Ep 339: What Perfect Looks Like for Accessibility W/ Dave

Welcome to the Workology Podcast, a podcast for the disruptive workplace leader. Join host Jessica Miller-Merrell, founder of Workology.com as she sits down and gets to the bottom of trends, tools, and case studies for the business leader, HR, and recruiting professional who is tired of the status quo. Now here’s Jessica with this episode of Workology.

Episode 339: What Perfect Looks Like for Accessibility With Dave Dame, Director of Accessibility at Microsoft (@DDame)

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:00:26.72] This episode of the Workology Podcast is sponsored by Upskill HR and Ace the HR Exam. Now, this particular episode is part of a series powered by the Partnership on Inclusive Apprenticeship, or PIA. PIA is funded by the U.S. Department of Labor’s Office of Disability Employment Policy, or ODEP. PIA collaborates with employers and apprenticeship programs to help meet employer talent needs and enable people with disabilities to benefit from apprenticeships that increase their opportunities for lifelong access to high growth, high demand jobs. Today, we are joined by Dave Dame. He’s the Director of Accessibility at Microsoft. Dave is a seasoned technology executive who was passionate about designing and developing hardware and software for users of all abilities. He has extensive experience in design thinking, product management, and agile delivery. Dave is a champion for accessibility and builds high-performing teams, fostering cognitive diversity and inclusion. Dave, welcome to the Workology Podcast.

Dave Dame: [00:01:29.66] Thank you for having me today.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:01:32.21] Can you talk to us about your background in technology and why and when you began working in the accessibility space?

Dave Dame: [00:01:38.87] For sure. So I was really introduced to technology as an early age. For the listeners on the podcast, I was born with cerebral palsy, and in 1971 my parents were told, Dave may not live past 12. Dave may not be able to speak clearly, if at all. And even if he does, don’t expect much because there’s not much in this world somebody like Dave can do. And unfortunately, they advised my parents to put me in an institution so that way I wouldn’t be a burden. I would enjoy whatever time I have left. But fortunately for me, I had parents that didn’t want to make that one decision that was going to really affect the rest of my life. And I always like to say I was born in the perfect time because I was born before disability rights existed and there was, there was no real technology available for really enabling with somebody with a disability could do. But as I started getting older, disability rights came in and technology became the new platform that was going to enable people. I always like to say it’s not my cerebral palsy that limits me rather than the environment, to be able to accommodate my cerebral palsy is what limits me. And technology was the platform that reduced that mismatch because I use technology to be able to do my schoolwork and to be able to get the things that previous generations of people with disabilities do not have the fortune of doing that. So technology became my enabler to really be able to do things. And then, you know, when I was in my last year of high school, I had really good grades in business and technology, and I didn’t know which I wanted to do.

Dave Dame: [00:03:36.38] And my dad walked down the stairs and said, Dave, let’s be honest with you being in a wheelchair, you’re not going to be a fireman, police officer, or a construction worker. But you know what else you’re not going to be? Living under my roof for free the rest of your life. So I chose technology, was an engineer, became a product manager, and I led a lot of organizations in delivering technology products to users and customers to really help enable them, even though they didn’t have the disability. Technology was the great enabler of people of all abilities. So as I progressed through my career, you know, I had to really break a lot of social norms. I had to really shake up organizations that weren’t used to hiring somebody in a wheelchair. They needed extra things. And I really, the end of my last, my last job I was the Vice President of a major bank. And I thought to myself, growing up, I was always wondering what I wanted to be when I grew up, and after successfully being able to work at a number of tech companies, delivering a lot of products to market, I started thinking about how do I want to leave the world when I’m no longer here? So the opportunity came to join Microsoft and the accessibility space so I can have my shared lived experience of accessibility. My deep, extensive work experience of technology in the background and leadership to really help other people like me achieve what I have, hopefully with a lot less effort. So I know that was a long description, but that was my journey into technology and now accessility.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:05:27.94] Well, thank you for sharing your story, and I think it’s so important for you to kind of set the stage as we continue on in this podcast. When you stepped into your role at Microsoft as the director of accessibility, what has been your primary goal, and how does your extensive background in Agile and design thinking fit into that role now?

