which are similar in some ways), I can say that the people actually coming to my booth keep me busy enough that I certainly don’t have time to scan the larger crowd to see if I recognize anybody. If you just walk by their booth in the middle of the crowd, there’s a good chance you won’t be noticed.

      1. Oh anon.... Current employer at career fair....*

        Whoever would be representing the company would definitely recognize me…. Knowing the presenters often stay occupied makes me feel better though!

        1. JN*

          Been a very long time since I’ve been to one, but…do career fairs provide vendor/employer location maps to attendees? If so and you knew where your employer’s booth was located, you might be able to avoid seeing the reps who would recognize you. That might cause you to miss out on any desired employers whose booths were unfortunately located close to your current employer’s booth, but it might be workable.

        2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander.lists@gmail.com)*

          I don’t think it would be a huge deal anyway. It’s perfectly reasonable to be seeing what else is out there. In my experience there are very few actual job openings and even fewer interviews on offer at job fairs, so the fact that you are there does not necessarily mean you are looking for a new job right now.

  59. Natasha*

    I’m hoping I can get some input on this. I got fired from my job on Tuesday after four months because it was a ‘bad fit’ (that was literally all they told me. And honestly they were pretty much right–I was completely miserable and failing to connect with anyone there). Since then I’ve spoken with two staffing agencies in my field and trying to hit the ground running on the whole ‘get my life back together’ thing.

    Before this job I worked at another place for four years. It was my first professional job out of college. I contacted my old bosses and two of three of them responded saying they would be happy to be a reference for me and asked if I would be willing to come back. (The third was my direct supervisor and is on medical leave recovering from surgery; I don’t really expect her to get back to me very soon considering.) I told them I’m still really overwhelmed and I need time to process everything that’s happened.

    The thing is–I’m really considering it. I know they could use me, since someone else on my old team departed three weeks ago, and the department is really hurting for experienced people. I was well-liked there, and I was very much valued especially with the high turnover. But again–it was very high turnover (our field doesn’t generally have high turnover rates, but I was in an area that tends to be higher than normal) and the pay was crap. The commute was long, about 40 minutes–which probably doesn’t sound long but it’s from literally one end of my metro area to the other so it covers a good distance. The work was pretty soul-draining, and because of the insane turnover over the last year I was completely burning out and running myself into the ground. That part (because of the turnover and the fact that the team I was on is currently mostly staffed by people who were hired after I left) and the commute won’t change; the job was not something that could be done remotely. I could probably negotiate higher pay. The benefits were decent and about average for the field.

    Anyway that was a long ramble. I’m still going to take some time to think about everything. I’ve never been fired before and I’m worried I’m going to make a decision based on fear and panic rather than thinking about it rationally. So. Has anyone else faced this, what did you decide, and how did it go?

      1. Natasha*

        I left because I wanted more money and I felt like it was “time to move on”. I also felt like it was pretty dead-end and I was facing pressure from my parents to leave for “something better” (I don’t have the healthiest relationship with them–my therapist and I are working on my various childhood-abuse issues). The money issue could be resolved if I manage to negotiate to come back for higher pay. The other issue… I honestly don’t know how I feel. It also tended to be a whirlpool of negativity but after the last four months I’m looking back and thinking actually it wasn’t that bad at all. Management was perfectly decent and went to bat for us a lot and well. I’m in a position that tends to be treated as very inferior but I never felt that way there.

        However I may be looking back with a too-rosy view since the place I left for was such a nightmare–but I’m not sure if I could handle the risk of starting over somewhere else and struggling again.

        (I also struggle with mental health problems–depression, ADHD, and autism–and I have a chronic pain condition. I am on medication and in treatment, and I can hide these and function pretty well but people can generally tell something is Off and Weird about me.)

        1. Stop That Goat*

          Well, Amy has definitely nailed what you should be asking yourself. Ultimately, you don’t want to find yourself in the same position in a couple months and wishing you moved on somewhere else. I’d be worried about burning that bridge if you come back and then leave again.

        2. Detective Amy Santiago*

          As someone who suffers from severe panic disorder and mild OCD, I can completely empathize with the desire to go back to something you know that is at least moderately comfortable.

          Instead of comparing your former job to where you are now, make a pro and con list of going back based solely on the merits of that position. Less toxic is still toxic and like Stop That Goat said, you don’t want to risk burning the bridge completely and finding yourself in a position with no solid references.

          Honestly, I would suggest talking to your therapist about this.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      My gut reaction is “don’t do it.” It doesn’t sound like even a salary bump would make up for “soul-draining”work.

      I was laid off at my work in late spring. Within a week, one of my colleagues (ex-manager) contacted me about joining his group. Although I like him and the other team members, it would have been back to a miserable commute, strict hours, and the work would consist of all the tasks I didn’t really enjoy about the job I was just laid off from. BUT, it would mean keeping my (very decent) salary and benefits, and it was flattering to be wanted on the team…

      I turned it down and explained to my colleague that work-life balance was too important to give up for a job I knew I wouldn’t love. He was disappointed but understood and will still be a strong reference for me. I’m taking my chances on the job market.

      1. Chicken Superhero*

        I have anxiety, so I would be inclined to take it… but openly on a rolling 3-month basis. So ‘I’ll commit to 3 months, and you’ll have an already-trained hard worker, but I really want my career to go in this direction.’ But just because no job would give me an actual ulcer.

  60. Rox*

    I need tips for moving from a customer service job to one as an administrative assistant.

    Tl;dr background: I came from a family that firmly believed that my primary concern should be school and that focusing there would be my key to success. I didn’t realize how outdated this was until way too late, so my work background is sparse as a result. I graduated from college with a B.A. in English Literature back in 2015. In my second semester of college (against my mother’s wishes) I got my first job – at first I tried to apply to office-type or library student positions, but even after about a dozen applications I got no responses, until a neighbor who worked for the university set with up with a student position in a call center conducting phone surveys. That position was placed on hold when I went to Japan to study abroad for my junior year, and soon after I got back the university closed the research center I was working for. I then tried for months to find a new student job, again primarily seeking something clerical (but really applying to anything I could, as I unexpectedly lost a scholarship while abroad and was desperately cash-strapped as a result), but no one at the university wanted to hire a senior. Desperate, I turned to retail and got a job at Target to keep me going until graduation. I then began searching for administrative assistant jobs in earnest, but to no avail – I was firmly stuck in the “can’t get a job without experience, can’t get experience without a job” death trap. I searched for over a year, and even completed an administrative assistant certificate with a local college, before finally I HAD to get out of retail and part-time work and took a full-time position as a contractor for a major airline’s customer relations department. I’m not a reservations agent; I’m actually given major responsibility to facilitate conflict resolution. Within guidelines I can issue compensation and refunds, and make exceptions outside of the stated policy, and I’m fully empowered to speak on behalf of our executive office. I even have full blessing to state that I am a supervisor, though I don’t supervise employees. It’s a great position with a ton of responsibility…but it’s still customer service, and it’s still a call center. However, I thought that for my next job search it would at least be a boon to be able to show that I’ve done full-time work.

    Well, after just over a year in my position, I’ve started looking again. Since I’ve started, I’ve gotten plenty of bites!…for sales and customer service positions. Meanwhile, my efforts towards getting an office job have still been going nowhere fast.

    Here’s the thing – frankly, I’m an introverted, anxious mess. Positions that rely on interacting with strangers all day have NEVER appealed to me. I want to be able to go to work, interact with the same people every day, and for the most part focus on my tasks. I love helping people, but talking and interacting all day is just too much. I’ve gotten to the point where most days at work I feel like I’m going to take a nervous breakdown if I have to take one more call. I need something quieter.

    I’m very organized and detail-oriented, comfortable with computers, proficient with Microsoft Office, have been complimented up and down about my tone and manner on the phone, and I have a solid writing background. Whenever I ask for advice and tell people my skillset, they say that I would be great for an admin job and should have no trouble finding something – but that’s clearly not the case! I try to emphasize my skillset in my resume, cover letters, and interviews to the best of my ability, but it always boils down to experience. I can’t even FIND an entry level admin job that doesn’t ask for experience, and the “treat the requirement like a wishlist and take a chance” method clearly isn’t working!

    What else can I do to bridge this gap? Am I making some kind of glaring mistake? Or am I just stuck in customer service forever at this point?

    1. Morning Glory*

      Are you applying to hybrid kinds of positions like receptionist? A lot of these jobs have some reception responsibilities and some admin responsibilities, and a customer service background would be good to have on your background. Alternatively, have you targeted admin assistant positions that involve client assistance or client coordination? I can see customer service being valuable for this as well.

      A lot of small companies advertise part-time admin assistant or office assistant jobs that are only a few hours per week, and not very good pay. If you can find one that will work with your current work schedule, you could pick this up as a way to get admin assistance on your resume.

      Good luck!

      1. Rox*

        Thank you for the advice! I applied to a few jobs like what you’ve described, but it hasn’t really been my focus – and you’re right, that could be a good way for me to bridge the gap. I’ll look for positions that involve working with clients as well, and see where that gets me.

    2. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      I so feel you! I was stuck in customer service type positions for awhile too and was really trying to break into admin work (now I’m trying to break out of that, but that’s a whole different can of worms) – because of the same reasons you are! YMMV based on your specific experience, but this was my experience (in a very large northeast city).

      Admin jobs are a dime a dozen in my city. You post for an administrative assistant and you’ll probably end up with at least a couple of hundred resumes. However finding a good admin (and finding an admin job that treats you well) is difficult. My experience was (and I’ve been in the position to be screening resumes for other admin roles within my company) is that the volume of resume received is so high that the screeners can be fairly picky and are looking for pretty specific things. When I first started looking for admin jobs I got absolutely not traction. Like no bites whatsoever. I was trying to demonstrate the level of responsibility that I had and hoped that someone would realize “if she is trusted to have the judgement to do x, then of course she can do y (typical admin things – like phones, mail, etc)”. After a year of searching I changed my approach. This is what I did:

      – I read through dozens of job ads for admin jobs that I was interested in, paying particular attention to the responsibilities and requirements. Anything that I had even remote experience with (in all honesty I did stretch/reach with this quite a bit) I put on a new list I created.
      – Then I created a master resume including all of those items. This “adminitized” my resume and really highlighted my admin experience. I know Alison’s advice is to focus on accomplishments, but when it comes to admin jobs my experience – again YMMV – has been that accomplishments are tough to quantify and responsibilities/straight experience seems to be valued more than in it does in other types of roles. Though do include any relevant or impressive accomplishments! I just find the admin resume game a bit different than other types of roles.
      – Every job that I applied to I tried to match as many of the responsibilities/requirements listed in the ad. Again, not necessarily the best advice for all industries/types of roles, but knowing the type of volume that I was up against I knew that I had to make it “easy” to get past the screeners (human or computer).
      – For cover letters, I always made sure to include something along the lines of “though my title is x, you’ll see from my resume that I have a good deal of administrative experience”. It was all about saying, “sure my title is xxxx, but I have already done all of these things that you will need your admin to do” and that seemed to get me past the experience road block.

      From there, I immediately began getting bites and tractions. Turned out in my city – going through external recruiters was the best route (external recruiters seemed to have access to better quality admin jobs) and agreeing to take temp or temp-to-perm roles got my foot in the door with some real admin experience to beef up my resume with.

      One final thing. Again, YMMV, but in my area the hierarchy of admin jobs is as follows: Administrative Receptionist, Administrative Assistant, Executive Assistant. While I was not thrilled with reception duties, those roles seemed to require the least amount of experience. My admin career path went as follows: temp role as an administrative receptionist, temp-to-perm role as an administrative receptionist (I transformed this role from 20% admin/80% reception to 75% admin/25% reception), promotion to full administrative assistant, moved to higher paying administrative assistant role at more prestigious company.

      I’m sorry if some, most or even all of this is not relevant to you! All I can say is that this did work for me. Good luck with your searching!

      2. Rox*

        Thank you for replying! It sounds like our experiences are really similar, even though we are in different parts of the country, so this advise is incredibly valuable and is helping me to reconsider several aspects of my approach. I’m going to start reworking my master resume and making a list like you describe (your method speaks to me – I love list-making). I’ve also suspected for a long time that a lot of what you’re describing about the admin-screening and hiring process might be true, but I was unsure enough that I haven’t been making my applications nearly as focused as they could be.
        Also, I had never even HEARD of the Administrative Receptionist role before now, but a quick search gets me quite a few results in my area!

        Bottom line is that this is SUPER SUPER helpful. Seriously, thank you for taking the time to respond!

    3. NotThatGardner*

      for some reason — at least in my experience – when i was fed up with my current service industry (server, hostess, etc) and wanted to break into admin work, i found success in hospitals. they often have resources to train people, and a high need for admins.

      1. Rox*

        The thought has definitely crossed my mind, though a lot of hospitals and doctors offices around here seem to be seeking people who already have a medical background, or at least training in medical billing. Still, it might be worth a second look!

    4. Colette*

      Could you transition into other call center/customer service jobs? For example, the people who review calls/chats and evaluate first line agents, fraud prevention, process development, reporting, etc. Call centers need all of those things.

      Also, what about executive customer service? It’s still dealing with customers, but it can be a transition to the rest of the company.

      And finally, if you can’t get out of customer service altogether, can you move to a customer service job where you deal with commercial customers instead of retail customers? Business customers are usually more reasonable (it’s not a personal issue to them) and easier to deal with and, depending on the company, you may be able to work with the same people over and over. Think an account rep where you have specific customers who you work with and help them solve their problems.

      1. Rox*

        I’ve definitely considered all of these options, and of course I have no idea what the future holds, but I hesitate to go any further down the customer service rabbit hole. Plus, in my position it would be difficult to move up, since I would have to get hired first (I’m currently a contractor) and then wait out a probation period…and for various reasons, sticking with the company for the extended period they would require before I had any mobility just isn’t practical.

        Don’t get me wrong, though, I appreciate the advise! I may end up reconsidering my angle at some point, depending on where life takes me.

    5. Temperance*

      Do you want to be an admin, or do you see that as a stepping stone to a better career? A lot of what you have an issue with in your current role, you would need to deal with for secretarial work.

      What’s your actual interest? Did you intern during college?

      1. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

        Oh this is a really good point! As I mentioned above – I’m now trying to break out of admin work, after working really hard to get into it. In my case I still stand by my decision to go into it. It really was my only alternative with any chance of being hired and that paid enough to support myself/had decent benefits.

        That said it still is not ideal work for me. I too am an introvert – and while its much better for my nerves/disposition to be dealing with internal folks rather than the public at large, I still interface with a lot of different people and highly tuned interpersonal skills are necessary to “get.stuff.done”. It can still be bit more emotionally draining than would be ideal for me. The main reason that I want to transition out of admin work is that I want to be responsible for my own projects/tasks rather than with assisting others in theirs and I’d rather have several larger responsibilities (each possibly with dozens of different aspects) rather a zillion tiny, but completely disparate responsibilities.

        Just food for thought! If you’re thinking of admin work as a stepping stone try to target the industry of your actual interest (if you have one). Honestly – I did not have an actual interest when I moved into admin work, but through admin work I realized where my interests were and what sort of career I did want in the long term (guess I was very late bloomer). I feel like I’m right on the precipice of finally getting there. Manuevered into my target industry, then lucked into the ideal department for myself. Now I’m getting great first-hand experience and knowledge of this industry(and the department) and am trying to weasel my way into any department-specific responsibilities/projects that I can get my hands on. I’ve already made it known what my ultimate career goal is, but my backup plan is to look elsewhere once I’ve built up enough of these department specific responsiblities/projects.

        Don’t mean to talk about myself too much here – but I feel like I was in Rox’s place not so long ago, so I’m hoping my experience might be similar/relatable.

      2. Rox*

        I didn’t intern, sadly. You’re right in that admin work is a means to an end for me, but not for getting into a particular industry – I actually want to return to school to complete my Japanese degree (my school didn’t offer it until after I graduated, so I only had a minor) and then move out of state to go to graduate school. From there, I actually want to work in translation…but that’s going to be a long road, and I need something to support me until I get there. Admin jobs just seem like they would be more tolerable for me than pure customer service, but it’s certainly not what I want to do for the rest of my life.

    6. Janelle*

      Many will disagree but this is why I never recommend even going into customer service. It’s difficult to get out. You should really try for hybrid positions then move from there. I wouldn’t hire someone straight from customer service straight to admin, it for sure would have to be something where they also took on a lot of admin.

      1. Rox*

        Honestly, if I had the option, I never would have taken the Target job or my current job. Sometimes the luxury of waiting and hoping to get hired in a different field just isn’t there. I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say in the last few sentences – are you saying that I should only look for hybrid positions, since with my background I likely won’t be considered for anything else?

    7. DDJ*

      If you have an opportunity to get with a temp agency, I would recommend it. It’s how I ended up getting into my first office jobs. Some of the contracts were pretty short, but I did have a few that were pretty long-term, and I ended up with a great position as a result of the hard work I did as a temp. It’s not exactly glamorous but it is a good way to break into something new.

      1. Champagne_Dreams*

        Agreed. The only way I was able to stop working at the mall and start working in an office was to temp. First you get 1-day assignments as a file clerk, then once you’ve proven that you will show up on time and do good work you get longer and more complicated assignments, until finally one of the places you temp like you enough to pay the conversion fee to keep you.

    8. Chicken Superhero*

      I got a job as an office admin through a temp agency. They gave me a typing test and had an interview, then placed me in positions. I was also able to bounce back there between jobs. It’s a good way to get experience, and you can ask for extra work that teaches you stuff. Just always be a bit early and be dependable.

      If you’re in a city, also look into consulting. They need admin staff on projects, and it has better career options long term than office admin – less likely to be pigeonholed, if you find an interesting topic you are more likely to be able to pursue it, and often better tuition/certification assistance.

    9. Triscuitoncheddar*

      look for a job in procurement. Your skills in negotiating, resolving, customer service would suit you well. Most larger companies have procurement departments. Your degree is useful because it backs up your skills to analyze written documents, and create written documents.

      1. Rox*

        What would someone be doing in procurement, exactly? What kind of titles would the entry-level jobs typically be under?

  61. Turkletina*

    How do you go about setting professional goals?

    For background, I’m in my first professional job. My three-month-review requires setting goals for the next three months, which is stressful because, honestly, I just want to learn all the things. When I talked to my manager, she suggested setting goals around the projects I’m assigned to. So since Project X involves a notoriously tricky Process A, one of my goals is to be independently competent in Process A. That’s fine, of course, but it also feels unsatisfying because I don’t have control over which projects I work on. I’m just wondering how the rest of y’all think about goals, especially early on in a position and early on in a career.

    1. sb*

      As someone who manages people in their first job — learn all the things is a pretty good 3 month goal, just list a few you plan to learn. Process A sounds like a great goal. Would “demonstrate ability to pick up a tricky process quickly” feel better to you? That may be the real goal, although you’d still put down “be independently competent in Process A” as the measurable goal.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      They need to be SMART: specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time-limited.

      I’m sort of surprised your manager isn’t suggesting goals for you at this stage actually.

    3. Specialk9*

      Realistically they’re usually utter BS. I have yet to have them be relevant to my career. But you have to all puppet theatre like they’re real and valuable. I go for things that are achievable but not obviously a gimme, like “present to 3 internal partners on project” which in my work can be done easily.

  62. margarets*

    Why is there so little empathy or moral support for jobseekers?

    I’ve posted here about my struggles looking for work. I’ve talked to people IRL and online about this. Nearly every time, they go *immediately* to assuming I must be doing something wrong with my resume, interviews, networking, handshake, haircut, etc etc etc. And if it’s not that I must have some deep psychological problems that I am somehow unaware of but displaying vividly to everyone I encounter, terrible problems that turn everyone off and make me unhireable. And then comes the container-load of advice – standard job advice but delivered as if it’s the very first time I’ve heard it.

    It seems that people simply *cannot* accept that someone could be do the right things and still not get a job, or that when they say they need moral support, that is really what they need, not job search advice.

    It’s not just me – I see this all the time when someone posts about the emotional wear-and-tear of jobsearching. They get a ton of jobsearch advice, and that’s pretty much it. God help them if they say “I think I’ve got that part covered”. Then they get attacked.

    What is this about? Everyone has to look for a job sometime. What is so difficult about doing the moral support part?

    1. k.k*

      I don’t think it’s a lack of empathy so much, just a weird way that people react to hearing about someone else’s struggles in general. You see the same thing when you tell someone you’re sick (“Have you tried XYZ miracle cures?” “Maybe it’s this this or this”), or anything else you’re dealing with. There’s this first reaction to try and offer advice and fix the problem.

      1. Manders*

        Yep, I think you’re right about this. A lot of people really do not know how to respond to someone else’s misfortune in any way besides offering advice.

        On this site specifically, though, I think the issue is more that it’s an advice column so everyone is primed to give advice.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Yeah, they want to “help.” Especially with the endless suggestions that have no bearing on your actual skills, or telling you to try things you already tried six million times.

        Job hunting/dating analogy: I get this so much when I talk about having a hard time finding anyone to date that I’ve stopped bringing it up.

    2. miyeritari*

      I think it’s a life philosophy thing. If you acknowledge that good people who are extremely qualified and prepared sometimes DON’T get jobs, you have to acknowledge bad things happen to good people, and sometimes life can be extremely, painfully, horribly unfair, and many people – consciously or unconsciously – can’t deal with randomness and shittery on that level. (Especially given that many children are hammered with the ‘work hard and you’ll succeed’ motto, and the implicit implication is ‘if you failed, you didn’t work hard enough.’)

      1. margarets*

        Just World Fallacy. I keep forgetting how many people are eyeball-deep into it and don’t realize it.

        There was a horrible story in my area about a med student who didn’t get a residency after 2 rounds of matching and committed suicide over it. This is considered a huge failure in that world, even though every round there are a few dozen perfectly fine students who just don’t get matched because it doesn’t work out. It’s devastating for them.

        Welp, of course there were victim-blamey comments about this kid. That he felt “entitled” to be a doctor, that he wasn’t tough enough to move on to something else, or he hadn’t done X, Y or Z to improve his chances. It was pretty ugly – who can accuse a med school graduate of not being tough or hardworking enough, you know?

        3. Specialk9*

          It’s not just a Just World Fallacy, there’s the People Can Be Assholes, Especially When They Only Experience A Situation Briefly and Remotely reality. Argh. Internet comments are full of this. I have to believe that those callous self righteous are either kinder in person, or bitter and alone from being so awful.

    3. Colette*

      I think there are two pieces to it.

      First of all, sometimes it’s more obvious to an outsider that you do not, in fact, have it covered – you (generic you) have unreasonable expectations (i.e. you think you should get an interview for every application, you think your internship in tablecloths perfectly qualifies you for a leadership role in teapot development), or demonstrate things that would cause issues in a job hunt (i.e. the last two people who interviewed me were idiots so I complained to HR, you’re posting on social media about your illegal drug use or cursing at servers at restaurants), or are otherwise doing things that will hurt you.

      But also people like to give advice, and it’s hard to see someone struggle and just empathize without doing anything about it.

          1. margarets*

            And some of them really do.

            You’re pretty much doing the thing I’m talking about. “Having trouble finding work? You MUST be doing something wrong.” Though this is the first time I’ve heard restaurant behaviour brought up as a possibility.

            1. Colette*

              It’s really, really hard to see what you’re doing wrong yourself. A lot of things are much more obvious to someone else. It’s not that hiring managers stalk potential employees at restaurants, but someone who is habitually rude to people they see as inferior is doing themselves no favors in the job hunt.

              Is it possible you’re doing everything perfectly? Maybe – but the results don’t show that. That doesn’t mean it’s your fault – but even if you’re 95% great at job hunting, there’s still room for improvement. (That doesn’t make the people giving you advice right, but it also doesn’t make them wrong.)

              I mean, I’ve done my share of job hunting, and I know that I wasn’t the best at it. I’m sure there were may ways I could have improved.

              1. margarets*

                So, is every person having difficulty finding a job *by definition* doing something wrong? Literally every single one?

                “It’s not that hiring managers stalk potential employees at restaurants, but someone who is habitually rude to people they see as inferior is doing themselves no favors in the job hunt.”

                Being rude to servers does not mean that person is habitually rude to people they see as inferior, or that they can’t be polite and pleasant throughout a hiring process and HR will never know what they’re like outside the office. I mean, *rapists* get jobs, so let’s not overstate HR’s ability to suss out personality defects.

                1. Colette*

                  Not being 100% perfect doesn’t mean you’re a bad person – it means you’re human. But not being open to feedback is in itself a weakness.

                  It’s possible to be job hunting and holding out for the right job, knowing it will take a while. But if you’re desperate to find something and you’re not succeeding, your choices are to accept that you have to change something (resume, cover letter, interview prep, location, field, etc.) or continue doing what you’re doing even though others can see that there’s something you could improve.

                3. Gaia*

                  I disagree. Being rude to servers *does* mean that person is habitually rude to people they see as inferior. What other possible explanation is there for someone being rude to a server?

                  You seem…weirdly defensive. The reality is most people are doing something wrong in their job search. I’ve seen incredible candidates who screwed themselves over what might seem like a small thing. It isn’t a fault that these people are doing something to hurt their candidacy – most are doing it because of the hoards of terrible advice out there. It is why I’m so grateful for this site!

                4. JamieS*

                  Well yes. The likelihood someone has the perfect resume, perfect cover letter, is the perfect interviewee, and is applying to jobs they are incredibly strong fits for is basically nil. Heck Alison gives advice on this stuff and I’d bet dollars to donuts she’d agree not even she is 100% perfect when it comes to job hunting.

        2. Morning Glory*

          margarets, I think the issue is the people bring their own experiences into these conversations, and they presumably are not actually seeing your application materials firsthand. So you may know you have it covered, but how would they know this?

          I also think it’s an instinct for some people to show compassion by trying to help, so they make suggestions. I think that may be a clumsy form of compassion if what you are really looking for is a place to vent (?) but it’s not a sign that they lack empathy or moral support.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Honestly, I assume that people don’t have it covered until/unless I see actual evidence to the contrary. I can’t tell you the number of people who have assured me that they’ve taken my resume and cover letter advice, and when I ask them to let me look at their materials, they haven’t taken any of it. I don’t mean they took some but not all; I mean often they haven’t taken any of it! And yet they’re telling me (and apparently think) that they have. That’s happened so often that at this point I think people are really bad at self-assessing this, and so when someone says that to me, I’m pretty skeptical about it.

          1. Colette*

            I’ve also had a few people talk about how much they needed a job and how hard they were looking in the same conversation as they told me they weren’t going to apply for this job because of X or that job because of Y (where X and Y were things like “I really want to work in this specific niche I have no experience in” or “I’m holding out for a job at company Z”). I mean, yes, you should think about what you want, but it’s also important to be realistic about the chances of getting what you want when you narrow your goal so drastically.

            1. Blue Anne*

              This is why I’ve stopped talking to most of my friends about career stuff unless they specifically ask me. I’m a philosophy major who is now an accountant because I’m pragmatic about taking jobs that make sense. Most of my friends are… not so pragmatic. And I don’t want to be the jerk telling them to stop looking only for good, nearby jobs in print journalism, sociology, and bookbinding…

              1. DDJ*

                Haha, fellow philosopher-who-was-pragmatic here! I only got through 2 years of philosophy before one of my professors sat me down and asked what I was planning on doing with my degree. I honestly hadn’t thought of it before. I just really enjoyed it and I was great at it. “Do you want to get your doctorate and teach? Are you interested in going into law?”

                No, not at all. So I dropped out of the program. Do I regret it? Not at all. Will I be eternally grateful to that professor who helped me to get onto a path that led to extreme success for me? Absoutely.

    4. CAA*

      First let me say that I am very sorry that you are having difficulty finding a job. I really believe you are doing absolutely everything you can to find one and there just isn’t one out there for you right now. I sincerely hope that you are able to find a great position very soon.

      Without trying to speak for the rest of the Internet or your IRL friends and family, I think you get advice in addition to empathy when you post here for a couple of reasons. One – it’s an advice site. Everyone who comes here is primed to read Alison’s advice, react to it and give their own take on the problem. If you post here, you are going to get advice because giving and critiquing advice is the activity that all the rest of us expect to engage in when we come here; so if you ask us to do something other than that, we may succeed occasionally, but mostly we’re going to revert to doing the thing we know and enjoy. And two – most job seekers have not successfully implemented most of the advice that’s given here. I know you have, but it’s hard for people to know that about you and overcome our natural human urges to help someone else achieve a goal.

    5. Temperance*

      I honestly think that it’s more or less people putting themselves in your shoes. They don’t have issues with X, Y, or Z, therefore if they job search, they won’t have to do it.

      It’s something I saw a lot after I got sick. People were always trying to determine what I did wrong to get sick, and I realized much later that it wasn’t their judgment of ME, it was their honest concern that the thing that could happen to me could happen to them, too.

      1. margarets*

        “People were always trying to determine what I did wrong to get sick

        Yes, it’s like that. They can’t accept that sometimes people just get sick. Infertility is another issue where this happens a lot.

    6. Blue Anne*

      They’re probably trying to help by giving you advice, instead of what you want, which is to help you by giving you sympathy. This is really common for a lot of people, and it drives me nuts. I don’t usually want suggestions either, I think I have Situation X handled and don’t want to justify why I think I have it handled, I just want to vent.

      I had a boyfriend once who had an excellent habit. When I started venting, he would ask “Do you want advice, or sympathy?” And would give me what I wanted. If I just wanted to talk to a sympathetic ear, I would receive purely moral support. If I was genuinely looking for advice, he then knew he had permission to give me honest advice.

      As a result I’ve started saying to friends when I want to vent, “I’m not looking for advice, I just want to get this off my chest.” Most people are happy to listen if they know that’s what will help you.

      2. JamieS*

        I don’t understand the whole venting about a problem but wanting no advice thing. I can understand not wanting useless drivel packaged as “advice” but if I have a problem and you know how to fix my problem or at least somewhat alleviate it I WANT TO KNOW.

        The way I see it is: I have a problem, I don’t want to have a problem, you know how to fix my problem, tell me how to fix it. If you don’t know how to fix it then distract me from whatever I’m dealing with and I’ll try to find someone who can help with a solution later.

        1. Blue Anne*

          The issue is usually that because it’s my problem, and I’m a pretty smart person, I know a lot more details and have also already examined the obvious solutions. 95% of the time, someone who listens to my problem and gives me advice is suggesting something that won’t work or doesn’t apply, and I don’t want to take the mental energy (already low because of the problem) to explain to them why it won’t work.

          1. JamieS*

            My POV is if I were able to find the solution I would have so that tells me I may not be the best person to find the solution so why wouldn’t I be open to someone else possibly providing an answer I hadn’t thought of? I’m utterly brilliant (intellect surpassed only by my humbleness) but other people have offered solutions I hadn’t thought of many times before. Actually I think often not being in the nitty gritty of the issue helps others more clearly see the solution. Obviously I’m not saying everyone always gives good advice but that doesn’t mean it makes sense to ever just not be open to advice. Then again when I tell someone a problem I always lay out what I’ve already thought of or advice I’ve already gotten so I very rarely get repeated advice.

            I guess it’s just different emotional styles and all. I know some people for some unfathomable reason get some sort of benefit from venting and I know that won’t change. I don’t think it’ll ever make sense to me though.

            1. Ramona Flowers*

              Huh. There are a number of things I barely even dare mention as people cannot resist aggravating me with advice I don’t want, that isn’t useful or relevant. Sometimes it’s really well meant but if I haven’t asked for advice I don’t want any!

            2. Lissa*

              LOL, I’m more like you, Jamie. It took me ages to realize my boyfriend would just rant and didn’t want to hear my analysis of the situation/ideas of what to do. I come at things with the perspective that nobody knows everything, and being closer to a situation sometimes makes it more difficult, not less, so outside perspectives are always helpful. Others feel very differently! And yeah some people can also be really annoying with giving advice but I just don’t talk to those people about problems. :)

            3. Observer*

              Well, may be you have found the solution, but it’s going to take time, so in the meantime you want to vent. Like you’re in a lousy job, and you know that it’s not going to change, so you need to find a new job. You’re working on that, but in the meantime, your job situation stinks. What good is advice going to do for you? You know what the solution is, but in real life things sometimes take time.

              And maybe there really is no “solution”. Say you have a health issue that makes it impossible to engage in your formerly favorite activity. Your condition is not going away. Period. What good is advice going to do for you? You’re not going to be able to engage in that activity, but you still want to complain sometimes.

              1. Pineapple Incident*

                I completely get this. I recently had to go gluten-free by recommendation of my GI, and I just kind of lamented to my boyfriend the other day that I hated this part- I’d forgotten what it was like when very few people in my inner circle know and understand that I have limitations and can’t always change plans easily. Like I’m not sure what I’ll be able to eat at random restaurant B as opposed to well-researched restaurant A, when A doesn’t work for everybody else. I wasn’t looking for advice since it’s just going to take time to set in for everyone, including me. I just wanted exactly what he did do- to rub my shoulder and say “that blows, now lets go buy your GF mac n’ cheese”

        2. Specialk9*

          You must be someone who processes internally instead of verbally. Those of us who are verbal processers simply cannot skip the process of getting it out into the open in order to examine it, before figuring out what to do.

          Inside of us, it’s like a nest of cockroaches that just keeps breeding and taking up more space with ick, until it feels like we’re going to explode with them. Talking means we pull out the problem, figure out what it looks like, then in the process we figure out what we think, and can identify a solution.

          Verbal processors need to talk to figure things out. Advice when the cockroaches are still inside is just awful. Advice once everything is out and processed can be helpful.

    7. Becky*

      Part of it may also be that the job market is a lot better than it was a few years ago. Overall the US economy is close to full employment (current unemployment rate is 4.4%) and in many places you see high competition between businesses for qualified candidates. The assumption then that many people make is if you can’t find a job in this economy you must be doing something wrong. Now depending on where you are, what your qualifications are and what your specific industry is like all of this can be very different, but most people are thinking broader terms not specific to your circumstance.

    8. Kathenus*

      margarets I’m sorry that you’re feeling a lack of support and empathy. One thing that has been touched on a little is to be clear with people that you’re talking to as to what you want from them – if you want moral support, venting, or commiseration versus advice – start the conversation with that. Generally people want to be helpful, which is why many probably default to advice. They mean it as being helpful, but you perceive it as pointing out things you’re doing wrong. For most people it’s probably not intended that way at all, but I very much understand how it might feel that way to you when you’re trying so hard and feel that you’re doing all the right things. It might simply be a disconnect in communication. Try starting the conversation with your goal of getting moral support, and I’m guessing most people will give you that. Good luck on the job-hunting and getting the support you want, need, and deserve :).

    9. W31RD0*

      You might want to specify that you are not actually looking for advice and simply want someone to commiserate or to share similar stories.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      We don’t get to pick how people show their support for us. It’s good to keep this in mind.

      When my husband passed an older person said to me, ” you have been moping around here for 2 months, you need to get over it and go get a new man.”

      There are so many things wrong here, I cannot count that high. My solution was to distance myself from this person. On the basic level I understand that she thought she was helping. But she actually wasn’t.
      OTH, I have had a lot of people dump endless problems on me. I am not saying you are dumping on people. I am saying that people like me tend to go to action plans, because I have realized that I do not have the strength to listen to people’s problems. That is my problem and no reflection on you at all. On the good news side, I am the type of person who will help when people have something specific they are working on. I suggest look at the person you are talking with, if they seem a little battle worn they may not be able to be a listener for you.

      1. Specialk9*

        You have been grieving for a whole 8 weeks, stop whining and go get a new husband?! I just… Can’t even.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I guess they are a dime a dozen at the convenience store?? Ugh. Some people worry about what to say to a bereaved person and some people don’t give it two minutes of thought.

    11. NaoNao*

      I’ve thought a lot about this, and I think it’s similar to when people “blame the victim” of crimes. It’s this tangled notion that if they can pinpoint what the victim did wrong *and never do it themselves* they’ll never be a victim of a crime. Problem solved!

      I have one friend who keeps reframing my split from my actively alcoholic, emotionally abusive ex as “It’s okay to just break up! You don’t have to be “right” or the injured party!” Except I was, and it gets to me that in her mind, the story is “you both made mistakes” or “it’s okay to just be right for each other!”. But she got left in a very hurtful way by her own ex around the same time and she struggled with feeling lost and not having control over her own life after he took off. So I think it’s more about her own story and struggles than mine and I just remind myself of that rather than explaining for the third time that while drunk, he kicked me and called me horrible names and if that’s not an iron clad reason to leave, I don’t know what is!

      About 20% may just be clueless or trying to help in some way that comes off annoying or hurtful, but most are:

      Distancing themselves from negativity (this is instinctive, as people have this built in need to get away from tragedy, disaster and difficulty, no matter the relationship. My mom was going through a divorce she didn’t want and didn’t initiate with my dad, and almost ALL of her married female friends dropped her as if divorce was communicable. Similar things will happen with disease, deaths in the family, or losses. It sucks, but it’s part of human nature)

      Trying to find some way to help and failing miserably. SO many people lack introspection or self awareness. It never occurs to them that they themselves would be hurt and annoyed by the very advice they’ve given. They’re just like “well…let me give this cliched advice that might help!”

      They’re assuring themselves of their own competence and superiority. I hate to sound like a “get off my lawn” type, but a lot of socializing, especially on the internet or social media seems to be about blasting your 2 cents all over (regardless of the actual demand for such), putting yourself up by putting others down, braying out your ill-thought-out, abrasive opinions, and promoting yourself as an expert. It’s just become so common that it no longer seems rude or odd when people post all caps “GET OVER IT” on tragedy updates or “LOL” about racist or sexist jokes, etc.

  63. Free Meerkats*

    New guy, Ver 2.0 started Monday. He seems to be a better fit than Version 1.0. We spent a day and a half in the truck together on Wednesday and Thursday. He seems to be picking up stuff quickly; but he’s done most of it before in previous job, just with different equipment and procedures.

    He moved up here alone (1600 miles) while his wife goes through custody discussions with her ex and gets the house ready to sell. It’s rough on them, but it will work out, I’m sure.

  64. Master Bean Counter*

    Tips for handling a coworker who’s a bit insufferable?
    Dude is a rabid sports fan. I thought it cute at first but when he started to sing along with his ring tone, which is a college fight song, it was no longer cute. Never mind the fact that I really shouldn’t know what ring tone he has to being with.
    Dude has sat in a meeting with me where he took shared credit for a project that he didn’t have much to do with at all. Dude also tends to be a bit of a know-it-all and doesn’t want to listen–But this is showing signs of wearing away as his newness is also wearing off.
    Also when speaking to our owners Dude says “um” for every other word. Which I realize is more of a personal preference and annoyance to me.
    But Dude is technically supposed to be my boss until a reorg happens around this office. And I sense that is coming soon. But he isn’t my boss yet as he’s still newish and my old boss moved up and I’m still under him.
    I’m almost okay with him as a coworker, if he’d actually listen. But the thought of him as my boss sends me running for the hills. So a talk with my current boss about how the reorg looks in his head is in order.

  65. Dr. Doll*

    Academics: Just because academia *tolerates* 7-page narrow margin 10-point font cover letters and 23 page poorly formatted cv’s does not mean that you SHOULD submit those things when applying.

  66. GottaQuit*

    I’m thinking of resigning, with nothing lined up. I’m recovering from an injury, which I think has been worsened by stress. Half our team have left, they’re not getting replaced, and we’re having to make up a number of people’s roles. Stuff is getting dropped, people are stressed and even our temps are jumping ship add to this sales are majorly down. It’s all pretty dismal, as is morale and motivation. I was prepared to stick it out and apply for jobs alongside, because I was told point blank there was no possibility for advancement, and I’m no longer challenged in any way (besides having too much to do and weird priorities.) However I’m now in a lot of pain, really stressed, and worried about my job, a job that isn’t going to lead to anything. I also write on the side, and because of my injury/stress I might not make a load of deadlines for job applications and writing competitions. It feels like it would be better to resign, recover and apply for stuff. Unfortuantely I think I have to do this for my mental health, I was seeing a counsellor, with big plans for changing my life but continuous disasters at work really torpedoeed that.

    Really what I want to know is once I finally get interviews, what do I say about why I left? I originally was going to use the legitimate answer that I was informed there were no senior roles available and I was no longer challenged. But now I’d be quitting before getting a job (unless I can line it up in my notice period) and am legitimately really stressed/tired and sick. Is it fine to stick with the original answer?

    Side-note – there potentially is a senior role available, however everything seems so toxic and poorly managed I’m not sure it’s worth me sticking around to apply.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      If you take a class during the break, that will look a little better. You could say that you left a company that was slowly collapsing and you decided to take that as an opportunity to fine tune your skills and looks for a great position at a great company.

    4. DDJ*

      Any chance, since you’re looking at leaving anyway, that you could kind of…check out a little bit? Just…do as much as you can and not worry about the rest? I know that it would probably feel like bailing out a boat using a thimble…but maybe it would make it more bearable so you can at least stay on while you job hunt.

      I’m sorry you’re going through this though, it sounds really rough.

      I think you could actually say, in terms of interviews, that you left because you were told that professional growth would’t be an option for you if you stayed, and you decided it would be better to focus your efforts on finding a good fit rather than staying in a job that was no longer a good fit. Maybe?

      1. GottaQuit*

        This is kind of the problem, I keep getting thrown new things. We’re being told that everyone’s aware that we’re overloaded, but then everything is expected to be done now, at high priority, and there’s always more. So I have been dropping things anyway, unintentionally, and now this is having ramifications.
        I’m having some time off to recover, so it might be that being sick/stressed is making it seem a whole lot worse than it is. But the health issues on top of everything else is really pushing me to the edge where I can’t be bothered anymore. I’d like to quit now, and not give any notice (I won’t.) But previously I was terrified of giving up this job because I’ve struggled so much to get jobs in general, and spent a lot of time temping before this, which I hated. Now not instantly finding something and temping for a while doesn’t seem that bad. I wish I’d felt this way when I was like temping and looking for a job for a year.

    5. Don't Do It*

      Don’t do it. I resigned 5 weeks into a new job because it was a toxic environment, and I was crying literally every day at lunch. I had been working on getting back to my old company (different role) and thought it would be wrapped up and ready before the end of the month. Instead, I am still waiting two weeks later and desperately wish I had toughed it out at the crappy job just to at least keep benefits. Now we’re paying crazy premiums starting Oct 1, and I am feverishly applying to jobs while I (continue) to wait on my former company. I wish I hadn’t acted on my misery so quickly.

  67. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

    I had an amazingly satisfying experience earlier this week and I really need to share it!

    My last role ended up being an absolute disaster – I was promoted into a group that was highly toxic and dysfunctional (I learned my lesson about doing thorough due diligence and to always dig deep when evaluating fit) and ended up leaving in less than a year because the stress and impact on my mental health was too great. Thankfully I ended up on my feet – I landed a role doing the exact same thing, but in a larger organization, within a much more functional department and at almost double the salary.

    I did feel rather mistreated and a bit bitter about how things went down in my last role, but I’m a big believer in living well is the best revenge. Things are going very well in this new role. The experience at the last role really effected my self-confidence and I was seriously doubting my ability to accurately asses situations and my own personal strengths/weaknesses, but this new role has helped me regain my confidence. However, the opportunity for a bit of karma came around, and I can not deny how satisfying it was.