Dave Dame: [00:05:50.02] Good question. So my primary goal is I’ve been there for a little under a year. I want Microsoft to be the chosen technology of people with disabilities. The reason why I say chosen technology, Jessica, is it’s got to be simply more than they can just simply use the technology. I want to make sure we create a delightful experience where they choose the technology and we really enable them in new ways. And it was funny when I joined Microsoft, I really thought I would have to leave my background as, you know, Agile and design thinking behind me as I moved into this accessibility space. But I found using Agile, which is really a great technique to introduce change and design thinking of what can be possible? What paths are we trying to solve? Are those two tools that I’m leaning heavy on as we really try to influence change the hearts and minds to make accessibility of forward thought and how we design hardware and software, which is, which is really great that I get to leverage that, as well as continually learning and intervening on the accessibility space for both visible disabilities and invisible disabilities.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:07:16.51] I love that and I have been implementing over the last couple of years more Agile and design thinking and to my team and, and really just the work that we do. And it is really, I think, such a great way to help ensure that the technology or your product or service is in alignment with what the market really needs. And like you said, not because it’s the only choice, but because they want to choose it because it has the right features and benefits. And it is the usability is in line with what your customer wants.

Dave Dame: [00:07:48.94] Well, the beauty of Agile too is it really gets you out of the way of what does perfect look like. Because people always ask, What does perfect look like in your product? What does perfect look like in accessibility? And to be honest, I don’t know what perfect looks like, but I do know what better looks like. In Agile is that incremental thing of continuously looking to be better, but still being brave enough to ship what you have to continually learn what the community of people with disability needs and help people with non-disabilities actually use accessibility features to enable them.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:08:28.30] I love that. I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about what accessibility looks like for someone who has a motor impairment?

Dave Dame: [00:08:37.69] That’s a great question. What, what it looks like for somebody with a motor impairment is we take for granted right when we go into the office before we start our day, I’m sure, Jessica, you open up your laptop unconsciously. Adjust your mouse, adjust your desk space, and can just naturally start going through your day. As somebody with a dis, motor impairment, getting our laptop out of our bag is a huge effort. Opening the screen is a huge effort. Heck, even getting to work is a huge coordination effort. So that’s why I found people with disabilities and motor disabilities like me were really good at planning. But all that work I told you about before I start my day is a huge effort that people that don’t have motor disabilities get the luxury of taking for granted. It’s a huge effort to open and close my screen. It’s a huge effort to plug the power cord in and get the mouse. So think about that extra effort somebody with a motor impairment needs to do before they even begin doing what they need to do for their job. And it’s, I could give you a lot of, and I like to call that the visible tax people with disabilities pay, which is the extra effort and consideration needed that other people simply get to take for granted.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:10:09.66] This is an important conversation to have, and in the prep call, you and I were even talking about getting ready for your day, but also when you’re traveling, it can be really involved. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dave Dame: [00:10:25.38] Yeah. So when I travel, at home I have, I’m married, but I have a personal support worker that comes in the morning, that comes in the morning, gets me out of bed, showers, dresses me, and gets me all ready for work. I don’t wake up this beautiful. It takes a lot of effort. And when I travel, I get a firsthand look at the organization used to, Hey, when I travel for work, I need to bring this support worker, which a lot of companies don’t have that in their policy because the majority of the workforce doesn’t need to consider that. So first, they got to get it into policy of they cover the support worker salary, hotel, food accommodations so they can travel, travel with you to do the job. But it’s all that effort I need to do. And I think in our talk to our pre-cut, we’re talking about the first time I had to use a support worker when I went away for university, and that was a real interesting moment for me as a leader where I really got to understand what vulnerability is. Because think about it, Jessica, I need a perfect stranger. I interview them, I hire them.