    My work now includes interacting closely with a couple of recruiters. One of those recruiters gave me a call to discuss something unrelated to our typical interactions. He had a candidate who had been offered a role in the same department as my former role (I think he saw on LinkedIn that I used to work there), but he had heard some negative things about the company and was seeking some additional information/feedback so that he could do right by this candidate. In general, I try to remain very nuetral about my experience at former company – but I trust this recruiter (and the bridge with that former department was all but set ablaze by the end of my tenure there), so I was VERY upfront with him about my experience there. I think I did a good job remaining factual and providing very objective points about the department, but I did not hold back. I was clear that a very specific type of person would do ok in the dept, but that I did not think the group was very good communicating their needs/style.

    I definitely do not go out of my way to disparage this company/former co-workers, but I can’t deny that it felt good to unload a bit when the opportunity presented itself. I really wanted to can prevent someone else from having the same negative experience that I did. if I could. Also – the fact that this recruiter was doing some research on the company and seemed to genuinely want to help the candidate avoid a poor fit really spoke volumes to me. I know exactly who I will be reaching out first when I do think its time to move on from my current role.

    Anyway – I know it probably sounds a little petty to feel so satisfied about something like this, but hey – it can be a small world sometimes.

    1. Emily S.*

      I think it’s awesome that you were so candid about the toxic culture. Really, that’s doing a service to the recruiter and the candidate.

  68. Nonprofit Director*

    I am a manager at a medium sized nonprofit agency in New York City. We have recently expanded our departments, and are looking to hire a lot of line staff and front line supervisors. We do the normal recruitment, such as Idealist, Indeed, employee referrals, etc., but we are not finding enough quality candidates. I am wondering what “outside of the box” recruitment strategies you have found successful?

      1. Nonprofit Director*

        We are lucky to have a few relationships with great agencies; however, their fees can be pricey!

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          If you’re looking to hire a number of folks, they may be willing to negotiate a volume discount.

    2. Anony*

      I’m just speaking for myself here, and I’m in the ‘happy with my job, but kinda low-key searching’ segment. But, if you pay market rate or better and put the amount you pay in the job posting, I am much more likely to apply for it.

    3. zora*

      are there any local nonprofit and/or young nonprofit professional listservs or groups? In the Bay Area, I’m part of the YNPN network, and lots of jobs get posted on those lists. I found my last nonprofit job through a sector specific listserv on the issue I worked on. I’d look for other kinds of networks especially for front line supervisors, you are looking for people who are already working in your sector and are really good and ready to jump up to their first supervisory job.

    4. Pineapple Incident*

      Look for professional networks related to your company’s field and see if they have a job board/site for postings, or an email listserv that would be willing to send out your announcement! You can also reach out to universities which usually have a free job board for students and/0r alumni to use; the one my university uses lets job posters gear their recruitment toward specific skillsets/majors.

  69. Overeducated*

    Guys, I got referred for a federal job!!! That almost never happens because there is almost no hiring, and it’s hard to make the cert after preference for existing federal employees and veterans are taken into account. I’d actually gotten an email notice a couple weeks ago that I was NOT referred, but apparently that was because the first cert was veterans only and it didn’t work out so they put out a new one.

    I had a weird impromptu semi-phone screen with the hiring manager yesterday, who told me a lot about the program and asked if I was still interested, but didn’t have any questions for me other than that; he just said he had to call everyone on the cert, see who was still available, and then “decide whether to have interviews or just hire who he liked most.” Okay. Wish me luck, my fingers are crossed!

    1. BlueWolf*

      Someone actually called you? That’s amazing! I spent a lot of time sending out applications in USAJobs and never got anywhere close to that point. Good luck!

      1. Overeducated*

        Yeah, my call back rate for federal jobs is significantly lower than my average. It’s hard to get through that first screening. I’d actually kind of given up on it a few weeks ago so now hope is alive in me again.

        Thanks for the good wishes!

  70. Manders*

    My husband is a former adjunct who left his PhD program to teach high school. He sent me this article today: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/28/adjunct-professors-homeless-sex-work-academia-poverty

    A lot of our friends want to be professors, and honestly, I worry about them. It feels like something going to have to change soon, but I don’t know what *can* change in academia. My husband was already breaking his student union’s rules to work longer hours unpaid, and his department was still treating him like he was a slacker (and when he left because he really needed a job that paid a living wage, most of the department refused to speak to him).

    2. Essie*

      I read that article and felt terrible. That’s the kind of scenario I think of when daydreaming about winning the lotto: finding all the people in that article and anonymously buying them houses. Society can’t function without good teachers.

    3. Overeducated*

      I saw that article too, but it really made me wonder whether and how seriously the people profiled have tried to find work out of academia. Adjuncting instead of seeking full time work out of my field was just not something I even considered. I suspect in a lot of these cases, it is combined with lack of mobility in places with poor job prospects (which I really sympathize with, there are good reasons people can’t move) and ageism in hiring (it’s easier to transition to a new field at 32 than 62), which both could make finding full time work in another field harder than it was for your husband or for me.

      I think academic labor practices are getting really, inexcusably bad, but the only way that’s going to change is for us to stop lining ourselves up to be exploited, and for professors and departments to stop admitting so many grad students. My department had a good record, I’d say more than half of our students get tenure track jobs, but I’m still horrified that in the last year of my PhD, they admitted 14 new grad students. 14! There probably aren’t even 140 full time jobs in our field in a given year! I honestly think that’s unethical.

      Full disclosure: my husband’s adjuncting right now because it’s “my turn” to make some progress in my career before our next move. He hasn’t given up on the academic dream, and really this year’s application cycle is the first one where he feels very competitive on the tenure-track job market. But we can do that just because 1) I intentionally took a job that has a lot of drawbacks, but pays enough to keep our family sheltered, clothed, insured, etc., and 2) his teaching specialty is fairly in demand and pays decently. It’s not as good for our family finances as two full-time jobs would be, but mutual compromise is what marriage looks like sometimes.

      2. Manders*

        Yes, I was talking about the same thing with my husband today. His department did everything they could to discourage students from considering work outside the field, while also admitting way more students than they could find work for or even fund adequately. The department was pretty open about the fact that they expected their students to have a non-academic partner or parents who would cover food and housing.

        I think you’re totally right that the people profiled in the article aren’t looking for work outside of academia. Middle and high schools love hiring people with advanced degrees and teaching experience, but I know very few academics who will take those jobs (and taking a job at a private high school is what brought on my husband’s shunning). It’s so weird–I know people in other highly competitive “dream career”-type fields, and I’ve never seen anyone else get treated so badly for admitting they need a different job or they’re burning out.

        1. Overeducated*

          Wow, that’s bad. If you can’t fund your own grad students, you have too many. My department had its issues, clearly, but our professors at least fought for us to get sufficient funding to complete our degrees without having to rely on parents or partners. It was 5-6 years of stable, fully funded employment with good health insurance, which is a huge, huge reason I didn’t drop out ABD. (Still, it was harder for students with families and international students, for whom $25K doesn’t go as far as it does for single Americans.)

          Honestly, I’d strongly consider taking a job at a private high school if my current applied track doesn’t work out – all the people I know who’ve done that are just thrilled with their jobs, and I miss academic breaks a lot, but I doubt I have enough teaching experience. I managed to get through with only two semesters of teaching assistantships, one summer class for high schoolers, and three years of a very part-time high school outreach program. If your husband has any advice on that front, please pass it on ;)

          One sad thing I’ve seen in my applied work is that the academic status hierarchy is still a thing outside of academia – I work with lots of people with PhDs, but often university professors are the people we contract out to actually do lots of our research, or consult as subject matter experts, or represent our field in public outreach collaborations. I definitely didn’t expect that among people with equivalent qualifications, the people in academic positions would be considered more “expert,” and it is kind of demoralizing sometimes. No wonder departments aren’t that supportive of alternate tracks.

          1. LAI*

            I just wanted to mention a side effect we’re seeing now of admitting fewer grad students. Some departments are cutting their graduate admissions for precisely the reason you mention – then they don’t have enough grad students to teach courses for undergrads. Faculty can’t teach 100+ student lectures without assistance from graduate students to lead discussion sections, read papers, etc. So you have smaller classes and fewer undergraduate majors, and so then the university won’t approve funding for more faculty *because* you have fewer students. So it’s a complicated issue.

            But I very much agree that departments that refuse to limit their grad admissions *and* refuse to talk to their students about alternate careers outside academia are contributing to the problem.

            1. Manders*

              Oh yeah, my husband’s department definitely ended up with that problem. The school allocated funding for departments based on how many undergrads were majoring in that department, which meant massive class sizes, which meant they needed a lot of grad students to pick up the slack that professors wouldn’t cover. And then the department would do questionable things like failing students up and allowing students who really could not function in college level classes to continue with the major, then let them fail their upper-level classes when they were about to graduate.

              It was just a mess all around. I don’t wholly blame the department–there were a lot of other factors, from our state’s tax laws to an unexpected rise in cost of living–involved in letting it get that bad, but it really turned me off going back to school for an advanced degree.

              Strangely enough, while his former professors are refusing to speak to him, the department’s admins have been asking him to come back and give a talk for their professionalization courses.

              1. JaneB*

                It’s not just stuff professors WOULDNT do, it’s stuff they CANT do because it creates a massive overload…

        2. BRR*

          My husband got a PhD in the humanities from a pretty low ranked school and I always said they treat the topic of not getting a teaching job like Voldemort.

      3. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I also saw this article and thought why aren’t these adjuncts looking for work outside academia that still uses their skills?

        I graduated with a social science PhD (in a field without a strong track-record for lots of applied jobs) in a tough academic job market. I did adjunct for a while, but I did it while also working an analyst job (started out temping). That got me enough “officey”, non-academic cred to get an applied job in my field. I get that there aren’t as many applied jobs out there for humanities PhDs, but really, a lot of those critical-thinking skills are more transferable than you’d initially assume. The trick is to sell it to employers.

        I also agree with the issue of over-admitting into grad schools. There were 6 of us in my grad school cohort. The year I graduated my department started a cohort of 18!

        1. AcademiaNut*

          I think that people don’t start out planning to make a career of poorly paid adjunct positions. They finish their PhD and apply for jobs, and the adjunct position is what they get. They figure they can handle it for a few years until they get a faculty position. But the faculty position doesn’t arrive. And they keep hanging on by their fingernails, underpaid and overworked, hoping that this year will be the magic one. But the reality is that the longer they work as an adjunct, the lower the chances they’ll actually get a faculty job are, as they don’t have the time or resources to be doing serious research and publishing.

          So at some point they need to decide that this isn’t working, and take decisive steps to move on to something that will pay the bills, even if that means moving outside of academia, or teaching at the high school level, or getting some additional training that makes them marketable. Psychologically, though, that can be a hard thing to do.

          I do think that the programs themselves should do more to be brutally honest to starry-eyed young graduate and undergraduate students about the chances of getting full time employment in academia, and the need to be willing to move for work. But I’ve also found that starry-eyed young graduate students are remarkably resistant to being told negative things. They fully believe that they are smart and talented and hard working and personable, and they’ll be the one who succeeds and gets that faculty position (in a city they want to live in, where their spouse can get work).

          I do tell undergrads in my field that if they can’t get a funded position at a good university not to bother, because the chances of getting an academic job with a second-tier PhD are minimal. My field has the advantage of a relatively clear path to non-academic work, and a reasonable number of postdocs, so for us it’s not so much getting stuck in the adjunct phase as going from postdoc to postdoc or other term contracts (often in different countries), until we get fed up.

  71. Don't tell anyone I'm here*

    So, my office roomie was recently fired. They brought back the woman who she replaced until they can hire someone new. This woman is abrasive, negative, often makes snide comments to me, (…my favorite one was the comment on the “decorations” I have on my desk, saying they shouldn’t be there and that they were nothing more than a distraction…my decor is a photo of my recently deceased father. She’s fun.), and is just generally unpleasant to be around. It’s a temporary situation, but I’d love some help on how to get through this in the meantime. I LOVE my job and everyone else in the office, but I find myself dreading waking up and going into work now, and it’s quite disconcerting. Thank you!

    1. WellRed*

      If she’s negative, you should annoy her with over-positiveness. “Your dress is ugly.” “Thank you! It’s my favorite!”

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      As much as you can, don’t engage when she baits you with some rude comment. Be really boring to talk to. Use “mhmmm” frequently as a response to whatever obnoxious thing she says. Of course, be responsive to legitimate work issues, but you don’t owe her any small talk. Also, getting up and leaving (if you can) gets you away from her and gives you some time to cool off.

      1. Don't tell anyone I'm here*

        You guys are great! She’s actually been super nice today…which is almost scarier than when she’s herself. I am lucky as I get to travel between our 3 locations during the week, so some days I won’t have to see her at all. I will get through!

  72. Kate*

    My phone broke mid interview process. Would it be appropriate for me to inform the company that I interviewed with that in the interum, I’d like to be contacted at a different number until my phone is fixed? Or is having email contact sufficient?

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Let them know now! You don’t want them to think that you’re either unresponsive or unenthusiastic, and while it’s a little unfair, it would be pretty common for interviewers to lean in one of those directions if they don’t get a prompt reply to voicemails.

      Can you forward the number for the phone that broke to the different number? Check with the provider, or log onto your account with them, sometimes you can do it online.

      1. Kate*

        The truth is that I lost my phone in an uber, and I’m trying to get it back. I don’t want to forward the calls to another number. (I want to be able to prove that it’s my phone by calling it.)

        Would it be reasonable to say that my phone isn’t working at the moment, I’m looking into it. In the meantime, please contact me at (house phone)?

          1. Kate*

            Thanks! I don’t want to lie, but the job description requires a responsible candidate, and losing my phone does not make me look responsible. I’ve already taken all the steps I can to ensure it’s return, and I’m on plan B.

            Thank you for answering that. I know it’s stupid sounding, but I’m really nervous about it.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              I promise you that they don’t care what the reason is for your phone not working and you don’t need to give them a reason! All they care about is “We need to use this other number for her. Got it.”

        2. The Cosmic Avenger*

          But, in case you get a less than completely reasonable and accommodating interviewer, or in case not everyone gets the notice to use a different number, I’d still try to forward my cell to my home phone, and then text the lost cell phone as proof that the phone is mine…or, at least, that I know the number of the phone. Or, assuming you don’t have a password or similar security that only you should know, you can always describe the lock screen. Although I guess not everyone has personalized theirs. Because while what you’re asking is reasonable, I’d still hesitate to ask it of an interviewer if I could at all help it. But that doesn’t mean you can’t ask. I’m just saying that if you can figure out something that works for you and doesn’t require any extra effort or trouble from the interviewer, I’d think that would be preferable.

  73. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    And in other news, I have an interview scheduled for next Wednesday with the search company for Amazing-Sounding Job in Chicago, and I’m really warming to the idea of moving to Chicago. I’m totally qualified for this job, and I’ve gotten an offer for almost every job I’ve been asked to interview for (a major THANK YOU to AAM for all the search/cover letter/interview advice), so while I know they will have other knockout candidates and I don’t have it in the bag yet, I feel like I have a real chance.

    And if I don’t get the Chicago job, I’ll be hiring my first ever direct report at my current job, so I’ll have some flexibility to build out a small team. I’m feeling good! At least, better about work/career than I have in a long time.

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      So late to the party, but I’m really happy for you! Congratulations on being in this good place- it feels really fulfilling to reach a place where you’re happy about your chances at new opportunities :)

  74. Tris Prior*

    The other night, Boyfriend was gleefully reading the SCATHING Glassdoor reviews of his very toxic company that he’s trying to leave.

    He was less gleeful when he came across reviews from former employees, saying that as they job-hunted to get out of there, they were eventually told (by recruiters and temp agencies) that just having this company on their resume was a huge red flag and was likely why they weren’t getting any responses to their applications. They’d see this company on someone’s resume and promptly toss it in the bin, assuming that the person was poorly trained, incompetent, not knowledgeable, unethical. (All of which are true of many folks at this company but not of Boyfriend.) The company’s rep is apparently that bad. There were multiple reviews that said some variant of this.

    Boyfriend is job hunting and has not yet gotten any responses. Is there anything at all he can do about the bad rep that his company apparently has? He’s been there for more than 7 years so he can’t just leave it off of his resume. I can’t think of anything he can do about it other than switching fields, as presumably other fields wouldn’t have such an in-depth knowledge of how bad this company is. He’s open to that, but since he has other factors against him too (like lack of degree), he’s mostly been searching in his field so that hopefully his many years of experience will carry more weight than not having the damn piece of paper.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Oh, man, I can’t help but wonder if you are in my city and Boyfriend works for my former toxic employer.

      If the company has multiple names, can he use one of the lesser known ones on his resume? For example, my ToxicJob was a corporation called Teapots Inc, but there were different ‘divisions’ and I used “The Best Tea Company” on my resume instead of the corporate identity.

      The other thing he could potentially do would be to address it in his cover letter, though I imagine he would need to do so very carefully.

      1. Tris Prior*

        His division actually DOES have its own corporate name…. hmmmm, maybe it is the same company? Are you by chance in Chicago?

        I thought of that but wondered if it was disingenuous to use the secondary name. I guess it can’t hurt, though; it’s not like he’s lying, they do go by that name.

        Maybe he could address the objections that folks typically have to his company, in his cover letter. Really talk up his ethics, his knowledge in the field, that sort of thing. I agree he’d had to be careful to avoid any whiff of “I know most everyone I work with is awful but I’m not, I promise!”

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          I’m not, but my old company is national.

          Personally, I think it’s fine. I mean, when I answered my phone at OldJob, I used the division name, not the corporate name and the connection between the two wasn’t exceptionally well known. Luckily, in my situation, the parent company was the one who got all the bad press.

    2. Lil Lamb*

      Does he know anyone who has successfully left for a different company? I would tell him to start networking and trying to meet with connections who formerly worked for his company and try to get their advice on this.

      1. Tris Prior*

        The only person he knows who left, came back after a few months because the new place was even worse?!?

        Maybe he could do some LinkedIn networking to see if he can find others who left and are happy where they ended up.

    3. GottaQuit*

      I’m thinking of resigning, with nothing lined up. I’m recovering from an injury, which I think has been worsened by stress. Half our team have left, they’re not getting replaced, and we’re having to make up a number of people’s roles. Stuff is getting dropped, people are stressed and even our temps are jumping ship add to this sales are majorly down. It’s all pretty dismal, as is morale and motivation. I was prepared to stick it out and apply for jobs alongside, because I was told point blank there was no possibility for advancement, and I’m no longer challenged in any way (besides having too much to do and weird priorities.) However I’m now in a lot of pain, really stressed, and worried about my job, a job that isn’t going to lead to anything. I also write on the side, and because of my injury/stress I might not make a load of deadlines for job applications and writing competitions. It feels like it would be better to resign, recover and apply for stuff. Unfortuantely I think I have to do this for my mental health, I was seeing a counsellor, with big plans for changing my life but continuous disasters at work really torpedoeed that.

      Really what I want to know is once I finally get interviews, what do I say about why I left? I originally was going to use the legitimate answer that I was informed there were no senior roles available and I was no longer challenged. But now I’d be quitting before getting a job (unless I can line it up in my notice period) and am legitimately really stressed/tired and sick. Is it fine to stick with the original answer?

      Side-note – there potentially is a senior role available, however everything seems so toxic and poorly managed I’m not sure it’s worth me sticking around to apply.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      It’s possible that the comments are from people who are so disgruntled that they had one conversation like this and they are blowing it out of proportions? Id ask others in the industry if the reputation is really that bad.
      And if it is…I’d bring it up in the cover letter. Something like “I’ve gained experience in x and y at SuperBad Company, and I want to find a more open/team/collaborative environment to continue my career.

    5. GottaQuit*

      e bad points seem to be that he might be poorly trained, unethical, incompetent and unknowledgeable. But he could also be reading the bitter entries of people who prehaps are these things? Also as far as I gather he has yet to apply and experience nothing in return himself. He should maybe only buy into these things once he’s received a lot of rejection himself. By that I mean don’t discount it, and try and perhaps look to offset it, but also don’t take it as the truth before he’s even applied for anything.

      He probably wants to use Alison’s site to make sure his resume is full of what he did and achieved, but also look to maybe gets some training that leads to a qualification that is recognised. This doesn’t have to be a full on degree, for instance there are lots of project management qualifications that could show he has certian abilities.
      Also networking seems a good approach in this instance. I would look at maybe even volunteering or getting a sidegig/freelance role that he can use to show he is ethical and competent.

      But equally he might do fine applying like normal and networking. Internet comments aren’t always reality, and people’s experiences of the hiring process – or what they tell you is their experience isn’t always the whole truth.
      Seven years, could also have included training, promotions and/or expanded duties, whereas you don’t know the background of those anonymous commenters.

      1. Tris Prior*

        He’s been kind of half-assedly applying, when he comes across something that looks interesting, for probably a good year and a half now. No responses whatsoever. I think his resume’s pretty good (I did it!) but his cover letters probably are lacking. I’ve pointed him to the resources here but, well, horses and water and all that. Writing is not one of his strengths, to be honest.

        It could just be bitter ex-employees – but, well, that’s the only kind of ex-employees that place has got, as I understand it, haha. And, Boyfriend wasn’t surprised at all to read that, as many of his co-workers are in fact incompetent and unethical. He just wasn’t quite so aware that others outside the company knew that.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          If coworkers are not competent this is all the more reason to beef up his cover letter. And he needs to stop half-assedly applying , suggest to him that he use his whole butt, that is make a whole commitment to the job hunting process.

        2. GottaQuit*

          Hmm kind of reminds me about where I work, although, this is only the feeling internally (I think and also hope.) Yeah if he actually wants to leave he’ll need to properly work at it. That is majorly draining when where your work is perhaps making you feel crappy by association or by the way they treat you, and then worrying if you’ve invested that amount of time and people outside might not see your achievements for what they are, which is possibly why he’s only applied here and there.
          I’m wondering actually if he needs to cut his losses, perhaps apply for a short term contract at a slightly lower role than he has now, at a well-established firm. Help mend his rep? But equally he might need to rebuild his morale, see his own qualities and abilities, and give himself a breather from whatever crappiness he’s had to deal with. Depends on his field, but he could perhaps temp at companies with better reps, or a range of them, would build his rep and skills. Also means he could put more effort into applying for stuff he really wants. (This may also be advice for myself.) He’s got a great chunk of work history on his resume, so he could think a little outside of the box about what he does next. If this is the rep they have, adding another year working there is investing more in finding it difficult to get out. It might be better to feel like you’ve gone backwards for a while in order to go forwards. Rather than potentially getting stuck at this company, or having to take any job to get out.

        3. Pineapple Incident*

          Honestly it’s probably the half-assed-ness of his application style that isn’t getting him anywhere. AAM often writes about throwing more energy into a targeted search, looking for very specific things in job postings and trying to self-select into hiring opportunities that could work for you. Even if he’s not interested in reading here, he would probably be in a better place if he carved out a certain amount of time every week to review postings related to the ones he’s already applied to, depending on how well the postings match what he’s looking for.

          Good luck! I didn’t end up finding something better than ExJob until I threw all of my out-of-work hours energy into applications, probably 8-10 hours a week. I did a lot of LinkedIn easy-apply, which is actually how I found the gov’t contractor position I’m in now. I made myself a googledoc excel sheet for tracking each position and any responses I received from the companies, which made me feel like I was being active about it.

  75. ThatGirl*

    Customer service irritation from the week…

    If you’re reaching out to a company in the hopes that they will replace a defective product for you, don’t throw said product away before reaching out!!!!

    You can’t waltz into Walmart with no teapot and expect a refund… why would you think we’d give you a new one without proof of purchase?

    1. WellRed*

      OMG. I had someone do this when I worked at my university bookstore. She bought a blank journal, lost it and wanted to know if we could give her money back. I said no.

  76. Is this sexist?*

    Yesterday I was on a call with an executive from a Fortune 10 company; my team was presenting an idea for a new pilot we’d like to try with them. The VP (a man) and Associate VP (also male) spoke first, then it was my turn (I’m a woman – and not a VP).
    I was talking through a slide, when the Exec stopped me to ask “Guess what’s missing from this slide?” Then paused – he actually wanted me to guess. I was thrown off but played along and said “Well, I guess you’re thinking of either Teapots or Llamas” The Client laughed – “It’s Llamas,” he said. And then I went on to explain that the framework is actually about blah-blah-blah, which is why we didn’t mention Llamas, although Llamas are important etc.”
    Afterwards, I was thinking That was awfully strange. I can’t imagine this client stopping my male colleagues to say “Guess what I’m thinking.” It felt very condescending, and there is now a debate around my kitchen table about what I coulda shoulda done. Spouse votes for saying “I’m not going to guess, just tell me.” I am very, very leery about making waves when talking to clients – my gut reaction is always to go with the flow. But I wonder if I undermined myself by playing along.

    What do you guys think?

    1. La Revancha*

      I don’t think that sounds sexist at all. As a younger woman with friends who are SUPER feminist, I often find that they take things out of context because its driven in their mind that men purposefully do sexist things all the time. I’m not saying you’re like this at all, but I see it happen a lot with them. Just because he interrupted you doesn’t mean he’s sexist.

      1. Is this sexist?*

        It’s not the interruption – interruptions are a welcome part of client presentations – it’s the “guess what I’m thinking?” comment that struck me as condescending.

      2. Yorick*

        I disagree. I’ve noticed that some older men do this “let’s play a little game about this like you’re a child” thing with younger women that they never do with younger men.

      3. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        I think “purposefully” is the key word here. People can do sexist things without realizing it, like making patronizing comments to women that they wouldn’t make to men, all the time. I don’t think finding a comment offputting and sexist necessarily means thinking the person who made the comment is being deliberate about it.

        Maybe this dude would’ve said the same thing to a man, I don’t know. But I do think it’s undermining to make someone “guess” in front of clients, regardless.

      4. all aboard the anon train*

        I totally get where you’re coming from since I’ve known people like that, but a lot of women are also told to second guess any sexist vibes they get from someone.

        I’ve seen and experienced enough men who like to do the childish guessing game to women because it infantilizes them and calls out their mistakes or lack of knowledge, whereas with men they’d just say, “you’re missing X from your presentation”. Asking the question in a condescending way and expecting a woman to answer is a power play, however slight it may seem.

        1. Anon attorney*

          Exactly. If all he wanted to do was highlighted that llamas had not been mentioned, he could have just said that rather than treating you like a five year old child. I’d have been pissed as well.

      5. Nacho*

        I’d call it low key sexist. It’s not slapping her on the ass, but it’s the kind of thing you don’t do if you respect the person giving the presentation, and the kind of thing that happens more often to women than it does to men.

    3. A.N.O.N.*

      I’m going to disagree with La Revancha and say that it does come across to me as patronizing and sexist (perhaps subconsciously). I could see keeping silent after he asked working as well; you would be making it evident that you were not going to go along with his guessing game, and it would force him to just come out and say it.

      If bothered by the interruption itself, perhaps you could have said “I’ll go over any questions after I finish the slide” or something to that extent (but worded better).

    4. Is this sexist?*

      Thanks guys – I’m glad I’m not totally crazy.

      Here’s the question I have: if I’m talking to a colleague who says something condescending (I’ve had co-workers call me “sweetheart” and “young lady”, and I’m a 40-year-old Director with nearly 20 years of experience in my field) I’m inclined to point it out – gently. I don’t want to cause conflict, but since we’re all friends here, we should be able to speak up when something rubs us the wrong way.

      Clients are an entirely different ball of wax. I don’t know what the right approach is – especially with something that’s subtly patronizing, rather than blatantly hostile. If we lose the deal, I’ve totally screwed up. And yet, and yet…

      PS a pal of mine recommends that when a male co-worker calls me “sweetheart” I should call him sweetheart right back. Ha!

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        I once got so irritated with a temp worker who insisted on calling me sweetheart that I responded, ‘Oh, you sweet summer child.’ In the most nauseatingly sweet voice. Not particularly professional but he never called me sweetheart again.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You can say, “Instead of me guessing, why not tell us your concern so we can address it for you?”

      In private conversations, I have said, “I am not much on guessing games. Tell me what it is you would like us to talk about.”

      The template here is say NO and redirect the conversation before they have a chance to react to the NO.

    7. Specialk9*

      I don’t think you’re reading it wrong. Especially when you’re the only non-exec in a group of execs — it was likely a bit of gender and a bit of classism/social hierarchy. Realistically, my experience us that you’ll end up eating shit from clients sometimes.

      It’s your call how to react, but there aren’t a lot of awesome options. If you say something, you can get pigeonholed as difficult or having an attitude. If you don’t say something, you are allowing bad behavior. I have tried variations on both, and as I became more senior I began choosing length on projects based on those social dynamics as much as the subject matter. I just stopped being willing to swallow so much nonsense just to do my job.

      Switching from reporting to clients, to *being* the client has been an amazing change. I had habituated to a lot of crap.

  77. Lionbridge freelancing?*

    Has anyone ever done freelancing for Lionbridge? I applied for the internet assessor part-time position awhile ago to supplement my income, but when they sent me the tests, I started having second thoughts. It’s a 160 page study manual you basically have to memorize and then three tests – all of which are unpaid.

    I’ve heard that the work isn’t the normal hourly rate, but that it goes by project length. So something they mark as “10 minutes” only counts as 10 minutes even if you spend an hour on it. While the $14/hour is nice, I’m wondering if this will be more hassle than it’s worth. The 160 page manual and test is enough to put me off because I don’t think someone should have to do all that work before they even get a job.

    2. W31RD0*

      I’d have reservations about this as well. That’s a not insignificant amount of work for the chance of getting a $14/job, and on top is the billing issues you listed.

      Is the study manual useful beyond Lionbridge? Maybe you could read it casually and see if you could pick up a similar job outside of this place.

      1. Lionbridge freelancing?*

        No, it’s specific to that company. There are other companies that do similar work, but from what I’ve read of it, the study guide is pretty company specific.

        I was pleased about the opportunity at first, because they require a min/max of 10/20 hours per week and that’s a good chunk of change that would help pay down some medical debt, but now I’m having second thoughts because it definitely is a lot of work for no guarantee of even getting the job.

  78. Trying to look on the bright side*

    My coworker has announced she will be retiring next year and only working 4 days a week until then. My problem is she has already seemed to check out and does as little as she possibly can. (Management seems content to allow this.) So my question is how do I not let this effect my attitude? I now have zero respect for her and her work ethic. Anyway I want to get through the next few months without letting it get to me. Does anyone have any advice or mantras for not letting a work situation like this get to you? I know I should just let it not bother me but I’m stuck on what to tell myself to get there.

    1. JN*

      Might be that all you can do is tell yourself to focus on what you can control rather than what you can’t. If there are things that only she has done or that only she knows, perhaps you can create some motivation for yourself and help the company out by mentioning the benefits of a smooth transition and conveyance of her institutional knowledge and ask if there’s any way you can assist with that. May or may not work, if the higher-ups don’t seem to mind her already having somewhat checked out, but at least you’ll have been a conscientious employee by reminded everyone else that somethings would still need to be done before coworker rides off into the sunset for the last time.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “I promise me that on January 1, 2018 I can jump up and down and scream ‘I won, I won!’.”

    3. Nacho*

      Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens a lot for various reasons. Assuming you’re not being asked to pick up her slack or anything, just remember that it doesn’t affect you, and that there are lots of unfair things in this world; if you got pissed off at all of them, you’d never be happy.

    4. Specialk9*

      You’re taking it pretty personally. Her worth does not depend on her job. Most people don’t see work as some grand calling, it’s just a thing to do to pay the bills. Her sliding a bit isn’t some great deception and hoodwinking of management – they know what’s going on, and they’re ok with it. So stop judging her as an affront to you and your standards – it’s not about you, and you don’t know the full story. Not your circus, not your monkeys to train.

      1. Trying to look on the bright side*

        I know this is late but I should add we are direct backups for each other. I do end up picking up the slack and trying to work when she wants to chat to avoid her work. I also cover her work on the day she is off. I believe its you who doesn’t know the full story.

  79. LosingMyMarbles*

    I’ve been refreshing the page all morning in anticipation for this thread. I really need a pep talk/advice/someone to tell me I’m not crazy. When I first started my job I already knew it was going to be stressful and really underpaid, but I accepted it because it was a job in my competitive industry, and I needed it. I have four direct managers who all give me work. Before I got to the 6 month mark I had a small breakdown where everyone around me tried to convince me to quit because my stress level was so unhealthy. But I toughed it out and things got better. But now, I’ve been doing my already intense workload, have had an increase in responsibility, and since someone got promoted I’ve been covering for her team. Essentially working for 8 different people. I’m so busy I can’t even concentrate. There are so many things to do that I feel overwhelmed, and have had to go to go for walks or take a moment to breathe in the bathroom. On Sundays I feel like crying because I’m dreading going into the office and seeing all the work I have to do. I am fighting the urge to just walk off the job. I try to communicate with my bosses that it’s too much, but I undermine myself by making light of it sometimes. Because honestly there’s probably nothing they can do to make it better anyway. More money isn’t going to make this better, and there’s not enough money in the budget to hire more assistants. I know I just have to leave. But I need to find a way to stay long enough to find a new job, and I’m not sure I’m capable of it in my current mental state.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      That sounds so stressful and I’m sorry you’re dealing with it.

      First, I would ask what the time line is for hiring a replacement for the team that you are covering for. Let them know that it is not sustainable for you to continue doing two full time jobs. Ask if it’s possibly to get a temp in to help until they fill the position permanently.

      Second, make use of your Outlook Calendar to communicate what you are doing when and for whom (maybe color code each manager’s tasks) and share with all of them so they can see your workload. Don’t be afraid to say “I have to finish the Teapots report by noon tomorrow, so I won’t be able to get to the TPS report until after that.” when someone gives you additional tasks.

    2. Specialk9*

      Aw man that’s hard!

      Step 1 is to drop the fake joking thing. Talk to your managers – 8?! – and come armed with a typical day, or other useful way of communicating all you’re working on and how little time you have to dedicate to each task. Request for 1) a single manager, and 2) a more reasonable work load.

      Do not apologize or act guilty for this. It’s utterly unreasonable. They may well use guilt and manipulation (because unreasonable people do unreasonable and shady things to get their way), so read through this site and Captain Awkward to get set on reasonable boundary setting.

  80. De Minimis*

    Everyone’s anxious today…we’re federally funded and we’re supposed to find out today about some grants that are vital to our future operations. This is the last day of the fiscal year, so we’ll have to find out today. If we don’t get either, we’ll be okay next calendar year, but after that cuts will have to be made.

    These are grants we’ve gotten before, but no telling what will happen. I’m wondering if we didn’t get them since we haven’t been informed by now.

    I’m looking to leave sometime next year anyway, but concerned for other staff.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      We’re having last day of the fiscal year issues over here at Teapot Library as well, though not as stressful as it sounds like yours are!

      1. De Minimis*

        I’m also anxious because I may find out before most other people due to my role, and I’ll probably have to keep my mouth shut if it’s bad news. We’re expecting mixed news, approval for grant A or grant B, probably not both, but also not a no for both either.

        1. De Minimis*

          No news, and it’s almost 6 PM eastern time.

          My guess is the whole process is just delayed, since it seems like a lot of processes have been delayed/altered as new leadership has come into the various federal agencies, and we will probably just not hear anything till next week.

          Either that or they’re just going to send an automated “Sorry..” e-mail late tonight.

          1. De Minimis*

            My supervisor just got a phone call, I think they know something, just not sure what. I’m thinking it’s bad news but that’s probably just me.

                1. De Minimis*

                  It’s shaping up to be pretty bad, I guess we’ll learn more this week. They’ve had to do mass job cuts in the past, and I’ve heard they were always super fair and transparent with everyone.
                  I suspect it may happen to me, they’ve gone long periods without someone in my role before.j
                  Oh well, I was going to start applying to other jobs early next year, so I guess I’ll just start a little sooner.

                  I almost want to tell them I’m planning on leaving anyway so they don’t cut someone else who wants to stay, but probably not wise to do that.

  81. Coalea*

    I know it has been discussed on this site before that, unlike in the US where employees are usually “at will,” other countries often favor contracts, which can make it much harder to fire someone. Does anyone know how it works for US-based companies with branches abroad? Would those non-US employees likely be under contract as well?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s governed by the laws of the country where the person is working (just like it’s governed by the laws of the state where the person is working here, even if the company is in a different state).

    2. Yams*

      I’ve actually only worked in the foreign branches of American companies, and depending on the country (I’m in Mexico for what it’s worth) you always have to have an employment contract, either collective or not. The law is very firm on this, and the reasons for firing someone (with cause!) are very clearly delineated in the law, you can also fire at will, but you have to pay severance. I was actually shocked when I learned that at will employment was a thing, I would never accept that.

      1. LadyKelvin*

        You would accept it if it was either that or not having a job. Its not like people can push back against employers and say, you have to give me a contract or I won’t take the job. The employer would just find someone else instead.

        1. Yams*

          I mean, under the legal framework under which I currently live that’s not even an issue. It’s literally illegal for my employer to not provide me with a written agreement enumerating both my responsibilities and my rights as a worker. If an employer refuses to provide a contract that means that I’m either working outside the law, or the employer is super sketchy and not reporting me as an employee to the government, which is also illegal.

          Even if no contract were provided, which again is illegal and carries fines, I would still have all my rights as an employee, and you can definitely push back against this. No reputable employer would offer a job without even a simple contract. Heck, you have to sign one to work at McDonald’s.

      2. Blue Anne*

        Heh. Yeah, when I worked in the UK, the concept of being dependent on my employer for healthcare was absolutely terrifying to me.

        Once you’re here, you probably don’t have a choice.

    3. Blue Anne*

      Yes. Many standard practices of the US are just illegal in other countries. Employees of the US based companies may have some quirks in their employment which are unusual for other workers in their countries, but the foreign branch still has to comply with the law in the country where they’re doing business.

      When I worked for the UK branch of a US company I had infinitely better benefits and security than American colleagues who were multiple rungs further up than myself.

  82. Butch Cassidy*

    Team Working-From-Home, sound off!

    I don’t actually like WFH that much, but skipping the commute and saving money on snacks and lunch seemed like a good move for myself today. Now I get to sit in the warm cozy apartment while the rain falls outside.

    1. Emily S.*

      So jealous! I’m sitting in an office, dealing with menstrual cramps, with a strong desire to lay on a sofa, and veg out for the rest of the day.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Oh hai there. Me too. At least the weather is nice.

        If you’re a tea drinker, I highly recommend Adagio’s ‘Red Tent’ blend.

      3. Emi.*

        Ugh I feel ya. In case heat helps, you can get microwavable heat packs that are small enough to fit down the front of your pants and sit right on your uterus. If your shirt is untucked, you can even wear them to meetings. :)

        1. zora*

          I keep a plug in heating pad in my desk and I just use that. Luckily I work with all women, so no one thinks it’s weird. In fact, coworkers often borrow it for themselves!

          But when I worked somewhere else, I still used the heating pad at work when I needed to, I just covered it with my sweater or a shawl, and no one ever called attention to it.

    3. Overeducated*

      I’m not supposed to do it regularly, but our office closed. We’ve been having some facilities issues. I wish it had closed in advance since I’ve lost a lot of work time having to leave the office twice this week, but right now I’m sitting in a coffee shop with a drink, across from my mostly WFH spouse, and it’s awesome to just be out of my cubicle. I wish I could do this every Friday!

    4. Becky*

      I am allowed WFH one day a week, so usually I take it on Fridays. I wouldn’t want to work from home all the time, but I like being able to do it once a week. I can often focus better on longer projects because of fewer interruptions–out of sight out of mind! I’m available by phone and chat, but if I am not at my desk people sometimes won’t ask me questions!

    5. zora*

      I’m working from home today bc I had to go to a doctor’s appointment, so I’ve been in yoga pants all day, had the neighbor cat here keeping me company for a while, and had a chance to do some personal things I needed to take care of.

      It’s really nice for me, but I don’t get as much work done when I work from home, so I feel super guilty.

  83. Shrunken Hippo*

    I quit my job after working just one shift, but I think I ended it in a pretty professional way.

    The day before I was supposed to work my second shift I somehow hurt my back so I called in to work right away to let then know that I was on my way to the hospital and probably wouldn’t be in the next day. After a couple of days of poking and prodding it looks like there are some serious issues and I wouldn’t be able to continue working at my job. I took a while to calm myself and then called my boss to let him know what was happening. He said he had to take me off the team and my check would be mailed to me. I thanked him and hung up. I think that was the best way for me to handle it and at least I didn’t break down in tears over the phone. Now to figure out what I’m going to do next…

    1. Molly*

      Small world. I just quit a job after 1 day too. It was just a seasonal, part time gig that I knew from hour one I would absolutely hate going forward. I felt incredibly awkward making that phone call. I think you did the right thing. I wouldn’t expect they’d hold it against you.

  84. AwkwardKaterpillar*

    Higher Education – Resume Question
    I’m currently a Master’s student, and working full time – but am looking to transition into an on campus job. I asked my advisor for help in making sure my resume was up to date, and he gave me some feedback that I’m struggling with a little. He said instead of listing your jobs, with accomplishments, etc – he said to list skills, and examples of those skills. It feels like an odd format to me and I’m having issues with it. Is this a normal layout for higher education or is he off base?

    1. JN*

      Maybe it depends on your field, but that would be new to me. I work at a university and haven’t heard any advice to list skills predominantly and minimize where you learned or utilized them. Does your university have a career center that you could ask? Someone in an office like that might be more familiar with current best practices than your advisor might be.

      1. awkwardkaterpillar*

        He mentioned how he serves on search committees often – so I am not sure if it would be field specific? I am going into Education, but am looking for positions all over.

        1. TotesMaGoats*

          Um. No. Jobs with accomplishments is what most of us hiring in higher ed want to see. Just a normal, well polished (AAM approved) resume.

            1. awkwardkaterpillar*

              Thanks to all, I’m going to go with my original resume – created using suggestions from this site.

  85. Camellia*

    Well, I just had to say four words that I never in a million years would have thought I would ever have to say.

    “Your carp are back-ordered.”

    I work from home on Friday’s and my husband went out to get lunch. While he was gone I answered a knock on the door. It was the lake guy for the HOA, leaving an invoice. And that message. Bwahahahahah!!!!!

  86. miyeritari*

    My boss does this annoying-but-acceptable communication thing where, during our 1-on-1s, I would prefer to basically start with an introduction: “today i’d like to talk about A, B, C.” Then i get started on A in detail, B in detail, C in detail.

    But every time I start with “today i’d like to talk about A–” and then we have to go into detail about A NOW. GDI.

    This is only a minor complaint. But a complaint nonetheless.

    2. Overeducated*

      Would it make you feel better to come in with a short written agenda, even emailing it before if that would be appropriate for your relationship and the frequency of your 1-on-1s? That way the topics you want to talk about would be “declared” even if you don’t get time to lay out the plan in person.

    3. Yorick*

      When you structure a sentence this way, the other person can’t see where you’re going. A simple word change might fix it: “I’d like to talk about 3 things today: A, B, and C. Here is some detail on A…”

  87. Anonymous Childcare Person*

    Hey everyone! Long time reader, first time commenter. Okay, so I left my job of 4 years to work at a daycare (I aced the interview thanks to Allison’s guide!) and was fired after a month. My boss initially cited non-work related reasons for the firing (my child’s father called my boss – the director of the daycare – angry because my child had gotten injured at the daycare, but the story is much longer/more complicated than that), but then changed the reasons to work-related after I said I had nothing to do with his actions.

    I know Allison says to leave short stints off the resume. How would I go about doing this without lying? If an employer asks me, “Do you have any experience in the field?” and “Why did you leave your former position?” how do I answer without bringing up my last job? Also, do childcare workers have some kind of “master file” where the short-stint job would be easily discovered? If I do list this job on my resume, I’m worried that the story of why I got fired, and the fact that Former Boss will probably tell a conflicting story is just going to have most interviewers thinking it really isn’t worth the trouble. They have no way of knowing what really happened or if my child’s father is going to cause trouble with them.

    I’d really appreciate any advice on what to say in interviews. Thanks!

    1. NaoNao*

      As far as I know, there is no master file. I’ve worked in a couple different child care positions and I’ve been asked those types of questions, but usually a tactful answer (I wasn’t fired at any, so there’s that) solves it. “It was time to move on” or “The job changed quite a bit and wasn’t a fit anymore”.

      I don’t know the whole story, but generally when people say “it’s complicated” it’s usually not that complicated, it just reflects poorly on the story teller in some way. It’s not always in your control, but that’s generally what I think when someone says “it’s a long story” or “it’s complicated”. I would find a way to tell a streamlined version of the story such as “The Former Boss and I decided that since my own child attended that day care, it was best if I moved to another job” or something that’s pretty much true but doesn’t go into a lot of detail. Already it looks and smells like “drama” that your child’s father called the daycare you work and that your child attends to complain. It’s just too many connections and conflicts.

      Whatever happens, try not to work at the daycare where your child is. If you can, work for a chain daycare and if they have a discount, send Child to one branch and work at another. It may be common in some day cares but it seems like a terrible idea and a conflict of interest as well as a constant distraction, to have you either looking after Child directly or on the same premises as Child all day.

      I realize you can’t control the child’s father either, but if you’re on any kind of talking terms with him, I might go to him and ask him to contact you first, not the daycare, about injuries, etc. Point out that his angry tirade cost you a job and a reliable, discounted daycare for your child. Believe me, I get the angry ex who goes and does self-destructive things that then trickle down to his children and/or spouse. It’s beyond frustrating. But if you’re able, point out that it’s better for YOU to handle this stuff.

      1. Anonymous Childcare Person*

        NaoNao, thanks so much for the advice! I put down “it’s complicated” here because I’m worried telling the whole story will make me too identifiable to future employers who might happen to frequent this site… But maybe that’s just me being paranoid! And you’re right, having my child be at the daycare where I worked wasn’t working well at all. She wasn’t adjusting well and would follow me around crying most of the time. Every employee at the daycare had children there, but their children were a lot older so it worked out better.

        Unfortunately, I had the opportunity to stop her father from calling in and didn’t take it. He asked me if I minded if he called in, and I said he shouldn’t consider me in that decision… Thinking that would keep me separate from anything he did. It was normal for parents to talk to Former Boss about any concerns and I assumed that this would be considered no different than that. Child’s Father was unhappy with the way her injury was handled; I was too but chose not to speak up since I was employed there. Lesson learned that if someone associated with me calls in, it’s going to reflect on me regardless and I needed to be the one to address the concerns with my boss. He knows I got fired because of it.

        Sounds like I should contact Former Boss and see if she will agree to say “It wasn’t a good fit” or something similar to reference checkers. She’s agreed to give me a reference, but I didn’t ask what she would say. Truthfully, the job wasn’t a good fit anyway but I was planning to stick it out because I wanted the children to have some consistency, and I didn’t want to have a short stint on my resume. So that answer would be entirely truthful.

        1. Specialk9*

          Wait, they fired you because your co-parent had an objection to how the daycare was caring for his child?! Oh no no no. Not ok. Your child is not some beggar child with no rights just because you work there. They owe you and your co-parent the same child care professionalism as any parents. Firing you would be unacceptable if you had spoken up with a concern about their handling of your child. Firing you because your co-parent spoke up with a concern… Egregious.

          I’d get my records together, do some internet research and file a complaint against the daycare. https://childcareta.acf.hhs.gov/how-can-i-file-complaint-against-child-care-center-or-provider-andor-learn-if-complaint-has-been

          That doesn’t answer your question, whether to include it on your resume (no), but that’s been addressed elsewhere.

  88. Kay*

    My work schedule is Tuesday-Saturday, and has been for the last 5 years. I was hired with the schedule, and understood that. I’ve been ok with it for quite a while, but I need a change.

    I love my job and my work otherwise. I have gotten promotions and additional responsibilities. I think there is a work-related argument for taking me off regular Saturdays as well; I’m not performing any essential duties on that day, and am just being a warm body to have coverage. They could pay someone else quite a bit less and I could be more useful on a weekday.

    More broadly, it’s gone from being an inconvenience to wreaking havoc on my family life. My husband spends 3/4 weekends out of town because I can’t go with him and we barely have one day together. I struggle to build relationships because I only have Sunday free, and not always then.

    I’m not opposed to working any Saturdays; my job requires occasional evening & weekend hours and I’m fine with that. But every single Saturday is hard. The only way I can get one off is by asking for it months in advance and crossing my fingers that we can find someone else to cover it. I’ve canceled long-made plans when no one else has stepped up, and it caused a small crisis when I had to go to a family funeral two weeks ago.

    How do I frame this argument with my boss? I have my performance review coming up soon and he knows that I’ve got generally too much on my plate, so I need to have a broad conversation with him about what my job should actually entail anyway. I want to frame the conversation as “do you see a path forward or a way in the future that does not have me on every Saturday?”

    To answer questions ahead of time: we’re a small nonprofit, and changing jobs is an absolute last resort. My field is TINY and competitive and there are literally no other open jobs doing what I do in my entire state. I’d have to leave my career if I left this job, and I have worked extremely hard to get where I am and I’m good at it.

    1. fposte*

      I can’t tell if you’re asking for a Monday-Friday workweek or a four-day workweek; I’m guessing the latter. Are you willing to do four ten-hour days (assuming you’re not non-exempt in California) or to take a pay cut for this? If you’re asking for Monday-Friday, are there other obstacles beside the Saturday coverage?

      I can utterly understand what you want to do, and I think it’s a reasonable request that should be listened to as long as you don’t end up requesting being paid the same to be in the office 8 hours fewer per week. I’d start by asking for the schedule change outright and then be willing to negotiate it down to a Saturday per month or so if necessary.

    2. Kathenus*

      I work in a field that requires seven day a week coverage for both line employees and managers. In our organization days off are done by seniority (for most line employee positions) or by position (most full-time managers), so changes in days off are only an option if a set of days off becomes available for some reason. But as fposte says you can certainly ask, and have a plan and justification for how a new schedule would work in case your employer has flexibility. If they do, great. If not, you’ll need to decide whether or not the benefits of the job outweigh the schedule. Hope it works out.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I got out of doing every Saturday with one job by asking that we rotate. I ended up with every third Saturday which was a huge improvement.

    4. LCL*

      Basically tell him what you said in paragraph two of your letter. Don’t frame it as you wrote in paragraph 5- do you see a way I won’t have to work every Saturday? Frame it as I’m not willing to work every Saturday anymore. And you could pay someone much less than me, saving money for the mission.

  89. breadandbutterfly*

    I’m a social media manager, but lately feel like my approach has gotten a bit… stale. Does anyone have recommendations on books, blogs, resources, etc especially regarding strategy? It doesn’t even need to be limited to social media- I’d love to gain some more knowledge about other communications fields (PR, marketing, comms)!

  90. Nutella Jar*

    Has anybody left a toxic workplace and entered their new job feeling like an imposter? Back in July I left my father’s dysfunctional company (low pay, no benefits, no feedback on my work except for criticism, misuse of money, etc.), and in August I moved to a different city where my boyfriend lives and got a wonderful job. Ever since I started at the new job, I’ve received so much praise, and my new boss told me I’ll be getting a raise for my next paycheck. At my last job I was used to feeling like a failure, and I feel I don’t deserve the praise and the raise and feel like I’m a fraud. How do I overcome this imposter syndrome?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I totally understand where you’re coming from. Honestly, for me time helped a lot. And reminding myself that Old Job was just weird because of reasons q-z. They clearly value you because they are doing things to show you that. Embrace that feeling, cherish it. Maybe go to some therapy since your toxic workplace also involved family (my family is also toxic, but that’s totally separate).

    2. Book Lover*

      I remember your old posts. I am so happy you are doing well. I think time should help, perhaps therapy if the thoughts really bother you (in other words, if it is an occasional fleeting thought of being a fraud, you should be fine, but if it is persistent, a bit of help would be a good idea).

    3. miyeritari*

      imposter syndrome is THE WORST. when it tries to hit me, i say to myself over and over: it doesn’t matter what you think. you are not best one at evaluating this task. you are one shitty internet comment in a sea of powerful, well-researched feedback from people who are much more qualified to decide on what is good and what is bad. they all say you are good. that’s what’s important.

      that doesn’t make the voice stop telling me I suck and should be fired, but it’s the best I got.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Practice good self-talk. When ever a negative thought hits, correct yourself with a positive thought. You will not remember to do this all the time. But if you do it half the time, you will notice some difference in how you feel.

  91. Teapot Librarian*

    Update to The Hoarders of our Lives:
    Things are actually going fairly well (knock on wood?). We’ve had a few interactions where we were completely on the same page, and I think that might have helped both of us feel better about the other.
    That said, he’s still a hoarder, he still wears gobs too much cologne, and he never initiates communication with me but expects me to communicate everything with him. It will be interesting to see what he writes in his self-evaluation in the next few weeks…

  92. Mary (in PA)*

    Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh! I just heard back from the job I applied for/interviewed for back in June, with a firm offer letter! I wrote in about this a couple of weeks ago and the delightful fposte gave me good advice, and I admit I was on tenterhooks waiting (because it’s been so long), but it’s finally happening! I am so excited, I can’t even tell you.

      1. Mary (in PA)*

        Oddly enough, my sister is in town for a job interview of her own, so we’re going to have delicious dinner and champagne to celebrate!

  93. Overly emotional workplace*

    Interesting issue this week. My bosses boss (Jane) was fired. Jane is a lovely woman very warm and welcoming and everyone loved her. No one knows what exactly happened, however I’ve been here under a year and though I like Jane personally, I haven’t found her very helpful workwise and in her effort to make everyone happy I find that she would stir the pot a bit (i.e. Before I arrived she found out my predecessor was thinking of leaving and called everyone in the Department to figure out what was going on, if they were happy, what could make it better, etc before they even had interviewed for something new).

    Since Jane has been fired everyone has been super emotional and hard to deal with. They also seem to have the attitude that if you aren’t then you had something to do with her getting fired, talk of protesting, complaining to HR, etc. Though this is a large corporation this location tends to have a “family” atmosphere and a lot of people have spent their entire careers here. I’ve only been here a year, but have been in the professional world 15 years so know these things can get emotional but you can currently cut the tension with a knife. One of my coworkers went home crying yesterday mid day and stayed home today. Any tips on dealing with this? I’m currently hiding in my cube trying to not have to speak with anyone.

    1. WellRed*

      Wait it out. It’s brand new. Though I think it’s weird to go home crying because a coworker was fired. And frankly, she doesn’t sound all that lovely.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Take a second look. I bet you will find some people that are not crying and you will find there are a couple people who make enough noise for ten people. Usually this type of upset is driven by only a couple people but it feels like everyone is doing it.

      Focus on the work itself. Someone says something to you, tell them that you are using your work to distract you from your concern. Yes, lie. Then refuse to discuss it. “I am sorry, I am really trying not to focus on my upset so I must work on this here.”

  94. Nant*

    open thread \o/

    Anyway, specifics: Our workplace recently had some high scale Drama (involving harassment, several firings and the police). A few wires were crossed in communicating about this, and now a colleague of mine (who was one of the drama victims) has become convinced that I was involved in the drama (I wasn’t involved at all), and the reason I wasn’t fired was because I occupy a niche position in the company. Xie doesn’t feel safe working with me due to what happened, and as a result I’m missing out on opportunities and projects because xie won’t work with me, and our managers don’t want to put us together.

    Is there anything I can do here?

    1. JN*

      If your manager would be at all helpful, then starting with a meeting where you can share your concerns about how your coworker’s misguided belief that you were involved in the drama is negatively impacting your career would be a good place to start. But if that doesn’t seem likely, which is sounds from this would be the case, then is there someone higher up (manager’s manager) or HR that could be looped in? (You might still need to show that you tried to work this out with your manager first.) Even if they can’t give specifics on the situation, a grandboss or HR person could (I would think) be able to assure Xie that you weren’t involved and that they need to treat you in the proper way as a coworker. Failing that, you might need to consider whether you can or should stay and if not then start job searching.

      1. Nant*

        Thank you for your help! Unfortunately yeah, it looks like I’ll have to loop our HR guy in – I did speak to my manager about it last week, but he’s very much of the opinion “I can’t make Xie work with you nor can I convince them to believe you without more drama, so my hands are tied.” (we are all highly drama averse following what happened.) I don’t want to leave because I love my job, but also I like not missing out on things due to crossed wires! Anyways, thanks for your response!

        1. JN*

          I’m conflict-averse too, so I can empathize with your manager for not wanting to open up more of that after whatever already happened, yet…he’s a manager. He *ought* to have your back and be willing to advocate for you with Xie’s manager to cut this off asap (or sooner than asap). Hope it works out for you and that HR will be more helpful than your manager was.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      This might not be a good idea, so think carefully.

      You could shoot Xie an email that says, “Things are not what they seem. When you are ready I would love for us to talk.”

    3. LCL*

      Find another job. This company values feelings over performance, which no doubt allowed the situation to get so bad in the first place. You have a coworker who refuses to work with you, hides behind being scared, and management is either scared of the troublemakers or doesn’t care. The way you describe xie, is the kind of person my coworkers call a sh$& stirrer. Stay far away from that person if you want to continue to work there. I’ve seen this before, the professional victim making management their toy. The only cure is tougher management backed by an HR group that knows what they’re doing.

      1. Horrified*

        “the professional victim making management their toy” – been there!

        We can’t know for sure if that is the case in Nant’s situ but I’ve been through something comparable and the victim was a pot-stirrer, problem causer, delicate flower who had management tied up in knots (for awhile). Things didn’t get better until management was able to see the forest and not just her tree, and said victim moved on.

        My advice to Nant would be to speak up to management and/or move on. Xie might be there a while.

  95. Depressed & Stressed*

    Hey guys…
    I’m in need of some encouraging stories. I am a 20-something and I live with my parents. My dad has worked for the same company for 30 years, and was (due to a serious instance of disrespect) just fired.

    I’m freaking out about how my family is going to make things work. My salary barely covers my personal expenses, and my mom’s salary isn’t enough for us to be okay, either.

    Does anyone have an encouraging story? My dad will need to find a new job…and soon.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m sorry your family is going through this.

      Do you know if your father is eligible for unemployment? That would at least give you some breathing room while he figures out what to do next. If he’s not interested in continuing with the same industry, he may want to consider doing some temp assignments so he can dabble in other industries and find out what might be a good fit.

      My dad lost his job after 30+ years because his industry has been largely phased out as part of the digital revolution. It was the only thing he really ever did, so it’s been a struggle for him. He found some part time gigs that he didn’t hate and has been making it work.

    2. Havarti*

      Your parents have been adults for a long while now so they should have the wherewithal to pull themselves through this. Please try not to freak out. Since your expenses may not allow you to chip in monetarily, maybe there are other ways you could help them – taking over some additional chores around the house, etc. Things might get a bit tight. Might be worth sitting down as a family and going over how the household can cut back on expenses until he’s back on his feet. You are an adult but you are not your dad’s parent. Please remember that.

      (I speak as someone who got very freaked out when a loved one was laid off. The stress nearly killed me. To a certain extent, it was a case of “not my circus, not my monkeys.” The person had to put on their adult pants and sort this out themselves.)

    3. Depressed & Stressed*

      I’m not sure if he’ll be eligible for unemployment.

      Yeah, I definitely plan on contributing more via chores, groceries, etc. as much as I can.

      I know he’s the parent- not me- but yeah, it’s stressful and scary and I’m prone to worry. I’m going to do my best to be kind of silent as my parents work things out, but it will affect me in some unknown ways (I’m on his health insurance, some of our basic services (think internet or utilities) were highly reduced in cost because of where he worked, etc.

      Thank you guys for your support. I can’t talk about it IRL, so I really needed to share it somewhere.

      1. anon24*

        I’m sorry you’re going through this. My dad works in an industry where companies often buy each other out, and lay off people with his type of position. He’s worked there his entire life. The job he does you need a college degree for, but he doesn’t have one. If he would ever get laid off he would be in big trouble, because he could never get a similar job and he’s never done anything else. When I lived at home it was always a mild stressor for me just knowing it was a possibility. A year after I moved out he thought he was getting laid off, but it ended up being his boss instead.

        I hope things work out as best as possible for your family. It’s hard when you are an adult but not quite ready to be out on your own so things like this effect you so much.

      2. Havarti*

        Internet Jedi hugs if you need them! I live with my parents too. Depending on what sort of relationship you have with your parents, it may be worth actually talking things over rather than being silent. You don’t want them to become your live-in therapists but definitely talk about how things are going to be handled. You are an adult, not the parent, but neither are you a child to be sheltered from bad things. You want to have as clear an understanding as possible on how these unknown things will affect you. Maybe that would help ease your worry?

        Hopefully your dad will find something quickly. It may not be his dream job or whatever but the important thing is to secure a roof over your heads and food on your plates. He can have the luxury of finding the perfect job once he’s working again.

      3. RVA Cat*

        Jedi hugs as well.
        Are you able to get insurance through your employer? Your dad losing his job and insurance should count as a Qualifying Life Event, plus we’re getting into annual enrollment season anyway. That is something you could take initiative on.
        If not, maybe look for a full-time job with benefits? That has the added bonus that you could compare job-searching notes with your dad without appearing to parent him or try to solve his problems.

  96. AnnaleighUK*

    I posted in the weekend not-work thread that I’m engaged – first off thanks for all the congratulations, I didn’t have time to go back to thank everyone cuz we’re opening the café tomorrow (my fiance’s new business) and we were swamped with last minute stuff for it.

    Anyway, I’m having an annoying time at work now I’ve got a rock on my engagement finger.

    My manager is awesome and she’s really happy for me, co-worker is happy for me, direct report is happy for me. All fine, all females (gender seems to be important here, bear with me). Director, my equivalent on another team and several other males in the office have made comments like ‘oh, typical, this is what happens, they go off and get married and then there’s babies’ or ‘engaged? When’s the baby due?’

    I’ve spoken to my manager about these comments but HR seems to be dismissing them as ‘banter’ whereas I find them quite offensive. I’m hoping as people get used to the fact that ANI IS ENGAGED OMG and the novelty wears off, the comments will stop too. I’ve tried the ‘that’s really offensive and I don’t like your tone’ comment back but every single time I did, I got ‘I was just joking!’

    Really? Am I being over sensitive? I dunno – perspective please!

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Congrats!

      Sorry people are rude. I think you should just respond by staring at them blankly and/or saying “well, that’s rude”. Just shut it down.

    2. Caledonia*

      It’s not banter, it’s rude and insensitive (after all not everyone can have children) The Guardian have run a few articles on this and how women are treated pre/post mat leave.

      You should shut it down.

      1. AnnaleighUK*

        I do try – it’s a bit of a wild leap from an engagement ring to me having a baby, at least that’s my view. I’m going to try withering scorn and good old Scots sarcasm if this continues. Sigh. At least it’s Friday!

      2. Five after Midnight*

        (after all not everyone can or wants to have children) – there, fixed it for you, Caledonia :-)

        In either case, I agree – this is ridiculous and full of sexist assumptions and it riles me to no end (I’m male, BTW). As others said, continue doing what you’re doing and calling people out on it. The reason you get back the “I was just joking” response, is that is really the only way to cover for being called out for rude remarks. I’m guessing the same person will not say it twice if you shut it down. And with time, as you said, the novelty will wear off. Also, look at the bright side: now you know for sure who the jerks are.

        Big congratulations on the engagement!

    3. BlueWolf*

      Sounds like your HR department is pretty useless. :/ These comments are not ok. It would be one thing if they apologized after you told them off and the comments stopped, but the fact that they say “I was just joking” tells me they don’t understand the seriousness of what they’re saying.

      1. Camellia*

        Oh, they understand, but “I was just joking” is their get-out-of-jail-free card. Try replying, “Saying it’s a joke doesn’t make it right.” or some variation thereof.

    5. Blue Anne*

      Ugggghhhhhh.

      When I’ve heard those types of comments, I’ve found it really effective to “not understand” and ask them to explain.

      “Typical, they go off and get married…”
      “Oh, have you had issues with employees getting married? Sorry, how does that affect work?”

      “When’s the baby due?”
      “I didn’t say I was pregnant, I said I was engaged. Why do you think I’m pregnant?”

      It’s really awkward for them to try to explain without sounding like sexist jerks. And also awkward for them because if they try to say “it was a joke”, it was obviously so unfunny that you didn’t even notice it was a joke, which is even worse than you not getting it.

    7. Snark*

      Also, has anyone who was actually just joking had to defend themselves with “just joking, jeeeez?” No.

    8. SarahKay*

      You’re not being over sensitive, they are being rude. Not to mention sexist, and since this is in the UK, rapidly heading for illegal discrimination.
      And on top of all that your HR department is not doing their job if they are dismissing that as banter.
      Good luck with the withering scorn!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      “Why is it that only my male coworkers say that? You know a simple ‘congrats’ works here.”

    10. Ramona Flowers*

      I guess they missed Cameron reminding us of what banter actually is.

      HR are letting you down here. I’d have a chat to the Scotland arm of ACAS.

  97. DevInSTL*

    So I know that if you get an offer from a place, it’s a Universally Bad Idea to then ask for a counter offer from your current employer, but in this case, I’ve been literally told by my boss that that’s probably the only way we’ll get the compensation team to reclassify us in a higher pay grade (background: we’re a data warehousing/analytics team within the HR department and comp classified us as basically glorified HR analysts instead of IT. The IT team that sits within the finance team was classified correctly and has a paygrade 2 above ours. The comp team recently had a project with us and afterwards when they knew the type of work we do, actually said “oh! If we had understood that you’re actually IT, we totally would have classified you higher!” Ugh!).

    So anyway, an old company of mine pinged me this week wanting to know if I’d come back. The pay is about 30% higher than what I’m making now, but the schedule flexibility and WFH options are nil (right now, I WFH at least 2 days a week plus have every other Friday off. It’s a true “just get your work done and we don’t care when you do it” situation), plus I like my current manager. I’m getting slightly bored with the work though, and changing jobs would give me tons of learning experiences. So it’s flexibility and low-stress vs. more pay and more learning opportunities.

    I was thinking that I could maybe ask the one company for their offer in an email (it has to be in some sort of writing) and then use that to go to my current company and ask them to match or at least some amount of raise, then tell the offering company that I don’t feel that I can leave right now but I’d like to revisit the idea in a year or so. Normally I would never entertain the idea of asking for a counter offer from my current company, but since I’ve been told that it’s the only possible recourse, I’m wondering if I should at least try it, as long as I go in fully ok with taking the other job if I’m told “no we can’t match that. Enjoy your next job”.

    My question is I guess, how do I get the offer in writing without raising suspicion in the offering company? I don’t want to burn bridges there because I see myself going back someday…I just don’t know if now is the right time. And will an offer in email even count as “in writing”? I was thinking that if they call, I could say something like “I’d like a few days to talk it over with my husband; could you put these details in an email to me?” but I wonder if that sounds fishy. I’m still on the fence, honestly, about which path to take, so it’s not dishonest to say I’d like more time to talk it over.

    1. JN*

      Has possible new job given you the full benefits package information yet? If not, you might be able to ask for it so that you and your husband can sit down and see if it will work for your family before you give an official answer.

    2. CatCat*

      I wouldn’t mention your husband at all.

      It’s normal to ask for an offer in writing.

      Would you consider the new opportunity of you could WFH and have the same schedule you have now? If so, why not negotiate on that?

      If I were the offering company, I’d wonder why “right now” is not the time to leave and why a year would make a difference. If it’s the schedule, you can say that. “Right now, the time schedule at Offering Company will not work for me, but I would definitely be interested in future opportunities when the schedule is feasible for me.” Obviously, you can’t say that if they were willing to negotiate with you on that though.

      1. DevInSTL*

        There’s no chance of WFH or a flex schedule at the other job, unfortunately (I doubted it since it’s in consulting, and I actually asked at the beginning of all this and they said no)

    3. Yorick*

      Don’t mention the husband, but say you’d like a few days to go through the offer letter. It’s pretty normal to get one in writing.

    4. periwinkle*

      Your company’s compensation group has an idiotic approach if your boss is correct; since they are now aware that your team is misclassified, they should have taken measures to fix that, period, rather than saying “oops, our bad”. Would it really take you getting a job offer for the entire team to get a compensation adjustment? Or would you get a counter-offer while the rest of the team continues to be misclassified and thus underpaid?

      HR analytics is a hot field – which is why you received an offer for 30% bump. Your manager needs to go higher up the chain if necessary to make the case that Comp should classify the role appropriately.

    5. Specialk9*

      I’ve posted before – in consulting my managers openly said that out of session raises come from offer letters. And it was true – I got big raises twice that way. It didn’t put me in the crosshairs, I was respected and things went fine. I left for a career change and stay in contact with many. So not universal bad idea…though I’m certainly open to my experience being the exception rather than rule.

  98. NotThatGardner*

    hi y’all! not sure if this is something anyone can advise on since it’s so individual workplace specific, but thought i’d ask:
    i’m in my first corporate job situation (but corporate retail athletic place, so i still get to wear jeans and sneakers to work, yay!) but not my first job. in previous positions, i’ve been on larger teams or in an admin pool type situation so maybe that affects this too – i’m a team of two, me & my boss, now — that said – why can’t i make any friends?!

    i’ve found a few people who i am friendly with, and say hi to in the kitchen and halls. but people here regularly go to lunch together, drinks after work, sporting events, activities, etc. i feel so alone! i’m used to having true work friends (was just a bridesmaid for a former-work friend! am godmother to another former-colleagues kid!) to have lunch with everyday, or go for drinks, or text/social media with. i know this is a different environment than i’m used to, but everyone else seems to have cracked the code and made friends. i’ve tried a lot of things i’ve seen here – asking leading questions of my colleauges to get them to open up, suggested social things/lunch meetups, and i regularly get enthusiastic but very vague yes/maybe brush offs. i spend most of my day needing to be on my computer with headphones on so i can concentrate on my very computer based work, and this is unusual for my department – most people are collaborative in meetings together, but that’s not my role. plus my boss is remote, in another state. i’m feeling incredibly lonely, and i don’t know what to do!

    if anyone has more ideas, i’d really appreciate it. i suspect there’s probably also just some fitting-in issues — i am … artsy-er? than most of my colleagues in a huge marketing department? but maybe i’m wrong, and there’s something i’m not picking up on.

    1. JN*

      Is this a busy time for your workplace? If so, perhaps people just don’t have time to do things with a new colleague. Or if there’s been lots of turnover in your position, perhaps they want to wait and see if you stick around before investing time in making connections.

      If you feel that your boss (even if they’re in a different location from you) would be approachable on this, you could try asking them if there are ways that you can be involved with your physical coworkers on a project to improve your skills/help the company, and be more in line with the department’s collaborative vibe.

      1. NotThatGardner*

        i’ve actually been here 10 months now (should have noted that), so i don’t think that it’s just a busy time. And your point about turnover may have grounds in a different way – they created this position for me, so it’s never been held before — but people may be wary of it for the same reason, seeing if it sticks in the organization.

        thanks for the insight!

  99. Anono-me*

    University of the People feedback request.

    I’ve been doing online learning in a very haphazard fashion (basically ‘Oh that looks fun’) and I want to change to a more planed and organised approach that will will lead to a more real and substantial skill set.

    The University of the People looks like it might be a good fit. Low cost online learning where I could take one class at a time and not only have the classes fit together to develop a solid skill set, but actually end up with an IT degree.

    Does anyone have any experience with it? How did you like it? What did and didn’t you care for? Are degrees from there taken seriously? How good is the IT program there?

    It is Accredited, but does not have Regional Accreditation. So feedback from anyone who knows just what that difference means, would also be much appreciated.

    (For those if you that don’t know what University of the People is, it is an almost free online University that offers a handful of degrees.)

    Thank you.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Regional Accreditation means that a school (at any level) meets certain government standards and is eligible for federal funding.

      There are tons of other types of accreditation out there. National accrediting bodies tend to focus on subject matter. For example, there are a couple of national nursing accreditations you would look for if you were entering a nursing program.

      A quick look at the UofPeople wiki page shows me that they are affiliated with some fairly credible organizations, which means you would probably get quality education, but I’m unsure how seriously their degrees would be taken by hiring managers.

    2. LAI*

      I’ve never heard of this particular university. In my experience, regional accreditation is the one that counts. But at the same time, the hiring manager (or HR) is the one determining whether your degree “counts”. I work in a university setting so if I got a resume listing a degree from a university I’d never heard of, I’d look up their accreditation status but I don’t know if the average person not in the education field would do the same or if they’d know the difference between regional and national accreditation. I think IT tends to be more concerned with skills than with credentials, no? So I’d say your best bet would be to ask around in your field if there is a particular standard they look for.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Higher Ed Asst Dean here. Regional accreditation is still the accepted norm. We give major side eye (and very little in the way of transfer credit) to people with nationally accredited programs.

    4. Snark*

      National accreditation is basically the lowest bar an institution has to clear; your shady for-profit universities meet this standard, usually, but it’s not exactly something to brag about. Regional accreditation is a higher bar, and it’s the one most established universities have met.

      Depending on where you’re applying, it may not be a big deal, but in all honesty? Seeing “University of the People” on a resume would make one eyebrow run for my hairline like a frightened bunny rabbit.

      1. Anono-me*

        Now I want to go to The University of the People, get my degree , and submit a resume to you. Just to see your eyebrow due the rabbit thing.

    5. W31RD0*

      Sorry I cannot be of help with a review on them. I saw them years ago and thought it was a interesting organization. There can be a bit of risk with online colleges these days and if you are selecting one that is just about free you are minimizing your risk.

  100. Beatrice*

    I have a work friend who is leaving, and I scheduled lunch with her next week to talk about her current role. I’m excited! Her current role would be a promotion for me. I also know her boss, and I couldn’t decide for days whether I should talk to her first or him, and I finally settled on catching up with her and learning about what’s going on with her team these days, and make sure it’s really what I want, before I express interest to her boss.

    I’m frustrated with my current role – I’ve been working for 18 months on a project that was supposed to be my full-time focus for only 9 months, and we just got hit with another 4-month delay. I was told there was a chance of me getting a promotion when the project was done, but the team I was told I might be able to lead evaporated, so I don’t think that’s happening, and I’m not really motivated to stay.

  101. Lora*

    I’m mostly just ranting, but this is one of the weirder professional things that has ever happened to me.

    Started NewJob last November, after leaving OldJob because they had management problems that seemed pretty entrenched – one guy in particular had been there 10 years. It wasn’t particularly challenging and the best thing about it was really the commute and a handful of co-workers. NewJob was supposed to be a step up, paid much better, and was going to be doing Cutting! Edge! Science! Very exciting! Much challenge! Great benefits!

    The drawback was, the group I was hired into was still looking for a VP-level manager. They’d been looking for years to no avail. I had a computer and a phone and a lab, but literally nothing else was set up properly and nobody had any idea what they wanted me to do other than “figure stuff out”. I dug through their data and found that everything was such a disorganized mess that there was no way I could begin to start an analysis of the archival data – nothing was documented, and what was documented was terrible experimental design. I explained this to the guy who hired me, that I would need to do several experiments and he said, “OK, write a protocol and send it to me, but I also need you to get the documentation up to speed.” I wrote up the protocol, sent it to him, and heard exactly nothing. I was put on a task force for data harmonization, and after much interference from a manager in another department, got the data management under control.

    During this time, I had an Idiot Co-worker. Whenever Idiot Co-worker screwed something up, or didn’t feel like doing something, I was tasked with doing it for him. The only job function I didn’t do for him was visiting vendors off-site – another senior engineer did that for him. I managed his people, managed my people, managed schedules and did all the logistical planning, did all the document conversion and tech transfer, set up experiments, sorted out a bunch of software and automation things, designed equipment, wrote specifications, tons of things that were really his job. I raised an eyebrow at it, and when other departments asked why Idiot was still employed, I said, “I can’t answer that, you will have to ask his boss.” So for the past year I had been doing quite a bit to get the lab up to date and run smoothly, along with cleaning up Idiot’s messes, and done some side projects that were helpful to the business. I had increasing numbers of direct reports and was getting more and more responsibility, although still with minimal feedback from the guy who hired me, even when I asked for feedback. I made several proposals though, and they were all fully funded and staffed, so I felt it was safe to assume that even though all the feedback I ever got was, “yes, I agree” I was on the right track. I was annoyed that I wasn’t doing much science and had basically gotten bait-and-switched, but whatever, I was getting to do some fun things as side projects.

    Tuesday I got a meeting request from Idiot – who is a peer with the same exact title, nothing more – to have a meeting. I asked what about and he replied, it will only take a few minutes. I got there, and he and the HR lady were sitting there to tell me I was fired. Idiot said in a very tiny voice, “I’m really sorry that this didn’t work out – I’m sorry!” and then bolted out of the room. I looked at the HR lady and said, “uhhh what? You’re gonna have to explain this to me.” She said, we felt there was no point in doing a PIP or trying to transfer you because you’d already received feedback and nothing had changed. I said no, I NEVER received any feedback. I got nothing but “I agree” and additional responsibilities and reports, why would I have ever thought anything was wrong? She looked unhappy and said, “we know a lot of these new managers aren’t good at having tough conversations, but all we can do is offer training courses to them.” I said yeah, I know senior managers always think they are too cool for school, but you’ve got to understand how this looks to me, in a department where so many senior women leave within a year – we’ve had what, three just this past six months? She said “yeah, I know. We know there’s a problem in this department, and we know the other departments don’t have this problem, especially since (woman boss) took charge. But we’re unfortunately limited in what we can do.”

    They did give me a not-horrible amount of severance, they won’t contest my unemployment, and there’s two old jobs that have positions open and I let my network know that I’d be interested in going back to either of them. I’m pretty confident that I can go back to my boring OldJob – the guy who had been there 10+ years, along with several other dysfunctional people, are gone as there was a takeover that ended up in some shuffling around and a few retirements. I left on good terms and I’m close friends with some of my old colleagues who are still there. Plus, two headhunters already emailed.

    I’m just…completely gobsmacked. Being told you’re being fired for nobody knows what is messed up all by itself – the company made a big huge deal of how they had all these procedures and they never fired anyone if they could possibly help it so I should be extra-careful about hiring. But the fact that the guy who hired me sent a PEER to deliver the news is what is really mind-blowing to me. There aren’t a lot of things that you cannot be a manager if you can’t do it, but being able to fire someone is a big one.

    Just…WTF? I’m rage-cleaning in between phone interviews and emailing my OldJob friends.

    1. Wendy Darling*

      That is goddamn weird. Seriously super weird. I don’t think I have anything useful to say other than clearly that place is meeeeeeeeeeeessed up.

      1. Lora*

        For sure – when I first joined, they were mostly good, but seeing as how I am not the only senior person to leave under mysterious circumstances, their ratings have since tanked. I will definitely add my voice to the chorus.

    3. Malibu Stacey*

      I’m not sure what state you are in, but can you request a copy of everything in your HR file? I know companies can fire you for pretty much anything but it might help your piece of mind to have a file with no disciplinary issues.

      1. Five after Midnight*

        … we felt there was no point in doing a PIP … because you’d already received feedback and nothing had changed. I said no, I NEVER received any feedback.

        It doesn’t sound like she was on PIP. However, she didn’t know about any alleged feedback. Anyway, this is one messed up place. WTF, indeed!

        1. Lora*

          Nope, no PIP, no feedback, no warnings, nada. They didn’t follow a single blessed one of their own procedures. That’s what makes it odd, because I was told during orientation that they have all these procedures so be super careful about hiring because firing someone is difficult and they made all these efforts to avoid it.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Idiot wields too much power. Why.

      The times I have see BS like this is because there is corruption going on. Did you notice any BS on your shoes? Did you accidently happen on to something that you should not have known about?

      Just my take but I think you learned something you were not supposed to know. Bide your time. Some where someone knows what happened. Eventually they will find you and tell you.

      Meanwhile, watch around you for clues. If what I am saying is true clues will start popping up.

      1. Lora*

        Other than Idiot Co-worker was a total incompetent, not really. Their financial situation was surprisingly on the up and up when they implemented SAP for everyone – I’ve seen much MUCH sketchier numbers, in companies large and small. Most people were aware that Idiot was an idiot though. He and Boss will likely be fired within a year: they want to announce an IPO in 2019 but they need one particular project to move quickly and competently, and when Idiot fails to make significant progress and they really hit crunch time, he will be fired and Boss will be either fired or demoted.

      2. Windchime*

        This happened to a close friend of mine. She was a newish employee in a local business and was being trained to do invoicing and other financial things by Long Term Employee. Some of the training didn’t make sense to Friend and she kept asking questions (in order to understand, not to challenge). Long Term Employee didn’t like it and ultimately pulled strings to get Friend fired. A couple years later, there was a big write-up in the paper about how Long Term Employee had embezzled tons of money from the business.

        So there you go. Friend was innocently asking too many good questions and was smart enough that she would have eventually figured out what was going on.

    7. Ann O.*

      Has it been all women who are having this happen to them? I’m wondering if there’s a potential EEOC issue. Everything seems weird including how the HR lady handled things.

      1. Lora*

        Correct, all women, all over 40. And two African Americans. Seeing as how they only had four African Americans to begin with, in a company of 600, it doesn’t look awesome.

  102. Ruth (UK)*

    Just a thing I was reminded of earlier today with the post about the manager always asking her employee when she’s going to lunch because ‘good managers check on employees’ taken a bit out of context…

    When I worked at a fast food place about 5 years ago, I had a manager who did a training day about communication etc. She was told that you should always use people’s names when talking to them as it makes them like you more or something. For the next few weeks, she used our names so frequently it was a bit weird. Like every line of a conversation. Eg.
    “hello Ruth how are you”
    “I’m good, you?”
    “fine thanks Ruth. You’re on drive through till today Ruth”
    “ok, who has the sign sheet?”
    “John has it, Ruth”
    Etc

    1. Wendy Darling*

      I actually find that name thing really jarring and kind of offensive! I HATE it when people use my name too much. Where I grew up you only used someone’s name if you were trying to get their attention or needed to differentiate them from someone else like if there’s a big group and you’re like “Wendy come over here!” (unspoken: Peter can stay where he is).

      I think it’s a weird cultural quirk from my hometown, but using my name a lot feels very demanding and blunt. I know that in some circles it’s apparently supposed to be polite and more personal? But it just makes me bristle. Also I associate it with pushy salespeople.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        I feel the same way. I once lived in an apartment complex where the manager did that sort of thing (using your name once or twice per sentence), and it annoyed the hell out of me — I thought she came across like a used-car salesperson. I never use people’s names unless I’m trying to get their attention…hell, I don’t even call my husband by his name (we generally say “dear” or “sweetie” when trying to get each other’s attention).

        Back in high school when I worked in retail, we were required to wear name tags, and it was always jarring when a customer would read my name and call me by it. I was fine with “Miss?” as a way of getting my attention, but not with anyone I didn’t know using my actual name. So now I don’t do that with service people, either; generally I’ll just say, “Excuse me” to get their attention.

      2. Squeeble*

        This is something about the show New Girl that has always stuck out to me and bothered me. They are CONSTANTLY saying each other’s names on that show, and it seems really unusual!

    2. Tris Prior*

      I had a trainer do this during an online training recently and it was SO disconcerting. I think it was to make sure that we were paying attention and not, I dunno, answering emails or doing work or surfing AAM at the same time? It was weird and jarring and, I think, actually interfered with my ability to concentrate…. but it did make me refrain from multitasking, so, mission accomplished? :/

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Only yesterday I was ranting about how jarring this is on tv and in films as nobody talks like this. I guess one person does!

  103. Ann O'Nemity*

    Can a micromanaging manager change their ways?

    One of my direct reports is what I’d call a micromanaging manager. She dominates team meetings and rarely delegates anything substantial. I’ve been coaching her about this for a year and have discussed why delegating is good and micromanaging is bad. She agrees, will make progress, and then will slip back into old habits. It’s like her default is to treat experienced, seasoned employees like interns. Goals are met, the work always get done. But this manager is working 50+ hour weeks while her team works 35, and no one is progressing in their own career development. All that said, she is very kind (in a motherly way), and her team consistently gives her high praise.

    1. Graciosa*

      I think they can, but I doubt this one will make a sustainable change if you don’t get more serious about fixing this. The comments at the end seem like you’re telling yourself that this is not that bad (goals are met, her team likes her).

      The flip side of this is that developing team members is a core job responsibility for managers, and she is failing at it despite a YEAR of coaching.

      At this point, I would put her on a PIP to message very clearly that she cannot backslide on this. You need a different behavior from her permanently. Even when you successfully pass a PIP, they generally note that you can be immediately fired if you backslide.

      And I do think you need to fire her if this doesn’t change permanently (no backsliding). It’s not fair to her direct reports to be missing out on coaching and development that is critical to their growth – or even just the basic respect they are entitled to as professionals!

      If you worry about firing a kind person who is hard working (but still cannot do the job you need done), keep in mind that it is everyone’s best interests. She needs to be in a job for which she is suited, and her current employees deserve a good – or at least competent – manager.

      Good luck.

      1. Camellia*

        On the other hand, maybe her team is very happy to only be working 35 hours, and aren’t interested in pursuing development. Sometimes people are just happy to come in and do their jobs (what there is of it) and not break a sweat.

        1. Graciosa*

          True – but it’s rare for an entire team of “experienced, seasoned employees” to be happy being treated like interns. People who want a clock-in-clock-out job with minimal efforts normally choose other types of work.

          If the company wants a high performing team and discovers, after the manager is gone, that the current situation is truly what the current employees want, I would assume that any competent replacement manager would be evaluating the future of those team members.

    2. Kathenus*

      As Graciosa says, you need to be very clear with her that this is a serious performance issue (whether or not I’d recommend a PIP would depend on how clear this has been in the past) – and be specific on what she needs to achieve. Not just delegating good, micromanaging is bad, but what does that LOOK like in action – such as delegate at least two new tasks/projects to each team member every quarter and document them, rotate running meetings with your team so that they each get a chance to present and lead, let team members each select and achieve two career development opportunities annually, etc. Then follow up with meetings to track progress on the specific goals she was given and track progress. If the feedback is this straightforward and clear, she’ll either improve, or not. As I was once told by someone in HR when working with a challenging employee – manage them up, or manage them out. Good luck.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        I abbreviated it up as “delegation good micromanaging bad” so my post here wouldn’t be as long.