Dave Dame: [00:11:45.00] And within two or three days, I have to be completely naked in front of this person as they shower me, dress me. So that vulnerability has really helped me as a leader, be empathetic to my team growing staff because everybody faces uncomfortability. That’s just my example. I’m sure others might, but it’s that huge effort we need to do before we leave the door to go to work. It’s a whole bunch of coordination, a whole bunch of trust, and I have to do on-the-job training right of, this is how you get Dave out of bed. This is how you shower Dave. This is how you dress Dave. Dave is a little bit of a princess, so he likes to be dressed just right and, you know, to learn not only what I need to have done, but my nuances we all have, right? You have a specific way you like your shirts to be on, and think about when you got to explicitly describe that to someone on a regular basis. It really helps you articulate things in a greater detail that most people get to do on autopilot when they get out of bed every morning.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:13:01.01] This conversation is so valuable because if you are an HR leader and maybe you haven’t yet hired someone or it’s been a while since you’ve hired somebody with a motor impairment, Dave is bringing up really great things for us to be thinking about in terms of getting our policies in order, but then planning for the additional resources that someone might need in our organization. And not only does Dave need to have someone there to help support him. Imagine the conversation. I mean, I know Dave, you know that you have to have with your HR team to say, Hey, I need these things so that I can be able to do my job.

Dave Dame: [00:13:43.43] And that’s a real difficult conversation, Jessica, because younger in my career, I didn’t feel safe to ask that because I don’t want it to be a deterrent, whether they hire me or not. Right? Because if companies aren’t used to doing that, I don’t know if I feel safe, and today now I do after, you know, I told you, I’m over 50, so I’ve had to, you know, know what it’s like to struggle in silence versus being able to be an advocate for myself. But I think HR leaders need to be the first ones to ask, How can I help? How can I help you bring all your skills and talents to be able to do the role? Because I think a lot of companies know how to hire probably an individual contributor. I think they know how to onboard them. But it’s a, it’s another thing to continuously reevaluate as they progress through the organization and get into different roles that might be leadership, but has to have you relook at what is the now the new supporting structure needed to support them in that new role.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:15:00.08] Such an important consideration and conversation and HR leaders, we want to make sure that, that our employees do feel comfortable even if they’re one day in, 20 years in, that they are able to talk to someone in the organization and let them know the types of accommodations that they need in order to be successful. I felt like you were going to say something. Did you want to add?

Dave Dame: [00:15:25.40] Yeah, I was going to add Jessica. The conversation needs to be continuous. You don’t just do it on onboarding. It’s got to be a regular conversation, which you should do for all employees, but specifically, those with the disability because even though like somebody with a visible disability, it’s apparent. But there’s even people that aren’t disabled that have challenges, maybe with childcare, maybe with diabetes, maybe with things, and understanding each employee-specific needs and how the organization can support them takes away that burden or that anxiety they feel when they feel they can’t share any specific need they have to be able to bring their full self to work.

Break: [00:16:15.50] Let’s take a reset. This is Jessica Miller-Merrell and you were listening to the Workology Podcast, sponsored by Upskill HR and Ace the HR Exam. Today, we are talking with Dave Dame. He’s the Director of Accessibility at Microsoft. This podcast is part of a series powered by the Partnership on Inclusive Apprenticeship, or PIA.

Break: [00:16:35.69] This episode of the Workology Podcast is part of a new podcast series powered by the Partnership on Inclusive Apprenticeship, or PIA. PIA is funded by the U.S. Department of Labor’s Office of Disability Employment Policy, ODEP. ODEP launched PIA to ensure all apprenticeship programs are inclusive and accessible to people with disabilities. PIA collaborates with employers and apprenticeship programs to help meet employer talent needs and enable people with disabilities to benefit from apprenticeships that increase their opportunities for lifelong access to high-growth, high-demand jobs.

Giving People With Disabilities Confidence at Work Through Apprenticeships

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:17:13.13] I want to switch gears a little bit and kind of move into some conversations around apprenticeships, so from your perspective, how can apprenticeship support people with disabilities in advancing their careers?

Dave Dame: [00:17:26.33] Apprenticeships can really help give people with disabilities work experience and really get them to know what it’s like to navigate the work environment, whether it’s traditional being in the, in the office on-site, as well as maybe if they’re remote workers, how do they build connections, build relationships and really give them the confidence that, you know, they can be employable and their skills are valued and they can ask for accommodations, right? I think apprenticeship gives them the early exposure of what that’s like. What it’s like to have the work responsibility needed. And it also gives the employers that unique skill set that people with disabilities develop just to navigate their complex life, that the organization can take benefit of that most people at an early age or whenever they progress through don’t usually have to their non, to their able-bodied partner or beside them. Or a colleague, I should say sorry.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:18:40.75] That’s OK. Another thing I wanted to ask, and I feel like you’ve answered this from your own perspective, but in, in the event you wanted to add, how do you feel like companies can benefit from hiring employees and/or apprentices who have disabilities? What’s the benefit for that organization?

Dave Dame: [00:19:00.61] Well, I think the benefit is we’re hearing about the great resignation, right? And, and the big talent shortages and the strong competition for talent. In today’s post-pandemic world, where we’ve proven that hybrid and remote work can exist, I think now there’s talent pools that organizations didn’t get to utilize because there was a lot of people with disabilities that either live geographically far away from major cities or the, the logistics needed or required to coordinate even getting into the office was almost a barrier of entry for them, where now they, they live in there, like where they live, it’s usually pretty accessible. So now we got that environment that they can feel comfortable and safe, and now they can do their work in the most comforting environment to really be able to bring their full talents and where organizations benefit. They get this talent that they didn’t have. And what I’ve learned is for me and watching others, you really change the culture within your organization because people become more empathetic and not in a way of I feel for what they go through, but they get to really build their soft skills where it’s not always a competition. How do we support each other to achieve more? And for me, when my disability gave me the competitive advantage as a change agent, my whole life was introducing change, whether it was to be the first disabled person in my local school or whatever or finding new and different ways to do things.

Dave Dame: [00:20:48.94] Not that it was a change agent before the term existed, but I always had to look for new ways that made it easier and people process and tools to do that. But I don’t think I would have built that skill set if I didn’t have the disability. So that’s just my story. But I know other people with disabilities that they developed other skills that the organization can take advantage of. Where I work, once we hired someone that was deaf. And, you know, it was funny of how do we prepare the team? How do we get them in it? And we took an Agile approach by just dropping this person on the team and the team all self-organized to go, Yes, I’ll take notes for this person, whoever speaking and meeting so that way they can follow. But the way they work on how to help him make a part of the team, I was really taken back where this team was building a tighter knit team than there are other teams that they were having non-disabled people and just the way they got things done and delivered because they made sure they could utilize his talent because he was a rock star security programmer. But the way they found different ways to communicate, collaborate and work with each other made them more of a high-performing team than a team that didn’t have to re-imagine how to collaborate and communicate for someone without those impairments.

Dave Dame: [00:22:20.02] So I think the organization benefits by being a better community right of knowing, you know what? How do we all succeed in winning? How do we make it feel safe to show their vulnerability? I remember I had this young guy reporting to me and he was a rock star by any means, and he always struggled with dyslexia. But his dad was like, Well, I don’t think you have it, just struggle through it. And by him, seeing how my disability didn’t hold me back where I flourished with it gave him the confidence to, to address his dyslexia, so then he could have easier ways of doing things, finding tools to better enable them. So it really helps bring humanity in the whole workplace. Plus, you got top talent. Plus you have a real diverse set of employees because your customer base or your user base should be reflective of those people that build or create your products and services. So when you have those injected in the teams, you’re better understanding of the customers you’re building product and services for that might be different than the people that are around your normal life. So it really gives a diversity of thought in product making. So we build the right global products to accommodate a diverse set of customers that exist. So I think by having it local and close, you truly understand what it means to create a global product to increase your sales and user base.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:24:03.66] I love that and thank you for, for sharing. I love hearing how your team really came together and helped drive the engagement and productivity and retention efforts, not just for that new employee who was hearing impaired, but for everyone on the team.

Dave Dame: [00:24:23.01] Exactly, right. It really, it really upskilled the rest of the team because they had to learn new skills. They had to learn creativity. They really became, became better communicators, not just at what they say, but their body language and how do they ensure that they’re really, like, learning how to communicate so they get the answers they need because he was an expert. So he really helped bring the rest of the team up with his deep programming knowledge and security.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:24:56.67] On the prep call, we talked a lot about onboarding and the importance of onboarding employees. So I want to just take a moment and have you share a little bit about accessibility and why that is so important for the employee as they onboard into the organization.