        We’ve had many lengthy conversations about this in much more detail. I call out specific examples when I see them. I’ve sent her articles to read. When I point out specific ways to delegate, such as give X project to Wakeen, she will do it. Like I said, she’ll get better for awhile and then slide back.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      My theory is that micromanagers happen because of their fears.
      Call her out on it. Tell her to stop being afraid of people’s failures and short comings. Explain that it is her job to let go of the work and not do it herself. If she cannot let go of the work, if she lives in fear of people’s mistakes then she cannot be a manager.
      Do some what if scenarios with her. What if Bob forgets to do his weekly report on Friday, what steps will she use to handle it?
      See if we do not have a new plan we cannot let go of old plan. Tell her she needs to build a new plan for each of her old problems. And then she needs to actually use the plans she has built. Tell her that she will be required to report back how these plans are working.

  104. I am Rose*

    F it, y’all! I took a mental health day today. I am so burnt out.

    TLDR: mostly venting but I want to talk to my manager about how my coworker doesn’t do squat.
    —
    Daisy, Lily, and I (Rose) work on team. Daisy has been in the position a year longer than me (I’m 2 years in) and Lily is brand new. We each have our own work and must also work in the community garden (I’m taking a theme and running with it, people!). Our supervisor, Basil, used to be on our team but was recently promoted to the newly created sup position. Basil still works in the community garden sometimes even though he shouldn’t!

    Daisy doesn’t do shit all day and never works in the community garden. She pulls one weed and needs a 2-4 hour break. Daisy is careful to always respond to internal emails, but dutifully ignores client emails/projects.
    Lily is too new to be of any help at the moment and constantly asks me to review and edit her work. Lily and I used to work together on another team for several years and she is excellent! I know once she has a few more months under her belt I won’t feel so overwhelmed. Right now I am doing the work of 3 people (15,000 client locations) and I am so tired.

    I want to talk to Basil next week. What I really want to say is, “Daisy doesn’t do any work, WTF?!” But realistically, “Can we discuss the community garden? I feel like I am doing a significant portion of the work. I know we each have our own work, but I was really hoping Daisy and I would be pulling the weeds equally, as Lily is new. If I don’t pull all the weeds, they just grow out of control.” And that’s what I’ve got so far. It’s not very good.

    Have I talked to Daisy? No. Daisy is in an office 300 miles away. Lily and I are 50 miles apart. We are all about 150 miles away from Basil. When we do go to Daisy’s office (headquarters) she does not hide the fact that she only works 1-2 hours a day.

    Daisy is also very sensitive. I know if I talk to her directly, she will get very upset and defensive.

    Now I’m just rambling. I know people have written into AAM about similar situations, so I’ll look up those too. I know I need to tell Basil that Daisy doesn’t do XYZ. I can’t just cry about it.

    1. Windchime*

      I’ve never understood how people like Daisy can fly under the radar for so long and do only minimal work. Do bosses just not know/care? Why on earth are they OK with paying people a full salary for a couple of hours of work per day?

  105. blueheron*

    I am in talks with a company based in Central/Eastern Europe–they are looking to hire US-based contract workers for a few sales positions. It’s a legit company, is mission-driven and seems great, and I am interested–but I am curious how self-employment taxes work in this case. Does anyone have experience with being a contract employee for an international company while living in the US?

    1. Five after Midnight*

      Disclaimer: no experience in contracting for a international company while in the US, but a CPA with some independent contractor and international issues experience.
      Another Disclaimer: YMMV, and the following is a general discussion and not the accounting advice to your exact circumstances; you may need to hire a CPA to get this right.
      Since you are talking about self-employment (SE) taxes, I will make a few assumptions: a) you are getting paid a sales commission and/or a flat allowance; b) the C/EE company in question dose not have a US presence in the form of a legal entity incorporated/organized in the US; and c) you are acting on your own behalf and do not have a corporation or a partnership organized in the US (i.e. the payments go to you directly and not to a business).
      In such a case, generally speaking, you need to keep track of all your sales job related income and expenses and keep a log of all car mileage. I strongly recommend a separate bank account and a separate credit card to be used strictly and exclusively for this job, even though they will be in your name (and not a business name). At the end of the year, you will complete Schedule C, sole proprietorship, to go along with your form 1040 and show your income and expenses. You will pay income and SE taxes (SS/MC) on the _profits_ (this is why you need to keep track of expenses and mileage, they will reduce your profit and thus taxes). In the first year of this job, you _may_ be able to wait until the year end to make the payment – it depends on your tax situation in the prior and current year – but after that, you will likely need to make quarterly estimated payments (or adjust your or your SO’s withholding from any other job) to avoid interest and penalties at year end.
      There are also deductions and credits available for SE health insurance and retirement contributions related to SE income.
      If you live in a state that taxes earned income, all of the above will largely also apply to the state income taxes.
      I doubt that you will be required to file a tax returns in the country of the origin of the payments – general rule of thumb in most of the world is that you pay taxes in a country if you are either a/resident, or b/nonresident but perform the work _in_ the country; and, here, you are neither.
      If you’d like more details on any of the above, I’d be happy to answer. Any additional advice will depend on your specific circumstances.

  106. Wendy Darling*

    A tiny victory this week: Looking at job ads I spotted a local nonprofit advertising unpaid internships that were flagrantly illegal in my state. As in they went to great lengths to explain how much work the nonprofit needed done and how high-impact the intern’s work would be, but it’s against the law for a company to have an intern do work that benefits the company without being paid.

    I emailed them and said I was very disappointed to see this, linked them to the department of labor website that explains it’s not allowed, and pointed out that it is in clear conflict with their mission (they’re all about workplace equity… not a good look).

    And they pulled the ads down and apologized!

    1. AnonAndOn*

      I don’t like job ads that try so hard to stand out and be funny. I couldn’t take something like that seriously.

    2. WellRed*

      Nope! I hate it when companies try to be all hip. They probably pay poorly, have long hours and think having a ping pong table makes them a great place to work.

    3. fposte*

      Not me. But if a “sugar dating site” is what I imagine it to be, you’re wanting to skew toward a certain kind of person, so maybe it works for them.

  108. passed my test!*

    I need to celebrate a bit.

    I quit my job to go back to school for a 4 month certification program. It’s been a long time since I’ve had any formal education (I couldn’t afford college, and wasn’t willing to end up with student debt. Great logic at the time, bad bad idea in hindsight). It’s an adjustment for sure.

    We had our first unit test this week. I do not test well. I have been studying the material and taking lots of notes in class, but I felt so unprepared. My instructor released a practice test ahead of time, and I knew almost none of the answers. After I took the practice test, I spent hours studying the things I was lost on. All our tests combined make up half of the grade for this class, so it’s a big deal. I went in to take the test and was not at all confident that I would do well, but after all my last minute studying, I was hopeful that I could scrape through with a passing score. The way our tests are set up is that the percentage of correct questions is not your grade, but you use your percentage to calculate how many points you get for your final grade.

    I got a 91%, which translated to the maximum 100 possible points for this test! I am so relieved. I am giving myself a break from studying today as celebration.

    1. Sugar of lead*

      Yay you! Being able to work against your strong suit and do really well isn’t all that common. You’re going to go far.

  109. Maddy*

    Applying for jobs when you are going to be leaving the industry soon?

    I’m currently pursuing classes to get a degree in another field, but in the meantime I’m unemployed and looking for work. I’ve been applying to jobs in my old field, but obviously I don’t intend to stay after I get my degree a year from now. What is the best way to bring this up in interviews? Or do I need to? Alternatively, should instead I be applying to entry level jobs in my new field, even tho I don’t have my degree yet?

    1. JN*

      I don’t see anything wrong with doing either option right now. You have experience in your current field that could be useful to an employer even if you only stay for a year. But you could (and probably should) start looking at those entry level jobs in the field you’re getting your degree in, partly so you’re prepared for the skills and knowledge those employers are looking for in candidates (which can let you know things to focus on this next year before you graduate). And those employers may well be willing to consider a candidate who is pursuing a degree in the field and may be more up to date on new trends and practices in this field than older graduates might be.

      I don’t think you’d necessarily need to bring it up in interviews. No one knows what the future holds for sure.

  110. Emmie*

    My best friend is returning to work after maternity leave. I am making a package for the first day back at work. Her IT department takes one business day to restore access, so she’ll be sitting around all day. What should I give her? Here’s what I have so far:

    – A nice note
    – A gift certificate to her fav place to take the night off of cooking
    – 1 to 2 magazines

    Anything else? :)

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        A fun water bottle is a great idea especially if she’s breastfeeding/pumping; I’m not a mom but I’ve heard that breastfeeding is a dehydrating activity (makes sense) so she’ll want drinking water to be convenient.

    4. Specialk9*

      So kind of you!

      If she likes tea, a teapot. You have no idea what her relationship to caffeine will be, but tea lets her caffeinate or drink medicinal teas for milk supply, etc. I have a pretty teapot that I love.

      Tissues. Most new moms have a tough transition at first, away from their teeny helpless baby. (Unless you’re in a civilized 1-year maternity leave country).

  111. Crylo Ren*

    Asking for a friend…anyone here have any success stories or tips they’d like to share regarding internal interviews, particularly if it’s a “repeat” interview (i.e. candidate has applied before but was rejected)?
    Does it generally reflect badly with your team if everyone knows you were rejected multiple times?

    My friend has applied for and interviewed for a particular position twice before, but both times the positions ended up going to external candidates. When he asked for feedback the main concern was that this position would be too high of a level-jump for him. However, in the time since he last interviewed, the company restructured and he received a half-step promotion (same general role but now a “senior” level), so the gap between his current role and the position he’s interviewing for is not so large. He’s gained new skills and regularly receives good feedback from his supervisors/coworkers, so he has reason to believe that the third time may be the charm, but I worry that if he’s rejected again it will affect how his coworkers/managers perceive him and negatively impact his existing job.

    1. Graciosa*

      This happens all the time at my large employer. There are frequently multiple internal candidates for certain positions, and no more than one of them could get it (best case). Applying again is not a problem. I know one person who applied for a specific role 3 times before getting it.

      Hiring managers are looking for the best possible candidate for each slot, and therefore know that sometimes whether you get a role depends on the competition. I have frequently heard “It’s a shame we don’t have another opening yet – I would love to get to hire Chris as well!” I have never heard anything negative implied just because a candidate has applied for a role multiple times in the absence of some other factor.

  112. Amber Rose*

    I spent a loooong time revising and updating my resume, and writing a cover letter for a job I’ll never get. And that’s just depressing.

    I feel conflicted. On the one hand, the meaningless nature of my job is pretty crushing. On the other hand, I get paid pretty well, like my coworkers, enjoy the times I actually do get to do something useful…

    I will have been here for 3 years in February, which is when I’ll probably start putting honest effort into a job search. I think 3 years is a pretty solid amount of time and it’s not unreasonable to look for new adventures even if I am getting by OK here. The only problem is, I still haven’t figured out what I want to do with my life. I don’t even know if I like what I do, really. It’s pretty tiresome. *sigh* I’m turning 30 soon, why do I feel like I accidentally missed the part where I was supposed to become an adult.

    1. JN*

      Would there be volunteer options you could explore over the next 5 months? The holidays are coming up and organizations always seem to need help at this time of year, so you’d both be able to do something meaningful and see if it’s something you might want to do more of going forward, either as a new career or as something that would give you what you need mentally/emotionally while staying in your current job.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I don’t really have the emotional bandwidth or time, frankly, since I have things that I’m a part of, like D&D groups and martial arts and stuff. I went to those things to try and give me what I need, but although I enjoy them, I still spend 90% of my time in a place I don’t really want to be, and its hard.

    2. Specialk9*

      Argh, that is a really tough spot to be in. Hugs over the internet!

      I’m not clear if you are upset about all the work for a job you didn’t get, or that you think you’ll never get any job.

      My recruiter/HR friends all say that getting a job you want is just a numbers game. You apply to interesting jobs but don’t get too wrapped up in any of them until you hear back (and even then). Expect to apply to 100 jobs, to get in the right frame of mind. It helps not to get crushed.

      As to if you’re ever going to find A job, yup, your comments show you to be smart and have a good head on your shoulders. So the goal is to find a company with a mission that makes the inevitable amount of day to day drudgery of every job worth it, and a good ratio of exciting work to that drudgery. It’s doable.

      For me, I need to believe in the overarching mission. How is my work helping people. Without that I couldn’t be happy. But I could work in a lot of fields, since lots of things help people in meaningful ways.

      Lastly, this is weird, but how are you with saving money? I read a lot of personal finance blogs, and people can go down quirky and unconventional paths if they have good savings and a simple way of life. I like Mr Money Mustache, Go Curry Cracker, Simple Dollar, and basically any FIRE (Financially Independent, Retire Early) blogger.

      1. Specialk9*

        Also, unless life changes, for sure you will never be happy at this job.

        (Life changes that in the short term let one be happy in an easy but unfulfilling job include having a kid, going back to school part time, getting sick or having sick family members – anything that drains energy or changes your priorities, so that easy and steady work is a godsend rather than a soul drain.)

        But not a reason not to keep looking. You can do it!

  113. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    My manager has suggested that I set a personal development goal for myself this year. I’ve managed several large projects over the years, but I don’t have any actual Project Management training. I was thinking about taking a free online course, not for certification, but just to get some skills and gain awareness of some tools that might help me manage my projects better as well as work more effectively with our actual Project Manager (who’s totally incompetent, but that’s a whole other story). I was thinking about the course offered by Alison (dot com). Has anyone taken it before, or have other suggestions?

    1. JN*

      American Management Association offers some free webinars (and other paid online webinars/classes, so that might be something to look into. Other things might come up with an internet search for that type of training.

  114. Star*

    I interviewed for an internal promotion (Job A) in the same department today, and it went well. But my head of department called me into her office earlier and said that someone in my direct team had handed in her notice, and she was thinking of retooling the position so it was the same level as the promotion I had applied for, and would I be interested in taking this instead (Job B). I have time to think it over, of course.

    I think I would like to do this, as I like the team I work with and the products I work on – and whilst I have a high likelihood of getting Job A, it’s not a guarantee. I’d also have a lot of input into what Job B looks like, since it doesn’t technically exist yet. So my question is, what sort of things should I make sure to ask about before accepting Job B, and therefore officially pulling out of the running for Job A? I’ve never been in the this situation, so any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Pineapple Incident*

      So late to the party, sorry! I think you should ask your department head what the reporting structure would be like, and ask what the duties would entail- do you think Job B would be enough room to grow, give you a chance to develop new skills and exercise autonomy? Is Job A in an area/subspecialty that would give you experience you want for the future? etc.- may have to do some soul-searching to figure out what you really want!

      Good luck!

  115. Edgar Allan Bro*

    I’m working at an entry level job where many people assume I’m not entry level because I’m the only person at my salary level to have an office. This is actually mostly for convenience reasons, I work with thousands and thousands of files so its really more accurate the files have an office that I get to use too, but it’s fooled a lot of the interns into thinking I’m much more important than I am, and one of them in particular will spend hours helping me with scanning and sorting and filing, which is very useful to me, I feel a bad that I can’t actually help her get a job here long term because I have no sway or connections with the people who make those decisions and I can’t imagine she’s learning anything that useful from helping me alphabetize, so the fact she’s doing the exact same job I am, except as an unpaid intern sure makes me feel a lil bit icky.

    1. LAI*

      Actually, I’d assume that she’s learning all kinds of useful things from you, like how to behave in a professional work environment, what a good work ethic looks like, how to be a considerate co-worker, etc.

      1. Edgar Allan Bro*

        That is a nice thought! I think in this case it’s unlikely because all the interns are grad students and some of them are six and ten years older than me, and just trying to break into a tough industry. But I think a lot of my discomfort comes from the fact I think unpaid internships are ethically questionable and I personally refused to do them (although that was less of a moral stance and more the fact I couldn’t afford to work and not get paid for it), and I know I won’t be able to help any of them get a job here because the only job that is entry level in my department is mine. But I have been trying to at least explain how my job works as I give them stuff to do, and maybe one day one of them will be able to figure out a tough situation because they know how to quickly file accounts payable vs payroll!

        1. fposte*

          It sounds like they’re fully grown adults who can reasonably assess the situation, then; I wouldn’t feel guilty if I were you.

  116. katamia*

    So I really hate my undergrad alma mater. I don’t think the “education” I got there was good quality. I found the standards extremely lacking. (And from what I’ve heard from friends who have stayed in the area, it’s worse now than it was when I went.) I was very unhappy there, both academically and because I didn’t fit in well with the culture.

    But somehow it has a great reputation, especially in the area I’m just about to start grad school in. When I tell people where I went, they say, “Oh, what a great school!” and similar things. At this point, I can’t find anything nice to say about it, but the conversation doesn’t really work if I don’t say anything at all. Any script suggestions for moving the conversation past this without my actually having to agree with them about how good my undergrad institution supposedly is?

    1. Yorick*

      Maybe ask them about where they went, or ask questions about their experience there if you already know. The good thing is you’ll be able to move into talking about your new school soon.

    2. Caledonia*

      Did you make any friends, was the campus nice, library…something?

      So you could say “yes it’s a lovely campus/I met a friend there/I had a job in the canteen etc” something small and anecdotal and then switch it round to them and get them to talk about their experiences.

    3. FormerOP*

      Memorize a phrase that you can use to agree with the person in a non-committal way and then move on, e.g. “Yes, the University of Dorne has a great diving team” or “Yes, the Dornish Wine course I took there is something that is useful every time I have friends over for wine and cheese night.” The key really is to memorize something agreeable to say so that you don’t leave anyone hanging. As much as this might feel unfair, if you disagree with well-meaning folks about your alma mater, it is going to come off as churlish and unkind. Keep in mind that not everyone has the chance to go to college, especially a four year institution that does well in those college rankings.

    4. Essie*

      Look up “paltering”. This is a situation in which using it is completely ethical, IMO. You say something somewhat related that sounds like you’re in agreement, but technically you don’t lie. For example:

      I wouldn’t be where I am today if not for Crappy U! (because you would have a degree from a different school)
      That place really changed my life! (you’re not saying it changed it for the better)

    5. LAI*

      I don’t see why you have to say anything. If I don’t want to agree with or otherwise respond to something a person has said, I’ll just sort of make a non-committal hum sound that acknowledges that I heard them, and then change the subject.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      That sounds like where I went.
      Just say, “It has a really pretty campus.” And then change to something else.

  117. Cruciatus*

    I have to write a short bio about myself that my new department is going to send out in a newsletter (with other stuff, not just about me). The usual seem to be things like “Cruciatus has previously worked at X and Y and has a degree in This ‘N’ That from So and So University. Her duties at department are blah blah blah.” I want to add a little humor to it somehow… Is it better to keep it formal up top and then maybe add a line at the end that’s a little less serious? I’ve never had to do this before! And we’re talking maybe 4 or 5 sentences here but it feels like a million!

    2. Graciosa*

      I would be sensitive to your company’s culture (and if you’re not sure, ask a boss, mentor, or trusted colleague). I have worked at places where this would be just fine, and worked at places where it would clearly signal something negative (lack of insight into the culture reading to insiders as “immaturity” or “lack of professionalism”).

      Don’t misunderstand – I prefer to work with people who have a sense of humor – but you need to know your workplace.

  118. Sugar of lead*

    My new job is working out great. It’s an overworked, understaffed operation, so I a) have a lot of leverage since I work the most hours and am the most reliable person in my position and b) feel right at home. I’m even working with one of the managers on streamlining certain processes so they’ll go faster, and I’m making great tips. Who’s low-functioning now?

    The only thing I would change is to have a regular schedule, or at least regular days off so I could volunteer. My boss said she’d look into it and I haven’t heard back. I’m giving her another week and then I’m just going to pick two days and say I’m unavailable.

    1. JN*

      Unless you have to have those two specific days off with no alternatives possible, would it come across as more helpful to your manager to frame it as “We need to discuss which two days I will have off each week. I love my work her and want to make sure that I don’t burn out. What two days will work best for the operation to maximize workflow and minimize any issues?”

  119. Odyssea*

    Any thoughts on dealing with snarky subordinates who you can’t discipline?

    Due to hurricane related flooding, I am “hosting” part-time staff from another location. I am supervising them as they work in my location, but I do not have any power over them regarding scheduling, time approval, etc. That is still be handled by someone from their department who is a third location. In addition, I was told by my supervisor that I basically have to baby them because of what happened and have to favor them over my employees. (Just to note, no one was at the location when it flooded, and these were part-timers. The full time staff lost everything in their offices, but have had much better attitudes. They are housed elsewhere for now).

    The problem I am having is with some of their attitudes. Nothing outright rude, but snarky comments and tone of voice, especially when dealing with my part timers (who outrank half of their staff, but not the other). A lot of this deals with the fact that they are doing things incorrectly (according to our system standards, not just personal preference) and having attitude when they are corrected by one of my staff/myself. It’s a little more blatant to my staff than to me, but it’s still there.

    I am being calm and level-headed in my interactions with them, but I don’t have the ability to tell them to knock it off (I am certain some of them would go straight to my and their supervisors if I did, even in the most professional manner). As of now, it looks like they will be here for almost a year, and the thought of dealing with them that long makes me sick to my stomach. It’s only been three weeks and I’m so stressed I can’t sleep.

    Any thoughts on ways of dealing with this? Luckily, it’s only a couple of them, but it is still very stressful for me and my staff.

    1. Colette*

      Since you don’t have standing to deal with it yourself, talk with their supervisors, explain the problem, and come up with a solution together.

  120. Shayland*

    I have been feeling really run down the past three days. I had my EEG today and I think I’m just going to take a nap. I have been working (in some form or another, school, dogs, personal projects) for almost a month straight and I think this is my body’s way of saying “WTF??!?! STOP STOP STOP”

    I still want to get to clean the apartment today, and train with Storm, and and and. But breath. One thing at a time. One day at a time. I’d never thought I’ve have this problem of work too much too overwhelmingly, being unable to stop and being overwhelmed with negative self talk when I do.

    Any advice? Internet hugs? There’s a lot going on in my life, including three separate issues involving lawyers. And there’s just no action I can take to make those problems go away. I just have to wait.

    1. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Here’s an internet hug: ({ }). Take some time for you, and do some healing, soothing things to get through it all. Nice long walk, bubble bath, stupid TV, whatever you can to get your mind off of things and relax.

    3. DDJ*

      Internet hugs for sure! Here are some! [Imagine they’re really good ones too, because my hugs are pretty great.]

      Be kind to yourself. If you had a friend who was going through what you were going through, what kinds of thoughts would you have about it? Kind ones, I’m sure. Commiserating. Show yourself that same kindness!

  121. This can't be normal*

    I constantly feel like I’m on the verge of being fired, but my boss is being very passive aggressive about it. Our department is being laid off at the end of the year so it will soon be irrelevant, but I’d like to know if this is normal or if it’s as annoying as I think it is.

    Lately my boss has been finding issues with literally everything I do. I know my work has been slipping a little since we got notice of the layoffs, but definitely not as bad as she acts like it is. My boss is known to be extremely OCD and impossible to work with, so I know it’s not just me.

    The problem is, she hasn’t actually said anything to me about it. It’s always either a passive aggressive email or she goes straight to HR. For example, she sent me an email asking if I had finished Project A that is due at the end of the month, and asked me to email it to her within the hour. I was busy working on Project B and not at my desk, so I didn’t see the email. Two hours later, she had forwarded it to HR with the subject line “please check on this” and HR emailed me asking for an update on why I hadn’t emailed back yet. My boss sits literally five feet away from me and we had multiple conversations in this time, so she could have brought it up. She also saw that I wasn’t at my desk. A version of this is happening multiple times a day!

    Please tell me this is as weird/annoying as I think it is?! I’m to the point where I want to just walk out!

    1. Argh!*

      Wow your supervisor is a jerk.

      Mine is too. And telling her how I’d prefer to be treated hasn’t been working. Some people just can’t change, but if you don’t try you’ll never know.

      You could just straight-up ask, “Why didn’t you call me or ask me in person? When something is urgent, that’s the best way to reach me.” Passive-aggressive types like to think that they’re “nice” but really they wind up being anything but nice. They just don’t want to deal with anything unpleasant to spare their own feelings. They don’t care about ours.

    2. JN*

      Yes, it sounds annoying. Seems like your boss feels out of control at the larger situation and is trying to make themselves feel better by nitpicking on those whom they can control.

      If HR sent me that kind of message, I might reply back with the explanation that I was working on Project B during xx time and wasn’t reachable by email when boss emailed about Project A but that I responded as soon as I could once I was back at my desk (and provide documentation). Since you’re going to be laid off before too long anyway, you might not have much to lose by trying to be direct with the boss and asking what she wants you to work on as top priority for the week (in email if possible) so that you’d have the documentation to send to HR if/when she contacts them again to make it seem like you’re not doing your job.

    3. LCL*

      That’s not what HR is for. Is this a very small employer? I can’t imagine our HR doing anything like this.

    4. Anono-me*

      Laid off people usually get benefits.
      Fired for cause people usually don’t get benefits.

      On purpose or not, please document everything just in case.

      Also please make sure everything irreplaceable is out or your office.

      Good luck.

    5. Someone else*

      Wait, does does boss have actual OCD or are you using that colloquially to describe behaviours you find objectionable? Outside of your frustration with the situation you described, doing the latter is fairly offensive. I know we try not to word-police around here, but I thought you’d want to know since I’m assuming your intention was not to offend.

  122. earlgreyhot*

    I have a new co-worker who sits in the cube behind me. We have a very quiet office, and I startle easily, so it’s been a problem when he stands up, peers over my cube behind me (so I can’t see him), and says my name suddenly. It’s like someone I can’t see, who I didn’t know was there, is suddenly speaking in my ear. I’ve asked before to walk around to my cube rather than doing that, but I think he thinks it’s a joke or something, because he laughs it off.

    He did this this morning, and I decided to finally be stern: “It startles me, so please walk around to my cube. No worries, but I’d appreciate it.” I figured that must have settled it.

    Not an hour later, I jumped out of my skin as he did it again! I had to be even more stern: “Please don’t do that! It startles me!”

    He chuckled and said “I guess I’ll walk around then.” He walked to my desk, and then said, “I guess I can ask Lucy actually.” *To Lucy* “I keep startling her, haha.”

    How do I respond to this without getting labeled the sensitive weirdo or mean person?

      1. ProSquirtGun*

        +1000000

        I think you should use a squirt gun. And have someone video it. And share it here.

        Actually on second thought, that’s probably my boredom talking.

    4. JN*

      Could you put a small mirror on your desk where you can see it (and what’s in it)? Or a picture frame with very reflective glass? Might give you a chance to see him pop up before he has a chance to speak and startle you. If not, you might have to escalate this up to your boss and ask if there’s a way that he can be reminded that how he’s behaving isn’t appropriate since you’ve asked him to stop and he keeps doing it.

      1. Five after Midnight*

        ^ This. I absolutely HATE having things happen behind my, literal, back. Some cubes are unfortunately organized/positioned in such a way that people can sneak up on you or watch what you’re doing without you noticing. When I found myself in such arrangement, I would place a small rectangular blind spot mirror (from a car parts store) right on top of my monitor – problem solved: my peripheral vision would always alert me to things going on behind me. I got some good-natured ribbing over it at the beginning but people got bored with it after a while.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I am not clear why you are worried about this person thinking you are weird or mean. He is acting like a 2 year old and he needs to stop. You told him to stop several times. I think if he tells you that you are mean or whatever, tell him no you are normal. Adults say something once and usually do not have to keep repeating the same message.

  123. AnotherAlison*

    I think I pissed off my mother with a comment about my sister’s job the other day. My sister got a BS in biology and continued working as a medical office admin and immediately started school to get a teaching degree. Got, that, subbed for ~12 months, then quit working and went to nursing school full time. Did that for 2 years and just started working for an insurance company (not as a nurse).

    We were talking about careers, re: my college-age son, and my mother said sometimes it takes a while to find what you like, but look at my sister. . .she “looovvvess” her new job. I scoffed and said, “Well, of course she does. She’s only been there a couple weeks. It’s called the honeymoon period.” She is literally in training and has to close “X” cases a day in the future but does not have to meet any of those requirements for 6 months. No pressure. . .yes, I would love that, too, but it’s not realistic longer term.

    Anyway, my question is if it’s realistic to say you “love” your job after a month? I have fallen into that trap myself, and found myself hating the same job 6 months (or 3 years) later. In that first month, you’re just so happy you aren’t at the Other Job You Hated, and everyone is extra nice to you, and you don’t have the stress because the newbie mistakes are forgiven, but maybe I’m wrong. To me, though, the real test is if you have gone through a few years, you’ve had bad times, and you can still say overall you love it.

    1. Amtelope*

      Why rain on your sister’s parade, though? Maybe her job will turn out worse than she thinks now. Maybe it won’t. But she loves it right now, and that’s true even if she doesn’t end up loving it permanently. I’m not sure why you reacted to that so negatively.

      1. Specialk9*

        What you were doing was gossiping behind your sister’s back, and demonstrating lack of respect for her, to both get mother and her nephew. That would piss me off too.

        Is there some sibling rivalry going on? Maybe she was the golden one growing up and you revel in the turning of the tables?

        Not a good look for you.

    2. Overeducated*

      I don’t actually have a very long full time work history in any one place (years of academic calendar, part time, and grant funded positions), but I’ve definitely had a pretty accurate read on all of my jobs within a month. My overall feeling of “good,” “bad,” “mixed,” “boring,” “amazing,” etc. never really changed even though the details and responsibilities did. In one case I felt like I’d grown out of it by the end of my third six-month term, but I loved it for my first 2.5, and the issue at that point was that the duties weren’t changing and I needed more of a challenge, not that the job or the field was wrong for me.

      So I don’t think it takes a few years. On the other hand, I think when you’re on your third career in four years, maybe it’s a little early to say “this is it!” Even I still feel like I’m finding my way!

    3. Beancounter in Texas*

      At my current job, I was temping and offered the job after a month. I turned them down, because the pay wasn’t where I had been at before and my supervisor was more reactive than proactive. Two months into the job, I loved it and asked them if the job offer was still on the table.

      I can’t speak to the “few years” test, because the only other job I loved changed dramatically after about 18 months because my boss sold the business (and then it turned into hell on earth). I think love for a job fluctuates with time, as I feel differently about my work as time passes in the jobs I’ve held for years.

    4. TotesMaGoats*

      I was saying I loved my new (current) job after a few weeks. I could tell right away that the atmosphere was completely different (healthy) and I was with a group of people working towards a common goal and doing so with integrity. Even though we’ve just announced furloughs due to a massive budget gap, I’m still thrilled to go to work every day. Like stupidly happy. I have a boss that I respect and can learn from. I have colleagues that make me laugh. I’ve got a fantastic team. I’ve gotten to my face feedback along the lines of “we didn’t think we’d ever be able to replace PreviousPerson, but we did with you.”

  124. Beancounter in Texas*

    My supervisor (over a small team of 8) is friendly with a team member, but it is understandable, in that they have a few things in common. Plus, their desks face each other, so they can communicate very easily. This teammate is also friendly outside of work, asking to friend all of us on Facebook, inviting all of us to her house-warming, her husband’s birthday party and organizing happy hours for all of us that lead to karaoke bars. (I went to one happy hour, but declined the karaoke bar.)

    On Monday, however, I overhead something that led me to wonder my supervisor and my coworker are getting to be more friendly outside of work. I don’t recall the exact words, but it sounded like the two of them did something by themselves (or with their families together). From what I see, at best, my supervisor is being unprofessional by blurring the employer/friend line and at worst, she’s favoring this coworker and further developments could affect the department.

    So I ask here: is this a red flag about which I should be concerned? Or am I extrapolating too much?

    1. fposte*

      I think friendship with a single member of the team is more a no-no because of what *could* happen, not because it always does; that’s why I would warn your supervisor more than I’d warn you. Doing something together outside of work isn’t automatically favoring this co-worker at work.

      So I wouldn’t consider this a red flag on its own; if problems seem to arise with disparate treatment, that’s when I’d be concerned.

  125. Nox*

    I wear a few hats at my employer, this week I’m Ms. Recruiter. I’m having issues trying to recruit for a bilingual Spanish speaker. The pay is low, the schedule sucks so they hang up on me or curse me out and even when I book them for an interview they no show. Naturally, I’m under pressure to get someone to fill the role.

    I’m just kind of at a loss here. I have the data to support that the salary is too low and that’s my primary reason why I’m getting no viable applicants. No one listens. Is this normal to experience as a recruiter?

    1. Murphy*

      I think it’s normal anytime you’re in a position where you’re qualified to make recommendations, but you aren’t the decision maker. You can’t make people listen, even if you know you’re right!

  126. Happy Coffee Day*

    Is this normal?

    My supervisor has recently started posting on the wall (for management to discuss 3x per week) our department’s overtime hours worked broken down by person. We are all exempt and overtime varies from 5-10 hours per week (for the most efficient of us) to 10-20 hours per week (for those less efficient or who believe overtime will get them promoted). We all have very similar workloads (information that is also posted on the public board).

    We have always been asked to submit our overtime hours worked in the past (no big deal), but they’ve never been posted publicly till now. In addition, there will now be a super exciting monthly prize drawing – more overtime worked, more entries earned.

    Instead of focusing on productivity, I feel this is an attempt to push more OT. For me this would translate into taking on more projects because I’m more efficient. Gee, hope I win a prize.

    The butt-in-seat mentality here has always bothered me, but this all leaves me feeling infantilized and insulted, not to mention unappreciated for consistently being a top performer.

    Is any of this normal?

    2. Graciosa*

      No.

      Not only is it not normal, it is not good management.

      I actually pay attention to this for my exempt employees – but not to the hour, not publicly, and in pretty much the opposite way. If someone is working long hours, it’s a sign that something is wrong that I, as a manager, need to address.

      My responses vary (training for efficiency, reallocating work among team members, saying “no” to some requests) but none of them are directed at increasing overtime.

      1. OP*

        Thank you!

        We had a meeting a couple weeks ago discussing the new tracking and prize system, where it was stressed multiple times by the bosses, “Don’t think of this as a bad thing! This is really good for you because staffing needs will be more immediately identified and addressed!”

        One of my coworkers (same level as me) put in her notice this week. An email was immediately sent notifying us that her position will not be refilled.

          1. OP*

            Exactly! This IS the way it was previously done. We submitted OT hours to the boss, she plugged everything into her master spreadsheet, then sent an update to management. I just feel so ticked off everytime I walk by that board now. Ugh.

    4. LCL*

      We post ours down to the quarter hour but we are non exempt. We post them because we are supposed to make callouts in order of employee with least number of hours. We don’t encourage people to work more, and we certainly don’t discuss it 3X per week!

      1. OP*

        See – now that makes sense! There are non-exempt employees at our location as well, but their OT is not posted publicly.

    6. Ann O.*

      I feel like I’m missing something… you guys don’t get paid for overtime, right? I’m not mixing up terms. So why is it the norm for people to routinely give free labor to the company or acceptable for the company to implicitly encourage you to give them more free labor?

  127. Anonish*

    I started wearing the rainbow Pride band on my Apple Watch this week and I’ve only had one weirdly aggressive reaction (“Why are you wearing that? Do you know what it MEANS?”) to it. I’m totally open at work about being queer/bi, but I’m also a ciswoman married to a cisman which makes it a little challenging for some people to understand. I like that I can let my queer flag fly, so to speak, at my job, since sometimes I do feel like “the only gay in the village” here.

    1. Frozen Ginger*

      Good for you! I hope your response to that one person was “YEP” and then leaning in really close. But that’s probably not work-place appropriate. Oh well. Cheers!

    2. Snark*

      My wife has a pride button on her purse and has gotten the occasional jerky comment about it. My wife was out with our kid and an older woman demanded to know if her husband was okay with her displaying that symbol. Her response was that not only was her husband fine with it, her girlfriend was too. HEYOOOOOO

    3. Anon for Shame*

      Good for you. I don’t know if I would wear a rainbow flag at work (if I worked in an office) because that’s not my way. But I have mentioned activities with my same sex girlfriend to select co-workers.

      OTOH I am considering buying some queer pins of some sort so perhaps wear out casually. So perhaps I’m getting there.

      I love, love, love that apparently someone was concerned that you were just a rainbow fan unaware that it was the gay pride flag. I hope their world was rocked that someone who seemed so “normal” to them could be a happy and out queer.

      1. Anon for Shame*

        Oops! The username “Anon for Shame” is left over from a post several week ago – not for this topic!

        1. zora*

          “I love, love, love that apparently someone was concerned that you were just a rainbow fan unaware that it was the gay pride flag. ”

          This is the best thing I’ve heard all day. oh noes, the poor unsuspecting rainbow fans!!! ;o)

      2. Anonish*

        The funny thing is that this particular coworker is a notorious mansplainer and when I mentioned it to another coworker, her immediate reaction was, “Oh, did he want to give you a lecture on the history and significance of rainbows?”

    5. Purple snowdrop*

      I’m straight but used to wear a rainbow lanyard at work that I got as an associate member of the LGBT staff network. No one ever said a thing. I’m very boringly straight fwiw

    7. Specialk9*

      Great! It can be its own form of erasing to be bi, in an apparently hetero relationship. (It’s an utter bizarre thing, because I truly think the bell curve of the population will be in the bi region if we ever get to true cultural openness.)

      The rainbow band may or may not be noticed by co-workers, and they may or may not have picked up on your out signals. But it means something important to you. I think it’s great.

  128. stitchinthyme*

    Anyone else out there hate their spouse’s job? Mine is a sysadmin, which means he has to be on call every now and then — it changes depending on how many people are in the rotation, but right now it’s something like one week as primary and one week as secondary every 8 weeks or so. He doesn’t get after-hours calls hugely often right now (though he has in the past), but more than once we’ve had to pass on or cancel things we wanted to do on weekends or evenings because he’s on call and can’t be away from a computer for that long…or sometimes he’ll get after-hours calls when he’s not actually on call. (At least he doesn’t have any repercussions if he’s unreachable when he’s not on call.)

    But he likes his job (mostly; he’s not crazy about the on-call, either, but likes the job enough to put up with it) and doesn’t want to leave, so I pretty much just put up with it. I do try not to give him too much crap about it, as he’s well aware of how I feel and raging at him doesn’t do either of us any good, but that will often leave me with no outlet for my anger. So I seethe, it blows over until the next time, repeat.

    Not looking for advice here really, just venting; the situation is what it is, and there are only three options: he leaves his job, I suck it up and deal, or I leave him. Since he’s not willing to do #1 and I’m not willing to do #3, that leaves dealing with it as best I can. It’s not a problem most of the time, but when it is, I do get pretty annoyed.

    1. Frozen Ginger*

      It sucks but compromise s the only way. I don’t think #3 sounds like a reasonable reaction. Ya just gotta take it in stride: this is his job, he’s agreed to work like that, that’s how it’s gonna be.

      Personal example, my partner is in the military and I’m going to see him next weekend. We’ve had this planned since August, and he got the approval for the weekend off then too. But it looks like they might call him in for training anyway. It sucks, but there’s not much that can be done about it. Only option is to roll with the punches and make the most of the uninterrupted time you do have.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Yup, exactly what I’m doing. And he does try to do whatever he can to mitigate things, like if there’s something we REALLY want to do while he’s on call, or something we planned before he knew he was going to be on call, he can usually get someone to cover for him. So it’s not like it’s a totally rigid situation.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m not crazy about my SO’s job. I know he loves the challenge, but the travel schedule sucks. And while he thinks he only works like 50ish hours a week, the reality of it is far more given that his phone is always going off and he checks and responds to emails constantly. I went the third route and told him we could get back together with certain stipulations. Until those are met…

    3. rageismycaffeine*

      I hate my husband’s job. They’ve taken advantage of him for many years. He does the work of three people and barely gets paid the salary of one. It’s a state university, so this isn’t really that unusual, but it makes me absolutely insane.

    4. A Good Jess*

      Is there a way you can turn this around in your mind and schedule something that you look forward to during his on-call times? Maybe something you really like but that he isn’t into?

      For example, my husband doesn’t like sushi but I do. There was a period where he had to do a week-long business trip each month, so I started having a Sushi Night while he was gone. (Sometimes I had two in the same week!) Or a girls’ night or a massage appointment or time for me to work on a personal project.

      I tried to turn these into opportunities to do something for myself. The nice thing is that your husband’s on-call weeks are scheduled, so you’ll be able to set them up. Also, just because *he* has to pass on some event doesn’t mean *you* have to pass as well! I understand it may be your preference to have him with you, but maybe you can try going on your own sometimes?

    5. Not So NewReader*

      My husband worked 12 plus hours a day got paid for 8 and loved his job.
      If I never, ever hear the name of that company again, it will be a day too soon. grrrr.

      My best advice is to develop your life in new ways. Take up a new hobby, work on a degree or certifications, get a pup, whatever you think is a good idea. Fill up your time.

    6. Specialk9*

      Military deployments… and his job entailed crawling into a jet fuel soaked metal box (supposedly with PPE, but they couldn’t maneuver, so if no officers around without PPE) for which the SOP for fainting would be to break a leg to get you out.

      Yeah, that was enjoyable.

    7. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      In our marriage, *I* am the one on call. And I have been on call for about 80% of the last 20 years.
      From my perspective, there are more than just the 3 options.
      There are ways he could make things easier on you. My philosophy is to just live my life normally as much as possible.
      Taking a laptop and wifi hotspot with you and go places anyway.
      We do a lot of double dates – if I have to leave, he can stay and enjoy time with friends and get a ride home. But in nearly 20 years of on call, that’s only happened twice.
      Sometimes we take two cars to family gatherings.
      I do whatever I can to make it easier on him when I need to leave (and my on call generally has to be done on site, so I am usually leaving for hours at a time when I’m needed.)
      But there are things you can do, too. Remind yourself that it’s not a personal insult when a problem happens at work. Raging and seething seems a bit of a strong response. Maybe explore why getting calls is such a powerful trigger for you. Remind yourself that it is only for a short period. (My husband would probably LOVE it if I only did on call 1 out of every 8 weeks!) Savor the times when he’s not on call.
      Best case scenario, he learns to better live life while on call AND you learn to better deal with it and be supportive. Maybe that’s scenario 1.5!

  129. Murphy*

    My boss gave me a heads up that some of my work is possibly getting “redistributed”. (Not a reflection on my performance, and my boss isn’t the one initiating it.) I’m not an administrative assistant, but there are two faculty committees relevant to my area that I provide administrative support for. I help put together the agenda, and schedule meetings, take notes, etc. My boss said I’m “too valuable” to be making lunch orders for meetings, but I don’t do that part. I pass that along to my unit’s administrative assistant. (That’s how it was done before I got here, so I just let them know what I need and they take care of it.)

    I don’t really want this work taken away. a) I’m not always busy, so getting work taken away without something to replace it isn’t great b) The faculty on these committees generally make me feel appreciated, whereas the main aspects of my job are rather thankless c) We just promoted our last administrative assistant (who is great) by creating a position for her. My boss didn’t know who would be taking over those duties, but she makes the most sense. This is somewhat irrelevant I guess, but it bothers me that they created a position for her, but they need my work to fill her days.