Dave Dame: [00:25:16.27] Sure, so I’ve been hired on a lot of teams. However, I have not always felt that I was part of the team. And I hope the listeners can understand that distinction. Just because I was hired on the team, I did not always feel that I belonged with the team. So when you’re onboarding somebody with a disability, it’s important to ensure you’re really making it inclusive for them to really be able to participate in that team, building exercise to make them part of the team. Like, I’ve been hired where the team-building activity to get to know me was ax throwing, and with my impaired heads and cerebral palsy spasms. You don’t want me throwing an ax because I don’t know where it’s going to go. So I wasn’t included in those activities or even if you go on a team lunch, a lot of these new restaurants have like benchtop tables that are really high that I can’t be seen because my head is under the table and not up on the stools eating. So I think when you’re onboarding someone, you have to really think about how are you going to introduce them to the team? What team-building exercises are you going to do and how do you get the team, How do you give them enough information where they’re not nervous, but enough for them to figure out themselves where they take the initiative and find better ways of working than you can predict? So it’s kind of doing bad at the team to get them onboarding.

Dave Dame: [00:26:56.58] But like what we said earlier, Jessica. Onboarding cannot stop on the day someone’s hired. We need to continuously think about re-onboarding them as they progress into different roles or to progress higher up in the organization to really, how do we educate their federal leadership group to, you know, to be used to people with disabilities? How do we look at our policies for travel? I’ll give you a simple example. When I was an executive, meetings kept being changed all the time at the last minute. And sometimes they were at hours that were outside the work hours. My particular need is I meet my support worker maybe a couple times during the day to get what I need done. And when those meetings were moved on days I needed to be, on hours I needed to be with my support worker, I can never be able to attend those meetings. And the silly thing was, as I didn’t say anything. You would have thought after all these years of advocating for myself, but I still get that thing of why should I introduce my challenge to the rest of the leadership team? That’s my problem. And then after a while, I kept missing on key decisions that I should have weighed in on. So then I emailed my boss and all my peers and said, Buck, whenever meetings are moved at the last minute during these timeframes, sadly, I can’t reorganize my support care.

Dave Dame: [00:28:33.51] So can we keep any meeting changes within these core hours? And then something surprised me, Jessica. I got a reply, a single reply from one of my female colleagues, and she said, Thank you, Dave. I was struggling, rearranging my childcare. Every time they moved in on hours, I was supposed to pick them up. I learned that advocating for my specific need as somebody with a disability also helped others that had similar challenges that might not be around disability. So it’s kind of continuously educating as the person progresses in their career, the new realm of how things have to change in the way we set up meetings in the way we do a lot of policies right of off-sites and how do we make sure they’re accessible, there is a leadership of site? Does this person need to bring a helper with them? Does the organization understand they’re going to get invoices for a support worker that they’re not used to processing and paying? So it’s a whole relooking at the organization and continuously making it inclusive as they progress all the way up. We can’t assume we’ll hire them and they’ll just stay where they’re at. We’re all motivated. We all want to progress in our careers. The organizations that have done it well, Jessica, continuously reaches out to me and says, We’ll figure this out. We don’t know yet how to do it, but working with you, we’re going to really figure out how to do that.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:30:15.49] This is such a great story and example. It’s constant communication and learning and being flexible and being open to hearing that feedback, I think is, is so critical. And as you’re saying, it’s not always like the schedule change, it’s not always just impacting a person with disability, it impacts people in different ways and their own personal experiences.

Dave Dame: [00:30:44.17] And I want to emphasize, as you’re trying to figure this out, you might not have them all figured out at first. But even if you think you haven’t figured out, work with the person with the disability to understand their specific need. Every disability has a different, a different severity, a different uniqueness and complexity. And what we do in the product world is we like to say we design with people with disabilities, not for them, meaning we don’t try to pretend to be the experts, even though we might have representatives. We really try to work with them to understand the finer details of an enhanced experience to understand where standards leave off but the delightfulness can still be tailored and exist. So I really encourage each our professionals to work with the individual and not just assume we can get it out of a textbook or go to a conference and simply get that knowledge. You need to make sure it’s personalized for the individual because they’re going to have very unique needs that the standards fall short on.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:31:59.41] I want to go back to the tech side, which is kind of where we began. And, you know, as your work as the director of accessibility for Microsoft, when we think about tech, what are primary things employers need to consider as they make their own apprenticeship programs accessible?