    I told my boss some of this, and he kind of dismissed it in a “this is out of my hands” sort of way. Is there anything that I can do?

    1. k.k*

      It doesn’t sound like there’s anything you can do about those tasks being given to someone else, but you may be able to fix your point a)not having something to replace it. Say to your boss “Now that those tasks are off my plate I have some time freed up. Are there other projects I can help with?” Keep it positive by framing it that you’ve been given this wonderful extra time, instead of that something was taken from you. It would be helpful if you can come up with and idea or two of what new tasks you’d like to do. It’s much easier for your boss to just say yes to something than to give them the task of coming up with ideas.

    2. Temperance*

      For what it’s worth, this sounds like such a good problem to have. I regularly see letters from people trying to take on more challenging tasks and who are pigenholed as admins because skilled admins are hard to find.

  130. kittymommy*

    Apologies as this isn’t work related, but finally got a call from FEMA about my hurricane damage. It looks promising and I’m supposed to have the damage fixed beginning of next week. Hopefully next Friday evening I’ll be catching up on AAM in my house. Finally!!

  131. Rachel O.*

    I am in the final rounds of one of my interviews (Job A) but in the past week, a few other opportunities have opened up that might be more suitable and doesn’t require a relocation. I’ve been working REALLY hard in trying to speed up those conversations but will only have my first interviews with two (Job B and C with two additional ones pending) next Monday.

    I believe Job A will take another two weeks to deliberate as they might make some adjustments to the position but any advice on how I can speed up Job B, C, D and E? I plan to inform B and C on Monday that I am in the final rounds for Job A to hopefully add more urgency to it. But for Job D and E who have not responded with a first interview, is it appropriate to follow up my original application mentioning that too? Anything else I can do?

    I’ve just been monitoring openings the past year and have had trouble finding relevant opportunities. And then BAM, they all happened within days of each other in the past two weeks so I’ve been scrambling. Also afraid that if I miss this boat I’ll be stuck for a very long time.

  132. Dreaming*

    As a result of reading another thread or two on AaM, I now think I may have ADD (along with some online diagnosis). It feels pretty freeing, if I’m honest (and explains a lot).
    I’m a graduate and would love to change careers (now that I realise this one is never going to fit no matter how hard I try). I would love to hear what careers you have if you have ADD/ADHD (and especially if you also have a college degree). Thanks in advance

    1. Overeducated*

      My sibling has ADHD and is very successful in fundraising and campaign organizing. It is very active, varied work but it also helps that my sibling is charming and persuasive!

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      I’m a college professor in STEM. I’ve found treating the ADHD with medication to be extremely effective for me, though I know that’s not for everyone. I do love that I have a lot of different tasks throughout the day. Teaching in general keeps you on your toes, though if you struggle with organization it might not be for you.

    3. Jiggs*

      I have a friend who has ADD and is also a graphic designer. She seems to like it! She’s doing some art classes right now to develop her skills and the short exercises are really soothing for her.

    4. Traveling Teacher*

      Hey, I self-diagnosed with ADD, which led me (after a couple of years, hello procrastination!) to finally see a psychologist. After several sessions, she told me that I primarily suffer from anxiety. That was a revelation to me, as I didn’t see myself as “anxious” but I was/still sometimes am, task-avoidant to an extreme when the task becomes stressful (either because it is a stressful task or because I’ve built it up to be stressful in my mind…). We’re still sifting through a lot of stuff, so I don’t have a specific category, but I have that same feeling of realization and freedom I had when I first started looking up ADD in women. A lot of the symptoms are similar, just the root cause is different.

      Not discounting that you might have ADD/ADHD at all, just sharing a bit of my story about why it’s so incredibly important to see a pro so that they can help you get to the root and start addressing that.

      And, for careers, I’ve found that, for me, I’ve learned what I can and can’t handle. It was helpful to blaze my own path and go independent, eventually leaving traditional classroom teaching, because I’m happiest when I have a lot of different projects and don’t have to organize a bunch of administrative stuff. Giant caveat: just hire someone to help you with bills and accounting (a major procrastination trigger for me anyway). The money you save from not having late fees will be well worth it! Now, I’m working for one company, and it’s amazing. I have an amazing boss/manager who must be the most organized person on earth. Once someone puts me in a well-organized box and says, “Create! I’ll take care of the emails and management!” I can do great work, :)

      A therapist can also give you great CBT to get you started on a path to change–you don’t have to stay stuck in your old routines, and if you fall off the wagon, you can get back up!

  133. VultureCulture*

    At what point do I go back to my boss about my co-worker not pulling his weight?
    We’re a 4-person IT department in the public sector with the budget for only 2 people so we both have to be incredibly efficient to get our job done and make sure the end-users are taken care of in a timely manner. He’s past his probationary period but has shown to have a terrible work-ethic and had a complaint against him before he was off probation. He also has a horrible temper and will get absolutely furious if I ask him for help. His typical day is to come in, get on Facebook for an hour or two, disappear to the back storage room and get on his phone, answer a phone call or two, then take off to lunch while the phones and emails are screaming. My boss will send us urgent projects to work on and he’ll straight up ignore them. Boss has made comments before about how he will disappear but has not caught him Facebooking/being distracted in the act because we can hear footsteps down the hallway and he’ll set his phone down or minimize his browser before they get to our office. I have no issues saying something to him about needing to do more and he typically gets angry and will either ignore me or slam things around. He’s been here a year and if we both are CC’d on an email for a project that one of us needs to complete he still to this day has not taken the initiative to claim the project and complete it. He either waits for me to email them back and say that I’m doing it or for me to tell him to do it. I’ve tried letting it sit for a few days and that usually involves the boss coming down and asking why it hasn’t been done.

    I was up to my eyeballs in work yesterday and he was standing behind my desk on his phone playing a game. I told him that he needed to work on the project boss sent us and he said he didn’t get that email and knew nothing about it. I pulled up the email and showed him where he access the document with a time stamp earlier that day and he fell completely silent. He didn’t talk to me for a few hours and when I asked him work-related questions he would say “I just responded. You didn’t hear me?” Our office is completely silent and my hearing is fine.

    I’ve went to boss before about this guy (he made lewd, sexual comments on a regular basis when he was first hired) and I feel uncomfortable going back to him about this but my mental health is suffering due to the stress and work load. Is it time to go back and say something? If I do, what’s the best way to approach this without making it seem like I have a personal issue with him? Since I’ve already went to boss about the sexual comments (boss took them seriously but he’s still here…and the comments were pretty bad) I want to make sure I do this right without sounding like a baseless complainer. I’m getting anxiety and depression about coming into work and the stress is physically manifesting on my body with tensed shoulders/muscles and clenching my jaw – things I only do when I’m stressed.

    1. LCL*

      Ask to meet with your boss about work assignments. When you meet with him, show him a summarized list of what you have done that week. Don’t feel guilty about taking company time to make the list. Then tell him you are swamped and are requesting his help to even out the work load. Tell him the email assignment system isn’t working very well because you always end up doing the jobs. And when you ask other guy for help he slams things around and ignores you. In other words, just stick to the facts, boss knows other guy is a slacker but needs a push to do something. Stop all the engagement with telling the other guy to do his job and proving to him he was wrong, that’s boss’ job not yours.

    2. Snark*

      That point is now. Go talk to your boss. Tell him everything you’ve told us. Your boss knows his productivity sucks and made those comments to you to fish for more information.

    3. Menacia*

      Do you have an HR department where you can escalate issues? I am asking more for the sexual harassment incidents than the other, but it seems your boss is *not* taking things as seriously as he should so it’s no wonder your coworker is getting away with what he’s doing. If there is no oversight for someone who clearly needs it (believe me, it happens here all the time, management does not manage!) nothing will change.

      Sorry you are dealing with this. :(

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      It looks like your boss is a huge part of the problem. Assigning projects to the two of you without giving each project specifically to one or the other of you doesn’t work unless both of you are conscientious employees who will pick something up as soon as your plate clears.

      I say start letting balls drop. Do as much work as *you* can in a reasonable time frame, and then let everything else go. If boss asks you why X wasn’t done, you say “I focused on Y and Z today, and that’s all I had time for.” If the boss then asks “well, why didn’t you make Fergus do it?” your answer is, “I don’t have the authority to make Fergus do it, so when I’ve asked him to pick up projects, I haven’t been able to get him to agree.” You could also add “I think it would be helpful if you would assign these projects to one or the other of us rather than both of us at once, so that everybody’s responsibilities are clear.”

      2. zora*

        I even would say when an email comes across with a task, you should reply all each time and say “I can’t do this, I am working on X and Z”. Then leave it. Then the boss should either say “Ok, Fergus, you need to do it.” Or, what AdAgencyChick said above will happen.

        You definitely need to just STOP doing all of the extra work. Do what you can do until it’s time for you to go home and then walk out the door. The boss will start fixing this when balls have actually dropped.

  134. shep*

    How do you deal with angry and/or aggressive phone calls without letting the caller walk all over you, but still staying calm and collected? This is an issue I have MAYBE once a month, so it doesn’t happen often, but because of this, I have relatively little practice.

    Some background:

    I work at a regulatory agency and field a fair amount of phone calls, although that’s only a minor part of my job. My role when answering calls is mainly to answer regulatory questions or give resources, so it’s not *quite* customer service, but I do think that bringing an element of customer service to my role is important.

    Usually, people are very pleasant. Occasionally (as I’m sure is the case in all fields), someone will be ridiculous.

    A lot of the more ridiculous people aren’t calling ME, but are playing with the phone tree to get a live person because the person they’re actually trying to reach “isn’t answering” and they want me to do something about it because it’s Very Important.

    This display of entitlement INFURIATES me.

    I’m learning to put my foot down and shut these calls down as well as I can (and I think I’ve been doing a reasonably good job), but I still sort of muddle my way there because I’m trying to be as firm-but-kind as I can while combating minor anxiety over the situation.

    Yesterday, I had one of these calls. It certainly wasn’t a terrible call, as far as terrible calls go, but he basically wanted me to circumvent the normal route of communications/materials processing to get his information put through faster.

    Obviously, I’m not going to do this. I’m absolutely not rewarding this kind of behavior.

    I’m learning to recognize that when we start to go in circles, the call needs to be shut down. I feel like I let yesterday’s call go one round too long and let myself get too worked up (although I was still in the bounds of polite). He knew who he had to speak with and was frustrated because he kept getting her voicemail, but that there must be “another route” because “her family has to get ahold of her somehow while she’s at work.”

    WHAT. YOU ARE NOT HER FAMILY.

    Finally I said, “There is no other route. Please hold while I transfer you. Thank you.”

    I think I keep holding out and letting these calls go too long because I’m hoping the caller realizes they’re being unreasonable and I won’t have to forcibly redirect the call (because that seems rude to me), but at a certain point, something has to give.

    So with this call, I think I did a decent job, but I was a little rattled afterwards, and my actual delivery in retrospect seemed really inelegant to me.

    How do you handle calls like this and still maintain your poise?

    1. Murphy*

      Generally, be polite, matter of fact and, if needed, repetitive. “I’m sorry, but I’m not able to reach her.” “I’m not going to be able to do that.”

      At my old job I watched someone from another department de-escalate an angry customer who wasn’t going to get what she wanted. Pretty much anything the woman said, my co-worker just said “We’re not going to be able to do X today.” Woman would say some stuff. “I understand. Regardless, we’re not going to be able to do X.” It was amazing. The customer was still unhappy, of course, but eventually she gave up.

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Well, one, her family would presumably have her cell # so that’s just an absurd statement.

      I used to work in retail and got all manner of customers in person so unless I’m cussed out over the phone in my current job (it’s happened) I don’t get too rattled. Within reason, you’re allowed to have a firm (even annoyed) tone of voice. Respect begets respect. I won’t ever be outright rude, but if you’re getting volatile with me don’t expect me to be roses and sunshine back.

      I know it’s easier said than done since I also battle with anxiety. But. YOU are not the problem. The person on the other end who assumes they are more important than your policy is the problem. They’re unhappy with that? That’s their problem with not respecting rules. Because that’s what they’re upset about. It’s not *you* personally. You’re just the gatekeeper and you’re doing your job.

      1. shep*

        Oh my goodness, I appreciate all of this so much. I may have to print out your comment (especially your last paragraph) and tape it over my phone to look at when I have difficult calls. Thank you!

    3. Celeste*

      Well, you do give customer service to the calls for your area, and it sounds like you’re good at it.

      The root cause here seems to be that some other department isn’t as good at their end of the customer service for the population they serve. It really sucks when people don’t understand their role as civil servants.

      Can you elevate it to your management that you are receiving a lot of calls that you can’t answer, because it isn’t your department? Maybe this would get the other group(s) put on notice to improve.

      My suggestion for coping no matter what is to move from thinking that these people are coming at you all entitled, and have some empathy (just some) to how desperate they must feel when the people who should pick up the phone when they call, will not.

      I think you need to make a script you can give to them about how you are sorry they can’t get through to the department they need, and that you do care. Start taking their name and number to deliver to the other group; they wanted to be heard, and now they got heard by someone. Tracking this will make your case that you really are being burdened with calls and that there’s a problem that management needs to correct.

      Good luck! You sound like one of the good people.

      1. shep*

        I actually don’t get a lot of these calls (which is why I’m so anxious about answering them, because I don’t have a lot of practice). It’s definitely not a matter to elevate to management. This department is always incredibly busy, fielding an outrageous number of calls per day (as in, my monthly total is on par with an individual’s daily total), and just as many messages. The act of me taking the person’s information down and giving it to this person is essentially giving her a duplicate message and creating more [unnecessary] work for her to sift through, AND it’s not going to give the caller a quicker result. So I’m not willing to do that.

        1. shep*

          My main point was to illustrate that these are all “good people” and very clearly understand and act in the role of civil servant re: your definition, even if the optics aren’t clear from the outside.

          I don’t think the average caller has even an inkling of the volume of calls, emails, and voicemails the person they’re trying to reach receives.

          I always assure callers that as long as they’ve left a voicemail for the person they’re trying to reach, they should receive an answer soon. I remind them that they get a ton of calls, but are very good about getting back to everyone in a timely fashion. That’s the best, *and most efficient* for ALL parties involved, answer I can give.

          The issue lies in the one or two people a month who refuse to accept this answer.

    4. LQ*

      Honestly the biggest thing you can do is stop being so frustrated at these people. It sounds like they are taking a way disproportionate amount of your mental energy and absolutely the time you spend being frustrated is likely greater than the time on the calls if they are monthly or so.

      Don’t worry about the display of entitlement (I mean do, but you’ll never change that one person, you can do other things, many of them, but you have to find a way to either channel that (keep track and every call like that you volunteer an hour at your school, write a letter to an official, whatever makes you feel like you can change entitlement) or just let that go). You are the person who is going to shrug at the line budger and say, nope, you have to go to the back after they just shoved their way up to your line. They wasted their time shoving and coming to you instead of waiting in the correct line. All you have to do is (what you have been it sounds like) firm but polite “go back to the end of the line and start there just like everyone else.”

  135. Beaded Librarian*

    So it’s been an interesting week at work I work at a library and since Saturday I’ve had to right 3 incident reports involving patrons and two of them I had to call the police with. That always makes my anxiety go up but it dispasted pretty quickly. The last one involved an autistic patron swatting/slapping my hand/face. I did not call the police for that however the aftermath of it leads me to my question. How is a good way to processes something like that if you are the supervisor on duty? For this one my anxiety levels stayed high and I will admit to fixating on whether or not a misread something about the situation and if I had reacted correctly (I thought she was wanting a high five so had my hand up but not moving) I was able to talk about the situation with several coworkers who are also supervisor level but I don’t think hat it would have been right for me to go into things with lower level staff had it been at night or a weekend when I am the one in charge. Thoughts?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m not sure why you don’t want to talk to “lower level” staff about something like that. Maybe it’s just because I have always worked in places with super flat structures, but I’ve certainly mentioned when someething has left me off my game. For example, language like, “Sorry, something weird just happened with a patron and I’m have a bit of an off night because of it. So, if I see a little off tonight.”

      I would also have not taken the interaction well. I do not want to be touched my patrons. I don’t care if they are autistic or not. That’s entirely inappropriate behavior and I would be deeply disturbed by it. I think if you can’t talk about things that happen during the shift with other folks on the shift, than I’m not sure how you build community and morale. Maybe there’s a nuance to this I’m missing.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I’m generally a no touchy person also, though I make exceptions for close friends/some family members (like…immediate family), also anklebiters who do the random leg hug of their own volition. If you realize your actions may be perceived as off, I’d just deflect with something like what AnotherLibrarian has said.

      2. Beaded Librarian*

        Part of the not wanting to talk with lower level staff is we have one long term part timer who has only recently been managed properly. She has a habit of complaining about things that are understandably an irritation in from of patrons who don’t need to hear about it and with her I’m concerned that even if I bring it up in the back that my being ‘off’ because of having to deal with an anxiety producing situation will will give her an opening to talk out front I won’t shut down right. I think I’ve been guilty of that before when explaining other situations I’ve had to write reports on. That problem is being addressed but the process is slow.
        I didn’t mean to imply that the lower level staff shouldn’t know about incidents they are told although they usually get much less detailed information.

  136. Katrinka*

    I’m on a committee in charge of remodeling the staff lounge/break room in our academic library. We’ve got ideas about the kinds of furniture and appliances and multipurpose spaces we want, but I noticed in the “work theft” thread from last week there were a lot of break room-related grievances.

    So I’m asking the fine AAM community, what is your ideal staff lounge? How do you deal with space hogs, filthy people, and other annoyances?

    1. Traveling Teacher*

      If you have a coffee machine, kettle, or other drinks appliance, ideally there should be a sink in the room so that you don’t have to wash those or dishes in the bathroom (yuck!). Also, have a clear policy in place for when a fresh pot gets brewed.

      If you have a fridge, best to start with a draconian policy of “all food will get thrown out at X day/time between 5 and 6pm” so that you can keep it from getting too filthy. I’d recommend weekly, to start with, to get people in the habit. Best to give all appliances a thorough cleaning at that time too…

  137. JustaTech*

    Rant:
    Excel is evil! I’ve spent months working on data in Excel and in a statistical analysis program to get the results of my experiments. My coworker started auditing my data today (the *last* step before I finalize the report) and discovered that *all* of my calculated values do not match what you get if you do the calculations based on the numbers you can see (that are in tables at the end of the report). None, not one, matches the values I used to do the statistical analysis.

    Why? Because Excel hoards decimal points, and uses those numbers (that it doesn’t show you) to do the calculations. So of course they don’t match. But if they don’t match I can’t complete the audit. And I can’t just put all those extra decimals in the audit tables because by the rules of math and science I don’t get to have those decimals; they’re all made up.

    So now I have to copy and paste all my spreadsheets into new spreadsheets and re-do all my calculations and then take *those* numbers and put them back into my statistical software and hope like heck my results haven’t changed.

    And all of this is just so *wrong*! I shouldn’t be doing dodgy cut-and-paste-as-text nonsense! This is science! This is freaking 2017!

    I would feel worse if I didn’t know that these kinds of errors have been missed in the past by major scientists and have made it all the way to big papers like Cell and Nature and Science. But it’s not how I want to spend my Friday.

    (Thank you for being a place where I can have a whiny vent that isn’t at my equally-suffering coworkers.)

    1. Snark*

      There’s a way to force Excel not to do that, but of course it’s some dark-arts wizardry nonsense that you have to go to Excel school to learn.

      1. JustaTech*

        I’m sure there is. And in the future I am going to do my level best to take a hammer to this template we use to minimize the amount of this rounding nonsense. But the fact that you have to be a level 12 Excel wizard to get it to do what you think it’s doing, that’s what’s getting to me.

        And having to re-do all my work. There’s that bit too.

        2. Excel Hellion*

          Do you have your formulas nested in a =ROUND function with the desired number of digits? If you do that to each formula it should take care of things. ie =ROUND(forumula or reference cell, # of decimal places)

          2. JustaTech*

            Oh, I had no idea that was possible! That’s awesome! I’ll try it on this and see if it fixes everything. You’ve given me so much hope!

          3. Friday*

            Alternatively (and this is what I’d do) take the ROUND functions out of your spreadsheet completely. Don’t let anything round, and just format all of your numbers to show however many digits after the decimal point (or 0 digits) you want.

      2. Jean (just Jean)*

        “dark-arts wizardry nonsense”
        This is a w o n d e r f u l summary of Excel! Can I borrow this phrase?

    2. paul*

      what function are you using? Just a basic add/subtract/divide/multiply thing, or do you have calculations that are referencing other calculations within the worksheet?

      1. JustaTech*

        It’s just multiply/divide, but those values are used to calculate yields, so it definitely carries through to values that have to go into other software.

        1. paul*

          I was wondering if the =ROUND function would work but it looks like Excel Hellion covered it; I’m just leery of using it if what you need in a cell depends on a calculation from another cell rather than a static value (I’ve gotten weird results with it that way)

    3. Emily*

      I don’t know specifically what your field-specific requirements are here, but if you can exclusively-use something like R or Python that will both write your program and output it however you need it to an Excel file, it can spare you from doing all that cutting, pasting, etc.

    4. Beancounter Eric*

      Excel is not evil.

      It is a tool…simple as that.

      I’ve been using Excel since the early 1990’s – the problem is either you are using it for something it was not designed for, or you don’t know how to use it.

      Either way, don’t blame the tool.

      Also, sounds to me you are a bit late in the game to be catching this – I’d have tested several times throughout the process to ensure things are working as they should.

      1. JustaTech*

        I am using it for multiplication and division, which is hardly beyond the realm of reason for Excel. The problem is Excel hiding how many decimals it is storing versus how many decimals it is displaying (when the data is imported directly from another program.

        Given how often Excel round errors are a problem for the users, I’m surprised that it hasn’t been addressed by Microsoft.

        1. nonegiven*

          I remember some DOS spreadsheet. I couldn’t find a rounding function but I could add .005, then put the whole thing inside a truncate function so I could keep the decimals to 2 significant digits, while rounding up or down.

        2. XL Nerd*

          Sorry this is so late, but in case it does get to you – there is an option that does exactly that. Use “Set precision as displayed” – it’s an option set at the file level. In my current version, it’s File/Options/Advanced/When Calculating This Workbook/Set Precision as Displayed. I think it’s moved around over the years so you might need to Google if you’re on an earlier or later version.

          Just be careful because it can sometimes be ‘sticky’ and migrate to other files. I know there is a logic to it, but I haven’t needed it in a while and would have to look it up.

      2. Five after Midnight*

        Excel is not evil. – I agree. It has it’s pros and cons just like any other tool.

        As for “hogging” decimals, it does not do that, it displays exactly what you told it to. If you want to see all numbers in their full glory highlight that area, right-click, and change formatting to “general” (you may need to widen the columns). You _do_ have to be careful when importing the numbers as Excel will try to guess the display format – best practice is to default all imports to “general” _unless_ you know exactly what the original data looks like, how it will be used, and the process is repeatable.

        And, as multiple people already pointed out, use ROUND function to reduce the decimals. However, you may want to also look into ROUNDUP (always rounding _away_ from 0, so 4.3 becomes 5 and -4.3 becomes -5), ROUNDDOWN (always rounding _towards_ from 0, so 4.3 becomes 4 and -4.3 becomes -4), and TRUNC (getting the integer portion of the number). There are also INT, FLOOR, CEILING, MROUND, EVEN, ODD, with each one behaving slightly differently. I could go on for hours about Excel functions… Good luck, and I hope not all is lost with your project!

      1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        eh..just realized that still looks confusing. Let’s say you are just multiplying the data in A1 by B1 and you want 3 decimals.

        =Round(A1*B1,3)

        It still works if it’s another formula. So =round(sum(A1:A20),3) also works.

        1. Five after Midnight*

          ROUND, and it’s siblings, will also round numbers to the left of the decimal point, so =ROUND(31415.67,-2) will result in 31400. Notice the minus sign in front of the second argument.

    6. Student*

      One, from a professional data analyst to another, stop using excel for professional data analysis. It’s not the right tool for your job.
      Two, if you HAVE to use Excel: Have you tried using the “round” function? It does exactly what you are trying ot do. There are probably other functions applicable, but it’s the first one to come to mind. If you do =round(5.5555555,2) you get 5.56. None of that extra decimal nonsense on anything that acts on the rounded value.

      Also, you only do this rounding at the end of analysis, not at mid-points, if you can help it. And you should have uncertainties that ultimately determine how many sig figs you keep.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I have dyscalculia, so I can’t do what you’re doing. But I hate that Excel won’t let me do the view-side-by-side thing that Word lets me do, where you can simultaneously scroll. That really annoyed me when I was doing data comparison at Exjob. The day I got two monitors, I was the happiest little camper you ever saw.

    8. Mmm Hmm*

      You are correct. Excel is evil. It’s the most temperamental & uncooperative software I’ve ever had to deal with. For years it wouldn’t stay resident on my machine, whether I was using it or not. It would do creative keystrokes when I wasn’t touching it. Once it moved to the pagination feature and added 1,300 pages while an IT support tech just gaped at it. Our IT team informed me that it looked personal & malevolent. They had tracked my machine & found no indication of human interference, & problems continued with different CPUs. No other software has behaved that way for me.

  138. Snark*

    I’m tired, you guys. I’m working on three projects by myself, all of which are normally completed by a team of 3-4 people, all of which are at different stages, all of which require field work, coordination with multiple stakeholders, and a lot of technical analysis and writing, plus managing a team of 6, plus all the normal life stuff like grocery shopping and bills and meal planning and cooking, and….goddamn, I’m just feeling overwhelmed today. Part of it is the fact that it’s been rainy and dreary the last few days, but I’ve been doing this since January and I’m pooped. I’d love to take a personal day, or personal afternoon, and on the one hand I probably could, but on the other hand there’s stuff I could also push forward on and…..bluh.

    1. LizB*

      Take the personal day. In fact, take two if you can, one to do planning/cooking/errands things and one to just sit on the couch in front of your favorite entertainment and have zero responsibilities. January to October is a LONG time to sustain that level of work without a break. You may discover when you get back that it’s easier to push stuff forward when you’re a bit better rested.

    2. Specialk9*

      Sounds utterly exhausting. Any chance for this getting better in the future? Can you find another job?

  139. rageismycaffeine*

    Last week I posted here talking about some issues I was having with HR here (https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/open-thread-september-22-23-2017.html#comment-1652513). Everyone recommended that I cool it and wait for my boss. I did, and the first words of his mouth when he finally came into my office to talk about it were “what the hell?!” He’s just as annoyed by the HR rep’s behavior as I am. He had me write him an explanation of why we wanted to do the exercise the way we did, saying he was going to use it to help craft his own response – well, of course, instead he just copy-pasted what I wrote, but whatever. The good news is that the HR VP finally conceded and said that we could use the exercise because it’s an industry standard, even though we usually frown on “tests” as part of an application process. I wanted to argue that it’s not a test, but let it go.

    I have not said anything to the HR rep about how inappropriate I thought her behavior was, because my boss said he would discuss it with the VP. I’m not sure he’s actually done so. I’m still aggravated about it but I may wait until after I’ve finally made my hire to say something to the rep directly, if I do at all, since a lot of the hiring steps are in her hands and I really don’t want to be penalized. :)

    Thanks to everyone who responded last week!!

  140. Fluffy Bunny*

    I have a question about references.

    I’m currently job searching and have been primarily using 2 people as references. I was supposed to see one of them today at an event, but she emailed me a few days ago to let me know that she wouldn’t be attending because she has to go out of town for an urgent family health issue.

    Today I was asked to provide references for a job that I have been interviewing for and I’m not exactly sure what to do. I definitely do not want to bother this reference when she is dealing with something urgent and medical in her family, but I don’t have a ton of other reference options (the company was small and was my first job out of college, so other references would be from when I was still a student). The other reference I have is my direct supervisor, so she will be the most important to talk to.

    Should I email and ask her if she is still okay with being a reference or just leave her out of it and come up with someone else, even if the relationship isn’t as strong? In the email where she said she wouldn’t be seeing me today she didn’t mention anything about references one way or the other, but I didn’t have anything that was definitely going to be checking references at the time. This job isn’t my first choice out of the ones I’m interviewing for (but I still need a job), so that is a factor as well.

    1. k.k*

      I would email her, but make it clear that it’s totally okay if she’s not available now. It’s very possible that she would be fine with the reference call, it might even be a welcome distraction. Worst case she says no, and you use someone else. There’s no harm in sending her a quick, courteous email.

  141. AnonAndOn*

    I’m not looking for advice, I’m just looking to vent.

    I have two weeks left of unemployment benefits and I’m trying my hardest to think positively. I came close to being evicted from my apartment (had to ask a relative for a loan that will take me forever to pay back when I’m working again…if I’m working again) and am struggling to keep up with my bills. I get a lot of rejections, ghosting, or scam responses to jobs I’ve applied to. Not even temp agencies, ones I’ve been on assignments with in the past, are getting back to me. Someone upthread posted about people’s immediate negative assumptions to unemployment and job searching (a relative, who hasn’t worked in years, asked “What are you doing that’s causing people to keep rejecting you?”) but even the positive comments from people (“You’ll find a job soon!” “Things will get better!” “Keep positive!”) are getting to me because “Keep positive!” isn’t going to keep food on my plate (I get a measly amount of food benefits now) or a roof over my head. I need to work again. I volunteer weekly (if I could afford to I’d go more often) to keep me active but it’s not the same as having a job to go to.

    I left a job I held for years with great pay and benefits last year (a place that I was miserable at and had its dysfunction) for a nonprofit job that I quit with nothing lined up after a week (dingbat move, I know) because it was so disorganized and I was left alone a lot of the time without proper training. Since I’ve held short term temp jobs and less than part-time odd jobs and there was a temp-to-perm one that I was let go from after two months though the temp agency claimed the assignment had only positive comments about me.

    I see jobs I’ve applied to posted again six months after I applied. Same description and everything. That chaps my hide. I’m tired of the days feeling like a continuous blob because I have no reason and no money to leave the house. I really want to work again.

    Thank you for giving me the space to vent.

    1. Fishcakes*

      I was in your situation last year. Job searching right now is really, really, really difficult and immensely soul-crushing. Others’ hot takes and outdated advice just make it worse. I hope you find something soon.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      *HUG* Me too, and I can relate to the blob feeling. That really sucks when they repost. I always think, “Well if you’d hired me, you wouldn’t have to do that!” but maybe the place really sucks and I dodged a bullet.

      Fingers crossed that you find something naow.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        Thank you. :-) I’ve been reading your posts here and hope things get better for you too.

        When I see a job reposted that rejected me I don’t bother to re-apply. It’s doubtful that anything’s changed since I previously applied. I also feel that the current jobs are slim pickings. I thought things would’ve picked up now that summer’s over and less people are vacationing at this moment, but it doesn’t look that way.

  142. Anono-me*

    It sounds like you are each taking on individual projects and are not working on stuff together.

    Can you just respond back to your boss’s emails with a cc to your coworker and either say “I can do project X.” or “I am doing projects A, B, C, and D so I do not have time to do project F.”. Then (and this is the important thing) not say anything more about project F to your coworker. Let Boss worry about where Coworker is on Project F or any othe projects that you are not responsible for.

    I also recommend being distant but pleasantly civil. (Good morning., Really really necessary to get your project done work question(s), Good evening.”

    Good luck.

  143. Lindsay J*

    A couple questions, which are really related.

    First, how do you deal with goal-setting for your department or employees when there are not really many/any metrics tracked, and there is not really room for advancement. Basically, I run a warehouse. I have two employees who I inherited, and both are really good. Both of them can handle pretty much any issue that comes along while at work, and they know who to escalate to if it is something above their level to deal with. Everything gets done on time. Basically I don’t have to worry about them at all. And really, the tasks that they do and know how to do are the tasks that they will be doing as long as they work here in this department – there’s not much chance to stretch into new skills or roles. And there aren’t really metrics like accuracy that can be tracked and improved on.

    Second, what do you do as a supervisor or manager when your department can basically run itself? I feel like all I do most of the time as far as the employees go is sign their time-sheets and order them supplies that they need. And really it’s a good thing! I’d much rather not have to be constantly babysitting squabbles or hounding people to do their work, but I feel sort of superfluous. In all my other positions I’ve had as a supervisor I had to constantly train people on new things, deal with disciplinary action, etc. Here it’s a different ballgame. I’ve busied myself with making improvements to the warehouse itself – improving how things are organized, streamlining procedures, ordering supplies and making repairs on damaged items. However, I feel like someone in a non-leadership role could do those same things. Basically I don’t know what value I add here at the moment.

  145. Silver*

    Help! I’ve got ADHD, depression, and anxiety. I’m working a contract job right now and my recurring problem is going again. The longer I work at a place, the harder and harder it is to get up for work, so I end up coming in late and missing days. We’re flexible on start times and anywhere between 6-9 is okay, but I keep coming in at 10. I work my 8 hours and I do good work (better than at least one of the two other people on the same project).

    I’m trying to get better and I know part of the problem is that I can’t get to sleep before 10 or 11, so I wake up super groggy. Even if I take melatonin, I fall asleep and then wake up around 2-4am. I rent a room near work and when I go home on the weekends I don’t have a problem getting up by 9 or so, but I can stumble around playing with the cats instead of playing games/surfing the web on my phone to get up. I know everybody says don’t play on my phone in the mornings, but if I don’t do something, I fall back asleep. I just can’t get myself to stop (executive dysfunction, why do you hate me so much?)

    I asked for suggestions on an ADHD tumblr and somebody said they’re using a virtual PA to call them in the mornings. Something like that could be great, but I don’t know how to find one for this. Any ideas? Any other suggestions?

      1. Silver*

        I live with my parents. When Dad retired, they moved somewhere cheaper, but there are practically no jobs around there. This job is with a big company that’ll look great on my resume and is really good to its employees.

        We’re in California, so, yeah, this is pretty normal.

    2. Karlie Floss*

      My spouse has RAGING adult ADHD and he struggles with insomnia and keeping corporate hours. With the help of his doctor and journaling, he has discovered that a large part of the problem is that his body is not naturally on a 24-hour cycle.

      When he went on long-term leave and was free to keep his own schedule, over longer periods of time he noticed that he was syncing up with my 9-5 schedule approximately every third day. He extrapolated that to figure out that he defaults to about a 32-36 hour cycle.

      It is an ongoing process, and forcing your body into a 24-hour cycle is a constant struggle of immaculate sleep hygiene, precise meal times, and compliance to medication schedules using alarms. I hope this is useful to you.

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        I am this way too. What helped most was getting blue-light blocking glasses and putting them on an hour or so before bedtime. (Blue light is what resets the biological clock; some people are more sensitive than others.) The glasses aren’t sexy, but they’re cheap, and they’re the reason I’m employable…

  146. broadcastlady*

    This is more of a vent than anything else. As I’ve mentioned, I work at a small family-owned business, we have less than 10 full-time employees. My only gripe is that payday is the 1st and 15th, but if they fall on a holiday or weekend, we get paid the following workday. So we don’t get paid until Monday the 2nd. I’ve worked here 15 years, love it and will never leave, but this sure is annoying. They know we hate it, but don’t care at all.

    1. Manders*

      I had exactly the same situation at my last job! It was a pain in the butt, but I think there was some kind of issue with the banks not processing payments on certain days, so even if the request was sent at the right time the money wouldn’t transfer on the correct day.

      I preferred an alternating Friday payday schedule, but for some reason a lot of small businesses don’t do that.

    2. JustaCPA*

      we have the same type of pay schedule but if the payday falls on a weekend or holiday, we pay the closest business day BEFORE. Like for payday this month, I paid everybody today.

      1. Broadcastlady*

        JustaCPA, I think that is how most places do it. At least the places in fanilar with. In addition, our boss refuses to get direct deposit. Like I say, more of a rant. Overall I love it here, but I wish I had my check today!

          1. I get that*

            Just because it’s after stated company pay date does not necessarily make it late under the law.

  147. Anon AF For This*

    TL;DR: Former supervisor wrongly accused former coworker of trying to take classified material out of a classified building while still inside the building. (Read on for details.)

    I work for Gvt Agency as a contractor, and I previously worked for the same Gvt Agency with Team Awesome. Due to a new government supervisor of Team Awesome coming in and making the work environment miserable through a lot of problematic behaviors (passive aggressiveness, double standards, favoritism, a lack of understanding or coherence from supervisor regarding guidelines), Team Awesome became a miserable place to work. One instructor left Team Awesome to work elsewhere, then through contracting issues far above me myself and another instructor were moved off Team Awesome elsewhere.

    I still keep in contact with members of Team Awesome because I genuinely like them, and it just so happens that instructor who left Team Awesome to work elsewhere works a few desks from me! Mickey (former instructor) asks me if I heard what happened with Clara (Team Awesome gvt supervisor) and Rory (former coworker still on Team Awesome). I said no, and got the details.

    Team Awesome was in Gvt Agency for a two day seminar that was unclassified, which means no super secret squirrel stuff. Before the seminar on day 2 Clara asked Rory if he had the paperwork to carry classified material, to which Rory said no, because he’s never needed it. Team Awesome only teaches unclassified material, and always has. She says okay, Rory thinks nothing of it, and carries on with his day.

    After lunch during a breakout session, Clara comes into the room before the session starts and tells Rory he needs to take notes. Rory explains that he only has the unclassified pamphlet for the event, but he’ll do the best he can. As he’s leaving the breakout session and still in the Gvt Agency, Clara meets him with two armed security guards. “Stop that man, he’s trying to take classified information out of Gvt Agency!” The security guards are baffled, and don’t know what she wants them to do. He’s still inside Gvt Agency, technically. Rory is understandably confused and upset, because this is his supervisor, and she knows him. He wouldn’t do that. He tries to reason with her, or talk directly to her. She puts a hand up, informs him he’s not to speak to her, and reiterates her demand to have the guards search him.

    So they do. In the middle of the hallway in gvt agency, in front of lots of passerbys. To no one’s surprise- they don’t find anything on his person that is classified in the least, and they let him go.

    Now here’s where I come in. In my time on Team Awesome I’d spoken to team supervisor (not gvt supervisor) and contract supervisor about Clara’s behavior, and why it led to an unhealthy work environment. In fact, every single person on Team Awesome said the exact same thing. Two former members of Team Awesome had a documented list of everything she’d done to create a paper trail!

    Since this incident Rory has reached out to me to alert me that he may need my help. He’s also done this with all of the instructors for Team Awesome who interacted with Clara. As far as I know, he’s currently teaming up with our company’s (we both work for TARDIS) legal team, and we’ll see what happens.

    1. fposte*

      That is wildly bizarre. Do you think Clara was deliberately trying to set him up, or is she just beyond reason?

      1. Anon AF For This*

        Given her earlier question about courier orders (what you need to carry classified information outside of classified areas), I do think so. Admittedly, I also think she’s beyond reason.

        1. fposte*

          If there are updates, please report back. This is like spy-novel fascinating. Maybe Clara is doing something with the classified documents herself.

              1. Anon AF For This*

                He contacted me to tell me he might need my help with an issue regarding Clara. I explained that I’d been briefed on it by Mickey (who Rory told immediately after it happened).

                I also talked to Donna who is still on the team. She spoke to Rory at length about it last night, and her confusion is why team supervisor and contract supervisor are acting like it isn’t a big deal.

                Now I’m playing the waiting game.

  148. Amber Rose*

    So I’ve started being really, really rude to two particular callers. The first is a scammer, claiming to be from the better business bureau, who wants to know when we’re moving. I get this call sometimes several times a day, and I’ve started to lose my temper even at work. The second keeps asking for Fergus, who works out of a different country. It’s always the same woman, and she always asks for the same dude, and I’ve actually given her three different phone numbers and an email to contact him at so I’m not sure what her game is, but I’m out of patience. She also sometimes calls multiple times a day. I get a kick out of people who do that, because all calls are taken by me. I am the gatekeeper!

    My neighbor thinks my hushed, furious ranting and angry hanging up is hilarious but I feel like I need a better method here. My at home method is furious cursing (usually scares ’em off), but I have never felt comfortable cursing at work and don’t really want to get in the habit.

    1. Temperance*

      Is this on your cell phone, or your work line? I’m not sure if this is an option for you, but I screen calls and delete messages like those.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Work. No way to screen calls. We have literally the shittiest like, VOIP phone system in the universe. It doesn’t even have voicemail.

        1. Temperance*

          After reading your comments downthread, I can suggest what worked for me when dealing with a similar weirdo to that lady who keeps calling for Fergus.

          A strange woman kept calling for my boss from different numbers, and asking for something we don’t provide, and when I suggested who could provide that, she told me that I was “terrible” and trying to destroy her life. (She wanted us to find her an apartment because “someone”, who she couldn’t remember, said that my boss does that. We’re LAWYERS.) I just broken recorded and said “we have discussed this previously, call X number for someone who does that work” and hung up.

    2. Murphy*

      I wouldn’t worry about the scammer. Just hang up.

      For the other woman, I would just literally say the same thing. Every single time. I’ve given you Fergus’s contact info several times, and there’s nothing else I can do. Have a nice day.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        I do. I’m only worried about it because I’m BUSY, and it’s so effing frustrating to run for the phone and talk to these people when I’m in the middle of stuff.

    3. LizB*

      Can you see the number that’s calling when the phone rings, and does the scammer always call from the same numbers? If so, I’d just not pick up the phone (or pick up and immediately hang up if you don’t want it ringing) when you see that number.

      For the Fergus-seeker, can you send him an email telling him this woman is trying to get in touch with him and see if that helps or what he says?

      1. Amber Rose*

        Nope. Scammer calls from an unlisted number, and we get quite a few legit calls from unlisted numbers. There’s no way of knowing until I’ve interrupted whatever I was doing to dash for the phone, which is why I’m so angry all the time.

        The lady calling Fergus refuses to give me her name or any information, and the number she calls from also varies. So it would be an email like “some lady called for you.” I don’t know if that would mean anything to him. I could try.

        1. stupid persistence*

          She’s probably a debt collector. I’m not sure why, but there is a major mindless persistence factor there. A friend of mine got a new cell #, and had to get another after a few months because they were constantly hounded by people trying to collect on the previous owner’s debts, bond, etc.

    4. Graciosa*

      I think you need to find an alternative way of handling these – it sounds like you’re getting really wound up about this and letting it get to you.

      Can you talk to your boss about an appropriate script? In the first case, I would explain what’s happening and let her know my plan was to no longer engage and just hang up. You might also discuss whether the company is open to blocking the phone number – several times a day is definitely harassment!

      For the second, I think I would have one more conversation with her, along the lines of, “Ma’am, I’m not sure what else to tell you. I’ve given you all the information I have, so I’m not sure why you continue to call this number when I’ve told you many times that Fergus is not reachable here. It’s very disruptive to the business, and I need to ask you to stop.” Depending upon the response, follow ups could include a course of “I’m sorry we can’t help you [click]” or “I’ve already told you repeatedly that I can’t help you, and my manager has given me permission to treat this as harassment if you call again” or just [click] with possible number blocking. Again, make sure your manager is on board with your plan.

      I do recommend a log for each – you may need the documentation. But mostly I recommend finding a way to distance yourself from this emotionally a bit more – don’t give these people the power to make you miserable!

      Good luck.

      1. Amber Rose*

        My boss doesn’t care what I say, and the numbers are unlisted so I don’t even know what they are. I’ve used that script on the woman, and variations, but she just says “oh” and then hangs up.

        I’ve also tried just hanging up, but when a call comes in every phone in the office rings, and I have to interrupt whatever I’m doing to make a dash for the nearest phone because I’m only supposed to let it ring twice, only to find out I’ve lost my train of thought because of some jerkass. I’m really frustrated, but answering the damn phone is part of my job.

        What I really wanna do is something like in those stories where people annoy the scammers/telemarketers so much they never call back. But I’m not sure if that’s feasible at work. Maybe I could just start singing Banana Phone?

        1. fposte*

          IMHO, most of those stories are, to put it nicely, misleading; usually they’re annoying somebody who wouldn’t call back anyway, and sometimes they’re just fictional. That doesn’t mean you can’t sing Banana Phone if it would make these encounters more amusing for you, though, since your boss doesn’t care. Tell fake BBB guy you already moved four times–which move does he mean? Whatever he says, you did it, you bought it, and usually you talk to Bob at the BBB–does he work with Bob, because Bob’s a great guy, the best, and if you haven’t heard his Saskatoon stories you are missing out, boy. Unburden yourself on Fergus’s caller all about the guy you tried to find once years ago yourself and what is up with these disappearing people?

    5. paul*

      I wound up getting in a spot of trouble for suggesting that the “certified Windows Representative” calling about our “malware problem” try to give a lion a colonoscopy face first, but it seemed to work.

    6. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I get the “When are you moving?” scam calls at work too! I have no idea what they want, but I usually hang up on them or transfer them to the voicemail of someone who no longer works here. I wish I had advice for you because yes, those calls suck when you have more important stuff to do than deal with that nonsense.

      1. Amber Rose*

        They’re fishing for people who are moving, so they can sell either your new location or your old one to some unsuspecting victim when the building is empty. :/

  149. Underworked Assistant*

    In contrast to most companies in our industry, my office is pretty laid back and informal. From what I’ve heard, attempts have been made in the past to standardize who-does-what and how the Staff Teapot Associates are supposed to do their work. It never seems to stick. Part of the reason is we have a pretty high turnover in our Staff Teapot Associates – most work here a year or two and then move on. Right now, our current cohort of Staff Teapot Associates are all young and eager to jump right in and do everything.
    I am a Teapot Assistant and my position is really dependent on the Staff Teapot Associates, more so than even the other Assistants. The other Assistants have more independent work than I do, but I am almost entirely dependent on the Associates to give me work to do. The major problem is: they don’t give me any work to do. When they do give me work, it is usually work our staff of three Teapot Secretaries (the word “secretary” is part of their official title, although most places would probably call them admins) could easily handle. I worked as a Teapot Secretary for a while (and I wasn’t great at it) so I was really excited to get this job as a Teapot Assistant, because that’s what I went to school for, and that’s where my experience is. But from conversations I’ve had with our Super Young and Eager cohort of Associates, they don’t even have a clear idea of what a Teapot Assistant is, or how Teapot Assistants are supposed to be different than Teapot Secretaries. The Boss Teapot Maker who is in charge of our office even said we’ve never had clear lines between the two positions, and she doesn’t want there to be – she wants us to stay flexible. But right now, all I am doing is clerical work (and not even enough of it) instead of teapot assistant work, because the Young and Eager Staff Teapot Associates want to do everything themselves. I can’t even blame them, they have never been told what to delegate, or even taught how to delegate. (Like I said, they’re young, and for most this is one of their first professional positions.)
    Every time I say I’d like to do my own job, I feel like I’m somehow putting down our Teapot Secretaries. Like I’m claiming to be above them, or something. I’m not – at least, that’s not my intention – but I am getting frustrated at just doing clerical work instead of what I thought I was being hired to do. For a while, we had a great, experienced Staff Teapot Associate who had a much better understanding of how to use her Assistant (me) and everything was wonderful, but then she left for a better job and it all fell apart. As it was, when she was here she’s the only one who gave me anything of substance to do, as opposed to “mail this letter, make these copies, file this paperwork.”
    I’m bored to tears (often literally, like on a daily basis) and I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to approach the Boss Teapot Maker and tell her how unhappy I am without sounding like I’m putting down our admin folks by saying I don’t want to be one of them. I don’t know how to communicate what I can do for our group of Young and Eager Associates when they don’t even know how to delegate in the first place. I’m at a complete loss here.
    I don’t want to quit, this job is so wonderful for me in so many ways, but not having anything to do while everyone else complains about being overworked is driving me insane. When I’ve asked for more to do, it’s more clerical work, so going around and asking everyone if they need help isn’t a long-term answer. In previous offices I have worked in as a Teapot Assistant there has always been a clearer division of labor, so I got to do substantive Teapot work. I’m scared I’m going to forget how to do substantive Teapot work if I don’t get some of it soon, which is going to cause issues for me in the long run. No one but me seems to think this is even an issue, and I don’t want to be branded as a complainer or someone who’s “difficult.” I just want to do my own job, the job I thought I was being hired to do.
    Anyone have any ideas? Suggestions? Scripts? Anything? (Chocolate?)

  150. Oscar Martinez*

    Is it ok for the manager of my team to be super nice to me when we are by ourselves, but pretty much ignore me when we are with other coworkers?
    This generally happens in our casual/social situations, like if I ask this person about their weekend plans, they’ll turn around and answer it to someone else…which is mildly annoying but mostly write-off-able as bizzare weirdo behavior. But recently, this person will say something work-related to “all” coworkers but ignore me, like so:

    Manager: “Do you know about X?”
    Coworker she’s eagerly looking at: “Yeah.”
    Manager, without missing a beat or giving me any opportunity to say no: “Well, here’s the thing, we’re going ro be using it for Y….”

    This is driving me a bit bonkers… I can’t talk about this with other coworkers because I have a strict Talk No Sh*t policy. Other coworkers occasionally notice and fill me in but they are also passive personalities, like myself.
    Am I right to be annoyed, or am I bringing too much ego into this?

    1. Oscar Martinez*

      I want to add that I don’t have any pride, per se, about going up to her after one such conversation and say “hey, I actually didn’t follow any of the stuff after X,” but this is such a common pattern of behavior at this point and it’s exasperating (not to mention a huge stressor — what about me makes Manager not want to look at me??) to not be able to follow this conversation while it’s happening!

      1. Oscar Martinez*

        1. I’m so glad you think so. Honestly, I haven’t even talked about this for 1+ years with family & friends, because I’d been so worried that this is all in my head and Not That Serious.
        2. I’ve thought about it… I was going to gently bring it up once, but it’s a small business, we have no HR department in case it becomes a conflict. I figure Manager to be a reasonable person, but I worry about how things can go south if we don’t see eye-to-eye on this.
        3. I say that Manager is really nice, but Manager has their flaws (just like I do, of course). Manager has a tendency to talk behind people’s backs, which squicks me out so much. I have terrible fear of judgment.

        Do you see this as something I can change, though? I’ve tried a little bit, but mostly I’ve resigned myself to finding ways of dealing with it…

    3. LQ*

      I don’t know some of this seems weird and some of it seems kind of normal, I guess without knowing a lot mroe it’s hard to understand.

      Something I’d to is really focus on someone else in the conversation, does she ever do this to other people. Like I can totally see in a groupier sort of setting my boss talking to someone else and asking if they know about a thing and then launching forward when they agree, sometimes it is a conversation I should be a part of and I need to speak up because my boss assumes that I know these things (I’ve had a lot of this from my boss over the years). Sometimes it is a conversation I need to hear, but my boss doesn’t expect me to know all the details because I’m not going to be intimately involved in, only lightly.

      The turning to answer someone else might just be really weirdly trying to be inclusive in the conversations.

      I’d definitely see if she does any of these things to anyone else, especially if you aren’t involved in the conversations.

      Alternately it could be intentional because boss likes you and is super nice 1 on 1 and is doing a really shitty job of trying to be “fair” or “inclusive”.

      1. Oscar Martinez*

        Sorry, I can’t give more details because I’m worried about anonymity and stuff…but I’ll do my best.

        I’m a sort of para-professional in this team, so I definitely don’t have most of that background knowledge you seem to be referring to. On the contrary, I’m sort of expected to NOT know many things, but I’m certainly expected to be up to speed on things that I’ll have to summarize, code up, etc.
        I’m generally good about figuring out where things are not my territory, and I understand 800% that two coworkers are having an important discussion about work. I’m happy to observe these conversations and ask questions about what I couldn’t follow, afterward.
        But when I am in the middle of a project with Manager, they will sometimes have an extended conversation about it with another coworker (who’s not working on this) over coffee, and Manager doesn’t involve me and often doesn’t get back to me (when I’m the primary consultant on this project). I’ve got to go back and reach out. Again, I promise I don’t have an ego about this. I just see this as frustrating and rude, you know?

        I agree, it does sound like a shitty attempt at being inclusive. But I’d really rather have Manager treat me in a consistent way at all times instead of me having to deal with their multiple personalities…

        Observing Manager with others is a good suggestion! I will do this :)

  151. Manders*

    I had exactly the same situation at my last job! It was a pain in the butt, but I think there was some kind of issue with the banks not processing payments on certain days, so even if the request was sent at the right time the money wouldn’t transfer on the correct day.

    I preferred an alternating Friday payday schedule, but for some reason a lot of small businesses don’t do that.

  152. Tangram*

    I am struggling with a situation partly of my own creation. Last week, my team met with another to do some innovation exercises. Our two projects might have some overlap down the road, and the point of the get-together was partly networking and partly preparing for that eventuality.

    There’s a woman on the other team whom I’ve spent some time with before, whose personality is a lot more aggressive than mine. She often boasts about times she’s put people in their place, and times she’s won against people who’ve challenged her. By contrast, I came here from a job where everybody was out to get everybody else, and management would frequently pick one person to unite the team against (they called it having “interventions,” where the entire team would be taken to a meeting, sometimes in public, and the target was expected to sit quietly while everyone else talked about everything that irritated them about the target, and the target was then supposed to come up with an action plan to fix things), and I hated it. I would rather leave a job without notice than go through any kind of confrontation again, because of how ugly that environment was.

    This woman’s aggressiveness hasn’t been a problem before. Knowing what I do about her, I’ve gotten along with her by avoiding conversations on subjects like politics or coworkers, that might trigger conflict. Also, I don’t have to interact much with her, so it’s just a matter of being neutrally civil. While I was wary of her, I think she regarded me as a work friend.

    For what it’s worth, we’re both women. I’ve been at my job several years without ever having had any complaints against me, but she has her boss’s ear, and I’m generally regarded as a fairly middle of the road worker. I keep my head down, work to have amicable relationships with my team, and when personal interactions go badly, I escape to the bathroom where I use extra pumps of soap to make myself feel strong before going back with my people pleasing face on.

    During the exercise, we were randomly split into groups to do some brainstorming, and she was included in my group. It – didn’t go well, and I ended up essentially sitting out the exercise. When the larger group reconvened, this woman did the presentation for our group, singling me out for non-participation along with psychoanalyzing my motivations in withdrawing. The meeting continued for another couple of hours. Throughout, she kept whispering to me, ostensibly to apologize, and this is where I screwed up: I gave her the cold shoulder. I felt like an armadillo being poked with a stick, and I just wanted her to leave me alone. However, my behavior fostered another perception, that I was withdrawing not only from her, but from the meeting, which disrupted the atmosphere and ruined the event for everyone. Every member of her team and the event mods went to my boss afterward to complain. She claims she’s afraid of my becoming unhinged and attacking her. I’ve been instructed to fix things with her so there won’t be tension between our teams in the future. The problem is, I don’t know how. I understand that I behaved badly to the rest of the people in the meeting. It wasn’t fair to put them in that position, and it might have been better if I’d claimed to have a migraine, excused myself, and faced whatever repercussions came of that. At the same time, as far as she is concerned, I don’t feel that I’m in the wrong, by a long shot, and I’m afraid of becoming her regular punching bag if I don’t find a better way to fix it than by handing her a win. I’m also afraid of what will happen when our two teams do start working together. My own team isn’t treating me any differently to my face, but I’m afraid of what they’re thinking of me, too.

    Has anyone ever faced this before? Were you able to work out a way forward? Am I overreacting because of the previous environment, and I should just apologize and be done with it? Or should I brush up my resume? Am I washed up here because of this? I like my job, and before now, the environment hasn’t felt threatening, but now coming to work feels like I’m walking through an intense gale, just to make myself come in.

    1. AnonAcademic*

      “It – didn’t go well, and I ended up essentially sitting out the exercise. ”

      Can you say more about what happened? Usually if someone is being quiet in a group brainstorming discussion it’s not noticed enough for an entire team to complain, so I’m curious why others were so sensitive to what appeared as your shutting down.

      “Throughout, she kept whispering to me, ostensibly to apologize, and this is where I screwed up: I gave her the cold shoulder.”

      By this do you mean you gave her the silent treatment and refused to respond to her or anyone else in the meeting?

      1. Tangram*

        We disagreed about what brainstorming is. I thought that everyone in the group should have been able to shout an idea out and it goes on the board. She wanted to debate every idea before allowing up there. When I objected to that approach, she interpreted that as my arguing against the ideas that were already on the board, and started putting vote tallies on the ideas already up, like “7-1 for.” That was when I shut down. During the presentation, she singled me out as a lone wolf who can’t work in a team setting, and pointed to the consensus except for me on the handful of ideas the team was able to present.

        When she started whispering, yes, I gave her the silent treatment. When she didn’t stop, I started fidgeting with my phone to cover my distress, and could not make eye contact with anyone else for the rest of the meeting.

        1. Tangram*

          I guess now that I think about it, I could have taken control of the situation by accepting her apology and being quiet, but not fidgeting the rest of the meeting. At the time, I didn’t think of it. But now, I have to — what? I can’t apologize to her unless I want to spend the rest of my life at this job under her thumb. Since last week, I have been overhearing her in the hallways ridiculing me and talking about how people who behave the way I did and are so vengeful can’t possibly have fulfilling work lives. But our grandboss is on her side; he’s talked with her and told my boss to make me fix it.

          1. fposte*

            What does your boss say? She’s been talking to you about this, from the sound of it. Does she think an apology would solve this?

            FWIW, I don’t think an apology to her is going to make the difference as to whether you’re under her thumb or not, and you’re getting some clear signs that if you not being under her thumb causes workplace issues, that’s going to be a problem for you. I mean, you haven’t apologized to her and she’s being an ass about you now–is the non-apology such a victory? Not that I think it’s requisite, but I think you’re getting stuck on it as if it were more pivotal than it is.

            1. Tangram*

              My boss and I have met about it once, and I left with the understanding that I need to do something to resolve it. At the time, my boss was very understanding, and said she’s also had communication issues with this woman. She offered to facilitate a meeting. In the moment, I thought that sounded excessive. I’m an adult, I can have a conversation. But then I started getting scared. I can’t think of a way to reach this woman, and as I reflected on how to present an olive branch, I kept thinking I wasn’t able to have a conversation with her in public without feeling I’d been stripped of my voice and misrepresented. I don’t see how to make it go any better in private, and I’m afraid whatever happens in there, her framing of the story is the one that will be believed.

              I’m thinking my best bet may be to go back to my boss and ask for moderation for the event itself. Left to myself, I’d work on future interactions, but not meet with her, but I’ve been told a meeting has to happen. Can you suggest something, besides managing my demeanor, which I’m going to work on and will be easier now that I’m prepared, that I can do to make a meeting go well? I don’t know how to shift my perspective to make this meeting constructive.

              1. Kathenus*

                I would take your boss up on her invitation to facilitate the meeting, and maybe work with her on a list of talking points and goals for what the meeting includes. I can understand that the withdrawing and phone focus might have been an issue, but nothing that I’ve read so far sheds light to me on why anyone would indicate fear of being attacked. Asking what specifically you did to make her say that might be one of the meeting topics. But given the history I think having a third party facilitate would be extremely beneficial.

                1. Tangram*

                  The reason the focus is on her is that I ignored her in what looked like her trying to extend an olive branch. I don’t get the fear of being attacked. I’ve never had an interpersonal conflict here, and in fact, my only previous personality related feedback has been I don’t push back hard enough when I know I’m right; I’ll bring an issue up, but if it’s shot down, no one will ever hear about it again. I’m thinking it’s either projection on her part, and maybe I should be afraid, or she’s misrepresenting her actual feelings to play on her boss’s and our grandboss’s sympathy.

                  The weekend didn’t give me much clarity, though I am thankful for everyone’s answers. I’ll be getting with my boss today to work out a direction, and more important, to have a witness to whatever does happen. I can honestly apologize for being rude. I’d have liked to think that was beneath me, but obviously, it wasn’t when I needed it most.

    2. fposte*

      I realize this is probably some industry whose practices are deeply foreign to me, but this sounds messed up from top to bottom. How on earth did brainstorming turn into psychoanalyzing you, and why was that allowed to carry on? How are her ramblings getting to your team? Why did your merely being quiet (that’s all you were, right?) “ruin the event for everyone”–were they worried that you were displeased and would send them to the Tower?

      While I’m not particularly aggressive, I think I’m more so than you, so my impulse would not necessarily be to apologize to her. I would, however, talk to her (assuming she’s willing to do that, given your readiness to attack her and all) to say I’m really confused about her responses to the situation and I’d like to find a way to work with her in future. I wouldn’t overfocus on whether she gets a win or a loss, because I don’t care that much; however, I also don’t think this is a situation where it makes sense to go “Sorry, I don’t know what I was thinking by not enjoying your unprofessionalism.”

      1. Tangram*

        I was more than quiet – I felt humiliated and actively turned to my phone to try to manage my distress. I think that is why the mods were upset.

        As it was explained to me, my withdrawn attitude after returning to the larger group cast a pall on the room and everyone was profoundly uncomfortable, especially by witnessing me ignoring her, which signaled that something was wrong in what was supposed to be a fun event.

        1. fposte*

          Two part answer! 1) Yeah, turning to your phone in the middle of an all-in meeting is going to read hostile as well as disengaged to a lot of people. I can see why that didn’t go down well.

          I think she’s a PITA, but she’s not here so we can’t change her. It sounds like what might serve you well is finding a way to reframe her competitive approach so it doesn’t make you feel so challenged. I would recommend, for instance, the skill of friendly resistance. That means, for instance, you focus on diversity of opinion as a value rather than as a contest, so when she says “You’re the one outlier every time” you cheerfully say “That’s me! Breaking up the groupthink!” You decide which battles are worth it and which aren’t (for example, I’m with you that what she’s doing doesn’t sound like brainstorming, but I’d let that one go unless I had a specific objection about an important voice that isn’t getting heard).

          1. fposte*

            2) I don’t know if she’s doing this on purpose or not, but either way, you going with the flow and calmly rejecting the premise that you are bad if you’re not with her is going to be your best route to strength; that means you’re better off not leaving with a pretend migraine *or* turning to your phone, but hanging in there, getting your voice heard, and openly and professionally accepting the outcome if things go a different way.

          2. Tangram*

            Thanks, I really like these suggestions. Maybe someday someone will write a “how to say it” book just on ways to show the water running off your back. I’d buy that.

        2. nonegiven*

          Of course something was wrong, she intentionally humiliated you and she’s the one that needs to apologize for that and for talking behind your back claiming she’s afraid of you. I don’t believe for a minute that she thinks you’re going to attack her, she’s just twisting the knife, now. This insistence on an apology is more of the same.

        3. nonegiven*

          Of course something was wrong, she intentionally humiliated you and she’s the one that needs to apologize for that and for talking behind your back claiming she’s afraid of you. I don’t believe for a minute that she thinks you’re going to attack her, she’s just twisting the knife, now. This insistence on an apology is more of the same. She’s a bully

          1. Tangram*

            Thanks, nonegiven. I think I reverted to my old coping mechanisms because what happened in that meeting was so similar to what was normal at the old job, where fiddling with your phone was normal. This workplace has been more civilized; I don’t understand why no one else seems to have noticed the brainstorming or the way the presentation went, but I guess in a more typical place, those behaviors are so unusual that it kind of blotted out the more subtle hostility that came before. I may be dusting off my resume if she’s allowed to continue bullying me after I reach out, or I may take this insistence on fixing things as a sign that overall, this is a relatively healthy place. The old place put a lot of value on employees being at each others’ throats.

  153. Lindsay J*

    Okay, so, a friend and former co-worker recommended one of his employees to me for a position where I work. (It’s the same role as at his current job, but we pay significantly more.)

    A recommendation from my friend is basically gold in my eyes. I basically would hire someone on that alone.

    HR got the person’s resume, and we brought him in for an interview. His resume was not the strongest – he didn’t include exact dates or company names on it, and some of the job titles seemed odd (like warehouse manager/marketing, those are two things that don’t really seem related in any way or like they would normally go together).

    At the interview, he was a little withdrawn, but he seemed to be motivated, eager to learn, etc. And he was trained by my friend so I am sure he is capable of doing the job correctly. And a lot of his experience was related to the position – we ship aircraft parts domestically and overseas, his experience was shipping medications domestically and overseas.

    He wasn’t the strongest candidate I’ve ever interviewed, but he was more than adequate.

    We had another interview scheduled, with someone whose resume I actually liked better. However, that person did not show up for the interview. The rest of the pool was weak – nobody else we would even be interested in interviewing.

    My boss and I decided to offer the guy the position.

    However, when we emailed HR, they came back the next day and said there was a problem with his application paperwork that he filled out and that he was unhireable because of that. So we had to scrap the entire pool and start over.

    Complicating things is that the guy is a part of a minority race/national origin/religion. While I do not think that was a factor – especially as my two current employees are both minorities and born outside the US as well – I feel like the vague “problem with his paperwork” combined with that fact could cause things to look like discrimination is at play.

    Now my friend is asking me what happened with the guy he referred, and I don’t know what to tell him. The truth? Make something up? Say that I don’t know what happened? (I mean, I really don’t. All I got was that there was a problem with the way he filled out his application, and I’m new so don’t really have standing to push back yet.

    It would be much easier if we had hired someone else at the time – then I could say it was nothing personal but the other candidate was stronger. But with the position still being open it’s pretty clear that the issue wasn’t that there was someone better, but that there was a problem with his candidacy in some way.

    1. LizB*

      I don’t think it matters so much that you’re new – you can still ask HR what exactly the paperwork problem was, because whatever it was, it kept you from hiring a candidate you wanted to hire. I wouldn’t frame it as pushing back, but rather as learning what went wrong, with no expectation that asking the question will change the result. I’d also want to learn if this candidate was now unhireable forever, period, or if it was just this one application and if he re-applied in the right way he’d be fine.

      As for your friend, can you just tell him your HR ran into some issues and required you to start the search over? Or just “Unfortunately it didn’t work out with Wakeen, but thank you for the referral!”

    2. A.N.O.N.*

      “Problem with his application paperwork” could mean that he’s not actually authorized to work in the US, or that he lied about something on his application, etc. Who knows? Maybe he used to work at your company and was fired for cause. I wouldn’t assume HR is making up a reason, particularly a reason based on discrimination, as to why he’s no longer eligible for hire. HR is generally the dept making sure someone *isn’t* being discriminated against. If you really want more details, you can ask HR. They may not be able to share details with you, but you never know.

      As for what to tell your friend, I don’t see the harm in being honest. “We would’ve made him an offer, but HR said he wasn’t eligible for hire.”

      1. Chaordic One*

        I think that one of the possibilities that you’ve suggested is probably the most likely reason he wasn’t eligible for hire. In the past I’ve had to reject candidates for having bad driving records when their job required them to drive a company car. Theoretically, we could reject people if they had a criminal background or if they failed a drug test.

        In any event, if there was a reason for not passing his employment background check, it is certainly understandable that H.R. would want to keep those reasons confidential to protect the applicant’s privacy and also because of possible legal liability for failing to do so.

    3. Nacho*

      The truth, or at least the version of it that was told to you, seems innocent enough to tell him. Yeah, it’s possible that HR pushed back because he was a minority, but I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion without any evidence besides his status as a minority.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Definitely,ask HR to articulate what the problem was; that seems like a basic responsibility that they’re not delivering. Declining to make a hire requires an explanation. HR shouldn’t be overriding a hiring manager’s decision without even saying why.

      (I’m having a hard time articulating this. I’m seriously dumbfounded.)

  154. New York*

    I need help writing a memo to an indirect supervisor and direct supervisor requesting that I not be made to work in two locations and to no longer be considered under a dual reporting structure. I want to report to only one supervisor within my department versus two supervisors in two different departments.

    1. Graciosa*

      Why are you writing a memo? This sounds like something you would typically discuss (in person, or by phone, or in some combination). Were you asked to write a memo?

        1. Graciosa*

          If it’s not requested – or not a strange quirk of your company culture – that’s going to look very strange. Employees are typically expected to be able to have basic work conversations with their boss(es). Sending a memo seems like a signal that either you’re not capable of having the conversation, or there’s something else really strange going on.

          First, sending the memo means nothing – the request is still just a request. If there’s something else in play here – for example, you’re wanting to send a memo asking to only report to one supervisor because the other is engaged in quid pro quo sexual harassment that you haven’t mentioned to anyone – you should probably deal with that issue first.

          If your focus on making the request “clear” is a sign that there’s a communication problem somewhere, having a three-person conversation gives you a live witness (if you’re willing to report to one of them, I assume you have some basic trust that at least one wouldn’t lie). This is still a better option until there’s an actual decision.

          When you have a decision on a change, that may make more sense to “document” although it still wouldn’t be in a memo in any company I’ve worked in. A better approach would be to send a brief email along the lines of “Thank you very much for the discussion on Friday. As much as I enjoyed working for Clarissa, I think reporting to only Daisy starting on Monday will simplify things going forward.”

          Again, if there’s something else going on here, I’m open to hearing it – my comments are based on how I would perceive getting a memo from an employee who works for me on normal employment matter which is usually handled in conversation. I can think of one person in my career who even put a resignation in a memo (everyone else has used email after a call or meeting) and that too was after a normal conversation.

          You can probably tell that I’m still struggling with why you can’t have a conversation, but that would probably be my genuine reaction if someone on my team sent me a memo (to the point that it would distract me from the actual topic).

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Is this something you realistically have control over? Most of the time, reporting structures are determined by higher-ups and don’t change based on an employee’s request. And I echo Graciosa that this is better discussed in person; you can follow up with an email, but sending a memo first without any in-person mention would come across as out of touch in all of the environments I’ve worked in.

  155. Voluntary Layoff*

    My employer had voluntary (and involuntary) layoffs a year ago and I keep hearing rumors that other people have taken voluntary layoffs in the year since then even though technically last year was a firm deadline. My job is messing with my mental health and I want to take a voluntary layoff. If it’s not possible, I would stay until I found a new job. I can’t figure out how to ask if there’s a possibility of a voluntary layoff without my boss being told I’m thinking of leaving, which I do not want. You all give good scripts, does anyone have a good way of asking HR?

    1. Adele*

      I had a friend who volunteered for a layoff before being approached by his boss about it. He volunteered himself into being fired because his unit was one that was being kept in tact and the boss decided he didn’t like my friend’s lack of commitment.

      If your company is looking for people to lay off, voluntarily or otherwise, they will talk to you about it. I would just ramp up the job search.

  156. Be the Change*

    I’m working closely with someone right now on a very important project who I don’t normally work with. She is very, very dedicated — and completely high-strung, overwhelmed, exhausted, out of her depth, and *wigging out* unecessarily and I know this. She left a voicemail for me yesterday afternoon before 5; I had left a bit early for a personal commitment which is quite regular and is on my calendar. I get a notice on my email that I HAVE a voicemail, but I can’t easily listen to it without a computer, and I don’t currently have a computer at home. She prefers to call and leave voicemails (with little information, just please call) rather than email, which I find exasperating.

    So I ignored the voicemail until I came in early this morning, listened to it, and it was oh-my-god-please-call-me-I’ll-be-in-my-office-all-night-I’m-so-freaked-out. -_-

    I emailed her back immediately this morning (also mentioning that it’s probably better to email me if she needs something immediately after hours) and also called and left a message. She has not emailed/called, so I think she may be punishing me, sigh. We’ll be fine — there was no need for that level of freak — but I do feel guilty for not calling and soothing her.

    1. Havarti*

      Oh man, I hate people who leave voicemails telling me to call them back. What are you calling about?! Just tell me! One quick sentence so I know if I have to pull a file or ask someone else for the info. Geez.

      Don’t feel guilty! This internet stranger absolves you. Dealing with folks who freak out at the drop of a hat is exhausting and sometimes they need to learn the world doesn’t revolve around their freaking and they need to calm down. What you did was perfectly fine from my perspective. You are not obligated to soothe her.

      1. nonegiven*

        I hate the non message message.

        Don’t tell me to call you back because you want me to drive you to the er in the same amount of words that you want to tell me something not important or just chat a little.

        “Hi, call me back.”

        Tell me which kind of call back this will be. It’s a voicemail, not Kryptonite. If it’s the er I will call you back from the car on the way over. If it’s the usual non important thing, I’ll finish up what I’m doing, eat breakfast, then call you. Just let me know, in the voicemail, which I get a text of.

    2. k.k*

      I am officially giving you permission to not feel guilty (assuming you accept my authority as a random internet stranger). It sucks that she was freaking out, and it’s nice of you to want to help her, but really you did all that you reasonably could. Unless your office has an on-call expectation, she had no reason to expect you to return her call after hours. I myself am a high-strung, freak out prone ball of stress, so I get how she felt. But I’ve learned over the years that when I’m in a freak out, I need to find a way to deal with it myself. Hopefully once she has time to calm down and reassess the situation she’ll let it go.

    3. Tris Prior*

      It’s not your responsibility to soothe her. You didn’t do anything wrong. I say that as someone who is also prone to work stress-related freakouts.

  157. Miss Pantalones en Fuego (formerly Floundering Mander)*

    How should you follow up with someone who has left the company that you were hoping to work for?

    So last week I asked about following up with a potential freelance client that I met at a conference in April. I emailed her the week after the conference but never heard back, so I assumed they weren’t interested. I sent another email only to have it bounce back, and it turns out that she left the company in July (after being there only 6 months). She doesn’t appear to be employed anywhere else right now. I discovered this through landing on her LinkedIn page when I googled to make sure I didn’t misspell her email address.

    What’s the thing to do here? Should I reach out to her on LinkedIn and ask about who to contact at her previous company, or is that weird? Do I ask if she is still looking for freelancers or know who might be? Do I email the company at their generic address and explain that I know this person is no longer there but they might still want to use my services? Both? I’m pretty sure she doesn’t remember me, so reaching out might be a little strange.

  158. Book Cover*

    Sooooo… I work in outreach for a library. A colleague (peer level but 10-20 years older) and I are supposed to work this after school program, with me as lead and her as support. She has told me and another colleague/peer that she is going to try to get out of working this program by attending other events. This would leave me to do these programs with 15 kids at a time on my own. I’m not trained in education, and am barely trained for my job. Should I let my boss know what this coworker is saying? The program starts next week and she is already unavailable for the first week and a half.

    1. LizB*

      To me the bigger issue is that you’re supposed to be the lead on this program and don’t feel like you have enough training to do that effectively. I’d approach the boss about that for sure, and while you’re there you can mention that your colleague won’t be there for at least the first X sessions, “And I’ve heard she may not be working the program at all since she’ll be attending other events,” as part of your request for more backup.

    2. Observer*

      Of course you should – this is going to have a major impact on the program. Why would you NOT say something?

  159. North Seattlelites: Best neighborhoods?*

    My sister recently accepted a great job offer and will be relocating to North Seattle. Her job is located near the Northgate mall.

    Any neighborhood suggestions for apartments? Something in the $1600/mo range…safe, quiet neighborhood. She is also looking at Shoreline…

    1. Manders*

      Oh hey, I actually just bought a condo near that area, so I know it pretty well. Most of the surrounding neighborhoods are safe and quiet, even for Seattle (which is not a particularly dangerous city already). The biggest concern in North Seattle is usually property crime like car prowlers and stuff getting stolen out of yards.

      Maple Leaf is very close to the mall, quiet, and pleasant, but getting a little spendy. Lake City is a bit further away (~40 minutes walking) but it has its own nice little main street area and more apartments, plus it tends to be a little cheaper. Greenwood and Bitter Lake are nice, but might also be spendy. Keep in mind that my budget was much lower than hers; if she wants a studio or 1 bedroom apartment, that should be doable in any of those neighborhoods, but some will have a very low number of vacancies because they’re mostly zoned for single-family residences and not apartment buildings.

      The weird thing about Seattle is that the fastest transit is usually going between transit hubs, and Northgate mall is a hub, so she can actually live pretty far up in Shoreline or even past it and still have a fast commute because her bus will use the express lanes. Tell her to use Google Maps and look specifically at public transit times *for the hours she will be commuting* because that’s much more important than the actual distance she will be traveling to work.

    2. Wendy Darling*

      Stay away from Lake City, it’s just straight up unpleasant. I’m not a huge fan of Northgate either but they’ve been doing a lot of construction there so it’s probably different from last time I was looking to move. I don’t think it would qualify as quiet, though.

      It’s been a lot of years since I looked into housing in Seattle proper so I’m not sure what rents are like there now (Padmapper will probably be her friend) but I did some work in Maple Leaf a while back and it was very nice and quiet and full of trees. Some parts of Shoreline are nice and quiet and some are stripmall blight.

      A friend lives in Olympic Hills and it seems quite nice.

      1. Manders*

        Confession: I live in Lake City and in my opinion it’s really quiet and nice. I moved up from Capitol Hill and before that I lived right on the Ave in the U District, so my tolerance for unpleasantness may be higher than normal. I’m told the neighborhood has cleaned up a lot over the last few years, plus some recent zoning changes mean fancy new apartments will probably be going up soon.

        Another thing to keep in mind is that Northgate will be getting a new light rail station soon, so rents and property values in the immediate surrounding area are going to go absolutely nuts. I had friends in Maple Lead who got pushed out because their rent got too high, and I put an offer down for a condo there but it went for $90k over asking.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          I think I’ve just had personal lousy experiences with Lake City. I mostly go up there to get my car fixed and the area where all the car dealers are is really blegh. Also I swear something untoward happens to my car every time I’m there! That said I could never live on the ave, I would go completely bonkers and end up shooting noisy students with a super soaker filled with vinegar or something.

          I actually live on the east side now due to it being necessary to keep my partner’s commute from being unspeakably horrible. Property values are insane here also — I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to get a house unless I get a fancy high-paying tech company job again because I’d rather rent forever than move to a neighborhood I don’t care for.

          1. Manders*

            Oh yeah, I looked at some properties on the east side and got pretty grumpy about what I could afford there. Lake City wouldn’t be my first choice if I had an unlimited budget, but it was the best available option; I wanted a two bedroom, I’m picky about my commute, and I had a strict budget, so Lake City was the best available option.

            I’m also not wild about the area with the car dealers, BUT I’m seeing some land use planning notices going up on those lots, so I think that area’s going to look very different in a few years. I also read a bunch of the city’s planning documents (I’m kind of a nerd about this) and they’re pushing pretty hard to turn Lake City Way into a more appealing urban village. It seemed like a good idea to snap up something affordable and wait for the neighborhood to change, and I’m pretty confident that it will (barring something really catastrophic to the whole city like Amazon going under or a massive earthquake or something). Investors are jumping on everything in the area, paying absolutely huge amounts.

            Also, OP, tell your sister to ask her future coworkers about the best neighborhoods! As you can tell, Seattleites loooooove to talk about this stuff.

            2. Wendy Darling*

              Good to hear they’re trying to turn it around — I’m originally from the Los Angeles area and the bit with all the car dealerships reminded me of some of the less pleasant bits of LA County. I’m actually really happy with some of the zoning changes that are going on on the east side as well. My town has gone from being 90% single family or gtfo to bulking up its downtown with tons of mixed use. There’s not enough housing right now for everyone who wants to live here, so I’m all for the added density. (Also I can walk to literally everything now, and it is the BEST.)

        2. North Seattlelites: Best neighborhoods?*

          90K over asking! That’s insane! Thanks for all the info, this is helpful!

      2. LCL*

        Oh come on, Lake City isn’t that bad. Except for the gibbering tweakers and the mobile home heroin vending service and the mailbox thieves that you can set your watch by, Lake City is aight. At least the mailbox gang is reliable…
        Is your sister’s job west or east of Interstate 5? North or south of Northgate way? Will she have a car? Not trying to have you post her location. Shoreline is great, look in the areas bounded by 25th Av NE on the East, Meridian Avenue North on the West, NE 145th on the South, 205th Av NE/Ballinger Way on the north. If she drives.

    3. LCL*

      Thornton Place has vacancies according to the internet. A bit out of her range, but maybe with a room mate? Right by Northgate Mall is a large 2 year college, so the kind of smaller room for rent deals tend to go fast.

      1. Manders*

        I personally wouldn’t recommend Thorton Place–I think it’s overpriced even for its convenient location. If she’s willing to live with a roommate and also willing to pay $1600 a month, she could probably find a much larger apartment or even a smallish house.

        I think we may have different expectations for what we want in north Seattle though–my main complaint about Lake City is the number of retirees. Almost everyone else in my building is a quiet senior citizen. :)

        1. LCL*

          My big objection to Thornton Place is that the neighborhood group extorted millions from the city to daylight the creek. But that area is in the middle of the watershed, with miles of dark concrete culvert on either side. So daylighting doesn’t help the salmon coming up from the lake. We could have had an even bigger urban village there, it was in the plans, but the Thornton Creek people effed that all up with the long fight. It’s still a hella cool area, none of those businesses existed when I lived in Maple Leaf. Hate the worm sculpture on the corner, though.

  160. Wendy Darling*

    I’m waiting to hear back about an interview I did last Friday and the company just posted either the job I applied for or its clone on a different team.

    Realistically this is a position that makes up like 10% of the company’s employees — they have dozens of people with this title and it is entirely possible this is for another position very much like the one I interviewed for.

    OR IT COULD BE THE ONE I INTERVIEWED FOR. No way of knowing! UGH.

    1. k.k*

      I hate when that happens! It’s probably for another team, they’re hiring multiple people, someone forgot to stop renewing the posting, they have one of those rules that they need to interview a certain number of people, or literally 100 other reasons that don’t mean you’re out of the running. And no matter how many times you tell yourself that it won’t make you feel better. I feel your pain.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        One of my interviewers announced that he was going to tell me every bad thing about the job, which I appreciated, and one of the things he called out was that hiring takes for. ev. er. So the fact that I was supposed to hear back this week and haven’t heard anything as of late Friday morning is not actually concerning but it concerns me anyway because that’s just how this works. :P

    2. AMPG*

      Usually companies like this (with the same position on lots of teams) will have some way to code their job postings. You might be able to compare the one you responded to with this one.

  161. That Old Chestnut*

    Cheap Janitorial Subcontractor empties trash cans without actually replacing the bag, and I just got a faceful of gnats when tossing out my lunch trash. Joy!

    2. AnonAndOn*

      Gross!

      I’ve seen that happen in jobs I’ve worked at – not changing the bags, I mean. Some won’t change them unless the bag is a rotting mess. In your case it sounds like it should’ve been changed a long time ago!

    3. MicroManagered*

      We have the same thing… I’ve started just throwing away anything bug-attracting in the kitchen.

      1. fposte*

        We’re supposed to throw out all food in the kitchen here, so it’s on us when the bugs come into the office.

    4. Specialk9*

      Maybe tie up your bag at the end of the day. That way the lazy approach is grab and replace, rather than untie and empty.

  162. HJ*

    Any suggestions for jobs/industries to look into for someone trying to get out of retail? I’m looking for a position that I can leverage my customer service experience and bachelor’s degree to get into. I’m thinking a lower level admin/front end/receptionist position would be my best bet.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      reception/front desk type stuff is definitely a good place to look

      you could also consider a call center

  164. Concerned*

    I was contacted by a small organization I interned for and have stayed in contact with. I occasionally am contacted to research/write for them as well. One of my colleagues at the organization reached out to me because of an unexpected job opening. She is the supervisor for the position and wants “someone she trusts” and who has a “solid foundation” already – which was why she wanted me. She was really enthusiastic about wanting me to apply, and was already talking about how they would try to be flexible for me (as I would have to relocate for the position). A few days later she started walking back her enthusiasm, stating they were going to open up the position and she would let me know when they finished the job description. I understand the need to tone down her enthusiasm, as there probably are better-suited and/or equally strong candidates. But, now I’m not sure where I stand. I went ahead and applied for the position a few days ago (Tuesday, and I’m writing you on a Friday). It’s a small organization, so I suppose I expected a speedy reply. They are looking for someone to start by the first of November, so my understanding is they want a fast process. My plan is to not contact them about the position unless they respond first, but does anyone have any advice for what I should expect or how to proceed? This is an organization that I really love – the staff and the mission (that’s why I’ve done free work for them in the past!), so I don’t want to have a stranded relationship. But, I’m also feeling really disappointed already because my hopes were really high a week ago. Any thoughts?

    1. AMPG*

      It sounds like the supervisor may have gotten ahead of herself and realized that she didn’t actually have the authority to more or less promise you the position. I’d hang back and treat this as any other application.

  165. Pudgy Patty*

    Where do all the women go?

    One of the things that worries me about being in digital marketing is that by being in my mid-30s, I am a dinosaur in the field. When I look around, I hardly see any women over 40. My question is — where do they all go?

    As a manager-level employee, this is the farthest I want to go in my career. I simply do not want the responsibility of someone in leadership. I already feel old because I hate social media (despite being in charge of it) and still can’t understand how Snapchat works. I’m really good with data, which is probably the only reason people still value me, but I feel like I’m less and less in touch with this business.

    So where does someone like me go? I’m not ambitious, and have no desire to be in charge. Is there work for women over 40? If so, what are they doing? I am genuinely concerned I already need to be planning a career change ASAP.

    1. Essie*

      If you’re good with data, you can be good with metadata, and marketing thrives on that! What about going into analytics?

    2. FormerOP*

      I made a career change from marketing to something else a couple years ago (I am an “old” millenial). Partially it was because I didn’t like social media. Since you don’t want a more senior role, I would suggest moving to a different organization to get some perspective. I did not realize how hard it would be to make a career change, and I also did not think about the potential financial ramifications. I do not regret the change, but I probably should have planned it better. Another thought is to dip your toe into different fields through volunteering. Volunteer match is a good place to start.

      1. nonegiven*

        I just found a TV series called Younger. A 40yo gets hit on in a bar, she tells the guys he’s too young for her. He says we have to be close to the same age 26, 27? She’s been having trouble getting a job after a break up so she tries it again by fudging her age. She has to look up how to Tweet, etc.

    3. Manders*

      I’m a 28-year-old woman in digital marketing and I worry about this. I have met women much older than me at conferences, so I know they’re out there. I do wonder whether this career path will still be possible if I choose to have a child–I know a handful of women who’ve managed it, but it sounds very stressful and I doubt I’ll ever have benefits like paid maternity leave if I stay in this field.

      I’m not in social media and I like working with data, which helps. I don’t really get Snapchat either and I don’t understand how companies are making it work on sites like Instagram and Tumblr at all.