Dave Dame: [00:32:19.08] Well, from technology, they got to think about their internal onboarding tools like their expense management tools or booking vacation, or is their software accessible compliant meaning? Can somebody with a disability use those? Can they use their digital productivity platform? So I’m going to use Office as an example. We really try to make sure that all of our applications are accessible to enable people with disabilities in the workplace. So make sure the tools you use for productivity are fully accessible compliant. And what they also need to learn is maybe how to design presentations for people that are blind? How do they conduct remote meetings for people that might be deaf or hard hearing? Are they turning on captions? Are they using technology in this? Are their employees aware of this technology that they can use to enable them, right? Like, there’s been things like now you can record Zoom calls, now you can record teams calls. So instead of trying to take notes in meetings, I can record a meeting and have the transcript to have all my notes like that. So make sure your digital platform is going to be built with accessibility so your employees have to think about a lot less accommodations needed because you’re building an inclusive technology to do that. And in your hardware, look for those vendors that are designing accessibility into their hardware and how they accessorize it because it’s a relationship between the hardware, the software, and the accessories that can not only enable people with disabilities, but our productivity enhancements for those that don’t. Because like I use immersive reader to play my blog post. Not that I have a problem seeing, but I love playing, I love playing blogs while I’m doing my email. So that way, I can hear and catch up and keep up to date on things while I’m doing other things. So what is built for accessibility for some are actually great productivity enhancers for others, like voice to text, so ensure you’re building in from square one. The accessibility platform that inclusion can be built on, built on above.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:34:56.55] Such great advice, and I love my audio books, so I don’t, or my audio news. I love finding out what’s going on and I don’t have to read it or watch it. So there’s a lot of benefits to different accessibility tools that we take for granted that, that those of us use every single day

Dave Dame: [00:35:16.41] And make sure you burn them, right? Because like when I show my peers that aren’t disabled, they love using that stuff too. Like when my wife wears glasses and I’ve seen her struggle finding the pointer, I just showed her how to increase the size of her pointer and have it changed the color contrast if you scroll. She’s like, Wow, I didn’t know that was there. And you know, and it’s just trying to learn what you have available to show those options because it’s going to help all your employees.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:35:49.78] Agreed, well, Dave, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us, I wanted to ask where can people go to learn more about you and the work that you do?

Dave Dame: [00:35:58.78] Sure. Well, obviously you can take me on LinkedIn. I try to share a lot. So my LinkedIn is David Dame. My Twitter is @DDame. But, but check out Microsoft Accessibility. We have a lot of free collateral we, we offer because we love sharing our knowledge because if you look at Microsoft’s overall accessibility strategy is we want to close the disability divide. So we really want to make sure people with disabilities are incorporated in the workplace to help the economy. So we’re doing a lot of great material and learnings that we’ve learned and sharing it for free for the rest of the world to be able to benefit on what is inclusive hiring, what is assistive technology. Because we believe if we can share the knowledge to rise the tides, it’s going to float all boats. So really check that out. And I think that’s where you can learn to be more inclusive HR group, you can learn what is possible and available and please follow me. I share, you know, my struggles, what I’ve learned, and what’s going on in the industry. And selfishly, I get to learn from all of you too, because we’re really in a world of knowledge and the more we can really share it, the better workplaces we create for everybody.

Jessica Miller-Merrell: [00:37:28.79] Agreed, well, we’ll link to all Dave’s social media, the Microsoft Accessibility website and some other resources that I would encourage you to check out in the podcast show notes over at Workology.com. So thanks again, Dave. I appreciate your time.

Dave Dame: [00:37:43.73] Thank you for having me.

Closing: [00:37:45.86] I appreciate Dave sharing his experiences with us today on the Workology Podcast. So many good nuggets of wisdom around inclusion, accessibility, retention, hiring, training, onboarding, and more. Whether it is hiring and employing people with disabilities, which we should, or just making your workplace more inclusive and engaged and have less turnover, which we all need. Thank you to PIA for powering this apprenticeship series on the Workology podcast, and our podcast sponsor Ace the HR Exam and Upskill HR.

Closing: [00:38:20.36] Personal and professional development is essential for successful HR leaders. Join Upskill HR to access live training, community, and over one hundred on-demand courses for the dynamic leader. HR recert credits available. Visit UpskillHR.com for more.

Closing: [00:38:35.84] This podcast is for the disruptive workplace leader who’s tired of the status quo. My name is Jessica Miller-Merrell, and until next time you can visit Workology.com to listen to all our Workology Podcast episodes.

Connect with Dave Dame.