  166. k.k*

    A mini vent/opportunity to commiserate:
    I’m job hunting and am in a total gung-ho, ready to write some cover letters, let’s do this! mood. And there is nothing to apply to. I check the listings daily and have already applied to the ones that I can, and have simply reached the end of what’s there right now. No amount of hitting refresh is going to magically make a more listings appear. I’m confident that I’ve checked thoroughly and don’t feel like I’m missing anything, I’m just annoyed that this burst of energy isn’t being put to good use today.

    1. Tassie Tiger*

      Aw! How frustrating! :(
      Could you channel the energy into organizing information you already have? I don’t know if you have a little pocketbook/Word document, for instance, where you have a list of the jobs you’re applying to and the current status?

      Or, could you switch your energy to “research mode” and learn more about companies you’d like to work for it you find an opening soon?

  167. Someone else*

    I have a question for any linguists out there, and a more general question for all. I have one coworker who almost always communicates in future tense. I find this very frustrating primarily because it is unclear.
    For example, CW might say “Would you be able to paint the teapots Friday?”
    And this has on different occasions meant anything from:
    “Please paint the teapots Friday.”
    “Do you have time to paint the teapots Friday?”
    “I’m supposed to be painting teapots Friday, but can you do it for me instead?”
    “Do you know how to paint the teapots that are due on Friday?”
    “Are you an appropriate person to ask to paint the teapots on Friday? (if not, who is)”
    And probably a bunch of other things in between, but because of the way it’s asked always results in additional clarification/discussion needed.

    So, for the linguists: I’m wondering if there might be any regionalism in play, such that what CW is doing is very common and just unknown to me. And for everyone else I’m wondering: Am I jerk/snob for being so irked by this? And do you have any suggestions or scripts for how I might either get this person to be more specific in general, or if I’m the unreasonable one, advice for getting over this? I think this phrasing might be my “eating crackers” if I understand that analogy correctly.

    1. Morning Glory*

      I am not sure this really is a tense problem – but out of curiosity, are you (or your coworker) ESL?

      CW’s phrasing seems pretty appropriate for all of those things because it seems the root reasons for communication are

      1. that the teapots need to be painted Friday
      2. that CW would like you to be the one to do it.

      Given those, “Would you be able to paint the teapots Friday?” makes the most sense to ask, and then you could respond by saying “I don’t know how” or “I don’t have time” or “Mary-Sue is actually responsible for painting the teapots,” etc.

      Unless there is some context I am missing?

      1. Someone else*

        Neither are ESL. I guess the context that might be missing is, for example, to me there is a clear difference between “Do it” and “Do you have time to do it”. The former is more urgent. If I really couldn’t I might still push back, but with the way I’m being asked, I can’t tell if it’s a directive “must do” or a genuine question. The person doesn’t say that, or give me the rest of the context. I think that might be my issue with the phrasing. And just to be clear, it’s not just that they using this phrasing to mean all of those possible things. It’s that they ALWAYS use this phrasing, regardless of which of those things they mean. So I guess my problem is I want more specifics and I’m irked I have to ask for them every time? I don’t get a clear sense of urgency or lack thereof from the way I’m being asked.

        1. Someone else*

          Also I didn’t mean to imply it’s a tense problem, per se. I only mentioned it because I was trying to describe the behaviour. Not that it’s a wrong way to phrase anything, just that it’s an unusually specific pattern I’ve only ever encountered from this one person, that they always use that construction (as opposed to something more specific, like in my second list).

    2. Havarti*

      This almost sounds like Ask vs. Guess culture in a way. I don’t know where you or your coworker are from. Yes, it is annoying. Unfortunately, a lot of people do communicate in an unclear fashion to the point I just consider asking follow-up questions part of my job. You can try playing the “I get confused easily – can you help me by providing additional details up front?” card so they’re less likely to be offended. Otherwise, just pretend you’re a journalist asking who, what, where, why, and how.

    3. fposte*

      I’m with Morning Glory–this seems pretty normal phrasing to me. I would be comfortable with responses ranging from “Sorry, I’m too backed up” to “Sure, no problem” to “I’ve never trained on those–I think you need to talk to Lucinda.”

    4. paul*

      I’m not a linguist but the first two seem perfectly normal to me and the other’s aren’t that strange sounding.

    5. nep*

      This sounds like poor communication, plain and simple. Could you ask the person to be more concise — even if just clarifying in the moment, case by case?

    6. Traveling Teacher*

      I agree with the ask v guess culture comment. Also, any chance that this is a woman asking? The “would you be able to…” is pretty much a dead giveaway to me, but you never know for sure. She’s using this type of language poorly, though (I say this as a woman who has had to train this type of ask out of herself!), and I’d say that it would be helpful to address it with her directly.

      If she comes from deep guess-culture, like me, she was socialized to believe that one should never directly ask for what you truly want/need (that would be rude and demanding!), just expect others to intuit it for you! I’d say to bring up the confusion caused by the general question and ask if she can make her requests as direct and specific as possible. With examples!

  168. meifang*

    I’ve been applying for jobs for about two months now after relocating for my husband’s PhD. I’ve worked as an public school teacher for the past 5 years but I want to get into a higher education administrative job. The university in this city employs about 40% of the population but it’s notoriously hard to get your foot in the door. However, once you’re in a permanent position you’re pretty much set.

    Up until now I’d applied for about 25 jobs so far and had one interview. This week I got two interview offers! Now I’m at a conundrum: I feel very confident about Job A and I think I’m close to an offer. I got called in for a final interview and a tour of the office early next week. My interview for Job B is later next week but I’m only at the first round. Both jobs look great in terms of responsibilities, but Job A is a temp position with no possibility of becoming permanent. I would gladly take it and gain the experience and connections, but I want to hold off until I hear back from Job B on their hiring decision (which likely won’t be for another two weeks or so).

    Any suggestions on how talk with Job A about the situation if they give me an offer? They want to finish hiring by early next week and start a candidate ASAP. I certainly don’t want to appear uninterested or burn bridges, but Job B is definitely the better option and I want to see it through before making any decisions.

    Thank you so much for any help!

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I believe Alison says that in these cases, if JobA offers you a job, you can ask for a few days to think about it. Then you can go to JobB and let them know what is going on and see if you can get a time frame for when a decision is being made. Maybe if JobA doesn’t last that long, JobB will wait for you. Good Luck.

    3. Sualah*

      If Job A is a temp with no chance of being permanent, they can’t be surprised if someone would leave if they got a permanent offer.

      Also, how temporary is temporary? If it’ll take (at least) two weeks to hear from Job B, then Job B lets you give two weeks notice, I think that could be more than most temp jobs would expect.

      1. meifang*

        Job A is seasonal and goes from October until the beginning of January. I’m a little worried about the timeline for Job B because based on some informational interviews, there’s usually three rounds of interviews for permanent positions. So it’ll likely be a minimum of two weeks after my first interview if I got an offer from Job B. Things are also a little tricky because Job A and Job B are actually in adjacent departments and have overlapping staff, so I want to stay on very good terms with everyone.

        To complicate things, I actually just got invited to interview for another position, so now there’s a Job C. It’s basically the same as A (temp, seasonal, no possibility of becoming permanent but great experience and networking).

        I think I’ll just listen to Allison/Cajun2Core and be very transparent with A, B, and C. Hopefully one or more will come through.

        Thanks for all the replies!

  169. Grumpyguts*

    Ugh. I’ve been set up to fail at my job. I’m looking for a new one, but the market is still tight.

    I was hired by the CEO to work on”special projects.” I was temping for her and she wanted me to stay because I have a million skills and am cheap. So that was cool, until it became clear that she had zero interest in managing me, or even speaking to me. So I formed relationships with the department directors and got work from them – which initially annoyed the CEO, but she accepted it eventually. Now one of the directors wants me to work for her department, but the CEO is against it. No real reason.

    I was denied a performance review. Everyone else had theirs. I was even made to sit through several hours-long staff meetings about our upcoming performance reviews.

    I often have no work to do. There is a ton of work to be done. I’m either not allowed to do it, turn around time is slow, or a manager won’t delegate it. In my spare time I work on new software skills, look for new projects, or do little self-starter tasks like making new icons for our newsletter. I’ve now been informed that the company (which is small; fewer than 15 people) is installing intensive monitoring software on our computers, so I will no longer be able to research new skills in my spare time. I’m also not allowed to use my phone, have a paper notebook, or keep anything on my desk (others are). If I work part time or volunteer for another org I’m supposed to get permission (!!!) as my boss doesn’t want me to be “too tired.”

    Im so frustrated! I try to talk to my boss but get nothing. She won’t even smile at me or say hello when she comes in the office, but she greets the others. Her assistant has been giving me the silent treatment as well and I don’t think I can complain about that, since the CEO does it too.

    Arh. Come on, new job!

  170. Christiana*

    Hi everyone.

    So several weeks ago, I accepted a part-time, hourly role as a writer for a prominent financial company in my area. They delayed my start date by a couple weeks and i’m supposed to start on monday. the same day i accepted that, i ended up on a phone interview for a full-time but long term contract for a really exciting role. i had a few more interviews and today i got the offer for the full-time contract. the hourly rate is also much better. i was supposed to go in to the part-time place monday. my recruiter for part-time place knew i was interviewing. i’m going to accept the full-time place but am i fully burning bridges? what do i say to lessen the blow? i really need the extra money asap.

    1. fposte*

      While it’ll depend on the situation, the general rule is that full-time beats part-time, and most part-time employers understand that.

  171. August*

    I recently started a one-year fellowship with a small nonprofit, and lately my boss is…exhausting. The nonprofit is his brainchild, and I am his only direct supervisee. As a result, he has a tendency to get personally offended whenever I (or the local intern, or other employees) suggest changes to initiatives or different approaches to projects. The fellowship is really strict about the kind of duties I’m allowed to perform, to the point where the entire project can be canceled if I go outside those requirements. I recently told my supervisor I couldn’t work on a certain project because it violated my fellowship requirements. He goes on to insist that his last fellow did it, and that he thought it was extremely important, etc. etc. etc. I tried to diplomatically push back, and it all ended with him huffily dismissing the whole thing. He’s been acting stiff and cold towards me ever since.

    Normally my supervisor is an extremely kind man (he offered to let me live with him when I first came to the city, and gave me $50 for my birthday) but he’s extremely stubborn, and gets visibly disappointed/offended when things don’t go his way. Since we’re going to be working really closely together for the year, I try to be really open about what I can/can’t do and my dedication to the work, but I also refuse to get bulldozed over like his last fellow, whose struggles with him last year are well-known throughout the organization. Does anybody have any tips for dealing with personality conflicts like this?

    1. Anony McAnonface*

      Have you tried framing it not that it would cause YOU problems, but that it would cause HIM problems. As you said, “the entire project can be canceled if I go outside those requirements.” Have you tried saying that to him?

      1. August*

        I have! In conversations where I’ve had to go against what he wants, I’ve stressed that it could have negative affects on the project and tried to offer up compromises (i.e. “I’ll do THIS, which is allowable under the fellowship and is in line with what you want!”), but then he’s made huffy little comments like “well, if that’s what you and [fellowship coordinator] think is best…”

          1. Anony McAnonface*

            Wow. What a pain. When people get shirty with me like that, I usually try to fight ice with fire and act like I haven’t noticed and Nice them into submission. But honestly, that sounds un-fun.

  172. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    If Teapot Boss states s/he prefers to go through Apple Paltrow (for Apple to check coworker Bean’s progress) instead of talk directly with Bean, what does that say about coworker Bean (unhypothetically speaking)….? Seems oddly roundabout. Help me read between the lines? (For the record, I’m Apple in this situation). Teapot Boss also just assigned me a project management project. More management than day-to-day coordinating.

    1. diaphanous*

      Honestly I think it says more about Teapot Boss than it does about Bean. There could be interpersonal issues; maybe Boss is respecting a strange hierarchy; maybe Boss wants you to practice giving feedback and managing in a low stakes way. It sounds like you’re on good terms with Boss. Why not just ask? Or talk to Bean a little bit and decide for yourself.

  173. Nacho*

    Anyone have any tips dealing with foreign coworkers? I work in a call center, and part of my job is calling/delivering written instructions to agents in our Asian and European offices. Technically, every employee in the company is supposed to be fluent in English, so people like me can communicate with them, and so they can help out with the English calls that make up most of our workload. In practice, I’m finding a lot of them don’t really have the best grasp of English. For instance, if I tell a hundred agents to tell a hundred guests that the gym in their hotel is going to be closed during their stay, at least one or two are going to cancel the whole reservation instead because they didn’t understand me.

    Is there anything I can do to preempt agents from misunderstanding my plans?

    1. AMPG*

      Honestly, that sounds like someone who doesn’t meet the basic job requirements. But if you want to be more flexible on English fluency, can you run instructions through a local manager who can relay them in the agents’ native language?

    2. katamia*

      It’s not clear from your post whether all instructions are being delivered both through calls and through written instruction or if some are only one of the two. If the latter is the case, is there some way you could ensure that ALL communication is, at bare minimum, written? That can help to cut down on the misunderstandings because people can refer back to it later in a way that they can’t when the instructions are just spoken. (If it is just a call, you can try following up with an email confirming what you’ve discussed–I’ve seen that mentioned here on AAM a few times.)

      Also I agree with AMPG that it sounds like they don’t meet the basic job requirements.

      1. Morning Glory*

        +1 iwriting instructions may not be possible in a call center, but if they are, it’s much better for this. It will allow the agents to read and reread if necessary, rather than try to comprehend you at the speed of natural speech.

        Also, that sounds like a 1-2% error rate – I am curious how that would compare with telling 100 native English speakers the same instructions? I am also curious if there is a way to recognize patterns on which agents will be most likely to misunderstand you, and then concentrate any solutions (like asking them to repeat instructions, etc.) on only the agents who need it?

    3. Epsilon Delta*

      When I want to be very clearly understood, I will start off my email with a one or two sentence summary. I will label it as “Question: (blah blah blah)” or “Action Item: (do the thing)”. It will be in bold, possibly in a bright color. I will also try to anticipate any confusions and clarifications and call those out too after the summary. “Note: this does not mean….” Have you tried something like that?

      1. Nacho*

        That’s a good idea, thanks. A quick summary (maybe in bold) on top of all of my plans would probably help a lot.

    4. Quaggaquagga*

      A good way to check comprehension is to have the person repeat the information back to you. You can ask them questions like “So how will you communicate this to guests?” or “What will you say if someone asks you a question about this?” etc.

  174. Career Ladder*

    Anyone want to help me come up with a new job title?

    I’m the Director of Development for a mid-sized non-profit, and I’m being promoted into a newly-created position. As part of this, I’ll be supervising our IT department (I know it’s weird, but we’re management-light and I’m honestly in the best position to do it) and our one-person Marketing and Communications team. I’ll also probably be tasked with some big-picture thinking as needed. My CEO and I have been brainstorming, and the best we’ve come up with so far is “Vice President of Strategic Planning, Development, and Communications.” This seems long and unwieldy to me. Anyone have a better suggestion?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      This sounds like a relatively standard Vice President of Advancement role (with the extra fun of managing IT). “Advancement” covers development and communications, and the level (VP) suggests the high-level, big-picture thinking — that should be common to all jobs of that level, not an extra responsibility. Does that work?

      1. Career Ladder*

        Hmmm…this could work. It’s definitely punchier. But Google suggests that “Advancement” often refers to high education roles, and I’m not in that field. Would that be confusing?

    2. H.C.*

      “External Affairs” typically encapsulates development & marketing/communication roles; “VP of Strategic Planning & External Affairs” is still lengthy but not jarringly unwieldy. If you want you can even shorten “Strategic Planning” to “Strategy”

      1. Career Ladder*

        This might work, too – we had discussed “Community Relations,” but that implies a type of community engagement that I won’t be doing. “External Affairs” seems to describe it well.

    3. Essie*

      We have a VP of Business Excellence. She handles the marketing and comm sides you mentioned, plus she also does community outreach and a bit of recruitment/continuing education.

  175. Mark*

    I’m returning to work from a 3 week vacation on Monday, during which time I travelled to Australia. On the third day of my trip, I heard from my family that my grandfather had passed away – it was not unexpected, as he had a long battle with an illness. Because of the distance, and fact that it was just the beginning of my trip, my family and I discussed that I didn’t need to come home early for the funeral.

    My work offers 3 paid bereavement days for the death of extended family. When I return to work on Monday, would I be out of line to request that 3 of my vacation days be substituted with the 3 bereavement days, so I essentially get 3 more days added to my current vacation “budget”?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I would be taken aback if an employee asked for this, although I understand that it is a more common practice elsewhere in the world. (I’m aware of European colleagues who are allowed to substitute sick days for vacation days if they get sick while on vacation, but that’s unheard of in my experience.)

      Vacation days are intended for what you use them for: a planned break from work. Bereavement days are intended to allow you to set work aside to cope with a loss emotionally, but also logistically — traveling for a funeral, handling an estate, etc.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I should have started by saying this: I am so sorry for your loss! It must have been especially hard to cope with that while you were traveling away from your family. I’m terribly sorry for jumping right in to a critical response to your question.

    3. Menacia*

      If you had attended the funeral during your vacation I would say yes, since that is what those days are reserved for…but in your case, I would say it’s probably not a good thing to do. Sorry for your loss.

    4. Friday*

      I’m very sorry for your loss. Bereavement is usually for arranging/attending death-related activities, which is why it’s so short a time period (3-5 days seems to be the norm) when obviously, the process of working through grief and loss can extend much longer. Since you weren’t a part of arranging or attending the funeral, it would not be in good form to use bereavement as part of your vacation.

    5. AMPG*

      Condolences on your loss.

      I once substituted a bereavement day for a planned vacation day when my grandfather passed while I was on vacation. The difference is that I DID cut my trip short and flew to my hometown for the funeral. I also ended up being out an extra day due to the travel arrangements (so I took two out of the three allotted bereavement days). Since I hadn’t actually gone on the whole vacation and had been out for longer than expected, it made some sense. In your case, you didn’t change your plans in any way, so I don’t think you can claim those days in good conscience.

  176. Confused*

    I was just at a work conference in another state when I received a job offer. I will very likely be accepting this offer, but I currently work in a very toxic environment so I don’t think they will take my 2 week notice well. I am worried that they might try to get out of reimbursing me for my expenses on this work trip. If they do, is there any kind of action I can take to get them to reimburse me?

  177. zora*

    Shoot, I meant to post earlier. But I have a question about those giant flip charts used for meetings.

    How do you carry yours around?? Has anyone found a not-super-awkward-and-clumsy way to carry these things to and from meetings?

    My coworkers sometimes have to pack them up and take them to meetings in other cities, so it means getting them in and out of buildings and cars along with luggage and other stuff they are trying to carry. I left one in it’s shipping box this time so the chart would stay neat, but it was still unwieldy to carry it in and out of buildings and needed 2 hands. Any brilliant solutions from the hive mind?

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Oh man, if you get any great solutions I’d love to hear them. They’re the worst. And SO expensive. Ugh.

    3. Emi.*

      What about a big portfolio (like artists use) so you have handles? It’s still a pain but it might be less of a pain.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      Maybe a bag like what art students use?

      Not an art student, don’t know what those are called. Portfolio bags…?

        1. zora*

          Omg I completely forgot about those!! Thanks, folks! Looking for the cheapest one I can find, because my company doesn’t like to spend a lot on stuff like this, but a really basic one with handles should really help! A handle makes it easier to carry than just a giant box.

          1. Wendy Darling*

            Yeah they’re great for carrying bulky flat things! They seem to run $10-20 depending on size, and the cheap cardboard ones are totally sufficient unless you’re planning to be out in pouring rain. (And if there is pouring rain, we always just covered ours with a garbage bag.)

  178. Anne*

    Hey, I need insights. I am a visual merchandiser (mannequins, window displays etc.) and interested in digital marketing. Is it weird to have both visual merchandaising and digital marketing work samples in the same portfolio (in their own menu bars)? Are the fields are too different?

    1. Chaordic One*

      It doesn’t sound weird to me. I would think that you could make the connection between the two fields if you included a few transitional pieces, such as digital marketing samples that are similar to the visual merchandising you did, and then focus on the digital marketing work samples as that’s the kind of job you’re looking for.

  179. Melly*

    Just want to benchmark a little on this. Do your employers make you share rooms on conference trips? I have a boss here who is weirdly hierarchical and there’s a core group of us who go to our network’s annual conference without question. Then there are some other employees who are more “junior” I guess, whose attendance is not guaranteed, and they are often told they can go but should find someone to share a room with. This puts those of us with a room in a weird spot. This year one of them is staying with her sister in the conference city, and there’s one more who needs a roommate. For me, spending 12 hours a day at a conference and then sharing a room with a coworker is just a nope, so I’m praying she doesn’t ask me. Do other places make you share rooms on business travel?

    1. Anon for This*

      Yes. Most of the colleagues that I work with share rooms for the major national conference(s) a year. It means more people can attend. I know some people who put 3-4 people to a room, so that students, fellows, and residents have the opportunity to attend a few key conferences.

    2. De Minimis*

      Only when we have events in New York City, which rarely happens. And we’re a nonprofit, so I think we’d tend to be a little more austere than other employers.

      I think that the cost of lodging in NYC is so high that single rooms would probably be in violation of our funding agreements. We have one large conference a year that is tied to another organization’s conference, and we have to have our meeting wherever they have theirs. Thankfully, NYC is not on their schedule for the next few years at least.

    3. Jade*

      This question has been asked a lot on AAM, and the answer is always “Yes it happens, but it’s a crappy practice, and employers should do what they can to avoid making people share rooms.”

      1. fposte*

        I don’t think that’s the consensus at all–in fact, I think there’s a divide (related to people’s fields) between the people who find it horrific and those who’re accustomed to it as a norm.

    4. Rincat*

      I work at a large public university, and I have never been asked to share a room, and I’ve never heard of any of my colleagues having to do that, either. Now there may be some departments that do require it – there are a few departments that are either just not big money makers so they don’t have a lot of funds, or they have super cheap management (one of my work friends is in a super cheap department…and they are SUPER CHEAP), but it seems like the norm at my university is no room sharing. And thank god for that, because I would rather pay out of pocket than have to share a room with someone who is not like my immediate family (even then…). However we don’t go to a lot of conferences on a whole – I go to maybe one a year, and it’s really only the top level deans, chairs, VPs, etc., that do a lot of business travel, so perhaps they figure not enough of us peons do business travel to require us to get shared rooms.

    5. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      Never, I find it horrific and would push back. But, as it has been noted, it is the norm in some industries. I just think that if we expect professional boundaries, that should include not sleeping in the same room.

    6. Kathenus*

      While it’s not ideal, yes, I do ask employees to have a roommate at conferences – and I do so myself although I do not have to. The reason is that I have such a small professional development budget for my team that if I don’t do this it limits how many people can get funding each year. If someone has a specific reason that they can’t or want to request an exception, I’m very open to it. If they can’t find a roommate, say no one else of their gender is looking for a roommate, then that’s an exception as well. Since in my whole early career I usually had one or more roommates either due to having to pay for conferences myself or due to having only partial funding, I’m used to it, as are many in my field. In a perfect world it wouldn’t be needed, but I can’t control my limited funding for this, so I try to stretch it as far as I can, within reason.

        1. Kathenus*

          Sure, that’s one option, and some people would prefer that. I’ve chosen the roommate option to allow more people opportunities. Neither are right or wrong, both approaches have their pros and cons. One thing to be clear is that the conferences I’m talking about are optional, and things that the employees request to do, not things that they are assigned or required to attend.

    7. Specialk9*

      F$@# no. I work for a mega-corp, and previously did consulting. No way. That’s something non-profits pull, but it’s deciding to do something deeply unprofessional in order to save money.

  180. Me----Blargh and Eek!*

    Four admin applications out and not a peep from any one of them. I’ve been editing and re-editing the story collection and have put all my info into Amazon (whyyyy) and am sitting here struggling to write sales copy for it and I’m panicking. (Note to self: do not read articles about someone else’s success because their stuff always sounds way better.)

    My dental issue turned out to be nothing bad, just a pocket of inflammation we caught before it turned into a full-blown problem. So, cheaper than I expected. Now jerkbrain is using that as an excuse to bail (You don’t need the money now you don’t need it your stories suck nobody will buy them hahahaha who do you think you are). A writer I like and follow on Twitter wrote a blog post about circumventing the publishing process with selfies (mostly pointing out that even if you do this, there are no shortcuts), and he was encouraging, but I’m CHICKEN BAWK BAWK BAWK.

    I could just make a damn .mobi and ePub (I can use Calibre to make them for free) and/or PDF and sell it through my blog , but I’m not a marketer and I don’t want to use Gumroad because I’ve heard some nasty things about it. And PayPal of course has fees, though they have a micropayment fee that’s pretty low (in addition to 2.7% of the amount).

    Royalties on Amazon are too small for this tiny thing. I wanted to donate a percentage of profits to hurricane relief , but the donation I already made to One America Appeal (all five living former presidents started a fundraiser) is probably more than I would make. Would you pay $1.99 for a 20K-word ebook? I don’t know that I would!

    Why can’t I just write books and have somebody else publish them?! That’s all I ever wanted! *panic panic panic panic panic*

    Okay, I’m done whining (for now). LOL

    1. Manders*

      Oh wow, I’ve only heard good things about Gumroad. I’ll definitely have to do some more looking into that.

      I feel you on the difficulty of writing sales copy for your own work. I put my writing online for free, and I STILL worry that I’m being too pushy by trying to market it and no one will want to read it. So I think there’s no price point at which you won’t have to push through a little bit of anxiety about marketing.

      Have you read Story Hospital? I really like that site’s advice about putting your work out there without turning into a nervous wreck.

    2. LCL*

      I wouldn’t pay 1.99 for an ebook from a name writer. The big names work always ends up being collected and published. I would certainly pay that for an ebook from someone I knew that was trying to get published. I’d pay 4.99 for that. I hate ebooks and don’t normally buy them but I would make an exception for a new writer. Like you.

    3. nep*

      Glad to hear dental problem was not as bad as thought. What a relief.
      Slay the negative voice. Slay the chicken.
      Keep us posted.

      1. nep*

        I hear you on that. It’s a shitty feeling. But anyone who’s ever gotten published has had to put themselves on the line like that. (Coming from someone who’s afraid to let even a friend read things she’s written and would like to develop…)

    5. Kiwi*

      Yep, I’ll pay that much. Sounds like a fair price for 20K words, maybe even on the low side.

      Just do it! You’ll feel so much better when you have.

    6. Specialk9*

      Jedi hugs on the applications and the writing. For the writing, in 20 years will you most regret action or inaction?

      And as to permanently tarnishing your brand if today’s offering isn’t perfect, pishposh.
      Success in writing has to involve launching your boats bravely into the lake – boats are sad sitting on a shelf.

      And even if it’s not as good as it will be one day, so what? For my favorite writers, I actually really appreciate reading early works so I can see the development. It’s inspiring, because it reminds me how their glorious books come from a lot of inglorious hard work, craftsmanship, and editing.

      Do it!

      1. Laura*

        Honestly, a short story collection is a terribly hard sell even from a well-known writer. Publishers hate them for that reason. It’s always much better if they’re linked in some way. The reputational issue is non-existent. You can always pull the book and bad reviews will vanish with it. And if you write one someone wants to publish, they’ll publish it. They may make you pull the book themselves, but that will be it.

        This really baffled me, can you explain? “A writer I like and follow on Twitter wrote a blog post about circumventing the publishing process with selfies”

    7. Traveling Teacher*

      Do it! Everyone has to start somewhere! Completely fair price point. And, I love taking a mini-chance on self-published works and being pleasantly surprised if I really love it, knowing that I’ve supported a writer’s dream in a small way in either case.

      Even if your dental issue wasn’t bad (and hooray for that!) just consider this to be your rainy day fund. Or even your mad money fund. :)

  181. Newsie*

    A question for the wise commentariat – I’ve worked at Company A for 10 years. I interviewed at Company B about 6 months ago, and told them my reason for looking outside the company was that I needed a change of scene. Got the job offer, was fully intent upon leaving, but Company A offered me a 10% raise, a title raise that came with a doubling of bonus, training I’d been begging for for years, and the opportunity to change what I did on a day to day basis.

    I know that Alison says don’t take a counter, because the issues don’t change, but a new boss had come in about a week or two before I had my interview at Company B, so I believed that she could truly change the issues. She did – things got worse. I got the raises, but the training became less about me learning something new and more about me becoming a frequent backup that requires me to flip my hours on the drop of a dime. There’s no change of what I do otherwise, and there’s no such change in the near future. I’m exhausted and overworked, and on top of everything, morale at my department has essentially bottomed out. In short, I am at the bottom of a well.

    Just last week, a friend who works at Company B recommended I apply for a totally different position in a different department there. It sounded like an interesting opportunity, so I applied, and the recruiter wants to set up a phone screen. She’s one of the many recruiters I spoke to for position 1. On the off-chance that she remembers me, how can I phrase why I’m looking without saying, “my boss sucks and she’s not going to change?” I thought maybe I’d say something about position 2 sounding like an opportunity to expand the experience I have now in a new area of our business, i.e., “When Arya recommended I apply for the position in emergency all-chocolate teapot production, I was so interested — I’ve been making white chocolate teapots under deadline for years now, and I’d really love to take that experience to shift gears a little bit.” It’s true, but I feel like that sounds weak – is there a better way to phrase it or to explain?

    Thanks all!

    1. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      You don’t have to make it about why you’re leaving. If they ask, you can say that you had a change in management, and after giving it a shot, it’s really not a good fit, so you’re looking for new opportunities. Until they ask, though, make it about what’s so exciting at emergency all-chocolate teapot production.

  182. Tassie Tiger*

    Hello all!
    I’m under a lot of work-related pressure and handling it as gracefully as I can. After three years in my food service job, I’m feeling I need to get out. It’s getting toxic, just a whiff, but people are starting to bubble under the pressures of not-fantastic communication patterns and non-awesome implementations.

    I have a call-back interview tomorrow for a new job as a cake froster in a bakery. The pay is good, commute amazing, and atmosphere looks like the combination of intense, then relaxed downtime that keeps my brain stimulated. Owner also chatted to me about possible promotion paths, I feel I could grow there.

    But…I’m choking at the last minute. Do I really want to leave three years worth of memories, good and bad, and the possibilities of growth at my current job that I’ve been fighting so hard for?

    With all the pressure, (and me admittedly having lifelong battles with mood disorders,) I came clean to my boss today and told him about the second interview tomorrow–basically looking for one last straw of hope that I could make it work. I don’t have it clear in my mind what I’d say if I was offered the job. I feel like I’m in a race against time to process a mountain of information. (I also have a processing information disorder.)

    Short story, it wasn’t fair to my boss to dump that on him–and he and I both got frustrated at each other in a spectacular display of talking past each other and wanting desperately to be heard and understood, but not able to hear and understand the other person.

    Tomorrow is the second hands-on interview, as I mentioned, and then Sunday is the day I get to learn a task I’ve been aiming to get for two years. I’m happy to finally try this task, exhausted that it took two years of working and asking, frustrated and bitter that approximately ten to fifteen people got that task ahead of me in those two years–people who’d been employed there a fraction of my time.

    I am under so much pressure I’ve emotionally shut down at this point…a lot of my energy is going also into long-term healing for a back injury I sustained at work a year ago.

    Not much else I know to say…advice appreciated, but please don’t feel pressured…just being able to get it off my chest helped.

    -Tass

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Going to an interview doesn’t obligate you to accept the job if they offer.

      You should go.

    2. KR*

      I was in a position for six years that I was underpaid in and that should have been full time. I kept mentioning that the small yearly raises weren’t really in line with base pay for what I was doing and that there wasn’t enough time for me to do all that needed to be done, and saying between the lines that I needed more than a part time job if I was going to stay in that role long term, and my manager still dragged his feet. Almost as soon as I have my notice (to move across the country) I got a 60ish% raise and an offer for not only full time, but vacation comparable to if I had been full time for a couple years which is very unusual for the field. I felt so bad because it was what I had wanted all along, the pay was amazing, I had a lot of institutional knowledge about the job, and my manager depended on me. I had to remind myself that it was too late, and I had given them ample chances and signals that I was getting frustrated and the job wasn’t working for me. Take the new job if you get it and you think you would like it. You’ve been fighting for years to get to do a new task that you should have been able to do ages ago, but the new manager is already discussing promotion opportunities with you. Please, I urge you, if you have the interview and you think you would like the job, please take it.

    3. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      Tass, don’t base your decision off of one incident (unless you have one pretty defining incident, and if that happens, you’ll know.) Go to the interview, consider what they have to offer, and consider where you want your career to go. Don’t avoid a new opportunity because you may be sad about not seeing your coworkers again. You’ll develop new working relationships, and you’ll have a broader variety of people to influence you professionally. I’m not saying you should necessarily take it, but you should consider it!

    4. Specialk9*

      Really common to want to leave, have a door open, and second guess whether you should walk through the door. If you really liked the sound of the new job, don’t let that ‘aah! change, potential failure, but nostalgia’ argument sabotage you. It’s so human but it’s also full of lies. Change is scary, but it’s so good for us.

  183. Startup Hell Lisa*

    I know a few of you gave me advice on my disappearing employee recently when I was considering whether to call police for a welfare check.

    Just a sad update – she never did come back and ended up resigning for health reasons. She qualified for disability leave but chose not to take it.

  184. FemaleProgrammer*

    I’m working on my resume. I’ve worked for a long time at a company where titles weren’t all that important as far as I could tell, so I didn’t pay a lot of attention to them. Now that I go over my yearly reviews, I notice that some of my official titles have changed even though my tasks didn’t really seem to. Some reviews don’t even mention the titles. I’ve asked HR for my titles over the years, and they don’t have them.

    I’m assuming that I should show the exact titles even when they are basically the same thing and make the list longer (and in my opinion not particularly clearer). Does that sound right? Still not too sure what to do when I don’t know the titles.

    1. CAA*

      I’m assuming you mean that your title kind of randomly changed from Developer to Programmer to Software Engineer, or whatever your manager felt like putting on your reviews? If that’s it, then no, don’t list each one separately on your resume. Just pick one “family”, either the most recent one or the first one, and stick with that. For something like this, you only need separate titles to show advancement through the ranks. So Junior Software Engineer, Associate Software Engineer, Senior Sotware Engineer …

      1. FemaleProgrammer*

        Mostly. One change looked like a demotion (from Sr. to no Sr. on the title), but I was never told I was demoted, and I think this was just a flattening out of titles.

        1. CAA*

          Yeah, this definitely sounds like the kind of randomness you don’t need to put on your resume. If your HR people can’t even tell you what your title is, then you don’t have to worry about them contradicting you if anyone calls them for verification of employment.

    2. Girasol*

      I was told that the importance of accuracy in titles is to assure that if a potential employer checks references with your old company, they must find that the HR department confirms the exact titles in your application, else you might be considered to be lying in an application. If your HR doesn’t know your titles, that isn’t likely to be a problem.

    3. Specialk9*

      I had that kind of job. My positions and roles morphed all over, depending on project, but my title was a meaningless thing (eg Analyst 35). I checked with my managers, then had my business cards printed with my real role. (And new cards for new roles – though I was lazy and usually only bothered when I got a major new cert, then updated the title.)

  185. i wish it were a banana*

    Ok, I’m embarrassed to even type this, but here we go…

    I have a direct report who is sometimes, um, too happy to see me. I am relatively certain it is not a banana in his pocket.

    I don’t know if he’s aware of it or if it’s a medical issue or what. He is emotionally and operationally needy (which I’ve addressed very directly with him, as well as redirecting him to teapot EAP), but not otherwise inappropriate. And it’s not like I’m staring *there* but the,ah, condition is very evident when I’m seated and he’s standing at the door asking a question. For the record, aside from my skill with pivot tables, there is nothing particularly exciting about me.

    Friends, what would you do?

    1. CAA*

      I would completely ignore this. There is no possible way to discuss it without embarrassing you both, and there’s nothing he can do about it.

    2. Blue Anne*

      Oh gosh.

      I have to ask, though… you’re sitting at your desk, and he’s coming to the door to ask you a question? Why on earth is he coming to ask you a question while he has a boner? He doesn’t think he should imagine a pile of dead kittens or something to get rid of it first?

      Or is it, er, kicking in while he talks to you?

    3. KR*

      I have to agree with the advice to ignore it. It’s the only way. You could also perhaps have a phone call or something very pressing to do only when it appears perhaps? Like…
      You: “Well, that’s all for teapot spout design. I’ll see you at your 1:1 Thursday. ”
      Him: “Well, let me stand up and ask you a question with a boner and make you super uncomfortable.”
      You: “Fergus, I actually really have to call Melinda right now so bye!”
      I mean, he has to realize it’s happening. If not, maybe you abruptly telling him bye will signal to him, hey she looked uncomfortable that was wierd, oh look at that banana in my pants.

      Can I say the way you wrote in your question had me giggling the whole time

    5. Jade*

      My kneejerk reaction is that HR should have a talk with him because it’s the kind of thing that might really offend someone else. You don’t sound too fazed by it, but someone else who encounters this might find it super uncomfortable and maybe even construe it as sexual. If you have any clients/customers floating around the office, you especially don’t want them to see that. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt to talk to HR and see if they can gently inform him that people are noticing that.

      1. i wish it were a banana*

        Sadly, I am HR in this scenario.

        I have told people they smelled bad, lacked communication skills, had underpants showing, were being demoted/fired/laid off, needed to learn personal space, couldn’t bring a bird to work, and many, many other issues. I don’t usually struggle with difficult discussions. But this is too much, even for me…

        1. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

          Maybe phrase it as a problem with the pants? I noticed that your pants may not be fitting quite right, somehow there’s a bulge down there that looks like something I’m sure you don’t intend. I’m worried someone may misconstrue it as sexual, and I don’t want you to be in a situation where there’s a sexual harassment claim against you.

          I don’t know. It’s the best I’ve got. Every time you think you’ve conquered The Uncomfortable Conversation, there’s somehow a new hurdle.

        2. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

          Yikes! Maybe phrase it as something wrong with his pants? You noticed there’s something off with the fit of his pants and it creates a bulge down there. People may construe is as something sexual, and you certainly would never want to see him on the wrong side of a sexual harassment complaint, and so he really needs to go home right now and get it fixed.

          I don’t know. Every time you think you’ve conquered the Awkward Conversation dance, someone comes up with new steps.

          1. Specialk9*

            I don’t think I could actually say anything either. I think your only recourse is to keep your eyes at his neck or above, like the advice to men so they don’t stare at breasts.

            I had a HS asst basketball coach like this, minus the erection. He had a massive python in his pants, and didn’t wear tidy whities, so he *swung* in his loose basketball shorts. We were (mostly sheltered) teenage girls and had no idea how to handle this. As an adult I still don’t get why he was so casual about his schlong in that context.

            1. Observer*

              Different scenario, and something that he could easily have rectified. It’s a shame that no one told him off – No one could expect a bunch of HS to say something to him. And, honestly, I wonder if more wasn’t going on…

    6. LCL*

      Nothing. Extensive research (ahem mostly reading online) tells me this is an involuntary thing that sometimes happens. The person doesn’t have conscious control over it.

      1. Laura*

        I got absolutely hysterical at the refs to him being needy and then teapot spouts. If only it were a teapot factory! You’d have just the vocabulary to approach this in a delicate manner!

  187. mf*

    My boss’s birthday is coming up. I and some of his direct reports want to do something nice, maybe a surprise of some sort.

    Would love to hear any ideas from the peanut gallery here. ;) I’m thinking we might block his calendar with fake meetings and then surprise him with lunch instead.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Food is a pretty acceptable exception to the “no gifting up” rule, in my opinion, and I’m sure he’d like it.

    3. nep*

      That sounds like a fun idea for someone who’s into celebrating birthdays. Perhaps I’m extra sensitive here because I don’t observe mine. (I would dislike it if c0-workers did this for me.) Do you know the person well enough to know how he feels about birthdays? Not looking to be a downer here — it just comes to mind that this is something I’d consider.

  188. Jade*

    I reapplied for two jobs this week that I had interviewed for in the recent past. One job I was rejected for the first time around because I wasn’t available to start right away, and the second I withdrew from because they didn’t get back to me before I accepted a seasonal job elsewhere. Would it be out of line to email the hiring managers directly and tell them I’ve applied again and reiterate my interest? I don’t want to come off reeking of desperation (even though I am pretty desperate at this point…) or overstepping my boundaries.

    1. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      If you interviewed with that manager previously, then I don’t think it would be inappropriate to send them a SHORT email IN ADDITION to going through the regular interview process. Just say that you had applied before, your circumstances have changed and you are interested in again, you remember being excited about this one great thing when you interviewed before, and you will be submitting your application, hope you will consider it.

  189. TwoBodyProbs*

    Any academic couples out there? My partner is in the process of getting his phd but I’m getting interviews from places (university libraries) that aren’t close to him. I can’t seem to get hired at the universities nearby and we don’t plan on living in this area after he’s done with school.

    If I get offered one of these positions, I’d love to take it since they’re actually in my preferred field and a better area but then we’re long distance. Has anyone successfully navigated academia with a partner??

    1. Sam Carter*

      As a PhD student he is unlikely to persuade the university to even consider spousal hire. Of course you could look outside of your preferred field and maybe find something close by, but the modern reality is that even this doesn’t always work out. If this is a critical point in your career, considering long distance could be the best move. Long distance is difficult and just plain stinks, but it’s not a death sentence. Depending on the field, he may face a saturated job market post graduation. You having a stable career and salary will be critical at that time.

    2. Miss Ann Thrope*

      So I have a partner (and child) and while I’m in academia and he is not, his job is geographically limited. I can’t get a job in that area, so we live apart. We visit one another, skype twice a day and spend summers with him

    3. Traveling Teacher*

      Thinking about the sacrifices two partners in academia make simultaneously impresses and horrifies me. Not my own experience, but one of my favorite profs told us about how she got up at 4:30 am everyday and drove 1.5 hours to work, her spouse did the same in the opposite direction. That was the only way they could both be employed in their respective fields. They basically bought a house in a village at the exact driving-time midpoint and decided to make it work. Best of luck in your decision!

  190. Molly*

    What classes or training would you recommend to someone who wants to move into reception/admin assistant type positions? I have a strong customer service background, but I’ve been looking for work for 3 months and no bites. I want to do something to make me a stronger candidate since i have no direct experience in that area.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Microsoft Office – Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook. Those are pretty crucial programs for administrative assistants.

  191. strawberries and raspberries*

    One of my colleagues has brought up, on three separate occasions, that we should have a “roast” on birthdays. On all three occasions, I’ve said that a roast is not appropriate for a group of colleagues, and it’s especially not okay to save up all your insults for someone’s birthday to see what you can get away with at work. He keeps digging his heels in and telling me that I wouldn’t have to participate if I didn’t want to, but everyone else is friends outside of work and they’d all be fine with it. We’ve already had two issues in here of people not seeing where the line is and making fun of people behind their backs (once in a way that was borderline sexual harassment of someone) and then acting pissy when they’re caught and called out for it.

    1) I’m not crazy, right? A roast is not appropriate for work colleagues at a work event, even if it’s off-site?
    2) Is my coworker implying that they’re probably all making fun of me, since they’re all friends outside of work? (The other incident of teasing that was not the sexual harassment one involved someone sending this coworker a nasty meme making fun of me, which he opened right in front of me not realizing what it was, and everyone was read the riot act for it.)

    1. Stephanie (HR Manager)*

      1) You are not crazy. Even if they behave that way around each other outside of work, it is still inappropriate at work.
      2) I didn’t get that from what he said, though it’s possible. It’s a bit of a stretch to act on; I would just keep your eyes open.

    2. Ann O.*

      1) You are not crazy. Your work colleague is either out of step, or your workplace is on the verge of some toxic dynamics.

      2) It is possible your workplace is already over the edge into toxic dynamics based on this. I’m not sure what your role is and how closely connected to the group of friends of your work colleague, but hopefully you can float above their immaturity.

    3. Laura*

      Oh my God, I’m English and brutally sarcastic, surrounded by witty clever sarky friends, and we rip each other to shreds for our amusement. But this is for private time only, never at work. Abort!

  192. Karyn*

    Does anyone have any tips for staying focused while working at home?

    I work at home for myself, full-time. I have trouble working in complete silence, but having the television on is definitely not helping me (even MSNBC or CNN, I’m constantly going WAIT WHAT HAPPENED). I really, REALLY need to focus because I have to bill clients to get paid, but I’m having difficulty not going, “Hmmm, what should I make for lunch?” or “Ooooh, I could sleep in a little bit today…”

    Any advice?

    1. Becky*

      Would music or an audio book work where live news coverage wouldn’t? I often have music on when I work from home and I find it helps me. But, I don’t work from home full time.

    3. Lightly-chewed Jimmy*

      I have my best luck with things like cooking or home reno shows – they don’t require a lot of attention, but are good to occasionally look at, and tend to be short (30-60 min) and have fairly defined arcs (which help keep track of the passage of time).
      or instrumental music (no lyrics to pay attention to)

    4. MissDisplaced*

      You could try headphones. Even if at home they might help to put you in “work” mode when you put them on.
      Also, there are these widgets/apps that are like “work timers.” They’re generally set to tell you to stretch and stand up while at desk, but they may help for the opposite so that you set it for say 2 hours of work and then break.

      I like to keep the tv on when I work at home, but it’s in another room at low volume so I’m not tempted to look at it. If it’s too distracting, I would suggest music or maybe talk radio (some people are used to background voices!) again set at low volume somewhere in the house.

      1. JaneB*

        Have you tried background noise app things like the coffitivity website, which has the sounds of a coffee shop? I find it’s better than stuff with actual speaking, because I’m distractable…

  193. Anonymous Poster*

    I’m currently working with my doctors to take care of a long-standing medical issue that I neglected for years while I didn’t have adequate medical coverage (and then when I did have coverage, I was just used to the status quo). It will likely entail some surgery and at least a few weeks recovery before I could return to work.

    It will likely be next year (I wish I could get it done this year–I’ve reached my out of pocket so it would be 100% covered and I have no clue what my insurance will look like next year given the uncertainty surrounding health care in the US). Obviously FMLA would apply, and my work does offer both short term and long term disability with I think full pay for a certain number of weeks followed by half pay for a certain number of weeks. If I remember right you have to be out 2 weeks before those kick in and if you want pay for that period you have to use your PTO, otherwise it is unpaid FMLA. I know a few coworkers who have been out for surgeries/medical problems and so I know how the company handles it–it isn’t one of those benefits that you are given but they get upset if you actually use it. So, I’m not worried really about how the company will handle it…I’ve just never done anything like this before. The longest I have been gone from work at one time is 2 weeks of vacation.

    Anyone have advice/experience navigating a longer absence?

    1. Undine*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss, start by talking to her. Say you need surgery and you want to schedule it to minimize impact. Be very matter of fact — don’t ask for permission, exactly, just take the attitude this is something has to happen and you’re giving her a heads up. (Don’t sound like you are giving an ultimatum, either, but I’m guessing that you’re not as likely to err in that direction.) If you have a time frame in mind, mention it — “I was thinking after tax season but before the chocolate llama convention” — but be ready to take input if you can be flexible. Don’t expect to get it all set up right away. If scheduling in your industry is predictable, you should be able to pin down time range now or even a time now; if it’s more fluid you may have to wait until later when you have a better estimate of when all the llamas will actually be dipped in chocolate. Once that is clear, go back and say, I’m about to schedule my surgery, the doctor says these dates are open, I was leaning towards X, is that okay? Then get a date and schedule the surgery. After that, you’re committed. As you get closer determine who covers what, etc. Keep an eye on your projects/workload and think ahead for anything that will need coverage.

      My strategy is to mention things when they are far away because they seem more doable then and no one panics. Then by the time they are closer, it’s too late to start worrying.

  195. tryingToUnderstand*

    Let’s say that a big company buys other companies, and there are 2 loosely related companies, one on the west coast and one on the east coast (in the USA). The company decides that it would be better to move one of the companies so that everyone in both companies comes to work in the same building. So anyone on the one coast who wants to remain employed must move to the preferred coast.

    This does seem like a way to reduce headcount or to replace long time employees with cheaper new employees, but other than that, I’m struggling to understand what the company gains from this, since this also destroys morale and causes key people to look for other jobs.

    I haven’t come up with a lot of reasons why this could possibly be a good decision, so I’m asking here. I guess it doesn’t matter if I know, since I can’t do anything about it, but not knowing why a company would make this decision is frustrating.

    1. CAA*

      Consolidating saves the company money on facilities, insurance and duplicate overhead functions (they now only need one HR team, one payroll team, etc). It may also eliminate a nexus in one or more states, which can save on other kinds of taxes and fees.

      In the long run, it can also foster synergy between the two companies with everyone in the same building in the same timezone, which can lead to increased revenue and profit.

      Lower morale and loss of key personnel is a cost, but if the savings and increased income will be greater, then the company can see it as a good business decision.

    2. Stellaaaaa*

      It’s not about the employees. Is the new owner-company located on one of those coasts? It makes perfect sense for everyone under the same umbrella to be in the same time zone.

  196. A Different Perspective*

    Advice on talking to a coworker about inaccurate billing? I’m friendly with one of my coworkers. Earlier they asked me advice about how to bill a service. I told them what I had learned: we can bill for time making phone calls but not doing online research. From a report, it looks as if they billed for time doing online research. In general, I wonder if they might be fudging their billing. It is against our profession’s code of ethics to fudge billing.

    On one hand, since they asked me and our code of ethics says to talk to coworkers first, I wonder if I should bring it up with them. On the other hand, if it is a big problem presumably our supervisor or Quality will look closer and I don’t want to create conflict or power-trip. Any suggestions on how to proceed?

  197. JerseyGirl*

    Hi all, I have a question about asking for a raise. In our office, we have a policy that sets out that, in order to request a raise, you speak to your boss in Sep-Oct for a raise at end of the year. It depends on budgets but generally there’s a general cost of living raise of 1-2% for everyone and then they look at who deserves/has requested a merit raise. I manage a five person team, have done a good job in the 18mths since I started this job and feel I’d have a good case. My issue is that my immediate boss is incompetent and (I think) may be going through a pip at the moment. I have no confidence in him and doubt that he would fight my corner over this or anything else. Would it look really bad to go over his head to his boss (with whom I have a good relationship). Or should I speak to him and hope he actually does something with it? Would be great to get your thoughts on this.

  198. Not So NewReader*

    Tips for using the speaker phone for a small group meeting.

    I can’t give too much detail but we are a low budget operation. I had to use the phone to bring someone into a meeting. The connection was LOUSY. Finally we had to give up on the call when the phone seemed to be echoing our voices. The person on the other end of the line said we were breaking up.

    There is a corded phone and a wireless phone. I used the wireless phone, maybe the corded phone would be better? OTH, maybe just use my boss’ really good cell phone? Our phone service is cable if it matters.

    1. zora*

      If I encounter a crappy connection like that, I just hang up and try again as soon as possible. Sometimes, I try a different phone, or I just try with the same phone. Sometimes disconnecting and making the call again solves the problem. But then if it’s still a problem, yes, try the other phones, the corded one, what ever cell phones are available. You never know what will fix the problem, and honestly, I think most of the time I don’t see any logical pattern to this kind of thing.

      So, I just start troubleshooting as quickly as possible, so as to waste less time for everyone. I worked with someone who would always just keep going and then every one would have to say at least 10 times that they couldn’t hear, or it was breaking up, before they would finally give up and have everyone hang up and dial back in. And it drove me CRAZY how much time we wasted struggling to hear and not getting anything done. I have never had a phone line magically clear up on it’s own, so waiting just wastes everyone’s time.

  199. Spice & variety*

    How do I support someone to move into a bigger role and believe in their own leadership skills, when they’ve come from a background of support roles?

    I’m an Operations Manager at a utilities company and 5 months ago hired an Operations Coordinator, let’s call her Judy. Judy performs the more routine ops tasks (think project management, facilities maintenance, office management, contracts / assets register, etc), which allows me the time to focus on strategy, risk & compliance. She has no direct reports.

    In Judy’s ‘previous’ career (before taking 10 years off to raise a young family), she was employed exclusively in support roles (think Executive Assistant to C suite). I’ve changed our business focus recently and want Judy to own a major focus of our plan – let’s say she’s responsible for ensuring all department focus on delivering an exceptional Customer Experience (“CX”). This focus will cross every department.

    I know Judy is capable of stepping up to this, but she’s struggling to internalise the fact that she is a leader and someone with influence. Her work is amazing, and I value and appreciate her so much; I do tell her this all the time (not pandering or OTT, but when professionally appropriate).

    How do I get Judy to recognise her value as a leader? Only just last week when someone new to the company asked what she does she said, “I work for [Operations Manager].” She totally undermines herself! Frustrating…

    1. animaniactoo*

      Approach it as training her to be a leader and have more of an independent role. What she said was not wrong – it just wasn’t what you want her to have said as someone who is growing into the position you want her to be in.

      So talk to her about where you see her going and some key points that she should start working on now to get there. For instance, instead of saying “I work for OP”, and directing the focus back to you, she should say “I take care of XYX” and allow the focus to be on her.

      Be prepared to work with her to get there little by little. This is the kind of thing you have to build to, and let her actively grow into with the knowledge that’s what she’s working on.

  200. Not really a Waitress*

    I know this is late but…

    I quit my toxic job without anything lined up. Not completely crazy. My mom moved in with us and encouraged me to do so “Its killing you daughter!” and has my back financially in the meantime. (her widow’s portion of my dad’s pension is more than sufficient for now.)

    I gave two weeks notice. And had a clean hand off including typed instructions on all the processes I did. I have been busy catching up on things… taking my mom to doctor’s appointments, volunteering at the kids schools. I am fairly far along in the interview process for two pretty great positions. (3rd interview for one, 4th interview for the other next week.)

    As long as I get a job in October there will be no noticeable gaps on my resume. But if I go longer, how do I explain the gap. “I had to leave, those people were crazy” doesn’t sell well. Mom only moved in at the end of August so I could say that I moved my mother here from out of state and needed time off to get her settled. (Toxic job barely allowed you to take lunch let alone paid or unpaid leave) She actually ended up at the ER and in the hospital last week.

    How would you spin this?

    1. Anna Held*

      ‘I wanted to take time off for a health/family issue which has since been resolved.’

      It WAS driving you crazy and is now resolved!

    2. nep*

      Something like ‘I wanted to give myself some extra time [after leaving previous job] to tend to a family matter, which has now been resolved.’
      I think you are fine. Wishing you all the best in finding a new job — and one with a great environment.

  201. Ann O.*

    West coast time is frustrating… hopefully some people are still reading. The tl;dr is that I am seeking advice on how manage to make changing teams happen.

    Longer version: I was changed to a new team many months ago. There are a lot of identifying specifics that made this upsetting, but there are also a lot of identifying specifics that make my job particularly desirable for me. So I’ve been trying to make the situation work. But I am at BEC phase with my current manager. She is a horrible fit for me as a manager. (I’m suspicious that she’s a horrible manager in general, but she’s not an obviously toxic manager like some of y’all’s stories, so maybe it’s just a work style mismatch.)

    There is another team with whom I work closely. The manager of that team has mentioned wanting to bring me onto the team officially. We’re all a little unclear why I wasn’t placed with that team in the first place because I work much more with them than my current team. I also like working with that manager better.

    So my problem has an obvious solution, but I have no idea what the protocol is for trying to make the obvious solution a reality. Do I talk to my manager’s manager (who has responsibility over both teams)? If so, how do I frame things productively? Do I talk to the manager of Team B first? Am I obligated to talk to my manager first (which I really, REALLY do not want to do because part of why we’re a bad fit for each other is that these types of conversations have not gone well in the past… I’m not convinced my manager truly understands that I’m an actual person with motivations/ambitions/likes/dislikes of my own rather than a supporting character in her story).

    1. Bagpuss*

      I think ideally the manager of the team that wants you should ring it up with the higher manager.
      If she hasn’t done that on her own initiative then I think your starting point would be to talk to her, ask whether she would be willing to make a formal request for you to be transferred and (if necessary) for her to let you know if there are any specific reasons (budgets etc) why tha can’t be done now, and if so, when would be a good time to bring it up.

  202. Oliver*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m hoping to get your thoughts on this situation I got stuck in.

    Today, I turned a somewhat normal work emails chain, which involved my boss, into a heated debate (not heated as in swearing or calling each other names, but more like very aggressive tone)
    We had different opinions on the project, and due to stress and various other factors, at some point I snapped and got a little too aggressive. (For eg I said “this is not going to work and I’m not going to do this. If you want it done, go do it yourself, etc “.)

    Now that I got home and was able to breath/relax a bit, I realized maybe the tone was a bit too aggressive. Should I apologize ? (Without reversing my stance on the issue, because I still believe in it) how should I word it?

    1. AWall*

      I would apologise.

      Wording could be something along the lines of “I just wanted to say sorry for my tone earlier. It’s no excuse, but I’d had a stressful day and snapped. I didn’t mean to be so aggressive in my objections but I would still like to revisit x. I don’t think it’s a good idea because of y and z but would like to hear your thoughts in case I’m missing something.”

  203. Claire*

    Is there a way to combine two PDFs without using Adobe? My co-worker claims that she is able to do it without using Adobe, but I don’t know how… (She left for the day before I had the chance to ask her.)

    1. Alex*

      If you’re on OSX, open them by selecting all of them and choose openwith iPreview .

      Then you can select all from the left side panel and do Print –> Save As PDF

      Hope this helps

  204. Jessen*

    Question of the day: How do you phrase things when your boss is just flat-out wrong? I got in to an email yesterday asking why I was late doing a particular task, and stating that my lateness in performing it had caused a serious service issue. Only when I looked at the records, while my boss had the time correct, I had actually done that task the day before – which would be considered well in advance for this job. There were some time zones involved (I’m in eastern but the due date was based on Shanghai time), so it’s a bit more understandable of a mistake, but the point was I didn’t want to get an error report on my record.

    1. Alex*

      Just tell him or her the fact . DO NOT start by saying “you’re wrong” or anything to that effect. People will get defensive and anything you say after that will not be taken easily.

      The keys are
      – keep the tone neutral. (Not accusative)
      – state the fact and back it up with evidence

      For e.g., I would say

      “Hi,
      I got your email and I Just wanted to set the record straight since there might have been some misunderstanding.

      (Screen shot or copy and paste the record here if you can)

      As you can see, the task was completed yesterday, which means I was early. perhaps the confusion was stemmed from the fact that there’s a difference our time zone ?

      “

      1. Jessen*

        I tend to struggle with tone in emails (and this has to be done over email). I think that’s a lot of what I’m worried about – I’m used to the idea that saying “set the record straight” would be horribly rude and something you would never ever ever say to someone in a position of authority.

      2. nep*

        Agree. Just put it in a framework of telling facts, not pointing out someone is mistaken or wrong. Just neutral, professional, and matter-of-fact.

        1. Jessen*

          I guess I’m used to “neutral, professional, and matter-of-fact” and “telling facts that someone else in authority disagrees with” as being mutually exclusive. I know that’s not the case, but it means it’s very hard for me to figure out how to say that in a way that doesn’t sound bad to me.

          1. zora*

            I see what you’re saying.

            In my experience, I would say it something like: “Boss, I looked at the records, and I actually finished that task at X:XXam, which was X:XX pm Central Time. I was under the impression that that was before the deadline for that task, is that not correct?”

            Basically play it as slightly confused, while really you know that you are correct. But it puts it back in the boss’s court to get to be the one to say, Oh Yes, that is correct. It makes them feel like the big shot if you are asking for help, and they get to be the one to answer your question.

            But also, I worked to get out of companies where I had to work with people who had that attitude, and who would bristle if I just told them the facts. My current boss, if she ever erroneously said I did something wrong, I could just say “Oh, actually, I double checked and that was what you asked for.” and she wouldn’t bristle. She would acknowledge it was her mistake then, and tell me what she wants to change. So, my long term advice would be to get away from these people because they sound like jerks. ;o)

            1. Jessen*

              Fair enough. I think the difficulty for me is that’s the attitude my family had, more than workplaces themselves. I’m dealing with a new boss, and because of my shift I barely see him, so I don’t really know what he’s like. Everything’s done by email.

              1. nep*

                I hear you here — it is soooo easy for an email tone to come across quite differently from what’s intended.

              2. zora*

                Oh, I hear you. It is hard when you have a new boss and you haven’t quite figured out where the landmines are with them yet!

                But since you mentioned you work somewhere where error reports count against you, I would definitely try using the question method. It’s in my experience been the safest way to revisit something when I know I’m right and the other person is making the mistake.

                Good luck!!

  205. NewSupplier*

    Any of you into sales (i.e. supplies). your company creates the product and you want to sell wholesale to retailers?

    I am supposed to visit potential retailers (cold visits). [These are not retailers with whom the company already has a relationships. It’s more like Google to find a store you think would be a good fit for your brand then visit it.] and I really don’t know where to start.

    Honestly I feel bad just dropping in unannounced – I would think the most polite response I would get is a polite “gosh, thanks, leave your card”…but I don’t want to be defeatest before I start. (Plus I think my boss somehow thinks I can waltz into a store, show them their catalogues, they’ll be just amazed by our products and my great spiel about how great our company is) and they’ll be placing thousand-dollar orders. Seriously – this is how my boss thinks.

    Any tips from those who do this sort of job? Thanks?

  206. Sheena*

    After about a year of underemployment I was hired through an employment agency for an account management/tech support role, and I’ve been there a month. Today I was offered a permanent position. Answering phones is not my dream job (and neither are the higher-up client services roles) but co-workers are great, hours are great, location is perfect, and I’d get better benefits with the company than with the employment agency (plus I’m apparently good at it). The only possible downside I’m seeing is if I get complacent and stop striving to get on my dream career path or if I end up getting a dream job and leaving quickly enough that it upsets my current employer (but not sure how bad that would even be given that they can always find another temp and I would be unlikely to return to the same field). Am I missing anything?

    1. atexit8*

      I would cross the bridge about finding another job when you get to it.
      I am like you. I analyze and do a lot of what-ifs.

      What is your alternative? Not take the “permanent” job?

  207. AnonForNow*

    So I’ve got a meeting scheduled for tomorrow to talk salary and everything with people I’m looking at signing on to a project with, and if all goes well I expect to be moving forward – and I have a lot of gratitude for Alison and the commentariat here for helping me understand how to navigate all of this, even if I don’t comment often.

    But we’ve attempted to have that discussion over the group chat app (not good, I know) we’ve been using to coordinate calls and meetings, and that didn’t go very well – the problem is, I have no idea how tone came across and can’t be sure whether it’s my anxiety or a good instinct telling me that there migjt be an issue there.

    I know I’ve probably missed the active time here, but does anyone have any advice?

  208. periwinkle*

    There’s a process which is allegedly the core function of people with my job title. I know the process very well but rarely ever use it because my projects are almost all beyond the normal scope of the role. That suits me nicely because I get to do really cool stuff. And now I’ve been pulled onto a hugely high-profile initiative… where my role is to standardize this process.

    I find this very amusing. Who else here is considered the top expert in something they don’t actually do?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Because of some previous work I did, I was the resident expert on two topics for years that nobody at the company worked on, or probably will ever work on. Queen of unusable knowledge.

  209. Anon attorney*

    I suspect I’m a bit late this week, but will give it a try!

    My job frequently involves writing complicated letters to other attorneys about events which are disputed factually between our respective clients. Generally speaking, the letters are shown to the other attorney’s client which means that my client is usually concerned about “tone” and not making the dispute worse. For that reason, and also because it is essential to set out the client’s view of events accurately, I normally send the client a draft of this kind of letter for approval before I send it to the attorney.

    The issue I have is that from time to time, I will encounter a client who goes through draft letters line-by-line, changing things not because they are factually inaccurate but because he (it’s almost always a he) wants to say things differently or include information (drama) which in my opinion is irrelevant and will not help to resolve the dispute. This really puts my back up. I’m aware (as a result of therapy) that I am generally very sensitive to any situation where I think someone is undermining or disrespecting me, and to some extent this is a personal and not a professional issue. However, in the professional domain, iterating through several versions of a letter and negotiating the changes with the client in this way adds to the client’s fees and slows the process down as well as pissing me off. While these are major drawbacks, I’m also not comfortable with just sending a letter out without giving the client a opportunity to review it first. And if there is an error in it I do want to know about that – what I don’t want is for the client to rewrite my letter to make it into the letter he would have sent given that I am the one signing it. I want the client to have confidence in my judgement about what should and should not go into such a letter for it to be effective. When the client approaches things this way, it’s difficult to believe that he has this confidence, which I find undermining and irritating.

    What I really want is a way to present this review process to the client in a way that makes clear I am looking for factual confirmation and not general editing, without making the process into a referendum on whether or not the client has confidence in me (which as I say feels like the underlying issue). Does anyone have any suggestions for how I might do that appropriately?

    1. NewSupplier*

      IANAL, but could you just sent the facts you want verified in bullet points (or something) and not the entire letter? Since that is essentially what you want to verify?

    2. animaniactoo*

      You will always have clients who think they know how to do your job better than you do, or who think that doing it their way is what they are paying you for.

      I suggest adding a note when you send it that you are sending it verify that all the factual information is correct. That should head off some, but it won’t head off everyone. If they send it back edited, reply that you will “take their edits into consideration before sending the final version.” and if they argue part of being their lawyer is convincing them why it is best to let you who has the experience etc. to decide on what is best to say and how. Point out the damage their version could do.

      If they’re still pushy and of the “do what I tell you to do” type, tell them that signing your name to their version is not something you are willing to do as that represents you and how you do business. It may lose you a client or two, but it will probably help most of your clients AND YOU in the long-run to be that type of lawyer.

    3. AJennifer*

      Not the same line of business but I had a client who would ALWAYS fine things to edit/nit pick in everything I sent her, to the point that it seemed like she just did it to show she was in charge. I started sending her drafts that had deliberate typos or non-substantive errors and she would edit those instead of messing with the substance of my work. It was a bit underhanded and passive aggressive but it seemed to give her the satisfaction of correcting my work without undermining what I knew were the right and important things to communicate.

    4. Bagpuss*

      Late responding but:
      It happens.
      What I would suggest you try:
      – Make clear in your covering letter that you are looking for them to confirm whether the factual information is accurate.
      – the first time it happens with a specific client, respond and explain why the changes (especially any irrelevant information) is not helpful / relevant at this point (if appropriate, add in that you will make a note of their comments so you can reference that view / information if it becomes relevant).
      – tell them it’s costing them time and money. This can be a quick phone call where you explain that you only need them to respond to any factual information, and that if you re-draft to try to write in their style, not yours, this will take time and add to their costs. You can say something along the lines that of course if they spot a typo they should feel free to point it out, but otherwise, you only need them to let you know if the facts you’re setting out are not correct.
      -be firm. If you only make a factual, not stylistic, changes, and the client queries it, it’s actually OK to say “I didn’t make those changes, as they were about writing style rather than the substance of the letter, so it wasn’t necessary to amend the letter.
      – finally, do consider whether there is any substantive difference to the changes they want., even if they are not expressing it very clearly.

      Try not to see it as undermining or as lack of confidence. One thing which I have learned is that a surprisingly high number of people are very, very bad at assessing relevance. Part of your role as a lawyer, and part of the skill set you will have developed, is about identifying and organising the relevant bits out of the general heap of crud you get given by your client.

      Also, clients get stressed. Think of it as the client coping with his stress rather than as a lack of confidence in you, and you may find it easier to manage.

  210. char*

    I’m trying to figure out how to push back against a task that I’ve been assigned that requires specialized skills that are out of the scope of what we do at our company.

    I don’t want to get into to much detail, but basically, part of the job that our client has asked us to do, and that my manager has assigned to me, is something that would typically be done by an actuary. I am not an actuary. I do not want to be an actuary. My company does not employ any actuaries. Neither I nor, likely, anyone else at my company have the specialized knowledge to do this task well. Now, I could try my best and probably eventually come up with something passable. But it would take forever and I would be miserable and the end result would probably still be pretty flawed.

    The kicker? The client DOES employ plenty of actuaries who do this exact task on a regular basis. I don’t understand why they want us doing this at all. Usually if we need specialized data in the course of our work for a client, the client compiles the data themselves and passes it on to us.

    How do I tell my manager that I don’t think this is something we can do, and certainly not something that I feel that I can do to any acceptable standard?

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I checked into this, and it looks like it really requires some very specialized knowledge and experience. Unless there is someone here who has that – and I certainly don’t – I think that if we try to do this in-house, whatever effort we turn out will be a substandard result that would not reflect well on the company. I am very concerned that we’d be doing a disservice both to the client and ourselves.”

      Leave open the idea that your company might sub-contract it out.

  211. Chaordic One*

    New job didn’t work out and I was let go at the end of my probationary period. I really thought everything was going fine, but apparently not. It didn’t really upset me as much as I thought it would.

    Anyway, I’ve been applying for other things. I’m a finalist for a Really Good Job, but according to my inside source, they’ve tabled new hiring for the time being and probably won’t do actual interviews until November, which is a real bummer. Meanwhile, I’m thinking of registering as a temp and getting some income from that until I find out if Really Good Job will hire me or not.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Have you temped before? Is there a reason to hold off registering? It’s the kind of thing that takes a bit to setup and I think at worst you discover it’s not for you and you stop.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I have temped before, and yes, it does take a while for the temp agencies to test and evaluate you, as well as check your background so your point is taken. I don’t want to make a firm commitment to a full-time permanent job, just in case Really Good Job makes me an offer and I think it would be easy enough to get out of a temp job.

  212. Cat got my tongue*

    When applying for jobs, is there a way to express something like “I am applying for this job because I’m looking for a role where I don’t have to do much talking” without sounding like I hate people or I’m not going to get along with my coworkers or like I’m antisocial or any of the other things that it sounds like?

    I don’t want to disclose my disability in the job seeking process, but verbal communication is really hard for me. I can do some amount of it but the amount required for most jobs is unattainable, so I’m applying for jobs that don’t seem to require much talking. If you are thinking “if you can do it some then why can’t you do it all the time?” then consider that I happily run 3-4km a few times a week but I am unable to run a marathon at all, and definitely not a few times a week, and I have to take time off running to recover if I do too much.

    I want to frame it in terms of why this here job would be a good fit for me and not why I would suck at some other kind of job.

    Phrases I’m using already: I tolerate monotony well. I like working with my hands. I would rather do tangibly useful work than abstractly useful work. I like routine. I am friendly and I’m sure I will get along with the team.

  213. Perseus*

    Recently I started working as a one-on-one tutor at a small prep school. I get paid per lesson. My boss tries to ensure that my teaching time is “blocked,” so that there are no gaps in my schedule (and therefore in my income). However sometimes last-minute cancellations occur, leaving me with time to kill between lessons. My boss still pays me full rate for that time, on the condition that I use it studying teaching manuals and learning more about the curriculum (which I have been struggling to get used to, as he knows). I don’t mind doing this.

    The thing is, I live right across the street from the school! I would much rather go home and wait it out there, even forgoing the pay. My boss is adamant that I stay on the school premises.

    Is one of us being unreasonable?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Given that you have things you need to learn to make you more effective as quickly as possible, and that you were expecting not to have that time for yourself, yes. You are. That you’re struggling to get used to the curriculum is one more point against you in the idea that when you have the opportunity you would rather pass it up.

      When you’re more established, you can ask to revisit that, but for now – even if you’d be doing that studying at home – staying at the school and doing it is your sweat equity towards that.

  214. MissDisplaced*

    I think if they are willing to pay you for that “unbooked” time, then yes you need to stay on the school premises.
    My guess it that it is easier for them to pay you that way, without having a whole “well, I worked THIS hour, but NOT this hour” kind of hassle. By staying on the school property you are “working” all that time and get paid accordingly and I don’t see them as being unreasonable in this.

    But don’t you get a (unpaid) lunch hour or anything? I mean, I can see if you are there 7-8 hours you would need to go home for lunch to eat.

    1. Perseus*

      Thank you for giving me a reason to go home for at least an hour a day! In fact we are encouraged to eat meals on the premises, but not forced to; plenty of people leave to have lunch outside. I don’t mind staying at work for lunch at all (paid or otherwise) but I do mind staying at work with nothing else to do but study boring teaching manuals. Guess I need a rethink.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I’m not sure how your unbooked time falls, or if it’s possible to be scheduled mid-day so as to be an (unpaid) lunch break? But I think this might be the best, most normal approach to framing it with the school. Perhaps if you got a break midday it would help you focus?

        But I wouldn’t discount the “boring teaching manuals.” Obviously, your boss feels this is important and PART OF YOUR JOB and therefore “work” even when you don’t have students. That is not unreasonable at all. Certain parts of ALL jobs are rote or boring at times. If you do not want to do, it appears as though you don’t care/don’t want to be there. Know what I mean? Don’t be that person.

        1. Perseus*

          Got it. I’ve only been working there for six weeks after all, and in all other respects the boss has been very reasonable. Thanks for your perspective.

      2. Bagpuss*

        Also,if you went home, you’d be going home tp study the boring manuals. Maybe staying will keep you more in ‘work mode’.
        In future, you may reach a point where you are able to say “I’ve got an hour as X has cancelled – I’d like to return home to work on ‘X’, is that OK?” but I’d suggest that you wait and get more settled first, and be aware that the answer may still be no.

        1. Perseus*

          Thank you. I really like this job, and I want it to like me back. From now on I’m going to ignore the fact that I live across the street, because I guess it’s not relevant anyway (but it sure is handy!).

  215. You See*

    My position is being unionized as of Sunday. However the existing union contract expires today after 4 years. My coworker says that this just means we are working “unprotected”. WTH.

    I’ve never dealt with unions before. I don’t know what to expect.

    Maybe being unionized will address the fact that I am the second lowest paid person in my position by $12k at my university :) ?! Ayyyye.

    1. I get that*

      Depending on the terms of the contract some to all of the provisions of the current contract stay in effect. Unprotected most likely relates to disciplinary actions. This situation is not unusual.

  216. LinkedIn Job Search Question*

    I have a few questions about linkedin job searching:

    1) If I click “maybe later” to a recruiter’s message about a job opening, do you know what that means? Will it mean the recruiter can contact me later in month or another similar job opening? I have not prepard my CV yet and it is close to busy season at my current job, so I wanted to wait a little while before job searching.

    2) How is it like job searching through Linkedin Recruiter? I am thinking about trying it in the future?

    3) In Linked Recruiter’s Job Industry preference, do I choose industries I am already familiar with or any industries that I like? I know that some recruiters might want candidates with prior industry experience, but I wanted to experience new industries even without prior experience.

    4) Is it best to show my cell phone number in Linkedin Recruiter? Will recruiters prepare a phone contact info? If they call in the weekedays I am likely not able to pick up because I am working.

  217. Job Position Info Websites*

    Do you know if there is any websites that can provide information on what kinds of tasks certain job positions require?

    I wanted to find out what finance analysts, revenue coordinators do?

    A website that also provides job experience and degree requirements will also be nice.

    2. Anon anon anon*

      I don’t know, but I agree that it would be useful. Some titles, like Project Manager, can mean different things depending on the industry and type of company too. It would be good to see a breakdown of that.

      Glassdoor can be kind of a good source. It has info on titles and salaries. It would be nice if it included job descriptions too.

  218. Julia*

    Hi everyone, this is my first own topic in the open thread, but I’m really hoping to get some perspective. Sorry it’s so long.

    Last week, a classmate from grad school asked me if I could take over an interpreting job this weekend as he was busy Saturday, to which I replied I would prefer just one day and could he do Sunday? He said I should try, but he’d be available in case I am too exhausted after Saturday.

    Unfortunately, it seems like my new endometriosis pills aren’t working out as well as the old ones I can’t get here in Japan, and I have been feeling rather crummy. I went in yesterday because I had promised and found out that it wasn’t an interpreting job at all, I had to basically walk around all day and look for “foreigners” who had questions about the event, and hold up a poster to promote the fair. People were mostly nice if a little weird (I don’t want people commenting on my looks at work, and I’m not your poster white girl), but I definitely felt a little tricked.

    Last night, I asked my classmate if he could take over for Sunday due to my health, and he said he had another job, but if there wasn’t any interpreting anyhow, I should just call them in the morning if I was feeling unwell and cancel. He also apologized for putting me in this position, so I don’t blame him.

    So this morning at 9 (they wanted me to come in at 10 and I should have called earlier, but I only knew they would assemble there at 9 and wasn’t sure how early I could call people), I called the guy in charge of me at the event and apologized for not being able to make it as I was in bad health. He was pretty peeved, asked if I couldn’t send a friend, “we needed you!” (for what??) etc., and when I stood firm, he said “okay” and hung up. (Even my socially awkward former boss at my 9-5 would say “don’t worry, get well soon”!)
    I then emailed the contact person who had given me the job info, and he called me right away saying I had broken my promise and I should come in anyway. I told him that the job was not was I was promised either and that I wouldn’t jeopardize my health to go in since no one needed me to interpret. Then I excused myself and hung up.

    I’m proud of myself for standing up for my physical needs, but I’m not used to this and I feel guilty. I hope my friend won’t get in trouble now (then again, he might be better off with a different agency…) and I hope the odd-job-network in Japan doesn’t have me blacklisted now. A part of me feels like I should have gone in, but I really didn’t want to ride the train for an hour, stand there for six hours, and then ride the train back home.

    I also wonder if I’ll at least get paid for yesterday…

  219. Extra Income Question*

    I’m looking for ways to earn a little extra in addition to my main jobs. Ideas? Suggestions?

    2. Anono-me*

      I’m assuming that you don’t have a specific skill or talent that you want to monetize.

      Here are some ideas that should work for many people.

      Babysitting pays extremely well for part time work. $12-$15 an hour in the nearby metro, $10-$12 in a smaller just out of metro town.

      A friend does dog sitting through an agency and says it is a nice supplement to her regular job, although there is some wear and tear on the house.

      Lawnmowing, leaf raking and snow removal for an overwhelmed or health impacted neighbor.

      Independent Housekeeping.

      Also, I keep getting ads on this site for a plasma donation center saying that they pay several hundred dollars a month.

      Good luck.

  220. karina*

    I’m being interviewed for a marketing job and I have some marketing ideas for the company. Can I bring them up in the interview unprompted?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Proceed with extreme caution. You don’t know what went into their research and strategy, and you may be off the mark.

      1. Anon anon anon*

        Another possibility is that they’ll use your ideas without hiring you or paying you or giving you any kind of credit. Even if you’re hypothetically ok with that, it’s wise to guard against it in order to protect the value of your work in the long run. Could you mention part of the idea? Give them a teaser? I think you’re on the right track by wanting to show them how you think; you just have to do that without giving away the work that you’d be paid for.

  221. Smudge*

    Hello all! Long-time reader, first-time commenter here and probably way too late to the party for this to get seen, but here goes.

    I started a new job two months which, so far, I like and seem to be good at. My colleagues mostly seem very nice and friendly too, which is ace, and the office culture is very sociable (drinks in the kitchen on a Friday evening, recently organised a very decent summer party, etc) – all of which is something I really like, as I’m quite extroverted and was actively searching for a work environment with a good social aspect. And yet… I’m finding it really hard to make friends.

    I realise two months is not that long, but I’m dealing with a couple of roadblocks that I really don’t know how to tackle. First is my actual job. I work in a two-person team in a reasonably big law firm, which means that the vast majority of other employees are either a) lawyers, or b) secretaries. As such, if you’re a new joiner in either of those categories you kind of automatically have people who are aware of your existence and you have an idea of who to sit with at lunch. I have a related but distinctly different job, which presumably means I could theoretically sit with anyone – but that very openness actually makes it a bit awkward to even know where to start when it comes to which conversation group to approach first.

    The other problem is that I’m working in a country with two official languages, and where everyone around me is trilingual at least (Language A, Language B, and English). English is the official working language, which means I – as the only native English speaker on the team – can actually do my job. However, I’m only intermediate in Language A and speak no Language B whatsoever, so in social situations I either have to stick with people speaking Language A and come across as much, much shyer than I actually am because I can’t quite keep up, or else join whichever group is closest and be the awkward person who forces them to switch to English.

    Any tips? I really like my colleagues so far, but I’m feeling kind of isolated and for someone who’s normally very sociable I find it’s affecting my feelings about my job overall quite a lot.

    1. Colette*

      Can you pick a group (any group) and start a conversation with them, and then pick another group the next time? Since you can socialize with anyone, you may be able to try out all the groups until you find the one you click with.

    2. Traveling Teacher*

      I really like Colette’s suggestions. You can always make a little joke out of it, at first, to show that you’re aware that you’re stomping in as the English-only person. Or you can just join immediately upon entering the room, say, hey there! and just jump in, hoping that they’ll switch for your benefit. But I think that people in general do want to be accommodating; you just have to give them a shot. There’s no reason for them to switch to English unless you actually join the conversation, right? I’ve been through this a couple of times, both while increasing fluency in Language B, now learning language C as a beginner. Just try not to take it personally, and keep in mind that if they don’t immediately jump to include you, it could just be because their brains need a little time to decompress from working in English!

  222. AWall*

    What advice do people have about conducting performance reviews? I am fairly new to management and have never done one before. My boss has given me a list of questions that he says to send to my assistant beforehand to get her to fill out and use her answers as a bouncing point for discussions. But what else should I be doing, if anything?

    1. Colette*

      If your employees work with other people, contact them to get feedback. Also review what you’ve seen and consider whether there are any trends (good or bad).

      1. AWall*

        Thanks Colette. I will get in contact with some of the people she has contact with…are there specific questions I should be asking of them or should I be getting more of a general ‘what do you think of her work’?

        1. Bagpuss*

          I’ start with that and then consider asking “is there a particular area where you feel she excels?” and “is there anything specific where yo u feel she could improve?”

          You can also ask her those questions, at the appraisal, if they are not already on the list your boss has given you.

          You could also ask about her hopes/aspirations for the future – how does she see herself progressing, whether there is specific training or qualifications she would like to undertake, whether there is a particular part of her job she’d like to expand – you can make clear that you can’t promise anything but want to know where she sees her role going, so that you can bear that in mind in considering what tasks to assign her, how to allocate work etc.

          1. AWall*

            Thanks Bagpuss, I definitely want this to be a two-way conversation so those are some great starting points

  223. Gina Linetti*

    I’ve been looking for work for close to a year and a half. I do mostly admin assistant/office manager type work, and also bookkeeping. My experience in both goes back twenty years, though my job history is a bit spotty. (I’ve spent the past eight years freelancing; my last full time job ended in 2004.)

    Needless to say, finding even part-time work has been difficult. (I did a temp assignment writing and editing training materials for a local insurance company last year, but have had no bites from them since, despite my contacting them regularly.) I managed to land a part-time position with a local bookkeeping service, but the duties are entry-level, and the pay reflects that. I really like my boss, but she’s aware that this is only a stopgap, and I’m still out there looking.

    The thing is… after a year and a half of pounding the pavement, it’s become clear that my age and physical problems (I have bilateral arthritis in my knees, which makes sitting down and getting up out of chairs tricky) are scaring away potential employers. I can’t tell you how many times employers seemed so eager to meet with me, only to have their faces fall when I walk into their office. (Yes, this actually happened – more than once.) Oh, they’re polite enough, but I can tell they’re looking at me and seeing “LIABILITY” emblazoned on my forehead.

    *siiiigh*

    Is there anything I can do to mitigate these negatives? Obviously, I can’t turn back the clock, but is there any way to assure potential employers that I’m not a lawsuit waiting to happen?

    1. Bagpuss*

      Do you currently say anything?
      It might be that if you bring up the subject, early in the interview when they have just seen you walk in, you can explicitly reassure them and then move on to the .meat’ of the interview.

      Obviously I don’t know specifically how your condition affects you, but saying something like “As you’ll have noticed, I do use a stick / have a limp / as appropriate. It’s due to arthritic knees. I’m slower than most in getting up or down but it doesn’t impact my capacity to work and I wouldn’t require any specific accommodations / the only accommodation I need is a chair with arms so I can steady myself as I getup / as appropriate”

  224. monikoa*

    I want to include language sample on my marketing portfolio. Any topic suggestions? Should it be about me or the field?

  225. fabiola80*

    I have been in an administrative position 11 years, and recently was offered and accepted a new position with a new company. I settled on a start date with the new company. I was set to give notice to my current position this morning, but the administrative assistant I work hand-in-hand with suffered a family tragedy and informed us at 5am this morning that she will be out indefinitely. (It looks like two weeks at the least.)

    Is it poor form to go back to my new employer and ask to change my start date by a few days to accommodate this unforeseen circumstance? I don’t want to leave my current employer (who I love very much, the only reason I’m leaving is due to commute issues) in a poor spot. If it matters, the new position is a brand new role, not an existing role with an incumbent.

    1. c*

      I asked to push back my start date at my current job, and it’s one of those things that I look back on and wish I hadn’t done. My new boss was very gracious about it, but now that I know her better, I am sure it was an annoyance.
      Your situation is different from mine in several ways (reason for wanting to stay is an unforeseen circumstance, and you are entering a brand-new role rather than filling an existing one). However, I would suggest thinking carefully about how much value you can provide to your current employer by staying an extra week or two. I couldn’t take on any new projects, so extending my notice period really just prolonged the time I had to wrap up existing ones. Also, because you don’t know for sure how long your coworker will be gone, you might be putting yourself in a tough spot by suggesting that your last day is flexible.
      Leave really good training documentation and if possible, recommend someone who might be a good replacement. Do as much as you can while you are there, but don’t risk starting off on the wrong foot at the new job.

  226. YetAnotherFed*

    Help me use my words so I can tell the glassbowl in the office next to me to stop screaming when he’s on teleconference/video conference. I’m lucky enough to be in an agency where we get our own offices after a certain level. However, our building was built by the lowest bidder and thus I can hear not only the men on either side of me but I can even hear the supervisor a few offices down the hall from me. Left hand neighbor has a position where he does a LOT of teleconferencing/video conferencing. I can hear left hand neighbor screaming at the other people on the phone at least once or twice a day. I can’t concentrate on getting my own work done when he’s carrying on like that, and I’m ready to snap. Help me come up with a calm and clear script to follow so I can go all Spock-mode on his screaming ass!

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